Bigger bottom wanted - subwoofer thoughts?

[Oldpinkman]

My recent trip to Sovereigns lair, apart from being a most enjoyable chance to listen to music and some different gear, left me wondering yet again whether I could tinker with my set up just a tad and remedy its most obvious defect without losing its most alluring qualities.

In simple terms - More bass - no loss of midrange "ethereal" and detail.

The obvious option - a subwoofer. I have a cheap and cheerful Cambridge audio active bought for use with the home cinema. As I have often done before, I had a go at blending it in with the HiFi. This must have been the first time with the Quads, because it was a good bit more successful than before.

It didn't damage the midrange - the main qualities - anywhere near as badly as experiments with the ventricals and Lowthers had. But it stood out like a sore thumb that the bass - whilst nice to have there - was nothing to write home about. Sufficiently interesting to want to try a better sub-woofer

Obvious candidates are REL T5 or T9. My living room is small (about 15m2). T5 is the more affordable! Any thoughts / direct experience of the 2 of them?

Any chance of a loaner from someone near Maidstone would of course be even better, but pretty unlikely. Sovereign and I are a lonely colony it seems :(

:cool:

[Ali Tait]

There was a decent sub for sale on here, would be worth trying I think.

[Marco]

Have you thought about a graphic equaliser?
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:eyebrows: ;)

Marco.

P.S That’s the problem with Quads, me old son; all their talents are ‘put into the one basket’. Deep bass, she no do.

[jandl100]

Stacked Quads ... they can do bass :thumbsup:

http://www.soundfountain.com/amb/ribquad.jpghttp://www.onethingaudio.webspace.virginmedia.com/FOR/QUA/57/Images/STA/9041CMQUA-IMG-HQD-IA.jpg

As for pairing a normal subwoofer with a single pair, I doubt you'll have much luck, tbh.

Might be worth trying with a decent sub bought used (so you can sell it on again when it doesn't pan out well) - e.g. BK 200.

Famed stat maker Martin Logan do a sub -- mayhap they get it right?

http://www.martinlogan.com/images/descent-i-rear.jpg

[Marco]

Yup, stacked Quads are a different ball game altogether, and yes I’ve heard them. However, not everyone has the space to house such beasts. Moreover, it’s a rather drastic (and expensive) course of action in order to get your existing speakers to more accurately reproduce low frequencies! ;)

In all seriousness, I think a (good sub), subtly adjusted to unobtrusively ‘fill in’ the missing lower octaves, in effect so that the sub is simply ’seen and not heard’, as it were, is the best solution for Richard.

Marco.

[walpurgis]

There was a decent sub for sale on here, would be worth trying I think.

Were you referring to this Ali?

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?35234-MJ-ACOUSTICS-PRO-50-active-subwoofer

[jandl100]

Yup, stacked Quads are a different ball game altogether, and yes I’ve heard them. However, not everyone has the space to house such beasts. Moreover, it’s a rather drastic (and expensive) course of action in order to get your existing speakers to more accurately reproduce low frequencies! ;)


Werll, they don't really take up any more floor space than single Quads - they do look kind of imposing, though. :eek:

As for the cost, going lower usually costs a bundle - larger cabinet with extra and expensive bracing (if it's done properly), usually more drivers and a more complex x-over.

[Marco]

“Imposing” is precisely where I was coming from, especially if you live in a modern house with lowish ceilings! ;)

Adding another pair of top-notch (fully serviced) 57s into the equation ain’t exactly ‘pocket money’ either.

Marco.

[AlexM]

How about one of these?

http://www.rythmikaudio.com/products1.html

both the 12" and 15 (F12 and F15) sealed box models have quite usable output down to <20Hz, low distortion and have very flexible controls to allow smooth integration. Price is favourable compared to the RELs too, assuming shipping costs are manageable. The bass is Hi-Fi quality bass, not car audio-type noise too.

I'm very tempted by these myself.

[Ali Tait]

It's 63's Richard has though?

[Ali Tait]

Were you referring to this Ali?

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?35234-MJ-ACOUSTICS-PRO-50-active-subwoofer

Aye that's the kiddie. Well worth a punt at that price methinks.

[walpurgis]

This guy seems to have his sub-woofer issues sorted:

http://i58.tinypic.com/2jg8eih.jpg

[Ali Tait]

:lol:

[jandl100]

It's 63's Richard has though?

:doh: you're right.

then move up to the later Quad models - 2912 etc - they do proper bass. Not cheap, though.

[AlexM]

You don't need to quite go to those extremes to get 1Hz bass - see details of the eminent technology Thigpen rotary subwoofer at http://www.rotarywoofer.com/.

>115Db acoustic output between 1 and 20Hz! You had better check out exclusions in your building insurance. There is a youtube video demo of a door moving back and forth at 5hz. That is a bigger bottom end in anyone's book :)

Specifications

Specifications: Amplifier Requirement: 150 watts @ 8 ohms Impedance: 8 ohms 0Hz - 40Hz
Frequency Response: 1Hz – 30Hz +/- 4dB Suggested Crossover: 20Hz @ 18dB/octave
Sensitivity 94dB 1 watt 1 meter @10Hz
Maximum Acoustic Output: >115dB (!!!) between 1 and 20Hz.
Distortion: Typically 3% or less between 1 and 20Hz @90dB

[walpurgis]

Yeah. That's been around a few years now. Not sure it's entirely necessary. :)

The "want to hear what 5 Hz sounds like" is daft. You may feel 5Hz physically, but your ears won't hear it as such.

[Oldpinkman]

I know Jerry

We had stacked 57's at the Sidcup factory. I have a 15m2 room. I fancied getting in there to listen to them. Maybe, if I get a suitable room when we move to France, then I will play with a set of stacked 57's

In the meantime, its a sub-woofer, and I may bring the Ventricals back in if the sub is good enough to mix with them. The room is too small really for a dipole to work properly :(

[Firebottle]

I use a REL Stadium with the 57s and it works exceedingly well.

:cool: Alan

[Gordon Steadman]

My REL Quake is for sale!! Mind you, you didn't like the effect in my room with the 57s but then it was balanced for my ears and they are far from effective these days. Hate to think what the carriage would be but one of the regular carriers might do it reasonably.

Not expensive. I have it up for sale at €150 but we could no doubt do a deal.

[Oldpinkman]

Interesting thoughts. Sue has just reported the school have a spare - been in a cupboard for years, no idea what, but she'll bring it home to try.

Clearly tastes differ in these things Marco. A lot depends on whether you are listening to Iron Maiden who create a lot of heavy bass live which my system can't replicate, or an Orchestra - such as we heard for Puccini at the Royal Albert Hall, where I would say my system almost exactly replicates it. It's surprising how much "HiFi" bass is missing from a live classical concert! And how quiet classical concerts are compared with many folks listening levels. I believe Peter Walker once observed the same. Not just out of consideration to the neighbours, I listen a bit quieter than most I suspect.

Indeed - after a long sabbatical away from all this nonsense, my recent experiences in the last year or so have reminded me how "Hifi" a lot of the systems HiFi people listen to are. All but one of the systems I have listened to recently had a bass that I felt was at least somewhat excessive and spoilt the mid-range

So I'd like a bit more bass - but only if I can do it without spoiling the rest. I listen to very little Iron Maiden - much more acoustic, classical and Jazz. I prefer my compromises tilted in that direction. And so does Sue - which is nice, cos we naturally like the same things and don't have to have a "his" and "hers" system

So bigger bottom - but without getting a saggy mid-riff. ;)

I'll see what this thing Sue has found is first, but I'm not holding my breath... :cool:

[Sovereign]

Thanks for the compliment Richard, didn't know you were after by big bottom, you didn't seem like that sort of guy .
Paul Coupe, RFC, advised of using two subs for best results. But I know nothing more than that really.

[peter haynes]

Hi Richard
I have a big bottom but unfortunately my system doesn't and is also lacking in that department. Thanks to kind generosity of a member of the forum, I will shortly be listening to an alternative amp loaned to me - this will help me make a judgement as to whether the amp or speakers need to be replaced.
I personally dont want to go down subwoofer route
Hope you get it resolved
Peter

[Macca]

The times I have heard ESLs of the various types I thought they reproduced low frequencies reasonably well but lacked 'slam' for want of a better word. Bass isn't just reproducing the low notes audibly, there is more to it than that. You may not miss that 'slam' with a classical recording but you do with rock music like Iron Maiden. Some may say it is just the speaker cabinet/cone driver adding colouration, I'm not so sure.

[Marco]

Clearly tastes differ in these things Marco. A lot depends on whether you are listening to Iron Maiden who create a lot of heavy bass live which my system can't replicate, or an Orchestra - such as we heard for Puccini at the Royal Albert Hall, where I would say my system almost exactly replicates it. It's surprising how much "HiFi" bass is missing from a live classical concert! And how quiet classical concerts are compared with many folks listening levels. I believe Peter Walker once observed the same. Not just out of consideration to the neighbours, I listen a bit quieter than most I suspect.


Some good points there, Richard, many of which I agree with.

However, in terms of sonic goals for my system, as I listen to such a wide variety of different types of music (from Nielsen to Nurse with Wound), I demand that it plays all of it with aplomb - and most of it, superbly. Therefore, whether I’m listening to Iron Maiden, 'giving it some', or the gut-churning swell of an orchestra in full flow, reproducing crescendos during pulsating performances from Shostakovich, my system (and speakers) excelling at reproducing deep bass is a prerequisite, as I like to ‘feel’ the music, as well as hear it.

I guess it depends on where you like to sit when attending a classical concert. Me? I’m up close, right in amongst it, so when the orchestra gets going I can feel the visceral impact and the ‘wall of sound’, created by the mass of different instruments being played when crescendos are reached, and experience the raw, often piercing, impact of the sound of violins forming part of the string section - *that* is what gives me goosebumps! Therefore, I ‘voice’ my system to replicate that effect as closely as possible.

In that respect, apart from some light classical or choral musical concerts I’ve attended, I’ve not noticed the quietness you refer to, other than during the usual passages in between pieces of music. The classical concerts I attend (performed by the BBC National Orchestra of Wales) are usually rather visceral sounding affairs (and not in any way ‘gentle’), so I guess in that respect much depends on the size of the orchestra, the instruments used, the skills of the conductor, the style of music played (as dictated by the composer), along with the size and acoustics of the venue.

“Hi-fi”, for me in that respect, is simply recreating as closely as possible the sound of real instruments and voices, and that not only requires a system to excel at midrange and high frequencies, but at lower frequencies too, if the end result, musically, is to approach something considered as lifelike sounding, rather than a rather diluted and inferior representation of such.

Marco.

[DSJR]

I recently read an interview with the late great Peter Walker, who said his speakers were crap, just better than everyone elses :lol:

I believe TWO subs are the best way to go, one for each channel. With digital sources especially, a good orchestral recording will have two independent channels down to sub-sonics (vinyl won't sadly as it would be difficult if not impossible to track) and blending them into mono at very low frequencies will mess things up to some extent (I have the evidence from a recording engineer to back me up). The Gradient subs Quad marketed for a while were excellent with 63's, as they were lifted well off the floor as well, letting the splendid mid and treble through better - in my opinion :)

[Andrei]

At what point are your squeakers rolling off? If it fairly high then you can get fab results from a sub. In fact depending how the crossover is done, and what kind of speakers you have, you may even improve the sound of the speakers themselves by taking over some of their workload in an area (the base) where they are not so strong. If all you want is to hear some lower notes then a sub is likely the only way yo do it. I say 'likely' as it is possible to have speakers that can go low but the amp is not controlling them. My experience with subs is that you have to get a good quality one. I have had cheap subs and they sound ... cheap. I came to the conclusion that it is better not to have one at all.
I have not heard 2 subs in a room but it makes perfect sense to me - in fact I have read of having four! If all the planets align then the visceral aspect of bass - that shove in the chest - is great. One final thing though; you will be lucky if your sub sounds good at first hit - be prepared to do a lot of adjusting of position. So go on, annoy your wife, infuriate your neighbours, damage your hearing - get a sub.

[jaym481]

How about one of these?

http://www.rythmikaudio.com/products1.html

both the 12" and 15 (F12 and F15) sealed box models have quite usable output down to <20Hz, low distortion and have very flexible controls to allow smooth integration. Price is favourable compared to the RELs too, assuming shipping costs are manageable. The bass is Hi-Fi quality bass, not car audio-type noise too.

I'm very tempted by these myself.

This is near what my own aspirations are for the '63s. I find the bass of my Quads adequate for the listening levels I have, though I'd like to apply a bit more, I live in a block of flats, and would rather my neighbours stay, if not friendly, at least away.

What I've been considering as an alternative to uncommon Gradients are these: http://gr-research.com/sw-12-16fr.aspx which when paired with the Rythmic amps should actually provide better results than the Gradients. Like Gradients they are two OB subs per baffle, and the baffles can be built as stands for the '63s. The combination of servo control and OB makes them much easier to match to electrostats, and relieving the Quads from the effort of bass below 100Hz improved their own mid- and upper-range performance by all accounts.

Unfortunately the drivers and amps need to be sourced from the USA, as I don't think there's a Uk distributor yet. Import and shipping costs would make it pricey.

On that note, I also agree that at least two subs are needed. integrating a single sub is an exercise in frustration unless you resort to digital room correction. Even then it can be problematic. One solution I'm keen to try when we finally move to the place that'll support it is distributed bass. For me this would be the GR Research/Rythmik subs under the Quads, plus two more small subs elsewhere in the room. Such a configuration essentially eliminates nodes due to cancellation.

[Oldpinkman]

Oh its so hard to know without listening.

I think a single better sub is what's on the menu right now. Arthur has a pair of the Gradients rotting in a shed I might pick up and have a borrow of. But the ESL-63's may not last long term. I am holding on to them in case there is a room in the new house which is suitable. I haven't dared so much as wire up the Ventricals since getting the 63's , but won't die of shock if I prefer them, in this system, in this room. As it is I have to tuck the 63's back close to the wall for TV duty and pull them out when listening to 2 channel. I know my limits.

Part of my trouble is that the minute I want to tinker, I want to build the factory system. But that is not relevant to my current situation, where I want a decent sound in my real house real living room. At Foots Cray we built the room to allow us to build an optimised audio show case. I don't have a hanger that big at home. And I don't have a 7 foot rat snake loose either. Things are not the same :(

Frankly - the systems primary use, at least in the short term while teenagers continue to lurk, is for home cinema -and regardless of whether it proves a good 2 channel solution, a better sub will improve the home cinema setup. I think "now" also limits my natural tendency to get the very biggest and best I can. Its a very small room. And chances are the room in the next house won't be that much bigger. If it is - I'll sell the small sub and buy a bigger if appropriate.

I found these yesterday http://www.bkelec.com/HiFi/sub_woofers.htm. I quite fancy giving them a go. Of course, being direct sale there are no retail outlets to try them at (and you can't really buy 4 models and send 3 back, so distance selling rules are of limited benefit as an alternative), but the price is accordingly lower. They seem to get good reviews, and on forums and blogs. There are some adverse comments about customer service (long delivery times, phone calls not returned) but no suggestion that anybody is rude, aggressive, or paranoid, and nothing I have read that suggests anything other than they know what they are talking about and make good kit. In principle I like the idea of buying a product from a British designer and manufacturer.

Anybody have any experience? The P12 300 SB looks interesting, although as a new model, will it suffer worse for poor service and long lead times? :scratch:

[jandl100]

BK 200 :thumbsup: - it's what I recommended a few posts back (post #4).

Same size but better than the REL Quake and cheaper - imo you don't need a bigger sub than that.

[Oldpinkman]

At what point are your squeakers rolling off? If it fairly high then you can get fab results from a sub.

They both (63's and Ventricals) roll-off at about 60Hz. Of course, as I commented elsewhere about cats purring, "roll-off" is not the same as "make no output". If I pick up a 50Hz hum problem, I hear that load and clear, however much it may be 9db down. :(

Yeah - I think a proper sub is worth a punt. I can almost get something worthwile out of my cheap and cheerful, and a new sub will benefit the home cinema if nothing else :cool:

[Oldpinkman]

BK 200 :thumbsup: - it's what I recommended a few posts back.

:o

[Oldpinkman]

BK 200 :thumbsup: - it's what I recommended a few posts back.

Better than the REL Quake and cheaper - imo you don't need a bigger sub than that.

Fair play. my Mrs wondered how much more satisfying 12" would be than 10" but I suspect you are right. Thanks for the pointer :)

[jandl100]

She should be grateful for a 10". ;)

[jandl100]

I bought a XLS200 direct from BK and found them very easy and helpful to deal with by phone.

[Sovereign]

Hi Richard.

If you liked what you heard in the Sovereign Bunker, would it not make sense to buy the speakers you heard, or do they look too much like kitchen worktops for you:)
They can be made to look a lot nicer than the job I did
http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm8.staticflickr.com% 2F7159%2F6587784513_ca2dedbf88_z.jpg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hifiwigwam.com%2Fshowth read.php%3F65513-Lampizator-P17-Endorphine-open-baffle-speaker-review&h=416&w=640&tbnid=FdCHKp5qxdvISM%3A&zoom=1&docid=hV5T8xJnhDpB8M&ei=pApvVICpBIL0auqMgcgC&tbm=isch&client=safari&ved=0CCEQMygAMAA&iact=rc&uact=3&dur=1303&page=1&start=0&ndsp=28
http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm8.staticflickr.com% 2F7175%2F6587783759_98c1de3747_z.jpg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hifiwigwam.com%2Fshowth read.php%3F65513-Lampizator-P17-Endorphine-open-baffle-speaker-review&h=640&w=480&tbnid=Dh8RuSlXk3KkgM%3A&zoom=1&docid=hV5T8xJnhDpB8M&ei=pApvVICpBIL0auqMgcgC&tbm=isch&client=safari&ved=0CCMQMygCMAI&iact=rc&uact=3&dur=568&page=1&start=0&ndsp=28

[Oldpinkman]

Hi Richard.

If you liked what you heard in the Sovereign Bunker, would it not make sense to buy the speakers you heard, or do they look too much like kitchen worktops for you:)
They can be made to look a lot nicer than the job I did
http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm8.staticflickr.com% 2F7159%2F6587784513_ca2dedbf88_z.jpg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hifiwigwam.com%2Fshowth read.php%3F65513-Lampizator-P17-Endorphine-open-baffle-speaker-review&h=416&w=640&tbnid=FdCHKp5qxdvISM%3A&zoom=1&docid=hV5T8xJnhDpB8M&ei=pApvVICpBIL0auqMgcgC&tbm=isch&client=safari&ved=0CCEQMygAMAA&iact=rc&uact=3&dur=1303&page=1&start=0&ndsp=28
http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm8.staticflickr.com% 2F7175%2F6587783759_98c1de3747_z.jpg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hifiwigwam.com%2Fshowth read.php%3F65513-Lampizator-P17-Endorphine-open-baffle-speaker-review&h=640&w=480&tbnid=Dh8RuSlXk3KkgM%3A&zoom=1&docid=hV5T8xJnhDpB8M&ei=pApvVICpBIL0auqMgcgC&tbm=isch&client=safari&ved=0CCMQMygCMAI&iact=rc&uact=3&dur=568&page=1&start=0&ndsp=28

Thanks James. I liked some of what I heard - but not enough to throw the baby out with the bathwater. There are things about the Quads I like plenty and want to keep.

So just a bigger bottom for now;)

(Incidentally that is the wrong way to approach the subject of a need for a new sub-woofer with your wife, as I discovered) :doh:

[jandl100]

So just a bigger bottom for now ;) .... (Incidentally that is the wrong way to approach the subject of a need for a new sub-woofer with your wife, as I discovered) :doh:

:)

[Lee1976]

I while ago I ran mj pro 50 with some living voice auditorium. It added more weight but I then added a second and wow I had some killer bass. Defo go for two smaller ones in a small room.

[AlexM]

I've now ordered a BK XXLS400 to see how that works with my Avalons. I'll let you know how I get on. It is a very capable bit of kit, but my main concern is room placement.

[Oldpinkman]

I've now ordered a BK XXLS400 to see how that works with my Avalons. I'll let you know how I get on. It is a very capable bit of kit, but my main concern is room placement.

I'm that close to pressing the button on a FF XLS200. With a view to maybe adding a 2nd if I decide a stereo pair would be better. As a silly aside - how do you connect up the high level if you have banana plugs as I do? Easy if you have speaker binding posts - but what's the banana solution? :scratch:

[Firebottle]

You can get stacking 4mm plugs Richard, the second plug either fits into the 'socket' on the top, or sideways through the whole in the barrel.

Damn useful they are too for testing an experimentation.

:cool: Alan

[Gordon Steadman]

I'm that close to pressing the button on a FF XLS200. With a view to maybe adding a 2nd if I decide a stereo pair would be better. As a silly aside - how do you connect up the high level if you have banana plugs as I do? Easy if you have speaker binding posts - but what's the banana solution? :scratch:


Bung both leads in the plug. If they don't fit...yer leads are too thick:eyebrows:

[Marco]

She should be grateful for a 10”...

Well, your missus will probably never know what that extra 6” feels like!! :lol:

;)

Marco.

P.S Mind you, the postman was throwing some menacing looks in her direction, last time I was down... :eyebrows:

[User211]

The times I have heard ESLs of the various types I thought they reproduced low frequencies reasonably well but lacked 'slam' for want of a better word. Bass isn't just reproducing the low notes audibly, there is more to it than that. You may not miss that 'slam' with a classical recording but you do with rock music like Iron Maiden. Some may say it is just the speaker cabinet/cone driver adding colouration, I'm not so sure.

Great post. I agree. 2905s do really have a good go at it compared to 63s, but you don't buy Quads for bass/dynamics.

I reckon ESLs just can't provide enough force for huge dynamics/great LF performance. That simple.

The next problem is integrating ESLs with dynamic bass drivers. They are quite different beasts in terms of how they work/move air. Best done with a microphone and some s/w assuming you can control the x-over point i.e. the sub has decent controls.

[AlexM]

The next problem is integrating ESLs with dynamic bass drivers. They are quite different beasts in terms of how they work/move air. Best done with a microphone and some s/w assuming you can control the x-over point i.e. the sub has decent controls.

.. and possibly an Antimode dual core DSP?. I imagine that the radiation patterns of dipoles and box loudspeakers make this doubly difficult. I wonder what the crossover frequency would need to be with an ESL? My speakers are -6Db at 37Hz, so crossover at about 40Hz seems right as a starting point.

Pinky will need to experiment to see if room modes are a problem - other options are two (or more!) subs and/or some DSP. I'm planning on trying mine in a corner position as a start - hoping that it wont boom massively. BK said that the XXLS400 ought to work well in a room of my dimensions with the XXLS400 and the room gain should give <20Hz response. We shall see, but I'm looking forward to trying it out.

Alex

[Spectral Morn]

Surely these are what is required but the question is are these still available new ?

http://www.regonaudio.com/Gradient%20SW-63%20Subwoofer.html

It would look like the answer is yes, so Gradient sw63 is the answer http://www.gradient.fi/Gradient/SW-D.html

[jandl100]

Surely these are what is required but the question is are these still available new ?

http://www.regonaudio.com/Gradient%20SW-63%20Subwoofer.html

It would look like the answer is yes, so Gradient sw63 is the answer http://www.gradient.fi/Gradient/SW-D.html

That's makes a nearly 6 foot high speaker! .. and broad with it.
I bet they aren't cheap, either.

So maybe not The Answer for everyone. ;)

[jandl100]

Well, your missus will probably never know what that extra 6” feels like!! :lol:

;)

Marco.



4 inches? -- pshh - she'll be lucky! :lol:

[TheMooN]

.

[Oldpinkman]

Surely these are what is required but the question is are these still available new ?

http://www.regonaudio.com/Gradient%20SW-63%20Subwoofer.html

It would look like the answer is yes, so Gradient sw63 is the answer http://www.gradient.fi/Gradient/SW-D.html

Thanks Neil. Arthur has a pair I might borrow - really just to see if they might be of interest if I end up with a suitable room when we move to France (further setback on Friday - council announcing they will be at least 5 weeks late processing planning applications)

Right now they fail the "domestic acceptance" test, as in truth do the ESL63's themselves. I suspect they will be in storage in the stables by Christmas, with the dear old Ventricals back in action. But I will be interested to see what I can do with getting a BK sub to work. I've ordered an xls200 now

If its even half decent - I might get another to have a go at what a stereo pair do. And if its not, well - at least it will be an upgrade for the home cinema :)

btw the "where to buy" link doesn't work - and I see One Thing no longer stock them - so maybe they are not available new.

[Oldpinkman]

Well, your missus will probably never know what that extra 6” feels like!! :lol:

;)

Marco.

P.S Mind you, the postman was throwing some menacing looks in her direction, last time I was down... :eyebrows:

It's an old line of my Dad's, but

I'm not cutting anything off mine, no matter who its for ;)

[Spectral Morn]

Thanks Neil. Arthur has a pair I might borrow - really just to see if they might be of interest if I end up with a suitable room when we move to France (further setback on Friday - council announcing they will be at least 5 weeks late processing planning applications)

Right now they fail the "domestic acceptance" test, as in truth do the ESL63's themselves. I suspect they will be in storage in the stables by Christmas, with the dear old Ventricals back in action. But I will be interested to see what I can do with getting a BK sub to work. I've ordered an xls200 now

If its even half decent - I might get another to have a go at what a stereo pair do. And if its not, well - at least it will be an upgrade for the home cinema :)

btw the "where to buy" link doesn't work - and I see One Thing no longer stock them - so maybe they are not available new.

So I see, if they have gone its pretty recent as there is a news item regarding a show in October. Sadly lots of companies have half working websites, not updated etc so they might still be trading and maybe selling direct.


Regards Neil

[Spectral Morn]

Mystery solved old website here is the current one http://www.gradient.fi/Gradient/Contact.html

[AlexM]

Hi,

As I mentioned earlier, I was inspired by this thread to stop dithering over my potential options and go with the BK XXLS400 12" sub.

It may interest you to know that the standard filter configuration is variable 24Db/octave low pass between 40-120Hz combined with fixed LP filter of 12Db/octave at 120Hz. As a special order, BK can make both filters variable (rather both are connected to the variable frequency control), which means that you get a 24Db/Octave low pass filter with a minimum frequency of aound 25Hz as opposed to 40Hz. What is even better is that this is a no-cost option. There is still enough adjustment range to integrate with most speakers - upper roll-off appears to start around 110hz at highest frequency,

This is potentially the way to go if you are planning to use a BK sub with full range speakers, although I'm not sure if the '63s count as full range :D). I suggest you speak to Tom at BK if you want this option in your subs.

Excellent flexibility and service from BK, I must say. I guess that is the benefit of dealing with a company who designs and builds all of it's own stuff, and is small enough to cater for individual requirements.

Regards,
Alex

[Macca]

A sub should really go below 30Hz or it is more of a 'bass reinforcement speaker' than a sub.

[Oldpinkman]

A sub should really go below 30Hz or it is more of a 'bass reinforcement speaker' than a sub.

TBH I think "bass reinforcement" is probably appropriate, and in reality what I was looking for. Even so, the XLS200 is only 6db down at 17Hz. I doubt I hear 17Hz. Speakers are typically +-3db in range, and a fair few don't get close to that in a room. +-3db is a 6db span at the extremes.

I think this will be sufficient to get a feel for a better quality of sub than my present one. It should do adequate duty for the home cinema if its a complete bust in the 2 channel. It's going to have to do its stuff near a wall. And if it works, I might try adding a 2nd for a stereo pair. (Although I may well go back to the Ventricals as previously stated, which don't roll-off as abruptly and are harder to "blend")

As I noted before, if I have to "trade off" and compromise, I am happy to let bass go. Very, very rarely do I hear "full range" (deep bass) systems that are remotely satisfying in the key vocals / guitar / orchestral strings range that primarily engages me listening to music. All too frequently bass itself is reggae balanced, and the resulting muddy flat mid-range lacks detail and realism. A preference for "that mid band" is something AK and I share, and reflects in the "slant" or "house flavour" of Pink Triangle and Funk products - although the boy himself is looking to get the best of both worlds with some of his more recent design ideas.

But, in my experience, mostly, if your system can do justice to hatchback boot reggae, it probably suffers elsewhere. :cool:

[loo]

A preference for "that mid band" is something AK and I share, and reflects in the "slant" or "house flavour" of Pink Triangle and Funk products - although the boy himself is looking to get the best of both worlds with some of his more recent design ideas

Hmmm, is that assessment straight from the Horse's Mouth or the donkey's Arse:doh:

Paul

[Macca]

TBH I think "bass reinforcement" is probably appropriate, and in reality what I was looking for. Even so, the XLS200 is only 6db down at 17Hz. I doubt I hear 17Hz. Speakers are typically +-3db in range, and a fair few don't get close to that in a room. +-3db is a 6db span at the extremes.

:

That's pretty good. Will be interested to see how you get on as I quite fancy trying one of these myself.

[Oldpinkman]

IT'S HERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D

Very impressed with BK. Fine response to my enquiries, I bought it from their ebay shop since they had in stock the model I wanted. Shipped within 48 hours. Very well made - very good package. Truly excellent little company it seems.

3 times the weight of the one it replaces, only minor issue was with the high level cable,whose wires are too thin to squidge in the stackable banana plugs I bought, so, as a temporary "get me going" I soldered a bit of speaker cable to the ends of them.

I MUST get on with some work, but had a quick listen to the Dave Migden toon I played at Sovereigns, and my current reference track "Nobody knows you when you are down and out" Katie Melua (lots of deep bass, fine all the other bits - imaging, acoustic instruments, the lot).

First impressions are very favourable. It's night and day better than the Cambridge. It does seem to add a bit of "slam" because it is tight and fast. Probably got it a bit too fat at the moment - will play later, but already starting to think of a 2nd one. Will maybe play with the low level and home cinema this evening.

Thanks for the pointer Jerry.

Early days, but much promise. :cool:

[CageyH]

:worthless:

:ner:

[AlexM]

So where have you put it? Have you experimented with placement much?.

I'm looking forward to getting mine in a few days..

[Marco]

Very, very rarely do I hear "full range" (deep bass) systems that are remotely satisfying in the key vocals / guitar / orchestral strings range that primarily engages me listening to music. All too frequently bass itself is reggae balanced, and the resulting muddy flat mid-range lacks detail and realism.

if you ever find yourself near me, give us a shout, and I’ll gladly provide you with a new experience in that area... ;)

Genuine offer, btw.

Marco.

[Sovereign]

Great, looking forward to hearing your system.
(Note to self.........must stay away from wrexham :stalks:)

[Marco]

Lol - you’d be very welcome anytime, James :)

Marco.

[Oldpinkman]

:worthless:

:ner:

It looks just like the really excellent product photos on BK's website. Do you really want me to take pictures of it? :doh:

[Oldpinkman]

So where have you put it? Have you experimented with placement much?.

I'm looking forward to getting mine in a few days..

For now its plonked to the left of the left speaker, a bit further away from the wall and angled slightly in . There is limited scope to do anything else and stay married. I could experiment temporarily with bringing it into the room centre stage. Will do a bit more playing at the weekend. Will just try a rough and ready AV setup for a run through of Harry Potter tonight (Sue has a stinking cold, and needs a bit of comfort food, booze, cuddles, and easy watching).

I don't think you'll be disappointed Alex. :)

[Gordon Steadman]

If someone wants to make a proper sub woofer.....

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Used-18-Speaker-/161464917857?pt=UK_AudioVideoElectronics_HomeAudio HiFi_HiFiSpeakers&hash=item25980f1f61

[Oldpinkman]

if you ever find yourself near me, give us a shout, and I’ll gladly provide you with a new experience in that area... ;)

Genuine offer, btw.

Marco.


Thank you for the offer. With Harry my stepson at Uni in Gloucester, that might lure us West. I did say "very rarely". That's not "never". I know "he who knows all, and is never wrong" believes I only added up the books before Pink Triangle went bust, but in fact I was Managing Director whilst Neil Jackson was undergoing thyroid cancer treatment, and a long term groupie / friend of Arthurs and Neils before that. So ran a few show stands, including the Heathrow Penta for PT, and visited more than a few dealers, and in the process heard a fair range of esoterica. But never let the truth get in the way of a good story is clearly the motto of the day.

My friends from the business include Andrew Jones of TAD (who is a speaker junkie) as well as his twin brother, and Andrew Watson of Kef - who is launching an LS35a bass unit. So, in my day, I've heard a few different speakers and set ups. The stacked Quads at the factory were still my favourites. But among a few nuggets, I've heard some real shockers, and an awful lot which were not my cup of tea.

Incidentally, Sovereign and I live 5 minutes from Kefs old works at Tovil (and 5 minutes from Chord's factory in the old mill at East Farleigh).

Still - it's always interesting to hear something new. What I really want to try are the Kef Blades, but they are beyond my pocket money :(

[Oldpinkman]

Great, looking forward to hearing your system.
(Note to self.........must stay away from wrexham :stalks:)

Although I am planning to try to catch up some work, and if its dry I need to clear up some leaves, if you are around this weekend, or even Friday afternoon, and fancy a brief return match, let me know. :cool:

[CageyH]

It looks just like the really excellent product photos on BK's website. Do you really want me to take pictures of it? :doh:

I was more interested in how you have integrated it in a WAF manner, as I know what reaction I would get if another little box appeared. :steam:

[Oldpinkman]

I was more interested in how you have integrated it in a WAF manner, as I know what reaction I would get if another little box appeared. :steam:

OK. I'll have a go. Means I'll have to tidy up. It's hardly bigger than its predecessor, and I made a point of taking Sue to see an REL T9 first to soften her up...;)

[CageyH]

It's not urgent.
I just wanted to show Mrs H what Mrs Pinkie lets you get away with! :lol:

[Oldpinkman]

Just for Cagey (it was a very good barbecue)

Sorry they are not great - its not easy with poor light

http://i1315.photobucket.com/albums/t582/oldpinkman/DSC_2698_zpsb33cce45.jpg (http://s1315.photobucket.com/user/oldpinkman/media/DSC_2698_zpsb33cce45.jpg.html)

http://i1315.photobucket.com/albums/t582/oldpinkman/DSC_2700_zpsac02f81c.jpg (http://s1315.photobucket.com/user/oldpinkman/media/DSC_2700_zpsac02f81c.jpg.html)

http://i1315.photobucket.com/albums/t582/oldpinkman/DSC_2704_zps48260d0a.jpg (http://s1315.photobucket.com/user/oldpinkman/media/DSC_2704_zps48260d0a.jpg.html)

:cool:

[AlexM]

I have very limited options for placement, so my new sub will be going into a corner. A large, overstuffed sofa will be doubling up as a bass trap, with tuning limited to orientating the speaker into or away from the sofa or into the corner or away from it.

Richard, I see that your sub is about two feet from the side wall, and about a foot away from the rear - would that be right?

[Oldpinkman]

I have very limited options for placement, so my new sub will be going into a corner. A large, overstuffed sofa will be doubling up as a bass trap, with tuning limited to orientating the speaker into or away from the sofa or into the corner or away from it.

Richard, I see that your sub is about two feet from the side wall, and about a foot away from the rear - would that be right?

Spot on. And works a treat. Passed the harry Potter test with flying colours and had sue asking, unprompted, whether I could use 2 of them. Result! :D

[Sovereign]

Although I am planning to try to catch up some work, and if its dry I need to clear up some leaves, if you are around this weekend, or even Friday afternoon, and fancy a brief return match, let me know. :cool:

Done, I have to pick up a check from a client by the prison at 3:30 so could be with you for 4:15 text me your address, again.

[Marco]

Richard, you should put these in the Gallery section, as I’ve never seen pics of your system before. Nice gaff… Like the wood burner, exposed brickwork and candle sconces - just the kind of look we’ve got going on in our lounge, although we have an open fire. Nice one! :)





http://i1315.photobucket.com/albums/t582/oldpinkman/DSC_2698_zpsb33cce45.jpg (http://s1315.photobucket.com/user/oldpinkman/media/DSC_2698_zpsb33cce45.jpg.html)

http://i1315.photobucket.com/albums/t582/oldpinkman/DSC_2700_zpsac02f81c.jpg (http://s1315.photobucket.com/user/oldpinkman/media/DSC_2700_zpsac02f81c.jpg.html)

http://i1315.photobucket.com/albums/t582/oldpinkman/DSC_2704_zps48260d0a.jpg (http://s1315.photobucket.com/user/oldpinkman/media/DSC_2704_zps48260d0a.jpg.html)

:cool:

Marco.

[Sovereign]

Incidentally, Sovereign and I live 5 minutes from Kefs old works at Tovil (and 5 minutes from Chord's factory in the old mill at East Farleigh).

Still - it's always interesting to hear something new. What I really want to try are the Kef Blades, but they are beyond my pocket money :(

That's interesting, I had no idea Chord were local.
As a company we priced up to change all the doors in the Keff factory to fire doors after Keff had a visit from the Fire Officer, I think it was 80 doors in all, we didn't get the work in the end as Keff are a bit tight fisted. It did however give me the opportunity to perv my way around their factory and museum.

[Oldpinkman]

That's interesting, I had no idea Chord were local.
As a company we priced up to change all the doors in the Keff factory to fire doors after Keff had a visit from the Fire Officer, I think it was 80 doors in all, we didn't get the work in the end as Keff are a bit tight fisted. It did however give me the opportunity to perv my way around their factory and museum.

Kef are not the local manufacturer they were since the merger. Thanks for dropping in today. I take it you approved of the sub. I think the BK 200 is a great product and great value, and very much not British Rip-off HiFi. And I'll let you know in which lifetime you can borrow the ESL63's for a few months...:stalks: It'll be on a collect basis from Carcassonne mate :D

[Sovereign]

Yes it was good to meet again. It was a really interesting time. I had planed to bring my DAC, and amp and even tease you with my mother trucker balanced power supply, but I came straight from a restaurant and I didn't have time to swing by my place on the way.
It was interesting as I hadn't ever heard electrostatic speakers. We turned the BK sub off so I could appreciate what the electrostatics do on their own. Initially I thought the sound was good but nothing special, it took me about ten minutes for me to really appreciate what they do, and when I did I really liked what they do. I don't know why but I expected them to sound edgy and harsh, but the sound was very real and life like without a harsh edge in sight, yet still retaining great detail.
I thought the BK sub was a cracker of a product, Richard has it tucked away in a corner yet the bass was totally three dimensional and realistic. It would be interesting to hear the difference if the sub was placed in between the speakers.
An enjoyable afternoon in all, heard some great music, some old and some new. I even tried to appreciate some classical, but didn't quite get there, I'm sure I will find some one day that I like.
Next time I'll have to bring some gear over, mainly my amp.

[Floyddroid]

One of the larger BK's wouldn't go a miss.
I have very limited options for placement, so my new sub will be going into a corner. A large, overstuffed sofa will be doubling up as a bass trap, with tuning limited to orientating the speaker into or away from the sofa or into the corner or away from it.

Richard, I see that your sub is about two feet from the side wall, and about a foot away from the rear - would that be right?

[Oldpinkman]

Richard, you should put these in the Gallery section, as I’ve never seen pics of your system before. Nice gaff… Like the wood burner, exposed brickwork and candle sconces - just the kind of look we’ve got going on in our lounge, although we have an open fire. Nice one! :)




Marco.

Thanks. I'll have a go at some better pictures in a calmer moment. Not easy in such a small room, but I can do better than that.

[Oldpinkman]

One of the larger BK's wouldn't go a miss.

Alex has already ordered a BK XLS400 I believe. Has it arrived yet Alex - be interested to hear your thoughts when it does.

I can't believe how good the 200 is, and how well its possible to integrate it into the Quads. :)

[AlexM]

I'd probably add another XXLS400 12" in preference to a single, bigger sub. The XXLS400 is quite a bit larger than the '200, and will go below 20hz at reasonably high levels. I should be getting mine next week, so we'll see...

[AlexM]

I'd probably add another XXLS400 12" in preference to a single, bigger sub. The XXLS400 is quite a bit larger than the '200, and will go below 20hz at reasonably high levels. I should be getting mine next week, so we'll see...

It's here..

Gosh, a 16" cube looks quite large ;)


I've only had a quick play - cross-over set to 50Hz, high-level input gain set to abourt 1/3, and off we go...

First impressions are that extension is definately significantly better.. acoustic bass sounds clean and appropriately 'woody'. Deep synth bass is really extended, although there is some doubling as I haven't sorted out the cross over frequency and correct gain. I haven't shifted the sub to where it will live in a corner yet, so final set up will need to wait until I have.

So far, so good... I think I'm going to like this quite a bit :)

Some pictures:


Cripes - it's bigger than I was expecting

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7511/15743746718_fd43f33683_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/pZdPoW)BK Electronics XXLS400 Sub (https://flic.kr/p/pZdPoW) by alexmastersuk (https://www.flickr.com/people/14548229@N07/), on Flickr

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7503/15931178215_ec314cd20d_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/qgMsft)BK Electronics XXLS400 Sub (https://flic.kr/p/qgMsft) by alexmastersuk (https://www.flickr.com/people/14548229@N07/), on Flickr

Plate amp - can accomodate both high and low level connections simultaneously with independent levels and cross-over frequencies

https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8573/15743916000_b4a58a6ec6_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/pZeFHA)BK Electronics XXLS 400 Subwoofer (https://flic.kr/p/pZeFHA) by alexmastersuk (https://www.flickr.com/people/14548229@N07/), on Flickr

[eisenach]

How are you getting on with this?

Partly going on what I've read on here, I bought a downward firing 400 on ebay to try with my ESL63s.
It's just arrived, but without the black feet fitted, and no bolts to fix them. BK say they've probably been pulled inside the cabinet by the speaker's magnetic field, so to get at them, I've got to take the amp pack out.

I'll need the correct tool to take out the bolts, I've no time this week-end because of family illness, and BK says taking the amp pack out isn't always straightforward because of the sticky gasket. Warm it with a heat gun !

Tell me it's all going to be worth it !

[Oldpinkman]

I think you'll be pleased with the subwoofer with the ESL 63's when its working - but whether its worth having to repair a brand new item?? Surely BK will replace or repair themselves under warranty.

Good luck anyway :)

[eisenach]

I think you'll be pleased with the subwoofer with the ESL 63's when its working - but whether its worth having to repair a brand new item?? Surely BK will replace or repair themselves under warranty.
Good luck anyway :)

No, it was a used ebay buy, not direct from BK. The risks you take ! ;)

[AlexM]

I'd be inclined to take it up with the seller. Are the feet on the downward firing xxls400 not designed to fit into a threaded collet on the bottom of the sub, like a spiked foot? It does seem very odd that there would be a non captive bolt arrangement to secure the foot using a bolt from the inside, unless the feet were never designed to be removed.

It will be worth getting it sorted out. - I love my sub and am getting it properly dialed in now. It isn't there unless there is real LF content in the signal. - well recorded thunder claps sound amazingly real now, and bass peddles or synth bass lines have real power for the first time.

Regards,
Alex

Regards,
Alex

[Macca]

How cool is the white one?

http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac233/Macca_photos_2009/XXLS400-DF_White_Front.png (http://s903.photobucket.com/user/Macca_photos_2009/media/XXLS400-DF_White_Front.png.html)

Something like this is on my Xmas list. Not sure if I want a downward firing job though.

[eisenach]

It does seem very odd that there would be a non captive bolt arrangement to secure the foot using a bolt from the inside, unless the feet were never designed to be removed.


I think that's the case. So far, the seller has been very reasonable, so we'll see how it goes. Annoying, though, especially with every thing else that's going on!

[Elephantears]

I have a BK XLS200 and I did use it with the ESL 63s for a short time. I thought it was ok at first but ultimately it lagged behind, seeming too muddy in comparison to the panels. 63s are a little bloomy around 60Hz anyway, so integration is always going to be a bit messy with that kind of sub. I really think you need an active crossover to get good results. I say that after using the Gradient SW63, which are in a different league to BK subs when used with 63s. The active crossover ensures there is no blurring of bass duties between the panels and the subs, and relieves the panels of having to bother about anything below 110Hz.

I also tried the Gradients with small speakers such as the Harbeth P3ESR and KEF LS50 as an experiment. It works really well, and it makes me wish that this kind of solution was commercially available. Monitors plus active subs is such a common Pro set up but not easy to implement in a domestic system, particularly when you need an analogue input for vinyl.

[kininigin]

I also tried the Gradients with small speakers such as the Harbeth P3ESR and KEF LS50 as an experiment. It works really well, and it makes me wish that this kind of solution was commercially available. Monitors plus active subs is such a common Pro set up but not easy to implement in a domestic system, particularly when you need an analogue input for vinyl.

This is exactly the route i have gone down,small active speakers,with a matching active 15" sub! Works extremely well for me.I have the sub set to take over at about 35Hz.I was inspired from the pro market and spent a few years tracking down the Paradigms i own for a more domestically aimed solution!

[Elephantears]

This is exactly the route i have gone down,small active speakers,with a matching active 15" sub! Works extremely well for me.I have the sub set to take over at about 35Hz.I was inspired from the pro market and spent a few years tracking down the Paradigms i own for a more domestically aimed solution!

Darren I'm interested that you've managed to do this with a Croft pre-amp, which I'd not normally associate with active speakers. That sounds like a nice combination.

I wasn't being quite clear about what I meant in mimicking the Quads/Gradients combo - I should have said a passive sub with small monitors, then the use of an active crossover. So you then use two power amps, one for the subs and one for the monitors. I can see why this would not be commercially viable for speaker developers but I think it could be ideal for small to medium sized rooms.

[Bluedroog]

I'm currently using a Croft 25 in to some KRK Rokit 10-3 actives, they really are opposit ends of the spectrum, you've got the Croft hand made valve pre in to cheap and cheerful actives which really are more aimed at bedroom producers / DJs / kids but it is actually a very successful marriage and really one I want to explore further with some better actives.

I have also tried adding my BK XXLS400 via the tape out of the pre ( I don't this is an ideal way of doing it as I have to have the gain so low in the sub). Being three way actives with 10" woofers they kick out some bass as it is so currently not really bothering with the sub but will explore going back to 2.1 again down the line with some proper eq for set up, set up poorly I think a sub really distracts the overall sound but will try either an antimode or minidsp. If that is successful I may well try adding a second sub.

[kininigin]

Darren I'm interested that you've managed to do this with a Croft pre-amp, which I'd not normally associate with active speakers. That sounds like a nice combination.

I wasn't being quite clear about what I meant in mimicking the Quads/Gradients combo - I should have said a passive sub with small monitors, then the use of an active crossover. So you then use two power amps, one for the subs and one for the monitors. I can see why this would not be commercially viable for speaker developers but I think it could be ideal for small to medium sized rooms.

It was a bit of an experiment on my part,using a valve pre with active speakers! I had previously not used either before but it worked really well and have stuck with it.The combination still amazes me now!!

Ahh i see what you mean.Yes not quite commercially viable but i think there are a few people on here that have gone down that sort of route! I don't have the time or money to do that,hence the actives.Which have 4 perfectly matched power amps for each driver! They are 4 very good quality amps though and as far as i'm concerned,i would have to spend far more than what i paid for them to get anything better.Adding the sub took them up a notch and really opened and filled them out,if you know what i mean!


I'm currently using a Croft 25 in to some KRK Rokit 10-3 actives, they really are opposit ends of the spectrum, you've got the Croft hand made valve pre in to cheap and cheerful actives which really are more aimed at bedroom producers / DJs / kids but it is actually a very successful marriage and really one I want to explore further with some better actives.

I have also tried adding my BK XXLS400 via the tape out of the pre ( I don't this is an ideal way of doing it as I have to have the gain so low in the sub). Being three way actives with 10" woofers they kick out some bass as it is so currently not really bothering with the sub but will explore going back to 2.1 again down the line with some proper eq for set up, set up poorly I think a sub really distracts the overall sound but will try either an antimode or minidsp. If that is successful I may well try adding a second sub.

I first uesd the croft into some Tapco S8's,which are aimed at the same market as the KRK's.It's was this combo which led me to the Paradigms! Although the Tapco's were very good value for money,they were not refined and the amps were quite cheap looking things! I've not heard the KRk's but i suspect they will have their limitations in certain areas!

I strongly suggest you try something of higher quality (whether from the pro or domestic field) as the croft will certainly appreciate it and you will hear more of what the croft can do!

[eisenach]

How are you getting on with this?

Partly going on what I've read on here, I bought a downward firing 400 on ebay to try with my ESL63s.
It's just arrived, but without the black feet fitted, and no bolts to fix them. BK say they've probably been pulled inside the cabinet by the speaker's magnetic field, so to get at them, I've got to take the amp pack out.

I'll need the correct tool to take out the bolts, I've no time this week-end because of family illness, and BK says taking the amp pack out isn't always straightforward because of the sticky gasket. Warm it with a heat gun !

Tell me it's all going to be worth it !

Well, I finally had time this evening to fiddle with the 400. BK were right, the bolts were inside.

So, plonked in front of the system, between the ESL63s for now, so I can get at the controls, plumbed in, and first impressions are ok. Keeping the sub's volume well down, you feel the bass rather than hear it. I've tried a Bach Cantata (BWV61), some Bach organ music, the Tag McLaren demo disc which has various "well recorded" pieces on it from Chesky, Telarc and others, and some jazz. I'm sure there's plenty of scope for tweaking, but it's a good start. Maybe the bass is just a tad slow.

Can anyone give a quick explanation of what the phase control does ? (I know, it shifts the phase, but ...?!) At the moment I've got it set half way. There's no mention in the manual.

[Gordon Steadman]

I finally found a combination that really works with the REL Quake.

The KEF101s really only operate down to 80/90 htz. I've been using them with the TEAC A-R600 on the Mac in the snug of late and they are extremely enjoyable. The snug is just that this weather so we tend not to listen to the main system when its really cold - frozen water everywhere outside this morning.

As the TEAC has two speaker outlets, its dead easy to connect the REL to the second set and switch them in and out to compare. They integrate very well indeed, much better than they ever did with the Quads. The response seems much more even with the turnover point up at around 70htz.

Real and solid bass on Time Out with the KEFs singing cleanly above. I don't think I'm gonna sell the REL now:)

[AlexM]

Well, I finally had time this evening to fiddle with the 400. BK were right, the bolts were inside.

So, plonked in front of the system, between the ESL63s for now, so I can get at the controls, plumbed in, and first impressions are ok. Keeping the sub's volume well down, you feel the bass rather than hear it. I've tried a Bach Cantata (BWV61), some Bach organ music, the Tag McLaren demo disc which has various "well recorded" pieces on it from Chesky, Telarc and others, and some jazz. I'm sure there's plenty of scope for tweaking, but it's a good start. Maybe the bass is just a tad slow.

Can anyone give a quick explanation of what the phase control does ? (I know, it shifts the phase, but ...?!) At the moment I've got it set half way. There's no mention in the manual.

Martin,

Good stuff - well done.

I think that the perception of 'slow bass' with subwoofers is often caused by a) too high a cut-off frequency or b) excitation of room modes at specific frequencies. Have you optimised the positioning of the sub by doing the 'subwoofer crawl', or are you just using best guess initial position?. What is the lower cut-off frequency of the ESL63, and where have you set the crossover control?. It seems that the ESL will be more challenging to set up than box speakers because of the likely bass cancellation (or augmentation) of the dipole. I'd experiment extensively with placement in as many possible places as you can. I have limited options, so I have to live with an element of room boom at some frequencies.

The phase control introduces a delay between the main speakers and the sub of betweem 0 degrees and 180 degrees. It is intended for aligning the phase output of the sub and main speakers at the crossover frequency to account for differences in distance between the sub, the speakers and the listening position. I'd start with zero, and then try the other extreme (180), but experiment with this to get the cleanest overlap.

There is a good description of the process of subwoofer setup on Youtube here - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzCIMufCQLk

[Oldpinkman]

Just sitting enjoying "quiet" music while we browse the web. Quiet is probably the level my parents would have listened to TV at when their hearing was at its best. This really brings home the benefit of the sub in the system, and the quality of the blend. It may not be the most refined, and I suspect there is a bit more fettling to be done, but it has transformed this sort of listening. Quiet, but rich and satisfying :)

[eisenach]

What cut off do you use with ESL63s ?

[eisenach]

Hmm, I'm not sure how much of a success this is.
I've rolled the cut off down, and in many ways it seems to integrate quite well with the esl63s, but:
- I now hear a much greater difference between CD and SACD (probably not a bad thing, as SACDs generally sound great, although CD seems much "flatter" sounding than before).
- especially with CD, the top end sounds "rougher" than without the subwoofer running.
I'm using the speaker level input, taken direct from the output of the 606 as shewn in the manual.
More listening to do, I think.

[Oldpinkman]

Martin

I have zero phase, about 45-50hz cut-off, and 1/3 volume (quite close to a wall, not really in a corner). I am listening mostly on vinyl, but my dac is very vinyly sounding too. Have only just started experimenting with other file formats (no HDCD on my Dac, and even for me, pretty unlikely I can source a filter). Will be trying higher bit rate FLAC's once my Raspberry Pi streamer is fully operational.

"Not too much" is the basic advice. The key is to get used to it at "not too much" so you think its not there, and then turn it off, and realise what you were missing :cool:

[eisenach]

Thanks, Richard.
Your set up sounds very similar to what I've settled on so far; I've probably got it turned down a bit less.
Had a good listen to various things today, including Radio 3. Most of the time you don't notice it's there, but every now and again, you realise how good the bass is. The jazz on R3 was very good this afternoon.
There are also downsides; suddenly the passing traffic outside Kings College is very intrusive, rather than just there, and the underground trains on some old Kingsway Hall recordings make the floor shake !
I'm about 85% convinced so far.
Martin

[AlexM]

I'm using a similar setup with my xxls400, which has the 24db/octave option. Cut off set to 40-50hz, volume about 1/3, phase 0 degrees.

The position is right in a corner, which I think is not ideal in my room as it does excite some room modes, but the balance is mostly about right. I am limited in my positioning options, and am considering an antimode DSP to improve overall frequency response smoothness.

Bass certainly goes very low, sounds clean and integrates well with my main speakers. Overall I'm very pleased, and I think the XXLS400 is excellent value for money - lets not forget that this is the price of a mains lead for interconnect for some of us!.

It is interesting how low frequency sounds often seem to reveal more of the ambience of a recording for some reason, and it is always fun to discover LF effects in recordings that you missed before.

[occamsrazor]

An interesting thread... Anyone here tried the ATC C1 sub and/or compared it with other subs? I have a pair of ATC SCM-11s powered by Hypex Ncore monoblocks and am considering a sub to accompany...

[CageyH]

I am now more interested in this thread than before.
Currently I have an MJ Acoustics Pro 50 sub connected up with my Frugels just to cope with the real low stuff. It seems to work well.
I am thinking of adding a 2nd sub, but can't find an MJ Acoustics dealer in France, but BK seem to sell them here through eBay.
The Gemini seems to be the closest match. Would this be a good idea, or should I track down a later model MJ Acoustucs Pro 50. I doubt I could find a Mk1 like I have.

[AlexM]

Depends what your budget is.. I think the idea of stereo subs is a good one, and makes it very much easier to integrate them properly with the room and the speakers. I am wondering where I could put a second XXLS400 without my wife knowing :).

It may well be that you could add a dissimilar sub in a different part of the room and get a lot of benefit. I love my XXLS400 because it is really hard to hear that it's working - maybe consider that as a 2nd sub to work alongside your MJ Pro 50?

[AlexM]

or this...

https://www.avforums.com/review/bk-electronics-p12-300sb-subwoofer-review.11864