View Full Version : My Technics SL-1210Mk2 journey - advice needed . . .
Hi All,
I'm new to this forum, and joined due to the obvious weath of Technics knowledge available here.
Being a child of the digital generation (despite growing up listening to my parents playing Carpenters LP's and other 60's and 70's records) I have only ever had digital sources. Until recently when a friend lent me one of his Technics SL-1210Mk2 turntables.
I have been blown away by the sound quality, and the organic sound it produces - so I bought the deck off him, and have been contently listening to it for several months. It has been my plan to buy a new deck, such as a Brinkmann Bardo or Oasis, until I discovered all the modifications that can be completed on the Technics (courtesy of this forum), to bring its performance up to a similar or even better level of performance than those TT's.
I have therefore decided to go all out and modify my Technics as far as possible. So far I have decided to go for the following options:
- Mike New Bearing and Plate
- Mike New ETP Platter
- Paul Hynes SR7EHD-21/27 PSU
- Paul Hynes voltage regulator mods and internal silver wiring
- Acoustand plinth with Isonoe feet and shoes
- Output cable rewire
- Removal of pitch control
- Removal/disabling of strobe circuit
- Replacement of LED's (aesthetics only)
- Respray of top cover + general tarting up of all buttons etc (aesthetics only)
- Tonearm - I want to try and keep the original Tonearm, to at least have a few elements faithful to the original design, so I intend to add internal and external damping and rewire either with Cardas or with some bespoke silver/gold cabling.
- Headshell - this will of course depend on the cart, but I will get an upgraded headshell to suit
So, there are a few queries I need some help with:
1. Perhaps most importantly, what cart should I go for? I'm happy to spend up to around £1,500 on a good cart and headshell. I have a preference for a clearly etched and detailed presentation, I don't like a soft, honey coloured presentation that I know many people prefer their analogue to sound. However I want to maximise soundstage size as much as possible.
Carts I have considered so far are:
- Ortofon: SPU Royal GM Mk2' or SPU Silver Meister GM Mk2' or possibly (slightly lower in price) 2M Black
- Audio Technica AT50ANV
- Lyra Kleos
I'd welcome any suggestions in that sort of price range (or indeed performance range - I know price isn't always an indicator!)
2. Regarding the respray I will be having done on the top cover, I want to be able to add the Technics lettering back in afterwards. I have seen that there are stickers and plates available on eBay, but I really wanted the lettering straight onto the paintwork. As I understand it, that leaves silk screening or tampon stamping (stop sniggering!) as available options. Does anyone have any contacts for places that can do this on one off items?
3. Regarding the tonearm. I have read that the stock arm is pretty decent as is, and that adding additional damping and rewire with high quality cabling will take its performance up even higher. That said, will I be holding performance back by going this route, is there really a noticeable difference in replacing such a modified arm with a stock arm from another manufacturer?
4. Finally, have I missed anything obvious on the modding side? Please feel free to offer any other advice or suggestions.
Many thanks in advance.
RobbieGong
29-10-2014, 14:38
Hi All,
I'm new to this forum, and joined due to the obvious weath of Technics knowledge available here.
Being a child of the digital generation (despite growing up listening to my parents playing Carpenters LP's and other 60's and 70's records) I have only ever had digital sources. Until recently when a friend lent me one of his Technics SL-1210Mk2 turntables.
I have been blown away by the sound quality, and the organic sound it produces - so I bought the deck off him, and have been contently listening to it for several months. It has been my plan to buy a new deck, such as a Brinkmann Bardo or Oasis, until I discovered all the modifications that can be completed on the Technics (courtesy of this forum), to bring its performance up to a similar or even better level of performance than those TT's.
I have therefore decided to go all out and modify my Technics as far as possible. So far I have decided to go for the following options:
- Mike New Bearing and Plate
- Mike New ETP Platter
- Paul Hynes SR7EHD-21/27 PSU
- Paul Hynes voltage regulator mods and internal silver wiring
- Acoustand plinth with Isonoe feet and shoes
- Output cable rewire
- Removal of pitch control
- Removal/disabling of strobe circuit
- Replacement of LED's (aesthetics only)
- Respray of top cover + general tarting up of all buttons etc (aesthetics only)
- Tonearm - I want to try and keep the original Tonearm, to at least have a few elements faithful to the original design, so I intend to add internal and external damping and rewire either with Cardas or with some bespoke silver/gold cabling.
- Headshell - this will of course depend on the cart, but I will get an upgraded headshell to suit
So, there are a few queries I need some help with:
1. Perhaps most importantly, what cart should I go for? I'm happy to spend up to around £1,500 on a good cart and headshell. I have a preference for a clearly etched and detailed presentation, I don't like a soft, honey coloured presentation that I know many people prefer their analogue to sound. However I want to maximise soundstage size as much as possible.
Carts I have considered so far are:
- Ortofon: SPU Royal GM Mk2' or SPU Silver Meister GM Mk2' or possibly (slightly lower in price) 2M Black
- Audio Technica AT50ANV
- Lyra Kleos
I'd welcome any suggestions in that sort of price range (or indeed performance range - I know price isn't always an indicator!)
2. Regarding the respray I will be having done on the top cover, I want to be able to add the Technics lettering back in afterwards. I have seen that there are stickers and plates available on eBay, but I really wanted the lettering straight onto the paintwork. As I understand it, that leaves silk screening or tampon stamping (stop sniggering!) as available options. Does anyone have any contacts for places that can do this on one off items?
3. Regarding the tonearm. I have read that the stock arm is pretty decent as is, and that adding additional damping and rewire with high quality cabling will take its performance up even higher. That said, will I be holding performance back by going this route, is there really a noticeable difference in replacing such a modified arm with a stock arm from another manufacturer?
4. Finally, have I missed anything obvious on the modding side? Please feel free to offer any other advice or suggestions.
Many thanks in advance.
Nice one Gareth !! By your list you clearly mean business. Personally, I would recommend that you do actually look at upgrading the arm to balance the other 'proper' upgrades you've decided to undertake ie: MN bearing, base plate, MN ETP platter, SR7 psu and regulation mods - these alone will equote to serious elevation. Keeping the stock arm after all this will hold things back a bit which doesnt make sense to me. I have the MN bearing, (bearing base plate awaiting install when i get a few hours), MN ETP platter, very nice external psu etc etc. I had the stock arm with fluid damper and resonance capat the end of the arm. It was fine but upgrade to a Micro Seiki arm took things to another level for sure. With the level of upgrades you are going for a better arm has to be included in my opinion and experience. With regard to cart - A deck like what you are looking to put together deserves something like the Ortofon Cadenza Black (arm permitting), it's the one I'd definately have if funds permitted. You're £1500 might just do it if you shop around). All the best Gareth and please keep us posted with regular progress and piccies, which we love here. :)
Many thanks for your reply Robbie. Can I ask why you recommend the Cadenza Black above any of the others I have listed?
If I was to replace the arm, what would be a good shortlist to consider?
MikeMusic
29-10-2014, 15:38
Some serious modding there !
I think you want to change the original arm
I don't know for sure but assume it will let the package down
Next step up could be a Jelco, but you can spend a lot more without wasting your money as you would have so much going on from the rest of the upgrades
Wakefield Turntables
29-10-2014, 18:49
Hi All,
I'm new to this forum, and joined due to the obvious weath of Technics knowledge available here.
Being a child of the digital generation (despite growing up listening to my parents playing Carpenters LP's and other 60's and 70's records) I have only ever had digital sources. Until recently when a friend lent me one of his Technics SL-1210Mk2 turntables.
I have been blown away by the sound quality, and the organic sound it produces - so I bought the deck off him, and have been contently listening to it for several months. It has been my plan to buy a new deck, such as a Brinkmann Bardo or Oasis, until I discovered all the modifications that can be completed on the Technics (courtesy of this forum), to bring its performance up to a similar or even better level of performance than those TT's.
I have therefore decided to go all out and modify my Technics as far as possible. So far I have decided to go for the following options:
- Mike New Bearing and Plate
- Mike New ETP Platter
- Paul Hynes SR7EHD-21/27 PSU
- Paul Hynes voltage regulator mods and internal silver wiring
- Acoustand plinth with Isonoe feet and shoes
- Output cable rewire
- Removal of pitch control
- Removal/disabling of strobe circuit
- Replacement of LED's (aesthetics only)
- Respray of top cover + general tarting up of all buttons etc (aesthetics only)
- Tonearm - I want to try and keep the original Tonearm, to at least have a few elements faithful to the original design, so I intend to add internal and external damping and rewire either with Cardas or with some bespoke silver/gold cabling.
- Headshell - this will of course depend on the cart, but I will get an upgraded headshell to suit
So, there are a few queries I need some help with:
1. Perhaps most importantly, what cart should I go for? I'm happy to spend up to around £1,500 on a good cart and headshell. I have a preference for a clearly etched and detailed presentation, I don't like a soft, honey coloured presentation that I know many people prefer their analogue to sound. However I want to maximise soundstage size as much as possible.
Carts I have considered so far are:
- Ortofon: SPU Royal GM Mk2' or SPU Silver Meister GM Mk2' or possibly (slightly lower in price) 2M Black
- Audio Technica AT50ANV
- Lyra Kleos
I'd welcome any suggestions in that sort of price range (or indeed performance range - I know price isn't always an indicator!)
2. Regarding the respray I will be having done on the top cover, I want to be able to add the Technics lettering back in afterwards. I have seen that there are stickers and plates available on eBay, but I really wanted the lettering straight onto the paintwork. As I understand it, that leaves silk screening or tampon stamping (stop sniggering!) as available options. Does anyone have any contacts for places that can do this on one off items?
3. Regarding the tonearm. I have read that the stock arm is pretty decent as is, and that adding additional damping and rewire with high quality cabling will take its performance up even higher. That said, will I be holding performance back by going this route, is there really a noticeable difference in replacing such a modified arm with a stock arm from another manufacturer?
4. Finally, have I missed anything obvious on the modding side? Please feel free to offer any other advice or suggestions.
Many thanks in advance.
Gareth,
You have pretty much listed all the mods I've ever done on my 1210. BUT! I would also recommend the following :-
1. Completely get rid of the pitch slider PCB and fill in the hole on the top plinth.
2. Get rid of the stock tonearm with one of your choice.
3. If your after a Cadenza black I would counsel a ortofon V.
4. If your getting a V get yourself a ebony armboard.
5. Get yourself a Yannis tonearm cable. It beats anything else on the market IMHO.
6. You can remove the power on/off switch if you like.
7. Recap the PCB + remove any components of the PCB
8. Install a sorbothane cradle into the bearing pit to house your MN bearing
9. You can sit your 1210 of sorbothane pads if you like (you dont need to buy expensive footers)
10. If you get the paul hynes PSU, why dont you make a DIY pure silver power lead?
I could go on & on & on!!
Andy
After spending all that money, it would be a shame not to put a decent arm on it.
It's one of the biggest changes you can make as far as sound quality goes.
Thanks MikeMusic and CageyH - it seems the concenus then is that the stock arm has got to go, thanks for the recommendation.
Gareth,
You have pretty much listed all the mods I've ever done on my 1210. BUT! I would also recommend the following :-
Many thanks for such a detailed reply Andy - I'll answer each point separately if that is okay, so I don't lose track:
1. Completely get rid of the pitch slider PCB and fill in the hole on the top plinth.
Yes, sorry that was my plan, I am going to remove it completely and then plate over the hole, and then get it filled and sanded smooth so it's invisible once painted.
2. Get rid of the stock tonearm with one of your choice.
Another vote for a new tonearm then - what would you suggest?
3. If your after a Cadenza black I would counsel a ortofon V.
No, I'm still not decided on a cartridge, there haven't been many suggestions yet, or comments on those I listed, so I want to gather a few opinions and suggested alternatives before I decide.
4. If your getting a V get yourself a ebony armboard.
Why ebony in particular, does this have advantages over, say, aluminium?
5. Get yourself a Yannis tonearm cable. It beats anything else on the market IMHO.
Thanks, I'll look into that. Does that just apply if I kept the stock tone arm, or for any new tone arm also?
6. You can remove the power on/off switch if you like.
I'd prefer to keep that as I intend to keep the LED's and don't want them running all the time.
7. Recap the PCB + remove any components of the PCB
Yes, I forgot to mention that, the board will be recapped with low ESR caps when the regs etc are fitted.
8. Install a sorbothane cradle into the bearing pit to house your MN bearing
Interesting - what does that mod bring to the party? Do you have any more details on it?
9. You can sit your 1210 of sorbothane pads if you like (you dont need to buy expensive footers)
I am having a full plinth made for the deck, and the deck will sit on large sorbo pods inside, the plinth itself will then have Isonoe feet. I want to add them, as I think I will need the suspension they'll provide.
10. If you get the paul hynes PSU, why dont you make a DIY pure silver power lead?
I do tend to make all my own cables, so I may make one up, though it'll more likely by silver plated OFC.
I could go on & on & on!!
Andy
Please do Andy, this is great stuff so far, so if there is anything else please let me know.
I could also do with some more feedback on the cart and arms possibilities from anyone willing!
Thanks,
Gareth
Wakefield Turntables
29-10-2014, 20:35
Many thanks for such a detailed reply Andy - I'll answer each point separately if that is okay, so I don't lose track:
Yes, sorry that was my plan, I am going to remove it completely and then plate over the hole, and then get it filled and sanded smooth so it's invisible once painted.
Another vote for a new tonearm then - what would you suggest?
No, I'm still not decided on a cartridge, there haven't been many suggestions yet, or comments on those I listed, so I want to gather a few opinions and suggested alternatives before I decide.
Why ebony in particular, does this have advantages over, say, aluminium?
Thanks, I'll look into that. Does that just apply if I kept the stock tone arm, or for any new tone arm also?
I'd prefer to keep that as I intend to keep the LED's and don't want them running all the time.
Yes, I forgot to mention that, the board will be recapped with low ESR caps when the regs etc are fitted.
Interesting - what does that mod bring to the party? Do you have any more details on it?
I am having a full plinth made for the deck, and the deck will sit on large sorbo pods inside, the plinth itself will then have Isonoe feet. I want to add them, as I think I will need the suspension they'll provide.
I do tend to make all my own cables, so I may make one up, though it'll more likely by silver plated OFC.
Please do Andy, this is great stuff so far, so if there is anything else please let me know.
I could also do with some more feedback on the cart and arms possibilities from anyone willing!
Thanks,
Gareth
OK, just some thoughts regards your tonearm.
I've done the stock tonearm and REGA's and then SME's and that is where I stopped. I love the SME V, some think it sounds limp and too dampened. I think if you get a decent cart like the Cadenza Black and a decent arm like the V you cant go wrong. A lot of people like JELCO's. You will need an arm with a detatchable headshell If you want to try a SPU (I have one on my Garrard 301) but if you get the V you dont have to piss around worrying about them ;) If you get the V, send it to Johnie 7 at audio origami and try a silver re-wire and also try silver cartridge tags. I've tried Audio technica's on my 1210 and didnt like them. I've had several high end Ortofons on mine and loved them all.
A note about tonearm boards. I've had stock arm boards, aluminium, copper and then ebony. Here is my review of what I found.
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?33808-REXTON-S-1210-Ebony-Armboard-Review-Enjoy!&highlight=ebony+armboard
With regards tonearm cables. You need to speak to Yannis at backbeat promotions. He will give you VERY VERY detailed answers to any questions you might have.
The sorbotrhane cradle (I only managed a 2mm) allows the weight of the PCB and Bearing to sit on the sorbothane and absorb any vibrations going up through the shaft of the bearing. Finally you could buy some car audio dampening material and try this on the underside of the plinth.
PS Forgot to mention, you might want to consider a SUT if you go down the SPU / hi-end ortofon MC cart.
Hi there and welcome
I will try to cover different points from the others but must agree regarding the arm: I agree with having an arm that is in keeping looks-wise with your TT and thereby wanting to keep the original arm. However you can have your cake and eat it too! SME M2-9 would fit the bill nicely. Or the Jelco 750D - Do not be put off by its low price. It is used not only used by many forum members, but also Feikert, Luxman, and Electrocompaniet on current turntables. Micro Seiki: In my humble opinion theirs are the best looking arms and there is thread here somewhere with a build.
Have you already purchased your TT? If not then the one to go for is an SL 12105G.
Cartridge: not really my area of expertise but I would suggest considering the phono stage at the same time as they need to work together.
Finally one of the things we like on this forum, especially the Techiepedia are pics - so don't be shy.
Clive197
29-10-2014, 22:57
I'm in the change the arm group and I think you see the point. Which arm will dictate which cartridge. There are lots of both out there and I obviously have my favourite (see my signature and also my avatar)
The thing that worries me with all the changes and mods you want to make is doing these all at once negates what each upgrade is doing for you. Not all the changes will be as effective as others. I do not inclued aesthetics. That is totally down to your taste.
My suggestion is simple. Do the changes one at a time and over weeks/months so you can hear which way to go next to get the sound ( and looks ) to your liking. Slowly, slowly catchy monkey.
That is what I have been doing for the last 16 months and I think I've enjoyed and appreciated the journey as well the results.
Wakefield Turntables
29-10-2014, 23:43
Do the changes one at a time and over weeks/months so you can hear which way to go next to get the sound ( and looks ) to your liking. Slowly, slowly catchy monkey.
That is what I have been doing for the last 16 months and I think I've enjoyed and appreciated the journey as well the results.
+1 !
MikeMusic
30-10-2014, 09:28
Agreed with Clive. Incremental change is good
I started with a semi modded Technics, main mods, MCRU PSU and Jelco arm
Compared to my then current LP12 it fell short
After putting in
MN bearing, Funk Firm platter, Acromat, Ortofon SPU
it sounded better than the LP12
Improved further with Yannis interconnects
Massive improvement with Ortofon SUT and Whest .30r, - also usable on the LP12 of course
Further improvements with a MN platter
Isonoe feet and Techniboots
'Course as with all things a lot of the above were upgraded and now need to be sold !
:)
I'm calming down now on the upgrades though
OK, just some thoughts regards your tonearm.
I've done the stock tonearm and REGA's and then SME's and that is where I stopped. I love the SME V, some think it sounds limp and too dampened. I think if you get a decent cart like the Cadenza Black and a decent arm like the V you cant go wrong. A lot of people like JELCO's. You will need an arm with a detatchable headshell If you want to try a SPU (I have one on my Garrard 301) but if you get the V you dont have to piss around worrying about them ;) If you get the V, send it to Johnie 7 at audio origami and try a silver re-wire and also try silver cartridge tags. I've tried Audio technica's on my 1210 and didnt like them. I've had several high end Ortofons on mine and loved them all.
A note about tonearm boards. I've had stock arm boards, aluminium, copper and then ebony. Here is my review of what I found.
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?33808-REXTON-S-1210-Ebony-Armboard-Review-Enjoy!&highlight=ebony+armboard
With regards tonearm cables. You need to speak to Yannis at backbeat promotions. He will give you VERY VERY detailed answers to any questions you might have.
The sorbotrhane cradle (I only managed a 2mm) allows the weight of the PCB and Bearing to sit on the sorbothane and absorb any vibrations going up through the shaft of the bearing. Finally you could buy some car audio dampening material and try this on the underside of the plinth.
PS Forgot to mention, you might want to consider a SUT if you go down the SPU / hi-end ortofon MC cart.
Thanks for coming back to me Andy. A lot to think about here.
I'll look into the ebony arm board.
On the sorbothane cradle, do you have some pics of how you installed this, or is it pretty obvious (I haven't taken the deck apart yet). Does it go underneath the Mike New bearing plate?
On the tonearm, thanks for the suggestions - I had looked at the SME, but to be honest I did actually want an arm with a detachable head shell to make it easier to do cartridge comparisons in the future.
You'll have to excuse my ignorance here (i'm new to vinyl), but what exactly does the SUT do? How does it improve sound quality versus going straight into the phonostage?
Hi there and welcome
I will try to cover different points from the others but must agree regarding the arm: I agree with having an arm that is in keeping looks-wise with your TT and thereby wanting to keep the original arm. However you can have your cake and eat it too! SME M2-9 would fit the bill nicely. Or the Jelco 750D - Do not be put off by its low price. It is used not only used by many forum members, but also Feikert, Luxman, and Electrocompaniet on current turntables. Micro Seiki: In my humble opinion theirs are the best looking arms and there is thread here somewhere with a build.
Have you already purchased your TT? If not then the one to go for is an SL 12105G.
Cartridge: not really my area of expertise but I would suggest considering the phono stage at the same time as they need to work together.
Finally one of the things we like on this forum, especially the Techiepedia are pics - so don't be shy.
Many thanks for the reply Andrei. The SME-M2-9 looks like a nice arm, I like the fact that it has a removable head shell.. How does its SQ compare to the V model that Andy suggested?
Micro Seiki is not a name I have come across before - a quick Google doesn't seem to produce much - is the company that makes them still operating, or is this a vintage part?
I already have the TT, a 1210Mk2. I bought it off a friend, and although he was/is a bit of a bedroom DJ, its not had a massive amount of use, and has been very well looked after.
As for pics, yes, I intend to keep this thread updated as I progress.
I'm in the change the arm group and I think you see the point. Which arm will dictate which cartridge. There are lots of both out there and I obviously have my favourite (see my signature and also my avatar)
The thing that worries me with all the changes and mods you want to make is doing these all at once negates what each upgrade is doing for you. Not all the changes will be as effective as others. I do not inclued aesthetics. That is totally down to your taste.
My suggestion is simple. Do the changes one at a time and over weeks/months so you can hear which way to go next to get the sound ( and looks ) to your liking. Slowly, slowly catchy monkey.
That is what I have been doing for the last 16 months and I think I've enjoyed and appreciated the journey as well the results.
Many thanks for your reply Clive.
I have looked at the Origin Live tonearms, and they do look well made. Did you try any other tonearms before settling on the Encounter, and if so, what made you choose the Encounter over the other options?
I see you are another Ortofon Cadenza Black owner - same questions again, what made you go with that cart in particular?
I know what you are saying re the speed of upgrading, but to be honest I just want to get it all done, and sit back and enjoy it without having to think about whether I need to upgrade this or that (with the possible exception of carts), knowing that I have done everything I can to optimise the deck. I will then, hopefully, have a very high benchmark with which to compare to other decks in the future.
Agreed with Clive. Incremental change is good
I started with a semi modded Technics, main mods, MCRU PSU and Jelco arm
Compared to my then current LP12 it fell short
After putting in
MN bearing, Funk Firm platter, Acromat, Ortofon SPU
it sounded better than the LP12
Improved further with Yannis interconnects
Massive improvement with Ortofon SUT and Whest .30r, - also usable on the LP12 of course
Further improvements with a MN platter
Isonoe feet and Techniboots
'Course as with all things a lot of the above were upgraded and now need to be sold !
:)
I'm calming down now on the upgrades though
Thanks for the post Mike.
As you point ouot, you've upgraded a few times - that is partly my reason for doing everything at once,to get it done and dusted and stick with it (carts aside perhaps).
I see the Yannis cables are well thought of here then - first time I've come across them, and they look very made from their website, and not horrendously expensive for pure silver, I will look into them more.
I see you are an Ortofon SPU and SUT user, what made you go for that cart over a 2M or Cadenza? And what did the SUT add to the SQ of your system?
So on the tonearms, given that I would like a detachable head shell to allow for easier cartridge comparisons, the current shortlist is looking like:
SME M2-9
Origin Live (not sure which model)
Ortofon (possible TA-110 or one of the recently discontinued arms - RS-212D?)
I'm assuming in all this that tonearm lengths greater than 9" (such as a 12") cannot be used on the SL-1210?
On the Cartridges, it seems that most people opt for Ortofon of one type or another - there's no real mention of any other brands?
MikeMusic
30-10-2014, 14:01
Thanks for the post Mike.
As you point ouot, you've upgraded a few times - that is partly my reason for doing everything at once,to get it done and dusted and stick with it (carts aside perhaps).
I see the Yannis cables are well thought of here then - first time I've come across them, and they look very made from their website, and not horrendously expensive for pure silver, I will look into them more.
I see you are an Ortofon SPU and SUT user, what made you go for that cart over a 2M or Cadenza? And what did the SUT add to the SQ of your system?
I did a lot in one session, but listened each time to check what I was getting.
Once you have finished you may find, like me that you are not finished, are we ever ?
:)
What is delivered in sound quality in Yannis' cables is way, way more than the price.
You can pay more for other cables and get less
On the SPU, like you I was getting impatient.
I heard Marco's and was impressed. Talking to Marco later he was thinking of upgrading so I bought it !
The Ortofon SUT I took to match the SPU and was staggered at the improvement, the Whest also helped a lot.
I had heard similar and had identified the SUT and Phono Pre as vital big steps up in my then system - they were.
'Course I then heard the much more expensive VIDA and now have both the SUT and Whest to sell !
The way I have upgraded hasn't been completely scientific.
Some kit bought unheard, some heard in other systems or on recommendation
Now a few quid spent later the system sounds just fantastic.
Enjoyment levels off the scale I was used to.
If you think about a Jelco I have one of them to sell as well
(Not been good selling kit and I really need to get my finger out)
Clive197
30-10-2014, 14:32
Many thanks for your reply Clive.
I have looked at the Origin Live tonearms, and they do look well made. Did you try any other tonearms before settling on the Encounter, and if so, what made you choose the Encounter over the other options?
I see you are another Ortofon Cadenza Black owner - same questions again, what made you go with that cart in particular?
I know what you are saying re the speed of upgrading, but to be honest I just want to get it all done, and sit back and enjoy it without having to think about whether I need to upgrade this or that (with the possible exception of carts), knowing that I have done everything I can to optimise the deck. I will then, hopefully, have a very high benchmark with which to compare to other decks in the future.
Hi
Being an audiophile for the last 44 years I have owned many TT's and seperate arms by SME, Linn and now Origin Live. When I purchased my SL1210M5G to replace a Linn LP12/Ittok MkIII in June last year I also bought the Origin Live Silver Mk3 and Origin Live armboard at the same time. The Encounter was bought from a fellow forum member about 2 months ago after reading a few reviews regarding the Dual Pivot system that OL use. Great arm but as on all OL arms the head shells are not interchangeable. That does not present me with a problem as I find it very easy to swop-out a cartridge.
As for cartridges, I have owned models by Audio Technica, Shure, ADC, Philips, Denon, Linn and Ortofon. I have always prefered the later having gone through most of their range over the years. In the last ten years I've ran a Kontrapunct B, Cadenza Bronze, 2M Black and now the Cadenza Black which was purchased about a month ago.
Clive
I did a lot in one session, but listened each time to check what I was getting.
Once you have finished you may find, like me that you are not finished, are we ever ?
:)
What is delivered in sound quality in Yannis' cables is way, way more than the price.
You can pay more for other cables and get less
On the SPU, like you I was getting impatient.
I heard Marco's and was impressed. Talking to Marco later he was thinking of upgrading so I bought it !
The Ortofon SUT I took to match the SPU and was staggered at the improvement, the Whest also helped a lot.
I had heard similar and had identified the SUT and Phono Pre as vital big steps up in my then system - they were.
'Course I then heard the much more expensive VIDA and now have both the SUT and Whest to sell !
The way I have upgraded hasn't been completely scientific.
Some kit bought unheard, some heard in other systems or on recommendation
Now a few quid spent later the system sounds just fantastic.
Enjoyment levels off the scale I was used to.
If you think about a Jelco I have one of them to sell as well
(Not been good selling kit and I really need to get my finger out)
Thanks Mike. Is it the ST80SE SUT you are looking to sell? Why do you no longer need that with your VIDA phono?
Hi
Being an audiophile for the last 44 years I have owned many TT's and seperate arms by SME, Linn and now Origin Live. When I purchased my SL1210M5G to replace a Linn LP12/Ittok MkIII in June last year I also bought the Origin Live Silver Mk3 and Origin Live armboard at the same time. The Encounter was bought from a fellow forum member about 2 months ago after reading a few reviews regarding the Dual Pivot system that OL use. Great arm but as on all OL arms the head shells are not interchangeable. That does not present me with a problem as I find it very easy to swop-out a cartridge.
As for cartridges, I have owned models by Audio Technica, Shure, ADC, Philips, Denon, Linn and Ortofon. I have always prefered the later having gone through most of their range over the years. In the last ten years I've ran a Kontapunct B, cadenza Bronze, 2M Black and now the Cadenza Black which was purchased about a month ago.
Clive
Thanks Clive.
MikeMusic
30-10-2014, 15:10
Thanks Mike. Is it the ST80SE SUT you are looking to sell? Why do you no longer need that with your VIDA phono?
Yes.
I should try it into the VIDA before I sell, just in case (should think first and type 2nd !)
I don't think the VIDA will need it whereas other Phono Pres had the SQ improved
Yes.
I should try it into the VIDA before I sell, just in case (should think first and type 2nd !)
I don't think the VIDA will need it whereas other Phono Pres had the SQ improved
Ah, right, so its phono stage dependent?
Wakefield Turntables
30-10-2014, 16:44
Gareth,
A SUT amplifies the very low output from some of the highend carts to higher levels through the MM section of your phonostage. I wouldn't be without my SUT which is specially designed to work with the highend ortofon carts. You dont need a SUT immediately and the one I purchase cost £1K you can make your own if you have enough knowledge.
Andy
Gareth,
A SUT amplifies the very low output from some of the highend carts to higher levels through the MM section of your phonostage. I wouldn't be without my SUT which is specially designed to work with the highend ortofon carts. You dont need a SUT immediately and the one I purchase cost £1K you can make your own if you have enough knowledge.
Andy
OK, thanks Andy - out of interest, why is using the SUT and MM section of the phonostage preferable to using the MC section of the phonostage?
Wakefield Turntables
30-10-2014, 17:15
Try it and see what happens! It's not healthy for your speakers :eek:
Try it and see what happens! It's not healthy for your speakers :eek:
Ha! OK, don't quote follow what you are on about there Andy?!
To clarify; what I meant was SUT + MM stage vs just MC stage - why is the former preferable to the latter?
Ha! OK, don't quote follow what you are on about there Andy?!
To clarify; what I meant was SUT + MM stage vs just MC stage - why is the former preferable to the latter?
A MC phono stage can be thought of as two separate functions. One is to apply the RIAA correction to the signal from your LPs. The second is to amplify the signal. Actually the amplification is done first - the output from the MC cartridge being very much smaller than the output from an MM cartridge. So if you have an MC cartridge you have these options:
Put your RCA leads into the only inputs of your MC phono stage
Put your RCA leads into the MC inputs on your MC / MM phono stage
Put your RCA leads into your SUT which will run into the MM inputs on your MC / MM phono stage
Put your RCA leads into your SUT which will run into the only inputs on your MM phono stage
If you were to run an MM signal into the MC inputs of your phono stage you would get an overload, you may smell smoke, you will start swearing, and a vision will appear before your eyes: you will see hundreds of £10 notes will little wings on them and they will be flying out your window.
(Just to complicate matters if you choose to go the separates way you have the option of using a Head-Amp instead of a SUT.)
IMHO a MM cartridge (or a High Output MC) is the way to go unless you are going to get a good quality phono stage. Using an SUT is a further step again and only for those who are really fine tuning their systems. One final point; you cannot just go and purchase an SUT and expect good results - the whole thing is a bit of a Dark Art to me but there is a good essay on the subject of matching cartridges with SUTs on the vinyl-engine forum.
A MC phono stage can be thought of as two separate functions. One is to apply the RIAA correction to the signal from your LPs. The second is to amplify the signal. Actually the amplification is done first - the output from the MC cartridge being very much smaller than the output from an MM cartridge. So if you have an MC cartridge you have these options:
Put your RCA leads into the only inputs of your MC phono stage
Put your RCA leads into the MC inputs on your MC / MM phono stage
Put your RCA leads into your SUT which will run into the MM inputs on your MC / MM phono stage
Put your RCA leads into your SUT which will run into the only inputs on your MM phono stage
If you were to run an MM signal into the MC inputs of your phono stage you would get an overload, you may smell smoke, you will start swearing, and a vision will appear before your eyes: you will see hundreds of £10 notes will little wings on them and they will be flying out your window.
(Just to complicate matters if you choose to go the separates way you have the option of using a Head-Amp instead of a SUT.)
IMHO a MM cartridge (or a High Output MC) is the way to go unless you are going to get a good quality phono stage. Using an SUT is a further step again and only for those who are really fine tuning their systems. One final point; you cannot just go and purchase an SUT and expect good results - the whole thing is a bit of a Dark Art to me but there is a good essay on the subject of matching cartridges with SUTs on the vinyl-engine forum.
Thanks for the detailed reply Andrei.
Yes, I did understand that the SUT should go into the MM input, and not the MC input for the obvious reasons you mentioned (smoke and fire etc :) ).
My query was relating specific to 'why' you would use a SUT at all (i.e. MC to SUT to MM phono input), rather than just run the MC cart straight into the MC input on your phonostage? i.e. Specifically what does it add to the sound quality?
Just to clarify (I should probably put my system in my sig), I do already have a very decent phono stage, which is a separate board installed in my Levinson No.326s preamp, so an MC cart is more than likely the way I will go.
I think I'm pretty much decided (thanks to the feedback from you guys on here) that I will go with an Ortofon cart, I've just got to decide which.
Can someone give me a rough view as to the sound reproduction differences/characteristics are between, say, the Cadenze line and the SPU line?
MikeMusic
31-10-2014, 09:24
Ah, right, so its phono stage dependent?
Both the Whest and the VIDA will take direct from cartridge or via a SUT after adjustment
MikeMusic
31-10-2014, 09:27
I think I'm pretty much decided (thanks to the feedback from you guys on here) that I will go with an Ortofon cart, I've just got to decide which.
Can someone give me a rough view as to the sound reproduction differences/characteristics are between, say, the Cadenze line and the SPU line?
I found the warmth and flow of the Ortofon the attractive feature for me. Don't know the Cadnenze.
Rush2112
01-11-2014, 07:13
I am no doubt regarded on here by Technics lovers as a heretic, loony or maybe just an idiot!
I keep asking myself, but why ? Why go to all the trouble of modifying, disabling, replacing all of the deck when there are hundreds of purpose designed used SOTA hi fi turntables just waiting for hi-fi loving homes! Lost Linn's abandoned Alphason's, mistreated Michell's, not forgetting Pink Triangle''s, Origin Live's, Voyd's, Roksan's,
Townsend, Wilson Benesh, Kuzma, etc, etc etc; So guys and gals get forgoing those second hand shops and classified column's and give a turntable other than Technics a chance ! You might be surprised to find that the results are quite outstanding !
prestonchipfryer
01-11-2014, 08:28
I am no doubt regarded on here by Technics lovers as a heretic, loony or maybe just an idiot!
I keep asking myself, but why ? Why go to all the trouble of modifying, disabling, replacing all of the deck when there are hundreds of purpose designed used SOTA hi fi turntables just waiting for hi-fi loving homes! Lost Linn's abandoned Alphason's, mistreated Michell's, not forgetting Pink Triangle''s, Origin Live's, Voyd's, Roksan's,
Townsend, Wilson Benesh, Kuzma, etc, etc etc; So guys and gals get forgoing those second hand shops and classified column's and give a turntable other than Technics a chance ! You might be surprised to find that the results are quite outstanding !
Direct drive done properly and not a rubber band drive. ;) And I had a Linn LP12 and I'm glad that I lost it. Also had Rega TTs, and Michell TTs in my time. For me the modded Technics is the best for me! And haven't you ever wondered what improvements could me made to the TT you have? And why do so many companies selling turntables offer upgrades for their rubber band delights. And so on and so on . . . . . !
So guys and gals get forgoing those second hand shops and classified column's and give a turntable other than Technics a chance ! You might be surprised to find that the results are quite outstanding !
Mark I think one thing you are forgetting is that a lot of us using Technics decks have had numerous other decks in the past and have gravitated to the Technics from them. It's not like it is the only deck we have ever heard. And that's not to say that there are other direct drive decks that are as good or even better, but they don't have all the upgrade options that the Technics has.
Question: If I had bought a Linn Lp12 circa 1987 and since then had bought all of the upgrades Linn have issued, how much of the original deck would I still have left now?
…and how much would you have spent, during that upgrade process, in comparison with the cost of building a lightly-modded Techy? ;)
Marco.
!
I keep asking myself, but why ? Why go to all the trouble of modifying, disabling, replacing all of the deck when there are hundreds of purpose designed used SOTA hi fi turntables just waiting for hi-fi loving homes! !
This is the big misapprehension when it comes to the Technics SL1200. That it is not designed to be a hi-fidelity turntable. I don't know why people think this. Is it the pitch slider control? If not I can't think what it is. In any case that control is not in the signal path so who cares? In terms of design and build quality it is miles ahead of most of the decks you mention. Everyone is familiar with how an SL1200 looks, even civilians, but they have never actually encountered one close up. The fun is asking them to lift one up and seeing the shock on their faces when they discover how heavy it is. Or playing a record on one for someone who has just moments before earnestly told you 'The SL1200 isn't a proper hi-fi deck' and then have them walk down the room in astonishment to check that you are not having them on that it is an SL1200 they are hearing. And mine only has the mat and headshell changed from stock.
Wakefield Turntables
01-11-2014, 10:36
I am no doubt regarded on here by Technics lovers as a heretic, loony or maybe just an idiot!
I keep asking myself, but why ? Why go to all the trouble of modifying, disabling, replacing all of the deck when there are hundreds of purpose designed used SOTA hi fi turntables just waiting for hi-fi loving homes! Lost Linn's abandoned Alphason's, mistreated Michell's, not forgetting Pink Triangle''s, Origin Live's, Voyd's, Roksan's,
Townsend, Wilson Benesh, Kuzma, etc, etc etc; So guys and gals get forgoing those second hand shops and classified column's and give a turntable other than Technics a chance ! You might be surprised to find that the results are quite outstanding !
Ive tried all those and found the 1210 to be the best deck.
Clive197
01-11-2014, 17:20
Dear Mark, I used to sell most of the decks you mention and had the opportunity to purchase any of the decks at a price that would give you a heart attack, I didnt, I bought a Technics from another dealer and paid his retail price. I have owned a Linn and was happy to play my vinyl on it, until I heard what the the SL1210 could bring to the party.
By all means knock the Technics if you have spent time listening to even a mildly modified one, that would be your subjective opinion but if not, stick to your rubber bands and refrain from the criticising.
Clive
I am no doubt regarded on here by Technics lovers as a heretic, loony or maybe just an idiot!
I keep asking myself, but why ? Why go to all the trouble of modifying, disabling, replacing all of the deck when there are hundreds of purpose designed used SOTA hi fi turntables just waiting for hi-fi loving homes! Lost Linn's abandoned Alphason's, mistreated Michell's, not forgetting Pink Triangle''s, Origin Live's, Voyd's, Roksan's,
Townsend, Wilson Benesh, Kuzma, etc, etc etc; So guys and gals get forgoing those second hand shops and classified column's and give a turntable other than Technics a chance ! You might be surprised to find that the results are quite outstanding !
Well, to be honest I expected at least one naysayer to add a post to my thread.
You may well have a point - perhaps I can buy an off the shelf deck with equal or superior performance to the modified Technics - user experience on here seems to suggest not though!
For my part there is a wider point to this - firstly this 1210 is my personal discovery of a vinyl source, so it now has sentimental value. The prospect of modifying it to maximise its performance is therefore something I relish.
Add to that the fact that I am a serial tweaker, and the Technics appears to provide the perfect platform for a nice little tweaking project.
Finally I am by no means at the end of my vinyl journey, quite the contrary, I'm pretty much at the start of it. The modified Technics will provide a very high, and neutrally balanced benchmark, with which to judge any future additional decks I might consider.
I am no doubt regarded on here by Technics lovers as a heretic, loony or maybe just an idiot!
I keep asking myself, but why ? Why go to all the trouble of modifying, disabling, replacing all of the deck when there are hundreds of purpose designed used SOTA hi fi turntables just waiting for hi-fi loving homes! Lost Linn's abandoned Alphason's, mistreated Michell's, not forgetting Pink Triangle''s, Origin Live's, Voyd's, Roksan's,
Townsend, Wilson Benesh, Kuzma, etc, etc etc; So guys and gals get forgoing those second hand shops and classified column's and give a turntable other than Technics a chance ! You might be surprised to find that the results are quite outstanding !
Mark, with an avatar like that you should know that putting a toe into shark-infested waters will get bitten off!
Anyway, once you are suitably chastened check out http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?34426-Show-off-your-Belter-s-you-know-you-want-to-with-prizes which shows only half the forum's members are rabid Technics lovers. :brickwall:
Wakefield Turntables
01-11-2014, 20:12
The modified Technics will provide a very high, and neutrally balanced benchmark, with which to judge any future additional decks I might consider.
Gareth,
The 1210 is a deck that will last a very very long time. I've had mine for about 5 years now and have no intention of buying anything else. I also own a Garrard 301 which I have fully restored and not tweaked anywhere near as much as the 1210. I've owned Thorens, Linn, Alphason suspended chasis rubber band decks and whilst they are ok they are not a 1210. I'd enjoy the journey with your 1210. I bet the deck lasts a lot longer than your speakers, amps, CD player etc!
MikeMusic
02-11-2014, 11:52
Can't see me changing out my Technics.
There are a lot of mods on it and they work very well.
Other systems mods have allowed even more detail through
With the amount of people doing these *serious* mods I cannot see you could do better at the price
Many thanks for all of the ongoing replies guys,much appreciated! :thumbsup:
I'm still trying to narrow down the cartridge choice somewhat. Can someone confirm for me (and sorry if this is a bit of a dumb newbie question) if the SL1210 can utilise a 12" tonearm?
If so, what are peoples thoughts on the Ortofon RS-309D Tonearm - given that I have pretty much decided on one of the higher end Ortofon carts would this represent a good synergy? I had looked at the RS-212D, but this appears to be a discontinued item on Ortofon's website for some reason?
Also, whilst it might be a bit overkill (and out of budget at their list price - but feasible if the right secondhand one came available), does anyone know if either the Kuzma 4-Point or the Graham Phantom II will fit on the Technics (with suitable custom arm board of course)?
Many thanks for all of the ongoing replies guys,much appreciated! :thumbsup:
I'm still trying to narrow down the cartridge choice somewhat. Can someone confirm for me (and sorry if this is a bit of a dumb newbie question) if the SL1210 can utilise a 12" tonearm?
If so, what are peoples thoughts on the Ortofon RS-309D Tonearm - given that I have pretty much decided on one of the higher end Ortofon carts would this represent a good synergy? I had looked at the RS-212D, but this appears to be a discontinued item on Ortofon's website for some reason?
Also, whilst it might be a bit overkill (and out of budget at their list price - but feasible if the right secondhand one came available), does anyone know if either the Kuzma 4-Point or the Graham Phantom II will fit on the Technics (with suitable custom arm board of course)?
A 12 inch tonearm will not fit in the mounting space provided. Basically anything of the right length will fit but, and this is a big but, you will need the correct mounting board. Someone in this parish has fitted a Graham but he needed a custom board.
PS a Technics SL1200 / 1210 with a Kuzma 4-point would be close to the ultimate turntable.
MikeMusic
03-11-2014, 15:28
How's about
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ortofon-RS-212D-Dynamic-Tonearm-/390930250395?pt=US_Record_Player_Turntable_Parts&hash=item5b05423a9b
Think 12" would be a brave decision Prime Minister
:)
How's about
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ortofon-RS-212D-Dynamic-Tonearm-/390930250395?pt=US_Record_Player_Turntable_Parts&hash=item5b05423a9b
Think 12" would be a brave decision Prime Minister
:)
Thanks Mike, yeah, that's the one I have been looking at - it comes up on E-bay UK also. I think its going to be between that and this SME:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SME-M2-9-Tone-arm-tonearm-brand-new-6-year-warrantee-in-the-UK-/251685268858?pt=Turntable_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3a999c6d7a
Obviously the SME is half the price, and appears to be something of a bargain, but does it's lower price suggest lesser performance?
Which would be your (or anyone else's) pick from these two?
I've been told by someone who should know that you cannot fit a 12 inch arm on because the plinth is not wide enough. Just changing the arm board wouldn't be sufficient, you would need to re-plinth the whole deck.
walpurgis
03-11-2014, 17:24
Stands to reason. If a 12" arm is 3" longer, the mounting position will be 3" further away. The TT ain't big enough. You could no doubt make a rear overhanging mount and chop the back the right corner of the TT base to accommodate the underhanging bits, but it would be a bit of a 'dogs breakfast'! :)
No, I don't think I'll go to that bother! ;)
Any comments on those two tonearm options then? Anyone compared them at any point?
walpurgis
03-11-2014, 17:54
Thanks Mike, yeah, that's the one I have been looking at - it comes up on E-bay UK also. I think its going to be between that and this SME:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SME-M2-9-Tone-arm-tonearm-brand-new-6-year-warrantee-in-the-UK-/251685268858?pt=Turntable_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3a999c6d7a
Obviously the SME is half the price, and appears to be something of a bargain, but does it's lower price suggest lesser performance?
Which would be your (or anyone else's) pick from these two?
Hi-Fi World reviewed the SME and were very chuffed with it!
Me? I'd look around for a nice Mayware or Mission 774. Easy to fit and sound excellent for a couple of hundred quid on eBay. Both arms work well with low compliance MCs or high compliance MMs (and Deccas).
MikeMusic
04-11-2014, 09:17
Thanks Mike, yeah, that's the one I have been looking at - it comes up on E-bay UK also. I think its going to be between that and this SME:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SME-M2-9-Tone-arm-tonearm-brand-new-6-year-warrantee-in-the-UK-/251685268858?pt=Turntable_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3a999c6d7a
Obviously the SME is half the price, and appears to be something of a bargain, but does it's lower price suggest lesser performance?
Which would be your (or anyone else's) pick from these two?
Confess I don't know
I took a flyer with my Fidelity Research and am very happy with it
I decided to push the boat out a little and I've gone for the Ortofon RS-212D!
MikeMusic
04-11-2014, 09:34
I decided to push the boat out a little and I've gone for the Ortofon RS-212D!
Have a word with Speedy Steve for an Ebony armboard - very nice upgrade to the sound
Have a word with Speedy Steve for an Ebony armboard - very nice upgrade to the sound
Thanks Mike, I will. Is a tonearm re-wire a worthwhile addition to this arm?
I also need to think about head shells - I've read that the Audio-Technica AT-LHxx series are one of the better ones?
Thanks Mike, I will. Is a tonearm re-wire a worthwhile addition to this arm?
I also need to think about head shells - I've read that the Audio-Technica AT-LHxx series are one of the better ones?
My tuppence worth is that the smaller the signal the more important the cable. I don't really know about the stock wiring in the Ortofon arm, but our glorious leader Marco has this arm, so PM him - I'm sure he can help.
As for headshells, Oyaide do top headshells but then again maybe an ebony headshell will have some sort of synergy* with the putative ebony armboard!?
*synergy: very much an in-word here on AOS: use it as often as you can.
MikeMusic
04-11-2014, 15:30
Thanks Mike, I will. Is a tonearm re-wire a worthwhile addition to this arm?
I also need to think about head shells - I've read that the Audio-Technica AT-LHxx series are one of the better ones?
Rewiring a brand new arm ?
I just wouldn't
*Edit*
Johnny at AudioOrigami could have a useful opinion ......
If you go for an Ortofon the headshell comes with it I think
Wakefield Turntables
04-11-2014, 16:15
If you've gone down the ortofon route, go down the ortofon cartridge route as we'll as we say here on AOS SYNERGY!
If you've gone down the ortofon route, go down the ortofon cartridge route as we'll as we say here on AOS SYNERGY!
Oh, absolutely, I actually decided to go with the Ortofon tonearm partly because I had already decided to go with an Ortofon cart.
I'm now just not sure which cart. Do I just play safe with a Cadenza Black which a lot of people appear to like here (yourself included) and appears to be a fairly well trodden path with the Technics, or look at an SPU (Royal GM, A95 or Silver Meister), or really push the boat out a look for a discounted MC Windfeld.
MikeMusic
05-11-2014, 09:03
How deep are your pockets Gareth ?
I'm happy with my SPU (for the time being !)
:)
How deep are your pockets Gareth ?
Not very Mike - but if you remember from my OP, I have saved and budgeted originally for a Brinkmann Oasis or similar, so even with the purchase of the 1210 and all the mods, I am still well under my original budget. That said, I have stopped myself going too mad on the 1210 - not getting the Kuzma 4-point or Graham tonearm for example. Likewise with the cart, a discounted Windfeld is probably as far as I'm prepared to go on cart budget.
The thing I'm just not sure on is a) which cartridge type I might prefer the sound of, and b) whether it is even worth going as far as the Windfeld given the other components in the deck, for example will the Ortofon arm hold the Windfeld back, or put a different way, will the Cadenza black, or an SPU give me everything I need.
MikeMusic
05-11-2014, 09:56
You're into territory that only few can answer here
The MN bearing and platter are the ones to base everything on.
Outboard PSU about the same area
I started my big upgrade after hearing a system that made mine sound poor.
The Technics was at the front end
With MN bearing and platter, outboard PSU, FR arm, Ortofon SPU I'm delighted with the sound
this is with a new Phone Pre amp, Pre Amp, Power amp and new mains cables and interconnects, oh yes and a PS Audio P10
The 80/20 rule applies sooner or later and you budget might be better spent on other kit in the chain
Nice problem if you have the dough
:)
Wakefield Turntables
05-11-2014, 10:53
Not very Mike - but if you remember from my OP, I have saved and budgeted originally for a Brinkmann Oasis or similar, so even with the purchase of the 1210 and all the mods, I am still well under my original budget. That said, I have stopped myself going too mad on the 1210 - not getting the Kuzma 4-point or Graham tonearm for example. Likewise with the cart, a discounted Windfeld is probably as far as I'm prepared to go on cart budget.
The thing I'm just not sure on is a) which cartridge type I might prefer the sound of, and b) whether it is even worth going as far as the Windfeld given the other components in the deck, for example will the Ortofon arm hold the Windfeld back, or put a different way, will the Cadenza black, or an SPU give me everything I need.
i will ill try and answer this for you a little later, I'm in between patients at the moment!
You're into territory that only few can answer here
The MN bearing and platter are the ones to base everything on.
Outboard PSU about the same area
I started my big upgrade after hearing a system that made mine sound poor.
The Technics was at the front end
With MN bearing and platter, outboard PSU, FR arm, Ortofon SPU I'm delighted with the sound
this is with a new Phone Pre amp, Pre Amp, Power amp and new mains cables and interconnects, oh yes and a PS Audio P10
The 80/20 rule applies sooner or later and you budget might be better spent on other kit in the chain
Nice problem if you have the dough
:)
Thanks Mike. I'm not looking to change anything else in the chain as yet, though I may look to see if I can improve on the ML phono stage at some point in the future.
Interesting you mention the P10 though, I have looked at those - did it have a significant impact on your system?
I also see you use a Stillpoint weight - how have you found that versus other weights?
i will ill try and answer this for you a little later, I'm in between patients at the moment!
Thanks Andy
Thanks Mike. I'm not looking to change anything else in the chain as yet, though I may look to see if I can improve on the ML phono stage at some point in the future.
Interesting you mention the P10 though, I have looked at those - did it have a significant impact on your system?
I also see you use a Stillpoint weight - how have you found that versus other weights?
Gareth just buy the Oyaide record weight as it looks so cool and works well on the Techie, dunno if l have mentioned this before ( l cannot be bothered to look back through the thread :lol: but why not do one upgrade at a time, that way you evaluate each upgrade individually, the fun will last last longer and maybe save tou some money in the long run.
Wakefield Turntables
05-11-2014, 19:40
Gareth just buy the Oyaide record weight as it looks so cool and works well on the Techie, dunno if l have mentioned this before ( l cannot be bothered to look back through the thread :lol: but why not do one upgrade at a time, that way you evaluate each upgrade individually, the fun will last last longer and maybe save tou some money in the long run.
I wouldn't bother with the record weight or buying a fancy platter mat. I've done both and wasted money. The best I've found is the 30 quid Resomat available on eBay.
Thanks Mike. I'm not looking to change anything else in the chain as yet, though I may look to see if I can improve on the ML phono stage at some point in the future.
Interesting you mention the P10 though, I have looked at those - did it have a significant impact on your system?
I also see you use a Stillpoint weight - how have you found that versus other weights?
I have no experience with Stillpoints. The P10 just improves the soundstage no end. The p10 is not a "significant" upgrade but is worth the 4.5K. You will never need to piss around with fancy cables, ferrite coils, rewiring your house, makin a balanced power supply. You will get a device which provides very clean and very stable power supply.
The thing I'm just not sure on is a) which cartridge type I might prefer the sound of, and b) whether it is even worth going as far as the Windfeld given the other components in the deck, for example will the Ortofon arm hold the Windfeld back, or put a different way, will the Cadenza black, or an SPU give me everything I need.
The Windfeld is further up the MC ladder than the black but the Cadenza is newer and cheaper. It depends on the sound you want. I prefer a MC to replay exactly whats on the record the Cadenza black does just that and I've heard stories of the Windfeld being a warmer cart. If you want warmth either a) turn up your heating or b) get yourself a valve amp. Adding the ST80SE SUT from ortofon will move things up another level. You will have probably the best synergy you can get If you end up with the Ortofon SUT, tonearm and cart as they are all designed to work perfectly with each. I can certainly vouch for the ST80SE and Cadenza black combo. i have no intention whatsoever to change my setup.
Hope this ranting helps!
Gareth just buy the Oyaide record weight as it looks so cool and works well on the Techie, dunno if l have mentioned this before ( l cannot be bothered to look back through the thread :lol: but why not do one upgrade at a time, that way you evaluate each upgrade individually, the fun will last last longer and maybe save tou some money in the long run.
Thanks Andy, but yes, we've already covered that off earlier in the thread ;)
I wouldn't bother with the record weight or buying a fancy platter mat. I've done both and wasted money. The best I've found is the 30 quid Resomat available on eBay.
I have no experience with Stillpoints. The P10 just improves the soundstage no end. The p10 is not a "significant" upgrade but is worth the 4.5K. You will never need to piss around with fancy cables, ferrite coils, rewiring your house, makin a balanced power supply. You will get a device which provides very clean and very stable power supply.
The Windfeld is further up the MC ladder than the black but the Cadenza is newer and cheaper. It depends on the sound you want. I prefer a MC to replay exactly whats on the record the Cadenza black does just that and I've heard stories of the Windfeld being a warmer cart. If you want warmth either a) turn up your heating or b) get yourself a valve amp. Adding the ST80SE SUT from ortofon will move things up another level. You will have probably the best synergy you can get If you end up with the Ortofon SUT, tonearm and cart as they are all designed to work perfectly with each. I can certainly vouch for the ST80SE and Cadenza black combo. i have no intention whatsoever to change my setup.
Hope this ranting helps!
Thanks Andy - its not ranting at all, very useful feedback! I hadn't read that the Windfeld leaned to the warm side of the spectrum, so that is exactly the kind of thing I wanted to know.
I can't help noticing that you have two set-ups in your sig, and you have the Silver Meister SPU. Have you compared your two carts in the same system? If so, how do they vary?
Wakefield Turntables
06-11-2014, 08:41
Thanks Andy - its not ranting at all, very useful feedback! I hadn't read that the Windfeld leaned to the warm side of the spectrum, so that is exactly the kind of thing I wanted to know.
I can't help noticing that you have two set-ups in your sig, and you have the Silver Meister SPU. Have you compared your two carts in the same system? If so, how do they vary?
you can't use the silver Meister in a fixed head shell sme v so I haven't had it in my 1210 setup.
you can't use the silver Meister in a fixed head shell sme v so I haven't had it in my 1210 setup.
Yeah, I had realised that Andy, I was meaning more the other way, with the Cadenza on your Garrard - or just a general comparison of the sonic signature of the two carts?
Wakefield Turntables
06-11-2014, 09:28
Yeah, I had realised that Andy, I was meaning more the other way, with the Cadenza on your Garrard - or just a general comparison of the sonic signature of the two carts?
No I haven't! The black on the 1210 is aligned exactly as I want it. I'm not risking screwing the alignment up. It's difficult to compare one with the other. Ones very clinical, forensic, bombastic the other has a very lucid mid range, relaxing, like chalk and cheese really.
MikeMusic
06-11-2014, 09:54
Thanks Mike. I'm not looking to change anything else in the chain as yet, though I may look to see if I can improve on the ML phono stage at some point in the future.
Interesting you mention the P10 though, I have looked at those - did it have a significant impact on your system?
I also see you use a Stillpoint weight - how have you found that versus other weights?
I started deliberately at the front end and moved through, although the FR arm and VIDA Phono Pre popped up unexpectedly late in the upgrades
The P10 makes a big difference. Really did surprise me. At the same time I was trying out Ultimate mains cables.
With Ultimate and P10 the difference in bass was staggering. Like it is coming out of the ground.
Early days ... I was tried some RDC 4 cones under first the Isis and then the P10 late last night.
Difficult to believe what they did to the sound. I wondered if my ears or brain had gone wonky.
More testing required when I am n=more with it
The Stillpoint weight came up at a good price so I grabbed it.
Good difference between no weight and the Stillpoints. Not tested against others
Are you near the top left end of Surrey perchance you could pop in for a listen.......?
Rush2112
07-11-2014, 07:35
Well I have to admire the dedication to improving the performance of a turntable that after full mods has nothing but a passing resemblance to the original ! It's a shame that such breadth and dedication doesn't appear to be applied to decks who's fundamental design principles were maximum fidelity, all those unwanted Linn"s, Pink's, Roksan's, Michell's, Origin Live's, Voyd's, Townsend's, Heybrook's, Alaphason's but to name a few !
You really can't get over it can you? ;)
My Technics looks very similar to the original, with just a couple of minor external changes.
Why would I want a different deck aimed at HiF? The Technics was adopted by the DJ scene, as it was robust. It was not designed for the DJ scene.
The drive stability/accuracy is what this deck is all about. I don't need to worry about belt stretch due to age or temperature variations.
prestonchipfryer
07-11-2014, 08:17
Well I have to admire the dedication to improving the performance of a turntable that after full mods has nothing but a passing resemblance to the original ! It's a shame that such breadth and dedication doesn't appear to be applied to decks who's fundamental design principles were maximum fidelity, all those unwanted Linn"s, Pink's, Roksan's, Michell's, Origin Live's, Voyd's, Townsend's, Heybrook's, Alaphason's but to name a few !
Nothing but a passing resemblance eh! Should've gone to Specsavers! :lol: Direct Drive is so much better than the rubber band TTs you mention. ;)
MikeMusic
07-11-2014, 09:41
Isigonis did not design the Mini to go racing and rallying or do other things it got used for
Just worked rather well
I liked the V8 Buick engine on the back of one
:)
The Technics may well be a happy accident, but too many have grabbed it for it to be coincidence.
Other decks would have the same following if they could do what the Tech does, or maybe had sold in similar numbers
Well I have to admire the dedication to improving the performance of a turntable that after full mods has nothing but a passing resemblance to the original ! It's a shame that such breadth and dedication doesn't appear to be applied to decks who's fundamental design principles were maximum fidelity, all those unwanted Linn"s, Pink's, Roksan's, Michell's, Origin Live's, Voyd's, Townsend's, Heybrook's, Alaphason's but to name a few !
Thanks for your input Rush. To answer your questions:
a) I already owned this Technics before I knew it could be modded. It is essentially my first ever deck, and so has a certain amount of sentimental value, so I want to keep it and take its performance as far as I can, rather than go out and buy some other random vintage deck.
b) I also bought off a friend, so I know the decks history and I know its been very well looked after, so I would rather that than play roulette with some other deck with an unknown history off fleabay.
c) The Technics is world renowned as having one of the best direct drive motors created in a turntable, that - motor quality, accuracy and control - is why I personally think it is worth modifying the Technics over belt drive decks. After all no matter how many upgrades you make to the Technics, the motor and motor controller always remain as the core strength of the deck. On a belt drive deck, I assume you can easily substitute in a better motor, controller, belt, spindle and platter (which is essentially what every belt drive manufacturer has done when creating their own new decks), so essentially nothing of the original deck will remain.
d) Finally, as has been point out above (and numerous times elsewhere), the Technics 1200 was always designed as a hi-fi deck (if such a thing even exists - sure a well engineered TT isa well engineered TT irrespective of its intended purpose), it was only it reliability and solid engineering that saw it adopted by the DJ community.
Wakefield Turntables
07-11-2014, 13:55
Well I have to admire the dedication to improving the performance of a turntable that after full mods has nothing but a passing resemblance to the original ! It's a shame that such breadth and dedication doesn't appear to be applied to decks who's fundamental design principles were maximum fidelity, all those unwanted Linn"s, Pink's, Roksan's, Michell's, Origin Live's, Voyd's, Townsend's, Heybrook's, Alaphason's but to name a few !
Perhaps some people dont give a shit about what the deck looks like;) Sometimes its more about taking a journey and defining "YOUR OWN" version of what your ultimate deck should sound like. ;)
Well I have to admire the dedication to improving the performance of a turntable that after full mods has nothing but a passing resemblance to the original ! It's a shame that such breadth and dedication doesn't appear to be applied to decks who's fundamental design principles were maximum fidelity, all those unwanted Linn"s, Pink's, Roksan's, Michell's, Origin Live's, Voyd's, Townsend's, Heybrook's, Alaphason's but to name a few !
You trolled this once before and got several bites to which you did not respond.
Now you are trolling it again. Is there any point or is it just a wind-up?
Perhaps some people dont give a shit about what the deck looks like;) Sometimes its more about taking a journey and defining "YOUR OWN" version of what your ultimate deck should sound like. ;)
No, no Andy. It's much better not to think for yourself and just buy an off the shelf deck recommended by some 'journalist' whose heard about 3 decks in his life, all expensive British made belt drives, of course. Be good little mindless consumer. never question recieved wisdom. Mod your own deck the way you want it? Unthinkable. Next thing people will be designing and building their own speakers instead of simply buying Harbeths. Thin end of the wedge.
Yeah… Mark, your P.O.V has been heard now (on numerous occasions), and responded to by quite a few members, so (pun intended), please change the record - ta! :)
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
07-11-2014, 14:39
No, no Andy. It's much better not to think for yourself and just buy an off the shelf deck recommended by some 'journalist' whose heard about 3 decks in his life, all expensive British made belt drives, of course. Be good little mindless consumer. never question recieved wisdom. Mod your own deck the way you want it? Unthinkable. Next thing people will be designing and building their own speakers instead of simply buying Harbeths. Thin end of the wedge.
Thanks for a very amusing response. Put a very big smile on my mug, cheers! :rofl:
Yeah… Mark, your P.O.V has been heard now (on numerous occasions), and responded to by quite a few members, so (pun intended), please change the record - ta! :)
Marco.
+1.
Well I have to admire the dedication to improving the performance of a turntable that after full mods has nothing but a passing resemblance to the original ! It's a shame that such breadth and dedication doesn't appear to be applied to decks who's fundamental design principles were maximum fidelity, all those unwanted Linn"s, Pink's, Roksan's, Michell's, Origin Live's, Voyd's, Townsend's, Heybrook's, Alaphason's but to name a few !
Men need hobbies like women need handbags and shoes, mocking people who want to up-grade a turntable as a hobby is slightly silly in the scheme of things, the techy has 4 feet and spins, a fully pimped one still looks similar to the original as when it has a record on it still has 4 feet and spins, oh and don't forget the lid, up to now there is no up-grade for that so its the same as the original :lol:
No, no Andy. It's much better not to think for yourself and just buy an off the shelf deck recommended by some 'journalist' whose heard about 3 decks in his life, all expensive British made belt drives, of course. Be good little mindless consumer. never question recieved wisdom.
Some folk simply refuse to entertain the notion of lateral thinking… ;)
Marco.
Thanks for chipping in guys! :thumbsup:
One question that I still haven't been able to find an answer for; where can you go to get the lettering put back on your Technics deck after is been repainted?
I'm aware the options appear to be tampon stamping or silk screening, but where can you go to get than done? How did people on here add the lettering back on after painting?
I have a 2nd 1200 project and I am going to use stickers from ebay eg http://www.ebay.com/bhp/technics-sticker
I have a 2nd 1200 project and I am going to use stickers from ebay eg http://www.ebay.com/bhp/technics-sticker
Yeah I saw those, and some metallic little placks, but I really didn't want to go down that route as I think sticking something on will let the final finish down - I really just wanted to get the letting printed straight on.
Yeah I saw those, and some metallic little placks, but I really didn't want to go down that route as I think sticking something on will let the final finish down - I really just wanted to get the letting printed straight on.
Could be expensive! *rubs hands* If you do go down that route you will need to find a matching typeface.
Don't get the stickers, they look crap. I have an SL1200 which someone has re-done in white and used the stickers. I ripped them all off so the deck is totally de-badged and it looks a whole lot better. Why does a deck need writing all over it? You know what it is and what everything does already.
MikeMusic
08-11-2014, 11:05
Go stealth, keep it stickerless
:)
Wakefield Turntables
08-11-2014, 17:49
I nominate that your 1210 should go butt naked! There is a bloody big sticker on the back of the 1210 anyway telling you that its a 1210. ;)
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac233/Macca_photos_2009/001-5.jpg (http://s903.photobucket.com/user/Macca_photos_2009/media/001-5.jpg.html)
Is that your one Martin? very nice it is and +1 for the record.:)
It's my spare deck. It's from 1990 and I have a much newer one so I use that for my daily driver, although the white one looks cooler I think.
Thanks guys - I'll go nude on the labels if necessary, but I'll try and get some lettering if I can.
Rush2112
11-11-2014, 11:40
Troll no point of view yes ! Just find it odd that people are not looking at other decks in the same way. As for its Hi-Fi design well it was of course designed with fidelity in mind after all that's it's purpose but as for the applied design criteria it's not that followed by the majority of engineers who's aim is maximum fidelity take a look around the regarded Hi-Fi turntables belts and suspension are in the majority ! Once again didn't say it was bad or not worthy of improvement just there are so many others worthy of attention too! If you already own one then sure make the most of it if you don't take a look around at what else might give you a rewarding experience.
Rush2112
11-11-2014, 11:48
My wife has just interrupted my reply to offer her words of wisdom, she who must be obeyed is seldom wrong! She would refer to me as a maverick but certainly not a troll, I would add that mocking was neither intended or in fact delivered in the response! It's a big hi-fi world with room for us all and a bit of edgy debate is good for us all!
. . . take a look around the regarded Hi-Fi turntables belts and suspension are in the majority !
Principally because they are significantly easier to design and engineer. Pretty much any one can buy a motor, and design a half decent spindle/bearing and a nice heavy platter, and stick a rubber belt between the two. Those manufacturers that do the design well, simply refine those key elements as far as they are able. A direct drive motor is a completely different prospect.
Once again didn't say it was bad or not worthy of improvement just there are so many others worthy of attention too! If you already own one then sure make the most of it if you don't take a look around at what else might give you a rewarding experience.
I think I already said I do already own one?! ;)
My wife has just interrupted my reply to offer her words of wisdom, she who must be obeyed is seldom wrong! She would refer to me as a maverick but certainly not a troll, I would add that mocking was neither intended or in fact delivered in the response! It's a big hi-fi world with room for us all and a bit of edgy debate is good for us all!
Mark - it is not that we don't want a bit of edgy debate. You are more than welcome to start a thread about the efficacies of belt drive decks compared to direct drive and so forth. Starting that debate on this thread isn't really appropriate since the OP has already got his Technics and is in the process of working on it. That you did not respond to the replies to your first comment did make it look a little like you were just trying to stir things a bit, hence my trolling comment when you basically said the same things again.
Rush2112
11-11-2014, 14:37
Fair point ! I think on balance of my many replies to threads on her this was perhaps a little dogmatic my apologies if any offence was caused.
Fair point ! I think on balance of my many replies to threads on her this was perhaps a little dogmatic my apologies if any offence was caused.
No offence taken here :thumbsup:
Can someone tell me what the small black metal cog is for on the underside on the stock Technics platter? Is it something to do with the speed sensor?
Also what is the purpose of the thin piece of metal that wraps around it?
13600
I note on the Mike New ETP platter that I now have, that this cog is slightly different (slightly different size with different size and taper gaps in the cog). It is also absent the thin strip of metal that goes around the stock cog. Does this matter?
13599
Mike_New
30-11-2014, 06:52
Hi wookii,
The "black" cog and it's relative axial position with respect to the radial magnetic field of the ferite drive magnet is crucial to the opperation of the direct drive platter. The design of my syncronisation cog is different to the OEM unit.
The OEM cog is a laminated unit, mine is not. but is machined from a solid bar of special iron.
The pulse generator is mounted onto an alluminium centre boss which is inserted into the ETP Platter.
The teeth of the pulse generator are then aligned to the manetic field of the ferro magnet using a special jig, and locked into position.
Hi wookii,
The "black" cog and it's relative axial position with respect to the radial magnetic field of the ferite drive magnet is crucial to the opperation of the direct drive platter. The design of my syncronisation cog is different to the OEM unit.
The OEM cog is a laminated unit, mine is not. but is machined from a solid bar of special iron.
The pulse generator is mounted onto an alluminium centre boss which is inserted into the ETP Platter.
The teeth of the pulse generator are then aligned to the manetic field of the ferro magnet using a special jig, and locked into position.
Many thanks for taking the time to reply Mike - I hope you are feeling better.
Does the cog design you have implemented improve the rotational accuracy of your platter over the stock platter then? If so, that is a great addition that you might want to make more of a point of - I'm sure many people aren't aware of the differences!
Mike_New
13-12-2014, 01:39
I should have responded earlier to your post Wookii.
I have not shouted about the differences between my Platter and the original or other suppliers, as it will all become a quagmire of technical opinions which people will be confused and scared by, thus being turned off of doing any upgrades.
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