Firebottle+ phononstage - a wee review

[Mike g]

So I've been trying to find a new phonostage for the last few months...I've had a few over the years including dynavector p75mkII, eastern electric Minimax and most recent a Trichord Dino mkII. I like the dino (certainly preferred it to the eastern electric) and my original plan was to add a dino+ or never connected power supply however I couldn't pick one up for a reasonable s/h price and baulked at paying £300/£500 for a new one. I therefore tried the firebottle demo unit and the arkless modified cambridge 640p demo unit. I won't say much about the arkless as this is not a review of this stage however it was very very good and a step up from the dino. The fact that I went with the firebottle is in no way a criticism of the arkless just down to personal preference.

It's worth me noting my current kit: michell gyrodec with orbe upgrade kit, jelco 750d tonearm with audio origami internal rewire and fettle, audio origami arm lead into phonostage, van damme interconnect into a naim XS powered by a teddycap, naim nac a5 speaker cable and finally a pair of pmc fb1i speakers. Cartridge wise I have a shure 95 with a jico sas stylus and a denon dl304. I have changed my kit quite a bit this year (from naim CB amps back to an xs which was the first proper amp I owned) and the jelco arm and the gyrodec are new (to me). I also like to change carts from time to time which is why I wanted an arm with a removable headshell. It's also worth pointing out that I bought myself a Dr Feickert alignment protractor as a Christmas present so I've been able to dial the Shure cart right in (not had time to do the denon yet).

So having listened to the firebottle demo unit I thought this would be the stage for me. I got very lucky and picked up a + version second hand just before Christmas. As it was a Christmas present from Mrs G I only got to plug it in on Christmas Day. However I've had music on since then so had a reasonably good chance to listen. And my conclusion is...the firebottle+ is brilliant. Bass and drums start and stop when they should with bags of space around them and loads of texture. It does midrange and vocals very well - as you would expect from a good valve stage. What I want above all else from music is those spine tingling moments where a note or a sound just rocks you back on your feet a bit - and I'm now getting that with the firebottle plugged in (I know that system synergy is paramount so one but of kit won't cure problems in other bits). Right now I have a beastie boys remix album on and it is just grooving along with a big full sound filling the living room. I'm also hearing details on bits of music that I hadn't heard before (eg a track on Graceland by Paul Simon had a bass accompanying a drum that i didn't know what there - though again proper cartridge set up probably helps here).

The firebottle also looks great - a solid price of kit with a small glowing light which actually looks sturdier that my naim amp.

So...if you are thinking about a new phonostage I would urge you to give the firebottle a test run. Of course it might not suit everyone but to me it does what I had hoped (but feared I would not without spending oodles of money) I would get from a valve amp - a tough of warmth missing from ss equipment, bags of texture and a great timbre to instruments.

Lastly despite the fact that I bought my stage second hand Alan who makes the firebottle has been very very helpful both in terms of the demo stage and when I had some questions about the one that I bought- he clearly builds them for the love of it and is more interested in making sure his designs work for people who use them above all else.

[Marco]

Nice write-up, Mike. Glad you’re pleased with the Firebottle :)

I had the pleasure of listening to one last night, courtesy of DarrenHW, who brought his round to my place and we listened to it in my system, comparing it with the valve MM stage in my Croft (using both with the Paul Hynes MC head amp). For the money the Firebottle is an utter bargain!

Any idea which valves it uses?

Marco.

[Mike g]

I'm not sure what valves are in it - I think alan did a bit of work choosing valves that worked in synergy with the amp (in particular gain) so haven't had the lid off to have a look. I'm also trying to avoid getting caught in the cycle of valve rolling and thinking about how to change the sound instead of sitting back and enjoying it!

[Marco]

No worries - just curious what valves Alan chose for his design. Perhaps he’ll pop in and advise? :)

Marco.

[Ali Tait]

PCC85 and 88 I think.

[Ali Tait]

He may have changed them in the latest version.

[Firebottle]

Hi Marco,
Just been listening to Paul Jones blues show on Radio 2, it's a must in this house, otherwise I would have replied earlier.
I'm glad it was a pleasurable experience now you've got to hear the Firebottle Plus phono.
My design approach is to use what would be considered unusual or 'left field' choices of valve, not what you would particularly choose for a phono stage.

I currently use a PCF80 (this is the higher heater voltage version of the ECF80) plus a PCC189, this is similar to an ECC88 but with a different heater voltage.
For the latest iteration with more gain for MC I am now using a PCC85, again a bit unusual.

These choices suit the (again left field) choice of how I do the power supply. I have never rated the usual ECC83, it doesn't have the balls to do the signal justice.

I am working on a possible mark 2 that will use a radical approach for a valve phono, with no coupling capacitors, which I believe hasn't been done before. It's so radical it might not even work, I'll have to wait and see.

So how close to the Charisma did you think the Firebottle Plus got?

:cool: Alan

[Marco]

Hi Alan,

Thanks for the info. Interesting valve choice… Certainly better than an ECC83 (much more fluid and musical sounding), but still of the ‘small signal valve’ variety, which I always find have a certain sound, compared with the larger octal valves (6SL7s) I’m used to in the Croft.

I enjoyed listening to the Firebottle (in conjunction with the Paul Hynes MC head amp, as we were using my SPU cartridge). It has a beautifully detailed and expressive sound, with a nicely defined and lucid midrange presentation, which makes voices in particular very clear and easy to follow. It also has quite an ‘upfront’ sound that’s hugely fun but never fatiguing.

The Croft does similar things but is an altogether more sophisticated animal (one must consider the price difference, as the phono stage in the Croft costs about four times what the Firebottle does), mainly I feel down to the larger 6SL7 valves used, which have a bigger, deeper more expansive and lucid sound.

However, the Firebottle is an engaging listen and just stupidly good for the money. IMO, judging the level of its sonic performance and build quality, if it were produced commercially by an ‘established big name’ manufacturer it would sell for around £1200, so keep up the good work, Alan! :cool:

Marco.

[Ali Tait]

Marco, bear in mind it's a hybrid, using JFET's on the output like Nick's phono.

[Marco]

Ah, I see…. Still good, though :)

I wonder if Alan has ever tried designing a phono stage using 6SN or 6SL7s? For me, the bigger octal output valves usually sound weightier, sweeter and more ‘purposeful’.

Marco.

[Ali Tait]

Not that the single box version isn't good, but by comparison the two box is considerably better to my ears.

[Marco]

Is the second box an off-board linear PSU?

Marco.

[Ali Tait]

Nope. :-)

[Firebottle]

You tease Ali, a bit of it is linear :eyebrows:

[Marco]

Lol… Do you not fancy building a phono stage using the bigger valves, Alan? :)

Marco.

[Firebottle]

Marco, bear in mind it's a hybrid, using JFET's on the output like Nick's phono.

Actually Marco was listening to the MM version, this doesn't have the JFET on the input.

:cool: Alan

[Firebottle]

Lol… Do you not fancy building a phono stage using the bigger valves, Alan? :)

It would be an interesting exercise to see how much different it would sound. It is only the size of the valve that is in any sense 'bigger', you describe the valves I use as 'of the small signal valve variety'.
In fact the 6SL7 is the wimp if you look at the current capability, I am a definite fan of using stages that have large current flow.

IMO the 'top layer' of the Crofts performance is due to the boutique capacitors used, the Firebottle has no boutique caps, just carefully chosen 'off the shelf' as it were.

That is why I am trying to develop a circuit that does away with coupling capacitors, no capacitor has to be better than any brand fitted ;)

:cool: Alan

[Ali Tait]

You tease Ali, a bit of it is linear :eyebrows:

LOL, ok then, it's slightly linear. :-)

[Ali Tait]

Actually Marco was listening to the MM version, this doesn't have the JFET on the input.

:cool: Alan

Ah thanks, didn't know which he was listening to.

[Ali Tait]

It would be an interesting exercise to see how much different it would sound. It is only the size of the valve that is in any sense 'bigger', you describe the valves I use as 'of the small signal valve variety'.
In fact the 6SL7 is the wimp if you look at the current capability, I am a definite fan of using stages that have large current flow.

IMO the 'top layer' of the Crofts performance is due to the boutique capacitors used, the Firebottle has no boutique caps, just carefully chosen 'off the shelf' as it were.

That is why I am trying to develop a circuit that does away with coupling capacitors, no capacitor has to be better than any brand fitted ;)

:cool: Alan

Be interested in what comes out of this Alan, I agree caps have a sound.

[Marco]

It would be an interesting exercise to see how much different it would sound. It is only the size of the valve that is in any sense 'bigger', you describe the valves I use as 'of the small signal valve variety'.
In fact the 6SL7 is the wimp if you look at the current capability, I am a definite fan of using stages that have large current flow.

IMO the 'top layer' of the Crofts performance is due to the boutique capacitors used, the Firebottle has no boutique caps, just carefully chosen 'off the shelf' as it were.


I hear what you’re saying, Alan, and wouldn’t dispute it, but experience tells me that bigger valves *tend* also to have a ‘bigger/fuller’ and more expansive sound. That’s what I’ve always found when listening to and comparing valve amps using, say, EL84s, EL34s, 6550s, KT88s, KT120s and 300Bs.

It’s a bit of generalisation, of course, but as you go ‘up the range’, as it were, the bigger valves always had a more ‘grown up’, ‘fatter’ (in a nice way), certainly ‘ballsier’ sound, with better bass - and that’s what I’ve always found with 6SN7 and 6SL7 valves, used in preamps and phono stages, in comparison with their ‘smaller signal valve’ counterparts.

The latter always tend to have a brighter, punchier, leaner, subjectively ‘more hi-fi’ sound, but lack the fluidity and finesse of the former. I can’t comment on the technical ramifications of what I’m saying, but I’m simply telling it as I hear it :)

I’m presuming that the type of valve selected dictates the circuit used, so perhaps bigger valves demand bigger and better power supplies. Therefore, it’s the circuit as a whole that’s better, rather than the valves themselves. However, if I’m talking bollocks, just say! Regardless, though, I know what I’m hearing and there’s undoubtedly something in it.

‘Fancy caps' aside, that’s one of the reasons (the use of the larger octal valves) why I preferred the sound of the Charisma in stock form, over other Croft preamps that used ECC83s, or valves of a similar size.


That is why I am trying to develop a circuit that does away with coupling capacitors, no capacitor has to be better than any brand fitted…


Indeed, providing that ALL else is equal! ;)

The other thing I’d add is that, in general, I dislike the sound of current production valves, much preferring the best NOS varieties, so any valve amp that uses the former will most likely not be to my taste. I’m also big on the benefits of nice large, over-specced linear PSUs, and not too keen on the use of ‘Walwart’ switched-mode ones.

Marco.

[Marco]

Any views on that, Alan? :)

Marco.

[Firebottle]

I’m presuming that the type of valve selected dictates the circuit used, so perhaps bigger valves demand bigger and better power supplies. Therefore, it’s the circuit as a whole that’s better, rather than the valves themselves. However, if I’m talking bollocks, just say! Regardless, though, I know what I’m hearing and there’s undoubtedly something in it.
Marco.

You have such a broader experience of listening to different valve types that I can learn from you in that respect.
What you are presuming above is correct, that the circuit conditions and component values are dictated by the valve used, though a 'bigger and better' power supply is not necessarily required.

The fact that there are so many varieties of valve that can perform a 'small signal' role at audio frequencies is at once impressive, but yet frustrating.
You want the best? How to choose?

The variation of a valve characteristic is quite large, so the best designs try to cater for that. Some circuits I have studied I would leave alone but there are many that I would tweak to improve the acceptability of different valve makes and age. The problem of course is that published valve curves are based on the 'average' performance. This can vary by 20% or more depending on the particular manufacturer and their acceptance criteria.
This is I'm sure why generally the special quality SQ or E88CC type of valve will sound better in any given circuit.

There is a broad 'sweet spot' for valve operation but it could be at 1mA for one type but 20mA for another. What is required foremost is that the valve characteristics are as linear as possible, but none are perfectly linear. Do you know that certain valve types are specifically non-linear for applications requiring large operational ranges?

I imagine, but have never tried it, that small circuit tweaks could be made to bias and HT voltage (though they are always interdependent to some extent) to lessen the sound differences between different valve makes in the same circuit.
The 6SN7 valve is particularly good where linearity is concerned. Its sweet spot is in the 2mA area just for information.

Regarding power supplies the 'quality' of the power is of course of paramount importance, as the psu is part of the signal circuit however much it appears not to be.
The use of a wall-wart switch mode is as much to prove that quality performance can be achieved using one, plus also doing it at a specific price point. The Firebottle circuit has additional circuitry that gives a regulated HT, an important factor in achieving good linear performance.

:cool: Alan

[Marco]

Thanks for that, Alan - all interesting stuff!

Like I said, I think the Firebottle offers outstanding sonic performance and aesthetic appeal for the money, so yes, the use of wall-warts doesn’t necessarily result in compromised performance, and I think you’ve done an exemplary job of demonstrating that point :)

You obviously rate the 6SN7 (as do I). Some of the best valve preamps/phono stages I’ve heard use 6SN7s, so do you not fancy having a go with those valves in your designs? I guarantee that if you get it right, the results will be superb, and superior to anything you’ll achieve, sonically, with 'ECC83-size' output valves :exactly:

Marco.

[Marco]

:popcorn: :popcorn:

Marco.

[Firebottle]

I would like to try some Marco but I will have to get some in, I don't have any in my valve stock :(

:) Alan

[Marco]

Unfortunately, I don’t have any I can spare, otherwise I’d send you some. However, to get a ‘flavour’ of what good 6SN7s can do, without paying mad prices for NOS Tung-Sols, etc, try these Ruskis:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NOS-Soviet-6H8C-6SN7-6SN7GT-pre-amp-tubes-Brand-New-Matched-Pair-/160730886138?pt=US_Home_Audio_Amplifiers_Preamps&hash=item256c4eaffa

Those are well-priced and will sound excellent :)

Marco.

[DarrenHW]

I’ve had the Fire Bottle Plus (FB) for about a month now and have enjoyed many hours listening to it over the Christmas holidays. I’m not at all qualified to offer any kind of review so will do my best to compare it to the Cambridge Audio 651P (CA) I’ve had for the last 12 months. Hopefully this will prove useful as I imagine there will be a few members on here who like me are looking to upgrade from their first Phono stage and this is where I think (price wise) the FB sits.

System configuration:
Garrard 401, bolted to a bit of chipboard, XTP401 Thrust Pad, Platter Dampening Rings, Reso Matt.
Rega RB300, AT440MLa.
Tubehunter 6N6P Pre Amp.
Audiolab 8200x7.
Celestion Ditton 44.
Klotz MC5000 / MS Audio Starline throughout.

The B52’s – The B52’s.

13755

Instantly evident is the holographic presentation of the FB, music really projects out of the speakers and from the off I find this far more involving than the CA. The decay from the FB is head and shoulders above the CA and it sounds so much more organic. Surface noise is more pronounced than the CA, I don’t know whether this is a good thing or not, but maybe a consideration if you have a lot of far from mint second hand vinyl. Really the only plus point for the CA is that it has a better handle on the bass and goes deeper too.

Yello – Touch.

13756

More of the same from the FB, the 3D presentation doesn’t so much draw you into the music but immerses you in it, the soundstage is not only more forward but more left, right, top and bottom, I’ve only heard this kind presentation at home from a Blu Ray with another 3 speakers involved. This is the sort of sound I’ve been hoping to achieve from my stereo setup. The decay is again vastly superior to the CA and what I find more obvious with this record is the air around instruments. The one area I prefer the CA is in the bass, again I find the CA has more control and depth.

Pink Floyd – The Wall.

13757

I decided to compare the CA and FB with The Wall following on from Francois' review, this is a record that I find brings more balance to this attempt at a review. One issue I’ve had with the FB is that (in my house, with my equipment, IMO, YMMV etc...) it has a little too much gain. This is quite pronounced when playing The Wall, Alan has attempted to help me with this but as I’m pretty clueless I can’t answer his questions, I’m sure however this is something that Alan could overcome if I were to order a custom FB. Again, I prefer the bass from the CA and also find with this record the CA is able to dig out more detail, all be it in a more synthetic manner than the FB.

As far as I’m concerned it’s 2-1 to the FB and I would say this is fair for all the records I’ve listened to in this context. However this is from an objective(ish) point of view which has the “better” soundstage, decay, bass etc... From a subjective(ish) point of view I prefer the FB, it’s far more involving, natural and exciting, in short it’s just so much more musical.

I have been looking into replacing the CA for a while now and have come across the question of detail vs musicality in relation to phono stages and if I had to choose between the CA and FB, it would be the FB for me. I’d encourage anyone who’s thinking about upgrading their phono stage to try the FB, it's well priced, extremly well built and Alan's a pleasure to deal with.

[Firebottle]

Thanks for your opinions on the unit Darren :)

One thing that is cropping up when comparisons are made is the depth of the bass from the FB. I am now thinking of fitting a larger value of coupling capacitor internally, so this should fix any shortcoming.

:cool: Alan

[DarrenHW]

Thanks for your opinions on the unit Darren :)

A pleasure, thanks for letting me audition the FB.


One thing that is cropping up when comparisons are made is the depth of the bass from the FB. I am now thinking of fitting a larger value of coupling capacitor internally, so this should fix any shortcoming.

Intriguing, is this in conjunction with the mods you mentioned earlier in the thread? My Garrard's just about to be decommissioned whilst it has the service it deserves and the new plinth it desperately needs so will be out of action for a few months. I'd be interested in hearing the 2 box FB with cap mods when it's up and running again :cool:.

[Mike g]

Alan - can the larger coupling capacitor be fitted to an existing unit?

[Firebottle]

Yes no problem at all. I am wondering if these observations are when the FB is driving an SS amp with a relatively lower input impedance.

Mike, do you know what impedance the FB is driving into? If you are handy with a soldering iron you could fit them yourself :eek:

:cool: Alan

[Firebottle]

Intriguing, is this in conjunction with the mods you mentioned earlier in the thread?
No the mods are to increase the gain, particularly for MC.

I'd be interested in hearing the 2 box FB with cap mods when it's up and running again :cool:.

Don't quite follow the '2 box when it's up and running again'. There is only one 2 box and that is Ali's.

:cool: Alan

[Ali Tait]

No problem with bass on mine, and that's into a SS amp.

[Mike g]

Input is 130mv 47 ohms on my naim XS. Half thinking about trying naim 32.5 into my nap160 but can't seem to find the specs for the 32.5.

Unfortunately I'm not someone who can solder...

[Ali Tait]

I am though Mike. :-)

[DarrenHW]

Don't quite follow the '2 box when it's up and running again'. There is only one 2 box and that is Ali's.

:cool: Alan

Sorry, grammatically poor :o. I was referring to my Garrard, as in "I'd be interested in hearing the 2 box FB with cap mods when it's (my Garrard) up and running again :cool:".

I didn't realise that only one, 2 box FB existed, is this something you offer or is this Ali's creation?

[Mike g]

Ahh Ali - I may pop down to yours sometime soon then...

[Ali Tait]

No problem mate, just give me a shout.

[Firebottle]

I could re-create a two box version similar to the one Ali has but it would be double the cost of the standard FBs.

I'm working on a two box 'standard' solution (with improved performance) but this will be some way in the future,

:cool: Alan

[Ali Tait]

Sorry, grammatically poor :o. I was referring to my Garrard, as in "I'd be interested in hearing the 2 box FB with cap mods when it's (my Garrard) up and running again :cool:".

I didn't realise that only one, 2 box FB existed, is this something you offer or is this Ali's creation?

Alan built this to my requested specs - separate power supply, MM and MC inputs,operate in both balanced and single ended modes and is built with Mundorf caps and Takman resistors throughout.

[twotone]

I owned Mike's FP plus and really only got to hear it properly before packing it up for Mike and that was through a modded Quad 34 pre-amp and 306 power amp, sounded fantastic, probably the best I've ever heard vinyl in my own system although the Quad's modded phono board is pretty decent.

When I had the original FB MM phono amp (serial no 001) is was brilliant with the Rega Brio-R I had at the time but the plus version and Quad amp set up was superb and no problem with bass either.

On the odd occasion when I managed to hear the FB plus with the XTZ integrated amp the sound was pretty good too but the Quads are great match IMO.

Glad your enjoying the FB Mike.

Regards

Tony