The pip hospital

[Oldpinkman]

Well, my pip2 was declared proper sick, and has departed with Dr Owen in the pip ambulance bound for the pip hospital. The story is that I moaned at Owen about how hard it was to access the boards on my pip 1,how tiresome the din sockets were, and how I feared the leds were causing noise and needed replacing and why did he put the design in such stupid casework, I was going to recase it in a conventional chassis with rca connections.

But what if I screwed up? So he found me some old pip2 boards in the loft, spare pip1case and toroidal, and I built me a backup pip. As with everything with me I left it to the last minute before my holiday tour to see cagey and Gordon before finishing building it. On final tests, it made a loud banging noise on one channel intermittently and one of my newly acquired quad esl 63s went stone dead during the last banging episode.
I panicked, quarantined the pip2,took pip 1on holiday instead, and although I fixed the quad, left the pip for the doctor who knows it best.

The sillyscope he bought down this weekend was no help cos there's no bloody voltage to measure on a transconductance design, so he's carted it off to intensive care. At least it had the decency to fault while he was down here. Hopefully it will be back soon. Nobody else can fix them :eek:

Edit: with regard to YnWans later post, I should point out the dead Quad was entirely coincidental, and when I repaired it, it turned out that a wire had come loose due to a manufacturing fault which only showed up after 25 years service on a Quad loudspeaker, and it was nothing whatever to do with untested non-production boards having a fault which is now being investigated and will be rectified by an engineer who knows what he's doing :)

[Andrei]

Dig a hole one foot deep in the garden, plant the pip and wait for the rains

[Oldpinkman]

Dig a hole one foot deep in the garden, plant the pip and wait for the rains

Works with apples - eventually. And here, we don't have to wait for rain! :(

[Gordon Steadman]

Works with apples - eventually. And here, we don't have to wait for rain! :(

I'll have to try that. If I plant one of my spare Macs, will I get a few more?

I guess a Mac should be alright in the rain:eyebrows:

[YNWaN]

I'm afraid that this tale of woe, together with others in a similar vein, just lead me to conclude that the Pip was a fundamentally 'flaky' design that is prone to unreliability (a bit of a Pink Triangle theme).

[Oldpinkman]

I'm afraid that this tale of woe, together with others in a similar vein, just lead me to conclude that the Pip was a fundamentally 'flaky' design that is prone to unreliability (a bit of a Pink Triangle theme).

The amplifier is 20 years old. Most Quad amps need servicing after 20 years (even if not to the point of failure) and they were usually associated with being built like a brick shit-house. I was keen to ensure that the AOS public were aware of the fact that there is no official service facility for these now that Pink have disappeared.

[paskinn]

Pink made fine sounding products, often with real originality and design flair. This was impressive in an industry full of drab ''me too'' equipment. For instance, the Linn LP 12, however good, never had an original design idea in two decades. But it did work!
My Pip 11 wasn't especially unreliable; I sold it because the sound quality , while good, could be equalled without all the fuss. Pink made great turntables, especially the Anniversary, but we all know they were a bit flaky. You just had to accept that.
The old joke was that the audio world really needed decks designed by Arthur...but manufactured by SME. In all, they were a great little firm in a sea of mediocrity. But largely ruined by dodgy build quality. I do have a soft spot for them.

[Oldpinkman]

Pink made fine sounding products, often with real originality and design flair. This was impressive in an industry full of drab ''me too'' equipment. For instance, the Linn LP 12, however good, never had an original design idea in two decades. But it did work!
My Pip 11 wasn't especially unreliable; I sold it because the sound quality , while good, could be equalled without all the fuss. Pink made great turntables, especially the Anniversary, but we all know they were a bit flaky. You just had to accept that.
The old joke was that the audio world really needed decks designed by Arthur...but manufactured by SME. In all, they were a great little firm in a sea of mediocrity. But largely ruined by dodgy build quality. I do have a soft spot for them.

That's a fair summary - although I am slightly surprised by your Pip comments, both as to equalling sound quality and fuss (what fuss?). (And what equalled it?) AK has made similar comments and then keeps hankering to get a Pip back into production, and his pile of service pips repaired. He hasn't yet played me anything he seriously puts forward as better, although that is as much to do with disorganisation (both of us) as it is a lack of serious candidates. I was happy with Pip 1 - even though I knew the official legend was Pip 2 was better (pretty obviously I'd used both, but never head to head). It was good enough - and others I had tried when it was in a sorry state - were not good enough and I stopped listening to records. I rather think Pip 2 is indeed that bit better, but need to get it running for more than 30 minutes at a time before going on a serious mission (out of a curiosity piqued by forum comments) to see how it compares with more recent amplifiers.

Once I have it running properly I will try it again properly on batteries (no need for an elaborate power supply to float charge the batteries for this purpose). Its designer doesn't expect them to make much difference - since the Pip's design builds a lot of the power supply and regulation into the amplifier design and makes it essentially immune to supply rail noise, and it has buckets of capacity drawing only about 100 milliamps. As I have mentioned more than a few times, the battery supply on Pip was essential to get the overall design pricing up to a level where it stopped making losses. It may be overdoing it to say sonic benefits were incidental, but they were less fundamental than the legend we created would have you believe. I remember Neals prose on the subject in the owner manual...

What would be seriously interesting would be to try his new power supply design on it (and the 405-2). I say "new" it was first mentioned when I was at Pink in 1982, and was only referred to in cryptic terms even to me (not that I would have understood the maths anyway). But it has only recently actually been made to work and patented.

But for now I need to wait for the patient to be discharged - and that is unlikely to be much before Christmas, since the Doctor is off to the States.

At least I have fired up its designer to look at domestic audio amplifier design again - one day... :cool:

[DSJR]

The amplifier is 20 years old. Most Quad amps need servicing after 20 years (even if not to the point of failure) and they were usually associated with being built like a brick shit-house. I was keen to ensure that the AOS public were aware of the fact that there is no official service facility for these now that Pink have disappeared.

Quad PREAMPS usually need service after over thirty years Richard :) My AVI is nearing its twentieth anniversary and is as fine as the day it was made. I know the Pip designer is a good friend of yours, but I feel, after personal experience, that perhaps you should take a few steps back and ask yourself why others don't make such an 'unusual' design. It won't be because they can't, as that would be insulting to many fully qualified engineers who LOVE their music and design accordingly, but just maybe, there are design issues with this circuit topology that have prevented it being used outside of PT, who do have a reputation of using the end customers as a testbed for use and reliability.

Just bury the lot as recommended and buy something better and universally sensible and consistent like a Croft 25/7 - utterly reliable, no special needs in use and they STAY that way for decades!

So there :)

[Oldpinkman]

Quad PREAMPS usually need service after over thirty years Richard :) My AVI is nearing its twentieth anniversary and is as fine as the day it was made. I know the Pip designer is a good friend of yours, but I feel, after personal experience, that perhaps you should take a few steps back and ask yourself why others don't make such an 'unusual' design. It won't be because they can't, as that would be insulting to many fully qualified engineers who LOVE their music and design accordingly, but just maybe, there are design issues with this circuit topology that have prevented it being used outside of PT, who do have a reputation of using the end customers as a testbed for use and reliability.

Just bury the lot as recommended and buy something better and universally sensible and consistent like a Croft 25/7 - utterly reliable, no special needs in use and they STAY that way for decades!

So there :)

The amp is so much better than anything else, particularly the dull and lifeless quad pre-amp I have no intention of burying it when I can get mine serviced and I have 2 of them.

I would note that this thread started with me knocking up a spare out of untested boards from the designers loft, and was not a production version, although I wouldn't seek to pretend that reliability was an issue at pink.

The quad speaker that failed was due to a poor solder joint by quad!

However, whilst I am fortunate enough to enjoy guaranteed service Backup on my pips, other pip owners, and prospective owners are unlikely to be as fortunate. :doh:

[WishfulAudio]

I also have really enjoyed my PIP2 and as people have said it is past its first flush of youth.
It now needs a check-up, and again options are not obvious. Any suggestions?

I was intrigued about the thought of replacing the PIP2 battery power supply with a modern mains unit, has it been tried?

:( WishfulAudio

[paskinn]

It's true' of course, that Pink Triangle is an ex-company, pining for the Fiords and so on. But Arthur is, fortunately, far from an ex-designer and manufacturer. Legally he has no obligations, but morally you could make a case that he should arrange service for his older products.

Because if they aren't supported, why should anyone assume that current products will have a long service life? It's good, responsible, business to support your products. I would have thought Arthur would have learnt that from the fiasco the first time Pink shut-down and they tried not to honour their guarantees. It's just bad business practice in a hobbyist industry with strong word of mouth traditions.

[Spectral Morn]

Contact Funk Firm (Arthur's current business, Pink Triangle was his company) and ask who they/he recommend to service old Pink Triangle products.


http://www.thefunkfirm.co.uk/



Regards Neil

[PaulStewart]

Well, my pip2 was declared proper sick, and has departed with Dr Owen <Snip> he's carted it off to intensive care. At least it had the decency to fault while he was down here. Hopefully it will be back soon. Nobody else can fix them :eek:


According to Richard (Oldpinkman) Owen is the only one who can fix them. Despite Richard sort of portraying Athur and Owen as some form of HiFi Jesus and John the baptist (or maybe Abbott and Costello) I'm sure others can fix them. However, good a design as it was, there are better now and replacement of what is a bit of a flaky technology might be a good idea. Why not try PM'ing Pinkie to see if he can suggest anyone.

[Yomanze]

The amplifier is 20 years old. Most Quad amps need servicing after 20 years (even if not to the point of failure) and they were usually associated with being built like a brick shit-house. I was keen to ensure that the AOS public were aware of the fact that there is no official service facility for these now that Pink have disappeared.

My Krell KRC-3 is also 20yrs old, still works flawlessly with all original parts.

It has a special trick too like the Pip in that the gain stages work in the current domain and not voltage...

Some designs "eat" parts around them and others are designed with massively over specced components.

[Arkless Electronics]

I also have really enjoyed my PIP2 and as people have said it is past its first flush of youth.
It now needs a check-up, and again options are not obvious. Any suggestions?

I was intrigued about the thought of replacing the PIP2 battery power supply with a modern mains unit, has it been tried?

:( WishfulAudio

I can probably help with both the repair/servicing and make a very high quality mains power supply for it. PM me if interested.

[Oldpinkman]

I also have really enjoyed my PIP2 and as people have said it is past its first flush of youth.
It now needs a check-up, and again options are not obvious. Any suggestions?

I was intrigued about the thought of replacing the PIP2 battery power supply with a modern mains unit, has it been tried?

:( WishfulAudio

My advice is if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I know of 11 Pips (8 of them Pip 2's). Only 3 of them are working properly. 2 belong to me, and one belongs to Owen Jones. To be fair, I don't know that one of them, which was advertised on this site, but the owner had contacted me because it had a fault which blew out tweeters, hasn't been repaired. If it is not banging crashing dropping out or otherwise malfunctioning, then it no more needs a service than does Marks Krell. Most of the non-runners, are on a shelf in Arthurs factory, who keeps asking me for help getting them fixed, so well-meaning advice to consult Funk Firm is not very helpful. When I tried to get an experienced engineer, who has a well-established repair business to repair mine, before Owen sorted it out for me, he not only failed, but made circuit modifications in error. I am not saying nobody else can fix them. I am saying I know of nobody who has done so, and many that have either been damaged or just not repaired.

Replacing the battery pack, if that is knackered is VERY easy. The small control board (on the right, looking from the top) comes out with three screws and 4 wires. Where it connects to the main board your new supply needs to supply +18v, 0, -18v. Or, there is a bridge rectifier and smoothing capacitor on the main board - and just get a suitable toroidal to supply AC to the BR pins. Make sure the transformer ground is to the chassis ground, and not the star ground points. The big (100 ohm/ 1 watt?) resistor is to go in series with the switch light if you want that. Owen and I are using it in that format. A great deal of the "power supply" is integral to the amp. There is separate voltage regulation on the front of each gain stage. And the transconductance design effectively means that any voltage ripple on the supply rail is attentuated to "vanishing" on the output. So it shouldn't really need a fancy power supply. The Battery supply, as I have said many times, was primarily to justify the necessary price hike.

So, if it aint broke, don't fix it. If it is broke - not working - not usable, then I guess you have to ask Paul Stewart which amp and phono stage he recommends as better, since he is confident he can assist you. I am not clear when he last heard a Pip 2, or what he has directly compared it with, since he declined to reply when I asked him, but he uses valves and a SUT for his system, and therefore maybe he has different tastes to me. There must surely be plenty of excellent alternatives - I just didn't find any. But then I didn't look very far, cos I'm a lucky b***ard and knew someone who could sort me out with a Pip instead.

And I'm very happy with it.

Be careful - if you have a runner, don't wreck it. :)

[Arkless Electronics]

My advice is if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I know of 11 Pips (8 of them Pip 2's). Only 3 of them are working properly. 2 belong to me, and one belongs to Owen Jones. To be fair, I don't know that one of them, which was advertised on this site, but the owner had contacted me because it had a fault which blew out tweeters, hasn't been repaired. If it is not banging crashing dropping out or otherwise malfunctioning, then it no more needs a service than does Marks Krell. Most of the non-runners, are on a shelf in Arthurs factory, who keeps asking me for help getting them fixed, so well-meaning advice to consult Funk Firm is not very helpful. When I tried to get an experienced engineer, who has a well-established repair business to repair mine, before Owen sorted it out for me, he not only failed, but made circuit modifications in error. I am not saying nobody else can fix them. I am saying I know of nobody who has done so, and many that have either been damaged or just not repaired.

Replacing the battery pack, if that is knackered is VERY easy. The small control board (on the right, looking from the top) comes out with three screws and 4 wires. Where it connects to the main board your new supply needs to supply +18v, 0, -18v. Or, there is a bridge rectifier and smoothing capacitor on the main board - and just get a suitable toroidal to supply AC to the BR pins. Make sure the transformer ground is to the chassis ground, and not the star ground points. The big (100 ohm/ 1 watt?) resistor is to go in series with the switch light if you want that. Owen and I are using it in that format. A great deal of the "power supply" is integral to the amp. There is separate voltage regulation on the front of each gain stage. And the transconductance design effectively means that any voltage ripple on the supply rail is attentuated to "vanishing" on the output. So it shouldn't really need a fancy power supply. The Battery supply, as I have said many times, was primarily to justify the necessary price hike.

So, if it aint broke, don't fix it. If it is broke - not working - not usable, then I guess you have to ask Paul Stewart which amp and phono stage he recommends as better, since he is confident he can assist you. I am not clear when he last heard a Pip 2, or what he has directly compared it with, since he declined to reply when I asked him, but he uses valves and a SUT for his system, and therefore maybe he has different tastes to me. There must surely be plenty of excellent alternatives - I just didn't find any. But then I didn't look very far, cos I'm a lucky b***ard and knew someone who could sort me out with a Pip instead.

And I'm very happy with it.

Be careful - if you have a runner, don't wreck it. :)

Not me!
If you recall I turned down fixing yours simply because you told me they had been "got at" by others trying to repair them.... The last thing one needs when trying to fix stuff is to have to guess what someone else has done to it before and which faults are the originals and which caused by later attempts to fix it! I have had many successes with equipment that is meant to be unrepairable due to such unique circuit design or unobtainium components ;)

[Oldpinkman]

Ah

We crossed in the post Jez. You are certainly someone I personally would turn to for assistance or repairs if I didn't have other sources. Without wishing to name and shame, the guy who attempted a repair on mine was well qualified, and to be fair to him declined normally to work on solid state hifi amps, but did so as a special favour because I was desperate (valve hifi, solid state or valve guitar amps were his normal business). Owen was allegedly (according to AK) untraceable at that stage (even though he was actually in the same house he had been in for the last 20 years - including when working on Integral for PT)

The ones you offered to repair were the ones on Arthurs shelf. The man other members, well intentioned, have suggested could help. Its a bit of a sad state of affairs, and I am not prepared to go into details, but pretty obviously there is a reason that whilst I am mates with both OJ and AK, and they are not on each others Christmas card list. And that rather leaves Pips in limbo - tragically. I am working on bridging the relationship, but it ain't a quick fix - not least because both have moved on to other things. In a way Paul Stewart is right. As with so much in this throw away world, it may be cheaper to buy a replacement than incur the cost of repairs - which can run to a lot of hours.

If its working it may be easy to work on. But if its working why repair it? If its not working, without a schematic - there is a trail of corpses out there as I alluded to. That in no way implies any criticism of your abilities - its just the historical situation.

[PaulStewart]

In a way Paul Stewart is right. As with so much in this throw away world, it may be cheaper to buy a replacement than incur the cost of repairs - which can run to a lot of hours.

You do love to misrepresent people Richard, I hate anything throwaway, my Tannoy/Loclwoods are from 1968, Leak Stereofetic from the seventies my Art Audio Pre and power amp are 12 years old. What I like and recommend, is good, sound engineering practice thathas been well made mechanically. I avoid the use of flaky designs and poor construction quality, this is of course the antithesis of PT. You pays your money..... The only thing that has needed a repair is the tuner, because it is simple and well made, the diagnosis took minutes and the repair the same at a cost of £30.00.

[Arkless Electronics]

Ah

We crossed in the post Jez. You are certainly someone I personally would turn to for assistance or repairs if I didn't have other sources. Without wishing to name and shame, the guy who attempted a repair on mine was well qualified, and to be fair to him declined normally to work on solid state hifi amps, but did so as a special favour because I was desperate (valve hifi, solid state or valve guitar amps were his normal business). Owen was allegedly (according to AK) untraceable at that stage (even though he was actually in the same house he had been in for the last 20 years - including when working on Integral for PT)

The ones you offered to repair were the ones on Arthurs shelf. The man other members, well intentioned, have suggested could help. Its a bit of a sad state of affairs, and I am not prepared to go into details, but pretty obviously there is a reason that whilst I am mates with both OJ and AK, and they are not on each others Christmas card list. And that rather leaves Pips in limbo - tragically. I am working on bridging the relationship, but it ain't a quick fix - not least because both have moved on to other things. In a way Paul Stewart is right. As with so much in this throw away world, it may be cheaper to buy a replacement than incur the cost of repairs - which can run to a lot of hours.

If its working it may be easy to work on. But if its working why repair it? If its not working, without a schematic - there is a trail of corpses out there as I alluded to. That in no way implies any criticism of your abilities - its just the historical situation.

Indeed if it is in fact working then way repair it? I took it that there must be issues with the unit or the OP wouldn't have asked about having it serviced but I may have misunderstood :)

So I take it that AK has around 8 or so units wanting repair? Surely they can't all of been "got at"? If AK wants them all fixing as a job lot then that may be a possibility but it would not be cheap. I would have to reverse engineer them to get proper schematics for a start but if there's 8 or so ,and they are so well regarded and rare, then it may be worth it (? Weren't they big money when new?). One working one to take readings from would be most useful of course! I dare say that if there's several to compare, and once I've got a few going, then even the "got at" ones should be repairable as I'd have some that are correct to compare them to.

[Spectral Morn]

My advice is if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I know of 11 Pips (8 of them Pip 2's). Only 3 of them are working properly. 2 belong to me, and one belongs to Owen Jones. To be fair, I don't know that one of them, which was advertised on this site, but the owner had contacted me because it had a fault which blew out tweeters, hasn't been repaired. If it is not banging crashing dropping out or otherwise malfunctioning, then it no more needs a service than does Marks Krell. Most of the non-runners, are on a shelf in Arthurs factory, who keeps asking me for help getting them fixed, so well-meaning advice to consult Funk Firm is not very helpful. When I tried to get an experienced engineer, who has a well-established repair business to repair mine, before Owen sorted it out for me, he not only failed, but made circuit modifications in error. I am not saying nobody else can fix them. I am saying I know of nobody who has done so, and many that have either been damaged or just not repaired.

Replacing the battery pack, if that is knackered is VERY easy. The small control board (on the right, looking from the top) comes out with three screws and 4 wires. Where it connects to the main board your new supply needs to supply +18v, 0, -18v. Or, there is a bridge rectifier and smoothing capacitor on the main board - and just get a suitable toroidal to supply AC to the BR pins. Make sure the transformer ground is to the chassis ground, and not the star ground points. The big (100 ohm/ 1 watt?) resistor is to go in series with the switch light if you want that. Owen and I are using it in that format. A great deal of the "power supply" is integral to the amp. There is separate voltage regulation on the front of each gain stage. And the transconductance design effectively means that any voltage ripple on the supply rail is attentuated to "vanishing" on the output. So it shouldn't really need a fancy power supply. The Battery supply, as I have said many times, was primarily to justify the necessary price hike.

So, if it aint broke, don't fix it. If it is broke - not working - not usable,then I guess you have to ask Paul Stewart which amp and phono stage he recommends as better, since he is confident he can assist you. I am not clear when he last heard a Pip 2, or what he has directly compared it with, since he declined to reply when I asked him, but he uses valves and a SUT for his system, and therefore maybe he has different tastes to me. There must surely be plenty of excellent alternatives - I just didn't find any. But then I didn't look very far, cos I'm a lucky b***ard and knew someone who could sort me out with a Pip instead.

And I'm very happy with it.

Be careful - if you have a runner, don't wreck it. :)

Richard have you any idea how the first highlighted words come across ? While Arthur has no legal requirement to service or fix his past Pink Triangle designs or products designed/made under the company he historically owned/part owned, it would be the nice thing to do if known, to point folks, who bought from new (even S/H) to where they can get stuff fixed/serviced or if parts are no longer available/with no contemporary substitutes that these items can no longer be fixed.

Reading what you have written, hinted at, basically it sounds like anyone who bought Pink Triangle electronics (maybe other items in the company's history) abandon hope all who bought these and the guy who was the brains behind this stuff no longer wants to know. That is how this reads in my opinion.

How is it unhelpful to point folks to the people behind designs - the people best able to give advice or help, in terms of where stuff can be fixed ?


Re the second set of words highlighted, well that's pretty rude. Certainly seems that being rude to folks comes pretty ease to you. And by the way anyone with an opinion on Pink Triangle (or any other company/products) is free on AoS to post those thoughts, experiences here. You of course are free to reply to what's written but please do so with no attitude and pleasantly, and keep in mind that regarding Pink Triangle your views thoughts are not the only valid ones, you may have been there, been a Pink Triangle employee but many, many others have valid and useful contributions to make. Hate to say it Richard but I will, your words are not some kind of gospel on this.