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Alex_UK
12-08-2009, 14:26
As “threatened” yesterday and reminded by DaveC…

I've always accepted that interconnects and speaker cable will have a big contribution to the overall sound quality of my system, but I have always been sceptical of the claims made for mains conditioners - it just didn't seem logical to me.

At the risk of swearing, in What Hi-Fi mag, there is a regular column called "The Big Question" – where a panel of 3 readers are subjected to some blind listening, usually involving improving the system and reporting what the panel felt. I am sure it is all heavily edited and I take it with a pinch of salt, but this month's is all about cables – including mains and a cheap mains conditioner. The panel felt that the mains conditioner (made by Lindy, rrp £40 with six outlets) and clearer-audio mains leads (about £30 a pop) made the biggest difference out of all the changes (interconnects, and speakers, going from freebies and bell wire to decent stuff.) After reading the article, I immediately started thinking that if 3 readers in blind testing noticed the biggest difference in cables was with a mains conditioner, then maybe I ought to put aside my preconceptions and give it a go. I still thought the Lindy one featured in the article was a bridge too far though, when Amazon where offering a very similar Tacima 6 way for £24.99 delivered (I'm not made of money! I’ve since found out that they are one and the same unit anyway!)

Bear in mind that this was a few weeks back, and prior to my Beresford DAC or Creek amp - I'd been A/B comparing an Afterlife album (Speck of Gold) on CD vs. Spotify on a laptop with Audigy soundcard so was quite settled into the album, and pleased (in a way) that the laptop was still way way behind my CD player. (Not so now I have the Caiman Standac of course!) Then I plugged the CD player and amp (13 year old Audiolab 8000S) into the Tacima mains conditioner. I certainly won't pretend that the difference was earth shattering, or like listening to a new system, but the most immediate difference was that at any given volume setting, the system was now louder (quite a lot louder) than it was before. I’ve known this amp for 13 years, so I can assure you it was definitely the case, especially lower down the volume range. I can't explain why that should be, as I am not technical - anyone out there that can, I would be pleased to know!

Before I introduced all the other new kit I listened to a few well-known albums, and I think there was also a definite increase in the brightness of the sound, though could always be the placebo effect of course... but it certainly seems to have been "a good thing". I guess I could go back to a normal power supply and see if I could tell any difference going back…

I’ve since seen on the WHFI Forum that another user has said pretty much the same thing – not sure if anyone else has any experiences – I’m certainly a lot more open minded now about the effect mains power can have on system – I will shortly be trying a similar experiment on the AV system.

John
12-08-2009, 14:48
from my limited experience mains cabling and condictioners effect very from place to place I live in a 1930s house close to an industrial area and use balanced mains and good quality mains cables. Even my skeptical friends can hear the difference as it is not subtle but I also been round friends where cabling and condictioners has made no difference :confused:

DSJR
12-08-2009, 19:28
When I lived in Luton (yech!!), the mains quality was awful and I found that cable ferrites and a high current mains filter on the CD player worked well, the bass going mechanical and tuneless by comparison. I used the £200 Chord Co Clearway (since exposed as a [Farnell] "Roxburgh" 6A filter @ £36 plus VAT), but not driving a multitude of individual items - one filter box per source unit.

Where we live now, on the Suffolk coast, the mains is very good, the docks a few miles away having their own supply apparently. Filters make beggar all difference here, despite my system sounding clearer than it has in years.

Jason P
26-08-2009, 16:57
I've got one too - see this thread (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2400) for more on it.

So far my experience has been positive. I've not noticed an appreciable loss of dynamics plugging the amp in to the Tacima - but I don't do headbanging loud, and the NAD I'm using is a gutsy little blighter so that may be why.

My overall impression was that the noise floor was lowered, giving the music more dynamic 'slam' - this may be the perceived increase in loudness. Individual detailing was easier to follow, and the soundstage seemed better defined - but I'm having problems with the room/speaker/listening position at the mo so don't take it as wrote.

To my ears, on my relatively humble system, its a benefit that I'm happy with. Bear in mind I live in the country with aerial mains and a somewhat fluctuating supply, so as ever this may account for its effectiveness. Lord knows what a few hundred quid's worth of Isotek or some other exotica would do!!

Jason

DSJR
26-08-2009, 17:16
Alex, I don't know whether you've taken this any further, as mains in Ipswich would be different I suspect than 15 miles down the road, but much modern gear should be fairly immune from mains effects compared to thirty years ago. Naim amps and sources may be different because of their "quirks," although the Super-cap and XPS supplies were immune to mains filters such as the Clearway, unlike all Linns CD players inclusing the CD12, which sounded more recessed with one in-line.

Alex_UK
26-08-2009, 22:19
TBH, not yet Dave, too much new music to listen to courtesy of all you blighters giving me ideas! ;)

Well, my house is newish (7 years old) so I suspect a reasonable supply/circuit, though the way the oven we replaced yesterday was wired in, I wouldn't bet on it! I will try and have a shift around with leads and stuff, but maybe not this weekend - consignments expected including Ozrics, Camel, System 7, Tangerine Dream, Vangelis, & Gong - they may get in the way!

DSJR
27-08-2009, 17:55
You've gotta change that QED SA speaker wire though, but before you do, make sure the writing goes back towards the amp FROM the speakers. I was convinced at the time it was better that way, though the way this stuff compresses dynamics is unbelievable.....

Alex_UK
27-08-2009, 23:14
OK, well I'm open to suggestions, what cable would you recommend Dave?

DSJR
28-08-2009, 12:23
Something with lowish resistance. Mark Grant has what looks to be a neat cable (has Marco tried it?) and CableTalk Excel4 bi-wire was available cheap on ebay not that long ago (Talk 4.1 [dumbell] and Excel4 [fig 8]) and this always annihilated QED SA in a side by side comparison. I remember a WTF awards dinner I attended when QED SA won yet again. The groans that came up from the floor was palpable.....

I also like the Van Damme round blue stuff. the 2.5mm or 4mm preferably is a fine universal wire.

I fight shy of the transparent-jacket kind of wires personally, as I've seen too many with the internal strands going off and staining the jacket. Perhaps this isn't a problem if the wires are properly terminated and even replaced every few years...

Finally, Maplin's (opposite the old Woolies store) do some 50 strand general wire (possibly a thicker one) which you can buy in red and black (other colours too) and gently twist together for £2pm approx total. The wire I bought from there looks identical to that used by Epos in their ES14 speakers and this was good stuff..

http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=6200

The 32A flexible wire may be good as well.. http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=9910 although I've always found the mega-stranded style of speaker cable - soggy sounding..

Alex_UK
28-08-2009, 12:35
Thanks Dave - I mainly ended up with the QED SA just because it was white and quite thin, and doesn't show too much draped around the room, rather than any accolades. I'll investigate those options - In fact I've got some "dumbell" Talk cables somewhere (don't remember what model - would have been budget though) from my "Bachelor Pad" days I could try to see what the difference is... The Mark Grant option sounds viable.

Quick anecdote, my worst experience of speaker cabling was making my own from Cat5 computer network cable - we re-cabled the office about 8 years ago, and had loads spare, I'd vaguely heard people using it to plait their own - spent days and days making the two cables, plugged them in, and they sounded absolutely awful... I think I had cross wired at least one twisted pair in each, or something, but they went straight in the bin!

EDIT: Mark Grant stuff is white anyway, will give that a go I think - £2.50 a metre!

DSJR
28-08-2009, 12:45
Cable talk used 42 reasonable strands per conductor (can't remember the gauge) in their dumbell wires (same as Linn K20 and Naim A4). The difference between 3.1 and 4.1 is the insulation material, the cream coloured 4.1/E4 insulation supposedly not reactive chemically with the copper as some insulations can be apparently. Using popular priced speakers such as yours, the QED SA made louder bits quieter and quiet bits louder, as well as limiting bass definition for some reason. being a thin cable is what sold this stuff and the godawful QED Micro, which many Sevenoaks branches sold as their standard speaker cable for all applications, despite it harking back to the bell-wire days I thought gone forever.

I'd try to stay with decent gauge "decent" copper wire. the thicker the high-quality cables, the less "splatter" one seems to hear - a reason no-doubt why marco uses VDH "The Wind" cables (I'd love to know the donor wires for this latter cable - I bet it's really inexpensive...).

Alex_UK
28-08-2009, 12:51
It is Talk 4 (not 4.1, so must be quite old) - but remembered why I didn't use them now - too short for the current arrangement. And they are doing fine in the 2nd/3rd system between the Audiolab and Kefs anyway, so will just get some new I think. Presume the current wisdom still to keep each side the same length, even if you don't need it on one side? Thanks for your help Dave.

DSJR
28-08-2009, 12:58
Keeping the same length is important if the amp has a poor damping factor or mild instability where the cable is used as part of the ususl output inductor, as the total resistance as seen by the amp could be an issue. In practice, I found that lengths such as 3m and 5m, or 5m and 8m of low resistance cable made no audible difference at all and far superior to having tons of excess coiled or tied up behind the closest speaker...

Alex_UK
29-08-2009, 18:18
Maybe I ought to start a new thread, but as I can't upset the originator (that was me!) I'll stick with it here. Well, I duly ordered the Mark Grant speaker cable - extremely reasonable at only £2.50 p.m. Belden-5000UP-White - and despite ordering late yesterday afternoon, it was here at 9.30 this morning - what service!

Great to work with, the insulation is soft and pliable and easy to strip. Knocked up a couple of pairs of jumper cables first, then swapped over the bananas from the old cables. Installed them, but that's really where the fun stops, as I've got a house full this weekend - managed to grab a bit of a listen, and the system has been on in the backround, and all sounds good so far, but I need to sit down and have a proper listen.

I presume speaker cables need a burn in? I'll stick the TV through them tonight to help speed up the process, then a proper chance to report on the changes (hopefully, improvements, but of course that's not a given, is it?...) as soon as I can.

DSJR
29-08-2009, 20:40
I doubt the Belden stuff will need a burn-in, but your senses will need to aclimatise to the different appearance of the cables...;)

Alex_UK
31-08-2009, 23:05
Well, the cables have been doing their "duty" for the past couple of days, with a bit of background music mainly, but tonight I've had my first chance to listen "properly" - volume limitations with an 11 month old upstairs obviously being a consideration. And the first thing I can report with the Mark Grant speaker cable is an increase in overall volume - normal late night listening has been fine at 15 on the Creek amp, but 13 seems about right now - would this really be down to the cables? Must be - it's the only thing that has changed...

So, tomorrow, maybe a little louder, but so far, trying some female vocals (Regina Spektor, A Fine Frenzy (Alison Sudol), Tori Amos) the main thing I have noticed is an improvement in sibilance - particularly on the vocal - but the most obvious change is piano (on these recordings) - I can't describe it as anything other than "more life-like" - It's been a long while since I played a real piano (badly) myself, but I can still tell that what I am hearing sounds more like a real one - though they are probably synthesized of course! Too early (and conversley too late, too) to make a real conclusion, but even to a cloth ears like me on a late night audition I think I need to say thanks to DSJR Dave for the tip.

So, next question is, would you recommend a change in any other cables, sticking with CD for the moment as that is 90% of my listening - one of Mike Homar's digi coax jobbies is in flight, to connect the CD player to the Caiman. The Caiman to amp is taken care of with a pair of Silver High Breed ICs (These) (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280380131870) which were cheapish, yet appear to get the job done - any other suggestions to replace them, or are they ok?

aBe
29-09-2009, 07:10
Well, I had the Tacima in place for my system too.
I do agree with Jason, the Tacima might have helped in reducing the noise floor (and 'darkened' the background in the process). Overall it makes everything sounds better compared to el-cheapo multi gang extension unit.

But, the most drastic improvement came through recently when I plugged in the Tacima onto an AVR <600VA>, and drawn the power for all the SMPS sources; including Standac via the Tacima.

The result was just breathtaking!
The background had turned to 'black' rather than just 'dark'.
The soundstage expanded. The musical timing relaxed its pace.
Everything was just easier to follow..

However do note that my Creek amp did not go well with the new setup, (too tardy sounding and recessed top end) it sounds better with the juice extracted directly from the mains wall outlet though.

Alex_UK
29-09-2009, 20:58
Hi aBe - what model amp do you have - I have a Creek too, but not tried it unfiltered yet... Now doing it!

Shanedudddy2
30-09-2009, 10:28
Ordered the Tacima one just then...will post how it goes here and at work..where I HOPE it fixes the shitty sound which i believe is caused from bad power source at the office in the city.

Alex_UK
30-09-2009, 11:27
As Neil suggested in the other thread (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2400) and born out by aBe above, I moved the amp from the Tacima conditioner last night (it had always been plugged into it since purchase) into unfiltered (but still surge protected) mains - difficult to be sure (because for the first time in ages I have the house to myself, and the volume has therefore gone up...) but it is sounding much more open, particularly the treble which also sounds less metallic, I think. Will try swapping back and a/b the same album to see for sure, but at the moment would concurr that the amp is best left unfiltered.

aBe
01-10-2009, 03:43
As Neil suggested in the other thread (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2400) and born out by aBe above, I moved the amp from the Tacima conditioner last night (it had always been plugged into it since purchase) into unfiltered (but still surge protected) mains - difficult to be sure (because for the first time in ages I have the house to myself, and the volume has therefore gone up...) but it is sounding much more open, particularly the treble which also sounds less metallic, I think. Will try swapping back and a/b the same album to see for sure, but at the moment would concurr that the amp is best left unfiltered.

Hi Alex,

Mine is Creek 4330 MKII with remote control.
So far, it's the best amp that I've owned. Very warm and plays music with full emotion. (despite its looks and price)

I have tried several permutations of power supply connection, i.e. amp -Tacima-Mains, amp-AVR-Mains, amp-Tacima-AVR-Mains..you name it.
But I still come back to direct power connection to Mains outlet.

However, there's still one more 'affordable' tweak that I'd like to try - that is replacing the existing IEC socket say...with Tyco RFI Filtered IEC ones, and perhaps the power cord to a Belden unit too.

Hope that you'll succeed in finding the best way to make your Creek sounds better as well..

hifinutt
03-01-2010, 21:11
i use a sigmas mains conditioner and it makes a big difference. i was without it recently while it had an upgrade and boy did i notice it.