Useful political objection?

[DaveK]

Hi guys,
I'm not trying to start another thread which will lapse into another circular argument, 'onest guv!!
Our government, through it's Brussels reps, is about to sign off an agreement between Europe and the USA which will basically give big business the right to sue any national government for loss of profits caused by that government's legislation. Government's don't have any money of their own, they take what they want from us, the tax payers. This will make it even more difficult and unlikely for any government to put the interests of it's electorate above those of big business, even if it wanted to (increasingly unlikely IMHO but that's another story).
The governments involved seem to be trying to do this surreptitiously, through the 'back door' at Brussels. It may be beneficial to us all and I may be the next Emperor of China but once it's signed we're stuck with it. I am not going to splash out the details of this agreement because basically they are very complex and I would not claim to fully understand them. Can I suggest that you take a look at TTIP make your own mind up and act as you see fit?
Most of the 'unpalatable' side of these discussions is buried within the proposed legislation and is receiving even less publicity than the rest of it - for further info. see here: -

http://ttipaction.38degrees.org.uk/

TIA,
Dave.

[Markiii]

now that truly is atrocious, pretty much anything could be said to affect their profits, tax included

[loo]

The true cost of buying from Amazon and the like I'm afraid ,
Governments are mearly facilitaters for global business , they
Run things now:(

[synsei]

Won't be our problem after the EU referendum ;)

[loo]

Won't be our problem after the EU referendum ;)

Hi Dave, sadly I believe that will be another fiasco where we wont be allowed a real outcome

[synsei]

I'm an optimist Paul, indulge me in my fantasies... :D

[synsei]

Bloody independence referendums, you wait centuries for one and whadya know, two turn up at once!!! Sheesh!!! :lol:

[loo]

So am I Dave, but I think were doomed
by the way can we have your V guy Fawkes mask avatar back
seems appropriate in these heady political times:cool:

[Markiii]

it would be truly ironic if a successful challenge to the Scottish vote were simply to help them improve the manipulation of the EU one

[synsei]

So am I Dave, but I think were doomed
by the way can we have your V guy Fawkes mask avatar back
seems appropriate in these heady political times:cool:

Your wish is my command :D

[Macca]

Dave your link just links to the petition and a bit of blurb saying 'this is the worst thing ever.' Forgive my scepticism but do you have a link to something tangible that details exactly what this involves? It is just that lefties have an awful habit of just making stuff up with regard to this sort of thing e.g the 'bedroom tax'.

Thanks

[DaveK]

Martin,
One of the problems with this TTIP proposal is that it runs into several hundred pages of detail, as you might expect, it being intended to cover all aspects of all trade between Europe and the USA but aimed to be immediately agreed with other major trading blocs and countries around the world without much further negotiation. I have not read it but have received précis's of it from the 38Degrees organisation. They say they have taken detailed legal advice on the subject and are convinced that it is very much not in the general public interest. Having signed a few of their petitions in the past, mainly concerning the deterioration and privatisation of the NHS, and seen that they have often succeeded in getting the original harsh government proposals very much softened, I am motivated to accept their view on this that it is more in the interests of big business (a big 'bogey man' of mine I admit :) ) than it is in the interests of us mere mortals.
All I can recommend is that you do some digging for yourself - the problem is, according to 38Degrees, is that they hope to get this agreed without to much discussion and so have made picking out these sort of details more difficult than it otherwise might have been - good luck with your looking.
Dave.

[losenotaminute]

Martin,
One of the problems with this TTIP proposal is that it runs into several hundred pages of detail, as you might expect, it being intended to cover all aspects of all trade between Europe and the USA but aimed to be immediately agreed with other major trading blocs and countries around the world without much further negotiation. I have not read it but have received précis's of it from the 38Degrees organisation. They say they have taken detailed legal advice on the subject and are convinced that it is very much not in the general public interest. Having signed a few of their petitions in the past, mainly concerning the deterioration and privatisation of the NHS, and seen that they have often succeeded in getting the original harsh government proposals very much softened, I am motivated to accept their view on this that it is more in the interests of big business (a big 'bogey man' of mine I admit :) ) than it is in the interests of us mere mortals.
All I can recommend is that you do some digging for yourself - the problem is, according to 38Degrees, is that they hope to get this agreed without to much discussion and so have made picking out these sort of details more difficult than it otherwise might have been - good luck with your looking.
Dave.

Would you be kind enough to share the precis please?

Companies already have the right to sue governments if they introduce laws which breach European law. These kinds of cases keep our bureaucrats in Brussels and Luxembourg very busy. The right to free trade, and the right to property is already enshrined in European and UK law, so I seriously doubt that TTIP will change that.

According to http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/in-focus/ttip/about-ttip/ the deal is about improving trade between the US and European countries, which is something that sounds to me like it is in the interests of consumers. Privatisation of supply in the NHS is not necessarily a bad thing. If the private sector can provide services cheaper and better then why not? There is a large amount of research that shows that the private sector is, in many cases, significantly more efficient than the public sector. Do you really imagine that people working in the NHS aren't doing so partly for their own self interest? Have you ever met a doctor or a nurse? Have you seen the stats for accidents in the NHS? Did the public sector protect children in Rotheram? Is a monopoly with 1.4 million employees really likely to provide good outcomes for anyone but itself?

Signing an online petition without understanding the issues, based on an internet conspiracy theory, can only end in tears.

Lawrence

[DaveK]

Hi Lawrence,
I cannot argue with a word you post so I am not anti anything for the sake of it. At the age of 74 I have become a consistent customer of our health service so I am all in favour of more efficiency and improved service in that area, no matter how it may be achieved.
As you say there are already laws and agreements in place which would seem to have being doing a reasonable job of regulating trade across the pond and elsewhere - my interpretation of this is that tweaking these might be necessary and a good idea but tearing them up and starting afresh is another matter.
Please bear in mind that these changes have been initiated by big business, not their customers. If the customers and/or their Europe wide organisations felt the need for this don't you think they might have initiated any changes? Also, the new agreement is being discussed by the EU as a whole, not individual countries, and the USA. Don't alarm bells start ringing in your mind when new agreements with the potential to massively impact on your life are being discussed in a backroom in Brussels and any details about them are somehow difficult to obtain. If it is going to be customer neutral or even customer beneficial don't you think much more information about it would be readily available.?
If you cannot be arsed to at least try to look into it and judge for yourself you may well get the agreement you deserve - whether that will be beneficial or neutral as far as you are concerned appears to be an open question at the moment but one thing is for sure - it will be far easier to get it scrutinised now, before it is agreed, than it will be to get it annulled or changed after it has been agreed.
Your call.
Dave.

PS.
A simple 'Google' turned up this: -

http://blog.38degrees.org.uk/tag/ttip/

I'm sure you could find others if you tried.
Dave.

[losenotaminute]

Hi Lawrence,
I cannot argue with a word you post so I am not anti anything for the sake of it. At the age of 74 I have become a consistent customer of our health service so I am all in favour of more efficiency and improved service in that area, no matter how it may be achieved.
As you say there are already laws and agreements in place which would seem to have being doing a reasonable job of regulating trade across the pond and elsewhere - my interpretation of this is that tweaking these might be necessary and a good idea but tearing them up and starting afresh is another matter.
Please bear in mind that these changes have been initiated by big business, not their customers. If the customers and/or their Europe wide organisations felt the need for this don't you think they might have initiated any changes? Also, the new agreement is being discussed by the EU as a whole, not individual countries, and the USA. Don't alarm bells start ringing in your mind when new agreements with the potential to massively impact on your life are being discussed in a backroom in Brussels and any details about them are somehow difficult to obtain. If it is going to be customer neutral or even customer beneficial don't you think much more information about it would be readily available.?
If you cannot be arsed to at least try to look into it and judge for yourself you may well get the agreement you deserve - whether that will be beneficial or neutral as far as you are concerned appears to be an open question at the moment but one thing is for sure - it will be far easier to get it scrutinised now, before it is agreed, than it will be to get it annulled or changed after it has been agreed.
Your call.
Dave.

PS.
A simple 'Google' turned up this: -

http://blog.38degrees.org.uk/tag/ttip/

I'm sure you could find others if you tried.
Dave.

I started watching the video and had to give up near the end. Almost everything they said was inaccurate, or just plain wrong. I do have some knowledge on a few of the issues they mentioned (fracking, banking regulation, NAFTA) but I'm fairly sure you don't want me to go through every point. It saddens me if this is the level of their argument - they shouldn't make a case by spreading lies for political purposes, it's immoral IMO.

And it's not being negotiated "in secret", that is hardly fair either:
http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/in-focus/ttip/have-your-say/

[DaveK]

I stand corrected, maybe. Only problem is that 38Degrees is supposedly independent on this subject whilst the EU can hardly say the same. I'm sure more will come out of the negotiations as time goes on so no harm done if this is the case. Let's see what happens. 38Degrees don't usually set red herrings running(??? :lol: ) so I am not dismissing their concerns yet.
Dave.

[losenotaminute]

I stand corrected, maybe. Only problem is that 38Degrees is supposedly independent on this subject whilst the EU can hardly say the same. I'm sure more will come out of the negotiations as time goes on so no harm done if this is the case. Let's see what happens. 38Degrees don't usually set red herrings running(??? :lol: ) so I am not dismissing their concerns yet.
Dave.

Indeed so Dave. It doesn't do anyone any harm to find out more, and if you feel strongly to get involved. The public will be given a chance to vote on this kind of thing should the Tories win the next general election.

I'm no fan of Europe and honestly don't know which way I would vote if there were a referendum. However, if the Brexit campaign adopt similar tactics to those used by the SNP in the Scottish referendum, then it will just push me to vote to stay in and I bet I'm not alone.

Lawrence

[DaveK]

For anyone wanting a bit more information, I have just received this from 38Degrees: -

https://uk-mg42.mail.yahoo.com/neo/launch?.partner=sky&.rand=2jj1vlhd3dt0f

It opens for me - hope it's not specific and will open for you.
Dave.

[Macca]

I have also watched the video and it is 100% empty rhetoric. Note they make a big point of saying that a mining company sued the Canadian government for £250 million. I looked into this a bit and all that can be found are news cutting s from over a year ago that say that the company intends to sue. Nothing at all on subsequent events, so I can only conclude that it did not go ahead - probably because it turned out they did not have legal grounds. The video deliberately mis-represents this, suggesting that the Canadian government paid up.

Catch these people out in one lie and you are a fool not to distrust everything else they say (see also: Man Made Global Warming).

[losenotaminute]

http://order-order.com/2014/09/26/clicktivisms-new-politics-same-as-old-top-down-politics-38degrees-ruling-clique-evade-backing-raf-strikes/