View Full Version : Mike Homar's Digital Cable
Covenant
06-08-2009, 16:48
I have been surprised recently about the difference in digital cables. I have had a Gotham for a few years and didnt think it was bad but then got a Belden from Gazjam. This was a big step up and convinced me that there were significant differences in cable design and quality.
Today a cable arrived FOC from Mike Homar. Very nice and expensive looking connectors on the end of a white cable. Nearly wrecked my 7520 trying to push them into place before I realised they were locking RCA's :o
Wow, when I played some music Bob Dylan jumped out of my speakers and shook hands with me. This is a big an upgrade as changing an op-amp to me.
Now perhaps Mr Homar would explain the design of his cables?
Now perhaps Mr Homar would explain the design of his cables?
Nope! :eyebrows:
Wow, when I played some music Bob Dylan jumped out of my speakers and shook hands with me. This is a big an upgrade as changing an op-amp to me.
Oh Shit !!! I suppose that this means I am going to have to wait a long time before you pass them onto me to opine on, if you pass them on at all !!! :lolsign:
Just joking Jerry, I've got more things to opine on than I can handle at the moment, so enjoy the experience.
Cheers,
Covenant
07-08-2009, 10:33
Cough, splutter ahem well......it might be a while.......
Love to try Mike's analogues wonder if he might sell me a pair?
I'm sure something could be arranged. :)
Anyway, back to that digital i/c... The 'Shian7 SOF Digital' as I have come to call it! :lol:
The 'secret' is more to do with what's not in it, to be honest. SOF stands for Snake Oil Free.
It's all down to using a quality, true 75ohm, cable which is fit for purpose, and good RCA plugs. In this case WBT. The choice of connectors is due to the fact that WBT claim them to be 75ohm characteristic impedance.
This 75ohm lark is important. As far as I am aware, only WBT and Canare make a phono plug and claim 75ohms, which is interesting. I have some reservations about any RCA phono connector having a true 75ohm characteristic impedance but as that's what so many DAC's use we're more or less stuck with it, BNC would be a MUCH better connector for this... but there we go!
Anyway... I like good quality connectors. So there! :smoking:
Basically, it's all down to using quality components and building it with care. 30 years experience in digital transmission doesn't hurt either. ;)
ATB...
BTW, I'll be making a few more of these sometime soon if anyone would like to try one.
Cheers...
Beechwoods
07-08-2009, 18:06
I would, Mike - if you could. I'd be happy to make up my own cables to be honest, I just don't know the secret ingredients. It would be interesting to try one of yours out and then come up with a 'Beechwoods Special Edition' once I'd figured out the magic :)
OK... consider yourself at the top of the list! :)
Beechwoods
07-08-2009, 19:02
Thank you!
Love to try Mike's analogues wonder if he might sell me a pair?
There's a pair of my latest with Marco ATM, awaiting a second opinion, so stay tuned!
I'm half hoping he says "they're shite" though... they're an absolute ball ache to put together. About half a days work! :steam:
How deep are you're pockets? :lolsign:
Covenant
07-08-2009, 20:04
About to be heavily depleted because of the boiler situation. The engineer quoted about £3600 yesterday, the quote arrived today and its gone up to £4300!
Jerry...
I did the BG thing earlier this year... Erm, what can I say?... Apart from "there are better deals to be had"! ;)
Covenant
07-08-2009, 20:47
Note to Dave and others:
DONT try this cable unless you are willing to buy it because you will not want to return it believe me.
Note to Dave and others:
DONT try this cable unless you are willing to buy it because you will not want to return it believe me.
Hi Jerry,
You're full of buulshit you are :lolsign: we all know what you're up to :lol: you don't want to pass them on and if you can reduce the demand for them, Mike might let you have 'em for a lower price !!
No bloody chance - I'm too old a bird to be caught with chaff!!. We're all supposed to be chums on here, so play the game and share the joy or I'll have a word with my friends at BG and remind them about something significant that they might have left out of their quote ;)
Enjoy them whilst you have them, but not too long :lol:
Cheers,
Covenant
07-08-2009, 23:09
Ha ha ha Dave.... too late... I have bought the cable!
Its all mine I tell you all mine!
Spectral Morn
08-08-2009, 07:09
Ha ha ha Dave.... too late... I have bought the cable!
Its all mine I tell you all mine!
Looks like you will have to make more Mike.............;)
Regards D S D L
Currently playing with Mike's analogue interconnects...
I had a quick listen last night and initial impressions are good. Instrumental detail and voices are given nice 'texture', rhythms flow seamlessly, and the top end is sweet and completely grain-free, if a little recessed and lacking in leading edge definition, compared to my reference Mark Grant cables.
There is also definite 'correct' directionality, that I have identified, but which I will allow others when trying the cable to determine... ;)
I'll let the cables burn-in over the course of the week, trying them with different types of music, and report back later :cool:
Marco.
Please humour me with this question - Have you ever measured standard phono plugs for capacitance? On audio cables with ss equipment and their lowish impedance characteristics compared to valve gear, I found this made as much if not more difference than the wires themselves. Not able to do the maths, i'm not sure of this was just imagination or something genuinely important?
Mike, I've been trying digi cables again recently (ask Marco about the Belden...) and if its possible I'd be really interested to compare yours to the bag of "usual suspects" I have here (Belden, Gotham, NVA..etc)
Thanks!
Gaz.
Currently playing with Mike's analogue interconnects...
I had a quick listen last night and initial impressions are good. Instrumental detail and voices are given nice 'texture', rhythms flow seamlessly, and the top end is sweet and completely grain-free, if a little recessed and lacking in leading edge definition, compared to my reference Mark Grant cables.
There is also definite 'correct' directionality, that I have identified, but which I will allow others when trying the cable to determine... ;)
I'll let the cables burn-in over the course of the week, trying them with different types of music, and report back later :cool:
Marco.
Marks IC's still that good Marco?
Good stuff - I retried the LV16s I have here, not as big a surprise as the Belden digicable, still a wee bit meh sounding.
But Marks new ones sound good!
Please humour me with this question - Have you ever measured standard phono plugs for capacitance? On audio cables with ss equipment and their lowish impedance characteristics compared to valve gear, I found this made as much if not more difference than the wires themselves. Not able to do the maths, i'm not sure of this was just imagination or something genuinely important?
I haven't, to be honest... but I can! :)
I've pretty much 'settled' on a digi cable design now, but analogue cables are a whole different kettle of fish! Bloody things never seem to behave predictably! :lol:
I'm not 100% happy with the cables Marco is trying out, hence the need for his second opinion. They can sound a bit too 'creamy', like an over egged pudding! Good in the right situation, but... :scratch:
Marks IC's still that good Marco?
Good stuff - I retried the LV16s I have here, not as big a surprise as the Belden digicable, still a wee bit meh sounding.
But Marks new ones sound good!
Gaz,
Yep - they are without doubt the cables (digital or analogue) with the least 'sound' I've ever heard. This is all I want from cables, as I never use them as tone controls.
Are you still using the Belden digi cable, then? From your description above it's unclear which is "meh sounding" - the Belden analogue or digital cable :)
I agree with Dave... Plugs (and how they're crimped or soldered) make a huge difference!
Mikey, "creamy" is a good description for how your cables sound, which is not an effect I would seek to have in my system. We'll see how it goes over the coming week, though :cool:
Marco.
jandl100
10-08-2009, 07:01
BTW, I'll be making a few more of these sometime soon if anyone would like to try one.
Cheers...
Coo. I wouldn't at all mind a try, Mike! :)
__
In response to Marco's PMed query of a week or so back (while I was sorting out a bit of hassle with a tt deal) .... I'm now using the Belden-reversed digi cable, but with a different CD transport unit. My AudioSynthesis/Sony CDT was too bright and forward with the Belden and the StanDAC Caiman ... so I now use my Yamaha DV-LX50 DVD player (as a transport with co-ax digi output into the Caiman for CD playback) - a richer and fuller sound that blends well with what I still think is a rather bright Belden sound.
Synergy! - that's the key. :)
Covenant
10-08-2009, 07:39
Coo. I wouldn't at all mind a try, Mike! :)
__
Oh No, I can see it now! Jerry will like the cable, it will become the new fad, Mike will go into mass production and will become rich. Then he wont be bothered with this place when he is swanning round the south of France in his yacht.
Ahhhhhhhhhh!
Mike will go into mass production and will become rich.
Fat chance!.... have you seen the price of WBT plugs? :lol:
I need to sell about 8 cables at the prices I charge just to buy a can of Tesco larger and a bag of crisps! :cool:
Actually... I've ordered some different phono's to try, gonna see if I can make em even cheaper! :eyebrows:
Hi Jerry,
In response to Marco's PMed query of a week or so back (while I was sorting out a bit of hassle with a tt deal) .... I'm now using the Belden-reversed digi cable, but with a different CD transport unit. My AudioSynthesis/Sony CDT was too bright and forward with the Belden and the StanDAC Caiman ... so I now use my Yamaha DV-LX50 DVD player (as a transport with co-ax digi output into the Caiman for CD playback) - a richer and fuller sound that blends well with what I still think is a rather bright Belden sound.
Synergy! - that's the key
Absolutely :)
The Belden/Mark Grant cables (analogue or digital) don't sound in any way bright in my system, or systems belonging to my friends. Therefore, it's not a case of it being "a rather bright Belden sound" (I don't think this is an inherent trait of the cables themselves), but rather the context in which they are used (i.e. the equipment they're partnered with) - like you say, it's all about synergy :cool:
Have you tried the Belden cables both ways round in their current application? If not, please do, and let me know what difference (if any) there is. I think it's important that people buying them know which way round to use them from the offset, or at least that they should experiment with this.
Marco.
Erm... what's that got to do with THIS thread, Marco?
Feel free to 'plug' (no pun intended) Mark Grant cables in a thread thats ABOUT Mark Grant cables as much as you like though... :steam:
Oi, shut it - I was merely responding to Jerry's observation :)
Anyway, thread drift is just part of AOS - you've been guilty of it yourself plenty of times elsewhere! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Oi, shut it
As you wish!
If anyone is interested an a cable they can contact me via m.homar(at)ntlworld.com
Ta...
Covenant
10-08-2009, 16:09
At the risk of repeating myself Mike's cables are ace. Really looking forward to a few people trying them.
Mike, I don't want to get too vulgar, but are you able to divulge the price of a "SOF" 1m digi interconnect (either publicly or by PM) - originally I wasn't going to connect my CD Player up to the Caiman as I thought the onboard DAC of a £600 CD player wouldn't be improved upon... (as you can guess, sounds like it can!) I have to say I am very sceptical about cables, not that I don't believe they make a difference, but that there are such huge differences and that some of the prices can in any way be justified... To try out the CD player/Caiman I got a Monster ebay special - entry level cable, 5 star WHF winner about 5 years ago, so probably a P.O.S. - would be interesting to see how your cable changes things (if I can afford one! ;) )
Covenant
10-08-2009, 17:21
Alex I think you are right to tread carefully. The differences between cables are there but it can be quite subtle. Personally I have been pleased with nearly all my cable purchases moving from freebies to the £30 odd pound mark. The old rule of spending about 10% of your equipment value on cables is fair I think and swapping/changing through a forum like this well worth it.
The Caiman deserves better than a Monster but not in monetry terms.
OK gents... 'Cards On The Table' time I think!
£40 delivered, on a strictly try-before-you-buy basis. I send you a cable, you try it for up-to a week. If you like it then pay me, if not return it.
Does that sound fair enough? :confused:
The £40 is for the version using WBT plugs which I have to pay full retail price for. I'm working on one using cheaper connectors which should come in at £25, but at the moment it's an unknown quantity. I'll be looking for a volunteer sometime soon to compare the two and give feedback.
I've just taken delivery of some more WBT's so as soon as I've got one built Ill post a photo too!
Cheers...
Oi, shut it
As you wish!
If anyone is interested an a cable they can contact me via m.homar(at)ntlworld.com
Ta...
Bah!... I had some witty replies up my sleeve and was ready for a bit of 'Marco baiting' but he's sussed me...
Methinks I have overplayed my hand with this baiting lark! :lol:
OK gents... 'Cards On The Table' time I think!
£40 delivered, on a strictly try-before-you-buy basis. I send you a cable, you try it for up-to a week. If you like it then pay me, if not return it.
Does that sound fair enough? :confused:
The £40 is for the version using WBT plugs which I have to pay full retail price for. I'm working on one using cheaper connectors which should come in at £25, but at the moment it's an unknown quantity. I'll be looking for a volunteer sometime soon to compare the two and give feedback.
I've just taken delivery of some more WBT's so as soon as I've got one built Ill post a photo too!
Cheers...
That all sounds fair enough to me Mike. I'm going to refresh myself from your other posts, and a photo would be good too, not that it really matters, though I do like a good cable visually - how barmy is that? (I'm a sucker for in-line mains plugs, even though they pinch two spaces on my mains conditioner...!)
Do you take PayPal, or would you prefer another payment method?
Do you take PayPal, or would you prefer another payment method?
I believe he has a penchant for young boys dancing around in leather pants ;)
:lol:
Marco.
I'm a bit old to be classed as a young boy, and it would take a bit more than an interconnect to get me dancing in leather pants - 2 interconnects, maybe! :eek:
I'm a bit old to be classed as a young boy, and it would take a bit more than an interconnect to get me dancing in leather pants - 2 interconnects, maybe! :eek:
Tart!!
I believe he has a penchant for young boys dancing around in leather pants ;)
:lol:
Marco.
Well I got a bit fed up with you noncing about in frocks! :ner:
Maybe Jerry could post a photo of his cable? :)
Covenant
10-08-2009, 19:59
Maybe Jerry could post a photo of his cable? :)
I beg your pardon, I'm not that kind of chap! :lol:
Would we need a widescreen TV, Jerry, to examine it in all its splendour? :eyebrows:
Marco.
Covenant
10-08-2009, 20:11
How do you take a close up photo?-I have tried taking about 10 and they all come out blurred. Best of a bad bunch attached
This 75ohm lark is important. As far as I am aware, only WBT and Canare make a phono plug and claim 75ohms, which is interesting. I have some reservations about any RCA phono connector having a true 75ohm characteristic impedance but as that's what so many DAC's use we're more or less stuck with it, BNC would be a MUCH better connector for this... but there we go!
This question is discussed (but not really answered) in:
www.bluejeanscable.co.uk/articles/75ohmrca.htm
The characteristic impedance of any cylindrical coaxial transmission line is proportional to the logarithm of the ratio of the diameter of the inner and outer conductors, and inversely proportional to the square root of the dielectric constant of the material that fills the space between the two conductors. This will also apply to any (coaxial) connector fitted to a coaxial cable.
Despite what Wikipedia state to be the diameter of the pin (inner conductor) and the inner diameter of the outer shield; based on some measurements I made using Vernier callipers on some 10 phono plugs and sockets, the inner pin has a diameter of 3.05mm and the outer diameter is 8.20mm.
Both WBT and Furutech state that Teflon (PTFE) is used as the insulating support. The dielectric constant is 2.1. Armed with this information one can calculate the characteristic impedance to be 40.92Ω. In practice the impedance is likely to be less than this since the thickness of the metal sleeve of both the outer part of the socket and that into which the pin fits need to be taken into account. Eichmann claim to make a socket of true 75Ω impedance, however since little can be done about the dimensions and even if it used no dielectric filling at all (apart from air) it would have an impedance of no greater than 59.3Ω.
Does this matter? No. Assuming that the length of the mated phono plug and socket is say 25mm, the electrical mismatch caused by a 25mm length of line with a characteristic impedance of 41Ω inserted in a system having a characteristic impedance of 75Ω is –86.8dB. This is because the length of the mismatch is very small compared with the wavelength (for 192kHz the wavelength in Teflon filled cable is 1077.5m). In fact the whole concept of characteristic impedance ceases to have any real meaning for cable lengths much less than λ/2π in length (or 171.5m in the present case).
If the digital output has a source impedance of 75Ω and the input impedance of the DAC is also 75Ω, then clearly it make sense to use cable of that impedance. WBT phono plugs look as though they can better continue the cylindrical symmetry of the cable to which they are fitted. In these respects it looks as though Mike's cable is a good design.
Regards
Here's one ready to go...
http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/531/p1013686.jpg
Cheers...
I think DaveC and Beechy were next?
I think DaveC and Beechy were next?
Yep!! - form an orderly queue behind me please! :lol::lol:
If it wasn't for a certain someone (no names, no pack drill but Petomaine seems appropriate) hanging on to his trial lead by buying it rather than passing it on (so sabotaging the maufacturers marketing plans in the process - who needs friends like that :lolsign: ), I would have had a lead on trial by now.
Cheers,
Covenant
11-08-2009, 20:22
Well Dave, when you know something is for you then you just gotta act....
And another thing its Le Petomane. Did you know at one point he was the highest paid entertainer in the world? Royalty would come to his shows. I wonder what Simon Cowell would say.......
Hi Jerry,
Well Dave, when you know something is for you then you just gotta act.... ......and what about your mates !!! If it wasn't for me (remember your lack of faith in the early stages that Jimmy could be persuaded to take the job on?), you'd only be enjoying half the improvement that you are now crowing about :ner::ner::ner: .And how do you repay me? - by depriving me of a lead you PROMISED to pass on - I thought that this forum was based on a spirit of frienship and mutual co-operation - I've half a mind (if I'm lucky :lol: ) to report you to Marco and then you'd be sorry !! He might even take you through that little door between his speakers!! ;)
And another thing its Le Petomane. That's not bad for me - ignoring the 'Le' I only got one letter wrong - and all that from a vague recollection of a photograph that I have seen somewhere before in my dim and distant past. Did you know at one point he was the highest paid entertainer in the world? Royalty would come to his shows. I wonder what Simon Cowell would say....... .... I know exactly what he'd say - sign here Monsiuer, s'il vous plait, and I will make you famous (and me very rich !!)
Cheers,
Covenant
11-08-2009, 21:34
You've got me there-Jimmy proved to be the man.
Hang on-your getting a cable from Mike and I bet you haven't even listened to the cable I sent you. AND I bet you haven't even finished your decorating....
Well Dave, when you know something is for you then you just gotta act....
And another thing its Le Petomane. Did you know at one point he was the highest paid entertainer in the world? Royalty would come to his shows. I wonder what Simon Cowell would say.......
Simon Cowell is an obnoxious, though wealthy petit pet.
Gents...
Erm, I'm afraid I've ran out of WBT plugs again. :doh: They seem popular! :)
If those who are still waiting can bear with me, I'll get some more and send myself bog-eyed making up more cables... It's all I've done all evening. I only build them in small batches as the plugs are pretty expensive and I can't really afford to buy stacks of them in one go and possibly end up with a load of cables that folk don't want. It's 'try-before-you-buy' after all! ;)
Thanks for being patient.
Cheers...
Hang on-your getting a cable from Mike and I bet you haven't even listened to the cable I sent you.
Oh yes I have :ner::ner::ner: but don't ask me what I think of it - all I can say is that it is no worse than the one it replaced and might be a bit better - having got a sound that I am highly delighted with (thanks Stan and thanks Jimmy) I am in no mood currently to swap leads just for the sake of testing - maybe later, but I will swap it out for Mike's and then post in CAPITAL letters how much better Mike's cable is :lolsign: :)
AND I bet you haven't even finished your decorating.... Oh yes I have :ner::ner::ner: and to prove it I will post some pics soon to invite criticism of my new layout, so there !!
Cheers,
Beechwoods
11-08-2009, 21:49
Simon Cowell is an obnoxious, though wealthy petit pet.
:lol: I always wondered why he wore his trousers in such a frightening peculiar, and tight, manner!
http://i560.photobucket.com/albums/ss49/aos_images/beechwoods/I_intprod1-8000base_214668a.jpg
I will swap it out for Mike's and then post in CAPITAL letters how much better Mike's cable is :lolsign: :)
Err... what if it isn't! :doh:
:lol: I always wondered why he wore his trousers in such a frightening peculiar, and tight, manner!
http://i560.photobucket.com/albums/ss49/aos_images/beechwoods/I_intprod1-8000base_214668a.jpg
WHY are you in possession of such a picture, eh? :eyebrows: I think we should be told! :lol:
Beechwoods
11-08-2009, 22:02
Och it was just a picture I had in my wallet ;) He is an inspiration. I may mock his trouserage but his nouse for identifying superlative pop-fodder is second to none :)
OK, I've just had a quick trawl through this thread and my PM's and as far as I can see there are the following people interested, and waiting, for a cable:
Gazjam
jandl100
Alex UK
If I've not missed anyone it ain't a big list, with a bit of luck I should be able to sort that out by the weekend. No promises though! ;)
Och it was just a picture I had in my wallet ;) He is an inspiration. I may mock his trouserage but his nous for identifying superlative pop-fodder is second to none :)
Go on admit it, you're a Stock-Waterman-Aitken fan !
Thanks Mike, definitely up for giving it a try - from the picture it looks great, but the proof of the pudding will of course be in the, erm, listening. (Well I wouldn't want to eat it! :confused:)
Err... what if it isn't! :doh:
I'll be honest, don't worry, but don't tell Jerry, I want to keep him on the defensive :lolsign:
Beechwoods
12-08-2009, 11:02
Go on admit it, you're a Stock-Waterman-Aitken fan !
Their stuff with Rick Astley certainly does stand the test of time.
Though these days Stock, Hausen and Walkman (http://www.sleepbot.com/ambience/page/stockhau.html) is more my thing ;)
Their stuff with Rick Astley certainly does stand the test of time.
Though these days Stock, Hausen and Walkman (http://www.sleepbot.com/ambience/page/stockhau.html) is more my thing ;)
Yes OK I'll concede that Rick Astley's stuff wasn't too bad.
Is their really a group called Stock, Hausen and Walkman? I'll check them out. Hope they live up to their title.
Blimey... there's thread drift and theres thread drift. As it goes, this must be one of the most bizarre! Rick bloody Astley indeed! :lolsign: :lol: :lol: :scratch:
Beechwoods
12-08-2009, 19:53
Is their really a group called Stock, Hausen and Walkman? I'll check them out. Hope they live up to their title.
He he heh! Stock, Hausen & Walkman do exist. Rather avant-garde ambient / plunderphonic samplers. I have one of theirs, Oh My Bag (http://www.simplesampling.com/OHmyBAG.htm)! (with a great foldout sleeve featuring many different varieties of sick bag) plus a few others on their Hot Air label: Medical Milestones (http://www.simplesampling.com/asswani.htm), Printing With Magnetic Inks (http://www.simplesampling.com/whatsup.htm) and, my personal fave, 1951: Sumatran Ladies Wearing Hats As Outlawed By Government (http://www.simplesampling.com/whatsup.htm). Printing With Magnetic Inks was made up of the sound made by, um, magnetic inks, when passed across a playback head. Odd stuff indeed.
JM1fXeX37YA
And that's got 'what' to do with Rick Astley, huh?.....
No, no, no, no no... a thousand times, no!.... I'm not listening. La La La La <puts fingers in ears> La La La.... etc, etc.
:lol: :lolsign:
Beechwoods
12-08-2009, 20:13
Does my edit help...? Strictly it has sod all to do with Rick Astley, except by 6 Degrees Of Separation, but isn't that what our 'continental' thread drift is all about he he heh :eyebrows: :lol:
'continental' drift
That reminds me of my racing days... I used to have special measuring equipment on my bike so that my own progress could be differentiated from the same. ;)
:lolsign:
Blimey... there's thread drift and there's thread drift. As it goes, this must be one of the most bizarre! Rick bloody Astley indeed! :lolsign: :lol: :lol: :scratch:
Oh I don't know: '75 Ohm' RCA phonos to Rick Astley - it's a natural progression.
Mind you, having just watched Nick's YouTube clip featuring Kate Bekinsale, maybe the thread drift could turn in a new and better direction.
Erm... OK! :scratch: :eyebrows: :lolsign:
Beechwoods
12-08-2009, 20:58
Kate Bekinsale
That's going to end up being the best watched clip on the whole of AOS now... shureley shome mishtake!
That's going to end up being the best watched clip on the whole of AOS now... shureley shome mishtake!
Yes, but they're going to have to listen to the Stock, Hausen and Walkman track before they can watch Kate. Doesn't AoS follow the Reithian principles of Information, Education and Entertainment?
Beechwoods
12-08-2009, 21:20
Aha! You Tube surfing... hours of fun, especially when you stumble across Kate Bekinsale!
I think DaveC and Beechy were next?
Hi Mike,
Cable received today, for which many thanks. If it sounds as good as it looks I shall be very happy. Give me a few days, over the weekend say, to have a proper listen. As you may have read on another thread things chez nous have been swapped round a bit lately, which is not going to help my judgements.
Cheers,
Err... what if it isn't! :doh:
Hi Mike,
Have no worries 'cos it is, by an order of magnitude. I can only agree with gaseous Jerry (Covenant) - this has got to be the best sound per pound upgrade ever (sorry Stan and Jimmy, the positions you held previously are no more, you have been leap-frogged by a simple (or maybe not so simple) length of wire :lol::lol: ).
My test piece was JMJ's Equinoxe, (no surprise there then :lol: ), the logic being that I am very familiar with it, know almost every note (or thought I did !), lots of high notes, lots of thumping bass and lots of short notes in rapid succession. So far this is all that I have listened to but the improved sound is so marked I can't imagine it not being carried over to whatever music was played.
Result: - everything was clearer, cleaner and more of what it should be (I know what I mean, hope you do). The cable it replaced was a 2.5m Belden Video Brilliance with Canare RCAP-C53 terminal phonos, not poor cable it's self - don't know who the previous owner was but I suspect Peter Stockwell may recognise them (don't hold me to that 'cos I'm not certain).
The test method was to play the CD first on my Blu-Ray as a source, then on my Marantz CD-63 mkII KI player, then swap leads and repeat. The rest of the 'chain' was Caimanised 7520 followed by Marantz PM6010OSE KI amp (set at Source Direct) and on to MS Mezzo 2 speakers.
This was the first time that I've sat down and had a proper listen to the system since the rearrangements, i.e. putting the speakers on the 'sideboard' instead of on the DIY stands and I have to say that I was more than a little disappointed with the Blu-Ray as source and began formulating reasons for bringing the stands back out of the garage. However things improved dramatically when using the CD player as source and thoughts of speaker stand return began to fade. (Note: -No attempt has yet been made to find the best place on the 'sideboard' for the speakers, I just placed them as near to where they would have been had they been on the stands).
Having thus confirmed that the CD player was a far better source for CDs than was the Blu-Ray I then swapped in Mike's cable between CD player and 7520 and pressed 'Play - the improvement was immediate and massive, I was hearing something I'd never heard before, despite having listened to this CD hundreds of times over the years, things not noticed before were very apparent and clear.
Due to speaker positioning it would be unfair to comment on width and depth of soundstage other than to say that I have heard better from my kit but I put that down totally to just plonking the speakers down instead of spending some time finding the optimum position.
I now come to the reason for titling this post "OH SHIT!!!!! There is no way, short of a court order and bailiffs at the door, that I am going to be parted from this lead. Unfortunately I can't afford to pay for it this month, having grossly overspent my budget, so I am appealing to Mike for generous credit terms :lol::lol::lol: or permission to pay towards the month end when budgets will be replenished. Given the fact that the cable it was replacing was a fairly good cable I suspected that any improvement offered would not justify the £40 asking price - boy, was I wrong!!
So Mike, I suspect that your finances are as stretched as mine, given your venture into manufacturing, but can you wait for a couple of weeks or so for payment? :)
Cheers,
PS now listening to Mahler's 5th, Adagio - sublime - not as familiar with it as JMJ but can honestly say I've never heard it better.
OK, I've just had a quick trawl through this thread and my PM's and as far as I can see there are the following people interested, and waiting, for a cable:
Gazjam
jandl100
Alex UK
If I've not missed anyone it ain't a big list, with a bit of luck I should be able to sort that out by the weekend. No promises though! ;)
After DaveC's glowing report I'm PMing you my address and details double quick before I get trampled to death in the rush! :)
Covenant
13-08-2009, 21:13
I hate to say I told you so but I told you so.......
Ah revenge is sweet.
Joking aside I am glad Dave has backed up my findings-the full benefit of the 7520 with the Wolfson mod can now be appreciated heh Dave?
I hate to say I told you so but I told you so.......
Ah revenge is sweet.
Joking aside I am glad Dave has backed up my findings-the full benefit of the 7520 with the Wolfson mod can now be appreciated heh Dave?
Hi Jerry,
All I can say is, "In spades !!!!"
Cheers,
So Mike, I suspect that your finances are as stretched as mine, given your venture into manufacturing, but can you wait for a couple of weeks or so for payment? :)
Indeed they are! :(
And of course you can! :)
Very glad to hear that you're pleased with it.
Cheers...
Oh, BTW... I can make these cables in pretty much any length, though probably not with that 'posh cloth' covering on very long runs. It only comes in lengths of 2M or so and I have a finite supply of it anyway... sooner or later it's gonna run out and I don't know if I can get any more either. It'll be nylon braid after that. Which some folk may prefer anyway. Maybe? :scratch:
Hi Mike,
Glad you posted that. I hope I'm not being a nuisance but I would like to have my lead a little longer, around 1.5m, as it's a bit of a stretch fit at the moment. Any chance I could swap?, I'll obviously pay all additional postage. The one I've got now is used for a couple of hours or so but on the other hand it's partially run in :lol: .
Just had a further thought: - I could post my current one direct to the next person on your list and save us all a bit of postage, if all concerned are agreeable ;) .
Let me know when convenient.
Cheers,
Yep... that works for me. :)
Yep... that works for me. :)
Hi Mike,
Thanks for your co-operation. If you or the designated recipient PM me with their address I'll forward my lead on to them (or you, if you prefer). Reluctant as I am to be parted from it, it seems only fair to you to do this sooner rather than later and wait patiently for my longer lead but don't keep me waiting too long please :) .
Look forward to hearing from you (I think !)
Cheers,
Hi Dave,
Next up is Gazjam, I'll forward his address via PM.
Cheers...
Err... No I won't coz I ain't got it! :doh:
Gary, could you PM your address to Dave please?
Cheers...
Beechwoods
14-08-2009, 11:13
Mike... cable received safe and sound, and lovely in person as it was in the pic! Despite using my olfactory senses I couldn't detect any trace of your promised 'magic touch' ;)
I'll be unfurling the little chap and giving him a going over the next day or so.
Thanks mate :)
Covenant
14-08-2009, 13:36
Hi Mike,
Your 'economy version' cable has arrived today-thanks. I will try it over the weekend and report back. If you want me to send it on to someone else just PM me.
Jerry
Hi Mike,
Your 'economy version' cable has arrived today-thanks. I will try it over the weekend and report back. If you want me to send it on to someone else just PM me.
Jerry
Huh!!! - Now I'm not in the chain you are willing to pass it on - charmin' - and I thought we were mates :lolsign: .
Cheers,
Mike,
Any chance you could do a 3m one for me?
Cheers.
Covenant
14-08-2009, 14:14
He he he.... put it this way Dave, if you drive a Veyron and someone asks you to try a Lambo you are not going to be too upset about giving it back are you?
Mike,
Any chance you could do a 3m one for me?
Cheers.
Yes. :)
Yes. :)
Ta Mike. There's no rush as I'm away from trailer towers at the moment.
Hi Mike,
Your 'economy version' cable has arrived today-thanks. I will try it over the weekend and report back.
Ah!... Jolly good.
Do let us all know what you think of it when you get the chance. :)
Cheers...
Thread Drift Alert (AGAIN!!)
Come on Moderators, put this thread in one of the two places it belongs: -
Abstract Chat!!
Grumpy of Sheffield.
PS My '99 S Type puts 'em all in the shade :smoking: .
jandl100
15-08-2009, 08:28
Fook me - I know about thread drift but this bluddy forum is the limit, it really is. :(
Mike - have I missed anything relevant to me about your cables in all this matey jabber?
:)
Ok, you boring lot - done!! :eyebrows:
;)
Marco.
Fook me - I know about thread drift but this bluddy forum is the limit, it really is. :(
Mike - have I missed anything relevant to me about your cables in all this matey jabber?
:)
Eh, what?.... Dunno, I seem to have missed it all. :scratch:
Covenant
15-08-2009, 09:06
Thread Drift Alert (AGAIN!!)
Come on Moderators, put this thread in one of the two places it belongs: -
Abstract Chat!!
Grumpy of Sheffield.
PS My '99 S Type puts 'em all in the shade :smoking: .
Keep yer knickers on Dave, its only a bit of a natter!
Keep yer knickers on Dave, its only a bit of a natter!
Hi Jerry,
Moderators pay to do what they are supposed to do, moderate, instead of contributing to and encouraging gross thread drift - if it wasn't a subject that they were 'into' they'd very quickly chide others, so there!!:ner::ner:
I was going to post that I don't wear knickers but I won't 'cos Marco'l only get over excited and it's not good for him - he'll need to take his pills again and go for a lie down :lol: .
Cheers,
jandl100
15-08-2009, 09:46
Keep yer knickers on Dave, its only a bit of a natter!
Instead of having thread drift about thread drift :doh: ... voice your thoughts here http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?p=58871#post58871 :)
Covenant
15-08-2009, 16:03
Ok after my telling off I better do a more serious review. If you haven't followed the thread Mike has sent me a more economically priced cable, this has Neutrik Profi connectors but is, I think, the same cable construction. For the sake of brevity I will call this one Bart (sorry Mike) :)
I left the equipment on last night to burn the cable in and both were connected to my Caimanised 7520 dac so I could quickly switch them at the rear of my SB3.
I had the rare privilege of my wife joining me to listen this afternoon. She is not into hifi but is involved with music all the time as a drama teacher. She is a singer and has perfect pitch.
We listened to Amused To Death by Roger Waters, this being my equivalent of Dave's Equinox, its an album I know and love. Also played lots of Sky solo piano (New York) because I think piano is one of the hardest instruments to reproduce properly.
The first time I switched to Bart she said "Its not as echoey". A couple of minutes later she said " Its not as sharp". I have to agree that decay of notes is not as pronounced and there is slight loss of extreme treble. We didn't notice any other differences.
I should emphasis that the differences are marginal and Bart is still a fine cable however I am sticking with Homar!.
So who is going to try it next?
Can I just say, in my defence - when I said "Bugatti for me" (as opposed the Lambo offered up by "Covenant" (Jerry)) I was meaning I wanted the full-blown £40 cable as opposed to the £25 Neutric Profi version, and was not intending to take us off topic, but apologies if "I started it", unintentionally.
Jerry's review now confirms that although both are from the same stable, the more expensive one edges it.
Hi Gents,
I've got myself a bit confused lately thanks to the arrival of a new (and rather manic) dog and may have lost the plot a little. Sorry. :mental:
Current 'state of play' is:- Waiting for WBT plugs which have been ordered (Again)!
People-wise, as far as I can tell, we have...
Gazjam - Should have demo cables at the moment?
Beechwoods - Has a cable but is being very quiet.
DaveC - Wants 2 x 1.5M cables.
jandl100 - Waiting for demo.
Alex UK - Waiting for demo.
trailer - Waiting for demo. Interested in 3M cable.
Fi-Wi - Possibly waiting for demo.
Could I ask for confirmation please? Have I missed anyone out? :scratch:
Cheers...
Covenant
18-08-2009, 08:49
Looks to me like the people who are being quiet are hoping that you will forget about them. :lol:
Hi Gents,
I've got myself a bit confused lately thanks to the arrival of a new (and rather manic) dog and may have lost the plot a little. Sorry. :mental:
Current 'state of play' is:- Waiting for WBT plugs which have been ordered (Again)!
People-wise, as far as I can tell, we have...
Gazjam - Should have demo cables at the moment?
Beechwoods - Has a cable but is being very quiet.
DaveC - Wants 2 x 1.5M cables. CONFIRMED.
jandl100 - Waiting for demo.
Alex UK - Waiting for demo.
trailer - Waiting for demo. Interested in 3M cable.
Fi-Wi - Possibly waiting for demo.
Could I ask for confirmation please? Have I missed anyone out? :scratch:
Cheers...
Cheers,
DaveC
Looks to me like the people who are being quiet are hoping that you will forget about them. :lol:
Yeah... 'someone' is at any rate. ;)
ooh I love a good conspiracy theory me......
shoot first ask questions later! ;)
Got the cable yesterday, thanks for that Dave and thanks Mike.
Been busy in the "real world" (yeah, it CAN happen :scratch:) so not had the time.
Will fire it up today and let you chaps know how it goes.
Who's next after me Mike, and how long do I get to keep it?
I'm asking that as Jerry (Covenant) is posting out your other cable, and it would be good to do a comparison between them BOTH against by bag of the usual suspecs (Gotham, Belden, NVA, and a couple of cheapies which if I was to be honest, shocked the SH*t out of me how good they were, like the Hitachi LC-OFC interconnects I'm using)
Great cable by the way, feels like a "quality" product, especially with the locking connectors, good job Mike!
Hi Gary,
Please DO wait until you have both cables, I'd like them to stay together as a sort of demo pair if possible.
You can keep them until you've made up your mind or the next person on the list starts growling at you!
Next up is Jerry (jandl100).
Cheers...
3m "deluxe" for me please.
Any chance of a black sheath if you can do it on the 3m length?
oh'kay dokie Mike.
Oh, first impression of something I noticed, might peturb you being an engineer-type rather than an audiophool :)
Your cable sounds different depending on what direction you fit it!
First take on it, it sounds very "planted", solid imaging and doesn't get in the way of the flow of the music.
Proper comparison come delivery of the other cable, which will (I supose) give your Homar cable any burn in (*) if its required.
(*) Another audiophool/foo factor requirement for tenth level cable believers!
3m "deluxe" for me please.
Any chance of a black sheath if you can do it on the 3m length?
It'll have to be black for 3M. :)
Oh, first impression of something I noticed, might peturb you being an engineer-type rather than an audiophool :)
Your cable sounds different depending on what direction you fit it!
:doh:... La La La... not listening!
Hi Gents,
I've got myself a bit confused lately thanks to the arrival of a new (and rather manic) dog and may have lost the plot a little. Sorry. :mental:
Current 'state of play' is:- Waiting for WBT plugs which have been ordered (Again)!
People-wise, as far as I can tell, we have...
Gazjam - Should have demo cables at the moment?
Beechwoods - Has a cable but is being very quiet.
DaveC - Wants 2 x 1.5M cables. CONFIRMED
jandl100 - Waiting for demo.
Alex UK - Waiting for demo.
trailer - Waiting for demo. Interested in 3M cable.
Fi-Wi - Waiting for demo. CONFIRMED
Could I ask for confirmation please? Have I missed anyone out? :scratch:
Cheers...
My confirmation.
Me too! I think I PM'd you my details but shout if you need them - cheers Mike, can't wait to give it a try!
Hi Alex,
Yes, I have your PM with your address.
Cheers...
Gents,
I must apologise for the delay. My usual supplier of WBT plugs was out of stock of my preferred plugs so I ordered them from elsewhere. Still nothing. :(
I won't be shopping there again... please bear with me, I'm trying to sort something.
Cheers...
jandl100
22-08-2009, 07:27
jandl100 - Waiting for demo.
Was it a Dianna Ross song from the 70s? ..... ah, yes .....
Im waiting
Ooh, still waiting
Im just a fool
Ooh, Im a fool
To keep waiting
:)
give us a shout then Jerry! :)
results posted Mon/Tue.
Surprising to me they were, hmmnnnn?
Hi Gaz,
You may have heard this somewhere before but have you tried reversing it? - I may just have got lucky in my choice of which end goes where ;) .
Cheers,
Dave :cool:
yup tried it both ways.
(Perhaps I should rephrase that......)
jandl100
23-08-2009, 10:45
Hi Gaz - you need my addy? I'll PM you. :)
.... must admit I am currently with yours (and Marco's) reccy of Belden 1694a .... Although which way round seems to make little if any diff to me :confused:
Well, it was a quiet Sunday in Motherwellshire when someone got the finger out and sat down to properly compare some digital interconnects. Some new, some old, some lying around in a carrier bag somewhere.
*Note* This is of course in MY system, and there are those that say cables are system dependant, but it might be useful to see a comparison.
I split the cables up into two groups; proper digital coax and normal interconnects, the top two of each going head to head with each other until the best one was reached.
The test took the form of a "sudden death" with the best of two cables "going into the next round" so to speak. The idea was to be left with the best sounding cable.
RESULTS
Joint 1st:
Mikes first cable with the WBT locking connectors
Joint 1st:
NVA Super Sound Pipe
Second:
Mikes second cable with the Neutrik connector
Third
THIS! http://www.tvcables.co.uk/cgi-bin/tvcables/PH404.html
Fourth:
Belden 1649a
FIFTH:
Gotham SPDIF cable
THE REST:
All interconnects triedwere not as good as the digi coax cables.
*Linn Interconnect *Gotham *Van Damme Mic cable*
The NVA bettered Mikes cable in some areas, namely the imaging being more "lifesize" and having a better impression of people playing together - timing, syncopation that kind of stuff.
Bass was slightly deeper too, helping to drive the rythym more, especially in rock music.
Through Mikes cable though, music sounded more planted, more solid. It was a close run between the NVA and Mikes cable and comes down to preference with the type of music being played. Mikes seems to let more clarity through and with ochestral music theres a bigger sense of the venue being played, more clarity. With rock though I prefer the NVA, it just gets down to it in a way Mikes doesn't?
Mikes second cable is great too. I could happily live with it, as it just gets out the way and lets the music through.
I was surprised the cheapie I had lying around in a bag was so good actually - I prefered it to he Belden which really surprised me.
So Mikes cables are very good, and whilst not a night and day difference over my current NVA, they do better them in some important areas.
I'd happily recommend Mikes cables to anyone (well, anyone without an NVA cable that is!!) :)
Thanks for the opportunity to try them out Mike!
Jerry?
Post them tommorow, got your PM with your address, ta.
Thanks for that, Gary... very informative. ;)
Would now be a good time to announce my 'signature' (*) cable? :lolsign:
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
... (*) Well, everyone else calls em that! ;)
Brill Gaz,
Great appraisal and particularly gratifying to me 'cos I (and the Cove) rated Mike's pricier cable very highly too. So if a newbie cloth ears like me (with no interest in the pursuit of audio excellence, so I am (un)reliably informed), and a couple of pairs of highly educated and acute ears, (not to mention Mike's but he might not be impartial ;) ), can discern their superiority there's a chance that they may actually be not so bad :lol: .
You appear to have changed your earlier opinion regarding the rating of Mike's two cables - what brought that about may I ask?
BTW.
Your appraisals are easier to follow (get) than some of your humour, but I've read that about mine too somewhere :lolsign: .
Cheers,
BTW 2
When are you going to get rid of the wanky wire - about time now !!
Well... at the risk of sounding biased!
May I point out that Richards cables are very, very good, but a 1.5M Super Sound Pipe comes in at around £150 I believe!
Or would that be rude? ;)
Well... at the risk of sounding biased!
May I point out that Richards cables are very, very good, but a 1.5M Super Sound Pipe comes in at around £150 I believe!
Or would that be rude? ;)
Hi son, sorry, hi Mike ;),
Glad you mentioned that - I meant to ask Gaz what the price difference was. The decision between the two is a no-brainer to the average person.
Congratulations, now stop posting and preening and get on with mine :lol:.
Cheers,
now stop posting and preening and get on with mine
Can't, dad! :confused:
The sodding WBT's still haven't ****ing arrived! :steam:
Incidentally... the fancy 'top-o-the range' job, with fancy 'WBT NextGen' plugs will still be less than half the price of the 'NVA Super Sound Pipe'! :)
If it's any good, of course.... it's still 'on the bench' ATM.
Are these the analogue versions that are being trialled at present?
Sorry if I missed something!
Nope!
See thread title. ;)
Sorry it's been a long day!
This was the bit that got me confused:
THE REST:
All interconnects tried were not as good as the digi coax cables.
*Linn Interconnect *Gotham *Van Damme Mic cable*
Can't, dad! :confused:
The sodding WBT's still haven't ****ing arrived! :steam:
Incidentally... the fancy 'top-o-the range' job, with fancy 'WBT NextGen' plugs will still be less than half the price of the 'NVA Super Sound Pipe'! :)
If it's any good, of course.... it's still 'on the bench' ATM.
Hi Mike,
What's this then?
Am I to understand that, after getting rid of all your crap bits and pieces making cheapy cables and flogging 'em on forum, and then getting rid of all your 'nearly crap but not quite' bits and pieces making your 'premium' cables you are now buying some decent bits and pieces to launch your 'Signature' cable? :lol: :lol: :scratch:
What a way to treat your friends, (and family ;) ).
Cheers,
Bugger off ya old eejit! :lolsign:
Just trying to 'improve the beed'!... The 'new one' would be considerably more expensive. About £65 -£70! :ner:
Sorry it's been a long day!
This was the bit that got me confused:
THE REST:
All interconnects tried were not as good as the digi coax cables.
*Linn Interconnect *Gotham *Van Damme Mic cable*
Sorry 'bout that.
Those were the analogue interconnects I threw into the mix as a comparison with Mike's cables and the other Digital coax I used in the test.
I concluded that normal interconnects (at least the batch I tried) weren;t as good as any of the digital cables.
:)
Brill Gaz,
Great appraisal and particularly gratifying to me 'cos I (and the Cove) rated Mike's pricier cable very highly too. So if a newbie cloth ears like me (with no interest in the pursuit of audio excellence, so I am (un)reliably informed), and a couple of pairs of highly educated and acute ears, (not to mention Mike's but he might not be impartial ;) ), can discern their superiority there's a chance that they may actually be not so bad :lol: .
You appear to have changed your earlier opinion regarding the rating of Mike's two cables - what brought that about may I ask?
BTW.
Your appraisals are easier to follow (get) than some of your humour, but I've read that about mine too somewhere :lolsign: .
Cheers,
BTW 2
When are you going to get rid of the wanky wire - about time now !!
Hey Dave,
Yeah initially Mikes "cheaper" cable seemed to do a better job of making the speakers "disappear" when listening. There was always not much in it between the two, but I always seemed to go back to the cheaper ones for some reason. As I listened to a bigger variety of music though the other cables qualities came through more and I ended up preferring it.
It was a case of more types of music sounding better through one cable than the other.
Wanky wire....hmnn....dunno Dave.
All I've got left Wanky-wise is my inch thick power cord feeding my Maplins PSU for the Caiman.
Gawd, that last sentence is wrong on SOO many levels :)
Bugger off ya old eejit! :lolsign:
Just trying to 'improve the beed'!... The 'new one' would be considerably more expensive. About £65 -£70! :ner:
and of course discounts for Beta testers! ;):)
and of course discounts for Beta testers! ;):)
I can 'discount' the lot of ya if ya like! :ner:
Well... at the risk of sounding biased!
May I point out that Richards cables are very, very good, but a 1.5M Super Sound Pipe comes in at around £150 I believe!
Or would that be rude? ;)
This has to be taken into consideration of course, Mikes cable actually bettered Richards SSP in some important areas, and as I said, for me the preferred cable between the two can come down to choice of music.
Whats interesting is that Mikes cable bettered all "traditional" style cable construction which of course, the NVA isn't.
Sound quality wise though, the two cables are comparable.
Cheers, Gary.
I'm still at a loss to explain this 'directional' lark! :scratch:
I've a theory or two, but non of them make much sense to my 'sensibilities'! :scratch::scratch::scratch:
Anyway, it is what it is, and the 'proof' is in the listening! :)
Bugger off ya old eejit! :lolsign:
What a way to talk to 'family' - my offer to adopt you is hereby withdrawn :ner: :ner: :ner:
Just trying to 'improve the beed'!... The 'new one' would be considerably more expensive. About £65 -£70! :ner:
And if it is going to be £65/£40 times better, or better, (hope you're following all this ;) ) some people might be interested at the Beta tester's discount rate (or I might withdraw my favourable appraisal and claim that an ex-member of my family twisted my arm to make it !!) :lolsign: :lolsign:
Cheers,
Its getting a bit "what hifi" in 'ere......
Bought reviews...nah.
Not in this place.
Dave?
behave. Your old enough to know better tsk tsk. ;)
Its getting a bit "what hifi" in 'ere......
:lolsign:
And I might not be 'ere' much longer.... ;)
jandl100
26-08-2009, 15:39
The MH Digi cables have arrived - thanks Gaz and Mike.
Of course, the day before they get here I take delivery on an integrated CDP and so don't actually need a digi cable any more .... :doh: :mental:
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/DSCF4961.jpg
But I've still got me old kit, so I'll do some listening on that over the next day or two.
Who gets the cables next? PM me your address. :)
... is now available! :)
Same 'DNA'... Better plugs (http://www.wbtusa.com/pdf/0110.pdf)!... Additional screening!... Available with any colour braid you fancy (almost), or that 'Posh Cloth' stuff.
Unfortunately though, more expensive. The plugs cost more and there's more work involved. :(
When I find the bloody camera and it stops evading me I'll post a photo!
Well this is going to cause trouble, a whole spat (thread) kicked off last time when the current cables were referred to as "Lambo(rghini)" and "Bugatti" and I said "Bugatti everytime" - so what the heck do we call the new ones? "Learjet" I guess!? :D I suppose the sixty-four-thousand dollar question is do the new ones cost sixty-four-thousand dollars, or if not, how much? (From memory - Lambo £25, Bugatti £40?) Learjet... £??
Covenant
26-08-2009, 21:49
Alex, you are well out of touch with car prices! The Veyron is £1 million. :)
Oh in that case I'll take 2, I thought they were expensive! ;)
I suppose the sixty-four-thousand dollar question is do the new ones cost sixty-four-thousand dollars, or if not, how much?
£60... Still not quite in 'boutique' territory. ;)
It'll be on it's way to Jerry very soon. He started all this after all! :lol:
And here it is. In blue!
http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/7946/p1013886.jpg
By Shian7 (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/Shian7) at 2009-08-26
Mike,
I'm up for going for the super fandango 3m version in noir, (I'm on the list for a non super fandango).
I'm not "d0Wn w1v da k1dz" enough for fluorescent blue I'm afraid.
Cheers again
The flash makes it look 'brighter' than it really is... the copper outer screen is reflecting through the braid. It looks rather more 'grown up' in real life. ;)
Although, I'm told the braid is 'UV reactive', whatever the hell that means! :scratch:
Gents,
The WBT's I ordered have finally landed!... seems sooo long ago now.
Where were we?
DaveC - Wants two 1.54m. But may go for the 'posh' new ones?
Trailer - Wants a 3m 'posh' one.
Err... can someone remind me about the rest please? :scratch:
Ah!... just remembered Beechy has a cable too!
What's the score, matey?... sale, or return?
Wow, do these 3 year old plugs (considering the revision date the pdf tells) and the extra time involved screwing them on a cable cost £20 extra?
I am not trying to be funny/sarcastic but since I am non-technical I am surpised by the extra cost compared to you last offer.
The cheapest price I've found for the plugs is £43.50 per pair including postage. Then there's the coax, the braid, glue lined heatshrink, copper foil, WBT solder, postage + packaging. :confused:
Maybe I should add £50 per hour for my time too! :lol:
The other two versions are always an option! ;)
I'm down for a "Bugatti" I think, though not sure now if I should go the whole hog with the new super duper ones... decisions, decisions!
Or I could use THESE (http://www.wbtusa.com/pages/0110Ags.html) plugs at £66 per pair... :smoking:
Maybe I should add £50 per hour for my time too! :lol:
Bloody cheapskate !!! My local main dealer wants to charge £90 per hour just for anyone who can hold a hammer in one hand and a Stilson wrench in the other to crawl all over my car. (OK it is expected that they can hold both at the same time :lol: ).
Cheers,
Beechwoods
28-08-2009, 12:02
Well I've finally been able to give Mike's cable a proper listen, and write a few words of review :)
But first, a few pictures. These really are well made and presented cables. The heat-shrunk interface between the cable, sheath and plug is particularly nicely done and the cables are nicely flexible, with a good coiled memory, meaning they put away neatly when not in use.
http://i560.photobucket.com/albums/ss49/aos_images/beechwoods/IMG_2431_s.jpg
http://i560.photobucket.com/albums/ss49/aos_images/beechwoods/IMG_2432_s.jpg
http://i560.photobucket.com/albums/ss49/aos_images/beechwoods/IMG_2433_s.jpg
http://i560.photobucket.com/albums/ss49/aos_images/beechwoods/IMG_2435_s.jpg
The WBT plugs Mike's using are extremely nice. Unlike the plugs on my other digital coax, they aren't so tight as to want to damage my gear when they're put on. In fact they go onto the digi-out phono extremely easily, and the outer can be tightened onto the socket once in place, to give a good firm connection without liability of damage.
Mike's soldering is first class ;) in fact they look machine soldered. What's your trick :eyebrows: No dry joints here :lol:
In the listening stakes, I used these to make some digital copies from my Sony SACD player (playing back a standard CD) into my Tascam HD-P2 digital recorder. I reviewed the WAV recordings from the HD-P2 on my Mac via Sennheiser headphones. I couldn't perceive any clear differences between Mike's cable and a Cambridge Audio cable I'd also got, but the difference in build-quality was clear, and I would have no hesitation in recommending these to anyone else who might be interested. Obviously, the digital cable was a dramatic step-up from an analogue connection, in terms of lower noise and cleaner image, but that's as much likely down to poor D/A's in the Sony than anything else.
In value for money terms Mike could sell these for twice what he is (which would probably better reflect the effort that's gone into making them) and they'd still be a good bargain. Get 'em before he gets wise to it :)
And no, mine aren't for sale. Mike you'll have to send me details of your Paypal account :smoking:
Mike, is the new one offered as a sale or return "loaner" like the other ones?
Your £40 one was VERY VERY close to my NVA (at 4 times the price)and if the £60 one is better (and the pics look great mate) I would buy one.
Need to have a play though first to justify spending £60 on a cable (considering myself relatively foo free nowadays...)
Thanks
Gary.
Mike, is the new one offered as a sale or return "loaner" like the other ones?
Kind of. There's a 'demo' cable that's gone off to Jerry, and Dave wants a go after him, feel free to have a go yourself.
I'm only going to make these for definite orders though, they're a bit of a fart about to make.
Mike's soldering is first class ;) in fact they look machine soldered. What's your trick :eyebrows: No dry joints here :lol:
It's a skill rather than a talent...
Talent is something you're born with, a skill is something you learn. Do it a few thousand times and you'll eventually get the hang of it! ;)
Kind of. There's a 'demo' cable that's gone off to Jerry, and Dave wants a go after him, feel free to have a go yourself.
I'm only going to make these for definite orders though, they're a bit of a fart about to make.
Good stuff Cheers Mike.
I take it the Demo cable just like the one you would buy?
Sound wise I mean?
Thanks for the heads up, I'll PM Dave and give a shout out
Gary.
Good stuff Cheers Mike.
I take it the Demo cable just like the one you would buy?
Sound wise I mean?
Thanks for the heads up, I'll PM Dave and give a shout out
Gary.
Only difference would be choice of braid or cloth stuff... :smoking:
Covenant
30-08-2009, 14:59
I received Mike's latest digital cable yesterday and as usual left it on overnight before settling down to an afternoon of listening and comparing to the previous model.
In a nutshell I couldn't distinguish any difference;maybe a higher resolution system would reveal changes that my cheapo outfit couldn't.
So a very nice looking cable is now available. Do I return it to you Mike or pass it on?
I'm kind of glad you said that.... They're a PITA to make! :)
Jerry - presume you were you using this from the squeezebox? Would be interesting to see (hear) if it makes a difference between a CD player and DAC (not what I bought my Caiman for, but what it is now used for, 90% of the time as it is so good...)
Covenant
30-08-2009, 17:44
I tried both, not that I have an expensive CD player-just an old Sony stable platter jobby.
OK, thanks Jerry. As my system is very modest, I think I'll stick to the middle of the range ones please Mike, as before.
Hi Alex,
Are you waiting for a 'demo', or are you a 'definite?... I can't remember anymore! My heads been in a spin from all the PM's flying about today. I've been inundated over on 'the wam' with enquiries about the ML's I'm selling.
You can't remember? I can't remember! I'm happy to take one "Bugatti" on-spec, sure I can "flower it up" enough to make a profit on ebay "if not completely satisfied" ! ;)
Gents,
Could I just check the whereabouts of my 'demo' cables please? :)
Who's got what?
I believe the 'posh' one is with Jerry (Covenant) and the other two are with the other Jerry (jandl100)... or have they moved on?
Cheers...
Covenant
31-08-2009, 15:30
The posh one is still with me-just tell me where you want it sending and I will get it in the post.
Back to me I guess... there seems little point in circulating it if there's no worthwhile improvement, it's not worth the extra expense and hassle involved building them ;)
Cheers...
Covenant
31-08-2009, 15:47
But thats just my opinion-wouldn't it be better to let someone else try it?
I guess so, but they'd need the others so compare it with.
Not sure where they are ATM! :scratch:
But thats just my opinion-wouldn't it be better to let someone else try it?
Think Dave and Myself would like a chance to try it Jerry?
Dave can have first dibs if he want to.
Mike, I found your last one pretty close to my NVA and better in some aspects, be good to compare the better one against it?
Gaz.
Hi Gaz,
Dave's cables are all ready to go. I guess you can try it next unless Dave has any objections?
Cheers...
TBH, I don't think you'll find any difference between the 'posh' one and the 'standard' one...
I'm still trying to get my head around why folk can hear differences in digital cables at all! :scratch:
It's all witchcraft & sorcery, I tell ya! :sofa:
Beechwoods
31-08-2009, 17:10
I'm still trying to get my head around why folk can hear differences in digital cables at all! :scratch:
I can't, but I'm not sure if that's good or bad!
TBH, I don't think you'll find any difference between the 'posh' one and the 'standard' one...
I'm still trying to get my head around why folk can hear differences in digital cables at all! :scratch:
It's all witchcraft & sorcery, I tell ya! :sofa:
Hey - your supposed to be telling us all about how your unique quantum-flux capacitance diffusion charactaristics of the dialectric (or summit) strips the barrier between the listener and the Artist, how it sounds like a veil has been lifted and its now like sitting in the front row of the Albert Hall now.
Oh, throw in that even your Wife hears the difference and that she's now joining you on the next cable bake-off. :)
Actually mate, I cant explain it either, but to these ears they sound different - not night and day different (except if comparing with an old wet shoelace) but its there.
To me its not "hifi" differences, with all the comments on bass slam, timbre and all that stuff, its more about wanting to listen to more music.
Your last cable and the NVA did that more than any other in my system to my ears.
Hang on, I'll get me flipchart (with diagrams) and prove it... :)
:lolsign:
Very good!
Like I said before, mine are done 'on the bench', data goes in and data comes out and I measure... I've never listened to one as I don't own a seperate DAC! :lol:
Maybe I should git one 'o them thar Caimans and hear for miself, eh! :eyebrows:
aye mibbay :)
Another Guys just compared it to the Dac in the Logitech Transporter.
As good as the TP, slightly better in some instances.
The Transporter costs £1000ish
Go figure...
Right folks...
Latest batch of I/C's is done and will be posted off tomorrow, except Jim's (trailer), who want his to arrive at the weekend.
Next lot will be in about a week when the next batch of WBT's arrives. OK, I'll admit it, I'm having a bit of a respite after going 'bog eyed' spending most of today doing hardly anything else. So there! :ner:
I really HAVE ran out of WBT's again though...
Many thanks to those of you who've sent prompt payment, much appreciated. :)
Cheers guys. :cheers:
jandl100
31-08-2009, 23:01
Gents,
Could I just check the whereabouts of my 'demo' cables please? :)
Who's got what?
I believe the 'posh' one is with Jerry (Covenant) and the other two are with the other Jerry (jandl100)... or have they moved on?
Cheers...
Correctimundo. No they haven't moved on. Where should they move on to? Let me know and I'll pop 'em in the post. :)
Too many Jerrys around here - perhaps you should just call me 'sir'. :eyebrows:
Some heavy listening to cables done this evening ....
Verdicts at Chateau Jerry (aka Castle Sir) ...
Belden 1694a - a bit thin and 2D (sorry Marco - I can't help it if I'm deaf ;))
MikeyH's Wunderlinx (both sound pretty much the same to me) - nicely defined soundstage, palpable images but a bit etched at the top for me - violins seemed to have a slight added h-freq emphasis that I could do without.
Missing Link Dark Art digi - this'll do me. Same sort of palpability as the MH Wunderlinx, not quite as good soundstage, a bit darker but without the added high end edge.
Most interesting. :)
Where should they move on to? Let me know and I'll pop 'em in the post. :)
Back to me I guess.
I don't think there's anyone else waiting. If there is speak up! :)
Cheers...
MikeyH's Wunderlinx (both sound pretty much the same to me) - nicely defined soundstage, palpable images but a bit etched at the top for me - violins seemed to have a slight added h-freq emphasis that I could do without.
Missing Link Dark Art digi - this'll do me. Same sort of palpability as the MH Wunderlinx, not quite as good soundstage, a bit darker but without the added high end edge.
Just bear in mind though, the difference in cost - The Missing Link Dark Art in 1.5m lenth will set you back £115 (+ postage maybe?) so at £25/£40 delivered Mike's cables are giving a very respectable performance indeed by the sounds of your comparison!
And the £40 one a gnats sac hair away from an NVA digital cable which costs a lot more.
Good cables, fantastic for the price.
Mike will throw in a free banana with the first 100 sold (allegedly)
Beechwoods
01-09-2009, 14:22
Everyone, let's have a big hand for Mike's greengrocer ;)
Everyone, let's have a big hand for Mike's greengrocer ;)
HAND - will that do? ;) .
Cheers,
no Beadle jokes Chaps.
:D
Beechwoods
01-09-2009, 17:37
Clap
jandl100
01-09-2009, 19:12
Verdicts at Chateau Jerry (aka Castle Sir) ...
Belden 1694a - a bit thin and 2D
MikeyH's Wunderlinx (both sound pretty much the same to me) - nicely defined soundstage, palpable images but a bit etched at the top for me - violins seemed to have a slight added h-freq emphasis that I could do without.
Missing Link Dark Art digi - this'll do me. Same sort of palpability as the MH Wunderlinx, not quite as good soundstage, a bit darker but without the added high end edge.
Just bear in mind though, the difference in cost - The Missing Link Dark Art in 1.5m lenth will set you back £115 (+ postage maybe?) so at £25/£40 delivered Mike's cables are giving a very respectable performance indeed by the sounds of your comparison!
Yup, yup - true enough. But iirc, the ML Dark Art I bought used and it cost me £40. :smoking: And anyway, depending on system synergy and musical taste I can imagine Mikey's being preferable to the Dark Art.
So, yes, an excellent sounding cable from Mikey. And even better when you consider the price. But if he was running a cable biz he'd probably have to charge £100+ to make it profitable.
Yup, yup - true enough. But iirc, the ML Dark Art I bought used and it cost me £40. :smoking:
Indeed Jerry, I didn't for one minute think you wouldn't have got a bargain! (I've nosed at your ebay account - your signature should read "un-repentant box and cable swapper" ;)
I wasn't in any way "having a go" - hope it didn't come across like that. Did you try any non-classical, by the way - I would imagine the results might be different, with say, rock?
So, yes, an excellent sounding cable from Mikey. And even better when you consider the price. But if he was running a cable biz he'd probably have to charge £100+ to make it profitable.
Yup, and I don't mind you telling him that now - as I've already paid my 40 quid he can put his prices up if he likes! :lol:
if he was running a cable biz...
No chance!
I'd go blind doing bugger all except soldering stuff all day. If I didn't hang myself with a cable due to terminal boredom first, that is! :doh:
jandl100
01-09-2009, 19:39
Indeed Jerry, I didn't for one minute think you wouldn't have got a bargain! (I've nosed at your ebay account - your signature should read "un-repentant box and cable swapper" ;)
Eek! - I'm being spied on. :wave:
I wasn't in any way "having a go" - hope it didn't come across like that.
No problem. :)
Did you try any non-classical, by the way - I would imagine the results might be different, with say, rock?
No, I don't play rock at home - only in the car. Does this mean I get banned from AoS? :(
I'm only really interested in classical and some non-classical acoustic recordings (mainly Loreena McKennitt!) in the main system. :violin:
Yes, cool, and not as far as I'm concerned - in that order! ;)
jandl100
02-09-2009, 09:20
Quote:
Originally Posted by jandl100
Where should they move on to? Let me know and I'll pop 'em in the post.
Back to me I guess.
Cheers...
Hokay - PM me your address Mike. :)
electric beach
02-09-2009, 10:34
Actually Mike, I'm in the market for a replacement digital cable at the moment, mind if I try first if Jerry hasn't sent them back yet?
Actually Mike, I'm in the market for a replacement digital cable at the moment, mind if I try first if Jerry hasn't sent them back yet?
Sure... just drop him a PM.
Cheers,
Hi Mike,
Not paniicking yet but the postie has been and no cables - I'll let you know what happens tomorrow.
Cheers,
electric beach
02-09-2009, 13:18
Sure... just drop him a PM.
Cheers,
Done. Thanks Mike, if I find anything like the experiences of most others then I'm sure you've sold another MH WunderlinX (sorry, we're naming it now!)
I'll be comparing / replacing a cable from Trichord Research, a 75ohm coaxial design but without 75ohm connectors. I don't dispute the (il)logic that digital cables shouldn't make a difference, but I can only say that I've not only heard the changes, the 'signature' of each cable stayed consistent with a change of DAC and/or transport.
Just to throw a pebble in the pond...
(and I'm not experienced or skilled to say anything other than a user's point of view)
I've been making great strides forward lately by installing some VertexAQ mains conditioners (Jaya filter and Taga distribution block) and also in employing their phylosophy with equipment support, albeit on a DIY basis. With regard to their thinking on vibration control, or more specifically the vibrations transferred between components via their interconnecting cables, maybe the difference heard between two cables which in theory are equally cable of 'moving the bits', could be for considerations other than those purely concerned with the data transfer? :confused:
Tony Moore
03-09-2009, 07:32
I don't dispute the (il)logic that digital cables shouldn't make a difference, but I can only say that I've not only heard the changes, the 'signature' of each cable stayed consistent with a change of DAC and/or transport.
In the case of the consumer s/pdif it's not that much of a surprise that different cables, connectors and terminations would make a difference as the whole design of the link is poor to start off with. The best you can do is use a interconnect with as near to 75ohm characteristic impedance as you can get, when considered as a whole, including the connectors, as Mike is supplying. This helps to reduce reflections occurring at the joins where the different impedances meet. Reducing reflections (and transferring the maximum signal strength) means that the receiver is more likely to get cleaner edges to trigger on and the timing of the recovered clock signal is likely to be more stable - ie less jitter.
There's loads more to it than that I'm sure, but that's just my own observations from all my playing around with DACs and Squeezeboxes. :scratch:
A DAC with some form of reclocking built in would be less susceptible to timing related imperfections in the cable but even so it would be good practice to use a cable as close to the 75ohm characteristic imp. as possible.
Cheers,
Tony
Another "audiophile" consideration (but one POSSIBLY backed up by measurement) is that the length of the cable should be 1.5m to minimise reflections on the transmission line - and therefore Jitter.
(just regurgitating what I've read elsewhere, Im not technical bod)
That said - and surely a more common sense approach - if you measure the bits going INTO the cable, and the same bits come out the other end......surely there's no loss, and the cable is therefore "perfect"??
Contentious issue, whats your take on it Tony?
Gaz.
Tony Moore
03-09-2009, 09:39
if you measure the bits going INTO the cable, and the same bits come out the other end......surely there's no loss, and the cable is therefore "perfect"??
Hi Gaz,
The thing is, you can't really measure "bits" going into and out of the cable as such. The signal sent down the cable is an overlapping sum of sine waves (analogue!:)) of a great many different frequencies, extending well up into radio frequency. The cable will transmit the various frequencies differently due to it's resistance, inductance and capacitance. To make a nice sharp square-wave edge (to benefit the receiver's ability to get a clean "bit" transition and good timing location you need to pass some very high frequency sine waves! There will always be losses in the cable and especially at the higher frequencies which result in the waveform at the output end of the cable having the square-wave's corners rounded off (or overshooting - ringing).
Even so, yes, you _should_ get the same bits out of the receiver chip that you feed into the encoder chip assuming the receiver is getting a reasonable signal. The timing though is another matter and just as important as the actual bit value. It's no use having a sample correct in level if it's displaced in time randomly from where it should be. (Because the clock is encoded into the signal along with the data)
All this is going back 28 years for me and my memory these days is not as good as it was! :scratch: And transmission line theory blew my brains even back then. :doh:
There are people on here with a far better understanding of it then me!
Cheers,
Tony
Very interesting Tony,
deals head on with questions of why Digital perhaps "sound" different.
So SPDIF digital cables dont transmit data in the digital realm (i.e 1's and 0's) but actually analogue?
A VERY fundamental fact important to digital cables!
I genuinely didn't know that, puts to rest the argument of "How can it be different, its 1's and 0s!!!!"to rest!
I knew there was more to it than just that, just didn't know what.
Thanks, very informative!
Well, mine has arrived this morning, thanks Mike - looks and feels lovely - now installed, so let's see what it sounds like... Have others found it needs a burn in, so I don't go deducing too much to start with?
Tony Moore
03-09-2009, 11:38
So SPDIF digital cables dont transmit data in the digital realm (i.e 1's and 0's) but actually analogue?
All digital signals are in fact analogue. ;) The 0's and 1's just being represented by different voltage levels. General convention is that a 0 is a voltage below a certain level and a 1 is a voltage above another level. The actual voltages vary depending upon the logic circuits used. Common ones (CMOS) that operate on 5 volts supply tend to use above 3.7v for the 1 and less than 1.3v for the 0. The bit in bewteen is like a buffer zone. So the device will switch to 1 when the voltage goes above 3.7 and then only switch back to a 0 state when the voltage goes below 1.3v. Even so, the rate that the voltage changes is important as it will slightly alter the point in time where the gate switches, as the voltage passes through the threshold points. Capacitance is one culprit for slowing the rate of change of signals.
So although we're talking 1's and 0's there are a lot of other considerations surrounding the actual implementation of the so called digital bits in the analogue world.
Cheers,
Tony
Best explaination I've heard. :)
Thanks for letting me off having to plough through digital signal transmission theory Tony. :)
Adrian B
03-09-2009, 14:21
Hate to interrupt the flow of great minds with a prosaic Q, but anyone have any idea where Mike's demo cables have got to? Mike's suggested I have a go with them if possible. Thanks
Adrian
Hi Tony,
Great stuff - ever thought of writing the definitive 'Idiot's Guide to Audio'? I personally found it very enlightening and it's opened up a small chink of light into what was previously a very dark area into which I would not venture.
Thanks - I'm a wee bit wiser now - hope I remeber it! :lol:
Cheers,
electric beach
03-09-2009, 16:46
Hate to interrupt the flow of great minds with a prosaic Q, but anyone have any idea where Mike's demo cables have got to? Mike's suggested I have a go with them if possible. Thanks
Adrian
They are winging their way to me shortly, but don't be too sure that one won't be staying! :dance:
I'll let you know next week Adrian.
Hi Mike,
Not paniicking yet but the postie has been and no cables - I'll let you know what happens tomorrow.
Cheers,
Did you have mail today?
Still waiting here but then, the pigeon does have to cross the pond to get to my place. Maybe tomorrow.
Did you have mail today?
Still waiting here but then, the pigeon does have to cross the pond to get to my place. Maybe tomorrow.
Hi Steven,
Yours went airmail on the same day as the others, so it shouldn't take too long. :)
Mikey, did you get the cables I sent back? :)
Marco.
Did you have mail today?
Still waiting here but then, the pigeon does have to cross the pond to get to my place. Maybe tomorrow.
Hi Steven,
Yes, mine arrived today and am listening to it now - not too bad either but don't let Mike know that I'm so enthusiastic or he might start jacking the price up :lolsign: ;) :lolsign: .
Hi Mike,
As per my earlier PM my cables are now with me , with one installed between CDP and Wolfsoned 7520 ( the other is shortly to go to Stratmangler for short term trial). I could drag my post out a bit by telling you all about my day but I'm not like that so I'll put your mind at ease straight away.
Your reputation as a manufacturer of digital co-ax cables has no equal IMHO.
Although I was expecting to notice the difference from what I remembered of the 1m cable I originally had I am in fact gobsmacked by what I am listening to now (Equinoxe of course, 'cos I am so familiar with it). Seriously, it is in grave danger of relegating my newly acquired Techie onto the back burner for a while and that does surprise me!! I listened to a few selected bits of Equinoxe with the Belden Video Brilliance co-ax i/c (no bad cable in it's own right) just to fix the sound in my ears (refresh my memory) and then repaced it with your's - night and day just is not adequate to describe the difference - I could become a serious audiophile if I thought that other improvements of a similar magnitude were available but it just cannot be possible. I said before about the 1m cable that it was the best sound-per-pound investment I had ever made and that remains the case, only more so.
Everything is so much clearer and brighter (sharper is perhaps a better word), it's like someone has removed a heavy drape from between me and the speakers, one that I wasn't even aware of until now. I also seem to find it louder without touching the volume control, which again I don't remember before. It may not be a popular view in some quarters but I am wondering if the 1.54m length is responsible for the improvement because it is noticeably better than I remember the 1m cable to be. There again, maybe you weren't joking when you said you'd make mine extra special - whatever the reason, that's exactly what they are - absolutely bloody brilliant - thank you very very much.
Cheers.
Covenant
03-09-2009, 20:19
All digital signals are in fact analogue. ;) The 0's and 1's just being represented by different voltage levels. General convention is that a 0 is a voltage below a certain level and a 1 is a voltage above another level. The actual voltages vary depending upon the logic circuits used. Common ones (CMOS) that operate on 5 volts supply tend to use above 3.7v for the 1 and less than 1.3v for the 0. The bit in bewteen is like a buffer zone. So the device will switch to 1 when the voltage goes above 3.7 and then only switch back to a 0 state when the voltage goes below 1.3v. Even so, the rate that the voltage changes is important as it will slightly alter the point in time where the gate switches, as the voltage passes through the threshold points. Capacitance is one culprit for slowing the rate of change of signals.
So although we're talking 1's and 0's there are a lot of other considerations surrounding the actual implementation of the so called digital bits in the analogue world.
Cheers,
Tony
I am really looking forward to biting the head off the next person who says there is no difference between digital cables....
I'm still evaluating mine, but let's say as a starter for 10 that I am from the same college as DaveK... An improvement I wouldn't believe - indeed still not sure I do believe, hence why I am trying to prove myself wrong - so far without success! :)
I am really looking forward to biting the head off the next person who says there is no difference between digital cables....
Is there a difference?... <dons Victor Medrew voice> I don't belive it! :lol:
Mikey, did you get the cables I sent back? :)
Marco.
Not yet. :confused:
I'm sure they'll be along shortly...
Hi Steven,
Yes, mine arrived today and am listening to it now - not too bad either but don't let Mike know that I'm so enthusiastic or he might start jacking the price up :lolsign: ;) :lolsign: .
Hi Mike,
As per my earlier PM my cables are now with me , with one installed between CDP and Wolfsoned 7520 ( the other is shortly to go to Stratmangler for short term trial). I could drag my post out a bit by telling you all about my day but I'm not like that so I'll put your mind at ease straight away.
Your reputation as a manufacturer of digital co-ax cables has no equal IMHO.
Although I was expecting to notice the difference from what I remembered of the 1m cable I originally had I am in fact gobsmacked by what I am listening to now (Equinoxe of course, 'cos I am so familiar with it). Seriously, it is in grave danger of relegating my newly acquired Techie onto the back burner for a while and that does surprise me!! I listened to a few selected bits of Equinoxe with the Belden Video Brilliance co-ax i/c (no bad cable in it's own right) just to fix the sound in my ears (refresh my memory) and then repaced it with your's - night and day just is not adequate to describe the difference - I could become a serious audiophile if I thought that other improvements of a similar magnitude were available but it just cannot be possible. I said before about the 1m cable that it was the best sound-per-pound investment I had ever made and that remains the case, only more so.
Everything is so much clearer and brighter (sharper is perhaps a better word), it's like someone has removed a heavy drape from between me and the speakers, one that I wasn't even aware of until now. I also seem to find it louder without touching the volume control, which again I don't remember before. It may not be a popular view in some quarters but I am wondering if the 1.54m length is responsible for the improvement because it is noticeably better than I remember the 1m cable to be. There again, maybe you weren't joking when you said you'd make mine extra special - whatever the reason, that's exactly what they are - absolutely bloody brilliant - thank you very very much.
Cheers.
Steady on now! :o
You should have got them today, mate, as they were sent by Registered First Class Post yesterday...
Let me know if they arrive tomorrow.
Marco.
Is there a difference?... <dons Victor Medrew voice> I don't belive it! :lol:
Mike, my wife sometimes calls me Victor (can't imagine why :lol: ) and I do believe it, having had 2 sessions of listening several days apart with 2 different cables.
I'm now listening to a bit of classical piano music (don't they say that that is amongst the most difficult sounds to reproduce accurately ?) and it's sublime.
Cheers,
Glad to hear they're doing the trick for you, matey.
Enjoy! :)
I'm still evaluating mine, but let's say as a starter for 10 that I am from the same college as DaveK... An improvement I wouldn't believe - indeed still not sure I do believe, hence why I am trying to prove myself wrong - so far without success! :)
Hi Alex,
is it the new Blue one you and Dave have?
Ta.
All digital signals are in fact analogue. ;) The 0's and 1's just being represented by different voltage levels. General convention is that a 0 is a voltage below a certain level and a 1 is a voltage above another level. The actual voltages vary depending upon the logic circuits used. Common ones (CMOS) that operate on 5 volts supply tend to use above 3.7v for the 1 and less than 1.3v for the 0. The bit in bewteen is like a buffer zone. So the device will switch to 1 when the voltage goes above 3.7 and then only switch back to a 0 state when the voltage goes below 1.3v. Even so, the rate that the voltage changes is important as it will slightly alter the point in time where the gate switches, as the voltage passes through the threshold points. Capacitance is one culprit for slowing the rate of change of signals.
So although we're talking 1's and 0's there are a lot of other considerations surrounding the actual implementation of the so called digital bits in the analogue world.
Cheers,
Tony
Actually Tony that's not strictly correct with SPDIF. SPDIF uses Bi-Phase mark encoding (voltage levels are lower at a 0.5 to 1.0v). With BPM coding the receiver is looking for polarity transitions in the signal not absolute levels to determine if the bit is a 0 or a 1 See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biphase_mark_code
A 0 is represented as two same level bits and a 1 as two different level bits...
This means the receiver end has an 'easier' time in extracting the data and clock from the signal....which when you look at it is very similar to a FM signal.
Covenant
04-09-2009, 08:54
Posting the posh cable off to Gazjam today Mike....
Reading Dave's response to his new cable was very enjoyable. To get so much pleasure out of an inexpensive improvement to your system is what, to me, this hobby is all about.
Dave is now a hi-fi addict for which there is no cure! :)
Hi Alex,
is it the new Blue one you and Dave have?
Ta.
Hi Gaz,
Mine is the mid-range white one, not the posher blue one - I went on Jerry's (odourous one) opinion that there was no noticeable differences and as he reported the same sort of improvement as I got when evaluating the white one, my logic said that if he didn't get any improvement, I probably wouldn't. Crazy uhh?
Not bothered after listening to the white one last night, it's brilliant!!! It's better than I remember, which MAY be due to the fact that I asked Mike to make the new ones 1.54m in length (after your earlier comments) rather than the previous 1m one.
Cheers,
Tony Moore
04-09-2009, 10:12
Hi Neal,
Sorry! :o I was trying to not get into too much detail on the finer points. I take your point but I was just using CMOS as an example to illustrate the problems.
Surely, even with a BPM receiver the actual switching is still based on a threshold, either positive or negative that the signal must be above before the transition is accepted as valid. So this would still give rise (excuse the pun! ;)) to timing instability if the signal quality is poor?
Transmitting audio timing clocks is a pain! Far better to use one of the newer technologies like LVDS (low voltage differential signaling) that is used in most modern high speed busses. Transmitting the I2S signals directly via this means would cut out all that s/pdif stuff. :smoking:
Cheers,
Tony
Hi Alex,
is it the new Blue one you and Dave have?
No Gary - the middle of the range (white/pearl) one - I didn't think my system justified the next step up, bearing in mind Jerry (Covenant)'s feeling that it didn't make much difference in his system.
Hi Neal,
Sorry! :o I was trying to not get into too much detail on the finer points. I take your point but I was just using CMOS as an example to illustrate the problems.
Surely, even with a BPM receiver the actual switching is still based on a threshold, either positive or negative that the signal must be above before the transition is accepted as valid. So this would still give rise (excuse the pun! ;)) to timing instability if the signal quality is poor?
Transmitting audio timing clocks is a pain! Far better to use one of the newer technologies like LVDS (low voltage differential signaling) that is used in most modern high speed busses. Transmitting the I2S signals directly via this means would cut out all that s/pdif stuff. :smoking:
Cheers,
Tony
Sensing a signal transition is less critical and less prone to the affects of jitter than waiting for a signal to rise above a set threshold for a typical sample and hold receive cct.... which is affected by variance of leading edge rise times and jitter in the sample window, also how do you extract the clock....
LVDS!?, remember SPDIF was 'developed' from AES/EBU, a nice differential balanced solution less prone to the issues that consumer SPDIF has!
SPDIF can work really well with correctly impedance matched cables and terminations (BNC), I2S doesn't carry well over distance, a few cm at most.
Tony Moore
04-09-2009, 12:30
Hi Neal,
I don't disagree wit you! :) S/PDif can work fine, when implemented well. Unfortunately a lot of implementations fall short of ideal.
I have tried s/pdif from my CDPro2 to DAC using properly matched bnc terminated co-ax, pulse transformers, etc.
I'm pretty sure it was a good implementation.
Then I tried I2S directly from the CDPro2 into the DAC chip and it was certainly much better in terms of sound quality.
As you say though, the short wire lengths are a problem. I couldn't use it like this in my case (case being the problem!) as I'd built those fancy ally wine bottle stopper cabinets and so there was no room for bringing the DAC close to the CDPro mech.
Hence I mentioned the LVDS as a means of extending the length of the cabling between the CDP and DAC by sending the three I2S signals down it's own pair using LDVS drivers/receivers. I don't know if they're suitable, the bandwidth on them is certainly very high! Far higher than needed for I2S. But then again, it's down to implementation, getting the power supplies and pcb layout right.
In the end though, as you know, I stuffed a Squeezebox Receiver in the case, close to the DAC and ran I2S directly. So I didn't go any further with the LVDS thing.
Cheers,
Tony
Anyone recognize the plugs used here? :eyebrows:
http://www.coherent-systems.co.uk/images/used/42.jpg
They're the same as I use on my cheapest I/C, only hidden with some heatshrink. And here they are on a pair costing over two thousand pounds new! :smoking:
My prices are waaaay too low! :lol:
Thnaks for pointing that out Mike, I'll send you another PayPal payment of £1,960*
* (When I get 6 correct numbers on the lottery!)
electric beach
04-09-2009, 17:06
No, seriously Mike, we'd love to pay £2,000 for your cable. Just thinking about that increased 'pride of ownership' and Willy-Waving potential has me drooling before I've even seen the beast in it's woolly sock flesh. :youtheman:
Actually, we'd probably just be more familiar with feeling something more akin to the woolly hatted customer at mr Kermit's Snake Oil Emporium, as depicted in your avatar.
Soz. It's been a long, long day. The cracks are showing. :drugs:
Anyway, have we decided anything on this 1.5 metre business? Dave, could it be that because you read about it, you're now hearing it? There could be so many things influencing a short (very) term comparison two days apart - mood, room temperature, 'leccy quality. I've always accepted this tacit understanding that all cables should be as short as possible, I guess on the premise "do no harm - or failing that, minimise the damage".
Considering the excellent recent explainations of just why one digital cable could sound different to another (well, I started with enlightenment, then I started to get Technical Dyslexia), has anyone a theory about the effect of cable length and specifically why 1.5 metres could possibly be "ideal to minimise reflections".
All of us studious hitchhikers know that 42 is the magic number - and 42mm the magic length. :o
I really must have a lie down...
Covenant
04-09-2009, 17:28
I am thinking of returning my cable to Mike so that he can sign it. In years to come I can leave it in my will to fund some worthy cause. :lol:
Mike, my wife sometimes calls me Victor (can't imagine why :lol: ) and I do believe it, having had 2 sessions of listening several days apart with 2 different cables.
I'm now listening to a bit of classical piano music (don't they say that that is amongst the most difficult sounds to reproduce accurately ?) and it's sublime.
Cheers,
My Missus likes to call me "Mary", but just on the weekends....:ner:
Posting the posh cable off to Gazjam today Mike....
Reading Dave's response to his new cable was very enjoyable. To get so much pleasure out of an inexpensive improvement to your system is what, to me, this hobby is all about.
Dave is now a hi-fi addict for which there is no cure! :)
Cheers for that Jerry!
Its an addiction that's spreading...
If I ever produce a cable costing two grand, you may shoot me! :mental:
If I ever produce a cable worth two grand, you may award me a medal! :lol:
If I ever produce a cable worth two grand, you may award me a medal! :lol:
The D. Kendrick Gold Cross and Bar plus several Oak Leaf Clusters on it's way!! ;)
No Gary - the middle of the range (white/pearl) one - I didn't think my system justified the next step up, bearing in mind Jerry (Covenant)'s feeling that it didn't make much difference in his system.
Cheers Alex,
As Jerrys posting the blue one out to me, I'm looking forward to comparing it against my current fav (but not my much mind) the NVA Super Sound Pipe.
Will I notice a difference?
My systems not particulalry "Hi End" so I'm not taking any percieved result as gospel comment on the absolute sound quality of Mikes cable, rather in the context of my system.
That said, differences were marked between different cables, so maybe not a bad judging platform?
Look forward to it anyway. :)
Next up after that - alternatives to the 4562 with the Wolfsen Dac chip.
All of us studious hitchhikers know that 42 is the magic number - and 42mm the magic length. :o
I really must have a lie down...
Guess some women are easily satisfied.....:smoking::)
Will I notice a difference?
My systems not particulalry "Hi End" so I'm not taking any percieved result as gospel comment on the absolute sound quality of Mikes cable, rather in the context of my system.
That said, differences were marked between different cables, so maybe not a bad judging platform?
Nah then Wazuk, (don't know what it means, my wife calls me by it occassionally :) ),
My bloody system's not particularly 'High End' either, in fact it's several rungs down the ladder from yours, so that fact alone shouldn't prevent you from noticing the improvement - 'perceived' is not a word that has any place in describing the improvement bestowed by the use of Mike's cable, IMHO.
I have my own theory on this but I'm not sure that it would withstand close technical scrutiny, and that is that the more mid or even lo-fi the set up is the more room there is for Mike's cable to improve things.
Enjoy the experience anyway and book your appointment with your local Audiologist if you're not bowled over by Mike'scable.
Cheers,
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