View Full Version : Reveal all or keep schtum?
You are invited over to another hifi buffs gaff for a bit of socializing and to listen to a selection of music on his or her megabucks system. Whilst sitting there listening to some choons it occurs to you that your own modest system, which cost a pittance in comparison to the sparkly gem currently strutting its stuff in front of you, comes very close to, is on a par, or performs better than what you are listening to. Do you say something and risk pained feelings and crushed egos, or do you just slink away into the night with a smug and satisfied expression on your face? I've been in this position twice and admit that I have said nada to the people involved.
awkwardbydesign
23-10-2014, 13:04
My system sounds shit, so it's never happened to me. :lol:
I'm not one for giving people the bad news. It's highly unlikely that my system would better something worth a lot more but if it did, I'd do the same as you.
if you can't say what you think to them, whats the point in being in their company?, if I ask an opinion I want what you think not whats nice
purite audio
23-10-2014, 13:27
You would really have to hear your system in their room, or vice versa.
Keith.
awkwardbydesign
23-10-2014, 13:33
if you can't say what you think to them, whats the point in being in their company?, if I ask an opinion I want what you think not whats nice
If they asked for an honest opinion I would give it. Otherwise I wouldn't.
If they asked for an honest opinion I would give it. Otherwise I wouldn't.
Exactly that, there was never a suggestion that the guy was asking an opinion.
Remind me never to ask Markiii round to listen to some music!
I dont think you should be rude about it but if asked ..........:eyebrows:
Going to listen to a top system compared to mine at weekend a!d i am sure it will beat mine ....and it ought to as well but by how much is the question?
You can't say 'sounds allright mate but mine pisses on it from a height and it cost about a tenth of what you've spunked away' even if you've been asked for an honest opinion.
I know, I've tried it and it doesn't go down well.
Actually I'm more usually in the reverse position where their system cost less than mine but blows it away. Bought a starter system once for a mate's missus from Richer sounds, cost £300 quid all in and it killed my then £2.5k system and danced on its grave. Not good.
I'd say nothing just invite him round for a listen to your set up and see what his reaction is when he hears it.
walpurgis
23-10-2014, 14:02
I never hear anything better than mine! :lol:
It's a tough one isn't it because obviously the experience is somewhat personal. The value of one of these systems was well into five figures and I arrived expecting to be totally blown away by it. My own system has evolved massively since then and yet it is worth less but sounds so much better than the one I owned at the time.
anthonyTD
23-10-2014, 14:24
+1
If they asked for an honest opinion I would give it. Otherwise I wouldn't.
One thing to bear in mind is that we all have preferences as to what is our ideal sound and therefore someone elses system/sound may not be to our taste.
It would always be prudent to remember this before one critises someone elses system and call it a load of bollocks! I therefore tend to keep my mouth shut.
If comments are asked for I try to accentuate the positive and make light of the negative.
It is always easy to pull someone elses system or music to bits if it does not fit our own very personal aural taste, after all that is why we all have very different systems and listen to very different music!
istari_knight
23-10-2014, 14:37
I'll say if it's not to my taste but won't won't keep banging on about it. There's expressing an opinion & then there's just plain rude.
You would really have to hear your system in their room, or vice versa.
Keith.
One thing to bear in mind is that we all have preferences as to what is our ideal sound and therefore someone elses system/sound may not be to our taste.
It would always be prudent to remember this before one critises someone elses system and call it a load of bollocks! I therefore tend to keep my mouth shut.
If comments are asked for I try to accentuate the positive and make light of the negative.
It is always easy to pull someone elses system or music to bits if it does not fit our own very personal aural taste, after all that is why we all have very different systems and listen to very different music!
Some good points here. Maybe it's just me but I found both occasions rather awkward as I have a great deal of respect for both parties. Perhaps I should have said something but at the time I wasn't sure quite what to say or how to say it.
walpurgis
23-10-2014, 14:50
It's just common sense. For instance, you don't call someone's kids ugly (even if they are). Same principle apples with the Hi-Fi or car or bike, etc. Use a little discretion. :)
jandl100
23-10-2014, 14:52
They'd probably think your system sounded utter shite as well. ;)
Most systems do some things well, other things less well. If I were asked for an opinion I'd give a polite but balanced view.
Tbh I have not heard a bad set up. Some that I didn't like but as said it's all about your ears. I would be more embarrassed it someone listened to mine and started crying. FORTUNATELY that has only happened once. The guy sold all his gear and gave up.
He's waiting on me dying and is then gonna Nick it
Personally I'd rather have someone come round to have a listen and tell me everything that they think is wrong than have them mouth platitudes at me. My hi-fi is not me so why would I identify criticism of it with criticism of me and take it in any way personally?
Reacting emotionally to that sort of thing is for children, not men.
I once told a dealer that the £1K speakers he was demming me were 'not up to much' - he wasn't happy. WTF is that about?
I would neither be smug nor would I say anything. We all have different tastes and different priorities, never mind budgets. It never ceases to amaze me how much snobbery, or inverted snobbery goes on in hifi circles which concentrate so much on kit and price tags (high or low) and so little time on the music and company. I really couldn't give a monkeys how much or how little someone has invested in their system, but care more about their passion for music. I would only ever usually accept an invite to a bake off if it was for the company and music but sometimes because I want to hear something kit-wise that I have never heard before.
One of the best and most valuable things about bake-offs or music gatherings as far as I'm concerned is the exposure to music I've perhaps never heard or considered. I have gained more enjoyment over the years of being introduced to new music. Honestly, when pushed years later which I remember, the megabucks systems, the humble syetms or the music and who was there, it's always the characters and music I remember.
They'd probably think your system sounded utter shite as well. ;)
Your probably right Jerry... :lol:
Depends if you have been invited round to listen to music or gear. If music, then mum's the word. If gear then it is not difficult to be polite. You can say things like 'have you tried bringing your speakers out from the wall?'
anthonyTD
23-10-2014, 15:45
I will elaborate a bit more as to where i am on this,
I remember many years ago now I was invited round to a friend of a friends house to listen to his set up, now i should explain that i did not know the guy who's system we were going to listen to at the time, Anyway, i wont list the equipment in question as its counter-productive to the point i am trying to get over, so i sat there for a short while and listened and to be honest, you could strip wallpaper with the presentation i was hearing! Anyway the guy who's system it was then asked what i thought, and all i said was, well, to be honest, i couldn’t listen to that for very long, a bit harsh you may think, but that was the honest truth, and after he had had chance to take on board what i had said, he turned to me and said, no neither can I! You see, all his mates were coming around and having a listen, and when being asked the same question as me, not wanting to hurt his feelings, they just lied and stated what they thought he wanted to hear, when in reality, the guy really wanted their honest opinion as he thought there was something wrong with his ears!
That is why, if i am asked for my opinion, i will give it, however, i would always use tact, and sensibility in my reasoning for doing so, and as others have stated, we all have slightly different preferences’ in how we think something should sound, however, sometimes something sounds so obviously wrong that you would have to be deaf not to notice!
:doh:
A...
I would neither be smug nor would I say anything. We all have different tastes and different priorities, never mind budgets. It never ceases to amaze me how much snobbery, or inverted snobbery goes on in hifi circles which concentrate so much on kit and price tags (high or low) and so little time on the music and company. I really couldn't give a monkeys how much or how little someone has invested in their system, but care more about their passion for music. I would only ever usually accept an invite to a bake off if it was for the company and music but sometimes because I want to hear something kit-wise that I have never heard before.
One of the best and most valuable things about bake-offs or music gatherings as far as I'm concerned is the exposure to music I've perhaps never heard or considered. I have gained more enjoyment over the years of being introduced to new music. Honestly, when pushed years later which I remember, the megabucks systems, the humble syetms or the music and who was there, it's always the characters and music I remember.
The company and music were excellent Paul, it's more that I was rather shocked to discover that there wasn't the huge gulf in performance between the systems that I'd been expecting. I was grateful for the opportunity though as it demonstrated to me that I was heading in the right direction in relation to music playback on my own system. Up until then I'd no reference point as all I had to go on were memories of equipment I'd listened to over twenty years previously.
I would neither be smug nor would I say anything. We all have different tastes and different priorities, never mind budgets. It never ceases to amaze me how much snobbery, or inverted snobbery goes on in hifi circles which concentrate so much on kit and price tags (high or low) and so little time on the music and company. I really couldn't give a monkeys how much or how little someone has invested in their system, but care more about their passion for music. I would only ever usually accept an invite to a bake off if it was for the company and music but sometimes because I want to hear something kit-wise that I have never heard before.
One of the best and most valuable things about bake-offs or music gatherings as far as I'm concerned is the exposure to music I've perhaps never heard or considered. I have gained more enjoyment over the years of being introduced to new music. Honestly, when pushed years later which I remember, the megabucks systems, the humble syetms or the music and who was there, it's always the characters and music I remember.
I'd agree...I went over to Brian's house to have a listen to his system, which I liked a lot. in fact it spurred me on to improve mine(so its all his fault). He also introduced me to some music I'd never heard that I liked and went and bought the album when I went home.
I was rather shocked to discover that there wasn't the huge gulf in performance between the systems that I'd been expecting. I was grateful for the opportunity though as it demonstrated to me that I was heading in the right direction in relation to music playback on my own system. Up until then I'd no reference point as all I had to go on were memories of equipment I'd listened to over twenty years previously.
A visit to the Scalford show is good for getting a reference point.
Dave said:
The company and music were excellent Paul, it's more that I was rather shocked to discover that there wasn't the huge gulf in performance between the systems that I'd been expecting. I was grateful for the opportunity though as it demonstrated to me that I was heading in the right direction in relation to music playback on my own system. Up until then I'd no reference point as all I had to go on were memories of equipment I'd listened to over twenty years previously.
Often Dave, there isn't the gulf that the £-signs might suggest. To extract decent sound doesn't cost that much. To extract exceptional sound (and by that, I mean timbrel accuracy, great timing and genuine extension, exceptional imaging and detail at both ends of the spectrum without either being dominant) often does. Not always, but more often than not. Thing is, there are an awful lot of very poor systems put together where individual components may in themselves be ok and as Anthony says, many you could strip wall paper with these days (what is it about bright sounding systems people like?). Most people who love music I find enjoy systems between the extremes I mention above only because once a that "good" sounding level, you listen to music and it never becomes a chore or a "what if this sounds bad on the system today" type of scenario.
Personally, I would never give an opinion unless asked. If someone asks, I usually use tact in any response as people can be very sensitive.
The Barbarian
23-10-2014, 15:56
I can safely say that the last Hi-Fi bake off i visited will truly be the last for me. I can't recall anything i heard that i liked compared to mine, some just gave me a migrane.
I made no excuses just dissapeared with my lift ASAP.
awkwardbydesign
23-10-2014, 15:57
I never hear anything better than mine! :lol:
Is it cos you's deaf?
http://www.alivenetwork.com/images/bands/aliG-lookalike-1-prof.jpg
I will elaborate a bit more as to where i am on this,
I remember many years ago now I was invited round to a friend of a friends house to listen to his set up, now i should explain that i did not know the guy who's system we were going to listen to at the time, Anyway, i wont list the equipment in question as its counter-productive to the point i am trying to get over, so i sat there for a short while and listened and to be honest, you could strip wallpaper with the presentation i was hearing! Anyway the guy who's system it was then asked what i thought, and all i said was, well, to be honest, i couldn’t listen to that for very long, a bit harsh you may think, but that was the honest truth, and after he had had chance to take on board what i had said, he turned to me and said, no neither can I! You see, all his mates were coming around and having a listen, and when being asked the same question as me, not wanting to hurt his feelings, they just lied and stated what they thought he wanted to hear, when in reality, the guy really wanted their honest opinion as he thought there was something wrong with his ears!
That is why, if i am asked for my opinion, i will give it, however, i would always use tact, and sensibility in my reasoning for doing so, and as others have stated, we all have slightly different preferences’ in how we think something should sound, however, sometimes something sounds so obviously wrong that you would have to be deaf not to notice!
:doh:
A...
Nicely put Anthony. Your experience mirrors one of mine, painfully strident doesn't begin to describe it, perhaps next time I visit I will mention it. I'd certainly welcome any constructive criticism from anyone who visited here so I really should take a leaf out of my own book I guess...
Is it cos you's deaf?
http://www.alivenetwork.com/images/bands/aliG-lookalike-1-prof.jpg
:rfl::lolsign:
A visit to the Scalford show is good for getting a reference point.
I am toying with the idea of exhibiting next year but maybe it would be better to go as a punter initially ;)
Mr Kipling
23-10-2014, 16:41
Strangely enough, Dave, I have that very same dream myself. Bit of a bugger though when I wake up and face up to reality when I switch the old Amstrad tower system on.
Might well explain why I spend more time in bed than listening to my system.
Mr Kipling
23-10-2014, 17:41
Was only joking Dave.
Was only joking Dave.
Nah I'm sulking, you slagged of mi Amstrad... :ner: :D
anthonyTD
23-10-2014, 17:48
After the day in question we became good friends, and together, we were able to put together a system that he was very happy with...And one that i could easily listen to for lengthy sessions without my ears bleeding!!! :)
Nicely put Anthony. Your experience mirrors one of mine, painfully strident doesn't begin to describe it, perhaps next time I visit I will mention it. I'd certainly welcome any constructive criticism from anyone who visited here so I really should take a leaf out of my own book I guess...
I think it's all how it's done - I was surprised a few years ago when I went to my first Scalford show, just how many systems sounded a bit 'meh' compared to expectations (equally there were some stunning ones!). Exhibiting a few years later I found that my modest system sounded fairly good to my ears - and a few visitors too - but I put that down to synergy and sins of omission rather than anything else.
I've a friend who has a very expensive and fancy setup. Despite many hints and outright requests he's never invited me round to hear it - can't for the life of me figure out why. Maybe performance anxiety?
If I were in your shoes and the system was really awful - I would gently raise the areas that I thought were of concern and talk about them not being to my taste - and maybe see how it went from there. People can be prickly when their babies are being criticised!
The Barbarian
24-10-2014, 14:23
I was never there but that System Alex put together with the RAM speakers, i bet made more than a few people with expensive systems embarressed
icehockeyboy
24-10-2014, 14:42
I once went to someone's house and heard his much lauded set up, lozenge MF amp, Arcam CDP, through PMC GB1's and thought how totally mundane and not overly impressive it was.
I didn't tell him mind.....
fatmarley
25-10-2014, 07:12
Heard a very expensive, active Naim SBL system playing 'Hotel california' that was as dull as dishwater. The mids just didn't project and were very flat. He thought it was amazing so there was no way I was going to say anything.
It must of been 20 odd years ago that I heard that system but it's only recently that I realised how good Hotel california can sound.
StanleyB
25-10-2014, 07:42
It must of been 20 odd years ago that I heard that system but it's only recently that I realised how good Hotel california can sound.
Hotel California is my top reference album that is used for all sorts of tests.
icehockeyboy
25-10-2014, 09:10
Hotel California is my top reference album that is used for all sorts of tests.
*Finishes reading last post and goes straight over to Deezer to obtain aforementioned Eagles album.
Playing as I type.
Any tracks in particular Stan?
This whole question is surely one of manners in general rather than audio?
If an actual audio friend asks me my opinion I give it warts and all because I know that is the opinion they are asking for. If a stranger or acquaintance asks me I concentrate on the positives and omit the negatives. If, when in further conversation, they then touch upon a negative I will probably gently elaborate. If they don't directly ask for an opinion I keep my thoughts to myself.
It's the old 'better' vs 'different' debate. Scalford is interesting in that respect, and I have found my visits there to be quite inspirational in coming to a realisation about what I want from a collection of boxes. One of my hifi buddies has a good set of ears and delights in giving a forensic explanation of what is right and wrong with the presentation of a system. Meanwhile, I'm sat there, not listening to him, thinking 'Flippin' 'eck, that's Frank Sinatra singing in the room ... right there in front of me ... wow!' :lol:
Scalford is interesting in that respect, and I have found my visits there to be quite inspirational in coming to a realisation about what I want from a collection of boxes.
Really, has it! I've been to all the Scalford show and your comment surprises me; in what way have you found the experience inspirational?
The Barbarian
25-10-2014, 10:09
inspirational ! :scratch: it eye opening thats for sure ;)
Really, has it! I've been to all the Scalford show and your comment surprises me; in what way have you found the experience inspirational?
I've been going for quite a few years now, but when I first went I had been relying on magazines and dealer demonstrations for guidance ... having been away from the hobby for decades, I was actually believing a load of things that the mags and dealers were saying. At that first Scalford, I was blown away by a system that comprised some ancient speakers, a couple of 'old-fashioned' valve amps and a disco turntable (sorry, Marco!). At subsequent shows, I found that the systems I enjoyed the most often had similar components. I was inspired to try things like SPU cartridges and step-up transformers ... stuff that hardly ever gets a mention in the UK hifi press. Last year I was stunned by a field-coil cartridge's performance. I can go on and highlight specific instances where a component or system or exhibitor has influenced my 'journey' and inspired me. Yes, I find some of the Scalford systems to be not to my taste, but every year I've found something there to get me thinking. Oftentimes, it's the music! But overall, I do find it inspirational ... maybe it's because I'm still learning ... not yet jaded, not heard it all before? :lol:
Haselsh1
26-10-2014, 11:59
Heard a very expensive, active Naim SBL system playing 'Hotel california' that was as dull as dishwater. The mids just didn't project and were very flat. He thought it was amazing so there was no way I was going to say anything.
It must of been 20 odd years ago that I heard that system but it's only recently that I realised how good Hotel california can sound.
I remember going back twenty years or so and getting a listen to the Naim active system and it was atrocious to the point of me making an excuse and leaving the shop. Two weeks after that I got a chance to listen to a Linn active system playing Bowie's 'Lets Dance' and it was a complete revelation. I absolutely loved it. When I got back home and played my own system I realised just how different valves and transistors actually are.
Haselsh1
26-10-2014, 12:02
It's the old 'better' vs 'different' debate. Scalford is interesting in that respect, and I have found my visits there to be quite inspirational in coming to a realisation about what I want from a collection of boxes. One of my hifi buddies has a good set of ears and delights in giving a forensic explanation of what is right and wrong with the presentation of a system. Meanwhile, I'm sat there, not listening to him, thinking 'Flippin' 'eck, that's Frank Sinatra singing in the room ... right there in front of me ... wow!' :lol:
Yeah, I am a firm believer in the better versus different debate. I often find it very difficult to determine what is better and what is merely different because in most instances, it is simply different.
Yeah, I am a firm believer in the better versus different debate. I often find it very difficult to determine what is better and what is merely different because in most instances, it is simply different.
Thing is we are talking about serious set-ups where it is not just different it just doesn't sound very good at all. My benchmark for adequate is something like those little Denon mini-systems. Not real hi-fi but you can enjoy listening to them on their own terms. I've heard £15K+ systems that were just not pleasant to listen to at all.
awkwardbydesign
28-10-2014, 15:12
I once went to someone's house and heard his much lauded set up, lozenge MF amp, Arcam CDP, through PMC GB1's and thought how totally mundane and not overly impressive it was.
I didn't tell him mind.....
I like your new equipment list " and stupidly heavy torroidal thing". It is, isn't it?
But back on track(ish), I remember reading an article about hearing ability; it said something like - all babies are born with the ability to learn any language, but as they learn one of them, certain neural paths are shut off as others are strengthened, so the ability to differentiate between certain sounds is lost. Which explains why (some) Japanese cannot hear the difference between "L" and "R". Velly solly. They literally CAN'T hear the difference.
If this is true, then I suspect that we all have similar mechanisms in play, on a neurological level, maybe less extreme but still there. And if you add actual hearing differences, measurable ones such as my wife and I have (my hearing has an HF peak while hers dips), then our differing experiences of the same systems are hardly surprising. My "wow" is your "meh". And this is without differences in taste or culture! In fact I am amazed anyone ever agrees about any sounds.
Cue cable wars! Recently 3 of us listened to power cable differences; we all heard the changes, and VERY roughly agreed on the types of changes, but our preferences were totally different. My "harsh and sibilant" was another man's "clear and revealing"! We all agreed that the HF changed, but not what it changed to. And I listen to "weird drony shit" not "banal pop". So no chance of liking the same type of system. As an example, I have never heard Focal or MBL speakers I could stand!
I shall go and lie down in a darkened room now. And listen to weird drony shit :zzz:
anthonyTD
28-10-2014, 16:26
Interesting post!
A...
I like your new equipment list " and stupidly heavy torroidal thing". It is, isn't it?
But back on track(ish), I remember reading an article about hearing ability; it said something like - all babies are born with the ability to learn any language, but as they learn one of them, certain neural paths are shut off as others are strengthened, so the ability to differentiate between certain sounds is lost. Which explains why (some) Japanese cannot hear the difference between "L" and "R". Velly solly. They literally CAN'T hear the difference.
If this is true, then I suspect that we all have similar mechanisms in play, on a neurological level, maybe less extreme but still there. And if you add actual hearing differences, measurable ones such as my wife and I have (my hearing has an HF peak while hers dips), then our differing experiences of the same systemsare hardly surprising. My "wow" is your "meh". And this is without differences in taste or culture! In fact I am amazed anyone ever agrees about any sounds.
Cue cable wars! Recently 3 of us listened to power cable differences; we all heard the changes, and VERY roughly agreed on the types of changes, but our preferences were totally different. My "harsh and sibilant" was another man's "clear and revealing"! We all agreed that the HF changed, but not what it changed to. And I listen to "weird drony shit" not "banal pop". So no chance of liking the same type of system. As an example, I have never heard Focal or MBL speakers I could stand!
I shall go and lie down in a darkened room now. And listen to weird drony shit :zzz:
I shall go and lie down in a darkened room now. And listen to weird drony shit :zzz:
If you haven't got it already I recommend this to you - Circle (Ex-Falcon) 'Leviatan':
http://www.metal-archives.com/images/4/0/4/2/404201.jpeg?3734
http://hangout.altsounds.com/reviews/166082-review-circle-falcon-leviatan-album.html
jandl100
28-10-2014, 16:42
As an example, I have never heard Focal or MBL speakers I could stand!
How dare you mention Focal and MBL speakers in the same sentence! :steam: -- Hifi and music, respectively. :D
Tell them it is shit....as long as he likes what he hears that's what counts.
Floyddroid
03-11-2014, 11:34
Mmm, difficult one. Better to say nowt methinks and avoid alcohol!
You are invited over to another hifi buffs gaff for a bit of socializing and to listen to a selection of music on his or her megabucks system. Whilst sitting there listening to some choons it occurs to you that your own modest system, which cost a pittance in comparison to the sparkly gem currently strutting its stuff in front of you, comes very close to, is on a par, or performs better than what you are listening to. Do you say something and risk pained feelings and crushed egos, or do you just slink away into the night with a smug and satisfied expression on your face? I've been in this position twice and admit that I have said nada to the people involved.
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