Project ONGAKU - A project too far....?

[Wakefield Turntables]

Would it be possible to build a clone of the Ongaku monoblocks?

[lurcher]

A clone, yes, perfectly possible. The problem will be getting the exact output transformers.

[Wakefield Turntables]

A clone, yes, perfectly possible. The problem will be getting the exact output transformers.

Any ideas?

[Wakefield Turntables]

I've just had a look at the cost of silver for the transformers :eek:, it would cost A LOT!

[walpurgis]

Yes, that is not going to be a cheap project!!

[Wakefield Turntables]

You can buy them from audionote uk for approx 20k :stalks:

[walpurgis]

You can buy them from audionote uk for approx 20k :stalks:

So you're going ahead then? :)


(Surely copper wound equivalents should be available?)

[Ali Tait]

You could certainly copy the circuit without using the very highly priced items. Won't sound the same as the original though..

[Wakefield Turntables]

So you're going ahead then? :)


(Surely copper wound equivalents should be available?)

Possibly, it would be my late 40th pressie.


You could certainly copy the circuit without using the very highly priced items. Won't sound the same as the original though..

Probably not but I bet you could emulate 95% of what you hear from considerably less than they charge.

[Ali Tait]

Yes probably. A friend on another forum built an Ongaku clone.

[walpurgis]

I seem to recall seeing Audio Note clone parts on some of the China/Hong Kong eBay sites.

[Yomanze]

The problem is with something like an an Ongaku is that all components, wiring and layout work in harmony with each other. This takes many many years of experience and tuning component choice and layout. It can't be replicated without keeping everything identical.

[Wakefield Turntables]

The problem is with something like an an Ongaku is that all components, wiring and layout work in harmony with each other. This takes many many years of experience and tuning component choice and layout. It can't be replicated without keeping everything identical.

Maybe, maybe not;) You can have fun trying.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Yes probably. A friend on another forum built an Ongaku clone.

who?


I seem to recall seeing Audio Note clone parts on some of the China/Hong Kong eBay sites.

Hmmmmmmm...... I don't think I would go down that route, I would probably rely on the experience of others for component selection.

[Yomanze]

It's like giving me all of the ingredients for a curry and wondering why the one cooked by the master curry chef tastes so much better, or changing the ingredients and wondering why it tastes different.

[Paul Lange]

If you can know what the circuit and components are you should be able to calculate the specs of the transformers (unless they are available on the web already, but you may want to double check anyway). I would guess that you would get the transformers made by Sowter or similar rather than buying some off the shelf ones?

Unless you are planning on using identical components you are going to have a different sounding amplifier but IMO I don't see anything wrong with adding your own little twist.

[YNWaN]

If you have never built a valve amp before I would suggest that something as expensive as this is not a good place to start.

[Wakefield Turntables]

If you have never built a valve amp before I would suggest that something as expensive as this is not a good place to start.

Thats ok I'm not building it.

[Wakefield Turntables]

You could argue that audio note uk produces a different ongaku to audio note japan but they still claim to be the same thing. They also sound very different. So what! It's how I find the sound that's important.

[YNWaN]

It's not difficult to build one of Audionotes kits.

[Wakefield Turntables]

It's not difficult to build one of Audionotes kits.

I have no idea if I'm buying an audionote kit, I'm still in the researching phase.

[Ali Tait]

Some info here, and a link to a site with a circuit-

http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=330&highlight=ongaku

[Wakefield Turntables]

Thanks mate.

Just seen this.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/211-Single-Ended-Tube-Amplifier-2x30-Watts-Kondos-ONGAKU-Beater-Absolute-Sound-/121447182204?pt=UK_AudioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiF i_Amplifiers&hash=item1c46d0ef7c


I HAVE NO LINK TO THIS DUDE BEFORE PEOPLE START THINKING I HAVE.

[walpurgis]

http://tubelab.com/designs/845-se/

[lurcher]

Depends if you want a 211 SET or a Ongaku. As already said, ANUK and AKJP Ongaku's are very different. And given the history between the two I doubt you can get ANJP transformers from ANUK. Lots of ways of doing a 211 SET. I have a pair of silver wound 211 output transformer somewhere, AE will wind them for you.

[YNWaN]

Are you actually sure that an Ongaku is the amp you want?

[lurcher]

If you want to try a 211, I have the 211 SET I built a few years ago you are welcome to try, but it will need collecting.

http://www.longdogaudio.com/content/211-a2-amp

[Mr Kipling]

If you ferret around the net, you'll find it mentioned, by the designer, that the use of (Italian) silver plays a significant role in how it sounds.

[YNWaN]

Yeah, it's supposed to be something like 20 year old weather aged silver that has been drawn into wire and wound into transformers. A 'proper' Ongaku is a mixture of heritage and mystique that can't be replicated.

[Mr Kipling]

The capacitors are silver too, as is the wiring.

[Ali Tait]

I'd take Nick up on his offer were I you, his amp is rather good.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Yeah, it's supposed to be something like 20 year old weather aged silver that has been drawn into wire and wound into transformers. A 'proper' Ongaku is a mixture of heritage and mystique that can't be replicated.

I dont subscribe to that bullshit about "aged silver". I also dont buy "heritage and mystique".


If you ferret around the net, you'll find it mentioned, by the designer, that the use of (Italian) silver plays a significant role in how it sounds.

I'm sure it does but English silver will work fine for me.


Are you actually sure that an Ongaku is the amp you want?

YEAH! Why would I suggest a project making a pair? Why ask such a question? :scratch:


The capacitors are silver too, as is the wiring.

No worries I'm sure we could find some very nice alternatives.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Depends if you want a 211 SET or a Ongaku. As already said, ANUK and AKJP Ongaku's are very different. And given the history between the two I doubt you can get ANJP transformers from ANUK. Lots of ways of doing a 211 SET. I have a pair of silver wound 211 output transformer somewhere, AE will wind them for you.


If you want to try a 211, I have the 211 SET I built a few years ago you are welcome to try, but it will need collecting.

http://www.longdogaudio.com/content/211-a2-amp

OK, looks like I'm probably going to try and emulate Ongaku UK then. I'd be looking at getting a pair of monoblocks. I cant collect for a while as I have a special delivery of my own in the next few days which means most of my time will be taken up doing night feeds. ;) Do you have enought 211silver wound output transformers for a pair of monoblocks?

[Ali Tait]

Well, he has a pair.:eek:

[Wakefield Turntables]

Well, he has a pair.:eek:

CHEEKY!

[Ali Tait]

:lol:

Seriously, the AE silver wound amorphous core trannies are very very good IMHO.

[Ali Tait]

http://www.transformatorspecialist.nl/pg-27033-7-71731/pagina/transformator_welkom_en.html

[loo]

OK, looks like I'm probably going to try and emulate Ongaku UK then. I'd be looking at getting a pair of monoblocks. I cant collect for a while as I have a special delivery of my own in the next few days which means most of my time will be taken up doing night feeds. ;) Do you have enought 211silver wound output transformers for a pair of monoblocks?

Nice amps both incarnations , you could save a few quid by sticking with the layout of the AN uk or Kondo Ongaku and leave it as a single chassis stereo amp rather than
splitting it into monoblocks.

[Mr Kipling]

I'm sure you could end up with a decent sounding item, but as to how it will compare to the original item is a moot point. The UK Audionote version sounds different (inferior) to the Japanese Kondo version. Apparently the circuit is common and the differences result from materials used.

[YNWaN]

YEAH! Why would I suggest a project making a pair? Why ask such a question? :scratch:.

I ask because your question comes out of the blue. It wasn't, "I've just been borrowing one and it is simply the best amp I have ever heard". In fact, you don't say you have heard one at all - hence the question. Given the cost that even a copy would entail I would want to be absolutely sure it was what I wanted before I set out.

[Wakefield Turntables]

I ask because your question comes out of the blue. It wasn't, "I've just been borrowing one and it is simply the best amp I have ever heard". In fact, you don't say you have heard one at all - hence the question. Given the cost that even a copy would entail I would want to be absolutely sure it was what I wanted before I set out.

OK. Yes its what I want. I'm looking to get one of the best valve amps cloned for my listening room.

[Stratmangler]

I'd take Nick up on his offer were I you, his amp is rather good.

So would I!
Nick's 211 is one very capable beast.

[Rush2112]

I agree with Yomanze the synergy is the part that is not going to transfer in cloning with "similar" parts it could be 95% of the original or 5% ! At 95% it's a steal but at 5% it's an expensive disaster !

[Erik van Voorst]

Hi there

I was wondering if you are having any succes building an Ongaku clone by now (2 years later)

I am asking because I picked up the challenge as well and am in a prototype/breadboard stage now (couple of months work)

[Arkless Electronics]

I'd rather have a NAD 3020......

[southall-1998]

:lol:

S.

[Arkless Electronics]

I'm perfectly serious. I regard the Ongaku as a really poor amplifier. As I do all SET amps. Not for me I'm afraid.

[Wakefield Turntables]

That's alright Jez, do you see an Ongaku or even a clone registered on my Sig?;)

PS I own a NAD3020 and can think of a lot of vintage Japanese 70's integrated that I'd sooner own, AU919 for instance.

[Barry]

Hi there

I was wondering if you are having any succes building an Ongaku clone by now (2 years later)

I am asking because I picked up the challenge as well and am in a prototype/breadboard stage now (couple of months work)

Hi there Eric,

How are you? Long time since you last posted. What have you been up to? Is the Ongaku clone your latest DIY project? If it is we would love to see any photographs you may have of the work in progress.

Definitely a project that will maintain your signature accolade! :)

Barry

[Arkless Electronics]

:)
Yer see the thing with the Ongaku and similar is that with such high distortion, low damping factor etc one is listening to the sonic signature of that amp...a pretty coloured one at that, rather than to "reality".
I always say that a good system should allow you to hear the very different ways in which recordings are made, with different mics, mixing desks and of course the acoustics of the recording space making each sound quite different. Some may sound sumptuous, some sharp and cold, some of amazing transparency and some with very obvious colourations of their own. A good system will make all this clear but if you have something which imparts its own sound to a marked degree then everything sounds basically like.. well in this case Ongaku! I'm sure that in the right system it can sound very "nice" but I'd rather have accurate myself.... and IT'S HOW MUCH??!! :eek: All IMHO and YMMV of course :)

[Erik van Voorst]

Hi there Eric,

How are you? Long time since you last posted. What have you been up to? Is the Ongaku clone your latest DIY project? If it is we would love to see any photographs you may have of the work in progress.

Definitely a project that will maintain your signature accolade! :)

Barry

Hi Barry

Yepp building a 211 SET amp based on a clever design of Kondo San with a twist of my own and help of a local "Think Tank" (two audio buddies) is now my latest greatest.

It is in a breadboard stage and at the moment gathering materials is the difficult path but certainly realistic.

As we speak I have two Tamura OPT in da house and the mains transformer is being build by MonolithMagnetics (Belgium) The transformer for the filaments is custom-made by Amplimo.
No need to explain that the trick cloning such a beast with succes is to get the right ( exotic) materials.

It most definitely will not play in the same league as the NAD 3020 but I can live with that.....;)

[YNWaN]

I heard an Ongaku integrated not that long ago. Front end was a Nottingham Analogue Space deck with some DIY full-range speakers. The sound was absolutely dire - really surprisingly poor.

[walpurgis]

Probably down to the speakers. Some people turn out dire efforts (I've been guilty myself :)).

[Erik van Voorst]

Yepp, there are some very unlucky demos with the Ongaku due to the less knowledgeable.

Anyway I am building it not integrated...I have my DIY pre amp posted here somewhere...(2012 ?) and will use the Ongaku for highs and mids only.

The idea is to experiment a bit with driver tubes/regulation/caps/chokes in order to come to the final contraption and in the end give it the appearance it deserves....meaning for now a safe wooden casing to work with.

I am on the dutch forum in "Real Time" building it so every now and than I will/can post a pic ....that is if there is an Ongaku fan to be found in this forum/topic.....otherwise it is quite useless wasting your time. :D

[walpurgis]

if there is an Ongaku fan to be found in this forum/topic.....otherwise it is quite useless wasting your time. :D

There are Audio Note fans here and Ongaku users I believe.

Your project photos would be welcome.

Don't let Jez's (or anybody else's) anti SET comments put you off :).

[YNWaN]

I don't actually blame the Ongaku as such, I think it was more an example of system synergy gone bad.

[Erik van Voorst]

I posted an update in my own topic here

[Arkless Electronics]

There are Audio Note fans here and Ongaku users I believe.

Your project photos would be welcome.

Don't let Jez's (or anybody else's) anti SET comments put you off :).

Indeed. Although personally I wouldn't touch one with a specially extended barge pole you should follow your dreams...

[Erik van Voorst]

Okay an update my test Ongaku is ready and since I have one on loan to compare step by step it is close but not yet there.

Since I have to blame it on some of the lesser materials (the main cause that DIY guys are dissatisfied by the end result when cloning the original or judging the sound of a non original Ongaku !!!!!) I have ordered a set Tangos.

I will keep you informed.

http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx129/ErikvanVoorst/IMG_1548.jpg

http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx129/ErikvanVoorst/IMG_1511.jpg

http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx129/ErikvanVoorst/IMG_1485.jpg

[Erik van Voorst]

....... and Playing...very very promissing.

The main transformer is custom made in Belgium by monolytics...the other transformers by Tamura, Lundahl and some Vintage oil filled, the interstages El Cheapo waiting for Tango.
211 are General Electric...rectifiers El Cheapo...waiting for tube rolling.
Wiring not at all high end....but the fun is experimenting with (some less costly)materials....spending money is the bad part here....lol

http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx129/ErikvanVoorst/IMG_1546.jpg

[Macca]

Will this drive those monster speakers you built or is it for a different set?

[Erik van Voorst]

Will this drive those monster speakers you built or is it for a different set?

Nope I use the Ongaku for high and mid only.
For low I have a heavy modified set of Aitos amps. ;)

But do not let the size of the speakers fool you the filter is custom built by Kharma in order to be "easy" driven.

[Old boy]

This is a Really interesting and enjoyable thread,hats off to you regarding your build
I owned an original ANJ Ongaku around 12 years ago, didn't keep it long though I do remember being distinctly underwhelmed at the time.
I ended up selling it on to a guy Belgium after zero interest here in the U.K.
glad to get shot of it as I recall.

[Erik van Voorst]

A pity that it did not do what it promised for you...but the fun of DIY is that you can dial it in or change it substantially to fit into your own configuration DIY is every bit like cooking a fancy meal...

This was/is the last item (so far) in my chain making a total DIY Stereo System complete....

[Old boy]

I'd like to read more about your DIY projects etc
do you have a web page or could you point me to where you post more regularly
Btw I visit Assen from time to time anywhere close to you ?

[Erik van Voorst]

Assen is nearly the other end of Holland compared to my town...lol

Anyway I posted regularly on the HTforum (Hometheater) all my stereo projects, some of them got over half a million hits....lol

Here you have a link of my speaker build

http://www.htforum.nl/yabbse/index.php?topic=8497.0

If you want more use the search button and search for

Transport der transporten

Versterker der versterkers

Dac der daccen

[Erik van Voorst]

http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx129/ErikvanVoorst/IMG_1599.jpg

[Erik van Voorst]

Today I installed two Tango Interstages new stock resulting in a wonderful upgrade.
See my topic my homebuild Hifi stuff.