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Spectral Morn
06-08-2009, 20:02
Having just watched a program about Harry Patch on BBC2 earlier about the writing of a poem for Harry, I was moved to write one too. I haven't written a poem since school and I just felt moved to do so. Its a bit rough round the edges but to polish it might ruin it so I wont.The names are those who have died recently the first name is that of my wifes grandfather who fought in the war to end all wars, as did the others. The names are not in chronological order. Be kind.



WHY ?




Darkness comes, flashes of light and sound. No relief with dawns early light.

Cold, huddling together for warmth, the stench of fear fills the air. With the dawn comes the order, "over the top" we must go, why? Men reduced to children, yet rising to fight in the dawns early light.
Over the top into the hail. A hard rain of death. Metal, small and large rip through the air, like the buzz of insects but each sting can bring death. Why?

They rise to fight. Men like Loyans, Patch, Allingham, Stone, Kastner and Ponticelli, just names on a role call, ready to rise to the call, to enter the light.Why ? Each man finds a place, a memory to go too, to do what others can't imagine. Over the top into the light, into the gates of Hell. Why?

The holes, the water, the mud. Not all who fall find the kiss of death in shards of metal. The slow sinking in mud and drowning in water. Holding a hand, comforting the dying, a moment of humanity, love in hell....why ? Back and forward over this land, not our land...why? To walk in mud thats not our own....why? The darkness, pain, terror and death....why ?

Why did we survive ? What made us special to see the light of further summers days, when so, so many fell. The seasons pass, and the sounds of nature...oh so preferred to the whiz and bang of man made terrors. We live and they died...why ? Each 11th we stand and remember and ask...why? The rows grow thinner each passing season, the ranks of brothers that stood, stand with us....why?

And now they are gone, the last of the few and now it is we who must ask the question why ? We who must not forget, and hold their memory close to our hearts. For it is us now who stand in the light and watch the seasons go by. It is us who honour their sacrifice, but still we should ask...why?

They experienced the best and worst that man can do to man....why ?



Regards D S D L

DaveK
06-08-2009, 21:24
Hi Neil,
Liked the poem. Never quite got into poetry when I was a kid at school, possibly because we were 'force fed' stuff that I suspect we weren't old enough to understand and appreciate.
Just as an aside, being a 'grumpy old man' I do tend to look down a little on the behaviour and standards of modern day youth (not like they were in my day ;) - thank God some might say :lolsign: ). But, by all the accounts that I have heard, the crowd of bystanders at Harry's funeral service was well populated by members of the younger generation who all showed their respect, maintained a dignified silence at the appropriate times, and some even wore black ties with their more usual attire - there may be hope yet for us all :) .
Cheers,
Not Quite So Grumpy.

Spectral Morn
06-08-2009, 21:44
Hi Neil,
Liked the poem. Never quite got into poetry when I was a kid at school, possibly because we were 'force fed' stuff that I suspect we weren't old enough to understand and appreciate.
Just as an aside, being a 'grumpy old man' I do tend to look down a little on the behaviour and standards of modern day youth (not like they were in my day ;) - thank God some might say :lolsign: ). But, by all the accounts that I have heard, the crowd of bystanders at Harry's funeral service was well populated by members of the younger generation who all showed their respect, maintained a dignified silence at the appropriate times, and some even wore black ties with their more usual attire - there may be hope yet for us all :) .
Cheers,
Not Quite So Grumpy.

Hi Dave


Thanks I wrote it very quickly as the spirit took me. I must confess to not being into poetry much but when the muse calls, I went with her and thats the result.

I take the 11th of Nov very seriously and observe the silence.

I think the most moving thing about Harry's funeral was that the coffin was carried by solders of several nations, including Germany.

To all who fought in the two wars.... Thank You.



Regards D S D L

DaveK
06-08-2009, 22:07
Hi Dave,
I take the 11th of Nov very seriously and observe the silence.
I think the most moving thing about Harry's funeral was that the coffin was carried by solders of several nations, including Germany.
To all who fought in the two wars.... Thank You.
Regards D S D L

Ditto 110% to all above. The only comment I would add is to include Korea, Malaya, Kenya, Palestine (the Jews executing those three British sergeants was criminal), Cyprus, Falklands and probably others that I can't remember.
The phrases "Lions led by donkeys" and "Plus ca change, plus la meme chose" spring immediately mind. Then they rub our noses in it, presumably just to demonstrate that we, the British public, are totally spineless as a whole, by appointing Tony bLIAR as Middle East Peace Envoy - the mind boggles - whoever thought that he would be acceptable in the places that matter when discussing peace in the Middle East needs certfying on the evidence of that fact alone IMHO.
And on that hopeful note I'll close and retire to bed.:lol:
Cheers,

Alex_UK
06-08-2009, 23:03
Neil, firstly let me say I have no real experience of poetry since school, though I have done other creative writing since then, including some song lyrics.

I thought it was really good, and a very fitting tribute - I must admit to feeling a bit choked watching it on the news, God rest his, and all their souls.

The Vinyl Adventure
06-08-2009, 23:55
i have to admit to being unaware of this chap until my fiancee told me about the funeral today. thinking about it i realise have have seen him on tv in programs about the wars etc, but i wouldnt have known his name!
it is sad, but also difficult to find the correct emotions! there are many things to take into account


did this chap want to be remembered for being the last english man alive that was a part of such an autrosity

i hope he accepted the honor of being branded a hero, but what if he felt the oposite

i hope he did understand how brave everyone concidors him to have been

I wonder also how he felt about his noteriety concidering all the lost, I hope he realised it helped people think about the millions others

aparently he didnt talk to anyone about his experience until much later in life... what effect can that have had on him

i feel thankfull, but i dont realy understand why, i live in a different world

today is an occation when a part of the past becomes history as aposed to a memory - if that makes sence

i dunno.. the only emotion i can realy grasp is respect

maybe im just to young to have any real insight into that part of our countrys past

needless to say the poem is a tribute and that is much more than most of us are capable of, and for that i also have the upmost of respect!

Spectral Morn
07-08-2009, 06:25
Hi guys


Thank you for your kind words.

I did not mention any other conflicts because unlike the two great wars their history is perhaps more difficult.

In this century the only war that could IMVHO be said to be a righteous war would be the WW2...for well known reasons. The 1st was a disaster and its origins very difficult. Why the murder of an Arch Duke, should have plunged the world into this awful, badly conceived and planned mess is beyond me, but it did. In situations few of us can imagine men and boys fought and died and my question would be for what ? A few yards of mud.

It would seem that most who fought in the wars (perhaps all wars) don't consider them selves to be special, they are a humble breed. Harry Patch made the decision to fight to wound and not kill unless he had no choice and I respect him greatly for that choice. He was a brave man as all were and those still alive are.

Watch the first 15 mins of Saving private Ryan to witness the horrors of that war. For the first, All quiet on the Western Front, is a good place to start. I don't think I could/would be so brave in those conditions.

I once spoke with a man, when a salesman in a TV shop and found out that he could not buy Philips TV/Products (not a bad thing as reliability is poor with that brand). The reason....during the war he was a fighter bomber pilot flying Beau-fighters and Blenhiems. He once had to bomb the Philips factories in Holland. He knew that he had killed Dutch people and not just Germans. I think he found it hard to live with that fact.

The mental scars are in many ways worse than the physical ones, flesh can heel but can the mind having witnessed such horror.



Regards D S D L

Barry
11-08-2009, 23:03
Neil, Apologies for the slow reply.

The news of Harry Patch's death, the recent death of Henry Allingham and your poem have all given me cause for thought.

First of all congratulations on your poem. Far better than enything I could come up with. Don't alter it; the spontaneity would be spoilt.

You say that you are not 'into' poetry. Have you ever read any of Wilfred Owen's WWI poems? Do give them a try. If you have difficulty reading poems, but like the lyrics of Leonard Cohen, then I can recommend Cohen's

Leonard Cohen Poems 1956 - 1968, Johnathan Cape, 1969, ISBN 0 224 61776 1

The Energy of Slaves, Johathan Cape, 1972, ISBN 0 224 00817

I have to confess that I'm a bit of a poetry fan. Know what I like, if not why I like it. Considered to be a bit of a girly think, but hey I don't care; I'm a member of AoS, so I'm going to come out! Poets I like are:

R. D. Laing, 'Knots', Penguin, 1970;

Yevgeny Yevtushenko, 'Selected Poems', Penguin, 1970;

T. S. Eliot, 'The Complete poems and Plays', Faber, 1969, ISBN 0 571 08857 0;

as well as the the Liverpool poets: Adrian Henri, Roger McGough and Brian Pattern.

I like to read the 'epic' poems such as:

'The Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam';

'Beowolf';

La Chanson de Roland, Unwin, 1972, ISBN 0 04 841003 9 .


Anyway to return to Messrs Allingham and Patch. It occured to me that in this country we seem to have a distorted sense of duty and honour. The French awarded both of them the Legion d'Honneur, that's the French equivalent of a knighthood. Do we knight them? No! - being NCOs 'They were simply doing their job'. Funny how knighthoods are dished out willy-nilly to the captains of industry for simply 'doing their job'. And in the case of a certain F. Goodwin, the Queen should strip him of his title; awarded for 'services to banking'! What a bloody shambles this country has become! :steam:

Oh well there you go - closet poetry lover 'comes out' and has a left wing rant. Only in AoS. :eyebrows:

Regards

Spectral Morn
12-08-2009, 10:33
Hi Barry


Thank you for your kind words, about the poem.

I must confess that its not so much that I am not into poetry, reading it or writing it (though I did a bit when in school), its just that I suppose I favour long form writing such as short stories and novels. I am not really sure why.

It could well be that it is considered a female pursuit more than a male one (though I would love to see some one tell a Viking or Celtic warrior that hes a big girl for reading, quoting and writing such), but for me that would not be the reason. I have just never devoted any time to poetry. After watching the program about Harry Patch's poem, written by Andrew Motion it sparked something deep in me and I felt moved to write (perhaps badly) what I was feeling.

I think maybe I felt intimidated by the so called structures and rigidity of some poetry, but as my wife reminded me there is also a free form as well. We shall see if I write more.

Thanks for the suggestions.


Regards D S D L

DaveK
12-08-2009, 10:47
It occured to me that in this country we seem to have a distorted sense of duty and honour. The French awarded both of them the Legion d'Honneur, that's the French equivalent of a knighthood. Do we knight them? No! - being NCOs 'They were simply doing their job'. Funny how knighthoods are dished out willy-nilly to the captains of industry for simply 'doing their job'. And in the case of a certain F. Goodwin, the Queen should strip him of his title; awarded for 'services to banking'! What a bloody shambles this country has become! :steam:

Oh well there you go - to hell in a hand cart, to coin a phrase.

Regards
Hi Barry,
Totally agree with you on the above - to repeat myself, "Lyons led by donkeys", springs immediately to mind, and the lions get shredded whilst the donkeys get knighted and/or a big fat pension to ease their suffering!!
Sheeeeeesh :steam: what is the bloody country coming to?
Can't say "Cheers" as there's nothing in the above to be cheerful about, and yes I am a BLOODY grumpy old man !!!

Spectral Morn
12-08-2009, 10:53
Anyway to return to Messrs Allingham and Patch. It occured to me that in this country we seem to have a distorted sense of duty and honour. The French awarded both of them the Legion d'Honneur, that's the French equivalent of a knighthood. Do we knight them? No! - being NCOs 'They were simply doing their job'. Funny how knighthoods are dished out willy-nilly to the captains of industry for simply 'doing their job'. And in the case of a certain F. Goodwin, the Queen should strip him of his title; awarded for 'services to banking'! What a bloody shambles this country has become! :steam:

Oh well there you go - closet poetry lover 'comes out' and has a left wing rant. Only in AoS. :eyebrows:

Regards

I couldn't agree more with you. The honours set up in this country is crazy. Jonathan Ross for what, getting paid a fortune and talking a load of crap and such like, and he deserves a honour. It should go to those who have contributed most to the country in a selfless way. Thats the key word here selfless not seeking anything for themselves. I think the British do pomp and ceremony better than any other nation but at the core its for what ? The French do awards better IMHO as do many other nations. I found the D day coverage recently very moving, but particularly the French awarding those D Day veterans. They deserve so much more, but at least the French take thanking them more seriously than the UK does IMHO.

The UK does not even have a dedicated Veterans hospital anymore. Those coming back from Iraq and Afghanistan have to suffer abuse in NHS Hospitals. I though/prayed that there would be no more guys/gals like Ron Kovic's and that we would honour our troops (this is not the same as supporting the politics that sent them. Its important to remember that the Army does not make policy, only carries it out. Blame the politicians for stupid decisions). Sadly and to our countries shame this is not so. Witness the battle fought to gain the right to live in the UK by the Gurkha's. Okay to die and shed blood and limbs for the UK but win the right to settle here if they want, SORRY NO, PISS OFF.........unlike many they at least deserve the right to citizenship. At least they have it now sort of.



Regards D S D L

DaveK
12-08-2009, 11:07
I think maybe I felt intimidated by the so called structures and rigidity of some poetry, but as my wife reminded me there is also a free form as well. We shall see if I write more.

Regards D S D L

Hi Neil,
The poems that I like are the structured and rigid ones, maybe because I admire the discipline needed to confine often 'soft' romantic thoughts within a very hard rigid structure and still emerge with the emotion being expressed intact, or maybe 'cos when I was 'doing' poetry as a youngster at school I mistakenly 'learned' that a poem must rhyme.
I never quite undestood where the borders were/are between 'normal' writing, prose and free form poetry - what 'makes' a free form poem, what form must it take :doh: ) (perhaps a daft question, 'free' is the obvious answer), what rules must it follow, what disciplines must apply to a collection of words to make it a free form poem? Serious questions - there is a big gap in my education in this area.
Cheers,

Spectral Morn
12-08-2009, 11:15
Hi Neil,
The poems that I like are the structured and rigid ones, maybe because I admire the discipline needed to confine often 'soft' romantic thoughts within a very hard rigid structure and still emerge with the emotion being expressed intact, or maybe 'cos when I was 'doing' poetry as a youngster at school I mistakenly 'learned' that a poem must rhyme.
I never quite undestood where the borders were/are between 'normal' writing, prose and free form poetry - what 'makes' a free form poem, what form must it take :doh: ) (perhaps a daft question, 'free' is the obvious answer), what rules must it follow, what disciplines must apply to a collection of words to make it a free form poem? Serious questions - there is a big gap in my education in this area.
Cheers,

Yes rhyming poetry probably put me off....mine above does not really rhyme.

Those are good questions, perhaps Barry might want/be able to answer them.


Regards D S D L

DaveK
12-08-2009, 11:34
Hi guys


....during the war he was a fighter bomber pilot flying Beaufighters and Blenhiems. He once had to bomb the Philips factories in Holland. He knew that he had killed Dutch people and not just Germans. I think he found it hard to live with that fact.

The mental scars are in many ways worse than the physical ones, flesh can heel but can the mind having witnessed such horror.



Regards D S D L
Hi Neil,
Sorry for the late response to the above but have only just read it. It brought to mind a moment in my life it will be diificult to forget. A few years ago, when I was employed in the aerospace business I was once visiting the Fiat Avio factory in Napoli in the company of our Italian agent and we were being shown round the factory by one of their Purchasing Managers. I had 'known' both guys in a business sense for a number of years and I like to think that the relationship was more than usually amicable between us all. At one point we stopped opposite a small white stone plaque set in the ground in the middle of a small well kept lawn and garden. It was obviously of some significance to my two Italian friends but my scant knowledge of Italian left me clueless as to the meaning of the words on the plaque so I asked what they said. Imagine my feelings when I was told that it was a memorial to the hundreds of people that had been killed during the war when they were entombed in the underground workshops on the site when they were decimated by a British bombing raid. I can still remember the shiver that ran through my body at that moment and I still marvel at the total lack of any edge to their voices or attitude when they told me this or afterwards during our further dealings, that day or any other. The human spirit for foregiveness is wonderful and bodes well for the future hope that man's hostility to his fellow man will never again sink to such levels - the more we get to know people the less we want to go to war with them.
Philosophy lesson over - dismiss!

Spectral Morn
12-08-2009, 11:39
Hi Dave

We live in hope.



Regards D S D L

DaveK
12-08-2009, 12:15
To Marco,
Thank goodness someone had the good taste to remove your tasteless post before it was widly circulated, but not before my e-mail system notified me of it's wording. You are beyond redemption - there is sadly no hope for you :(

Marco
12-08-2009, 12:23
I removed it myself, Dave, at Neil's request. Apologies for any offence caused.

Marco.

DaveK
12-08-2009, 13:38
I removed it myself, Dave, at Neil's request. Apologies for any offence caused.

Marco.

Hi Guys,
Neil, good on you.
Marco, no offence caused - having spent almost all my life in a mining and steelmaking community it would take a lot more than that to offend me, in the sense of prudery. I just thought that it was inappropriate in the context of the thread in which it was posted - in a more appropriate context it would have raised a smile on my face as wide as anybody else's, but not in that context.
Hope we are still 'cool' - no permanent damage intended or sustained?
Cheers,
PS.
If not still cool, PLEASE don't take it out on my cartridge and headshell, or the LPs to be sent shortly, (hopefully). :lolsign:

Marco
12-08-2009, 14:16
LOL, Dave - there's no problem whatsoever, matey. I'm definitely not that 'precious', and I see neither are you! :eyebrows: :smoking:

Marco.

DaveK
12-08-2009, 18:58
LOL, Dave - there's no problem whatsoever, matey. I'm definitely not that 'precious', and I see neither are you! :eyebrows: :smoking:

Marco.
Hi Marco,
No hard (sorry, probably wrong word in this context :lol: ) feelings then, that's good.
Forgive me if I'm missing a trick here or having another senior moment but I thought that I had a reasonable command of the English language and I don't think I'm familiar with the use of the word "precious" in this context - did you mean "precocious" (sp?) which might be a bit more appropriate?
Anyway. no problems, you'll always be precious to me :lolsign: .
Cheers,

Barry
14-08-2009, 15:40
Yes rhyming poetry probably put me off....mine above does not really rhyme.

Those are good questions, perhaps Barry might want/be able to answer them.


Regards D S D L

Tricky one, but I’ll do my best.

I don’t think there is any difference between what you call ‘normal writing’ and prose. Prose is writing that resembles everyday speech (> Latin prosa (oratio): straightforward (discourse)). It lacks the formal structure of rhyme or metre (pace), typical of poetry. Prose is composed of full sentences that have a grammatical and syntactical structure of subject, object and verb.

Poems have a pace or rhythm called a meter. The last words at the ends of the lines may or may not rhyme. As with any metre, it is not necessary that every line should be entirely slavish in following the rhythm; in fact, being so could make the poem sound dull. Swapping, dropping or adding stressed and unstressed syllables will lend variety to a line without changing the underlying rhythm.

Poems in iambic pentameter may or may not rhyme. Those that are written in continuous lines of unrhymed iambic pentameter are said to be in blank verse, while rhyming couplets in iambic pentameter may be called ‘heroic couplets’, particularly when each couplet closes a thought or sentence on its second line

Blank verse then is poetry that is written in unrhymed iambic pentameter, and the meter is often unobtrusive. Iambic pentameter is the name given to a line of verse that consists of five iambs (an iamb, or ‘foot’, being one unstressed syllable followed by one stressed, for example in the word: “before”). It has been a fundamental building block of poetry in English, used in many poems by many poets from the English Renaissance to the present day. Iambic pentameter often resembles the patterns of ordinary speech and mimics the human heartbeat. As a rhythm, iambic pentameter sounds like:

"di-dum di-dum di-dum di-dum di-dum".

Examples of blank verse can be found in Shakespeare, here’s an excerpt from ‘Macbeth’:

Tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow,
Creeps in this pretty pace from day to day,
To the last syllable of recorded time;
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out brief candle!
Life’s but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more; it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.

Or Shakespeare’s Sonnet (number 18)

Shall I compare thee to a Summer's day?
Thou art more lovely and more temperate:
Rough winds do shake the darling buds of May,
And Summer's lease hath all too short a date:
Sometime too hot the eye of heaven shines,
And oft' is his gold complexion dimm'd;
And every fair from fair sometime declines,
By chance or nature's changing course untrimm'd:
But thy eternal Summer shall not fade
Nor lose possession of that fair thou owest;
Nor shall Death brag thou wanderest in his shade,
When in eternal lines to time thou growest:
So long as men can breathe, or eyes can see,
So long lives this, and this gives life to thee.

This is all in iambic pentameter it should go:

"di-dum di-dum di-dum di-dum di-dum",

but in this case it goes:

"di-dum di-dum dum-di di-dum di-dum"

"Now is the winter of our discontent" and "A horse, a horse, my kingdom for a horse" is another.

Once you know the rhythm they're easy to spot

Free form poetry or free verse originated in the late 19th century in France amongst poets such as author Rimbaud who sought to free poetry from the formal metrical regularity of the Alexandrine: a line of 12 syllables (or 13 if the last is unstressed), so called because some 12 and 13th century poems about Alexander the Great were written in that style. In English, an iambic hexameter (that is, six iambs to a line) is often called Alexandrine.

Free verse is poetry organized according to the cadences of speech and image patterns, rather than according to a regular metrical scheme. Its rhythms are based on patterned elements such as sounds, words, phrases, sentences, and paragraphs, rather than on the traditional units of metrical feet. Free verse thus eliminates much of the artificiality and some of the aesthetic distance of poetic expression. It became current in English poetics in the early 20th century, especially amongst the American poets.

Not sure if I have made this any clearer to you. In some ways it’s best not to worry about these things – just get stuck in, and read the poems you enjoy.

Regards

Spectral Morn
14-08-2009, 16:16
WOW......................


Excellent explanation.


Thank you Barry


Regards D S D L

Barry
14-08-2009, 22:05
WOW......................


Excellent explanation.


Thank you Barry


Regards D S D L

Thanks Neil,

Whilst I understand and salute you for the reasons for changing your avatar - it is nice to see those curmudgeonly old Daleks back again!

Regards

Alex_UK
14-08-2009, 22:15
it is nice to see those curmudgeonly old Daleks back again!

I trhought the same, not sure it is necessarily appropriate to drift this thread (so apologies if anyone is offended) but with the current avatar Neil I just keep thinking "big heeeeeead!"

Sorry, Friday night + difficult week + too much bordeaux = my drivel!

Barry
14-08-2009, 22:17
....
Sorry, Friday night + difficult week + too much bordeaux = my drivel!

Yep me too! Gets like that from time to time.

Regards

DaveK
15-08-2009, 07:47
WOW......................
Excellent explanation.
Thank you Barry
Regards D S D L

Hi Barry,
Thanks very much for the comprehensive explanation - I can only but echo Neil's comments. I am now a little wiser but I should need to read it a few more times, (which I will do, honest :) ), before I fully grasp it all.
It may be be my engineering background, or it may just be my weird mind, but I see a lot of maths in rhyming poetry. It's all about patterns, which in turn is all about maths, in fact, to stretch it a bit further, if you swap your 'di's and 'dum's for 1s and 0s you could equate it to digital. There's a thought, computers writing romantic rhymes - told you I had a weird mind :lol:
Thanks again and
Cheers,

Joe
15-08-2009, 08:18
It may be be my engineering background, or it may just be my weird mind, but I see a lot of maths in rhyming poetry. It's all about patterns, which in turn is all about maths, in fact, to stretch it a bit further, if you swap your 'di's and 'dum's for 1s and 0s you could equate it to digital.

So that would make free verse the equivalent of analogue!

DaveK
15-08-2009, 08:59
So that would make free verse the equivalent of analogue!

Hi Joe,
Another weird mind I see :lol: . I like the thinking - are you a Goons and/or Milligan fan by any chance?
Cheers,

Joe
15-08-2009, 09:04
Hi Joe,
Another weird mind I see :lol: . I like the thinking - are you a Goons and/or Milligan fan by any chance?
Cheers,

Of course! I'm just too young to have heard the radio shows first time around, but loved 'The Telegoons' which was broadcast in 1963.

Barry
15-08-2009, 20:18
Hi Barry,
Thanks very much for the comprehensive explanation - I can only but echo Neil's comments. I am now a little wiser but I should need to read it a few more times, (which I will do, honest :) ), before I fully grasp it all.
It may be be my engineering background, or it may just be my weird mind, but I see a lot of maths in rhyming poetry. It's all about patterns, which in turn is all about maths, in fact, to stretch it a bit further, if you swap your 'di's and 'dum's for 1s and 0s you could equate it to digital. There's a thought, computers writing romantic rhymes - told you I had a weird mind :lol:
Thanks again and
Cheers,

Interesting idea Dave.

Certainly there is a lot of mathematical ideas in music, whether or not the composer was aware of them (think Bach) and a lot of mathematicians are good amateur musicians. Clearly however mathematics is not the be-all and end-all of music; 6/8 time is not the same as 3/4 time and not all Blues have 12 beats to the bar.

I think the meter in verse is closer to the time signature of music or the number of beats to the bar. So in that way, not all verse written in say iambic pentameter, necessarily has the same beat. And of course there are other meters in which to write verse.

There have been attempts in the past to program computers to compose verse - none of it has been very good. I think more success has been made in computer generated haiku: Japanese non-rhyming verse of 17 syllables written in three lines of 5, 7 and 5 syllables, involving a word or phrase connected with the seasons of Nature. Trouble with writing haiku is that there are very subtle technicalities in the weight of the syllables. As an example that last word 'syllables' - syl/a/bles, the last syllable: 'bles' has additional stress placed on it so would count as two in haiku. Difficult isn't it?

Perhaps we could have a new thread 'hi-fi haiku'?

Regards

Beechwoods
15-08-2009, 21:12
You may have noticed Mike H popularising the form already (see his current sig...)