View Full Version : Why doesn't the hifi industry cater to normal people?
I don't know about anyone else but I'm pretty fed up with the type of equipment exhibited at hifi shows and reviewed in the mags (esp. Hifi News), and on websites like HiFi Pig. Does anyone actually buy equipment costing £10-20,000+, or even >£3000+? Frequently this blingy stuff doesn't actually sound good when you eventually hear it, and you realise you're happy with the SQ of your own modest system. Are they just selling a fantasy, like topgear do when they review hypercars on a show watched by millions of ordinary people. How do these hifi companies survive? Are there that many millionaires around??:scratch:
Does anyone actually buy equipment costing £10-20,000+, or even >£3000+?
Yes they do. There are members here who have systems that cost a lot more than that (not me, obviously).
Frequently this blingy stuff doesn't actually sound good when you eventually hear it, and you realise you're happy with the SQ of your own modest system
A common sentiment. But it does depend on how good your own system is. Does the law of diminishing returns apply? Yes. And it is allegedly difficult to get a good sound at a show.
Are they just selling a fantasy, like topgear do when they review hypercars
Yes they are. According to Alan Sircom (who posts here occasionally) the readers want to read about exotica, whether they can afford it or not. It has workded for Top Gear, it is one of the most successful TV shows in history.
How do these hifi companies survive?Are there that many millionaires around??
Some don't. And yes there are quite a lot of millionaires around, most of them just don't advertise it.
The rich got richer, the middle class decreases and there is more poor people than before. The result of Thatcher, Reagan and the liberalisation of the western economies.
The markets respond in offering goods to where there is money. I'ts a sad situation. I rememer the 70's and the 80's, with much more offerings on the reasonanly priced parts of the markeds.
prestonchipfryer
28-09-2014, 08:19
Depends how you define normal. A fair number of my friends think I am completely mad because I am still playing vinyl records. :lol:
The rich got richer, the middle class decreases and there is more poor people than before. The result of Thatcher, Reagan and the liberalisation of the western economies.
The markets respond in offering goods to where there is money. I'ts a sad situation. I rememer the 70's and the 80's, with much more offerings on the reasonanly priced parts of the markeds.
Debatable. The majority of people in the West are wealthier than in the Seventies, but there are far more things for them to spend their money on now than there was then. A typical UK house in the Seventies might have had a modest hi fi (more likely a music centre) but they would not have a dishwasher, a washing machine, a coffee maker, central heating, double glazing, smartphones for every member of the family, a car for every adult member of the family, televisions in every room, iPods, gaming machines, computers, microwave ovens, freezers and so on. The decline of the education system means more people send their children to fee-paying schools, they will also want to subsidise them through University. So plenty of places for that money to go other than on a hi-fi.
Even then if I wanted to spend say £500 per on a source, amp and speakers I would still have a hell of a lot of choices to make. Maybe not as many as in the Seventies but it is not like there is nothing out there. Richer Sounds alone offer about ten different speakers all costing less than £500 a pair.
Light Dependant Resistor
28-09-2014, 09:43
I don't know about anyone else but I'm pretty fed up with the type of equipment exhibited at hifi shows and reviewed in the mags (esp. Hifi News), and on websites like HiFi Pig. Does anyone actually buy equipment costing £10-20,000+, or even >£3000+? Frequently this blingy stuff doesn't actually sound good when you eventually hear it, and you realise you're happy with the SQ of your own modest system. Are they just selling a fantasy, like topgear do when they review hypercars on a show watched by millions of ordinary people. How do these hifi companies survive? Are there that many millionaires around??:scratch:
The individual should spend a minimum of 4 weeks I think studying the subject of audio and audio equipment and basic electronics, before departing with cash. It should educate that DIY ( do it Yourself ) is a very good answer if not the best to saving money, here is one example:
1. http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/190300-best-place-put-zobel-network-2.html see post 20
I know of no manufacturer that offers or gets this right with all three networks.
Maybe this is all down to the ipod killing off the mass market for hifi and meaning that manufacturers have to chase the rich with blinged up over-engineered pieces of exotica instead. It's a sad state of affairs, particularly when you look at other types of consumer electronics which have got both better and cheaper (in absolute as well as relative terms) over the last 10-20 years. My first laptop cost £1900, the next £1500, then £900, then £500. Each was much better than the one before it.
The kids are beginning to discover vinyl and they like what they are hearing. It's early days yet but this single factor may be a game-changer if it really takes off ;)
Maybe this is all down to the ipod killing off the mass market for hifi and meaning that manufacturers have to chase the rich with blinged up over-engineered pieces of exotica instead. It's a sad state of affairs, particularly when you look at other types of consumer electronics which have got both better and cheaper (in absolute as well as relative terms) over the last 10-20 years. My first laptop cost £1900, the next £1500, then £900, then £500. Each was much better than the one before it.
That's more down to the fact that there is a continuous, global demand for computer processors which means massive economy of scale and constant completion and improvement. Compared to hi-fi which is (and always has been) a niche market using technology developed from 40 to 100 years ago. I don't think it is a fair comparison. If everyone in the world wanted and needed a hi-fi system (as is the case with computers/smart phones) prices would be lower and there would be a lot more R&D going on.
I don't have a rosy view of the seventies/eighties in terms of hi-fi. There was a lot of tat about back then (cheap biscuit tin stuff from Sanyo, Amstrad etc) and most people bought a rack or midi-system from Dixons or Comet, not separates. The second hand market was only accessible via classified adds in local papers or the hi-fi mags; or over-priced traded-in kit in dealer's shops. Now we have eBay and forums to access all that used gear which has revolutionised that market and no doubt makes a big impact on the sale of new kit but it does mean that it is possible to source the older exotica at affordable prices. In that respect we are living in a golden age right now.
In that respect we are living in a golden age right now.
Albeit one with a finite lifespan... :eyebrows:
Well nothing lasts forever ;) the trick is not to miss out on it if you are there whilst it is happening...
The problem I have with reviews of what I class as exorbitantly priced kit is that there are lots of pictures of the outsides, sometimes a picture of the inside, but very rarely any info about what the topology of an amplifier, nor what transistors are used or anything much about it's inner workings. Having build many amps myself I might be able to get an idea as to how it sounds if we had this information. Similarly with speakers, rarely do you get a diagram of the internal design and measurements etc. Ok it costs £20,000 and sounds wonderful. We don't have the same system, room etc etc.
Are we "normal" people. What is normal? I am barking mad - but I am happy.......mostly
Lodgesound
28-09-2014, 14:37
I am in full agreement with the OP regarding price points of HiFi equipment particularly that is exhibited at shows and reviewed in the HiFi press.
These are not real world prices and as has already been stated or implied they are indeed set to aim the products concerned at an elite monied class of person in much the same way as high end cars are.
Does the equipment sound up to the price? In most cases absolutely not and as many on this forum will both tell and demonstrate far better quality can be had for less than one tenth of the price of most of this machinery.
The point is that if you are a manufacturer sadly this is the only way to go now. Many folk certainly in the UK either live in rabbit hutches or have neighbour and noise nuisance problems to the degree where owning such machinery is both in-practical and in some cases letigious.
The other rather salient but sad point is that music simply does not play the same part in people's lives as it once used to. Put very simply and brutally in many cases people want the pictures to go with and can just get this from their phones now.
This is why the elitism with pricing - I imagine that such systems purchased by the appropriate class of person (by that I mean financial class) are rarely if ever even switched on as they are there merely as an ornament.
If you truly love high end music reproduction certainly at the moment there are many alternatives on the second hand, vintage or even professional markets that will more than satisfy your needs.
Well that's an easy one . . .
Q. "Why doesn't the hifi industry cater to normal people?"
A. "Because normal people aren't interested in Hi-Fi"
Now the tricky question is, define 'normal' people? :scratch:
I think in this context 'normal' refers to people who do not have staggeringly large amounts of disposable income to the point where they can blow £20K plus on a hi-fi component and not worry about it. - i.e. pretty much everyone.
Ammonite Audio
28-09-2014, 16:09
Yes, there are people with cash to splash on the really expensive stuff, but not so much in the UK compared to Germany, North America, the Far East etc. There's nothing wrong with catering for the esoteric market; and nothing wrong with us ordinary folk dreaming about one day having the option to own such stuff.
Recently I attended a demonstration of the Naim Statement amplifier and was utterly bowled over by what I heard, even though I was expecting something very unpleasant. Many people at the very same dem heard something else, it seems, so there's no accounting for individual tastes. The people who buy equipment like the Naim Statement do not lurk on forum such as this, and as has been pointed out earlier, probably don't shout about their wealth and what they buy with it. There's nothing wrong with that.
So, regarding the opening post, just who are 'normal people'? Talk about 'normal people' sounds just as remote and patronising as when Ed Miliband uses the same terms when he has no idea of who 'normal people' are. If, as stated above, 'normal' means not being able to spend £20k+ on equipment, I'd agree broadly, but I'd hate the Thought Police to outlaw anything expensive or aspirational. Am I less 'normal' than the chap in an Aston Martin who has a £200k stereo rig at home?
As for the shows and magazines, they'd be terribly dull without the glitzy aspirational stuff; indeed Whittlebury came very close to being very dull indeed for that reason. I never thought I'd find myself missing Absolute Sounds, but clearly they bring something of a halo-glow to an audio show.
I've yet to attend a demonstration by either Naim or Absolute Sounds that I thought sounded any good, or justified the cost of the equipment.
Ammonite Audio
28-09-2014, 16:36
I've yet to attend a demonstration by either Naim or Absolute Sounds that I thought sounded any good, or justified the cost of the equipment.
There we will have to differ!
MikeMusic
28-09-2014, 17:05
The big money comes from the big kit
The profit on a few sales of the big kit will outstrip by some way a vast amount of small kit
(Mr. Cynic)
Maybe the big kit draws in people to buy lower end, maybe
My next-door neighbour has a Porsche in his drive that cost him £120,000 (and a nice new Audi) and a Sonos audio system that cost about £3,000. I have a VW Golf 1.6 Diesel Bluemotion worth about £8,000 and an audio system that cost say £25,000 give or take. Who's the normal one? Are we both mad? Seeing we can both afford it, why does it matter? For what it's worth, I spend a lot more time listening to my audio system than he spends in his car.
Next point. Capitalism is a system designed to facilitate the transfer of goods and services for profit. You can do it selling overpriced audio or 24K gold paperclips, it makes no difference. How companies make a profit is up to them.
Example. My current speakers are Harbeth and my previous PMC. The Harbeth cost exactly 50% of the PMC (at current list prices). The Harbeth probably cost more to make, in terms of pure direct cost. PMC invested hugely in marketing the speakers I had, do shows everywhere, etc. Harbeth do not. I do not know unit numbers. But both companies obviously have a business model that works for them, so by the rules of capitalism they live to fight another day. They will also be very keen to have a happy customer because it is so difficult to build brand loyalty, so they want the customer to be happy with the product.
It may be perceived that hifi is priced by thinking of a random number, doubling it and deducting the wife's date of birth, but such companies will be consigned to the dustbin of audio history. Audio is a business like any other and the rules of supply and demand apply equally. If a company supplies a product for which there is no demand, they might as well put their money on the 4:40 at Doncaster, as they at least have a chance of getting something back.
The consumers' options are fairly good. I have bought items second hand to try them, for a year or more, and sold them on, getting all my money back. The majority of my components in my system were bought new, because I decided most of them would be for the long term.
The big issue is whether the market is inefficient. Hifi used to be sold through high street shops. It is now sold through range of online, retail and independent resellers. Marketing is funded by a mixture of efforts by manufacturers, distributors and retailers and their websites. These days, it does seem difficult to fathom that three parties (manufacturer, distributor, retailer) all have to make a large margin because of the low volume in the market. You get much better value from Richer Sounds as they buy direct from manufacturers and have much smaller margins.
So the question is pointless. A friend of mine just spent over £1m on his 50th birthday party? Mad? No, as everyone had a great time and the money was not an issue. I don't think anyone has any right to criticise how other people spend their money.
Perhaps it's a relative thing. I wouldn't (couldn't) drop £20k on a box/pair of boxes but have spent £900 on a pair of second hand speakers. Most people (ie. all those who don't post here !) would consider this incomprehensible. Some of those people may have 30 pairs of shoes, or as mentioned above, a nice motor.
As Frank Zappa said (something like): Communism will never work because people like stuff.
If I were a wealthy man, I'd buy a bigger house to stick some bigger Harbeths in ! And the nice motor ;-). But that will never stop me being deeply grateful for the system I have and enjoying it every day.
Am I the only one who is put off posh cars by the bizarre advertising?
I had two Golfs, then bought a posh Lexus. Good for school runs and you can get concrete slabs in the boot, but no good for fence posts. Kids go on the bus and got another Golf.
No problem whatsoever with what people spend their money on, or indeed with companies making very expensive pieces of hifi. My main issue is with the hifi media's obsession with said equipment when it occupies 80% of a magazine or dominates an audio show. It becomes boring and materialistic. Not fun anymore.
Normal=average='man in the street' interested in hifi but on average wage by the way. Probably should have phrased it better, didn't think so much could be read into it.
No problem whatsoever with what people spend their money on, or indeed with companies making very expensive pieces of hifi. My main issue is with the hifi media's obsession with said equipment when it occupies 80% of a magazine or dominates an audio show. It becomes boring and materialistic. Not fun anymore.
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Couldn't agree more but we are in the minority compared to the people who buy the magazines. You can't blame a mag for giving its audience what they want. As for the big shows they cost a fortune to exhibit at so if you are exhibiting mid price kit that you are only clearing say £200 net profit per unit you have to sell twenty or more units just to cover the cost of going to one show. £150K a unit and you clear £50K net for one sale. More than makes it worth your while.
Couldn't agree more but we are in the minority compared to the people who buy the magazines. You can't blame a mag for giving its audience what they want. As for the big shows they cost a fortune to exhibit at so if you are exhibiting mid price kit that you are only clearing say £200 net profit per unit you have to sell twenty or more units just to cover the cost of going to one show. £150K a unit and you clear £50K net for one sale. More than makes it worth your while.
The magazine business is very simple. If you can sell enough advertising to pay for the editorial and production costs, then it doesn't matter if it's "HiFi News" or "Newts Illustrated". The other main factor is that advertising rates are based directly on circulation numbers.
Magazines don't set out to give an audience what they want, they find an audience to be able to sell advertising space.
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Magazines don't set out to give an audience what they want, they find an audience to be able to sell advertising space.
That amounts to the same thing doesn't it?
That amounts to the same thing doesn't it?
Just dispelling the concept that magazine publishers are altruistic. Just trying to make a buck like anyone else.
The magazine business is very simple. If you can sell enough advertising to pay for the editorial and production costs, then it doesn't matter if it's "HiFi News" or "Newts Illustrated". The other main factor is that advertising rates are based directly on circulation numbers.
Magazines don't set out to give an audience what they want, they find an audience to be able to sell advertising space.
It's annoying that we pay a fiver for the privilege if it really is just a glossy brochure to flog some flashy kit in the Far East or Dubai. You're probably right though - I don't think I'll buy anymore.
It's annoying that we pay a fiver for the privilege if it really is just a glossy brochure to flog some flashy kit in the Far East or Dubai. You're probably right though - I don't think I'll buy anymore.
I buy "HFN & Record Review" and "Gramophone", both online, for the music rather than audio sections, and Record Collector from time to time when I'm in a record store.
I'm not sure there is anything about audio kit in a magazine that you can't find online. Most manufacturers put the reviews on their websites as they are a key part of their marketing (and I question how many are editorially independent).
Laws of diminishing returns always apply I suppose, but if you can afford better equipment even for only a modicum of improvement and its your passion, then why not ?
That's fine - totally up to the individual. I just wish magazines and websites were more balanced and covered the cheaper stuff properly too. The fact that many of these reviews emphasise the cost of the equipment so much makes me think that is the main point of it in many cases, rather than it being about sound quality as a primary aim.
Spectral Morn
30-09-2014, 20:31
To answer your question, because normal people, the mass market are no longer interested therefore not their customer base.
The masses once aspired to own quality audio, it was an aspiration based on pure consumerism and keeping up with the Jones etc and the mass market companies supplied products to cater for this desire. How many of these folks were serious about this is debatable but most homes had a separates system of some sort and before that music centres. There was a highend back then too and based on weekly wage packets much of it was pretty aspirational stuff.
The last surge re separates market and folks buying new audio systems coincided with the release of CD when many bough fairly expensive CD players to add to their older set ups or they bought new ones. Most companies offered speakers from as little as £80 such as the likes of Goodmins Maxims, Wharefdale Diamonds etc and amplifiers from say £120 but this market was based on quantity purchase by the public at large.
With the advent of AV the two channel market was reduced, and with the popularity of MP3 etc it was diminished again. The prices once sub to just over £100ish based on scale of production began to rise as the companies were forced upmarket into the more specialist arenas that offered sales but less than what was the norm a decade before. Eventually many abandoned this area to concentrate on AV and not two channel.
With the death of quality music reproduction as a desirable thing to own the only companies left making quality audio were the higher end ones and the one man band types and as the scale of production is smaller the prices rose to be able to buy into quality two channel.
As it sits today its worse, the great unwashed have bought into the crazy lie that paying for virtual items is where its at so physical media players are shrinking and as demand dies, production costs rise and so do the prices. So the entry level now seems to be about £600 to £1000 for an item.
Now all of the above is in reference to what was the main stream. When I first got into audio and a few years after that began working in the trade I could have supplied a full quality HiFi for about a thousand pounds, try doing that now. The high end and ultra high end have always existed and usually at the top of a range of products that began in the lower hundreds of pounds but that is less so now days with less companies having any products below several thousand.
Sadly lack of demand has killed off the lower end, with many pulling out - see the thread on Pioneer and the death of Sansui. Mainstream companies employ passionate people to design products to price points but ultimately they are only interested in these markets while there is money to be made. No money they move on. Highend companies are run by passionate people who's dreams are translated into products for a different clientèle but a smaller one and its not massmarket one.
Audio has become more specialist, less mainstream and sadly dearer.
It is possible with a bit of knowledge though to put some nice systems together for modest money either thinking outside the box or buying second hand.
With the demise of the lower end magazines cover it less because it pretty much doesn't exist any more, replaced by AV and now days even AV is dying - recent comeback of computer audio has seen some lower priced stuff covered but that's the exception to the rule. In the days of the mass market most magazines covered a mix of pricepoints but some covered more highend to match their readers demands a situation that still exists today. Being honest I prefer reading about ultra highend than lower end products.
HiFi Shows well there is a lot to be said about them both good and bad. Its great to see the uber expensive stuff we can't afford and the more modest stuff we still probably can't afford and as the mainsteam companies mostly don't attend anymore, its down to the smaller more specialist ones where smaller scale production means the entry level is dear, to do them.
Poor sound, should not happen but its very hard to get good sound at hotels, I know I have been involved over the years trying to do so, sometimes till the small hours when others have shrugged shoulders and given up, retiring to the bar I was still at it. I think part of the problem is companies being pressured into putting the big gun speakers into rooms too small or having way too big a room. Gear appropriate to the rooms is part of the secret to good sound. Very few seem to bother to visit rooms before they book them or use the same rooms every year, where they know they can get a good or great sound. I can't speak for these companies, why they do what they do, or don't. I have heard great sound at shows for sane money, and crazy money and equally awful sound at both price points too but in the main average to poor. I don't judge sound at shows re how items will sound in an ideal set up, though often I do know what it is that isn't ideal, that makes the system chosen sound poor.
I know things can be frustrating, down right infuriating at times but there is magic out there to hear, read about and buy.
Regards Neil
To answer your question, because normal people, the mass market are no longer interested therefore not their customer base.
The masses once aspired to own quality audio, it was an aspiration based on pure consumerism and keeping up with the Jones etc and the mass market companies supplied products to cater for this desire. How many of these folks were serious about this is debatable but most homes had a separates system of some sort and before that music centres. There was a highend back then too and based on weekly wage packets much of it was pretty aspirational stuff.
The last surge re separates market and folks buying new audio systems coincided with the release of CD when many bough fairly expensive CD players to add to their older set ups or they bought new ones. Most companies offered speakers from as little as £80 such as the likes of Goodmins Maxims, Wharefdale Diamonds etc and amplifiers from say £120 but this market was based on quantity purchase by the public at large.
With the advent of AV the two channel market was reduced, and with the popularity of MP3 etc it was diminished again. The prices once sub to just over £100ish based on scale of production began to rise as the companies were forced upmarket into the more specialist arenas that offered sales but less than what was the norm a decade before. Eventually many abandoned this area to concentrate on AV and not two channel.
With the death of quality music reproduction as a desirable thing to own the only companies left making quality audio were the higher end ones and the one man band types and as the scale of production is smaller the prices rose to be able to buy into quality two channel.
As it sits today its worse, the great unwashed have bought into the crazy lie that paying for virtual items is where its at so physical media players are shrinking and as demand dies, production costs rise and so do the prices. So the entry level now seems to be about £600 to £1000 for an item.
Now all of the above is in reference to what was the main stream. When I first got into audio and a few years after that began working in the trade I could have supplied a full quality HiFi for about a thousand pounds, try doing that now. The high end and ultra high end have always existed and usually at the top of a range of products that began in the lower hundreds of pounds but that is less so now days with less companies having any products below several thousand.
Sadly lack of demand has killed off the lower end, with many pulling out - see the thread on Pioneer and the death of Sansui. Mainstream companies employ passionate people to design products to price points but ultimately they are only interested in these markets while there is money to be made. No money they move on. Highend companies are run by passionate people who's dreams are translated into products for a different clientèle but a smaller one and its not massmarket one.
Audio has become more specialist, less mainstream and sadly dearer.
It is possible with a bit of knowledge though to put some nice systems together for modest money either thinking outside the box or buying second hand.
With the demise of the lower end magazines cover it less because it pretty much doesn't exist any more, replaced by AV and now days even AV is dying - recent comeback of computer audio has seen some lower priced stuff covered but that's the exception to the rule. In the days of the mass market most magazines covered a mix of pricepoints but some covered more highend to match their readers demands a situation that still exists today. Being honest I prefer reading about ultra highend than lower end products.
HiFi Shows well there is a lot to be said about them both good and bad. Its great to see the uber expensive stuff we can't afford and the more modest stuff we still probably can't afford and as the mainsteam companies mostly don't attend anymore, its down to the smaller more specialist ones where smaller scale production means the entry level is dear, to do them.
Poor sound, should not happen but its very hard to get good sound at hotels, I know I have been involved over the years trying to do so, sometimes till the small hours when others have shrugged shoulders and given up, retiring to the bar I was still at it. I think part of the problem is companies being pressured into putting the big gun speakers into rooms too small or having way too big a room. Gear appropriate to the rooms is part of the secret to good sound. Very few seem to bother to visit rooms before they book them or use the same rooms every year, where they know they can get a good or great sound. I can't speak for these companies, why they do what they do, or don't. I have heard great sound at shows for sane money, and crazy money and equally awful sound at both price points too but in the main average to poor. I don't judge sound at shows re how items will sound in an ideal set up, though often I do know what it is that isn't ideal, that makes the system chosen sound poor.
I know things can be frustrating, down right infuriating at times but there is magic out there to hear, read about and buy.
Regards Neil
Good post Neil, especially the highlighted parts.
That's fine - totally up to the individual. I just wish magazines and websites were more balanced and covered the cheaper stuff properly too. The fact that many of these reviews emphasise the cost of the equipment so much makes me think that is the main point of it in many cases, rather than it being about sound quality as a primary aim.
I have yet to find a piece of kit at any price that has not got a review online. What hifi and Hifi Choice review cheaper items.
Good post Neil, especially the highlighted parts.
By way of example, went round to a friend last weekend, known him for 30 years and very musical. He's just finished renovating a very nice house, cost £1.5m and he must have spent another £500,000 rebuilding etc. His music system comprises built-in Sonos with all the music stored in the cloud. He does not have any physical music store. Besides having his music library online, he uses Spotify a lot. That's the way it is these days.
He does, however, have a very nice brand new Yamaha piano in his main living space.
So he and his family are hardly the great unwashed, but don't see the need for anything more than an ipad controller and speakers in the walls and ceilings.
You can also now get a digital amplifier (e.g. Maestro-50) or an integrated (e.g. Pulse) and a pair of speakers (e.g. KEF) for less in total than the cost of an iphone, which you can use as a streamer or plug into either.
The world is moving on.
By way of example, went round to a friend last weekend, known him for 30 years and very musical. He's just finished renovating a very nice house, cost £1.5m and he must have spent another £500,000 rebuilding etc. His music system comprises built-in Sonos with all the music stored in the cloud. He does not have any physical music store. Besides having his music library online, he uses Spotify a lot. That's the way it is these days.
The bar to "hi-fi" is now so low that all ballet is now The Limbo.
StanleyB
01-10-2014, 06:20
The bar to "hi-fi" is now so low that all ballet is now The Limbo.
So true. Anything that produces music these days is now regarded by many as hi-fi.
starbucksboss
01-10-2014, 07:25
The rich got richer, the middle class decreases and there is more poor people than before. The result of Thatcher, Reagan and the liberalisation of the western economies.
The markets respond in offering goods to where there is money. I'ts a sad situation. I rememer the 70's and the 80's, with much more offerings on the reasonanly priced parts of the markeds.
Yawn...
MikeMusic
01-10-2014, 08:44
Music and hifi followed the same path
A long time ago me and my mates went to gigs and festivals.
There was plenty of room, the odd sell out.
I had what could be regarded then as hifi. It was rare
1970 I think it was, probably after Woodstock we went to the Bath Festival in Shepton Mallet.
There was a huge amount of punters, a lot who were not there for the music.
1971 I think we went to Reading Festival, my last one as there were too many there just not that into the music.
'Hifi', or more accurately a device for producing sound became way more consumer and main stream.
So now just about everyone has a sound system.
and you have heard the horrid phrase
"I have it on in the back ground"
If you have lots of money it is spread around on all the 'essentials'
So true. Anything that produces music these days is now regarded by many as hi-fi.
Wouldn't agree. Think the whole concept of hi-fi is disappearing. People just want music in their home and the system only has to be as good as the quality of the source : normally 256kb AAC or 320 mp3.
When you don't have to buy physical media, the idea of a "hifI" in the traditional sense disappears.
I have a "hifi" - and I also use Sonos, and it is superb.
StanleyB
01-10-2014, 10:15
Wouldn't agree. Think the whole concept of hi-fi is disappearing. People just want music in their home and the system only has to be as good as the quality of the source : normally 256kb AAC or 320 mp3.
They said that about FM transmission, and the advent of the likes of the Sony Walkman all those decades ago. What has changed? FM is now replaced by streaming. And the Walkman is now an IPod. But the basic idea that HI-Fi is just as appropriate a word to use for these methods of audio playback still a widely held view by those who have not had the pleasure of hearing a real hifi system in action. Just like a fast and fully kitted out Ford Focus will never be good enough to be called a super car, A Sonos system can't be taken serious as a HIFI system.
Sonos system with speakers in the ceiling is not a 'hi-fidelity' system in any reasonable sense of the term. If it suits the person who has it that is absolutely fine and dandy but let's not pretend that it is capable of anything more than background sounds. I know that sounds snobby but I think we really have to draw the line on re-defining the meaning of words.
Very true. A friend of mine has a lot of Sonos gear and asked me about ceiling speakers. He now has them installed and he is delighted with the results. It suits him but it is probably isn't HiFi in the true sense of the word.
Yawn...
Youve never made so much as a constructive comment on any thread on this forum to my knowledge so away and chase yersel daftee.
I never suggested Sonos is hifi. I can't be called a hifi snob as I have both. My favourite is the Sonos sound bar under my TV, which my wife uses to stream music and I use to listen to the radio. I play music on the hifi of Sonos in the garden. For many people it provides lots of pleasure and great value for money. There is no doubt it is possibly the most significant audio innovation in years. It's 2013 global sales were $535million, so they must be doing something right. To put that into context Richer Sounds 2013 sales were £144 million, so globally Sonos sell at wholesale price more than double UK's largest retailer at retail price. And Sonos was only formed in 2002. Wish I'd had the idea.
According to Forbes, Bose's global sales for 2013 was $2.5bn. Does that make them a better Hi-Fi company?
According to Forbes, Bose's global sales for 2013 was $2.5bn. Does that make them a better Hi-Fi company?
I referred to Sonos as an "audio" innovation, not hifi.
Bose was started 50 years ago by an MIT professor trying to improve on hifi speakers. The Acoustimass was a huge innovation at the time. The Wave products are sort of copied by Sonos. I bought a Wave CD/radio 10 years ago and my son still uses it.
It has become a lifestyle product and its commercial side is probably as large.
I have a pair of Quietcomfort headphones. Nothing better for trains and planes. My other son had a pair as well.
So it has been hugely innovative and successful longer than Linn and all the rest, maybe not hifi (they don't do much in the way of source components), but some great products.
B&O is another good one. 90 years old, realised 15 years ago that there is no money to be made in audio separates. Most successful part of their business is now in-car audio. Still make whacky speakers focused on wide dispersion mid and treble.
Hope my english will be enough to explain myself :) There are many reasons why the people try to make themself some hobbies;
1) I believe all of us have problems in our life more or less, due to daily effects. Politicians, relatives problems, problems at work... Even people comparably wealthy, have!! We are aimed to protect ourselves mentally :)
2) After retirement... Entering from a busy and active life to a life more free time.
3) Everybody has some free time during normal life, to seal that gap. (In some cases and sometimes that hobby becomes our job after retirement. DIY works to lets say turntable repair workshop...)
...
At the end everybody has some hobby due to from one or more above personal reasons. It can be Hi-Fi Music, watch, wine, food, car, reading books, watching movies, playing computer games, chess, backgammon etc.
Each and every type of hobby has some internal dynamics influence the people.
On the other hand each and everyone of us has personal preferences, taste, expectation, way of enjoyment.
All those things form our hobby. In almost all hobby type there are range of products. Even chess .. There are chess set costs Xk Pound. Do I pay for a chess set that much, NO, but there are people who will give. On the other hand who worked all his life for "a beautiful house, inside a garden" spends his time to find different internal designs, materials, details which makes him happy. He filled his free time with that. For him Hi-Fi may not be a priority. Maybe after that will be, who knows.
I will come to Hi-Fi... Due to personal preferences, taste, expectation, way of enjoyment all of us has different components in our system. A sound which is beautiful for me, may not be beautiful for somebody else. Due to that reason I do not like directly to say this equipment is awful, that cable is horrible. It is valid to many thousends of pounds equipments.
Besides that many times it was written in this topic, there are marketing choices of companies. Sometimes in capitalism you create a "star" and sell them to people (can be singer, can be equipment, can be wine...) To be the most expensive do not mean to be the best.
For the idea Hi-Fi is loosing importance, I do not aggree. Many people listen to music from compact, small systems, to Mp3, uses smartphones etc. Because as I tried to explain myself, "that is not a priority for them in their life" Maybe they drink 1000 USD wine but they are not addicted to listen music from HiFi gears. (not common but shall be :) )
http://www.discwizards.com/images/articleImages/Vinyl-Sales-Graph-US-Market-1996-2012.png
This statistic is from discwizards.com and till 2012, vinil sales are groving up it shows US but even not only in US, globally increasing. You know, listening vinil has its own ritual, put the vinil on platter, carefully bring cartridge above, after 20 min go and change the other side again the same thing, protect them utmost care. etc But everything do not put back the people buying vinils. There are gears for everybodies personal preferences, taste, expectation, way of enjoyment, pocket. We choose from a big pool.
Gordon Steadman
02-10-2014, 10:17
I referred to Sonos as an "audio" innovation, not hifi.
I bought a Wave CD/radio 10 years ago and my son still uses it.
It has become a lifestyle product and its commercial side is probably as large.
Where I used to work, we used to 'give' customers a Bose wave radio with their kitchens (if they spent enough of course). All the rest of the staff and 99% of the customers thought they were wonderful and couldn't understand why I thought they sounded so bad. Most even refused my offer of more money off instead of the Bose:eek:
Very different expectations and experience. Who is the 'normal' one? Well, not me obviously, I, like so many of my audio loving friends, am extraordinary. So why should the industry cater for the merely normal?
Good post Yetkin.
Hope my english will be enough to explain myself :) There are many reasons why the people try to make themself some hobbies;
1) I believe all of us have problems in our life more or less, due to daily effects. Politicians, relatives problems, problems at work... Even people comparably wealthy, have!! We are aimed to protect ourselves mentally :)
2) After retirement... Entering from a busy and active life to a life more free time.
3) Everybody has some free time during normal life, to seal that gap. (In some cases and sometimes that hobby becomes our job after retirement. DIY works to lets say turntable repair workshop...)
...
At the end everybody has some hobby due to from one or more above personal reasons. It can be Hi-Fi Music, watch, wine, food, car, reading books, watching movies, playing computer games, chess, backgammon etc.
Each and every type of hobby has some internal dynamics influence the people.
On the other hand each and everyone of us has personal preferences, taste, expectation, way of enjoyment.
All those things form our hobby. In almost all hobby type there are range of products. Even chess .. There are chess set costs Xk Pound. Do I pay for a chess set that much, NO, but there are people who will give. On the other hand who worked all his life for "a beautiful house, inside a garden" spends his time to find different internal designs, materials, details which makes him happy. He filled his free time with that. For him Hi-Fi may not be a priority. Maybe after that will be, who knows.
I will come to Hi-Fi... Due to personal preferences, taste, expectation, way of enjoyment all of us has different components in our system. A sound which is beautiful for me, may not be beautiful for somebody else. Due to that reason I do not like directly to say this equipment is awful, that cable is horrible. It is valid to many thousends of pounds equipments.
Besides that many times it was written in this topic, there are marketing choices of companies. Sometimes in capitalism you create a "star" and sell them to people (can be singer, can be equipment, can be wine...) To be the most expensive do not mean to be the best.
For the idea Hi-Fi is loosing importance, I do not aggree. Many people listen to music from compact, small systems, to Mp3, uses smartphones etc. Because as I tried to explain myself, "that is not a priority for them in their life" Maybe they drink 1000 USD wine but they are not addicted to listen music from HiFi gears. (not common but shall be :) )
http://www.discwizards.com/images/articleImages/Vinyl-Sales-Graph-US-Market-1996-2012.png
This statistic is from discwizards.com and till 2012, vinil sales are groving up it shows US but even not only in US, globally increasing. You know, listening vinil has its own ritual, put the vinil on platter, carefully bring cartridge above, after 20 min go and change the other side again the same thing, protect them utmost care. etc But everything do not put back the people buying vinils. There are gears for everybodies personal preferences, taste, expectation, way of enjoyment, pocket. We choose from a big pool.
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