It's under threat, we're getting behind the campaign to save live music, are you? [Archive]

The Black Adder

30-12-2014, 04:12

I have to agree with it in a way and don't in another. We live next to a pub and over the last 2 years they have been having bands on. Drums, amps etc. The problem arises is when a venue is simply not built for live loud music. Like in our case, the pub is over 200 years old, it's in a conservation area so all the windows are plate glass and they can only place a band in the area closest to our house, next to a large window.

The problem is this. Live music MUST keep going BUT venues need to be adequately tested for noise leakage (airborne noise) as well was impact noise. You can't say that a venue is fine for live amplified music when it's not been treated for sound.

If landlords took some care and respect for noise levels then the petition wouldn't be happening. But the majority don't care or have any respect.

Now, if the venue is deemed unfit for live amplified music then acoustic sets are much better and you don't need a licence for acoustic sets either. So where do we go from here?

A blanket ban is a bit stupid so a much more rigorous scheme must be introduced that let the closest people to the venue have equal rights. Right now the landlord has more rights in this case which is wrong.

Oldpinkman

30-12-2014, 08:25

The link isn't working on my phone but I'll revisit on a desktop. We had the same issue with my local pub. The live music was just one night a week, until no later than 11 (maybe unfortunate that the night was a Sunday). Someone moved in next door, and the music stopped. Actually a double tragedy because the pubs trade has turned down dramatically as a result of losing the Sunday crowd, and has lost its atmosphere and gone the gastro way.
It's like people who buy a cheap house on a dangerous main road and then campaign for a by-pass or speed bumps because they are worried about their children playing :doh:

The Black Adder

30-12-2014, 08:35

My friend works for Marstons brewery and the say that pubs have to change to gastro pubs in order to survive. Most of the percentage of their beer is sold by supermarkets, has been for years and it's increasing rapidly. Pubs only account for a very small percentage of total sales these days.

Live music is a pull but people nearby have to live with it so landlords need to adapt, embrace change and respect others who live nearby.

PaulStewart

30-12-2014, 08:47

Oldpinkman

31-12-2014, 11:58

signed and shared on facebook. The link doesn't work Paul, you have to copy and paste it into a browser (well I did). Good cause - obvious common sense logic. :cool:

lurcher

31-12-2014, 14:53

The petition is about established venues where new neughbours, who moved in knowing there was a venue nearby, demand the venue be prevented from playing music. I'm all for providing soundproffing when deemed necessary, but live music is the heart and soul of our great musical cultre and must be protected

The problem goes beyond that. Its not just new neighbours complaining, its pubs having problems when buildings nearby are converted from office/retail to residential and then the new residents complain. The problem in that case is the original change of use. Thats killed or restricted several historic music venues in Leeds this year (2014)

Macca

31-12-2014, 15:13

Seems to me that if the venue was there before the housing then it should be allowed to continue, given that the residents will have bought/rented their property with the knowledge that there was a music venue near by. You wouldn't buy a house with a railway line at the bottom of the garden then complain to Network Rail that the trains are keeping you awake.

Actually I'm sure some people have done just that but there comes a point where you just have to ignore idiots like that.

Spectral Morn

31-12-2014, 16:02

Surely the solution is simple, turn the volume down. Every gig I go to I wear earplugs (the foam type shot gun users wear) to protect my hearing but also to allow me to hear what the band are doing, excessive volume is a problem re sound quality in a live situation. Turn it down is a better option allround in my view.

and Paul the link still isn't working.

Regards Neil

lurcher

31-12-2014, 16:53

Turn it down is a better option allround in my view.

Well, one pub that still has live music in Leeds has a restriction on their beer garden. They can't use it after 9 because of the noise. No music, no band, just people drinking and talking.

Its not only an issue with Motorhead levels of sound. There is also a minimum volume you can practically play at when using a drum kit. So "turn it down" only goes so far. Live music I have heard over the last 10 years has all been at a much lower level than in the 70's. H&S rules, better quality PA's and 30W guitar amps have all contributed towards that.

PaulStewart

31-12-2014, 19:19

Ninanina

31-12-2014, 20:38

Do I like live music? of course I do, but would I want it on my doorstep? no, of course not..! :)

karma67

31-12-2014, 20:56

what she said.

walpurgis

31-12-2014, 20:59

He?

(you really ought to have your name shown Bev)

Ninanina

31-12-2014, 21:06

He?

(you really ought to have your name shown Bev)

:doh:

Macca

31-12-2014, 21:44

Actually if it was on my doorstep (and it used to be) I'd be much more likely to go and see it. Having said that loud noises have never kept me awake. The only thing that does that is a ticking clock. Can't abide them.

PaulStewart

01-01-2015, 16:49

Do I like live music? of course I do, but would I want it on my doorstep? no, of course not..! :)

Bev forgive me but thats not the point, would you think it fair to move to a house near a known music venue that has been enjoyed by many over the years, whose neighbours see it as an asset to the area and the capaign to get the music stopped? If you move in knowing there is a venue, surely it's unfair to change what existing locals enjoy?

The Black Adder

02-01-2015, 08:12

If an existing venue has loud music then it's up to the local authorities to make sure that nearby housing is aware of this. This should be either through leafleting or mailshots. If someone moves in to the area close to the venue, they should be made aware of it.

Loud music is necessary at large venues but if the venue is enclosed then it should be treated regardless. This (if done properly) should not harm the acoustics much if that is an issue.

I too have signed the petition. I have grown up around bands and love my music loud too so I think local councils should spend some money and do something right for once and keep people informed about noise that they know full well happens on a regular basis.

Is that really too much to ask?... no, I don't think so.

Sorry I missed the point in the first instance regarding pubs. But this is also something that should be addressed.

Audio Advent

02-01-2015, 15:18

Macca

02-01-2015, 15:27

if you leave the council to do it then it will
a) be done badly
b) cost a fortune

and since it's my money they will be spending to do it I'm not in favour of that. If someone buys a house it is up to them to do due diligence, it they don't that's their problem.

Spectral Morn

02-01-2015, 16:38

Well, one pub that still has live music in Leeds has a restriction on their beer garden. They can't use it after 9 because of the noise. No music, no band, just people drinking and talking.

Its not only an issue with Motorhead levels of sound. There is also a minimum volume you can practically play at when using a drum kit. So "turn it down" only goes so far. Live music I have heard over the last 10 years has all been at a much lower level than in the 70's. H&S rules, better quality PA's and 30W guitar amps have all contributed towards that.

I am aware of the volume levels with a drum kit, even a damped one re other instruments but many gigs I have been to have been way too loud and its only by using earplugs that I could hear what was going on, hiding poor musicianship with excessive volume is a common issue.

Anyway regardless of noise issue with neighbours etc there is also an issue re damaged hearing too, to consider.

Not sure what the answer is re all this, it should be possible to find a compromise with neighbours including giving those directly affected so many free tickets to compensate per year. Seems to me this would have solved the Garth Brooks debacle in Dublin last year, where a number of gigs were cancelled due to potential noise issues with locals.

Regards Neil

struth

02-01-2015, 17:06

on this theme i was going to soundproof my shared wall if it could be done at low cost as i dont like annoying or being annoyed by soundwaves.

Oldpinkman

02-01-2015, 18:23

I am aware of the volume levels with a drum kit, even a damped one re other instruments but many gigs I have been to have been way too loud and its only by using earplugs that I could hear what was going on, hiding poor musicianship with excessive volume is a common issue.

Anyway regardless of noise issue with neighbours etc there is also an issue re damaged hearing too, to consider.

Not sure what the answer is re all this, it should be possible to find a compromise with neighbours including giving those directly affected so many free tickets to compensate per year. Seems to me this would have solved the Garth Brooks debacle in Dublin last year, where a number of gigs were cancelled due to potential noise issues with locals.

Regards Neil

Its tricky with small venues - but I have resorted to earplugs too. A lot depends where you are. I roadied for a band who played too loud in my view - but it was only a problem when my desk had to be close to the stage. When I was back 10 feet or so, it was much less of a problem. I only had control over vocals, and the mike in the bass drum, and for the guitar synth. Volume for the direct guitar, and the bass were both set by their own stage amps. But for all they were too loud, the unamplified drums were correct in the mix...:(

I think the issue though that Paul is addressing is that if the venue was there first, then the noise was there first, and anybody moving into the area should take account of that. It is such an obvious point it demands support. As Macca pointed out, you don't buy a house backing onto a railway and then complain about the noise from the railway and ask the train service to be stopped. That's the "agent of change".

Oldpinkman

02-01-2015, 18:28

on this theme i was going to soundproof my shared wall if it could be done at low cost as i dont like annoying or being annoyed by soundwaves.

It's a worthy cause. If I stay I may have a pot at mine, but its real hard to do well. Bass is almost impossible to stop and "leaks" everywhere. (We have a studio in the garden and built in extensive sound proofing, but if a band are rehearsing you still hear the bass.

The real problem is a need to seal the room. So although we had thick floor roof and wall insulation in the studio there was a lot of noise escaping from the door - both inadequate insulation on the door itself, and more critically poor sealing of the door. In our living room, the problem is going to be the chimney in the middle of the wall to our neighbours - insulating behind the woodburner.

If you decide to do it, look into green glue. 2 sheets of 15mm plasterboard bonded with green glue on isolating battens is a cost effective, minimum intrusion, decently effective step. Seal round the edges and you should take at least 25db off.

Lodgesound

02-01-2015, 19:21

I have to say that my own experience of this type of gig is that the volume level is always way too loud.

As a general rule when setting the overall volume for these events my personal feeling is that folk should be able to comfortably talk without shouting whilst the gig is being played.

Sounds a tall order I know but the volumes these things are set for goes way beyond uncomfortable and often enters pain thresholds - as has already been said I resort to ear defenders now as I cannot at my age risk significant hearing loss due to 30 seconds exposure to such levels (all it takes in severe circumstances).

I am all for live gigs but the artists must absolutely reduce the overall volume levels given the science and current understanding of human hearing damage and loss.

No more than 90dBA total level ie. 10dBA above normal human speech.

Adherence to this would I feel siginificantly reduce the problems being experienced by venue owners.

anthonyTD

02-01-2015, 20:01

Quite agree,
A...
I have to say that my own experience of this type of gig is that the volume level is always way too loud.

As a general rule when setting the overall volume for these events my personal feeling is that folk should be able to comfortably talk without shouting whilst the gig is being played.

Sounds a tall order I know but the volumes these things are set for goes way beyond uncomfortable and often enters pain thresholds - as has already been said I resort to ear defenders now as I cannot at my age risk significant hearing loss due to 30 seconds exposure to such levels (all it takes in severe circumstances).

I am all for live gigs but the artists must absolutely reduce the overall volume levels given the science and current understanding of human hearing damage and loss.

No more than 90dBA total level ie. 10dBA above normal human speech.

Adherence to this would I feel siginificantly reduce the problems being experienced by venue owners.

Ninanina

02-01-2015, 20:02

Bev forgive me but thats not the point, would you think it fair to move to a house near a known music venue that has been enjoyed by many over the years, whose neighbours see it as an asset to the area and the capaign to get the music stopped? If you move in knowing there is a venue, surely it's unfair to change what existing locals enjoy?

The trouble is most house viewings are probably during the day when said venue probably don't have live music playing so how on earth is a prospective buyer, of a property nearby a live music venue, able to make an informed purchase?

I know someone that has a pub pretty nearby them and, since a change of landlord, this pub has become loud and unruly and I know one of his neighbours has since had to move away from the area.. how can that be fair ?

Like I said I love live music I just wouldn't want it on my doorstep, and I'm sure most people wouldn't either.. ;)

struth

02-01-2015, 20:11

I don't go to these type of things because they are always way too loud. I do like music at a reasonable level but I like to be able to think and talk if I want(not often I know;) ) It is a fair point though in that if something has been going on in a place for many years without a problem and just because someone moves into the neighbourhood, and did no advance checks then in my opinion t is kinda their hard luck. If you make one of the biggest purchases of your life, and don't do due diligence on all aspects then you cannot really expect everyone to just fall into line with your desires. After saying that, if a large enough proportion of the neighbours want it reduced then that would need to looked at.

PaulStewart

03-01-2015, 00:27

Interestingly there is a petition here http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/72458 that has been posted by Defra which seeks a mandatory waiver on the right to apply to have noise based planning changes made by people moving into areas near motor sport venues. We have lost race tracks to NIMBYs as well as music venues, I've signed this petition too and if it's accepted, it may set precedent for music.

struth

03-01-2015, 00:36

montesquieu

03-01-2015, 00:45

When we were looking we rejected some lovely places because of proximity to pubs - just not worth the grief. Though to be honest we also rejected a couple of places too near to churches (not just Sunday morning traffic but lots of daytime and evening traffic/parking issues too with stuff on at the Church Hall). Even so we still got caught, there's a local pub in the village has big outside events on summer bank holidays, that are unpleasantly loud from a quarter of a mile away. (The music - canned of course - is shit as well, crappy chart pop rubbish).

The 'too loud' issue I think is a bit of a red herring .... I know when I was gigging in really loud venues, sometimes you have to crank it up just to hear yourself over the crowd (plenty musicians get ear damage from this - even classical ones playing in concert halls). And volume is a really hard thing to regulate; in reality a venue is either OK, or it's not. And the power of the NIMBYs is increasing, as can be seen from the struggle to get enough houses built right across the country.

All that will happen of course is that young bands won't have so many places to play, skills won't be honed and Britain will become even more of an also-ran in the music business. Of course, the biggest thing to bugger that up was the changes to jobseekers allowance .....

Oldpinkman

03-01-2015, 09:02

This thread does make you wonder how many hifi enthusiasts are just that. Or whether they actually listen to music. And if they do, where they find venues away from anyone else. We get to hear the concerts at the hop farm in beltring, 4 miles away here. Peter Gabriel and his Orchestra last year.

Ammonite Audio

03-01-2015, 09:20

Whatever anyone's feelings towards someone who moves to a nuisance and then complains about it, the law is clear in that such people are entitled to seek action; and the law will be largely on their side, although in practice to the resulting remedy may be tempered by prior knowledge of the nuisance. There is plenty of case law on this matter.

But, nuisance is nuisance, and anti-social behaviour, or lack of consideration for others, are things that I hate in modern society. How many here would simply turn up the wick on the stereo and say to themselves "feck the neighbours"? None, I hope.

Clearly, live music is something to be encouraged and preserved, but not to the detriment of ordinary people in the vicinity. There are ways of organising such things so as to minimise third party impacts.

Gordon Steadman

03-01-2015, 09:20

Sort of in line with the thread.

Most of the live music out here it by Brits!! They do the rounds of all the Brit owned restaurants and bars. I haven't seen a French band advertised for ages - except some definitely crap jazz bands.

Our friends own a ferme auberge and regularly have live music. As they know my leanings, they asked me to do sound checks for them and set levels. We have been complimented on how easy it is for people to carry on conversation whilst the music is playing. It is also noticeable that there seems to be far more attention being payed to the music and people do the musicians the compliment of actually listening to them.

Too much volume is a real killer.

Marco

03-01-2015, 17:14

But, nuisance is nuisance, and anti-social behaviour, or lack of consideration for others, are things that I hate in modern society. How many here would simply turn up the wick on the stereo and say to themselves "feck the neighbours"? None, I hope.

Clearly, live music is something to be encouraged and preserved, but not to the detriment of ordinary people in the vicinity. There are ways of organising such things so as to minimise third party impacts.

Hear, hear, Hugo! :clap:

I’m late to this discussion, but you’ve got it spot on, and I too abhor the lack of consideration we have today for others around us.

Undoubtedly Macca makes a valid point about railway stations, but there’s not a lot one can do about the noise created by trains. There is, however, plenty that can be done about noise pollution from pubs and public places playing music at stupidly loud, unsociable levels, which are completely unnecessary.

No-one loves listening to live music more than me, and I attend loads of events every year, at various venues, where friends and I enjoy listening to music, but only when *I* want to listen to it, not when it’s being foisted upon me at levels that adversely affect how I live - and I speak as someone who has a pub literally next door to his house, where live music is played every Friday and Saturday night, so I know what I’m talking about here, and can empathise with those who suffer from not wanting to be exposed to the din often created.

Our house dates from 1887, and so it was there long before the pub was, in what is now a quiet residential area. The pub is therefore surrounded by many houses, quite a few lived in by elderly people. Therefore, it’s not a case of ‘you should’ve known what to expect because the pub was there’….

We’ve had run-ins with various landlords about keeping the noise down in order to prevent us clearly hearing every word being sung by live bands when we’re sitting on the toilet or trying to listen to TV in the lounge, almost at one point leading to fisticuffs between me and one particular cretin, who didn’t give a damn how much noise was made, up till midnight at night, as long as he was making money! :rolleyes:

Well, Del used to work for Wrexham Council, so a quick word with one of her contacts in the environmental health department, and the use of an SPL meter, soon put paid to tosser-boy's ideas… Now the noise levels are acceptable, as we appreciate that there’s a pub next door and they're trying to make a living, so don’t expect silence, but the live music now stops way before midnight. Since then, we’ve had no further trouble, so job done.

Quite simply, it’s all about not being selfish, showing consideration for others, and being able to compromise, by understanding how to co-exist harmoniously amongst other people, who are just as entitled to share the same space on this planet as you!

:exactly:

Marco.

Macca

03-01-2015, 17:31

Our house dates from 1887, and so it was there long before the pub was, in what is now a quiet residential area. The pub is therefore surrounded by many houses, quite a few lived in by elderly people. Therefore, it’s not a case of ‘you should’ve known what to expect because the pub was there’….

.
You didn't buy the house in 1887, though. A pub right nest door is always going to be a noise issue even if it is just drunks leaving noisily. I used to have a pub either end of the street, it was commonplace to have drunken arguments (almost always a bloke arguing with his bird) happening in the street right outside my house, well into the middle of the night. Both pubs are now closed and falling down so no doubt will be replaced with houses or flats in the next boom and the street is now deserted after dark. Can't say it ever bothered me though and I knew the score when I bought the house in any case.

We live in a crowded country so people need to be more accepting of noise from the environment, that goes for neighbours in terraces and semi detached houses too. Your neighbours are going to make noise and play music and you are going to hear it so live with it or fork out the extra and go detached, and if you are really sensitive get a detached out in the country with no neighbours or pubs. If you can't afford that then tough shit we all have our crosses to bear. My neighbour occasionally likes a bit of Motley Crue, loud, at 6 am. I don't like it but I live with it because I don't want to get another mortgage. I don't see there is anything to be gained by complaining about it, that's life in terraced housing. If it was all the time instead of just occasionally then okay I would take the hit and move to a detached house. I'd do the same if the neighbours ever complained to me about my music. That would ruin the pleasure for me so I'd have to move. Fortunately they never have.

anthonyTD

03-01-2015, 17:41

The main issue with some venues is not the musicians themselves' but the idiot behind the mixing desks on the PA, seen walking around with ear buds in, they cant posibly set a realistic level while their ears are being blocked in this way, so' they keep pushing up bass, and high frequencies to compensate their own hearing! :doh: And yes, i have witnessed this on a number of occasions, i also deal with musicians on a daily basis, ie; i repair a lot of equipment for many guitarists, etc.

The 'too loud' issue I think is a bit of a red herring .... I know when I was gigging in really loud venues, sometimes you have to crank it up just to hear yourself over the crowd (plenty musicians get ear damage from this - even classical ones playing in concert halls). And volume is a really hard thing to regulate; in reality a venue is either OK, or it's not. And the power of the NIMBYs is increasing, as can be seen from the struggle to get enough houses built right across the country.

All that will happen of course is that young bands won't have so many places to play, skills won't be honed and Britain will become even more of an also-ran in the music business. Of course, the biggest thing to bugger that up was the changes to jobseekers allowance .....

This part i agree, it is very sad, and very worrying at the moment, Many pubs cannot stay open unless they have something else to offer the genral public apart from alchohol, ie; live music, or food, As have already been stated, many of these buildings, or the enviroment they are in are not suitable for live music in modern day life, so' what's the alternative ? they close, and for a while, the people who want to go out and see a good live band will be spoilt for choice as the landlords of the remaining venues will have the pick of the best bands out there, however, this will not last, if young and up-coming bands have nowhere to play, then they will eventually give up, and if we let it happen, we may see the begining of the end for local live music very soon!
A...

The Black Adder

03-01-2015, 17:42

That's about disclosure by estate agents and previous owners - they can't possibly allow such information to effect the price they can get for the property!

Sod the estate agents I say... it won't break them.

Ninanina

03-01-2015, 18:53

Marco

03-01-2015, 20:15

You didn't buy the house in 1887, though. A pub right nest door is always going to be a noise issue even if it is just drunks leaving noisily.

The pub arrived in the late 1970s, after ridiculously being granted planning permission by the local council (no doubt after receiving a ‘bung’ from someone to make sure it happened), as that’s how corrupt things are. It should never have been built right next to someone’s house, and smack bang in the middle of a quiet residential area, as that is completely inappropriate.

The irony, of course, is that right next door I have a hi-fi system with huge speakers that’s almost as capable of making as much noise as the PA system used for their live music nights, so I’ve often thought of dragging the Lockwoods out into the front garden and cranking up some Rammstein, to see who ‘wins'!! :D

I used to have a pub either end of the street, it was commonplace to have drunken arguments (almost always a bloke arguing with his bird) happening in the street right outside my house, well into the middle of the night. Both pubs are now closed and falling down so no doubt will be replaced with houses or flats in the next boom and the street is now deserted after dark. Can't say it ever bothered me though and I knew the score when I bought the house in any case.

Well, good luck to you. Perhaps you didn’t have a choice, but there’s no way I’d have lived in somewhere like that.

We live in a crowded country so people need to be more accepting of noise from the environment, that goes for neighbours in terraces and semi detached houses too. Your neighbours are going to make noise and play music and you are going to hear it so live with it or fork out the extra and go detached, and if you are really sensitive get a detached out in the country with no neighbours or pubs. If you can't afford that then tough shit we all have our crosses to bear. My neighbour occasionally likes a bit of Motley Crue, loud, at 6 am. I don't like it but I live with it because I don't want to get another mortgage. I don't see there is anything to be gained by complaining about it, that's life in terraced housing. If it was all the time instead of just occasionally then okay I would take the hit and move to a detached house. I'd do the same if the neighbours ever complained to me about my music. That would ruin the pleasure for me so I'd have to move. Fortunately they never have.

That’s a rather interesting attitude to take and smacks of ‘folk do what they like, so tough titty’… That’s hardly constructive.

What about if, since we live in a crowded country, we were more accommodating and considerate towards other people, and THINK about how our actions impact on those around us, making adjustments when necessary?

Neighbours don’t automatically have to make noise and play music at such levels that you can hear it, and where it may cause you annoyance. You can work together and come to a form of compromise that's acceptable to everyone. It’s called being considerate and reasonable.

If your neighbour had any consideration whatsoever for others, he wouldn’t play Motley Crue loud at 6am. He’d use some headphones!

Therefore, he sounds like a selfish and inconsiderate wanker - and folk like that need standing up to, just as I didn’t put up with the pub landlord next door holding live gigs with music so loud that we could hardly think. We complained to the appropriate authorities, and he was forced to turn it down.

You don’t just put up with shit simply because ‘it’s part of life’ - you do something about it to force a change for the better - at least that’s what I do.

The bottom line in all of this is that live music in pubs doesn’t have to be played at ear-splitting levels, in order to be enjoyable, so there’s simply NO excuse whatsoever for it, when doing so is causing considerable annoyance and discomfort to others who have to share the same space - simples!!

There are times and places for live music, such as in the centre of a town, where one expects such, along with other forms of noisy activity (which is where I go to hear live music), not in the middle of a quiet residential housing estate.

Marco.

Ninanina

03-01-2015, 20:45

+1 ...

What he said..:)

lurcher

03-01-2015, 21:09

There are times and places for live music, such as in the centre of a town, where one expects such, along with other forms of noisy activity (which is where I go to hear live music), not in the middle of a quiet residential housing estate..

Which is exactly the point my post was about. Pubs in the middle of citys are being forced to not have live music any more by local residents.

Marco

03-01-2015, 21:16

I’m no killjoy, Bev, as indeed I’m sure you’re not, but we have to start thinking more about how our behaviour in this world impacts on others, as the currently selfish ‘I’m all right Jack’ crap is one of the main reasons why society today is in the state that it’s in! :rolleyes:

There is simply NO WAY I’d ever play music at the levels I do, if I had immediate neighbours to consider - and if I did, I’d expect to take the consequences. Similarly, others, especially those who own pubs and public buildings where live music is played, should wise up and appreciate that other people need to be considered other than just their customers.

If a bit of intelligent thought is put into it, there should be ample (suitable) places, up and down the country, where new bands can play to a live audience, and further their careers in the music business, so realistically nothing like that need die a death, but at the same time, some consideration needs to be shown for others who aren’t into the same things as you.

Marco.

Marco

03-01-2015, 21:19

Which is exactly the point my post was about. Pubs in the middle of citys are being forced to not have live music any more by local residents.

That I don’t agree with, as if you choose to live in the middle of city, then you should expect noise of all kinds - and at 'unsociable hours', too.

However, that doesn’t mean both sides can’t show some compromise, which is the key word here! The pubs could turn the music down to acceptable levels, so that the punters can still enjoy the music, but it’s not so painfully loud so as to disturb local residents.

Simples! At the end of the day, we should do our best to try and get on with each other. All this selfishness is bullshit :)

Marco.

Ronksley

03-01-2015, 21:28

This law is bad in some ways but makes sense in others.
if somewhere has been having live music loud for years they must be allowed to carry on.
People who move to cities are stupid if they expect a quite life they move there when there young to be near baras and clubs and all that then expect a quite life when the get proper jobs and kids.
While humans still walk the earth live music will never die its one of the things that makes us human.

ff1d1l

03-01-2015, 23:41

All respect to the original poster, I take issue with the title of this thread. It isn't a threat to live music, it's a threat to one type of live music. A type notorious for the decibel level at which it insists on playing.

Am I behind the campaign? I don't think I am...

I think this fundamentally is legislation for consideration to be shown. I also think the argument that existing noise somehow has priority over later complainants is a specious one. Annoyance, maybe even to the level of ruining someones life is being legislated against here.
I don't have a problem with that.
We are all living on an increasingly crowded island, and issues of interpersonal consideration, whether now or in the future, seems an unusually sane target for our legislators to adopt. Me, I'd have a 12pm curfew in city centres too.

As an aside, my son, who is a year into a music tech course, rehearses his band with three other rock bands in one room. Electronic drums and earphone monitoring. These days this is hardly cutting edge technology, and bands have had access to in ear monitoring at less than exorbitant prices for some time now. This would seem to be a possible solution to the "crowd was so loud we couldn't hear ourselves" argument. It seems that only a little technological innovation could extend this facility to the audience, and noise pollution could be a thing of the past....you read it here first...

I hope I don't come over as some sort of killjoy - I play gigs through a PA weekly and last did a pub gig with a rock band a few months ago. I also co-ran an acoustic music festival for a decade where no PA was used - well one band did, a bluegrass band with excellent single mic skills - really the PA was being used as another instrument here, and was at very low level. So I have a foot in both camps, and would like to think I appreciate multiple points of view.

I will say, though, PA's have made people forget how to shut the fuck up and listen. How many gigs have you been at with someone yakking on endlessly next to you, or on the phone? It's all alright for them to do so though, because there's a PA.

BTH K10A

04-01-2015, 01:47

I wasn't going to comment on this but an old work collegue of mine who's plays semi professionally in a band doing gigs in pubs and clubs around the south east has emailed me the same link in the OP urging me to sign.

I'm finding it hard to sympathise with him as a couple of years ago he moved out of London to the Kent countryside in village near Lydden race track. No sooner had he moved there he was forever complaining about the noise from the racing, church bells and a neighbours cockerell as well as the strange noises from the local wildlife.

Nimbyism is ingrained in the human psyche, we all fight our corner and complaints will occur when people think their quality of life is being affected by others. What is required is a reasoned, rational determination from any regulatory body that embodies a degree of empathy and tolerance between all parties to reach an amicable solution. Unfortunately that rarely happens.

synsei

04-01-2015, 05:59

The objective of this campaign is skewed towards those who choose to go to listen to live music in small venues, however spare a thought for the poor buggers who live next door who don't get a choice. How long residents may have lived in the area is a moot point as sound is not discriminatory, people often are though. A bit of common sense from all concerned would go a long way to reducing any problems in most cases.

Oldpinkman

04-01-2015, 08:49

A few clarifications. This is about live music. Not loud music. At my local pub, they have a restriction on amplified music. If I can pluck an acoustic guitar hard enough to accompany a trained soprano, no licence is needed. If I need a small boost from an acoustic combo, a licence is needed.

It is about change. Not annoying the neighbours. It's about an existing club being shut by neighbours moving in. Sound proofing is not always an answer. How would you sound proof Peter Gabriel open air concert at the paddock wood hop farm? This venue is a good case in point. On the old Whiteread hop farm, on a bypass, the nearest house was a mile away. Until they finish converting yet another failed pub into 6 residential houses. 100 yards away.

The principal is universal. Should my 3rd generation pig farmer client have to cease 100year family farming tradition because it is smelly and noisy if houses are built next to it. Should we have to build a bypass for a dangerous main road every time someone starts a family in a house on it (current campaign)?

The thrust of the campaign is agent of change. If it was always there, then you need to allow for that when moving in.

Floyddroid

04-01-2015, 09:45

All done Paul.

having stages two prog rock festivals up in the North East i can confirm what an up hill struggle it is trying to achieve such a thing. It darn nearly wore me out. Sadly it isn't only down to planning regulation and bureaucracy. The terrible apathy which exists in so many people is unbelievable. It is peoples attitudes that make them stay at home and get pissed on cheap booze watching Sky Arts often prevents them traveling into their local venues and enjoying the real thing. I have signed the petition unreservedly as i really do believe that we should continue the campaign to return live music to said venues and out of TV studios. I think you are probably far more qualified than i am to comment on this Paul. :guitar:
Live music is under threat, new planning regulations mean that the number of venues losing licences, because new "neighbours" complain about the "noise", even though the venue has been there for years before the new persons moved in and in many cases before new housing was built. Frank Turner has become involved in the campaign so have More Music Radio. Check out the post and the video at http://www.moremusicradio.uk/?p=367 and please click through and sign the petition.

Cheers

Macca

04-01-2015, 10:12

The pub arrived in the late 1970s, after ridiculously being granted planning permission by the local council (no doubt after receiving a ‘bung’ from someone to make sure it happened), as that’s how corrupt things are. It should never have been built right next to someone’s house, and smack bang in the middle of a quiet residential area, as that is completely inappropriate.

The irony, of course, is that right next door I have a hi-fi system with huge speakers that’s almost as capable of making as much noise as the PA system used for their live music nights, so I’ve often thought of dragging the Lockwoods out into the front garden and cranking up some Rammstein, to see who ‘wins'!! :D

Well, good luck to you. Perhaps you didn’t have a choice, but there’s no way I’d have lived in somewhere like that.

That’s a rather interesting attitude to take and smacks of ‘folk do what they like, so tough titty’… That’s hardly constructive.

What about if, since we live in a crowded country, we were more accommodating and considerate towards other people, and THINK about how our actions impact on those around us, making adjustments when necessary?

Neighbours don’t automatically have to make noise and play music at such levels that you can hear it, and where it may cause you annoyance. You can work together and come to a form of compromise that's acceptable to everyone. It’s called being considerate and reasonable.

If your neighbour had any consideration whatsoever for others, he wouldn’t play Motley Crue loud at 6am. He’d use some headphones!

Therefore, he sounds like a selfish and inconsiderate wanker - and folk like that need standing up to, just as I didn’t put up with the pub landlord next door holding live gigs with music so loud that we could hardly think. We complained to the appropriate authorities, and he was forced to turn it down.

You don’t just put up with shit simply because ‘it’s part of life’ - you do something about it to force a change for the better - at least that’s what I do.

The bottom line in all of this is that live music in pubs doesn’t have to be played at ear-splitting levels, in order to be enjoyable, so there’s simply NO excuse whatsoever for it, when doing so is causing considerable annoyance and discomfort to others who have to share the same space - simples!!

There are times and places for live music, such as in the centre of a town, where one expects such, along with other forms of noisy activity (which is where I go to hear live music), not in the middle of a quiet residential housing estate.

Marco.

You have to take into account that you paid less for your house because it is next door to pub and on a main road than you would have done had it been up a track off a country lane...likewise I got my house cheap because it was (is) a run down terrace in a bad area. The party wall is only 2 bricks thick (no air gap) so you can hear any noise - TV, conversation, the clink of cutlery on dinner plates. And I like to play music too (just not at 6 am) so if I started a thing with my neighbour (she not he) then not only would I sour what are good relations (she puts my bin out for me each week, very considerate) but I could end up not being able to do that at all without it all kicking off. That's a lot more aggravation in the long run than the Motley Crue at dawn.

On the other hand I agree that PA systems in these pubs are not only crap but are also cranked way beyond what is needed. If the band can't hear themselves get some frigging stage monitors. As someone else mentioned you see the sound engineer with earplugs, how can he possibly set the levels right?

But I still stand by my guns in that the best solution to these situations is to change your own circumstances rather than to try to change the world around to suit you.

Marco

04-01-2015, 11:05

You have to take into account that you paid less for your house because it is next door to pub and on a main road than you would have done had it been up a track off a country lane…

You’re completely missing the point, mate.

I don’t give a monkey’s toss how much we ‘saved’ because there was a pub next door when we bought the house - I would’ve gladly paid MORE had the bloody thing not been there! Del’s mum was already living in the house when we bought it from her (after we had moved down from Glasgow, so Del could look after her mum in her old age), so the fact that there was a pub next door didn’t form any part of our decision making when buying the house.

It wasn’t as if we had selected that house and area to live in because there was a pub next door and the house was going cheap… This has got fuck all to do with money :nono:

The point is, the pub should never have been granted planning permission in the first place. It's a completely unsuitable area for it. I can tell you that had the same thing happened now, i.e. there was no pub there, and someone was intending on opening one, there is NO WAY on this earth that the local residents would want it - indeed they would fight tooth and nail to prevent it from happening!

Do you see my point now? The fact is, as has already been stated, quiet residential areas are no places for pubs to be playing painfully loud live music - end of. That’s what town centres are for.

And I like to play music too (just not at 6 am) so if I started a thing with my neighbour (she not he) then not only would I sour what are good relations (she puts my bin out for me each week, very considerate) but I could end up not being able to do that at all without it all kicking off. That's a lot more aggravation in the long run than the Motley Crue at dawn.

Well, that’s fine. The bottom line is that the current arrangement suits both of you, so there is no issue. Like I said, it’s all about consideration and compromise. You simply can’t just do what the hell you like without considering how your actions will impact on others around you. That’s the crux of the matter here, and is how anyone behaves who's been brought up properly!

But I still stand by my guns in that the best solution to these situations is to change your own circumstances rather than to try to change the world around to suit you.

Except, that’s not what I’m saying. I’m simply saying that there are times and places for pubs to play very loud live music, and a residential housing estate isn’t one of them. It’s not a case of changing the world around you to suit you; it’s about not simply allowing the world around you to take the piss and get away with things that are plain wrong, and doing something about it when that happens!

I’ve never been the ‘sit back and take it’ type, as otherwise you simply get trampled all over, so when I need to, I stand up and fight for what is right.

It’s also about (as I’ve said umpteen times now) showing compromise and consideration towards others, which is precisely what we’ve done with the pub next door. It was there when we arrived, so there’s nothing we can do about that, but that doesn’t mean we had to tolerate the ridiculous and illegal noise levels being created by the live music played.

Yes, there is a law against noise pollution. Any noise audible in your properly, created by neighbours next door, beyond a certain db level (tested by an SPL meter) is illegal, so you simply don’t have to put up with it. Therefore, I didn’t, and took the necessary action by complaining to the relevant authorities.

The volume that the live bands play at has since been reduced to acceptable levels. Yes, we can still hear the music (so the noise level is still not perfect), but it’s tolerable (and within legal limits) - and that’s the COMPROMISE that’s been reached.

It’s not as if we’re insisting on silence! ;)

Marco.

Macca

04-01-2015, 11:12

I didn't know that your house was already in the family, so to speak. Makes a bit more sense now.

Don't get me wrong I think in your specific circumstance you were right to complain and get it sorted that way (although the 'battle of the PA systems' might have been more fun ;)) - my comments were really made more in general terms than directly to your situation.

Incidentally I got the impression when I was there that the pub building was a lot older than 1970s, shows how observant I'm not.

Marco

04-01-2015, 11:40

I didn't know that your house was already in the family, so to speak. Makes a bit more sense now.

I thought you knew that (as I’d mentioned it before). If we were setting out to buy a house now, which may be the case in the next few years, it would be properly detached and out in the sticks somewhere in the hills of North Wales - and we’d be more than willing to pay the premium for that.

Don't get me wrong I think in your specific circumstance you were right to complain and get it sorted that way (although the 'battle of the PA systems' might have been more fun) - my comments were really made more in general terms than directly to your situation.

That’s fair enough. I just think that these days too many inconsiderate and selfish attitudes prevail, and like Hugo said earlier, it’s indicative of modern society, as it didn’t use to be that way. Folk now seem to think they can do what they like, and only be concerned about what’s happening inside their own ‘little bubble’.

The funny thing is, some of my mates up in Scotland would KILL to have a pub right next door to them (as they’re all piss heads)! :D

The truth is, we never use it, as it’s largely an old man’s pub, except at the weekends when they have live music on. The irony too is that we’d go and listen to the music, if it were any good!! But it’s mainly painfully poor tribute bands, and such like, playing shit music on a horrible distorting PA system - not our thing at all.

As for the ‘battle of the PA systems’, trust me when things were bad, I’d thought about it! I’m sure the old boys drinking their pints of ale, during lovely quiet afternoons, would appreciate some Tool or Porcupine Tree right up them! :eyebrows: Maybe the best thing to do would be to invite the landlord next door in for a sesh and let him hear what real ‘live’ music sounds like? ;)

Incidentally I got the impression when I was there that the pub building was a lot older than 1970s, shows how observant I'm not.

Defo 1970s. I could check to get the exact date. It’s a bloody eyesore as well as an ‘earsore’, but hey, you can’t have everything…

Marco.