View Full Version : Ar turntable...if it aint broke......
Well here's an interesting story,i bought one of these lovely turntables from George (seoirse2002)and being used to a revolver previously(not a sprung turntable) i thought the springs seemed a little soft or tired. i decided to get some from the states from vinyl nirvana,they arrived yesterday and today i fitted them. i know from reading up that originally AR used a different rate spring for the point nearest the tonearm to allow for the extra weight,the ones from the states don't,all 3 are the same.
after fitting them something just didn't sound right to my ears,i spent most of the afternoon playing the hifi news test record and ended up returning to where i had the tracking weight and anti-skate already set,everything else was double checked, cartridge alignment,turntable level etc. still something was lacking!
out of a process of elimination i decided to put the original springs back on,re checked the platter level and plinth level.
BANG! everything is now back to sounding right again,i so pleased as i thought i was going insane!!
its hard to describe what was lacking,clarity i suppose sort of sums it up,it now sounds spot on.
what a day! and lesson learnt!
awkwardbydesign
29-11-2014, 20:37
There's no substitute for personal experience. :)
oh yes im all for learning by your mistakes,who'd of thought the springs would make that much difference,i guess that's why a lot of people go to the trouble of adding lead to compensate for the tonearm spring. i did ask about this and was told id have to have golden ears to tell the difference,seems i have golden ears then! lol.
Mark Pope
30-11-2014, 12:46
My late father was a motor mechanic - one of his favourite phrases was "Cars are like women. Best left alone when they are all right"...same applies to hi-fi I find.
:)
Jamie,
We discussed this in another link. Have you thought of Linn springs? They may fit the AR. I also thought of getting replacement springs from Vinyl Nirvana, but you have given me second thoughts. Are you definitely keeping the old springs?
Await your reply. many thanks,
T12:)
Spectral Morn
03-12-2014, 23:43
Just put away my Oracle Delphi maintenance kit (I needed some bearing oil, ended up using SME bearing oil instead) and in it the replacement springs are colour coded to indicate different strengths to allow correct bounce, balancing for different tonearms.
Bit shocking the kit you were supplied didn't suit the AR, its shocking how many suppliers don't have a clue or stock the correct bits to suit the stuff they are supposed to be knowledgeable about supplying.
The process you embarked on should have worked, except you hadn't been supplied with all you needed, so not your fault. I can imagine how frustrated you must have felt.
Regards Neil
Mr Kipling
04-12-2014, 01:00
Jamie,
We discussed this in another link. Have you thought of Linn springs? They may fit the AR. I also thought of getting replacement springs from Vinyl Nirvana, but you have given me second thoughts. Are you definitely keeping the old springs?
Await your reply. many thanks,
T12:)
The Linn springs will have a different compression rate to cater for the heavier platter compared to the AR which has a lighter platter, I would have thought. You won't get the same bounce.
Good point. But, you can always add weight to the underside of the platter, to bring it up to linn weight. Maybe this is too much of a Heath Robinson approach, but might be fun to try out.
T12
killie99
04-12-2014, 11:52
Good point. But, you can always add weight to the underside of the platter, to bring it up to linn weight. Maybe this is too much of a Heath Robinson approach, but might be fun to try out.
T12
Hmmm :scratch: i wouldn't recommend doing that as the platter will end up waaaay out of balance and lead to all sorts of other issues, biggest one being wear to the bearing due to uneven weight distribution.
Hmmm :scratch: i wouldn't recommend doing that as the platter will end up waaaay out of balance and lead to all sorts of other issues, biggest one being wear to the bearing due to uneven weight distribution.
that shouldn't happen in theory as once the weight issue is sorted out you just level the platter with the spring height.
i've got my deck sounded great now back on the original springs,so i wont be putting the vinyl nirvana springs back on again even though i did prefer the more firmer bounce.shame but im putting it down to experience.
killie99
04-12-2014, 16:56
sorry, got to disagree, once it's out of balance it's out of balance and will slowly, but surely, destroy the bearing.
how do you mean then? if the platter is level how can it be out of balance?
unless you mean out of balance under spring compression due to 1 out of the 3 springs being a different tension?
killie99
04-12-2014, 20:49
Out of balance as in if you balance the platter at it's true centre point it won't balance due to uneven distribution of weight. A bit like your car wheels that have to be balanced periodically (usually when you replace a tyre) so that your steering wheel doesn't shake when you drive the car - you get the shaking effect even if the car wheel is out of balance by a very small amount - smallest weights I think for car wheels are 5 grams.
Kimi Raikkonen famously had the suspension on his McLaren F1 car disintegrate due to an out of balance wheel that was caused by him flat spotting the tyre:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMhCRXyG2_E
As well as damaging the bearing you will have speed stability problems as the new off centre balance point will cause the platter to speed up and slow down (albeit a very small speed difference)
Definitely not something I'd recommend you do with any decent turntable.
As well as damaging the bearing you will have speed stability problems as the new off centre balance point will cause the platter to speed up and slow down (albeit a very small speed difference). Definitely not something I'd recommend you do with any decent turntable.
+1 :thumbsup:
Out of balance as in if you balance the platter at it's true centre point it won't balance due to uneven distribution of weight. A bit like your car wheels that have to be balanced periodically (usually when you replace a tyre) so that your steering wheel doesn't shake when you drive the car - you get the shaking effect even if the car wheel is out of balance by a very small amount - smallest weights I think for car wheels are 5 grams.
Kimi Raikkonen famously had the suspension on his McLaren F1 car disintegrate due to an out of balance wheel that was caused by him flat spotting the tyre:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMhCRXyG2_E
As well as damaging the bearing you will have speed stability problems as the new off centre balance point will cause the platter to speed up and slow down (albeit a very small speed difference)
Definitely not something I'd recommend you do with any decent turntable.
agree on that mate.
Kimi's wheel was doing a little more than 33 1/3 rpm! . Yes a platter needs to be in balance, but you can easily calculate the effect of being a couple of grams out of balance at that speed, and it is small indeed. A sleeve bearing will not be worm in the slightest as a result, although it is certainly good engineering practise to maintain it, assuming the platter was dynamically balanced in the first place.
Martyn Miles
03-01-2015, 03:57
oh yes im all for learning by your mistakes,who'd of thought the springs would make that much difference,i guess that's why a lot of people go to the trouble of adding lead to compensate for the tonearm spring. i did ask about this and was told id have to have golden ears to tell the difference,seems i have golden ears then! lol.
When it comes to the AR XA , the best advice is 'leave well alone' if it's working.
Ed. Villchur knew what he was doing when it came to audio.
A lot of 'modern' designers could do well to heed his advice...
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