Caiman MK2 measurements

[mkrzych]

Hello,
I can quite understand Stan's resistance to show us some measurements of the latest CMII DAC, but I think at least some should be available. I've read lots of DAC reviews on Stereophile magazine and other websites and there are all the measured information done by the magazine itself, but when you go to the producer page at least all the information about the THD, S/N, jitter rejection etc. are also available. Why not to put some for CMII?

What is most interesting to me is the real resolution in bits and its S/N ratio (noise floor), which is AFAIR one of the most important thing. If feeding the CMII with 24/96 data, what kind of real resolution I can expect - 20bits or more? 20bits is rather superior for the mid level DACs as I know, can CMII do better and lower the S/N if fed by the 24bit stream vs. 16bit?

What is the THD for the RCA outs and headphone out and linearity +/- for the particular sampling rates? This could be useful data to see if the DAC is on the warm/cold sounding side and what bit depth and sampling rate together are the best to feed the DAC section.

I hope that some of the above questions may be answered without too much secrecy?

[brian2957]

To most of the members here ( and probably elsewhere ) measurements mean little or nothing. The only measuring tool I need is my ears and Stans DACs always score highly in the area of sound quality when I measure them .

[mkrzych]

To most of the members here ( and probably elsewhere ) measurements mean little or nothing. The only measuring tool I need is my ears and Stans DACs always score highly in the area of sound quality when I measure them .

Well, that's somehow true, so why not to give us those values if everyone is doing so? BTW, I cannot see Stan's DAC in your signature ;-)

[brian2957]

I've had a few of Stans DACs . I had to spend considerably more to better it ( to my ears ) in my system . I didn't look at the measurements of my new DAC either , my ears told me what I needed to know . Just my opinion of course :)

[icehockeyboy]

Does anyone actually purchase using measurements as a guide?

I certainly don't, I use my ears, as most others here do.

[mkrzych]

Does anyone actually purchase using measurements as a guide?

I certainly don't, I use my ears, as most others here do.

Of course nobody purchase using measurements as a guide, but those measurements are helpful within this process and may narrow your shortlist with things to audition later on.

[synsei]

We are in danger of turning this into a subjective/objective argument, Krzyztof's enquiry is perfectly valid although it is up to Stan whether he is willing to provide the measurements requested ;)

The guys are correct though Krzyztof, a unit which measures well isn't necessarily going to be the best sounding in all cases ;)

[StanleyB]

Since that faithful night when I was in boarding school and the headboy demanded that all of us in year six should be measured up to find out which lucky five would get a chance to score with the local hooker on a free end of year treat, I have gone off measurements. It was a close call for me coming in at number five.

I don't issue measurements, because I don't design products by that standard. If anyone wants to buy according to measurements, then please look for such products elsewhere. I worked as technical manager for more than a decade doing measurements, and then submitting the best possible samples to the testhouse to get them rectified. I doubt that any production version of those products ever came within a mile of achieving the same specs as the carefully selected samples.
It's like asking how many miles to the gallon a car can achieve, and the 0 to 60MPH acceleration. Show me the driver who has managed to get those same specs from their vehicle. Measurement specs are a thing of fables.

[struth]

How many in year six?:lol:

Nice of the head boy to think of the lads though;)

PS, I agree totally. All those measurements you see are never going to be achieved in practice

[StanleyB]

How many in year six?:lol:

Nice of the head boy to think of the lads though;)
Off hand, I think that there were 51 of us at the time :). The local service provider was an efficient collector of our pocket money. She gave junior discounts :D.

[mkrzych]

Since that faithful night when I was in boarding school and the headboy demanded that all of us in year six should be measured up to find out which lucky five would get a chance to score with the local hooker on a free end of year treat, I have gone off measurements. It was a close call for me coming in at number five.

I don't issue measurements, because I don't design products by that standard. If anyone wants to buy according to measurements, then please look for such products elsewhere. I worked as technical manager for more than a decade doing measurements, and then submitting the best possible samples to the testhouse to get them rectified. I doubt that any production version of those products ever came within a mile of achieving the same specs as the carefully selected samples.
It's like asking how many miles to the gallon a car can achieve, and the 0 to 60MPH acceleration. Show me the driver who has managed to get those same specs from their vehicle. Measurement specs are a thing of fables.

Stan, that's clear. I am not going to buy by specs, but those are somehow useful to know IMHO. If you don't want to show us those, maybe you can answer without the real values, but giving us your answer based on your internal measurements. Sounds good?

[DaveK]

First time I've really envied anyone who was boarding school educated ;) . It is, after all, an important factor in life and therefore should be part of the education of any well rounded citizen. If it was an RC boarding school you were unfortunate enough to be sent to I suspect the 'fathers' either took a cut from the service provider or in kind from young village lads she 'put their way' who enjoyed the experience more than most would. I grew up with a RC boarding college in the next village and heard things first hand that put me off religion, and particularly the RC version of it, for life. Not just from the boarders either, some of my mates were Alter Boys at the college church.
Definitely not the 'good ol' days'.
Dave.

[mkrzych]

Stan, that's clear. I am not going to buy by specs, but those are somehow useful to know IMHO. If you don't want to show us those, maybe you can answer without the real values, but giving us your answer based on your internal measurements. Sounds good?

Any chance to get some hints about above?

[zilch0md]

I really like this Robert Harley quote from Chapter 1 of Dan Cheever's 2001 Master's thesis titled, A New Methodology for Audio Frequency Power Amplifier Testing Based on Psychoacoustic Data that Better Correlates with Sound Quality




In September on 1995, Stereophile, an established highly respected hi-fi magazine, ran a review of the Cary 300SEI, the first mainstream review of a single ended amplifier. In this design, a single output device is tasked with producing both polarities of the signal swing and had zero negative feedback. Robert Harley (not Hartley), one of the senior reviewers, states:


The 300SEI communicated music in a way I’d never experienced before. There was an immediacy and palpability to the sound that was breathtaking- a musical immediacy the riveted my attention to the music. It reproduced massed violins with beauty unmatched by any electronics I’ve had in my system. It excelled in the most important areas: Harmonic rightness, total lack of grain, astonishing transparency, lifelike sound staging, and a palpability that made the instruments and voices exist in the room.

The article then follows with lab bench test results. They were easily the poorest result in every specification; output power, frequency response, output impedance, total harmonic distortion, intermodulation distortion, and cross-talk.


This amplifier measured so poorly as to be a joke…contrary to what we consider good technical performance. I’m convinced the 300SEI doesn’t harm the signal in ways push-pull amplifiers do, and that what the 300SEI does right is beyond the ability of today’s traditional measurements to quantify. I have become convinced single ended tube amplifiers sound fabulous in spite of their distortion, not because of it.

Stereophile Magazine. September 1995 pp.141-149.

The purpose of this thesis is to investigate if there are measurement parameters that have been overlooked, avoided, or conveniently been ignored in the reproduction of quality sound for human enjoyment.



The entire thesis can be read here: http://www.dancheever.com/main/cheever_thesis_final.pdf

Robert Harley, the Stereophile reviewer quoted by Dan Cheever, is the author of The Complete Guide to High-End Audio
http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Guide-High-End-Audio/dp/0978649311

Mike

[Xaval]

Great flashback! I remember auditioning that Cary extensively back in the day. Fabulous amp. Regretably not enough juice for the Avalons I had at home... those were the crazy days when I had the silly idea that I could bring the band homw into the living room... loads of silly money thrown at audio systems and not really caring too much for the music. Lesson learned :)

[mkrzych]

Great flashback! I remember auditioning that Cary extensively back in the day. Fabulous amp. Regretably not enough juice for the Avalons I had at home... those were the crazy days when I had the silly idea that I could bring the band homw into the living room... loads of silly money thrown at audio systems and not really caring too much for the music. Lesson learned :)
You can't bring the band home, but you can be very close, at least what you consider the natural sound. I think Stan is really good at producing natural sounding devices with good PRAT.