View Full Version : 2M Black. whats next ?
My cartridge is not ready to be changed yet but I was wondering were the next move would be.
I would be interested what past 2M Black uses have done.
Sticking with MM?
A new 2M Black stylus, a MP500 or AT150ANV would be my options.
RobbieGong
31-10-2014, 13:56
My cartridge is not ready to be changed yet but I was wondering were the next move would be.
I would be interested what past 2M Black uses have done.
Hi Barry, Good question. As a very happy 2M Black user I've often wondered the same. Can I ask if you actually like what the Black does ? If so are you seeking more of the same ? We'll await your response as Im sure this will help further response advise. ATB Rob :)
Haselsh1
31-10-2014, 15:33
I am very interested in this thread as I am contemplating buying a 2M Black and Croft phono preamp next March. I think I shall stay with moving magnet unless I can be seriously convinced otherwise. What is the stereo effect of the 2M Black like...? If say compared to a Sumiko Blackbird...?
I am very interested in this thread as I am contemplating buying a 2M Black and Croft phono preamp next March. I think I shall stay with moving magnet unless I can be seriously convinced otherwise. What is the stereo effect of the 2M Black like...? If say compared to a Sumiko Blackbird...?
Hi Shaun,
as a Croft /2M black owner i can tell you they work togther extremely well. The only other cartridge iwould consider would be a Decca.
Hi Barry, Good question. As a very happy 2M Black user I've often wondered the same. Can I ask if you actually like what the Black does ? If so are you seeking more of the same ? We'll await your response as Im sure this will help further response advise. ATB Rob :)
Hi Robert, yes I'm very pleased with it, I have very little experience with cartridges, I previously had a Denon d110 but that was on a Thorens TD160.
So I can't comment on the exact difference other than this set up is so much more revealing, on some recordings I say to myself this cannot be a better, clearer sound.
But the day will come when I will need to change it, actually now I come to think about it I'll probably change the T/T at the same time as I don't think I can get better for the Rega.
Edit to say the Rega has been modded to the max.
Clive197
31-10-2014, 17:27
A new stylus for 2M Black
A new stylus for 2M Black
Well yes but that is being sensible :D
Clive197
31-10-2014, 18:59
Well yes but that is being sensible :D
Nothing wrong with being sensible when you already have the best MM cartridge on the planet IMHO.
However should you want a MC????????
RobbieGong
31-10-2014, 21:59
Nothing wrong with being sensible when you already have the best MM cartridge on the planet IMHO.
However should you want a MC????????
1. You like what the Black does - tick !
2. Curious for a bit more of all the things you like about said Black - tick !
3. mc (very likely) - tick !
4. Doesnt cost loads more than said Black - tick !
5. Ortofon like said Black - tick !
6. Flagship of line like said Black - tick !
7. Same top quality Shibata stylus profile as said Black - tick !
8. Ortofon Quintet Black mi thinks !! - tick !?!? :D
A new stylus and optimizing the loading ;)
Upgrade to an Audio Note IQ3
:sofa:
Idlewithnodrive
01-11-2014, 13:47
AN IQ3 perhaps ?
RobbieGong
01-11-2014, 15:23
AN IQ3 perhaps ?
Not heard one but from what I've read, which sounds good, nothing points to it being a clear upgrade over the 2M Black. I dont think the op is curious about anything that might be sideways.
Not heard one but from what I've read, which sounds good, nothing points to it being a clear upgrade over the 2M Black. I dont think the op is curious about anything that might be sideways.
I have bought both, lived with both ... sold the 2M Black, kept the IQ3. Personal preference of course, but it is no exaggeration to say that the IQ3 easily competes with the mc carts I've owned costing up to twice as much. Of course the problem with top-flight modern mm carts like the Black and IQ3, is they are so good that to get a 'clear upgrade' you end up in silly-money territory (particularly if you use valves and start playing with step-up transformers).
RobbieGong
01-11-2014, 16:24
I have bought both, lived with both ... sold the 2M Black, kept the IQ3. Personal preference of course, but it is no exaggeration to say that the IQ3 easily competes with the mc carts I've owned costing up to twice as much. Of course the problem with top-flight modern mm carts like the Black and IQ3, is they are so good that to get a 'clear upgrade' you end up in silly-money territory (particularly if you use valves and start playing with step-up transformers).
I agree, personal preference plays it's part. I found this post / comment on line from hifisubjectivist.org from a thread called Moving On - upgrading MM to MC... copied as follows: Best MM I've ever owned was the Ortofon 2M Black which is a stunning thing. I really wanted to dislike it, mainly because I'd become tired of Noel Keywood and co w*nking themselves crazy over it. Bottom line though is NK was bang-on; it is utterly superb and my previous cynicism towards it was thrown in the bin. Shame it's a bit pricy for your budget and mine. . Laughed my head off at the w*nking bit as I recognised myself their, totally getting off on the 2M black all the time - I need to get a life :lol:
Your point re: top flight MM's is also true IMO. :)
As I said at the end of my last post the more I think about it and the comments on here I will continue to enjoy my T/T and Black Beauty, then have a total rethink :cheers:
belloire
01-11-2014, 19:13
If your sticking with mm then an audio note iq3, or clearaudio maestro.
If you're going mc then the world is your oyster.
Ortofon are good cartridges, but there are plenty of excellent alternatives...in fact in 40 years I have never found an Ortofon to be the best 'solution' in a given price range. It's all very personal so you have to think and explore for yourself. My current favourite in the £600 bracket is the magnificent Grado Master. It gives a challenge to some very, very, expensive alternatives... And it's moving iron, 47K .
As always, you may find your taste quite different, but try to hear what you can, don't get stuck in a narrow bunch of 'same' recommendations...there's a wider world of choice out there. The audio world has a long history of 'you can be in my gang' recommendations, which history later shows to have been dangerously narrow (think LP12.)
it's a wide, wide, world. Why not explore it. There is more 'risk' involved, but you won't have much fun in this hobby if you always seek the safe option. It's rarely the best option, just the easiest.
Alshalan
23-01-2015, 09:58
If I may ask , if i do decide to go MC, what would be my choice then? same budget.
topoxforddoc
23-01-2015, 15:41
Record cleaning machine. Best vinyl upgrade ever.
Idlewithnodrive
23-01-2015, 15:49
I went from a 2M Black to an IQ3 and it was the right move for me.
Reasons ?
1/ The 2M is just a bit too hi-fi for me, whereas the IQ3 has all the hi-fi attributes of the Black (detail openness, resolution etc) to a similar level, it just seems to sound a bit more believable / add a bit more naturalness to the mix.
2/ Set-up. The Black is a complete swine to set up. Once it is totally and stupidly accurately dialled in, it is absolutely wonderful sounding but every time I swapped cart (for me, it's just swapping headshells) the Black needed EVERYTHING completely resetting to get the best out of it. I started obsessing about the set up rather than listening to the music. Both the IQ3 and the IQ2 (my everyday cart) just need a reasonably competent set up to sound on top form, not a laser / theodolite / atomic GPS routine.
If it wasn't for the set up, I never would have moved on the Black but then I never would have bought the IQ3 ............................................
Don't forget the Black responds well to loading tweaks...actually that may be a good enough reason alone to switch as most phono stages won't have variable loading options for MM.
RobbieGong
28-01-2015, 13:22
I went from a 2M Black to an IQ3 and it was the right move for me.
Reasons ?
1/ The 2M is just a bit too hi-fi for me, whereas the IQ3 has all the hi-fi attributes of the Black (detail openness, resolution etc) to a similar level, it just seems to sound a bit more believable / add a bit more naturalness to the mix.
2/ Set-up. The Black is a complete swine to set up. Once it is totally and stupidly accurately dialled in, it is absolutely wonderful sounding but every time I swapped cart (for me, it's just swapping headshells) the Black needed EVERYTHING completely resetting to get the best out of it. I started obsessing about the set up rather than listening to the music. Both the IQ3 and the IQ2 (my everyday cart) just need a reasonably competent set up to sound on top form, not a laser / theodolite / atomic GPS routine.
If it wasn't for the set up, I never would have moved on the Black but then I never would have bought the IQ3 ............................................
Lol - Just seen this Mike and totally agree re: set-up. It is one cart you certainly cant cut corners with. I always hate when I've got it singing and then have to mess about with things for upgrade work or something cause finding the sweetspot again is bloody long and painful. I'm currently in that position at the mo after fitting the Mike New baseplate which raised the platter 6mm. I'm waiting for a Millennium vta alignment block to arrive as part of the whole set up thing. Glad it aint just me with this one :)
P
I went from a 2M Black to an IQ3 and it was the right move for me.
Reasons ?
1/ The 2M is just a bit too hi-fi for me, whereas the IQ3 has all the hi-fi attributes of the Black (detail openness, resolution etc) to a similar level, it just seems to sound a bit more believable / add a bit more naturalness to the mix.
2/ Set-up. The Black is a complete swine to set up. Once it is totally and stupidly accurately dialled in, it is absolutely wonderful sounding but every time I swapped cart (for me, it's just swapping headshells) the Black needed EVERYTHING completely resetting to get the best out of it. I started obsessing about the set up rather than listening to the music. Both the IQ3 and the IQ2 (my everyday cart) just need a reasonably competent set up to sound on top form, not a laser / theodolite / atomic GPS routine.
If it wasn't for the set up, I never would have moved on the Black but then I never would have bought the IQ3 ............................................
This is :exactly: correct IME.
The 2m black can be a bit "hifi", a little analytical, but correctly loaded, it can be balanced out so that the sound remains detailed without being fatiguing. Move to Zyx R50 and that opens up a whole new world of "musical" though. Has the authority of the 2M Black but is less hifi and (imho) more enjoyable. I still rate it as the reference cart at or near the price. MC though so will need an SUT or head amp which is the downside if you currently only have an MM phono stage.
Idlewithnodrive
28-01-2015, 20:08
The 2m black can be a bit "hifi", a little analytical, but correctly loaded, it can be balanced out so that the sound remains detailed without being fatiguing. Move to Zyx R50 and that opens up a whole new world of "musical" though. Has the authority of the 2M Black but is less hifi and (imho) more enjoyable. I still rate it as the reference cart at or near the price. MC though so will need an SUT or head amp which is the downside if you currently only have an MM phono stage.
Really don't want to go the MC and matching of SUT's etc route.
The IQ3 and in fact 2, which I also highly rate are about as 'high end' as I need to go with my modest deck. Completely happy where I am :)
walpurgis
28-01-2015, 20:25
The 2m black can be a bit "hifi", a little analytical, but correctly loaded, it can be balanced out so that the sound remains detailed without being fatiguing. Move to Zyx R50 and that opens up a whole new world of "musical" though. Has the authority of the 2M Black but is less hifi and (imho) more enjoyable. I still rate it as the reference cart at or near the price. MC though so will need an SUT or head amp which is the downside if you currently only have an MM phono stage.
He's right you know. Until you've heard it you just won't know how good it sounds.
RobbieGong
28-01-2015, 21:30
The 2m black can be a bit "hifi", a little analytical, but correctly loaded, it can be balanced out so that the sound remains detailed without being fatiguing. Move to Zyx R50 and that opens up a whole new world of "musical" though. Has the authority of the 2M Black but is less hifi and (imho) more enjoyable. I still rate it as the reference cart at or near the price. MC though so will need an SUT or head amp which is the downside if you currently only have an MM phono stage.
Yes, I've heard very good things about the R50. With regards the Black, IME once set up with care, time and proper attention, I have never found it to be particularly hifi or analytical and most definitely never fatiguing. To the contrary, every time time I've had it set right and found the sweet spot it has been just beautiful in every way really - timbre / texture of instruments, separation of parts, you name it. The last time in fact was the best I have ever heard my Techie / modest system sound, it was a revelation. The reason I say that is because it took me into each track like I had never heard before, right to the heart of the recording. It was probably the first time I heard the Black at it's absolute best and that was because I'd really got to setting it up carefully. The revelation was that each album sounded individual, I could hear the difference in the recordings no two albums sounded the same and why should / would they, think about it ... (No two recording studios are the same). It doesn't gloss over, it's presentation to make everything sound nicely the same. It isnt fruity, ripe or any of the other things I've read about certain carts that some people like. It is far more honest / accurate / natural / real then IMO. It is a genuine, quality music player. Although I'd always liked the Black it was the last time I'd truly got set up spot on that I really really knew how good it is coupled with the importance of careful and accurate set up because when you do it is most definitely worth it. You'll get the reward / sweet payback. ;)
Idlewithnodrive
29-01-2015, 21:12
I agree that it's a cracking cart Mr Gong, when set up absolutely spot on +/- 0.
The IQ3 is just as good (if not better) with about 1/10th the hassle :)
RobbieGong
29-01-2015, 22:11
I agree that it's a cracking cart Mr Gong, when set up absolutely spot on +/- 0.
The IQ3 is just as good (if not better) with about 1/10th the hassle :)
I hear ya Mike and totally respect that as you've had and heard the Black on song. These things are obviously subjective as I've read a fair bit about the 2M Black / IQ3 and as is with these things, where some have preferred the IQ3 others have preferred the Black :) Your comments and as expressed re: the Black and whole set up thing did make me chuckle cause I related totally to all of it - brilliant ! :lol:
ChrisKemp
31-03-2015, 07:38
I had the 2M Black for 6 months. Loved it! Tried the Quintet Black and liked the 2M Black better (tighter bass). Then I took another route: London Decca Super Gold! Another league and I would pay a great deal more to get a MC to play music like my Decca. :eyebrows:
RobbieGong
31-03-2015, 13:43
I had the 2M Black for 6 months. Loved it! Tried the Quintet Black and liked the 2M Black better (tighter bass). Then I took another route: London Decca Super Gold! Another league and I would pay a great deal more to get a MC to play music like my Decca. :eyebrows:
Nice one Chris - Decca Super Gold sounds like a corker :) Btw - what does a beauty like that cost (sorry if I've missed earlier in the thread)
walpurgis
31-03-2015, 14:46
I would pay a great deal more to get a MC to play music like my Decca. :eyebrows:
I used various Deccas for years as well as using many MCs. I have a selection of ZYX MC cartridges now (amongst others) and the ZYX R100 H2 has great similarities to the Deccas. No shortage of impact, speed and detail, that's for sure.
hifi_dave
31-03-2015, 14:46
London/Decca retails at £827.
walpurgis
31-03-2015, 14:48
London/Decca retails at £827.
Well what do you know? The ZYX R100 H2 is £820.
doom2112
07-04-2015, 20:57
Buy a Dynavector 20X2 load it around 100 Ohm
Or a benz Ace L loaded over 470 ohm ,i cant hear the difference between 470 to 1000 ohm.
But dont go under 470.
Another very good cheaper value Cartridge is Denon DL-301 loaded 470-1000 ohm.
the denon DL-301 is a better cartridge than the DL-103 that many uses,better stylus and better tracking and about the same caracter in sound.
All these are perfect with REGA or audiomods arms,you cany fail.
I have not had the 2M black but AT-150 and it´s the closest one to 2M Black says some rewievers
You will never go back to MM.
Trust me.
The Barbarian
07-04-2015, 21:14
I never realised those 2M would suit a low mass arm looking at the spec.. :hmm:
walpurgis
07-04-2015, 21:22
You will never go back to MM.
Trust me.
I still do go back to MM (well, induced magnet to be exact). I enjoy using my ADC cartridges when it suits me.
ChrisKemp
12-04-2015, 22:38
If your 2M Black sounded too hifi or analythical, I would say something was not right. The 2M Bronze can be a little too hifi, but not the shibata Black. It's much more refined, varmer but detailed and much more dynamic. I loved mine. My upgrade from the 2M Black?.....
I bought a London Decca Super Gold with DeccaPod from Divine Audio. And everything got better! And the dynamics! O boy! To be dynamic a cartridge must be able to play the silent parts with insight and depth. Only then can a cart show true dynamics! Get a London Decca! You will never miss a MC:cool:
If your 2M Black sounded too hifi or analythical, I would say something was not right. The 2M Bronze can be a little too hifi, but not the shibata Black. It's much more refined, varmer but detailed and much more dynamic. I loved mine. My upgrade from the 2M Black?.....
I bought a London Decca Super Gold with DeccaPod from Divine Audio. And everything got better! And the dynamics! O boy! To be dynamic a cartridge must be able to play the silent parts with insight and depth. Only then can a cart show true dynamics! Get a London Decca! You will never miss a MC:cool:
Got a feeling this will be my next cartridge Chris. I have owned and heard Decca's and there is nothing like them for dynamics and overall sonic impact.
I may not get a Decca London Gold but do have a grey lined up.
Re-reading this thread, I realise that a very basic point has been missed. The old advice about 'turntable, then arm , then cartridge' seems to me true. A good, but cheap, cartridge on a better deck/arm will comfortably outperform a more expensive cartridge on a less able deck.
So, the most sensible long-term path is probably to buy a better deck and arm, keeping the Ortofon. I've heard cheap cartridges sound stunning on good decks, but expensive cartridges on cheaper decks do not sound stunning. They often underperform. That was something Linn did get right, all those years ago.
ChrisKemp
13-04-2015, 15:47
That is so true! The other day I tested my old AT95E on my current set up. I haven't heard it in over a year and before I made all the upgrades. The 1210 was standard and budget Riaa from MF. Hearing the cheap AT95E in my current setup was stunning!!! So yes, get as good as TT+phono stage before thinking upgrading 2M Black. Because that cart is truly magical:)
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