New Subwoofer - Best Upgrade To My System

[Ninanina]

I've recently purchased a sub to 'help' the Klipsch Heresy's

I've read lots about subwoofers and it would seem that a lot of people hate them.. and I have to agree I always thought they were not a good idea in a decent hifi setup..

However I have been totally converted since trying one in my system

The Heresy's roll off at about 63Hz and it has never bothered me as I have lovely neighbours and I don't want to upset them, as I believe bass carries through the walls some..

But tuning the sub to 'not offend' has been simple, so I have great bass but just not too much of it to annoy

I think it's been the best money I have ever spent on an 'upgrade' to my system and would highly recommend one ;)

[walpurgis]

I've tried three subwoofers. You can tune them into the system so that their output is subtle, but I've not yet found one yet that quite seems to fit in without eventually becoming noticeable or 'not quite right'.

[Ninanina]

I've tried three subwoofers. You can tune them into the system so that their output is subtle, but I've not yet found one yet that quite seems to fit in without eventually becoming noticeable or 'not quite right'.

Maybe i've just got mine 'tuned' in just right but I am mightily impressed :)

The strange thing is that the bass seems to be coming from the Heresy's, which is quite spooky !!:eek:

[Firebottle]

The strange thing is that the bass seems to be coming from the Heresy's, which is quite spooky !!:eek:

Yes it's weird that effect, I get it as well. What sub have you bought Bev?

:cool: Alan

[Oldpinkman]

Yup. As noted on my bigger bottom thread, I now have a good subwoofer working well with the esl63s. Both of us last night commented how the bass seemed to be coming from the main speakers, and not the corner where the sub was. Whilst the idea of a sub was anathema to my upbringing, and a very questionable benefit with a cheap and cheerful one, I have a feeling this one is staying in. Just very odd letting James have the hot seat, and listening off axis, where the bass was boomy and overblown. A function of the very directional treble on the dipoles.
It will be interesting to hear how Alexm gets on.

And of course, the home cinema benefits too. Win win :cool:

[Sovereign]

Yes the bass was certainly not coming From where the sub was sited. Very interesting effect.
I listened to my open baffles late last night. Although I love what they do , I missed the huge central image, I've never heard speakers that sound so speakerless.

[Oldpinkman]

Yes the bass was certainly not coming From where the sub was sited. Very interesting effect.
I listened to my open baffles late last night. Although I love what they do , I missed the huge central image, I've never heard speakers that sound so speakerless.

Great description "speakerless". Without wishing to be too much of an ivor about the importance of the source, a lot of that effect was down to a wobbly old bouncer of a belt drive and ancillaries ;)

[Ninanina]

Yes it's weird that effect, I get it as well. What sub have you bought Bev?

:cool: Alan
Yes spooky indeed.. :stalks:

I've got a MJ Acoustics Pro 50, purchased off AoS

[Jazid]

:)
I've tried three subwoofers. You can tune them into the system so that their output is subtle, but I've not yet found one yet that quite seems to fit in without eventually becoming noticeable or 'not quite right'.

Coming to this thread rather late as an inveterate tweaker. I have been trying to integrate a sub with modest success (bk xxls400). I guess one has to accept that is there is no perfect integration of any drive units - there is always going to be diffraction and phase summing and cancellation effects, frequency dependent level issues and all sorts as well. Mine is dialed in at 67 Hz crossover with 36 dB/octave slopes so operates effectively only under 100Hz, and I have the liberty to adjust timing and shaping the frequency response in the digi domain which helps a bit as it doesn't seem to affect the tone of the instruments as much at those frequencies (apologies to any bassists and bass viol players, please don't stick my head up on a pole).

So how does it sound? Weeell, for rock and bass rich jazz music overall definitely better. AN-Es are not the last word in bass articulation so letting them get on with what they so well seems to work. For chamber ensemble the same, except I find the rasp of bows is different and that a little drive added to the music by these instruments disappears, or maybe it is that there is only one sub at the moment? I'll have to wait for better times to add another one so I'll have to live with that conundrum! There is a slight loss of richness of cello/double bass tone but that could be the flatter response, or just the loss of a tubby colouration that monkey coffins and valves add, at the same time the mid-bass tone is 'drier' if that makes any sense, overall the jury's out. A slight worse is large scale orchestral, I guess maybe because of the spread of information in the lower frequency spectrum across the soundstage which is mostly lost with one sub but, who knows, maybe something else.

One thing that is odd is that in the past I have found randomly added subs have added airiness in the midrange, no idea why, and at the moment that is not the case, also soundstage and imaging are pretty much the same, probably the crossover slopes are pretty severe?

Would I remove it? I do find myself switching it out which I can do from listening position from time to time, but overall I suspect it will stay. It is noticeable but that is why we add them after all! Not quite right? A different kind of not quite right but a damn fine one :D

[Reffc]

Alternately, use full range speakers and have all the benefits of subs without any of their drawbacks. Not easy when room is limited though. Still, I've managed to squeeze a measured 27Hz from 30 litre cabs recently, so even those wont be needing any subs :)

[Andrei]

One thing that is odd is that in the past I have found randomly added subs have added airiness in the midrange, no idea why,

I have a hypothesis about this: If the midrange driver has too much work to do in terms of going from the crossover at the tweeter down to the bass; then adding a sub will take away some of its workload and thereby improve its midrange. I have no references to quote about this - just an idea of mine.

[Jazid]

hi Andrei,
I thought the same, but in this case the sub is working with the mid/bass unit attenuated below 67Hz thus should be producing this airiness, whereas in the past I have used the sub as a reinforcement for the mid/bass drivers so the airiness came without any change to their behaviour. So it must be something else in this case. Maybe a shallower crossover slope? Who knows!

Hi Paul, long time no talk :)
Using full range drivers with digi frequency shaping and a SET is a recipe for disaster IMHO. The main achilles heel of SETs being output trafo saturation at low frequencies the last thing I'd need to do is shove more energy down there. Also I'm still not convinced of the benefits of driving a small driver very hard vs. a large driver more gently or at least in its 'comfort zone' which is what I am doing with the sub. I hear you re. simplicity and integration, just thinking I prefer a big unit to shift the air around and the resources kept for the lmid-bass and upwards.
So saying I have got the sub flat to mid 20s, and a cabinet based roll off below. There is still plenty of output at 16 Hz however which is where the patio windows start shaking and I am petrified that a small scratch might spread and crack one pane so I am not going any lower with the signal genny!

[Reffc]

hi Andrei,
I thought the same, but in this case the sub is working with the mid/bass unit attenuated below 67Hz thus should be producing this airiness, whereas in the past I have used the sub as a reinforcement for the mid/bass drivers so the airiness came without any change to their behaviour. So it must be something else in this case. Maybe a shallower crossover slope? Who knows!

Hi Paul, long time no talk :)
Using full range drivers with digi frequency shaping and a SET is a recipe for disaster IMHO. The main achilles heel of SETs being output trafo saturation at low frequencies the last thing I'd need to do is shove more energy down there. Also I'm still not convinced of the benefits of driving a small driver very hard vs. a large driver more gently or at least in its 'comfort zone' which is what I am doing with the sub. I hear you re. simplicity and integration, just thinking I prefer a big unit to shift the air around and the resources kept for the lmid-bass and upwards.
So saying I have got the sub flat to mid 20s, and a cabinet based roll off below. There is still plenty of output at 16 Hz however which is where the patio windows start shaking and I am petrified that a small scratch might spread and crack one pane so I am not going any lower with the signal genny!

Good posting James, and spot on.

As to the question of small V's large drivers, the issue is less with absolute sizing and more to do with distortion V' frequency & SPL. Smaller drivers by definition need greater excursion for similar SPL levels to smaller drivers. They're not working any harder per se to generate the low frequencies as that is a function of their resonant frequency limits (easier to achieve lower Fs). You can have say a 7 inch unit with an Fs of 27 Hz or a 12 inch unit with an Fs of the same...in either case they both may generate a similar low frequency response. However, limiting excursion is usually a good thing as it is harder to control a driver moving 10mm than one moving 4mm and depending on motor design and cone material, distortion is usually higher for higher SPls for smaller units moving with greater excursion. This is not always the case, as a large driver is harder to engineer with sufficient stiffness yet retain a low mass, so there can be greater cone distortion with the larger drivers, hence driving them loud with low bass can also generate significant levels of distortion. As a general rule, if using small drivers for bass, they need to be of very high quality and specifically engineered for this application. There are very good examples of some superb bass drivers out there which are only 7 or 8 inches in diameter, ditto for drive units twice that size.

There is some truth also in one driver doing everything (ie full range units) perhaps not sounding as coherent as purpose designed drivers handling separate bands. It largely depends on bass group delay/control and resonance point at the lower end (without overhang into midrange) and prevention of beaming at higher bands which is simply a function of driver diameter. Eg, an 8 inch drive unit starts to beam on axis roughly from 1.7KHz; a 5 inch unit starts beaming from 2.7kHz so its not hard to see why full range units are a compromise really unless listening on axis and accepting bass limitations.