Oh how I lurve the Celestion HF1300

[Gordon Steadman]

Since I nicked the mid ranges drivers from the wife's JBLs to replace the Teufel units that died, the JBLs have been sitting rather forlornly in a hallway.

So, having a spare half hour today, I turned up a couple of wooden pieces to hold a spare HF1300. They sit in the old mid range hole and the tweeter plates are blanked off.
Every speaker I have put these Celestion units in has sounded terrific. The JBLs are far better as a simple 2 way. I'm using the standard Ditton 15 crossover. The bass is crisp and more tuneful, not sure why that should be and they are thoroughly enjoyable.

I now have a surfeit of speakers and I think a thinning out is in order. I reckon the Teufels will go first as they are actually worth money. The Quads of course, are with me for life.

Just had a bloke bring a dead pair of B&W 603 S2s round. Can't imagine how he managed it but the one I have looked at has the tweeter in bits and the main driver is burnt right through the spider and the surround has crisped nicely. The crossover looks fried too. Have to trawl eBay tonight, this could cost him a bit and probably not worth it - we will see.

[spendorman]

Neat job.

If these are Ditton 15 HF1300 tweeters, you may not have the best ones. They have the small magnet. Ones in Ditton 25, Spendor BC1, BC2, BC3, B&W DM1, DM2, DM2a, DM4, Rogers LS3/6 etc. have a larger magnet.

Also interesting is the HF1400 as used in B&W DM3, it's a 1300 with an even bigger magnet.

I must have more than 10 pairs of speakers with the HF1300 in. I wonder why!

Love my Rogers BBC LS3/6, 8" Bextrene, HF1300 and HF2000.

[Gordon Steadman]

Neat job.

If these are Ditton 15 HF1300 tweeters, you may not have the best ones. They have the small magnet. Ones in Ditton 25, Spendor BC1, BC2, BC3, B&W DM1, DM2, DM2a, DM4, Rogers LS3/6 etc. have a larger magnet.

.

Ta.

I have several pairs of these but they all have the same size magnet, not sure if its big or small!!

If anyone has any ideas for the B&Ws it would help. Getting replacement drivers is going to be expensive. Two exploded tweeters, two melted yellow drivers and one crossover missing!! he was sold them like this via eBay!!! He just told me that the timing was bad as he was moving to France a few days after getting them and couldn't test them. Someone was laughing I reckon.

Do any of the smaller models use the same drivers I wonder? Might be worth buying a pair and swapping.

[spendorman]

Small magnet HF1300:

http://img.canuckaudiomart.com/uploads/large/389748-celestion_hf1300_tweetersspeakers4_ohms.jpg

Large magnet HF1300:

http://www.audiovintage.fr/wp-content/gallery/bw-dm4/imgp3486.jpg

Suspect, but not sure, small magnet, ferrite, large magnet, Alnico.

[Gordon Steadman]

Small magnet HF1300:

http://img.canuckaudiomart.com/uploads/large/389748-celestion_hf1300_tweetersspeakers4_ohms.jpg

Large magnet HF1300:

http://www.audiovintage.fr/wp-content/gallery/bw-dm4/imgp3486.jpg

Suspect, but not sure, small magnet, ferrite, large magnet, Alnico.

Thanks, small one it is. Still sounds good to me:)

[spendorman]

Yes, I have small magnet ones in Ditton 10 and Ditton 15. Prefer the Ditton 10 though, the mid of the 15 seems a bit too coloured, bass a bit loose.

I reckon that the Original 15 Ohm Ditton 10 may have been the inspiration for the LS3/5a. It had a lot in common, small cabinet, panels damped with bitumen pads, bass unit of similar size.

[walpurgis]

It's funny, whilst I love the HF2000, I find the HF1300 variable in it's chosen applications. For instance, it sounds just fine in the Ditton 15, but I find it a bit 'gritty' in the DM4 (I've owned several pairs of each). IMF and Rogers implemented it well, but in Celestion's Ditton 25 it seems to add a slight upper mid colouration. The HF1300 has a twangy resonance that becomes more obvious the lower it's crossed over, especially with a shallow roll in curve. Also, despite showing a flat response I find it can sound peaky.

[spendorman]

Well, different version of 1300 in Ditton 15 and DM4, and I reckon the HF1300 level is set a bit high in the DM4.

I also like the HF2000 too, but also needs to be crossed over not too low.

I very much like the combination of HF1300 and HF2000 in LS3/6, works very nicely, better than the just the HF2000 in the Ditton 44. I still have all these speakers.

[Wakefield Turntables]

+1 another fan here. I suggested a pair of original 15's (not XR's) to my mate who has just got back into vinyl.

[Gordon Steadman]

The strange thing is that, ignoring the Quads, I could probably live with any of the speakers I have which use this tweeter. How old is it?? Based on an earlier design I think. Where are all these developments that should make it redundant?

I find most 'modern' tweeters too sharp and bright. Most modern speakers too come to that. I have one spare pair left but I think they are a later model and they have a square (ish) flush face plate and are front fitting.

They might end up in the B&Ws if he decides he can't afford the genuine replacements. He said just get him a working pair of speakers if the bits are too expensive. He's offering a Quad 33/303 in payment.

Might go for that:)

I still regret selling my 33/50Ds

[spendorman]

The strange thing is that, ignoring the Quads, I could probably live with any of the speakers I have which use this tweeter. How old is it?? Based on an earlier design I think. Where are all these developments that should make it redundant?

I find most 'modern' tweeters too sharp and bright. Most modern speakers too come to that. I have one spare pair left but I think they are a later model and they have a square (ish) flush face plate and are front fitting.

They might end up in the B&Ws if he decides he can't afford the genuine replacements. He said just get him a working pair of speakers if the bits are too expensive. He's offering a Quad 33/303 in payment.

Might go for that:)

I still regret selling my 33/50Ds

HF1300, I believe is from A GEC design, he he! I used to work for them, but many years after this design.

http://soundup.ru/images/stories/archive/Classic/speakers/gec-genalex-fr-bcs-1851-8-aluminum-cone-speaker-1852-tweeter/gec-genalex-fr-bcs-1851-8-cone-1852-tweeter-8.jpg

The square HF1300's are probably the bigger magnet version, and 16 Ohm as used in some Rogers Export Monitors and in some Ditton 25's.

Quad 303, nice, I have four of them ranging from one of early production, to one of the last produced.

[walpurgis]

HF1300, I believe is from A GEC design, he he! I used to work for them, but many years after this design.

http://soundup.ru/images/stories/archive/Classic/speakers/gec-genalex-fr-bcs-1851-8-aluminum-cone-speaker-1852-tweeter/gec-genalex-fr-bcs-1851-8-cone-1852-tweeter-8.jpg

The square HF1300's are probably the bigger magnet version, and 15 Ohm as used in some Rogers Export Monitors and in some Ditton 25's.

Quad 303, nice, I have four of them ranging from one of early production, to one of the last produced.

Coles made a similar unit and so did Fane.

I've used the Fane, model 301 if I recall. It was a decent tweeter.

http://i61.tinypic.com/2ppiwlv.jpg

Here's the Coles.

http://i61.tinypic.com/jzcf10.jpg

[spendorman]

Coles made a similar unit and so did Fane.

The Coles unit did not sound like a 1300 to me, don't know anything about the Fane unit, did visit their factory though in the early 70's.

[Juha]

Here is my HF1300 rescue story.
This is ReVox BR 430.

Got these with blown tweeters. Put on small magnet HF1300.
The tweeters have a gentle sound. Not in your face. Very good.

Otherwise ReVox BR 430 is a well build heavy box.
There is a "Studer" sticker on the back of the woofer. This is what you call a mark of quality.

http://hoone.com/revoxbr430.jpg

[Gordon Steadman]

Nice one Juha.

The B&Ws are no longer exactly standard. Bit of a bodge job but the hard plastic makes it a bit difficult to inset stuff. HF1300/KEFb200/ original B&W sub bass unit. Sound quite decent.

Quad33/303 on it's way:)

https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3932/15368408408_fb2a0f8338_o.jpg

[Martyn Miles]

Neat job.

If these are Ditton 15 HF1300 tweeters, you may not have the best ones. They have the small magnet. Ones in Ditton 25, Spendor BC1, BC2, BC3, B&W DM1, DM2, DM2a, DM4, Rogers LS3/6 etc. have a larger magnet.

Also interesting is the HF1400 as used in B&W DM3, it's a 1300 with an even bigger magnet.

I must have more than 10 pairs of speakers with the HF1300 in. I wonder why!

Love my Rogers BBC LS3/6, 8" Bextrene, HF1300 and HF2000.

To add to 'speakers that use the HF1300', I am currently restoring a pair of Radford Bookshelf speakers. They have a lightweight Kef B139 ( according to Redford history Arthur Radford asked asked Kef to make them specially ) and the '1300.
The Bookshelves are made like battleships, with 1" Afromosia cabinets with ply baffles and back panels.
The cabinets are in for restoration and the crossovers are being checked.
It will be interesting to hear them.
Does anyone on this Forum have any experience of Radford loudspeakers ?

[Gordon Steadman]

These 'ere ex B&Ws get better and better. The top and middle is crystal clear without being in any way sharp. I just need to pad them down to bring the bass up a bit.

It seems a terrible waste of a B200 but using it as a midrange seems to keep it away from the area of bextrene quack. Nice combination with my last spare HF1300. What am I gonna do without a few in reserve?:(

[Quadraphonic]

HF1300s were considered about the best in their day, A few speaker manufacturers used them, and I have always found them interesting acoustically, in that they have the metal domes over them. Some have these glued on, others just stay on magnetically. I have a pair of both, and cannot hear a difference. What the purpose was apparently, was to enhance the top end where it begins to fall away (roll off). They certainly go very high.

They have a habit of either lasting for decades and decades, or just suddenly kicking the bucket. What saddens me is that where you want to keep a speaker original, there are not firms that now recoil units, or are there?

I use four Ditton 44s, and worry how long they will last now, but understand they had so called "everlasting rubber" surrounds for bass and mid, and certainly mine are still fine. I just wonder about the tweeters. One good thing is that celestion put the crossover point high for these things, I think 5Khz, don't quote me, I could be wrong. The point is that they have generally a lot less work to do as a result. That may well be why they so often appear second hand?

I have no experience of the Coles tweeters, which I gather some use in Dittons. How do these compare? I always admired the sweetness ad clarity of the HF1300s.

Richard

[walpurgis]

You're thinking of the HF2000. That has glued on perforated dome covers. The HF1300 has a metal front plate with a ring of angled slots mounted in front of the diaphragrm.

Whilst the HF1300 is very revealing, it has a 'hardness' to the sound that I can always hear. The HF2000 super tweeter however, is as smooth sounding as you could ask for. (and I have a nice, mint pair of late ones tucked away)

There are no Dittons that had Coles tweeters as standard. The Coles is horrible compared to the HF2000.

[Quadraphonic]

You're thinking of the HF2000. That has glued on perforated dome covers. The HF1300 has a metal front plate with a ring of angled slots mounted in front of the diaphragrm.

Whilst the HF1300 is very revealing, it has a 'hardness' to the sound that I can always hear. The HF2000 super tweeter however, is as smooth sounding as you could ask for. (and I have a nice, mint pair of late ones tucked away)

There are no Dittons that had Coles tweeters as standard. The Coles is horrible compared to the HF2000.


Ah, well spotted, I stand corrected. Thanks. As to the Coles, indeed no they were never fitted as standard, but that did not stop people putting them in when the originals blew, and even saying how much better they were. This compares to still others recapping electrolytic capacitors in the crossovers with film caps or other non suitable gems, instead of what was in originally!

Thanks,

Richard

[florin]

I bought a pair of DM2's a while back and found that it had the DW200 replaced with a driver built on the same chassis but made of polypropylene. I found it to be 750g heavier than the original DW200 so larger magnet.
Now from what I've read speakers built on bextrene drivers have some adjustment in the crossover to address some resonance issues so wondering whether these poly drivers would be a good for for the DM2 crossover.
I've been thinking of using them in a ported cabinet using the same drivers but hook them to a DM4 crossover which is smaller than DM2. I also have a pair of Infinity 1001A which have a 12inch bass driver the speakers themselves handling up to 200w. I was wondering what is the power handling limit (wattage) limit for the Celestion HF1300 / Coles 4001G combination? I don't listen loud but what to be on the safe side, just in case of a slip oh hand lol.
Planning to use the cabs of a pair Radford Monitor speakers for the above project.

[spendorman]

I was under the impression that polypropylene cones were lighter than Bextrene cones.

[florin]

I was under the impression that polypropylene cones were lighter than Bextrene cones.
Indeed, they are definitely lighter.
I'm a beginner so don't know whether the polypropylene driver would be a good replacement considering the fact that the crossover has been designed for the Bextrene.
In this article on (http://www.nutshellhifi.com/library/speaker-design2.html) is mentioned that a notch-filter equalisation to flatten the Bextrene driver is usually being used in designs of the time. I wonder whether this has an effect on the polypropylene replacement.
The author of this article on the Spendor BC1 (http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/vintageBC1.htm) ends with: "On the web I've seen the suggestion of the BC1 midbass driver being replaced by a Vifa 8" paper cone driver, but I would never do this. This is likely to totally change the sonic character of the BC1 speaker. Not even a polypropylene driver may come near this driver. Not that it necessarily would be worse, but only different from how the BC1 was intended to sound."

My polypropylene drivers would have to be looked at first as whomever has made them left the core tube on which the wire goes too long at it hits the magnet if driven too hard. More on that here (https://youtu.be/LnlNECMq3NI?t=1033).

[florin]

Managed to find out the power limit for the two:
Coles 4001G - 120W (https://coleselectroacoustics.com/ce-4001-super-tweeter/)
Celestion HF1300 - 60W
(https://www.diyaudio.com/community/attachments/hf1300_20090109104001-pdf.129561/)

[spendorman]

What makes you certain that the cones are polypropylene?

I have tried the Vifa units as replacements for the BC1 bass units (suggested by Wilmslow Audio), and they are not suitable in my opinion.

[walpurgis]

My polypropylene drivers would have to be looked at first as whomever has made them left the core tube on which the wire goes too long at it hits the magnet if driven too hard. More on that here (https://youtu.be/LnlNECMq3NI?t=1033).

I think that may indicate that the system bass resonance with that driver in use is too low. In a reflex cabinet, port tuning may help, but with a transmission line things get more complex. Also, bear in mind some bass drivers are intended strictly for use in sealed systems and will behave as described used otherwise.

(the "core tube" is generally referred to as the 'voicecoil former')

[florin]

they've been seen by an audio engineer. You can also see in the video here (https://youtu.be/LnlNECMq3NI?t=1033) that the surface of is smooth, bextrene is covered in damping paint so it's got some texture to it.

Probably doing the DM4 setup after I fix these drivers then makes more sense since the DM4 also uses a polypropylene driver. It would make a DM4 on steroids.

[florin]

Still it doesn't explain as to why the "core tube" (thanks for that) hits the magnet. I've never seen a speaker doing this. It's either that the space was limited in side or left it like that by mistake. Can't know unless I take them to someone to look at them.

[spendorman]

they've been seen by an audio engineer. You can also see in the video here (https://youtu.be/LnlNECMq3NI?t=1033) that the surface of is smooth, bextrene is covered in damping paint so it's got some texture to it.

Probably doing the DM4 setup after I fix these drivers then makes more sense since the DM4 also uses a polypropylene driver. It would make a DM4 on steroids.

As far as I know, B&W did not use a polypropylene cone. In my view, the bass unit in the video has a fault. I have similar units that don't do this.

[spendorman]

DM4 uses a Bextrene unit, I believe polypropylene coned bass units were pioneered after the DM4 and DM2 were designed.

[spendorman]

To my mind your best bet is to replace the "re-coned" bass units with original DM2 or DM2a bass units.

I believe that the Radford Monitor was a good speaker, if you have this, best to keep standard.

[florin]

To my mind your best bet is to replace the "re-coned" bass units with original DM2 or DM2a bass units.

I believe that the Radford Monitor was a good speaker, if you have this, best to keep standard.
I'll see when they arrive, I might leave them as they are.


DM4 uses a Bextrene unit, I believe polypropylene coned bass units were pioneered after the DM4 and DM2 were designed.
Having had a look at DM4's specs I see that some Bextrene cones were laminated so they look similar to polypropylene, or at least they don't have the brush patterns DW200 of the DM2's have on the cones.
After I bought the DM2's in the video mentioned above I bought another pair with an upgraded crossover by a retired audio engineer. I took the drivers in the video mentioned above labeled "tested 1993" to him and he said they are polypropylene.

[spendorman]

Generally, all Bextrene cones will be coated (sometimes on the rear of the cone), early days this was brush painted, later some were sprayed. In my view the brush painted is better acoustically, because the irregular coating breaks up the unwanted resonances better.

Polypropylene cones are mainly translucent, though, of course they don't have to be. Polypropylene is a difficult material to glue, often dust caps fall off and surrounds may come unstuck. Although I have some Rogers LS7's and LS2's which have polyprop cones, and they are still fine.

I think your engineer maybe mistaken in his opinion that the cones are polyprop.

[florin]

Generally, all Bextrene cones will be coated (sometimes on the rear of the cone), early days this was brush painted, later some were sprayed. In my view the brush painted is better acoustically, because the irregular coating breaks up the unwanted resonances better.

Polypropylene cones are mainly translucent, though, of course they don't have to be. Polypropylene is a difficult material to glue, often dust caps fall off and surrounds may come unstuck. Although I have some Rogers LS7's and LS2's which have polyprop cones, and they are still fine.

I think your engineer maybe mistaken in his opinion that the cones are polyprop.


I think you might be right.
Just had a look at the driver and the cone looks very similar if not identical to the one in DM4 which I also have.
Poly cones were difficult to glue in the beginning from what I understand, later on they found methods and glue materials that were much better at bonding poly.
Here's an up-close video of the driver in question. https://youtu.be/MIXDwRNceNo
By the way, what is the powder on some metal magnetic parts on vintage drivers? Some form of corrosion due to humidity?

[walpurgis]

Still it doesn't explain as to why the "core tube" (thanks for that) hits the magnet

Cone travel (extension) reduces in reflex systems as the speaker reaches its Hemholtz resonance, so it should not bottom out onto the magnet backplate.

[walpurgis]

DM4 uses a Bextrene unit, I believe polypropylene coned bass units were pioneered after the DM4 and DM2 were designed.

The DM4 had bextrene (polystyrene) cones. Early DM4 cones were brush coated and later ones were sprayed (I've owned both), The coating was Plastiflex, a rubbery clear synthetic material used by several makers.

[florin]

Cone travel (extension) reduces in reflex systems as the speaker reaches its Hemholtz resonance, so it should not bottom out onto the magnet backplate.
I've used this on Sansui 881 and depending on how bass heavy the content might be it would hit the magnet making horrible sounds. Luckily I didnt just crancked the volume straight up. I don't listen too loud but sometimes I like it a bit louder. Will look for spmeone to have a look at them at some point.

[spendorman]

The close up - looks like Bextrene to me.

Plastiflex is very much like PVA wood glue.

[spendorman]

I've used this on Sansui 881 and depending on how bass heavy the content might be it would hit the magnet making horrible sounds. Luckily I didnt just crancked the volume straight up. I don't listen too loud but sometimes I like it a bit louder. Will look for spmeone to have a look at them at some point.

Still think this is a faulty unit, possibly coil/former is distorted and hitting some part of the magnetic circuit.

[spendorman]

"By the way, what is the powder on some metal magnetic parts on vintage drivers? Some form of corrosion due to humidity?"

Yes, corrosion.

[struth]

"By the way, what is the powder on some metal magnetic parts on vintage drivers? Some form of corrosion due to humidity?"

Yes, corrosion.

yes several metals can be affected by this white rust. zinc is the worst

[spendorman]

Cadmium is nasty.

[struth]

Cadmium is nasty.

yeah, its cancerous. pretty much everywhere in very low levels too.