My First LOMC....

[Bluebeat13]

Afternoon everyone,

With the search for a Dino+ or NCPSU proving fruitless I came across a Graham Slee Reflex C with PSU1 for sale s/h and took the plunge. It actually worked out cheaper than what I paid for the Dino combined with what I was willing to pay for an uprated PSU so all good, and hopefully a decent upgrade in quality.

Only issue now is that I only have MM cartridges, currently an Ortofon VMS30 mkII and an AT440MLa. I enjoy the richness that the VMS brings, but also the detail of the AT. And I have not found it too bright. As I mostly listen to electronica ability to create weighty bass is important.

Budget would be around £300, fairly modest for a decent MC I'm sure, but that's what's in the pot. I'm also slightly concerned about spending any more as if I damage it, which has been an occurrence, you can't just buy a new stylus!

I've been looking at the Ortofon Quintet Blue new, but would like to know of any recommendations people may have for a second hand buy. The reflex has a non adjustable input impedance of 100 Ohms, Ortofon recommend >20 so I'm guessing that they would match up ok.

Many thanks in advance,

Tom

Should have included that I use a Manticore Mantra turntable with Roksan Nima arm.

[Clive197]

On a personal note, I would hesitate to buy a s/h cartridge. While I have done that a couple of times and was lucky, there is no way you can really know the provenance. Sellers can (and do) be a little economical with the truth. I have sold a number of cartridges and am honest and there are others out there who are also ethical but sadly you don't know for sure.

[Bluebeat13]

Thanks for your advise Clive, I would be hoping to buy from an established forum member rather than eBay or the like, but understood it could be risky. Maybe I'm best sticking to the Ortofon Quientet new.

[struth]

wont go far wrong with ortofons offerings.

[Haselsh1]

I am also seriously thinking about a Quintet Blue in January but will definitely be buying new as I don't trust those buggers on ebay. I've had a string on LOMC's over the past 35 years or so starting with a Lentek Entre 1 so I do know their virtues and am so looking forward to re-inventing the wheel.

[Clive197]

A true tale. A man came into the store I was working in and asked if I could checkout his cartridge. I did, it was knackered, we could both hear the rubbish emanating from the speakers. I removed the cartridge and returned it to him. He told me that he would think about what cartridge he would get and come back to me. He returned about a month later and bought a fairly expensive model and explained to me that he had a little extra money as he had found a mug on flea bay to buy the knackered cartridge.

[Andrei]

Check out http://stores.ebay.co.uk/2juki-cartridge for some interesting options. Some tasty Zyx a little over budget and Denon 103r well under budget.

[zombilly]

The DL103 is a good cart and no mistake,got wan on my second table and I rly enjoy the way it replays music.

[zombilly]

tho I prefer the VMS30 ON my Thorens. Which I note you already have.

[walpurgis]

The DL103 is a good cart and no mistake,got wan on my second table and I rly enjoy the way it replays music.

I've had a few. I get disapproval on here when I say rude things about them (the basic model). The 103R is the one to have (of those still available in this country). It's a very good MC, probably the best at the price.

[zombilly]

agreed. I was going edit the R in there. When I purchased my 103 funds were strictly limited as I had gone through not wan but two Dynavectors one Ruby and a Karat in less than a year and although the Denon wasnt as good I liked its presentation so it stayed. When I finish my Thorens project I will be looking at getting the Karat retipped at Northwest Analogue.

[walpurgis]

I'm more or less strictly a ZYX user now.

I keep a Goldring Eroica LX and Ortfofon MC25FL as back up (both good MCs though) and have a few decent MMs to throw into the mix once in a while.

[paskinn]

You might find it useful to start with the question; ''what is the best cartridge for my system at £300?''.
The answer might be a MC, but it might just as easily be a good MM from a company such as Ortofon or Nagoka. MCs, especially at this level, are not inherently superior. In fact your chances of getting a top sound are probably greater with a MM or moving-iron cartridge. I'd probably look at Nagoka.
Given that it is almost impossible to get a useful demo, you could ask any audio friends to listen to their cartridges. Many of us end up taking something half-way between an informed choice and a guess. And be cautious of 'received opinion.' The fact that a lot of people believe something is not evidence that it is true....you have to learn from your own experience. There is no substitute. No short cuts. No easy way.

[Clive197]

You might find it useful to start with the question; ''what is the best cartridge for my system at £300?''.
The answer might be a MC, but it might just as easily be a good MM from a company such as Ortofon or Nagoka. MCs, especially at this level, are not inherently superior. In fact your chances of getting a top sound are probably greater with a MM or moving-iron cartridge. I'd probably look at Nagoka.
Given that it is almost impossible to get a useful demo, you could ask any audio friends to listen to their cartridges. Many of us end up taking something half-way between an informed choice and a guess. And be cautious of 'received opinion.' The fact that a lot of people believe something is not evidence that it is true....you have to learn from your own experience. There is no substitute. No short cuts. No easy way.

+1. I've probably owned over twenty or so cartridges over the last 45 years and heard many more when I was in retail. At the end of the day you have to find out which cartridge presses YOUR buttons for yourself.
The lack of demonstration in stores doesn't help and advice from anyone including myself is always going to to be flawed by our own tastes. There is no simple answer.

[zombilly]

Plus wans to both above as true. But Toms question was pretty specific. He has invested in an MC phono stage and would now like to use it with an sub £300 cartridge. The answers given seem to fit the bill.

[struth]

I have so far resisted the temptation to go for a low mc, as has been said, they are both expensive and difficult to choose for both you and your system. I don't hear many and although would have liked to, unless I get the chance to get a cheap buy I wont bother, and will stick to mm or homc. But as I said I believe for most, the ortofons are as good as any.

[walpurgis]

Grant. If you'd like to try out the low output MC way of life, I'll lend you a decent one with an SUT set (as long as you're careful with it all). Although you do realise, there'll be no going back once you heard what it can do. :)

[struth]

Grant. If you'd like to try out the low output MC way of life, I'll lend you a decent one with an SUT set (as long as you're careful with it all). Although you do realise, there'll be no going back once you heard what it can do. :)

thanks for the offer Geoff.....i will consider it carefully and mull over the potential consequences.:eek:

[Andrei]

You might find it useful to start with the question; ''what is the best cartridge for my system at £300?''.
The answer might be a MC, but it might just as easily be a good MM from a company such as Ortofon or Nagoka. MCs, especially at this level, are not inherently superior. In fact your chances of getting a top sound are probably greater with a MM or moving-iron cartridge. I'd probably look at Nagoka.
Given that it is almost impossible to get a useful demo, you could ask any audio friends to listen to their cartridges. Many of us end up taking something half-way between an informed choice and a guess. And be cautious of 'received opinion.' The fact that a lot of people believe something is not evidence that it is true....you have to learn from your own experience. There is no substitute. No short cuts. No easy way.

:exactly:

Another way of looking at it is this: You need X amount of gain. Some of that can be done on the cartridge (MM or high output MC) or it can be done with a MC phono stage (or a phonostage with a Step Up Transformer). You may well be sonically better off having that gain done on the cartridge. In fact there are other benefits of a MM cartridge, for example you can usually change the stylus when it is worn.

[Bluebeat13]

Thanks everyone for your inputs, the advise is much appreciated. I'm aware that just because a cartridge is moving coil rather than magnet it is not inherently better. However, as Zombilly and the OP said I've got a new MC phono stage and I want to play with it! There's a thousand MC cartridges out there, I just want to narrow it down slightly by using other people's experiences.

Where would be the fun if I were to get it right first time?!

[walpurgis]

You will not find anything even coming close to this at the price:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/191451340270?_trksid=p2060778.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

I know. I've probably had a hundred MCs and I've got one of these (amongst others). It's bloody marvellous by any standards and for this money, amazing. This is quoted as low usage and at 100 hours it is just about 'run in'. I have dearer ZYX MCs, but the R50 is just great and at the price nothing else in the way of MCs will touch it (they're around £800 new by the way). The guy is open to offers!

To give you an idea, I was using a very nice Denon DL-103R prior to buying the ZYX. There's no comparison. the R50 takes you into a different world of sound.

[zombilly]

What walpurgis said.

[Bluebeat13]

Thanks for the heads up Geoff, I'll give the guy a shout.

Edit: At £350 plus £20 postage it's the top of my budget and a bit of a risk from a guy I don't know. Was hoping to be able to do a deal with cash on collection but he's all the way up in Dunfermline! I've made him an offer, we'll see what comes.

[marvi]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/191451340270?_trksid=p2060778.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

I have dearer ZYX MCs, but the R50 is just great and at the price nothing else in the way of MCs will touch it (they're around £800 new by the way).

Have just had a look & the new price in uk is actually £510.64 (Origin Live), or £515 (Analogue Seduction). Obviously further above budget, but maybe the ebay one isn't quite as big a bargain. I would want to be absolutely certain before buying a used cartridge - especially somewhere like ebay.

[walpurgis]

Have just had a look & the new price in uk is actually £510.64 (Origin Live), or £515 (Analogue Seduction). Obviously further above budget, but maybe the ebay one isn't quite as big a bargain. I would want to be absolutely certain before buying a used cartridge - especially somewhere like ebay.

Oh. Looks like prices must have dropped a bit. I've seen them for a lot more.

I've had three R50 MCs, two second hand and not had any problems. I also have a second hand R100 H and a R100 H2 bought new. I can't speak highly enough about these cartridges. The R50 despite being the cheaper is just superb. (I may get an R100 Yatra if I see one at the right price. I've wanted one for a while, but can't justify the £1200 at the moment)

[marvi]

Were the R50s you've used also the 'H' model Geoff? Both the low output and 'H' versions seem to be the same price.

[walpurgis]

Were the R50s you've used also the 'H' model Geoff? Both the low output and 'H' versions seem to be the same price.

Yes. The H version is a regular low output MC. The low output model is rather lower. Not sure why ZYX have extra low output types, may be less moving mass I suppose due to smaller coils.

[zombilly]

Another plan Tom could be to look into having the Dynavector repaired. I am not shure how much that would be but read somewan on Northwest Analogue saying an identical repair was the same as the trade in value. Or you could enquire about the trade in value against a new Dynavector. Analogue seduction also offer a repair option on the cartridge. I really liked the sound of the Dynos,I just found them to be a little delicate in use. I may make an enquirey myself and will passs on what is said and quote given.

[Bluebeat13]

Well I decided to take a risk and go for the ZYX! The guy dropped his price a bit and knocked of the £20 postage so I figured what the heck!

Thanks everyone for your input, I'd particularly like to thank Zombilly, who very generously donated me his Ruby. It requires a rebuild, but I'll be saving up and sending it away when I can. Looking forward to seeing how this old 'gem' sounds.

In the mean time I can't wait for the ZYX to turn up so I can give it a spin. Thanks again everyone!

[walpurgis]

Well I decided to take a risk and go for the ZYX!

Ha Ha. You beat me to it! I kept it on my eBay watch list and was toying with the idea of buying it as an extra spare MC, then I saw it was sold :(.

I reckon you'll be over the moon with it. The lack of colouration and the huge soundstage and massive depth are just stunning.

Don't forget to tell us how you find it sounds.

[Andrei]

Ha Ha. You beat me to it! I kept it on my eBay watch list and was toying with the idea of buying it as an extra spare MC, then I saw it was sold :(.

I reckon you'll be over the moon with it. The lack of colouration and the huge soundstage and massive depth are just stunning.

Don't forget to tell us how you find it sounds.
+1
I have not heard a Zyx; but when, or I should say IF, I am in funds again then this probably the brand I would consider as a second cartridge.
PS anyone compared them with Benz?

[Si74]

Just typed a long answer & lost it,
ZYX nice, but never thought they met the hype and that's after spending $2,600
on one

Benz from lots of experience, better value

There isn't much logic to this, sometimes you hit magic and sometimes
a 25 year dream falls flat:

Lenco,RB 250, AT95e had me gobsmacked vs Oracle/kuzma/koetsu
LP 12, Syrinx PU 2, wood body Grado
Oracle, Kuzma Stogi S, Benz Glider
Lenco PU 7, Audio Note IO

Andy's Xerxes Morch Benz wood was special

The above left me astounded,
I could list dozens of combos costing thousands more that have been great hi-fi
but did nothing for me musically meaning they did not have me searching for long
unheard albums

funny old game in it?

[Thebiglebowski]

Well I decided to take a risk and go for the ZYX! The guy dropped his price a bit and knocked of the £20 postage so I figured what the heck!

Thanks everyone for your input, I'd particularly like to thank Zombilly, who very generously donated me his Ruby. It requires a rebuild, but I'll be saving up and sending it away when I can. Looking forward to seeing how this old 'gem' sounds.

In the mean time I can't wait for the ZYX to turn up so I can give it a spin. Thanks again everyone!

I sold that zyx to him and can assure it is in great condition, I bought it ex demo with about 10 hours and sold it to him a few months ago with about 50hrs on it. I bought a benz ace s but am going back to zyx with an R100. The Zyx R50 is a fantastic cart and you'll really enjoy it.

[Ali Tait]

That was me!

Only sold it due to losing my job.

[Ali Tait]

Have just had a look & the new price in uk is actually £510.64 (Origin Live), or £515 (Analogue Seduction). Obviously further above budget, but maybe the ebay one isn't quite as big a bargain. I would want to be absolutely certain before buying a used cartridge - especially somewhere like ebay.

Thanks for the vote of confidence. ;)

[Ali Tait]

BTW, yes it's a great cart.

[Bluebeat13]

Evening gents.

Received the cart on a Monday and have been playing around with set up tonight. Unfortunately I've been having some problems. Mounted it in the Nima no bother, set the VTF to 2.2g, aligned it using an audio origami protractor and set azimuth and VTA dead level using a tiny headshell bubble level. Span some records and heard some good things but something wasn't quite right. Stuck on my trusty copy ofthe HFN test record and I'm getting lots of buzzing distortion on both channels of every bias and tracking track. Took the cart of and put my Ortofon back on, re-set and it sails through all but the last tests.

Am I doing something wrong here? is this a tricky cart to set up? How did you guys have it set? I've never had any trouble setting up any other carts and I've never had distortion on both channels on the test record before.

Any help very much appreciated..

Tom

[walpurgis]

Are you sure the tracking force is accurate? I use a small digital scale just to be on the safe side. 2.2g sounds about right. I reckon it may pay to experiment with VTA. I've not had tracking problems with any ZYX (or other cart) in my Mission 774 arm.

[struth]

Not a great lover of test records. Better to play albums you know well and make some minor adjustments til your ears say Bingo.

[Bluebeat13]

I used a digital scale, tried at 2g, 2.5g, even went up to 2.8g and I still have the same buzzing on both channels on the test tracks. Never had this before. Looking at the stylus under a magnifying glass the diamond itself looks tiny at the end of the canteliver. Is this a characteristic of the ZYX?

[walpurgis]

I used a digital scale, tried at 2g, 2.5g, even went up to 2.8g and I still have the same buzzing on both channels on the test tracks. Never had this before. Looking at the stylus under a magnifying glass the diamond itself looks tiny at the end of the canteliver. Is this a characteristic of the ZYX?

The tips do look small. As Grant suggests, a test record may not be telling you much. Try playing some music.

I don't know which HFN record you have, but the tracking tests may well have been produced long before modern styli profiles were thought of.

[Si74]

I wouldn't be tracking it at 2.8g
My experience the Airy seemed to be very fussy about vta in unipivots, don't know why.
Less fussy in gimbal arms.
My Airy had the silver base to add weight. Speaking with J7 at the time, we decided it
worked best in arms with more effective mass and at the higher end of the specced
tracking weight (2.2g I think).
My biggest beef was the stepped design of the cantilever seemed prone to collecting any dirt,
dust on the records.
Don't mean I play filthy records but in comparison to other cartridges it always seemed
to attract crap.
Not sure the effective mass of the Nima but might be worth adding some mass at the headshell.
Airy was better on a Kuzma Stogi S with the Cartridgemans Isolator (about 2.5g) than it was
mounted direct.
Never heard any sign of mistracking but never tried it on my test record.

[walpurgis]

How are you getting on with the cartridge tracking Tom?

[Thebiglebowski]

2.8g seems very high to me, I had it set to 1.7g which sounded best on a Rega RP6 with RB303 arm. The R50 does have a tiny diamond as its a fine line cut.

I'd reduce the force to 1.7g have it slightly heel up and use the Baerwald protractor off vinyl engine to set it up to see if that improves things.