View Full Version : Pre-amp suggestions/advice
One of my next purchases will be a pre-amplifier.
My current system comprises of the following:
Modified SL1200 Mk II feeding a Graham Slee Reflex M phono stage
Pioneer PD-S703 or Arcam Alpha 7SE
Arcam Alpha 8R (pretending to be a pre-amp)
Graham Slee Proprius mono block amps.
Cyrus CLS70 speakers.
I want to replace the Alpha 8R with something more appropriate, and if I am honest I don't want to spend £1600 on a Graham Slee Majestic DAC/Pre Amp. It's a bit too much for my future commitments.
I have been looking at active pre-amps, but don't have a particular preference for new or second hand. Value for money, whilst obtaining a good level of sound quality is my main driver.
However, I have never heard many of the pre-amps I have just spotted on eBay, such as the Musical Fidelity A3CR, A308CR and the P100. There is also an Exposure XVII, not to mention the Project Pre-box RS.
I'd like a remote, but don't want to worry too much about little fingers getting burnt on valves, so I think a SS pre would be better for me.
Dual mono seems readily available as well.
Any suggestions for something that would work well, and is potentially the audio bargain of a lifetime? ;)
Balanced outputs would be nice, but not essential.
Sugden make some nice pre's, and there is a lovely Consonance going in the sales thread at moment. It is valve, but they are pretty well protected.
Oldpinkman
23-10-2014, 07:28
Regarding you enquiry today by PM about Pips (to which I have replied) - but now viewing this thread - you sure like to keep your options grapeshot wide open
Neither Pip has balanced outputs - Pip 1 doesn't even have bloody RCA's (except for the phono input)
Neither has a remote
Although Pip 2 has a "passive" mode - where it bypasses the x10 line stage of the "active" version it is a proper buffered design (ie not just a bit of wire with a variable resistor subject to variable HF roll-off if there is any sort of capacitance in the interconnects)
They are, to be fair, entirely free of child-frying valves
I know this won't apply, since you have even less patience than I do, but if you can wait a bit, the Pip doctor is fairly sure new leds will fix the turbulence on Pip 2, (just before he departed for the States) - so I could have it back before Christmas, and if you would like I can post you Pip 1 for a longer listen than the hour or so we had this summer. Pip 2 is better, but they are more alike than many would have you believe (fundamentally the same amplifier design), and similarly different from most of the competition.
(It was a very good barbecue after all... ;) )
Hi Kevin,
I'd like a remote, but don't want to worry too much about little fingers getting burnt on valves, so I think a SS pre would be better for me.
The majority of valve preamps have their valves, placed horizontally safely inside the casing, so you can rule out little fingers getting burnt. If you’re interested primarily in out-and-out sound quality, then a Croft preamp should most certainly be on your list, but you can kiss goodbye to remote control or balanced outputs - you do get a superb phono stage thrown in for ‘free’, though! ;)
Marco.
Does the croft exist with a single volume control?
I can adjust the balance (if required) on my mono block amps.
I guess that the twin controls keeps it dual mono?
The balanced output isn't necessary, as I currently have RCA to XLR leads made up.
I could also live without a remote volume control. It just means getting up from the sofa more often.
Thanks for the suggestions though.
The Croft 25 R could be a good contender, but I am not sure I would go for the phono stage version. I am quite happy with the Reflex M.
Does the croft exist with a single volume control?
I can adjust the balance (if required) on my mono block amps.
I guess that the twin controls keeps it dual mono?
Yes it does, but Glenn could build you one with a single volume control, no problem.
Thanks for the suggestions though.
The Croft 25 R could be a good contender, but I am not sure I would go for the phono stage version. I am quite happy with the Reflex M.
No worries. I just didn’t want you to dismiss valve preamps because of your concern about ‘burnt fingers’, as with Croft preamps (and many other valve designs), it’s a non-issue. You may also be shocked and stunned at just how musically wide-open and enjoyable a hand-built, totally hardwired valve preamp sounds, compared with pretty much any SS design.
Marco.
jandl100
23-10-2014, 09:07
From your list of possibles - MF 308CR pre-amp ... I've had one of those. :zzz: Amazingly boring, although I have seen some folk describe it as neutral. :scratch: And I guess it is, tonally - but the dynamics get smoothed over, imo.
MF A3CR is better, imo.
So many pre-amps to choose from! Best of luck. :)
This NuForce looks good value http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NUFORCE-P8-preamp-boxed-/281451146965?pt=UK_AudioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiF i_Amplifiers&hash=item4187cbaed5
Sound is very detailed and open but not harsh, but a bit lightweight. (No pre is perfect, you have to choose the best balance of pros and cons that suit you).
It's a dealer (Emporium :thumbsup:) so you can return it if it doesn't suit you.
Personally, I'd avoid Cyrus (in case you thought of synergy with your speakers) - I like a lot of Cyrus kit but their pre-amps are the weak point of their range, imo. I'd say similar for Quad gear.
This Polish passive pre is balanced and has remote as an option, and has iirc been praised on this forum.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BALANCED-passive-preamp-preamplifier-48-Stepped-attenuator-/121276258089?pt=US_Home_Audio_Amplifiers_Preamps&hash=item1c3ca0d729
Oldpinkman
23-10-2014, 10:13
+1 for forget Quad pre-amps
Regarding avoiding a croft phono stage, it is inconceivable that you would use a Pip with another phonostage. It would be like buying a ferrari and fitting someone else's engine. So if you are serious about that dabble, then expect to have a phono stage to flog.
:eek:
The Black Adder
23-10-2014, 11:43
I once had the Quad QC range pre-amp... the one with the little micro valve inside. The sound was nice... er, just nice. Nothing astounding but it was... nice!
Assembly issues... Yes, a few. The problems I had (and others) was that the transformer used to hum inside the case, even after I 'tightened' the bolts to the chassis as well as tightened the bolts that held the board to the chassis... It also has a balance control which is fundamentally redundant to the target market and I had that bypassed. The balance was also 'off' balance slightly when at the notch.
Most of these issues might have just been a one off though... or an early unit maybe?
I'd have another one in a small system simply because they look great with the olde fashioned vented lids etc. Plus I'd have it fettled. But the single valve that were fitted were hard wired and are apparently hard to find now so not sure if Quad have changed their design at all.
For me you already mentioned the best option in your first post , the Project RS pre , don't let the Pro-ject badge put you off, this is a wonderful preamp.
It is a fully Balanced circuit (no line balancing trannies or balanced IC's) has a remote for power, volume and input selection , Has a value output stage
but is fully enclosed so as safe as anything else ,is amazing value and sounds great, I have compared mine against my Sonic Frontiers line 2 pre and it
is a very close call sound wise also I remember reading a write up on the wam where it was compared to a Graaf 13.5b II and again gave little away to
the much more expensive pre. As for a Pip2 they were great 20 years ago and I love PT ,but unless you wear tinted specs its not hard to equal it for a lot
lot less than people ask for them on the SH market
have fun choosing
cheers
Paul
puddlesplasher
24-10-2014, 19:10
If you are interested I have Talk Electronics pre with power supply and mono amps for sale. These are Hurricane/ Thunder 5 series. I see you have Exposure on your list and I think these have a similar sound but are a lot better.
I would only be interested in the preamp. I'm not sure you would be willing to split?
I've put a cheeky bid on an Exposure XVII, but I don't expect to win.
I have heard that they are pretty good, even if they don't actually offer a balanced output.
Just checked on my bid, and the amp is no longer listed. :eek:
Haselsh1
29-10-2014, 16:07
Personally I'd go with Marco and a Croft design. The amount of detail this thing uncovers is staggering and you do get that beautiful phono stage. OK so it is damn frustrating with those bloody awful dual volume pots but let's face it, you're not not gonna better it for the money.
Has anybody heard a Pro-Ject Pre RS in action?
It seems a bit cheaper, but how good is it compared to the 25 R?
I did read your post with interest.
The Croft 25R gets a good write up as well.
Definitely got a shortlist now.
Owners opinions are always useful.
Comparisons help too.
It's one of the problems of living in France, not being able to audition before you buy.
Sales over the Internet certainly helps, as you are protected by law under the new regs.
All I need to do now is wait for a couple of mails back from some of the suppliers.
Currently, I am leaning towards the Project Pre RS. It seems to be well reviewed, and is quite reasonably priced.
Of course, the Croft 25R is no slouch either, but the lack of remote and dual volume make it slightly less user friendly.
Croft will build the 25R with a single volume pot, which then changes the situation slightly.
Knowing how a valve or SS pre would work with my amps would help. A few comparative views would also help.
The Halo P5 has also been mentioned as a contender, but I am not sure I want a pre/DAC/phono combo, as I don't think the Pre will be as good as the Croft or Project. I guess either the Croft or the Project will work well.
Just ordered a Project Pre RS. It has dual mono, balanced inputs/outputs, a remote and many happy users.
I just couldn't justify the additional spend for a 25R, possibly with slightly better sound quality but less features.
The Project is supposed to be pretty good, so I think it will do nicely.
Haselsh1
31-10-2014, 15:48
The Croft is lovely and warm and toasty but very unfriendly in use. It uncovers staggering levels of detail even though I used mine with Audiolab monoblocks. Unless you are an avid Croft fan, I think you made the correct decision.
Sovereign
31-10-2014, 17:12
Nice one Wonky
It's early days yet, and the preamp has had a couple of hours through it. However, it sounds pretty good.
Thanks for the suggestion Paul.
Apprently, a linear PSU improves things, as does a bit of tube rolling.
https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3954/15556823410_89165be170_z_d.jpg
And it's sounding splendid.
It's had a few good user reviews, that Project. Would you say it sounds at all 'valvy' in presentation? If you listen to an 80s digital recording does it smooth it off and warm it up a bit? Not sure if you get what I mean but can't think of any other way of putting it.
Oldpinkman
08-11-2014, 22:54
Expecting the 2 back before Christmas. I'll post you the 1 for a proper listen. Be interested to hear your thoughts. :cool:
Martin,
I'll dig out some 80's/90's digital tomorrow and let you know. I am quite impressed with this box, as it does not seem "too valvey" at the moment.
Expecting the 2 back before Christmas. I'll post you the 1 for a proper listen. Be interested to hear your thoughts. :cool:
I'll have to make up some adapters, as my amp connectors are now XLR. What would I need? RCA to XLR?
It's had a few good user reviews, that Project. Would you say it sounds at all 'valvy' in presentation? If you listen to an 80s digital recording does it smooth it off and warm it up a bit? Not sure if you get what I mean but can't think of any other way of putting it.
In my opinion, it does not sound overly "valvey." Sure, there is a valve influence there, but I like what it is doing. The soundstage is much bigger than my older amplification, and there seems to be much more detail. A bargain in my opinion.
There is a tiny bit of sibilance present at the moment, so it's crying out for a decent linear PSU.
I must also acquaint myself with this "tube rolling" malarkey, as Voskhod Rocket 6N23P have been recommended to me.
Hi Kevin , nice one, glad you are enjoying the project, I agree on the PS would probably be a nice upgrade ,I know the project one is quite expensive ,I think this is
how they claw some profit back but you could argue that the pre is such good value in the first place that the combined price for pre/PS is still a bit of a billy bargain
and I cant think of much that competes even at a grand. I hope your taking full advantage of its balanced circuit and have got your power amps as close as poss to
your speakers with uber short speaker cables and long balanced interconnects I find that makes a nice improvement with monoblock power amps.
Perhaps you could do this little wonder pre the service of a review in strokes of genius as it rightly deserves one and I am rubbish at that sort of thing.
cheers
Paul
PS I would avoid those rocket valves like the plague but if you must try them PM me as I have eight of em doing nothing:lol:
Thanks for the tip off on this pre Paul.
What valves would you Suggest? To be honest, there does not seem to be much wrong with the ones fitted.
If different valves bring out more, then this is something I am looking forwards too.
Hi Kevin,
I haven't changed the valves in my rs pre but my sonic frontiers uses the same valves and the best I have tried in that are nos Amperex and Siemens 7380 variants
but these are mighty expensive and frankly the difference between them and modern variants is small, my first upgrade would be power supply for sure.
those rocket 6n23p's seem to be very microphonic to me and I am not convinced they are a true 6922 alternative
cheers
Paul
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