View Full Version : hifi news test record....my head hurts!
well i got mine a few days ago and after putting uprated springs on my AR i thought id see how she performs.
the bias/anti-skate tests had distortion so after adjusting from 2.2 to just over 2.5 (my tracking weight is 2.2) they went away. whats doing my head in is my turntable sounds better to my ears with the dial back down to 2.2! a brief search on Google and it seems a lot of people find this.
whats your thoughts?
well i got mine a few days ago and after putting uprated springs on my AR i thought id see how she performs.
the bias/anti-skate tests had distortion so after adjusting from 2.2 to just over 2.5 (my tracking weight is 2.2) they went away. whats doing my head in is my turntable sounds better to my ears with the dial back down to 2.2! a brief search on Google and it seems a lot of people find this.
whats your thoughts?
If it sounds better to you set at 2.2, then leave it at that. Simple!
I find that often I need only use half the bias figure (e.g. if the cartridge is tracking at 2.5g, I need only 1.25 - 1.5g of bias). Test records are useful but one shouldn't be ruled by them: how representitive of real music are the test tones used to set up the bias/anti-skate?
The Barbarian
29-11-2014, 14:22
follow your lug-holes simples.
yeah i kinda thought that mate,although i just changed the tracking weight to suit the bias and everything's sweet.
nope bollocks your right,im sticking to what it was before the bloody record arrived! lol.
cheers guys.
Never used a test record in my life to set up a T/T, just ears and experience! However, they can be useful devices for novices, bizarre beings who can’t trust their ears, and those who prefer a more methodical/scientific approach to the job.
Bottom line is, if it sounds better one way, to your ears, than it does using the test record, then go with what yer lugs tell you!! :exactly:
Marco.
Oldpinkman
29-11-2014, 17:05
Hfs overbias's every time I use it. I know heaps of folk deride it but an old 12" laser disc works well for me. Too many arm manufacturers dial settings are worse than useless. Trouble is, however good your hearing is, however much you live by "trust the Lugholes" you can't hear accelerated stylus wear. And that is a significant consequence of wrong antiskate. :eek:
thanks marco, I'll consider myself well and truly patronized hee hee
Trouble is, however good your hearing is, however much you live by "trust the Lugholes" you can't hear accelerated stylus wear. And that is a significant consequence of wrong antiskate. :eek:
Not if your ears get it right in the first place, in which case the wear won’t happen! ;)
Marco.
thanks marco, I'll consider myself well and truly patronized hee hee
Lol - bottom line is that, despite what the test record said, you’ve gone with what sounded right to YOU, which is precisely the right thing to do! :)
For me, test records and any other T/T measurement/set-up apparatus, is only good for getting you in the right ‘ballpark’, as it were - after that, it’s lughole time.
Marco.
Is that the case though? If it sounds right it is right, set up wise. That is to avoid uneven/accelerated wear on the stylus? I've read that the problem with test records is that, like any record, they can suffer from poor pressing quality. So may not be accurate in themselves which makes them a bit useless for their intended purpose.
Is that the case though?
Well, you can’t just ‘guess’ the correct tracking force (unless you’re very lucky).
Initially, that has to be measured with a stylus force gauge, using figures quoted from the cartridge manufacturer’s recommended VTF range, then you use your ears to 'fine-tune’ the results to your satisfaction, which is the same process when setting VTA, azimuth or any other adjustment on a turntable.
The important things is that the final analysis is done by ear, rather than relying on what test measurements say.
Marco.
I was thinking specifically of ant-skate.
Yeah, I’ve always done that by ear, and in 30 years of using T/Ts, never had any problems. In my experience, bias adjustment (anti-skate) is usually around 0.3-0.5g less than the optimal VTF.
For example, the DL-103 I used to record the Sinatra CDR I sent you, was set at 2.6g VTF, and bias at 2.3.
Marco.
The Barbarian
29-11-2014, 19:30
:exactly:
Ammonite Audio
29-11-2014, 19:31
Yeah, I’ve always done that by ear, and in 30 years of using T/Ts, never had any problems. In my experience, bias adjustment (anti-skate) is usually around 0.3-0.5g less than the optimal VTF.
For example, the DL-103 I used to record the Sinatra CDR I sent you, was set at 2.6g VTF, and bias at 2.3.
Marco.
Fine as long as the bias mechanism has a scale of some sort!
Yup, that’s usually the case with the Jap tonearms I use. If not, just adjust whatever anti-skate gauge is available on your tonearm, until things sound best. Job done! :)
Marco.
Clive197
30-11-2014, 08:53
I use the HiFi News test record.......not to set the arm/cartridge up but to find out if the combo is any good. Your quite right in setting up by sound and experience and if it doesn't track the hardest band, so what! If it bothers you, buy a better arm and cartridge.
After over forty years of owning and setting up manyTT's I've only now got a arm/cartridge combo that does track all the test bands, Ye Ha.
prestonchipfryer
30-11-2014, 09:03
I use the HiFi News test record.......not to set the arm/cartridge up but to find out if the combo is any good. Your quite right in setting up by sound and experience and if it doesn't track the hardest band, so what! If it bothers you, buy a better arm and cartridge.
After over forty years of owning and setting up manyTT's I've only now got a arm/cartridge combo that does track all the test bands, Ye Ha.
What is your favourite test track? :lol: Seriously, it doesn't matter if your arm/cart can pass all the test tracks ever invented. Your ears MUST be the final arbiter.
;)
Clive197
30-11-2014, 09:11
What is your favourite test track? :lol: Seriously, it doesn't matter if your arm/cart can pass all the test tracks ever invented. Your ears MUST be the final arbiter.
;)
Didn't I just say that.....
Oldpinkman
30-11-2014, 09:51
Yeah, I’ve always done that by ear, and in 30 years of using T/Ts, never had any problems. In my experience, bias adjustment (anti-skate) is usually around 0.3-0.5g less than the optimal VTF.
For example, the DL-103 I used to record the Sinatra CDR I sent you, was set at 2.6g VTF, and bias at 2.3.
Marco.
The gauge may have said 2.3 but may not be accurate. And spring bias will not be constant across the record surface. That's why thread and weight, however fiddly is the better mechanism. So if you got the antiskate just perfect, and have hearing sensitive enough to detect that, you won't be enjoying the other tracks on the record quite as much. Mercifully my Lugholes are not that sensitive and I can live with lower precision, since one of funks comprises on fxr is spring bias. ;)
Yup, I agree that thread and weight is the best type of bias adjustment. However, we simply use what’s available on our tonearm of choice. An arm with a thread and weight system may have significant deficiencies in other areas that outweigh its efficacy, in terms of accurate bias adjustment. Tonearm design, as with anything else in audio, is a balance of compromises.
Regardless, though, of what it says on the anti-skate dial that I use (it could say 7.5, if such a figure existed, it wouldn’t matter) - I just adjust it until things sound best to my ears, and leave it at that. The numerical reference, therefore, simply serves as a guide :)
As has been said, the important thing in all of this is to acknowledge that the measurement apparatus available to us only serves the purpose of getting things ‘in the right zone’. In that respect, they act simply as a guide. Fine-tuning afterwards should always be carried out by ear, which in turn should act as the final arbiter.
That principle applies as much to turntable set-up, as it does to system building and audio design in general.
Marco.
On a few occasions after balancing out the arm I've forgotten to set anti-skate back from zero and I've never heard it make a blind bit of a difference. That's on several different TTs.
walpurgis
30-11-2014, 10:27
On a few occasions after balancing out the arm I've forgotten to set anti-skate back from zero and I've never heard it make a blind bit of a difference. That's on several different TTs.
Try using a Decca without setting the bias exactly right!
Decca? Right, hang on while I go and rob a bank...
On a few occasions after balancing out the arm I've forgotten to set anti-skate back from zero and I've never heard it make a blind bit of a difference. That's on several different TTs.
i must admit im struggling to hear a difference between say a bias setting of 1.5 to 2,5 on my dial which brings us around to why i bought the test record.
On a few occasions after balancing out the arm I've forgotten to set anti-skate back from zero and I've never heard it make a blind bit of a difference. That's on several different TTs.
That will depend on the recordings you play. Some may sound fine, which is why you won’t have noticed any difference, but you could very easily hit upon another that will show up incorrect bias adjustment, and thus produce audible distortion on playback.
That is why during the ‘fine-tuning by ear’ process, many different recordings should be used, in order to accurately set VTF, VTA, azimuth and bias, particularly ‘difficult’ material that pushes the cartridge to its limit :)
Highly modulated, close-miked female vocals, orchestral crescendos and high-tempo, densely recorded rock music, are ideal for that purpose.
Marco.
Ammonite Audio
30-11-2014, 11:34
Once you've experienced accelerated wear on one side of a stylus, the need for correct setting of bias becomes much clearer. It's not just a question of sound, it's just as much about preventing unnecessary expenditure on new styli, re-tips etc.
Sure, Hugo, but in 30 years of using a turntable, without setting it up with the use of a test record, I’ve never experienced any accelerated wear on one side of a stylus, so I must be doing something right! ;)
Furthermore, the cantilevers on all the cartridges I’ve used in that time have always remained 100% straight, as when otherwise (after being ‘pulled' in one direction or the other, and as a result becoming bent), is a sure sign of the use of incorrect bias.
I’m simply being honest here. I’m not making this up :)
Marco.
The Barbarian
30-11-2014, 11:43
Same here. Hi-Fi forums make me laugh they really do..
awkwardbydesign
30-11-2014, 12:06
Try using a Decca without setting the bias exactly right!
I also have the Decca International arm with magnetic bias. If you are brave the bias can be adjusted as the record is playing. Very, very brave!
Ammonite Audio
30-11-2014, 12:22
I'd refer you to Expert Stylus Company for their guidance on this, but I wonder if it's worth the effort. Suffice to say that it costs nothing to set things up properly, and thereby avoid premature tip wear.
Highly modulated, close-miked female vocals, orchestral crescendos and high-tempo, densely recorded rock music, are ideal for that purpose.
Marco.
i think im doing something right then,i set mine up using kate bushes,"the kick inside" album.
I'd refer you to Expert Stylus Company for their guidance on this, but I wonder if it's worth the effort. Suffice to say that it costs nothing to set things up properly, and thereby avoid premature tip wear.
We’re in agreement, Hugo. However, for some of us, ‘set things up properly’ doesn’t necessitate the use of a test record :)
Marco.
i think im doing something right then,i set mine up using kate bushes,"the kick inside" album.
Excellent choice! :thumbsup:
However, you should try some other stuff, too. Do you listen to classical music?
Most of that is excellent for setting up a cartridge. Also heavy rock music - basically anything that’s a bit demanding. Avoid anything ‘safe’ and pristinely produced, as that will almost always sound good, regardless of whether your T/T set-up has been optimised.
Marco.
phew great,bear with me guys as im only a few months into this set up lark,i also use the eagles hotel california as a guide too,marco perhaps you could list a few classical albums i could try as a test please?
I always use 'Acres Wild' from Jethro Tull's Heavy Horses LP. If anything's not right with the TT set-up that track always shows it up. Not sure why.
Oldpinkman
30-11-2014, 15:09
i think im doing something right then,i set mine up using kate bushes,"the kick inside" album.
Why not just look at how near or far you are with a blank record. Get a rubbish 12" laser disc off ebay (I have "bringing up baby" - cost me £2). Lower the stylus onto roughly the middle (half way between edge and label, not the bloody spindle :doh:) whilst it spinning. If the bias is right, it will stay in the same place. Too much it will move to the edge, too little it will move to the label.
Now, arguably it will be underset, so you might like to tend towards having it move to the edge slightly. The argument is that the modulated groove produces a bigger pull than a bare surface. There have been a couple of papers, I can't find just now, arguing the toss about this. However - this begs some questions if you believe it is a big enough factor to bother about
If your bias is correctly set for the loud highly modulated stuff, is it excessive for quieter passages?
(Nobody bring up the subject of 45rpm).
For £2 - it would be interesting to see how your ear set it. You won't break anything :)
If your bias is correctly set for the loud highly modulated stuff, is it excessive for quieter passages?
(Nobody bring up the subject of 45rpm).
Not in my experience. If the cartridge can cope, musically, ‘when the going gets tough’, as it were, then it’ll sail through ‘simple material’.
I’ve never found anything lacking in the replay of 45rpm records, when the bias has been set using 33rpm ones, or vice versa, for that matter, if that was the point you were making...
For £2 - it would be interesting to see how your ear set it. You won't break anything
Good recommendation. You can also do the same thing with the ‘blank side’ of double albums on LP, when often only three sides have been pressed. That happens quite frequently these days (I’ve got quite a few), so if you have one of those, it’s free - no need to buy anything!
Marco.
The Barbarian
30-11-2014, 16:02
Why not just look at how near or far you are with a blank record. Get a rubbish 12" laser disc off ebay (I have "bringing up baby" - cost me £2). Lower the stylus onto roughly the middle (half way between edge and label, not the bloody spindle :doh:) whilst it spinning. If the bias is right, it will stay in the same place. Too much it will move to the edge, too little it will move to the label.
Now, arguably it will be underset, so you might like to tend towards having it move to the edge slightly. The argument is that the modulated groove produces a bigger pull than a bare surface. There have been a couple of papers, I can't find just now, arguing the toss about this. However - this begs some questions if you believe it is a big enough factor to bother about
If your bias is correctly set for the loud highly modulated stuff, is it excessive for quieter passages?
(Nobody bring up the subject of 45rpm).
For £2 - it would be interesting to see how your ear set it. You won't break anything :)
That's all i do to get a rough idea a one sided 12'' single
Once you've experienced accelerated wear on one side of a stylus, the need for correct setting of bias becomes much clearer. It's not just a question of sound, it's just as much about preventing unnecessary expenditure on new styli, re-tips etc.
Spot on. Also, poor set up (not just bias) as well as prematurely wearing a stylus will can cause damage to LPs too. I really can't understand the prevalent attitude "about right's good enough" when getting set up as spot on as possible is really what we should aim for. A little patience and the right tools are all that's needed. After all it's a once in a blue moon requirement, so spending a good 15 minutes on set up isn't a lot in the scheme of things.
As for the HFN test LP over-setting, I think it's more common (from experience with speaking to people) that most people don't actually use the bias setting tracks correctly or at least don't really understand how to use them correctly. A common mis-conception is that you shouldn't hear any distortion but this is not true. The idea is that once past track 2 of the bias tracks, the lift in output will cause almost all arm/carts to produce some audible distortion, the correct set up is to set bias so that this distortion (heard as a high pitch buzz) is EQUAL on both sides. Using a blank disc wont achieve correct set up, as it doesn't account for the centrifugal force generated by the pull of the grooves towards the centre. The correct set up applies just enough force to counter this. That's exactly what the HFN test tracks are designed for.
Set up correctly, this set up should also sound the best. It does every time I've set a cart up for people and for my own decks. Trust your ears if you have no other choice, it's your stylus and LP collection, and these tools are there to help make things more precise and easier, and also to protect your valuable LP collection and stylus life.
Hi Paul,
Spot on. Also, poor set up (not just bias) as well as prematurely wearing a stylus will can cause damage to LPs too. I really can't understand the prevalent attitude "about right's good enough" when getting set up as spot on as possible is really what we should aim for. A little patience and the right tools are all that's needed. After all it's a once in a blue moon requirement, so spending a good 15 minutes on set up isn't a lot in the scheme of things.
I couldn’t agree more, and not enough folk do that, so quite simply they’re not hearing their T/T at its best. However, my point is that the above doesn’t automatically necessitate the use of a test LP, as I’ve found for myself.
I think you make a good point about understanding how to use test LPs correctly, and that will definitely have a bearing on matters. However, the bottom line is achieving whatever sounds best to your ears, which if different to what the test disc says is ‘correct’, doesn’t matter. What matters is that the sound achieved *is* fundamentally correct for YOU ;)
Like I said before, measurements in audio are only ever a guideline, not a set of commandments.
Marco.
Oldpinkman
30-11-2014, 16:29
Spot on. Also, poor set up (not just bias) as well as prematurely wearing a stylus will can cause damage to LPs too. I really can't understand the prevalent attitude "about right's good enough" when getting set up as spot on as possible is really what we should aim for. A little patience and the right tools are all that's needed. After all it's a once in a blue moon requirement, so spending a good 15 minutes on set up isn't a lot in the scheme of things.
As for the HFN test LP over-setting, I think it's more common (from experience with speaking to people) that most people don't actually use the bias setting tracks correctly or at least don't really understand how to use them correctly. A common mis-conception is that you shouldn't hear any distortion but this is not true. The idea is that once past track 2 of the bias tracks, the lift in output will cause almost all arm/carts to produce some audible distortion, the correct set up is to set bias so that this distortion (heard as a high pitch buzz) is EQUAL on both sides. Using a blank disc wont achieve correct set up, as it doesn't account for the centrifugal force generated by the pull of the grooves towards the centre. The correct set up applies just enough force to counter this. That's exactly what the HFN test tracks are designed for.
Set up correctly, this set up should also sound the best. It does every time I've set a cart up for people and for my own decks. Trust your ears if you have no other choice, it's your stylus and LP collection, and these tools are there to help make things more precise and easier, and also to protect your valuable LP collection and stylus life.
Maybe. But you need a silly scope to do it right. Hard to be sure you hear equal.
Did you mean centrifugal force? That would throw the arm out not pull it in. Many people confuse the forces involved - there are different forces acting on the inner and outer groove wall but, broadly these balance to a net skating force - not dissimilar to the blank disc. But I don't believe centrifugal force gets much of a mention. And if there was a special force "towards the centre", the tracks on my HFS record are in the wrong place to measure it.
Like I said, there was some reseach on this, and there is a paper by James Kogan which is a reference. He measured to an accuracy of 0.007gm using a null balance meter, and found variations due to vinyl material, groove velocity, position on record, rotational speed, stylus profile, uncle tom cobbly and all. However, his conclusion was
"These tests indicate that a gross compensation of skating force can be achieved by using a constant bias force applied horizontally. The residual unbalanced forces which result from changes in modulation velocity, groove radius and groove velocity, will contribute second order effects which should not have a major influence on factors such as trackability and tip wear. The compensation must be made for a particular tip at a given tracking force..."
I know a fairly famous turntable manufacturer, something of an industry icon, who accordingly uses the blank record as good enough ;)
Maybe. But you need a silly scope to do it right. Hard to be sure you hear equal.
Did you mean centrifugal force? That would throw the arm out not pull it in. Many people confuse the forces involved - there are different forces acting on the inner and outer groove wall but, broadly these balance to a net skating force - not dissimilar to the blank disc. But I don't believe centrifugal force gets much of a mention. And if there was a special force "towards the centre", the tracks on my HFS record are in the wrong place to measure it.
Like I said, there was some reseach on this, and there is a paper by James Kogan which is a reference. He measured to an accuracy of 0.007gm using a null balance meter, and found variations due to vinyl material, groove velocity, position on record, rotational speed, stylus profile, uncle tom cobbly and all. However, his conclusion was
"These tests indicate that a gross compensation of skating force can be achieved by using a constant bias force applied horizontally. The residual unbalanced forces which result from changes in modulation velocity, groove radius and groove velocity, will contribute second order effects which should not have a major influence on factors such as trackability and tip wear. The compensation must be made for a particular tip at a given tracking force..."
I know a fairly famous turntable manufacturer, something of an industry icon, who accordingly uses the blank record as good enough ;)
Sorry....yes, I didn't mean centrifugal, but the inertial force acting inwards (which strictly speaking isn't centripetal force either but a result of centripetal force acting on the LP). Whatever the ins and outs, the test LP is actually a pretty good measure of where to set bias. The test tracks are misunderstood and its clear from some responses that folk haven' grasped what they're all about. They are deliberately engineered for distortion and at quite a high level. Get that right (ie equal) and its plain to see (and hear) that the stylus is being acted upon with equal force (vertical amplitude of the grooves) in both channels. That means that the stylus is moving as centrally between the grooves as possible so that in principle is the correct place for the stylus to be hence the tracking force. The science involved is pretty straight forwards really and has been understood for decades. The one thing that is true is that the required force varies depending on the inward speed of the stylus tracing the arc towards the spindle (overhang) point from the tonearm pivot point. If this speed is constant, then the tracking force by definition must be constant. If this inwards speed varies, then the bias force needed can only ever be an approximation giving rise to slight differences between inside and outside LP groove areas.
Each to their own, but I don't consider a blank groove the correct way and will continue to use the test tracks. Setting the tracking force towards the heavier end of the recommended settings I also find to be beneficial as with large distortion amplitudes, setting a light tracking force will often result in more stylus and LP wear plus greater risk of mis tracking. Edit: I'll substitute "correct" way with my personal "considered way". The differences, it is agreed, dont result in a large differences in tracking. In fact, mis-alignment of the cartridge is probably more liable to throw out trackability and increase stylus wear so it's a pre-requisite that very accurate alignment is needed before we worry overly about bias...that or use a 12 inch tonearm where bias force isn't as necessary ;-)
ok so now my head really hurts!! lol here's a quick question for you all,ive noticed that the left speaker is less dynamic or quieter than the right speaker,when listening to cd's they are equal,what does that suggest?
ok so now my head really hurts!! lol here's a quick question for you all,ive noticed that the left speaker is less dynamic or quieter than the right speaker,when listening to cd's they are equal,what does that suggest?
Obvious answer: Channel imbalance
Cause(s): could be one of a number of things including cart generator is outputting more on one channel, phono stage channel imbalance (out of tolerance component?) or a wiring issue, but unlikely to be due to bias if the sound is clean and without mistracking (distortion) on difficult passages.
Yup, that would also be my assessment.
However, I would add that if you can hear one channel is less dynamic than the other when listening in stereo then the actual fault will be quite profound and should be addressed.
Oldpinkman
01-12-2014, 07:57
Broad agreement again. A lot depends on "less dynamic" - a subjective assessment, and "less loud" a (relatively) objective one.
Assuming we are talking less loud, then the main set-up factor which might affect it (as opposed to a faulty device which needs mending) is azimuth. This is unlikely because most arms don't feature an azimuth adjustment. It means that the cartridge is not at 90 degrees to the record. From the front, drawing a line up through the stylus, that line should be at 90 degrees to the record surface. If it is sloping off to one side, one channel will be louder than the other.
Can you test your cartridge in another system? and / or fit another cartridge in yours?
Do you have another phono stage / preamp you can use?
Try to isolate which component is causing the fault
Lol - bottom line is that, despite what the test record said, you’ve gone with what sounded right to YOU, which is precisely the right thing to do! :)
For me, test records and any other T/T measurement/set-up apparatus, is only good for getting you in the right ‘ballpark’, as it were - after that, it’s lughole time.
Marco.
I keep my electronic tracking weight gizmo handy and use it fairly regularly, as on the second arm of my deck I fairly regularly change from mm stereo to mono. There is only 0.5g difference between the two headshells. The obvious thing to do would be to add 0.5g of blue tak to the lighter one, but that would be too sensible.
legb4rsk
19-12-2014, 14:51
Would not various profile shapes require differing settings due to the contact area? Also a theoretical perfect stylus will track all tests equally well but in the real world if you adjust to get good results in one area could this not be detrimental to other areas?
So adjusting the bias 'out of spec' may be a better compromise when it comes to real world listening.
Confucius say 'Equipment that measure very well not always sound very well'.
Hasn't this always been the case?
...that or use a 12 inch tonearm where bias force isn't as necessary
I am a recent first-time user of a 12 inch arm, and this rather interests me. What are people's experiences of using low compliance cartridges, such as SPUs, on 12 inch (J-shaped, such as SME 3012) arms, in relation to bias?
Would not various profile shapes require differing settings due to the contact area? Also a theoretical perfect stylus will track all tests equally well but in the real world if you adjust to get good results in one area could this not be detrimental to other areas?
So adjusting the bias 'out of spec' may be a better compromise when it comes to real world listening.
That’s a very good and valid point :)
For me, unless you’re a manufacturer, the trick is not to get too anal about the use of test equipment, as it can lead to neurosis.
Once you’ve set-up things so far using objective methods, and achieved a reasonable level of accuracy, you should then have the self-confidence to trust your ears sufficiently for the remaining fine-tuning necessary, in order for the ‘sweet spot’ to be reached, i.e. where the sound just ‘clicks into place’.
Confucius say 'Equipment that measure very well not always sound very well'.
I’d say that all equipment that sounds ‘very well’ should also measure very well, *but* measuring very well is not the be all and end all. There is rather more to optimising the sound of a turntable (or hi-fi system) than the readout on some test apparatus!
Marco.
montesquieu
20-12-2014, 18:40
Hmm measurement .... I went through a period of not bothering about measurements. I think the idea that measurements don't matter is born out of ignorance - not all measurements matter all the time. But in general, something that measures better generally is better, unless for the purpose for which it's being used, the poor measurement isn't important.
Single ended amps are a case in point. These nearly all have a piss poor damping factor. Some speakers (few in number, but they exist) will be ok with this, but in the vast majority this will result in a lack of control (distortion and in particular, sloppy bass).
Those sold on the idea of single ended may jump through lots of mental hoops, from fingers in ears right up to full on delusion, to ignore this fact - in fact I wish I had a fiver for every time I've read a on a forum that such and such a low powered single ended amp sounded good with Tannoys, which according to the laws of physics is plain impossible.
montesquieu
20-12-2014, 18:54
I am a recent first-time user of a 12 inch arm, and this rather interests me. What are people's experiences of using low compliance cartridges, such as SPUs, on 12 inch (J-shaped, such as SME 3012) arms, in relation to bias?
I have found that higher end SPUs can be finicky about bias even on a 12in arms, and have still needed bias adjustment (I got rid of my Thomas Schick arm for that reason ). They do benefit from the extra mass though. Strangely the basic ones have been less bother.
I've owned quite a few 12in arms - Schick, Audio Origami PU7 12in, Jelco 750 12in, Alfred Gerd Ortofon, a couple of DIY ones included. I'm no longer convinced that they are the answer - I feel 9-10in arms are more lively and responsive ... Properly setup tracking distortion can be minimised.
I'm currently running a 9in main arm and 10in second arm. It's taken a lot of trial and error to arrive at this though and I wouldn't be surprised to find others had reached a different conclusion.
Hmm measurement .... I went through a period of not bothering about measurements. I think the idea that measurements don't matter is born out of ignorance - not all measurements matter all the time. But in general, something that measures better generally is better, unless for the purpose for which it's being used, the poor measurement isn't important.
Single ended amps are a case in point. These nearly all have a piss poor damping factor. Some speakers (few in number, but they exist) will be ok with this, but in the vast majority this will result in a lack of control (distortion and in particular, sloppy bass).
Those sold on the idea of single ended may jump through lots of mental hoops, from fingers in ears right up to full on delusion, to ignore this fact - in fact I wish I had a fiver for every time I've read a on a forum that such and such a low powered single ended amp sounded good with Tannoys, which according to the laws of physics is plain impossible.
I agree pretty much with all that, Tom, particularly your comment about Tannoys. Undoubtedly you can get excellent results with SE amps, in certain applications, but I find them too restrictive for my needs, much preferring a bit of power on tap! :)
Marco.
I have found that higher end SPUs can be finicky about bias even on a 12in arms, and have still needed bias adjustment (I got rid of my Thomas Schick arm for that reason ). They do benefit from the extra mass though. Strangely the basic ones have been less bother.
I've owned quite a few 12in arms - Schick, Audio Origami PU7 12in, Jelco 750 12in, Alfred Gerd Ortofon, a couple of DIY ones included. I'm no longer convinced that they are the answer - I feel 9-10in arms are more lively and responsive ... Properly setup tracking distortion can be minimised.
I'm currently running a 9in main arm and 10in second arm. It's taken a lot of trial and error to arrive at this though and I wouldn't be surprised to find others had reached a different conclusion.
My goodness, we are in complete agreement on that, too! More on that later, as I’m busy doing something at the moment :)
Marco.
Thanks for your thoughts, Tom ... as always, informative and based on real experiences :clap:
Both my SPUs have an eliptical stylus, and I haven't really spent much time trying to optimise them TBH, currently using minimum bias setting ... but will give it a go over Xmas to see if further improvements are possible.
I agree about 9 inch arms, or to be more precise, about the AN arm we both use, which manages the trick of delivering real dynamics whilst maintaining musical flow, unlike others I have owned. I still believe the current Arm 1 is one of the great bargains out there.
Hmmm, I do like the look and 'feel' of the SPU on an SME 12 inch, though ... especially the solidity when queuing. Sounds OK too!
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