View Full Version : Which wire for speaker crossovers?
Hi all
I'm thinking about rewiring my speakers (with silver in PTFE tubing) and I was wondering what gauge wire to use. Traditionally it seems a standard gauge wire is used within and between crossovers and drivers. Is there a case for using a fatter gauge similar to the thickness of your speaker wire, or perhaps a very fine gauge usually reserved for interconnects?
I was just wondering if anyone had an opinion on this?
P
Use flexible but low DCR (resistance) wire for the low frequency. Speaker cable is ideal. The HF section needn't use very thick gauge as it doesn't draw much power but I tend to use the same cable here too. Using silver in PTFE isn't a great idea, however popular on forums. Silver reacts electrically with PTFE tribolectrically (PTFE develops a negative charge and the silver surface becomes positiviely charged). This is said to be the cause of some HF ringing in certain circuits due to tribolectric discharge by electrical breakdown. It's not something I've measured, but in principle, I don't use silver in PTFE for any signal cables. It's quite possible that this has led to the myth about silver sounding "harsh" when it has no sound of it's own!
On no account be tempted to use interconnect coax. It's not in the least suitable.
The thing about crossover to speaker runs is to keep them relatively short but several metres is not a problem. Any decent flexible OFC speaker cable should be fine. Avoid cheap Chinese multistrand OFC, the type you see in see through rolls..much of it is a copper alloy, not pure copper, and its cheap, nasty and has no place in a hifi system!
Thanks for your thoughts Paul, much appreciated - I too had considered the possibility of going speaker style thickness.
It's interesting that you commented on the issue of silver in PTFE, I'd read about these concerns of HF ringing from various sources. I must admit over the last 6 months I've been gradually replacing my cables with silver/PTFE. It seems to have a positive effect in my system. Just out of interest, what would you choose to house/protect silver wire - cotton perhaps?
P
Thanks for your thoughts Paul, much appreciated - I too had considered the possibility of going speaker style thickness.
It's interesting that you commented on the issue of silver in PTFE, I'd read about these concerns of HF ringing from various sources. I must admit over the last 6 months I've been gradually replacing my cables with silver/PTFE. It seems to have a positive effect in my system. Just out of interest, what would you choose to house/protect silver wire - cotton perhaps?
P
In spite of the theory Paul, if it sounds better, that's what matters so stick with it. Cotton insulation is better, yes.
The theoretical advantage of going the silver route for interconnects is making the conductor as thin as possible as (theoretically) this has benefits. The reality though is that once a certain gauge is reached, mechanical reliability becomes the dominant factor so for all practical purposes, there's little to be achieved by going much thinner than say a 0.3mm diameter (approx AWG 28 gauge) section and then it should be ideally multistranded or litz to avoid work hardening and fracture with flex. For all intents and purposes, a pure copper will be every bit as "good".
In spite of the theory Paul, if it sounds better, that's what matters so stick with it. Cotton insulation is better, yes.
The theoretical advantage of going the silver route for interconnects is making the conductor as thin as possible as (theoretically) this has benefits. The reality though is that once a certain gauge is reached, mechanical reliability becomes the dominant factor so for all practical purposes, there's little to be achieved by going much thinner than say a 0.3mm diameter (approx AWG 28 gauge) section and then it should be ideally multistranded or litz to avoid work hardening and fracture with flex. For all intents and purposes, a pure copper will be every bit as "good".
I must say, I've not tried silver in cotton, so I've no experience as to whether it's better than PTFE. I'll look out for some cotton insulation to experiment with. I'm guessing it'll be a lot cheaper than PTFE!
Prior to working with silver I had cardas IC's. I preferred the silver.
awkwardbydesign
08-11-2014, 16:17
I would say don't use anything you don't like as speaker cable. I had some cable that was apparently the same as Chord Rumour Install (same factory, different colour insulation). I hated it, so it will also have to come out of the crossovers.
At the moment I have borrowed some TQ speaker cable; unfortunately I couldn't afford to rewire with that!
In spite of the theory Paul, if it sounds better, that's what matters so stick with it. Cotton insulation is better, yes.
The theoretical advantage of going the silver route for interconnects is making the conductor as thin as possible as (theoretically) this has benefits. The reality though is that once a certain gauge is reached, mechanical reliability becomes the dominant factor so for all practical purposes, there's little to be achieved by going much thinner than say a 0.3mm diameter (approx AWG 28 gauge) section and then it should be ideally multistranded or litz to avoid work hardening and fracture with flex. For all intents and purposes, a pure copper will be every bit as "good".
Pure silver has a conductivity that is only 6% greater than that of pure copper, so in my opinion is not worth the increased cost.
Would agree with you regarding the tribolectric effect of silver in PTFE sleeving, but if the PTFE insulation is moulded onto the silver conductor, there should be no problem. Tribolectric generated noise in microphone coaxial cables is caused by the outer screen, or braid, rubbing against the dielectric insulation, as the braid is woven over the insulation during manufacture and can thus move.
has anyone done any back to back tests between silver cabling with different sleeving?
Pure silver has a conductivity that is only 6% greater than that of pure copper, so in my opinion is not worth the increased cost.
Would agree with you regarding the tribolectric effect of silver in PTFE sleeving, but if the PTFE insulation is molded onto the silver conductor, there should be no problem. Tribolectric generated noise in microphone coaxial cables is caused by the outer screen, or braid, rubbing against the dielectric insulation, as the brade is woven over the insulation during manufacture and can thus move.
It's for that reason that many coax cables use a tribolectric inner grounding jacket (graphite impregnated plastic of some sort). I think it's more of an issue with mic cables than audio interconnects though. I agree RE silver. It's not worth the extra cost and the cost is vastly over inflated in most cases.
On the odd occasion I've rewired speakers I have used the same wire I was using as speaker cable. Just seemed to make sense.
The Barbarian
09-11-2014, 16:40
I have Kimber 'TCX' in my speakerz.. These were done at the same time i used Kimber '8TC' Speaker leads infact once upon a time my whole system connection leads including internal cables were all the same Kimber Kable
337alant
10-11-2014, 00:33
For speakers I use the same cable from the output of the amplifier board to the speaker driver and that is Van Damme speaker cable ;)
Cheep and excellent.
You know it makes sense :rolleyes:
Alan
Thanks for your thoughts guys. I'm in agreement, I think it makes sense to use the same cable as your speaker connections.
awkwardbydesign
10-11-2014, 10:00
Thanks for your thoughts guys. I'm in agreement, I think it makes sense to use the same cable as your speaker connections.
But then if you find a better sounding speaker cable, will you worry about your internal wiring? :hmm:
But then if you find a better sounding speaker cable, will you worry about your internal wiring? :hmm:
Compared with the effects of the crossover and speaker driver/voice coil itself, a fraction of a metre of any speaker cable connecting crossover to drive units will likely make next to no difference to sound quality at all. Not one iota. If it does, then there is something very seriously amiss.
awkwardbydesign
10-11-2014, 14:30
Compared with the effects of the crossover and speaker driver/voice coil itself, a fraction of a metre of any speaker cable connecting crossover to drive units will likely make next to no difference to sound quality at all. Not one iota. If it does, then there is something very seriously amiss.
It's dangerous to generalise. I have an external crossover; there is nearly a metre of cabling between it and the drivers. 3 way, so 3 lengths. 2 metres of speaker cable from the amp makes a BIG difference*, so half that is likely to make a significant difference.
*TQ Ultra Black was top, followed by TQ Ultra Blue. TQ Blue was so-so, Van Damme Blue 6mm below that and Van Damme 6mm HiFi below that. Last was Polk Cobra. TQ Blue downwards were too soft and fuzzy. Ultra Black is too expensive, Ultra Blue may be affordable. All in MY system in my room!
I haven't tried that many, so I guess there will others that will/won't perform well.
It's dangerous to generalise. I have an external crossover; there is nearly a metre of cabling between it and the drivers. 3 way, so 3 lengths. 2 metres of speaker cable from the amp makes a BIG difference*, so half that is likely to make a significant difference.
*TQ Ultra Black was top, followed by TQ Ultra Blue. TQ Blue was so-so, Van Damme Blue 6mm below that and Van Damme 6mm HiFi below that. Last was Polk Cobra. TQ Blue downwards were too soft and fuzzy. Ultra Black is too expensive, Ultra Blue may be affordable. All in MY system in my room!
I haven't tried that many, so I guess there will others that will/won't perform well.
If it makes a big difference for something that measures fractions of an Ohm, then quite clearly something is amiss. Either the cables are exhibiting significant differences in L-C-R parameters or its expectation bias at play. Sorry but a few metres of 1mm thick wire between crossovers and speakers will usually make sod all difference to the sound of a system. Even doubling that to 2mm or even 4mm makes such little differnce in impedance difference to the filter, it's negligible. However, that's not to say that some vendors don't deliberately engineer oddities into the geometry of cables to deliberately alter L-C characteristics significantly. I wouldn't use such cables. To suggest that a single metre of decently designed and good quality copper cable cable connecting a crossover to a driver makes a significant difference is cloud cuckoo land as far as I'm concerned.
awkwardbydesign
10-11-2014, 16:42
To suggest that a single metre of decently designed and good quality copper cable cable connecting a crossover to a driver makes a significant difference is cloud cuckoo land as far as I'm concerned.
That's rather arrogant..
But then if you find a better sounding speaker cable, will you worry about your internal wiring? :hmm:
I don't know Richard, after having some decent copper in my system I rather like what silver can do. My system is now entirely silver wired. If I want to change the crossovers I can always redo them, it's not greatly complex. I was thinking of getting the drivers measured and having some transmission line cabinets built - now that may present a problem if they had to be 'sealed', lol.
awkwardbydesign
10-11-2014, 22:02
I don't know Richard, after having some decent copper in my system I rather like what silver can do. My system is now entirely silver wired. If I want to change the crossovers I can always redo them, it's not greatly complex. I was thinking of getting the drivers measured and having some transmission line cabinets built - now that may present a problem if they had to be 'sealed', lol.
I would suggest putting a removable hatch on the bottom of a transmission line cabinet. It's what I do to alter the line stuffing if needed. The ends of the line can be accessed from the port and driver holes. My crossovers are in boxes hanging on elastic behind the cabinets, with a sliding lid to get at the components. I could actually alter them while playing music. But I wouldn't, as I'd probably blow something!
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m604/awkwardbydesign/JENZEN%20SEAS%20ER/P1000240_zpsfa4c515c.jpg (http://s1134.photobucket.com/user/awkwardbydesign/media/JENZEN%20SEAS%20ER/P1000240_zpsfa4c515c.jpg.html)
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m604/awkwardbydesign/JENZEN%20SEAS%20ER/P1000201_zps10c8df2f.jpg (http://s1134.photobucket.com/user/awkwardbydesign/media/JENZEN%20SEAS%20ER/P1000201_zps10c8df2f.jpg.html)
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m604/awkwardbydesign/JENZEN%20SEAS%20ER/7e8e502a-11e2-403c-a0e0-2a82118adc3b_zps0bb63014.jpg (http://s1134.photobucket.com/user/awkwardbydesign/media/JENZEN%20SEAS%20ER/7e8e502a-11e2-403c-a0e0-2a82118adc3b_zps0bb63014.jpg.html)
The connecting cables were an experiment that hasn't worked.
I would suggest putting a removable hatch on the bottom of a transmission line cabinet. It's what I do to alter the line stuffing if needed. The ends of the line can be accessed from the port and driver holes. My crossovers are in boxes hanging on elastic behind the cabinets, with a sliding lid to get at the components. I could actually alter them while playing music. But I wouldn't, as I'd probably blow something!
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m604/awkwardbydesign/JENZEN%20SEAS%20ER/P1000240_zpsfa4c515c.jpg (http://s1134.photobucket.com/user/awkwardbydesign/media/JENZEN%20SEAS%20ER/P1000240_zpsfa4c515c.jpg.html)
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m604/awkwardbydesign/JENZEN%20SEAS%20ER/P1000201_zps10c8df2f.jpg (http://s1134.photobucket.com/user/awkwardbydesign/media/JENZEN%20SEAS%20ER/P1000201_zps10c8df2f.jpg.html)
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m604/awkwardbydesign/JENZEN%20SEAS%20ER/7e8e502a-11e2-403c-a0e0-2a82118adc3b_zps0bb63014.jpg (http://s1134.photobucket.com/user/awkwardbydesign/media/JENZEN%20SEAS%20ER/7e8e502a-11e2-403c-a0e0-2a82118adc3b_zps0bb63014.jpg.html)
The connecting cables were an experiment that hasn't worked.
Yes, indeed, an external crossover is the way to go. I must think about that.
When I spoke to 'speaker expert' who would be measuring the drivers and building the cabinets I did mention the issue of sealing the cabinet and he did say that generally it was unnecessary if the panels had been measured and cut properly. But yes, external crossovers sounds like a good idea.
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m604/awkwardbydesign/JENZEN%20SEAS%20ER/P1000240_zpsfa4c515c.jpg (http://s1134.photobucket.com/user/awkwardbydesign/media/JENZEN%20SEAS%20ER/P1000240_zpsfa4c515c.jpg.html)
I'm surprised you haven't orientated the inductors relative to each other to minimise interaction/coupling between them.
awkwardbydesign
11-11-2014, 09:47
I'm surprised you haven't orientated the inductors relative to each other to minimise interaction/coupling between them.
I think they are far enough apart to not need it, but when I rewire it I will look at that again. I think I had the middle one on it's side originally, but it was in a different position then. And there are another 2 small inductors to go in, air cored to replace the little ferrite cores.
I did wonder if it was because of their values - the top left one looks like it may be quite large though (5mH +).
That's rather arrogant..
The thought of 1m of speaker cable between crossover and drivers, competently designed and of an appropriate gauge making any difference at all to the sound of a speaker system, is in my humble opinion, cloud cuckoo land, and stating otherwise as if it were a fact is where the arrogance lies I'm afraid. No offence intended, it is not personal...it's only hifi. There's far more impact on things like having the inductors closely spaced in the same orientation, as Mark points out.
awkwardbydesign
11-11-2014, 11:26
I did wonder if it was because of their values - the top left one looks like it may be quite large though (5mH +).
I have initially followed Troels' layout, but it is still a work in progress. He is well aware if the interaction of inductors, so I laid it out the same. However, before I finish, I will measure the actual inductance in diferent orientations and see if it does indeed make a difference. The speaker cables are making the biggest difference at the moment, not just to my ears either, but then I listen rather than rely on numbers. After 40+ years of building and modifying I have come to trust them. After all, they ARE the final arbiter when it comes to sound; I can't hear measurements. ;)
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Jenzen-NEXT_files/jenzen-next-xover-1-small.jpg Bear in mind this board is not as small as it looks.
The Black Adder
11-11-2014, 11:38
True but he's obviously gone with the manageable sized board, looks and his design style options rather than sonics. No mind though, so long as they sound better than they did before then that's what matters.... :)
For me, space is the biggest influence in regards to coils. If they need to be bigger and maybe a little bulky/sprawling then so be it, the customer just needs to accept the reasons why and work around it... and often as not, they do just that. :)
awkwardbydesign
11-11-2014, 11:44
True but he's obviously gone with the manageable sized board, looks and his design style options rather than sonics.
Depends whether he has tried it different ways or not. I would email him and ask but I'm too lazy! Besides, I will do my own tests.
He did it here, so I don't know why he didn't do it with the NEXT crossover.
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Jenzen-CA_files/xover-3-small.jpg
I have initially followed Troels' layout, but it is still a work in progress. He is well aware if the interaction of inductors, so I laid it out the same. However, before I finish, I will measure the actual inductance in diferent orientations and see if it does indeed make a difference. The speaker cables are making the biggest difference at the moment, not just to my ears either, but then I listen rather than rely on numbers. After 40+ years of building and modifying I have come to trust them. After all, they ARE the final arbiter when it comes to sound; I can't hear measurements. ;)
As you say, Troels should know how inductors interact and I've seen also seen similar layouts from him which appear to ignore such issues. The small inductor positioning I can understand; however, I would be very surprised if there is not some interaction between the large toroid inductor and the cored one to its right.
Personally, I rely on both my ears and measurement and do not rely on either exclusively. However, if I were to alter the value of a crossover inductor by 10% (which is feasible with interaction) I would expect to be able to measure it and to hear it - I would certainly expect it to make more difference than alterations to the internal wiring!
I have some spare inductors - I will experiment with layout and see if any alteration in their mH value can be measured.
I'm quite open to the idea that shorter runs of cable between crossovers/drivers is beneficial. I collect EMI elliptical speaker drivers and for the 319 models in particular they went to great lengths to keep the runs as short as possible - mounting the X-over on the chassis of the driver with the tweeter running co-axil across the center and the cable runs so ridiculously tight I wonder how they managed to solder the joints.
The Black Adder
11-11-2014, 13:53
I'm quite open to the idea that shorter runs of cable between crossovers/drivers is beneficial. I collect EMI elliptical speaker drivers and for the 319 models in particular they went to great lengths to keep the runs as short as possible - mounting the X-over on the chassis of the driver with the tweeter running co-axil across the center and the cable runs so ridiculously tight I wonder how they managed to solder the joints.
With proper skill... :)
Depends on the cable in my experience. Keeping it at least 14AWG seems to be fine up to 1m. With my speakers though (because of the size of the cabs), working back from the drivers I already have 0.75m inside the cabs from driver to plugs and then 0.80m from plugs to crossovers.
I use VDH CS-14 Hybrid internally and The Wind MKII Hybrid for the crossover cables... and Van Damme Blue 6mm from crossover to amp.
BTW... never heard of or heard the EMI elliptical drivers, good are they? - Any pics?
As you say, Troels should know how inductors interact and I've seen also seen similar layouts from him which appear to ignore such issues. The small inductor positioning I can understand; however, I would be very surprised if there is not some interaction between the large toroid inductor and the cored one to its right.
Personally, I rely on both my ears and measurement and do not rely on either exclusively. However, if I were to alter the value of a crossover inductor by 10% (which is feasible with interaction) I would expect to be able to measure it and to hear it - I would certainly expect it to make more difference than alterations to the internal wiring!
I have some spare inductors - I will experiment with layout and see if any alteration in their mH value can be measured.
Exactly so Mark; well put.
Troels measures EVERYTHING. He doesn't design by ear, he fine tunes by ear. There's a big difference. Truth is, a crossover cannot in any way, shape or form be designed by ear, or by using "cookbook" values. Driver impedance and acoustic response need to be known first (most drivers exhibit differences in impedance response with frequency), and the only way that happens is by measuring them. If an inductor is changed by 10%, lets say the value is decreased by 10%, for the average 8 Ohm bass driver measuring closer to 6 Ohms at crossover (with correction applied), the actual crossover point could well increase by 200 to 250Hz, phase would be out (audibly) and summed response would be audibly raised at crossover.
As you say, it can be measured but differences of 10% can easily be heard too. The other consideration with inductor interaction is not just variations in inductance itself, but the risk of inductive coupling for example both raising the voltage in the smaller of the two (lets say where a woofer inductor is close to a tweeter inductor) and increasing audible distortion. I think Troels recommends 200mm spacing for air cores in the same plane as a rule of thumb. I have found that you can get away with closer distances for cored inductors, perhaps about half that value depending on frequency (hence power through the inductor). The comparison between that and a copper multistrand cable of say 1m length between crossover and speaker (negligible in terms of capacitance and inductance AND impedance) is easily measured and heard. I've tried all sorts of cables from Van Damme Blue (2.5 and 4mm2), Black rhodium (1mm2 and 2.5mm2), Budget 4mm2 OFC; silver plated 2.5mm Chord cables, talk cable, high end Fluid cables and many others in the exact same position in the same crossover to speaker position and for all of those, there was zero measurable or audible difference as one might expect. Change just one inductor by 10% though (or a capacitor) and often the results are very audible. Close tolerance matching, good practice with layout and the correct filter values are all very important.
awkwardbydesign
11-11-2014, 17:54
Troels measures EVERYTHING.
Not going to argue with that. However, his cabinet measurements are sometimes suspect. That is they don't always match the pictures or diagrams. I had to recut the Jenzen midrange faceplates because they didn't add up. I know that's slightly different, but it means I will check his measurements if I can, and if I can't I will use my ears. After all, I am the one who has to live with it, so what my ears tell me is the final arbiter.
Not going to argue with that. However, his cabinet measurements are sometimes suspect. That is they don't always match the pictures or diagrams. I had to recut the Jenzen midrange faceplates because they didn't add up. I know that's slightly different, but it means I will check his measurements if I can, and if I can't I will use my ears. After all, I am the one who has to live with it, so what my ears tell me is the final arbiter.
Agreed Richard. His supplied designs can be a bit off sometimes from what I've seen and some of his crossover designs themselves are a bit odd (sometimes a little unorthodox, but if they work, they work). I'd be interested especially if his stepped baffle designs manage to avoid diffraction issues as sometimes the diffraction effects can outweigh the advantages of the time alignment he's aiming for. Still, he seems to be thorough in his thinking through potential issues for the most part.
With proper skill... :)
Depends on the cable in my experience. Keeping it at least 14AWG seems to be fine up to 1m. With my speakers though (because of the size of the cabs), working back from the drivers I already have 0.75m inside the cabs from driver to plugs and then 0.80m from plugs to crossovers.
I use VDH CS-14 Hybrid internally and The Wind MKII Hybrid for the crossover cables... and Van Damme Blue 6mm from crossover to amp.
BTW... never heard of or heard the EMI elliptical drivers, good are they? - Any pics?
Yes, longer runs for floor standers, etc are unavoidable and wouldn't bother me in the slightest tbh.
Here's a couple of my drivers, a 319, with co-axil tweeter:
http://i60.tinypic.com/53tlb9.jpg
http://i59.tinypic.com/6p2169.jpg
And the speakers in my current system - the 9206 - which I'm looking to re-wire. Two tweeters this time above the mid/bass woofer. Eventually I want to get these drivers measured and some Transmission line cabinets made.
http://i62.tinypic.com/23vycya.jpg
http://i61.tinypic.com/30neud1.jpg
awkwardbydesign
11-11-2014, 18:55
His claim that the Jenzen SEAS ER crossover will take the NEXT mid driver with no changes is definitely not true. The NEXT unit IS clearer, but is brighter sounding, so needs treating differently. I am in the process of altering the crossover, but have other things to do first. Settling on a speaker cable that doesn't mask the very things I need to hear, for one. And the tweeter needs the notch filters too, I can hear the changes quite distinctly. Even the change from Jantzen MOX resistors to Mills wirewounds has an effect. As for capacitors, don't get me started! I really wish I COULDN'T hear the differences, but I can. Changing the I/V resistors in my DAC (Kiwame>Takman> Shinkoh>Z Foils) all made an audible difference. I am just astonished when people say they can't hear differences, and yes, I include cables. Still, it takes all sorts, but please don't try to tell me I'm imagining it. Especially with phrases like "cloud cuckoo land". It doesn't look good.
awkwardbydesign
11-11-2014, 18:59
Here's a couple of my drivers, a 319, with co-axil tweeter:
http://i60.tinypic.com/53tlb9.jpg
Good Lord! I haven't seen those since the 70s.
His claim that the Jenzen SEAS ER crossover will take the NEXT mid driver with no changes is definitely not true. The NEXT unit IS clearer, but is brighter sounding, so needs treating differently. I am in the process of altering the crossover, but have other things to do first. Settling on a speaker cable that doesn't mask the very things I need to hear, for one. And the tweeter needs the notch filters too, I can hear the changes quite distinctly. Even the change from Jantzen MOX resistors to Mills wirewounds has an effect. As for capacitors, don't get me started! I really wish I COULDN'T hear the differences, but I can. Changing the I/V resistors in my DAC (Kiwame>Takman> Shinkoh>Z Foils) all made an audible difference. I am just astonished when people say they can't hear differences, and yes, I include cables. Still, it takes all sorts, but please don't try to tell me I'm imagining it. Especially with phrases like "cloud cuckoo land". It doesn't look good.
don't get me started on resistors! that's almost the identical path i took on my SUT/phono amp - takman & kiwame to Shinkoh and then Z-foils. Both shinkoh and z -foils were the biggest upgrades i've ever heard in my system.
Good Lord! I haven't seen those since the 70s.
brown basket - 60's to be exact, lol :)
However, his cabinet measurements are sometimes suspect. That is they don't always match the pictures or diagrams. I had to recut the Jenzen midrange faceplates because they didn't add up. I know that's slightly different, but it means I will check his measurements if I can, and if I can't I will use my ears. After all, I am the one who has to live with it, so what my ears tell me is the final arbiter.
Yes, his measurements for the Yamaha NS-1000M backplate are wrong. I emailed him the correct ones and he now includes the on his site. At the time he put it down to batch variation but I am highly skeptical.
awkwardbydesign
12-11-2014, 13:59
To be fair to Troels, he doesn't rely on measurements, at least not for sound. It's a bit different for cabinet construction, though!
"About measurements: Measurements may give us an idea of tonal balance of a system, i.e. too much or too little energy in certain areas. Measurements may tell us about bass extension if far-field measurements are merged with near-field measurements. In addition to this ports may contribute to bass extension. Most of us diy'ers do not have access to an anechoic room for full-range measurements from 20-20000 Hz.
What cannot be seen is what kind of bass performance we get in a given room. Bass performance is highly dependent on in-room placement of your speaker and the same speaker can be boomy in one place and lean in another. Actual SPL level at 1 meter distance and 2.8V input is useful for en estimate of system sensitivity and combined with the impedance profile may give an idea of how powerful an amplifier is needed to drive the speaker to adequate levels.
What measurements do not tell is the very sound of the speaker unless displaying serious linear distortion. The level of transparency, the ability to resolve micro-details, the "speed" of the bass, etc., cannot be derived from these data. Distortion measurements rarely tell anything unless seriously bad and most modern drivers display low distortion within their specified operating range.
Many people put way too much into these graphs and my comments here are only meant as a warning against over-interpretation. There are way more to good sound than what can be extracted from a few graphs. Every graph needs interpretation in terms of what it means sonically and how it impacts our choice of mating drivers, cabinet and crossover design."
To be fair, I think your description of what measurement can achieve is a bit limited and it's very easy to wander well off the path if you trust entirely to subjective assessment. I'm certainly not saying that measurement tells you everything but it is, in my view, an essential tool; one that can then be supported by subjective fine tuning. In addition, you don't need an anechoic chamber to make valid measurements of speaker performance (few manufacturers use anechoic measurement these days).
awkwardbydesign
12-11-2014, 19:21
you don't need an anarchic chamber
But I want one!
However, I look at it the other way round; listening supported by measurement.
Gotta love auto correction - much more fun :).
Hi all
I'm thinking about rewiring my speakers (with silver in PTFE tubing) and I was wondering what gauge wire to use. Traditionally it seems a standard gauge wire is used within and between crossovers and drivers. Is there a case for using a fatter gauge similar to the thickness of your speaker wire, or perhaps a very fine gauge usually reserved for interconnects?
I was just wondering if anyone had an opinion on this?
P
Either bell-wire or 30amp twin and earth mains wire should do.Very hard to tell the difference due to the short lengths involved.
Pete.
However, I look at it the other way round; listening supported by measurement.
But aren't your speakers a Troels design? He measures first, does the maths, predicts the performance and then confirms and adjusts by ear to arrive at the final design - or just does the first three. You may be relying on subjective assessment but Troels has already done the measurement and predictive modelling footwork.
awkwardbydesign
13-11-2014, 08:07
And my previous speaker set up, which I did mainly by ear, sounded better, top to bottom. So your point is?
Actually, those of us who are set in our opinions are not going to convince each other, certainly not in this virtual environment. We are just going round in circles, getting irritated. The only reason I bother with it is that I think the newer or less experienced among us are being badly served by the dogmatic approach of some.
So I will leave this alone for now.
And my previous speaker set up, which I did mainly by ear, sounded better, top to bottom. So your point is?
Actually, those of us who are set in our opinions are not going to convince each other, certainly not in this virtual environment. We are just going round in circles, getting irritated. The only reason I bother with it is that I think the newer or less experienced among us are being badly served by the dogmatic approach of some.
So I will leave this alone for now.
There's nothing wrong with a little experimentation Richard but all you're doing by encouraging those new to speaker design to throw the textbooks out of the window, is to set them up for disappointment (more often than not). You cannot simply deny the physics and knowledge needed to design from scratch. There isn't a major manufacturer in existence who ignores the rule book. They all design using modelling, theory, then all the fine tuning is done by ear. Back in the day before modelling, it took people with electrical and acoustic theory knowledge of how to design a cabinet for a specific topography and driver, crossovers could be calculated to rough out designs (albeit not to the same frameworks in place today and many hours of listening tests and costly time and changes were needed to get things right). Whilst more unconventional than we see today, it was the best they did with the knowledge they had back then. If you have any doubts about this then read some 1950s or 1960s speaker design references. Briggs comes to mind as the "bible" of loudpseaker design back then, and he was certainly well versed in acoustic physics and attempted to educate people through his book on the basics of cabinet designs. I (and I suspect Mark) simply don't understand this trend by a small handful of people to completely ignore the basics, to reject learning as some sort of anathema not applicable when it is.
Experimenting with existing designs is completely different matter and can often result in some satisfying results especially as all rooms are different so interaction with speakers will be different. Even that though requires a modicum of knowledge otherwise its back to shooting in the dark and hoping for the best. There is a foundation, a basis by which all speakers are designed, otherwise no-one would know where to start, they wouldn't know the acoustic response of their speaker drivers, nor the electrical response, nor the cabinet design impacts, let alone combining these things. Finally, they wouldn't have a clue where to start with crossover design. No-one is personally having ago at your personal experiences, just stating that there's more to it than is being suggested and that even Troels for a majority (if not all) of his designs, uses modelling prediction, measurement, maths and then fine tuning using the Mk1 ear lugs. A vast majority of people that I speak to who have dabbled in speaker building without this knowledge have been put off doing it again. In your specific case, by your own admission, you have many years experience tinkering and building so surely you must have picked up and find useful some the knowledge widely available to anyone who wants to learn? Or, are you suggesting that you could pick at random, a set of derivers and without recourse to any theory, throw together a speaker and get it right by tuning by ear and nothing else? No one is denigrating your own achievements and the pleasure you obviously get by your DIY efforts Richard and all power to you, but equally, it seems churlish to reject the knowledge and experience of others well versed in the subject.
There is as much room for promotion and sharing of knowledge as there is for sharing of personal experience on this forum and it seems very odd indeed to reject one or the other in entirety.
awkwardbydesign
13-11-2014, 09:42
"There is as much room for promotion and sharing of knowledge as there is for sharing of personal experience on this forum and it seems very odd indeed to reject one or the other in entirety."
Exactly my point.
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