View Full Version : Expose government corruption NOW!!
Do your bit and help expose the corruption in our current government by clicking on the following link and SIGNING for an official investigation to take place into the vote counting procedures during the recent Scottish referendum:
https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/independent-enquiry-for-scottish-referendum-vote-count
If you abhor political corruption and being by ruled by the interests of the London-centric Tory/Lab establishment, as I do, and seek recompense for their suspected rigging of the referendum, then SIGN IT NOW, folks!!
Marco.
This must be a first - a forum owner spamming his own forum!
AoS is always breaking new ground... ;)
AoS is always breaking new ground... ;)
Ah, yes; first forum to ban its owner, IIRC!
Lol… I’m simply using the influence I have to generate as many signatures as I can to support something that I’m very passionate about: exposing corruption and ensuring fairness and equality wherever possible, by fighting against the establishment.
Have you signed the petition yet, Joe? If not, get a move on - hurry, hurry Mrs Murray! ;)
Marco.
I'm not signing any sodding petition!
Every time you post here, though, you’re ensuring that the thread remains at the top of the page, so keep up the good work! :ner:
Marco.
The Barbarian
21-09-2014, 10:25
I aint playing the game either Joe. I try my best to stay away from this place these days at best of times.
I’m sorry you disagree, Andre, but this is something I feel very passionate about. Do you not dislike corruption?
Marco.
Ok I'll vote, (but I'm afraid it will be seen as rigging the petition)
losenotaminute
21-09-2014, 14:39
Why do you think it was rigged and how? The petition just says they want an enquiry but doesn't give any reason.
Have you not seen this video, Lawrence:
LbJif7vISQg
Now, I know that such things can be fixed, and so the evidence of vote rigging presented there is far from conclusive, but (along with other things I’ve been sent and also read myself since the referendum), I can smell more than a faint whiff of corruption, in terms of ‘the establishment’ were simply never going to allow Scotland to leave the union, so voting for independence was largely a complete was of time.
My view is that if there’s been even a faint hint of any wrong-doing, that is a very serious matter, and so it deserves to be exposed and investigated accordingly! :)
Marco.
My view is that if there’s been even a faint hint of any wrong-doing, that is a very serious matter, and so it deserves to be exposed and investigated accordingly! :)
Marco.
Well let us assume that Mr 'Elite NWO Agenda' is correct, and is not some bizarre, tin-foil hat wearing nut with an agenda. Who will investigate the wrong doing? Why, the 'Establishment' of course and there is no way that the Establishment's investigation will declare that there was vote rigging in the same way there was no way in which they would have allowed Scotland to vote 'Yes'. So either way heads you lose tails they win. Conspiracy theorist can be a frustrating career.
The Barbarian
21-09-2014, 15:37
Sorry can't find a boring amicon!
Well, Martin, my view is that it’s worth exposing the matter just to see what comes of it, and also the satisfaction (if it does get to being investigated) of being a thorn in the side/nuisance of ‘the establishment’.
People should always fight for what they believe in, rather than simply bowing down to ‘the powers that be’. Personally, if there was sufficient justification, I’d love a revolt!!
Marco.
Personally, if there was sufficient justification, I’d love a revolt!!
Marco.
In four days you've gone from being disinterested in politics to interested, to political activist and now to revolutionary. At this pace by Tuesday you will be a burnt out, cynical, disillusioned old hack taking bungs and appearing on the next Celebrity Big Brother. ;)
The Barbarian
21-09-2014, 15:47
:lol:
In four days you've gone from being disinterested in politics to interested, to political activist and now to revolutionary. At this pace by Tuesday you will be a burnt out, cynical, disillusioned old hack taking bungs and appearing on the next Celebrity Big Brother. ;)
:lolsign:
When I’m passionate about something (like I was with highlighting to all and sundry about how good a modded Techy was), I’ll fight to the death for the cause! ;)
Marco.
The Barbarian
21-09-2014, 15:53
:rolleyes:
Andre, if all you’re going to do today is spam the forum with :rolleyes: smilies and say you’re bored, just because you don’t agree with my stance on Scottish independence (as for some reason you consider it as anti-English), we can soon put a stop to that.
If you’ve got nothing positive to contribute to a discussion, then ignore it.
Marco.
losenotaminute
21-09-2014, 16:24
Have you not seen this video, Lawrence:
LbJif7vISQg
Now, I know that such things can be fixed, and so the evidence of vote rigging presented there is far from conclusive, but (along with other things I’ve been sent and also read myself since the referendum), I can smell more than a faint whiff of corruption, in terms of ‘the establishment’ were simply never going to allow Scotland to leave the union, so voting for independence was largely a complete was of time.
My view is that if there’s been even a faint hint of any wrong-doing, that is a very serious matter, and so it deserves to be exposed and investigated accordingly! :)
Marco.
That video doesn't prove anything. She moved some ballot papers which were marked No to a pile of No votes, how is that rigging an election?
Both sides have observers at every count standing by the tables watching what is happening, and have the right to call over the Returning Officer if they see anything untoward. If the result is close they can ask for a re-count. Are you honestly saying that you think the whole vote was rigged at the count by some of the people counting the votes? I'm a bit scared by how nutty that is.
Well, 75,000 people (and growing) seem to think differently:
https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/independent-enquiry-for-scottish-referendum-vote-count
If they’ve got nothing to hide, then what harm would an official investigation have? For example, it should be relatively easy to identify the people shown in the video. I would like them questioned as to *exactly* what they were doing. If it comes out that it was totally innocent and above board, then fine, at least we’ll know :)
Marco.
losenotaminute
21-09-2014, 16:35
Well, 75,000 people (and growing) seem to think differently:
https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/independent-enquiry-for-scottish-referendum-vote-count
If they’ve got nothing to hide, then what harm would an official investigation have? For example, it should be relatively easy to identify the people shown in the video. I would like them questioned as to *exactly* what they were doing. If it comes out that it was totally innocent and above board, then fine, at least we’ll know :)
Marco.
Hardly. 75,000 have clicked a link that some dickhead put up on the internet, without any evidence at all to suggest anything was done wrong.
Nope, there are 75,000 signatures on the petition. Read it properly, and the matter has also been on the news. Which “dickhead” are you referring to?
Marco.
awkwardbydesign
21-09-2014, 16:39
Well, 75,000 people (and growing) seem to think differently:
https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/independent-enquiry-for-scottish-referendum-vote-count
If they’ve got nothing to hide, then what harm would an official investigation have? For example, it should be relatively easy to identify the people shown in the video. I would like them questioned as to *exactly* what they were doing. If it comes out that it was totally innocent and above board, then fine, at least we’ll know :)
Marco.
The way I've heard it, the YES voters in Glasgow were double voting. This petition just sounds like sour grapes by the losers.
Anyway, how do you tell if a politician is lying? Their lips move! The YES campaign lost; get over it.
losenotaminute
21-09-2014, 16:40
Nope, 75,000 have signed the petition. Read it properly, and the matter has been on the news. And which “dickhead” are you referring to?
Marco.
The one who doesn't have any evidence or understand the safeguards that are in place and put up the "petition".
We obviously don't agree on this so let's just leave it.
Do you mean the “safeguards” put in place by our corrupt government, who in turn are in the pockets of ’the establishment’?
Anyway, yes, let’s just agree to disagree :)
Marco.
awkwardbydesign
21-09-2014, 16:49
Do you mean the “safeguards” put in place by our corrupt government, who in turn are in the pockets of ’the establishment’?
Anyway, yes, let’s just agree to disagree :)
Marco.
Does that mean you will now close this thread? I think you would if it was anyone else's.
The whole referendum question was divisive, and now you are perpetuating it.
The YES campaign lost; get over it.
I am over it, but if I’m not convinced that the result was genuine. A whiff of corruption still lingers, and that irks me. My view is that if there is nothing to hide, then why not ask the people shown in the video exactly what they were doing? What harm is there in that?
Marco.
Does that mean you will now close this thread? I think you would if it was anyone else's.
The whole referendum question was divisive, and now you are perpetuating it.
Not at all, I’m allowing constructive opinions to be expressed, for those who wish to do so, whereas you’re advocating censorship. If you’ve got nothing to say about the matter, then just ignore this thread. Simples!
Marco.
I must admit if I where rigging votes at an election I would be sure to do it whilst a camera crew were stood there filming me. That would make perfect sense.
Yes, very good. The point is, it was being filmed secretly!
Marco.
Gordon Steadman
21-09-2014, 17:01
Yes, very good. The point is, it was being filmed secretly!
Marco.
Sort of set a thief to catch a thief then:eyebrows:
Lol… Everyone’s got cameras on their mobile phones these days, and with them, the ability to make videos. You can tell from the picture quality of the YouTube video that it was most likely produced on such a device.
The folk ‘caught on camera’ in that video certainly haven’t got a clue they are being filmed! It looks likely to have been done by someone 'on the inside', during the process of the vote counting.
All others and I are asking for is a proper explanation of what those shown in the video were actually doing. No big deal, if everything was above board, I wouldn’t have thought?
Marco.
awkwardbydesign
21-09-2014, 17:10
Not advocating, just pointing out there seem to be 2 sets of rules.
Where does it say in the rules a thread like this should be closed? Point me please to the set of rules you claim are being broken…..
Marco.
Gordon Steadman
21-09-2014, 17:23
No doubt any rule can be circumvented, just ask a politician. Don't suppose it applies here.
What this does show is that it really is a good idea to avoid politics as hackles rise and perfectly amicable relationships can be tested unnecessarily.
75,000 poor losers, quelle surprise
I'm so sure you'd have wanted an investigation if the Yes vote had won, NOT
I do not see a problem with the thread tbh. I have seen plenty other sites do similar type of things.
My view is that if there is nothing to hide, then why not ask the people shown in the video exactly what they were doing? What harm is there in that?
Marco.
And would you believe them if you didn't like their answers? - unlikely I suspect because you don't like the overwhelming, yes overwhelming, decision of the Scottish people. Tilting at windmills springs to mind - let it drop, you lost, end of, move on.
Dave.
Indeed, Gordon, which is why I normally avoid discussing politics like the plague, in real life or on forums. However, this is something I feel exceptionally strongly about, which is why I’m ‘going to town’ on it.
What annoys me nearly as much, though, is why my actions here are by some being deemed as ‘anti-English'? And also why English people appear to be equate challenging the voting system as 'attacking England'? That’s the distinct impression I’m getting. Anyone care to explain that?
That really rips my knitting, not just because I’m not anti-English (just ask my many English friends here in Wales), but it smacks both of sheer stupidity (not being able to grasp what my obvious real motivation here is) and/or that they have some ulterior motive of their own for not wanting the issue discussed…. :hmm:
Marco.
And would you believe them if you didn't like their answers?
I would accept the results of the investigation without any qualms - but an investigation I would like. Everyone knows what your views are, Dave. You made those very clear in what you’ve written elsewhere! ;)
Marco.
Spectral Morn
21-09-2014, 17:37
I think regardless as to whether one has or had or doesn't have a horse in this particular race that the possibility that the democratic process was circumvented would unite all to ask a few questions about this. I think frankly this goes beyond party politics, whether one is interested or not, as all government, from local to national hinges on the 100% accuracy, honesty and fairness of the electoral process.
If the Scottish referendum failed to be that then I would have hoped all regardless of position would be concerned enough to suspend political hostility or disinterest to ask for an investigation.
Will this alter the result, maybe, maybe not but regardless I am sad that folks are reacting in such a manner because democracy is a pretty fundamental thing and defending its integrity and holding those who facilitate it to account is important imho.
Regards Neil
75,000 poor losers, quelle surprise
I'm so sure you'd have wanted an investigation if the Yes vote had won, NOT
Yes I would’ve done, if the voting process smacked of fraud. You don’t seem to get it, do you? This is about achieving what’s right and fair, and ensuring that the law hasn’t been broken - nothing else. If you’re seeing anything else here, it’s because of your obvious bias. “75,000 poor losers” indeed!
Marco.
I think regardless as to whether one has or had or doesn't have a horse in this particular race that the possibility that the democratic process was circumvented would unite all to ask a few questions about this. I think frankly this goes beyond party politics, whether one is interested or not, as all government, from local to national hinges on the 100% accuracy, honesty and fairness of the electoral process.
If the Scottish referendum failed to be that then I would have hoped all regardless of position would be concerned enough to suspend political hostility or disinterest to ask for an investigation.
Not if you’ve got an anti-Scottish agenda Neil, and thus are taking umbrage at the ‘audacity’ of the Scots not simply just shutting up and ‘obeying the system’! :rolleyes:
Marco.
I am sad that folks are reacting in such a manner
I think that folks are reacting in such a manner for two reasons, neither of which have anything to do with the ballot per se:
1) Marco's previous line that 'politics is boring, let's not talk about it' suddenly becomes 'sign this petition NOW'
2) One of the several threads about it was in an audio room (made a sticky in there, for good measure!) when Marco and other mods are forever banging on about the need for posts to be 'in the correct room'.
In brief, it's seen as being one rule for Marco, different rules for everyone else.
I think that folks are reacting in such a manner for two reasons, neither of which have anything to do with the ballot per se:
1) Marco's previous line that 'politics is boring, let's not talk about it' suddenly becomes 'sign this petition NOW'
2) One of the several threads about it was in an audio room (made a sticky in there, for good measure!) when Marco and other mods are forever banging on about the need for posts to be 'in the correct room'.
In brief, it's seen as being one rule for Marco, different rules for everyone else.
I think there’s rather more to it than that, Joe. However, to pacify others and you who are so annoyed about me posting the thread in Blank Canvas, I shall remove it. Then, we’ll see if that annoyance disappears, eh? ;)
As for 1) I’ve already told you that this matter is an exception.
Marco.
I am sad that folks are reacting in such a manner
Me too, but it’s exposing a few rather interesting things about people here that I didn’t realise existed. All useful to know, though…! ;)
Marco.
Yeah, we're all anti-Scottish including those of us with 100% more Scottish ancestry than you!
I never said that you were all anti-Scottish, merely that some of the sentiments expressed here smack a little of it. It appears to irritate certain people when our political system is legitimately challenged and some Scottish people don’t just lie down and do what they’ve been told. Why?
Anyway, Joe, the thread has now been removed from Blank Canvas, but no doubt you’ll still find something else to moan about! ;)
Marco.
You're the one doing the moaning! 'It isnae fair, we wiz robbed, they stole wur oil' etc etc. This 'the vote was rigged' stuff is just a bunch of Internet blowhards with too much time on their hands, and the fact that 75,000 have signed their petition means bugger all; many more people vote in the X-Factor every week.
FWIW, my father was Scottish, he served in the (British) Royal Navy in WWII and had no time at all for Scottish nationalists whom he saw as a bunch of narrow-minded bigots.
Anyway, rather more interestingly, it appears that I’ve read the petition wrongly… 75,000 people haven’t signed it YET. However, that’s the target figure, and it’s getting ever closer to being reached.
The current total of signatures is 60,523. However, if you refresh the page at regular intervals, you’ll see the number rising rather quickly! :)
Have a look: https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/independent-enquiry-for-scottish-referendum-vote-count
Marco.
You're the one doing the moaning! 'It isnae fair, we wiz robbed, they stole wur oil' etc etc.
I thought you were supposed to be intelligent? For the umpteenth time, that was NOT my motivation for starting this thread: it was to help expose what I believe to be genuine fraud/corruption. Any chance you could get that into your thick head sometime soon and stop being deliberately obtuse? ;)
Ta!
This 'the vote was rigged' stuff is just a bunch of Internet blowhards with too much time on their hands, and the fact that 75,000 have signed their petition means bugger all; many more people vote in the X-Factor every week.
Well, we’ll have to agree to disagree about it meaning bugger all. At the rate the petition is being signed, I think if it was allowed to run for longer, the final signature total would be far higher!
FWIW, my father was Scottish, he served in the (British) Royal Navy in WWII and had no time at all for Scottish nationalists whom he saw as a bunch of narrow-minded bigots.
That’s good to know, and thanks for the info. However, I’m not a Scottish nationalist. In fact, I’ve never in my life voted SNP.
Marco.
Gordon Steadman
21-09-2014, 18:29
What this does show is that it really is a good idea to avoid politics as hackles rise and perfectly amicable relationships can be tested unnecessarily.
See what I mean?:rolleyes:
Sure, Gordon, but at the moment it’s just a robust debate :)
I’m afraid that I can’t help addressing contentious subjects - it’s in my blood! Never been a shirker in that sense ;)
Marco.
twickers
21-09-2014, 18:54
Hi Marco
I can't remember you starting any other threads pertaining to corruption within Government*. Are some forms of corruption more important to you than others, or is this simply about the Scottish vote.
*If you have apologies.
Hi Paul,
I hate all forms of corruption, but yes, this potential example is of particular significance to me, as it involves a subject that is very close to my heart: Scotland one day gaining their justified independence, and Scottish people steadfastly refusing to be 'kept in their place’ by the establishment, rejecting being ruled by irrelevant (to them) London-centric political policies, and sticking two fat fingers up to the c*nty chinless wonders in Westminster, whom I detest more than words can say!
Will that do? :)
Marco.
This is a good article to read: http://www.transparency.org/topic/detail/politics_and_government
Here is a big part of my motivation for starting this thread:
But political corruption isn’t just about election rigging. It can lead politicians in office to steer away from good government. Their decisions can benefit those who fund them. The public interest comes second. Political corruption can divert scarce resources from poor and disadvantaged people.
…and that applies particularly to the activities of ‘the establishment’ in the UK, so when we can, we must fight them.
Now, be sure to hit the ‘Solution’ button (contained in the above article), observing this:
We need to call on our politicians and public officials to be accountable for their actions. How can we trust them if we don’t know what they’re doing? We must demand that they put in place regulations which will force them to act openly. Then corruption can’t hide.
:exactly:
…which is why I hope that there is a full investigation into the claimed vote rigging during the recent referendum for Scottish independence. Simples :)
Marco.
Marco,
I would never denigrate your right to protest any decision that you feel strongly about - that's one of the few freedoms we still have left - but the best way to protest such political decisions is in a political arena IMHO, not in an audio forum, where you run the genuine risk of p*ssing off many of your otherwise loyal and appreciative members. We (not you!!) have a great audio forum here IMO (otherwise why would I be so keen to get back in twice!! but you are now seriously running the risk of alienating many of those loyal and appreciative members - the evidence is there for you to see, please don't ignore it. Are you willing to sacrifice AoS on the alter of your (apparently) new interest in political shenanigans - if so why, it's not a new phenomenon?
And your conviction that 'everyone knows what my feelings are' is completely wrong I can assure you. What everyone knows, I hope, is that I do not share your views on this subject, no more and no less, and I am not afraid to post so, despite your (or a member of your Admin team as a misplaced act of loyalty to the boss) earlier censorship by removing a previous similar post - not the first time I have suffered this fate on here.
I repeat, protest away at what you perceive as the possible injustices perpetrated during the referendum count. I can categorically assure you that you feel no more strongly about the prostitution and corruption in politics and the deleterious effect it has on the lives of all strata of public life than I do, not one iota!!. My objections to these events is not newly discovered or publicised but I see no point in trying to change the public 'lot' via an audio forum, no matter how 'leading' the audio forum might see itself.
Please read, digest and reassess.
WBW,
Dave.
I would never denigrate your right to protest any decision that you feel strongly about - that's one of the few freedoms we still have left - but the best way to protest such political decisions is in a political arena IMHO, not in an audio forum, where you run the genuine risk of p*ssing off many of your otherwise loyal and appreciative members.
As ever, I always give serious consideration to feedback from members. Therefore, may I ask what it is *exactly* that you feel is pissing people off so much, and do you consider yourself as one of them? If so, what precisely is pissing YOU off?
Is it because you perceive my stance as fundamentally anti-English (as in those I abhor in a current position of power, i.e. ’the establishment’, are mostly English), and find that irritating, or what is it that others and you are supposedly taking such umbrage to? Please be 100% frank and honest about that last question! ;)
Marco.
Also, Dave, could you please explain *exactly* what you meant by this comment, which you made on the ‘Alex Salmond steps down’ thread yesterday (specifically the text in bold):
Strange that Alex 'Wallace' Salmond (and the SNP) has accepted the result and not questioned the count or asked for anything to be investigated. Surely their 'inside' information would have jumped on this and tried to capitalise on it before falling on his sword.
Accept it Marco, you lost - end of. In 6 months time you will have forgotten all about it and hope we have.
And this which also seems to be linked, in terms of sentiment, with the above, which you posted directly after the ‘Yes’ vote lost:
The Chinese have a curse they hurl at those they seriously fall out with: "May you live in interesting times”.
Who are you suggesting have seriously fallen out with whom, and what are you insinuating might be the repercussions? Whatever these repercussions were, would you be in support of them?
Cheers :)
Marco.
Oldpinkman
21-09-2014, 20:37
Hi Paul,
I hate all forms of corruption, but yes, this potential example is of particular significance to me, as it involves a subject that is very close to my heart: Scotland one day gaining their justified independence, and Scottish people steadfastly refusing to be 'kept in their place’ by the establishment, rejecting being ruled by irrelevant (to them) London-centric political policies, and sticking two fat fingers up to the c*nty chinless wonders in Westminster, whom I detest more than words can say!
Will that do? :)
Marco.
Marco. Perhaps I missed something. I appreciate you are suggesting there may have been a fixed count. But that has yet to be established, and may never be. In the meantime the Scots themselves have chosen to stay in the union. The English weren't offered the vote, but as I have noted before I would have voted for an independent Scotland. But that isn't what the Scots chose. It seems a wee bit presumptuous to imply they didn't know their own tiny minds, and that they should have chosen "gaining their justified independence.
They were offered it. They did nae fancy it. Even I wouldn't presume to foist it on them.
twickers
21-09-2014, 20:38
Hi Paul,
I hate all forms of corruption, but yes, this potential example is of particular significance to me, as it involves a subject that is very close to my heart: Scotland one day gaining their justified independence, and Scottish people steadfastly refusing to be 'kept in their place’ by the establishment, rejecting being ruled by irrelevant (to them) London-centric political policies, and sticking two fat fingers up to the c*nty chinless wonders in Westminster, whom I detest more than words can say!
Will that do? :)
Marco.
I appreciate you feel pissed off that the vote didn't go the way you had hoped, but the Scottish people have voted for the c*nty chinless wonders, they had a chance to vote against being ruled by irrelevant policies and have decided to, as you say, be 'kept in their place' by the establishment.
Majority rule. Or maybe it isn't is simple as that?
The simple fact is not enough people voted to independence while the oppurtunity was there.(Alleged corruption aside).
Ninanina
21-09-2014, 20:42
This is a free 'bump' for you, however I won't be signing any petition..
I think 'No' was the correct vote.. but then I am not Scottish... I just think we are better off 'together'... sorry but that's just my view... ;)
Hi Richard.
In the meantime the Scots themselves have chosen to stay in the union.
Presuming of course that the ‘Yes’ votes weren’t being tampered with/deliberately not included by those counting the votes, and thus the result was genuine... *That* is the point.
What would happen, I wonder, if because of fraud, the result of the referendum was declared null and void, a re-vote was taken, this time with the vote counting being additionally supervised by an independent outside body, with no government connections, as is being suggested by those who have started the petition?
Between that (the ensuring of 100% accurate counting of the votes), and the sheer outrage amongst people, caused by corruption being proven, might the results next time be rather different? ;)
Marco.
I appreciate you feel pissed off that the vote didn't go the way you had hoped, but the Scottish people have voted for the c*nty chinless wonders, they had a chance to vote against being ruled by irrelevant policies and have decided to, as you say, be 'kept in their place' by the establishment.
Majority rule. Or maybe it isn't is simple as that?
The simple fact is not enough people voted to independence while the oppurtunity was there.(Alleged corruption aside).
Sure, but like Richard, you’re making the assumption that the vote counting wasn’t rigged. Let’s see what happens if an official investigation is carried out - and I’m hopeful that the petition (and other similar action currently being taken in that respect) will help make that happen.
Marco.
:lolsign:
When I’m passionate about something ... , I’ll fight to the death for the cause! ;)
Marco.
We have to save him.
Also, Dave, could you please explain *exactly* what you meant by this comment, which you made on the ‘Alex Salmond steps down’ thread yesterday (specifically the text in bold):
And this which also seems to be linked, in terms of sentiment, with the above, which you posted directly after the ‘Yes’ vote lost:
Who are you suggesting have seriously fallen out with whom, and what are you insinuating might be the repercussions? Whatever these repercussions were, would you be in support of them?
Cheers :)
Marco.
Marco,
To answer your two questions which sadly have not been quoted above, the comment about "hope we have forgotten all about" was an inference that in 6 months time you will have moved on, perhaps realised you took the whole subject far too seriously and would not enjoy being reminded about it. I am a little older than you, perhaps experienced a bit more life than you, and seen many of these all-important differences of opinion fade into insignificance in a few months as the situation changes or something else 'gets up your kilt'.
The comment about 'may you live in interesting times' was a direct and sole reference to Jerry's (jandl100) previous comment about there being interesting times ahead, no more, no less. This is the second time I have answered this question with the same reply. Do you have problems accepting my response or are you just trying to denigrate an opinion that is not completely in line with yours?
In regard to your other questions, I think my explanations were clear and explicit enough for anyone with an open mind. You ask about who are you pissing off - coincidentally a subsequent poster used exactly the same phrase and others have used it in previous posts. Like I said, the evidence is there for you to see, please don't ignore it.
I have no intention of responding to your other points for the reason stated above - they are clear enough for anyone who reads them with an open mind.
Why not start a poll: - are members being p*ssed off and/or turned off by the Corruption thread. Given that there is a tendency for members who are here for the audio only not to raise their heads above the battlements and vote 'Yes' the result might still prove interesting to both of us - always assuming that there will be no shenanigans with the count ;) .
twickers
21-09-2014, 21:11
Sure, but like Richard, you’re making the assumption that the vote counting wasn’t rigged. Let’s see what happens if an official investigation is carried out - and I’m hopeful that the petition (and other similar action currently being taken in that respect) will help make that happen.
Marco.
Hi Marco
The whole thread is based on assumption :doh: ;) so I don't see any difference until proven otherwise.
You ask about who are you pissing off - coincidentally a subsequent poster used exactly the same phrase and others have used it in previous posts. Like I said, the evidence is there for you to see, please don't ignore it.
That’s fine, Dave, I accept that. However, let’s just say that I’ll need a much better reason to ‘shut up’, as it were, than my stance on this matter being considered as irksome to/pissing off those with English sensibilities, who view it as an 'insult to their heritage'……! :eyebrows:
;)
Marco.
Hi Marco
The whole thread is based on assumption :doh: ;) so I don't see any difference until proven otherwise.
Yes, the assumption works both ways. Ok, well, we could leave the discussion ‘as is' until if or when there is an investigation carried out into the claimed vote rigging, and then see what happens if there is?
I’m cool with that :)
Marco.
Signatures now sitting at 61,242: https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/independent-enquiry-for-scottish-referendum-vote-count
That’s 719 new signatures since the last count was taken of 60,523, about three hours ago………..
Marco.
losenotaminute
21-09-2014, 22:07
Marco,
This is becoming ridiculous.
First of all you jump on a video which shows a vote counter placing No votes onto a No pile and conclude that the vote was rigged. When I pointed out that there are good safeguards in place at the count (observers from both sides) you choose to ignore this fact.
You then insult English people who have been to one of the best universities in the world and have earned themselves first class degrees as "chinless cunts", presumably because you don't agree with their policies, which I can only conclude you don't actually understand.
I did the same degree as Cameron at the same university at the same time and have similar views on the referendum, does that make me a chinless cunt?
Can you not see that no-one else agrees with you, does that not tell you something? Do you really imagine that you have some insight that nobody else is blessed with?
Lawrence
Can you not see that no-one else agrees with you, does that not tell you something?
That’s actually not the case, and besides, I wouldn’t expect much else on a forum that’s approximately 70% populated by English people, who almost certainly won’t share my views on this matter. However, that isn’t sufficient reason for 'shutting up’ about it. I've always been outspoken, and far from a shrinking violet, so I ain't changing now!
Anyway, I thought we were ‘agreeing to disagree’ and moving on, so have you finished yet? :)
Marco.
P.S You’re wrong about the video. Watch it again more closely and you’ll see that the woman is clearly taking votes from the ‘Yes” pile and putting them in the ‘No’ pile (fast-toward to 1:10 onwards):
LbJif7vISQg
Marco, I have English sensibilities, just like I have British sensibilities. I do not view your PoV as an insult to my English heritage. I do view it as misguided. :mental:
Dave.
Well, that’s cool, so we’ll just have to agree to disagree :)
I’m Italian first and foremost, as that’s my ethnicity, and Scottish second, as that’s my nationality - and North Wales is my current adopted home. The rest of the UK I don’t really give a jot about, in that respect, other than where my friends live and places I like to visit.
I certainly don’t consider myself as British. I wouldn’t have a Union Jack flag (or anything with a Union Jack on it) anywhere in my house, and I dislike the royal family and all that it stands for.
The only thing British about me is my passport.
Marco.
losenotaminute
21-09-2014, 22:27
That’s actually not the case, and besides, I wouldn’t expect much else on a forum that’s approximately 70% populated by English people, who almost certainly won’t share my opinions on this matter. However, that isn’t sufficient reason for 'shutting up’ about it.
Anyway, I thought we were ‘agreeing to disagree’ and moving on, so have you finished now? :)
Marco.
P.S You’re wrong about the video. Watch it again more closely and you’ll see that the woman is clearly taking votes from the ‘Yes” pile and putting them in the ‘No’ pile (fast-toward to 1:10 onwards):
LbJif7vISQg
No, I haven't finished. Your attitude is an insult to democracy, you should be ashamed of yourself :-)
Light Dependant Resistor
22-09-2014, 00:59
No, I haven't finished. Your attitude is an insult to democracy, you should be ashamed of yourself :-)
The insult to democracy is that the votes have not been counted correctly. I await the independant recount, and electoral body/police investigation proceeding as to the improper conduct of electoral officials.
Signatures now sitting at 61,242: https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/independent-enquiry-for-scottish-referendum-vote-count
That’s 719 new signatures since the last count was taken of 60,523, about three hours ago………..
Marco.
How many of those signed three times?
Oldpinkman
22-09-2014, 07:38
The insult to democracy is that the votes have not been counted correctly. I await the independant recount, and electoral body/police investigation proceeding as to the improper conduct of electoral officials.
I think most of us suspect you will have a long wait
Alex Salmond and the SNP must be aware of this by now, and are clearly not requesting a recount
The internet is full of loony videos getting the wrong end of the stick
The vote was carried out by the same independant polling services as always, with suitable independant observers from both sides at the counting stations
The result of the actual referendum very closely matched that of the exit polls - which it takes an extreme consipiracy theorist to conclude were similarly fixed
The hidden camera was probably an unhidden mobile phone - to be anything other suggests the secret grail society or Priory of Sion correctly anticipated vote rigging and stationed their knights in appropriate places to capture it. I think Bilbo Baggins was involved too
What exactly do we think the lady accused of rigging the votes was up to? Did she have a hidden earpiece, Sky sports commentator style? "Ay Flora, the vote is nae gaen our way lass. We have a 5.4% swing - can you move the necessary votes across to fix it love? I'll leave the math tae ye". If the wicked lady wanted to rig the vote, why didn't she put papers with an X in the "yes" box straight on the "No" pile? Why stack em all up on the "No's" first and then move them to the "yes"?
But you know the saying - "Just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean the bastards aren't out to get you"
;)
Gordon Steadman
22-09-2014, 07:56
-
What exactly do we think the lady accused of rigging the votes was up to? Did she have a hidden earpiece, Sky sports commentator style? "Ay Flora, the vote is nae gaen our way lass. We have a 5.4% swing - can you move the necessary votes across to fix it love? I'll leave the math tae ye". If the wicked lady wanted to rig the vote, why didn't she put papers with an X in the "yes" box straight on the "No" pile? Why stack em all up on the "No's" first and then move them to the "yes"?
She just looked totally confused to me. I certainly didn't see anything in that video that was any more convincing than the usual run of conspiracy theorists' epics. Has it been examined by 'experts' to check it hasn't been 'produced'?
Ronnie and I were discussing this this morning. She was terribly shocked when I told her I don't actually care as I only worry about things that directly affect my life directly these days. The perils of getting old. The younger generation deserves its time in the sun, they can bloody sort it.
She did say what happens if the pension does get affected. I'd get a gun and shoot the bastards or maybe I'd start on on-line petition.
maybe I'd start on on-line petition.
Hah! The modern-day equivalent of a strongly worded letter to The Times!
Gordon Steadman
22-09-2014, 08:24
Taken from the Independent comment section. Whilst i wouldn't argue with the view that any politician is a worm unworthy of regard, this does rather make sense to me. I'd leave out the last bit as unkind.
The conspiracy theorists might like to reflect that the separatists lost in 28 of the 32 local government areas. That means that the thousands of people involved in counting and checking the results in those areas were not only corrupt, but not one of them has spilt the beans.
If you think this is likely you need help.
We seem to be growing American style conspiracy theorists. Hopefully this is just blip more in line with people voting yet on emotional grounds who are now struggling to come to terms with democracy, they are in denial. Understandably it will take time for these folks to recover a more balanced view as they've had their dream shattered. The No voters are probably less emotional and more pragmatic. I do worry about those who grew in Britain not feeling British, Marco were you born in Britain / Scotland? I fear Jihadist overtones here, maybe Marco will you be fighting for Northern Italy independence or Southern Italy?
She was terribly shocked when I told her I don't actually care as I only worry about things that directly affect my life directly these days.
Aside from the Scottish independence issue (as that will always remain close to my heart), that’s pretty much where Del and I are at, with me these days being all but retired, and Del due to do the same in the very near future.
It’s why we mostly just watch the Welsh news, as what’s happening in our local area is what concerns us most, rather than the national one, and haven’t read a newspaper for about 15 years. As we’ve largely divorced ourselves from ‘the system’/rat race, and built our own ‘little island’, there aren’t many issues of modern life that directly affect us :)
She just looked totally confused to me...
Rigging aside then, perhaps incompetence is another angle to follow? Whatever way you cut it, she doesn’t look as if she’s doing her job properly. Incompetence could be responsible for an incorrect result, just as much as anything more sinister! ;)
Marco.
How many of those signed three times?
Is that your conspiracy theory now, Joe? :D
Marco.
Gordon Steadman
22-09-2014, 08:48
Rigging aside then, perhaps incompetence is another angle to do down? Whatever way you cut it, she doesn’t look as if she’s doing her job properly. Incompetence could be responsible for an incorrect result, just as much as anything more sinister! ;)
Marco.
I'm not sure that one incompetent in just one of the counting houses could be seen as a trend. 440,000 votes is an awful lot of incompetence:)
Yikes, I've been posting on all this politics stuff and me saying I'm not interested!!!! Back to the workshop with you sirrah!! (or maybe even the music room:eek:)
I do worry about those who grew in Britain not feeling British, Marco were you born in Britain / Scotland?
There’s nothing to worry about, Clive. I simply don’t feel an affinity with Britain. I have no remotely recent British ancestry (and yes I’ve looked), and I live my life very much in the Italian way. Although I love visiting parts of Britain, outside of Scotland and Wales, I just don’t feel much emotional connection with it.
Even when I’m abroad, speaking with foreign people, and they wonder which country I’m from, I’m keen to point out that I’m Scottish, not English or British (for various reasons), and then go onto explain my Italian ancestry. Yes unlike many Brits, I can speak a few foreign languages, and so am able to converse with locals in their own tongue, rather than arrogantly assuming/expecting that everyone else abroad speaks mine! ;)
No, I was born in Scotland, and so outside of Italy, that’s where my heart lies. One thing’s for sure, we’ll spending our dotage somewhere other than on these shores :)
Marco.
I'm not sure that one incompetent in just one of the counting houses could be seen as a trend. 440,000 votes is an awful lot of incompetence:)
Who’s to say the rest of them weren’t just as incompetent?
Joking aside though, just how difficult is it to separate a piece of paper with a ‘Yes’ vote on it from one with a ‘No’ vote - come on!! :doh:
So why on earth was the thick bint ‘confused’?? :rolleyes:
Marco.
if anyone is short of a straw, just ask Marco, I think he's currently clutching all of them
I was born in the borders, and the one overriding thought for all was that you played with the right shaped balls :wheniwasaboy:
Very good, Mark! Most of this is now is just a piss take, unless anything comes of the petition. Let’s check the numbers and see what they’re sitting at this morning…
https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/independent-enquiry-for-scottish-referendum-vote-count
61,834
Getting there! :eyebrows:
Marco.
I was born in the borders, and the one overriding thought for all was that you played with the right shaped balls :wheniwasaboy:
:lol:
Care to expand on that, Grant? :eyebrows:
Marco.
Who’s to say the rest of them weren’t just as bad? :eyebrows:
Joking aside though, just how difficult is it to separate a piece of paper with a ‘Yes’ vote on it from one with a ‘No’ vote - come on!! :doh:
Marco.
Maybe the ballot should be re-run using English scrutineers, if the Scots aren't up to the job.
As long as they’re 100% competent, and not in the pockets of the establishment, I couldn’t care if they came from Timbuktu!!
Marco.
Am I right in suspecting that Marco is beginning to realise that the miscount theory just does not hold water? If so dude, welcome back to reality.
Dave.
:lol:
Care to expand on that, Grant? :eyebrows:
Marco.
Dunno Marco, this is a public forum :whistling: but where I came from we were known as braw lads! Especially the girls:eek:
and the highlight of the year was going to the Melrose sevens.....some years later my dad took me to a football match and he took a haversack full of food! He thought he'd be there all day. Needless to say he was the most popular guy there as he also had a rather large hip flask..
Quality! I do love the Scottish borders (out in the sticks there, especially), as although the landscape is softer than, say, that found in the highlands, it has a charm all of its own.
The area around Jedburgh, Melrose and Kelso is amongst my favourite - simply beautiful countryside :)
Marco.
Am I right in suspecting that Marco is beginning to realise that the miscount theory just does not hold water? If so dude, welcome back to reality.
Dave.
Not at all. It’s simply that there’s not much point in discussing the issue any further now until we see what impact the petition has (if any).
Marco.
Marco, the whole point of my involvement in this thread is that there has never been any point in discussing it further.
Like I said earlier, in 6 months time you'll have forgotten about this and moved on to something more important - hope so, anyway.
Dave.
That’s your opinion, Dave. Mine is different.
Even if voting fraud hasn’t taken place during this particular referendum, that doesn’t hide the fact that there is significant corruption (biased very much in favour of the interests of the English establishment) in our current Westminster-based government (and I abhor that with a passion), so I will always fight against such injustice, and for Scottish independence, because Scotland, quite simply, is not getting out of this ‘union' what rightly belongs to it.
In six months time, I may well have forgotten about recent events, but the issue of Scottish independence will NEVER go away; the desire amongst many thousands of Scottish people for it to happen is simply destined to grow, and so I firmly believe that will one day their dream will be realised.
Marco.
Marco, the whole point of my involvement in this thread is that there has never been any point in discussing it further.
Like I said earlier, in 6 months time you'll have forgotten about this and moved on to something more important - hope so, anyway.
Dave.
Almost anything discussed on AoS will be forgotten about in 6 months' time. The implications of the independence vote are far-reaching, however, and it will be interesting to see how these play out over the next few months/years, especially as a UK general election is only 6 months away!
Almost anything discussed on AoS will be forgotten about in 6 months' time.
Give it a rest, Joe. That remark is uncalled for.
Marco.
Give it a rest, Joe. That remark is uncalled for.
Marco.
Eh? Most AoS discussions, as with most discussions on any forum, are ephemeral. People get all het up about something (cables, turntable mods, football) then it all calms down again until the next 'hot topic' emerges. The difference with the independence referendum is that it will have long-term implications, is all I was saying.
Ok, fine - the AoS reference just sounded a little derogatory. I fully agree with your other point, though.
Marco.
Ok, fine - the AoS reference just sounded a little derogatory.
Marco.
Certainly wasn't meant that way. The same applies to any medium, really, not just internet forums.
Oldpinkman
22-09-2014, 15:18
That’s your opinion, Dave. Mine is different.
Even if voting fraud hasn’t taken place during this particular referendum, that doesn’t hide the fact that there is significant corruption (biased very much in favour of the interests of the English establishment) in our current Westminster-based government (and I abhor that with a passion), so I will always fight against such injustice, and for Scottish independence, because Scotland, quite simply, is not getting out of this ‘union' what rightly belongs to it.
In six months time, I may well have forgotten about recent events, but the issue of Scottish independence will NEVER go away; the desire amongst many thousands of Scottish people for it to happen is simply destined to grow, and so I firmly believe that will one day their dream will be realised.
Marco.
Its not their dream Marco - its yours. I think that was my point in my earlier post about presuming to tell the Scots what to do. Your presumption is that they ought to have voted for independence - the ninnies . The real Scots. the ones who live there and have to face the consequences, chose of their own free will not to leave the Union. I repeat - if I had been given the choice I would have voted for their independence - but that is from an English perspective. I very well understand why Scots, living in Scotland, DO NOT WANT independence. (They also happen to want a royal family - Alex Salmond was quite specific that he wanted to keep the current Queen as Queen of Scotland - and I think the majority of Scots are keen on the idea. So I don't think those you seek to represent share your views on royalty either)
It's reminiscent of Ronald Regan's trip to Ireland and his discovered Irish roots. A lovely romantic ideal - but significantly remote from the people he thinks he claims kinship with. I think the romantic exiles should show a bit more respect for the opinions of the native Scots living in the country, and wanting to continue doing so in peace and prosperity. The Scots had some good reasons to vote NO
1) They would not have been able to join the EU. This is not some wicked English consipiracy to intimidate the Scots into staying. The Belgians and Spanish were quite clear they would veto a Scottish application for EU accession. The EU works on a blackball basis. One veto and forget it. That's why Turkey can't get in - Greece. The Spaniards have a significant Catalan independence movement to deal with (the Basques are not the issue - there are more Basques and more Basque territory in France than Spain). So the Spanish would veto a Scots entry as a signal to the Catalans that they too would be excluded from the EU. (Belgium - where do we start? A modern artificial nation created to keep the Dutch away from the French, but only in fact combining them together to hate each other from separate halves of the same country. A veto for Scotland for the same reason as Spain. And it only needs ONE veto)
2) They would not be able to use Sterling. This is not because of the bad wicked English in Westminster (Threadneedle Street) barring them - although they probably would. Its because it wouldn't be in their interest. Its never in anyones interest to have their currency run by someone else. This is the problem the Euro faces. Nowhere else in the world is monetary policy (choosing interest rates) independant from fiscal policy (setting taxes and regional government expenditure). So the problem is Greece needs interest rates of minus 4% whilst Germany needs rates of plus 4% - but they can only have one rate. We get the same problem in the UK, and the USA, the northeast has a different economy from London - but the situation can be mitigated by a fiscal transfer from the high growth areas to the low growth ones. The EU doesn't have that facility. That's why Greece and Spain have 25% plus unemployment whilst Germany has full employment (nearly). The EU plans to solve the problem by policitical and fiscal integration - closer union!!! How is Scotland going to keep the currency if that requires integration and union, not disintegration and devolution? It won't.
3) No inward investment due to no EU membership and a weak currency not tied to any significant trading partner. Never mind no inward investment - almost certain emigration. The likes of Scottish Widows are a Scottish brand, scottish employment and jobs, and an English customer base - on the basis that their finances are part of the same country. Many such businesses would have relocated to England, not out of pique but out of necessity for survival. Scottish Widows would stand as much chance of depending on a business in a foreign England as it gets from a foreign France or Italy - NONE
4) NATO membership. Most minor North Sea states are seeking to join NATO, and presumably Scotland would also want to ensure its security. I don't fancy their chances of saying "We'd like you to protect us, but don't go leaving any beastly military stuff on our shore - well, maybe a few spears and bows and arrows, but nothing useful"
However - the detail is not important. The key issue is that Scottish people who live there made their choice, and are probably a tad offended to be told the poor wee mites didnae ken their own right minds, and got the vote wrong, by an exile.
There - that's got that off my chest :cool:
Good post that, Pinky. I'm afraid Marco is far too much the romatic Scottish idealist to take any of that on board, though. As are the rest of them who voted 'Yes'.
awkwardbydesign
22-09-2014, 15:57
BTW, as Scottish independence would affect all of us, why was the rest of the UK not allowed to vote? Once Scotland IS independent, if it ever happens, THEN they can vote on their own, but until then we should all be allowed our say. (As it happens, I may well have voted yes!) This is a corollary of the West Lothian question.
And Marco, you say you are not anti-English, but even your original post tends to disprove this. I have no problem with you promoting a petition, but the way you went about it got the backs up of a lot of people here, me included. I think you put off more people than you needed to.
Well, Richard, I can assure you that I’m not anti-English, however I apologise if you perceived it that way. What I am very much anti, is anti-establishment and anti-corruption, both which are our REAL enemies when it comes to politics and politicians.
I am also very much anti-injustice...
Marco.
Some of what I saw has convinced me that voting is pointless. I have not heard a reasonable explanation for what was going on, so I think I will be desisting in future. If I was younger, I'd emigrate.
Some of what I saw has convinced me that voting is pointless….
Interesting. Care to expand on that, Grant?
Marco.
Some of what I saw has convinced me that voting is pointless. I have not heard a reasonable explanation for what was going on, so I think I will be desisting in future. If I was younger, I'd emigrate.
To Zimbabwe?
To Zimbabwe?
Why pick one of the most unlikely destinations? ...If I had my choice I'd go to N Zealand or Canada.....but I don't now so Scotland it is. I also like the way France handles its affairs:eyebrows:
Interesting. Care to expand on that, Grant?
Marco.
Well, especially the laying of yes and no votes in piles then lifting yes votes and stashing them under no's was pretty obvious. I have tried to think of an innocent reason for the actions but...............
Well, especially the laying of yes and no votes in piles then lifting yes votes and stashing them under no's was pretty obvious. I have tried to think of an innocent reason for the actions but...............
Scottish illiteracy?
Why pick one of the most unlikely destinations?
So you can properly research rigged elections!
Apparently some are saying that the ballot papers the woman seemed confused about, in terms of which pile they should've been placed in, were spoiled in some way so as to make them unclear if they had been marked as ‘Yes’ or ‘No’.
Personally, I don’t buy that pish. Do you?
Also, as I’ve said before, the woman concerned should be relatively easy to identify, so why can’t she simply be asked exactly what she was doing? That also applies to the rather shifty looking bloke, apparently filling out some ballot papers.
Get the fuckers interviewed, and let’s find out exactly what they were doing!
Marco.
Scottish illiteracy?
Yes, they should’ve been marked as ‘Aye’ and ‘Naw’.
Marco.
Apparently some are saying that the ballot papers the woman seemed confused about, in terms of which pile they should've been placed in, were spoiled in some way so as to make them unclear if they had been marked as ‘Yes’ or ‘No’.
Personally, I don’t buy that pish. Do you?
Yeah, deffo. Probably the work of some pissed-up 16 year olds. The idea of giving them the vote beggars belief. I wouldn't trust my 16 year old self to put an X in the correct place on a ballot paper, and I was quite a bright lad.
Indeed, and it’s zoomers like that who are the future of our nation! Anyway, apparently it was all the old gits who scuppered the ‘Yes’ vote, as the majority of over-55s (especially OAPs) voted ‘No’.
IME, older folks quite often dislike change…..
Marco.
As for Scottish literacy I'd say the record is on our side there. as for rigged elections,and other countries...i'd say make sure your own house is in order before casting that stone too far.
It seems that anyone who says anything against the staus quo is just going to be attacked here so I'll leave it there, but I am a little disappointed in such behaviour. Have either of you ever thought of a career in the church?:D
Why pick one of the most unlikely destinations? ...If I had my choice I'd go to N Zealand or Canada.....but I don't now so Scotland it is. I also like the way France handles its affairs:eyebrows:
Especially affairs by its head of state. As regards NZ there is almost no corruption here, or rather corruption is kept in check by incompetence. Only a year or so ago a Minister of the crown was forced to resign his portfolio because he put his offer of nepotism on ministerial letter-head! Why the dunderhead could not not have got a junior to make the offer verbally is beyond me.
Light Dependant Resistor
22-09-2014, 23:36
and gathering further momentum for a recount here:
www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/22/scottish-referendum-vote-rigging-claims-recount-petitions
Interesting that 79% of 16 to 18 yo voted yes whilst 52% of 18 to 25 yo voted no.
Oldpinkman
23-09-2014, 05:36
and gathering further momentum for a recount here:
www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/22/scottish-referendum-vote-rigging-claims-recount-petitions
Can any of you guys read past the headline, or do more than 6words baffle you? Paraphrased the article says several nutters got overexcited about dubious Internet footage, and a few more no-hopers refused to believe anyone might really vote differently from them, but a reasoned and researched explanation for both videos was provided by the counting officer, accepted by the author of the article, and the official "yes" campaign and snp accepted that the count was fair too.
So that headline should read "nutters protest vote count but are proved wrong and vote is accepted as legitimate by the yes campaigners"
Never let the truth get in the way of a good story eh? Especially if you can't always have your own way. :doh:
jandl100
23-09-2014, 06:15
Interesting that 79% of 16 to 18 yo voted yes whilst 52% of 18 to 25 yo voted no.
Bit of a downer for the Yes campaign - most teenagers have the common sense of a stunned mackerel! :eyebrows:
Indeed, and it’s zoomers like that who are the future of our nation! Anyway, apparently it was all the old gits who scuppered the ‘Yes’ vote, as the majority of over-55s (especially OAPs) voted ‘No’.
IME, older folks quite often dislike change…..
Marco.
which is their perogative
Indeed, and it’s zoomers like that who are the future of our nation! Anyway, apparently it was all the old gits who scuppered the ‘Yes’ vote, as the majority of over-55s (especially OAPs) voted ‘No’.
IME, older folks quite often dislike change…..
Marco.
…. and young people are far too stupid to understand complex issues. And, unless they are William Hague, they (quite rightly) have no time for politics, as they're too busy with hormonal matters,
but a reasoned and researched explanation for both videos was provided by the counting officer, accepted by the author of the article
So what exactly is the “reasoned and researched explanation”, "accepted by the author of the article, and the official "yes" campaign and snp accepted that the count was fair too.”?
Has it gone public? I’ve not heard a thing about it.
Marco.
which is their perogative
Indeed, but one could argue that it’s a rather selfish and narrow-minded outlook, given that the benefits/repercussions of Scottish Independence would’ve impacted rather more on the younger generation than on theirs, which was precisely why teenagers were given a vote in the first place.
Marco.
everyone votes for their own reasons and all are selfish, that's the way it goes. who's to say a youngsters vote isn't selfish if it negatively affect an old person or vice versa?
So what exactly is the “reasoned and researched explanation”, "accepted by the author of the article, and the official "yes" campaign and snp accepted that the count was fair too.”?
Has it gone public? I’ve not heard a thing about it.
Marco.
From the Guardian article:
'All of the apparently suspicious evidence could be easily explained, said a spokeswoman, pointing out that the yes campaign itself had intervened on Twitter on Thursday night to reassure voters that there was nothing awry with the Dundee footage.
At times, uncounted ballots would be placed on tables that had yes or no signs attached before being sorted, she said. And piles that didn’t reach round numbers of 50 or 100 would be wrapped in a piece of paper on which the total number of votes would be written, explaining the Edinburgh footage.
In a statement, the chief counting officer, Mary Pitcaithly, said she was “satisfied that all counts throughout Scotland were properly conducted and scrutinised by thousands of people representing both the Yes Scotland and the Better Together campaigns, as well as international election observers, media and police. None of these people raised any concerns during the verification, counting and adjudication stages.”
Salmond may have claimed over the weekend that no voters were “gulled” and “tricked” into rejecting independence, but a spokesman said that neither he nor the SNP believed there was anything untoward about the count itself.'
It seems that anyone who says anything against the staus quo is just going to be attacked…
Indeed. I find it all somewhat worrying and also rather telling... Well, challenge the status quo/fight the system is something I will do until the day I die, especially when I consider that the cause is worth fighting for, and even more so, when I think that injustice has been done!
So attack away, as I, for one, won't be shut up.
Marco.
At times, uncounted ballots would be placed on tables that had yes or no signs attached before being sorted, she said. And piles that didn’t reach round numbers of 50 or 100 would be wrapped in a piece of paper on which the total number of votes would be written, explaining the Edinburgh footage.
In a statement, the chief counting officer, Mary Pitcaithly, said she was “satisfied that all counts throughout Scotland were properly conducted and scrutinised by thousands of people representing both the Yes Scotland and the Better Together campaigns, as well as international election observers, media and police. None of these people raised any concerns during the verification, counting and adjudication stages.”
Yeah, they would say that, wouldn’t they, especially if they were all ‘in it’ together? How can you trust the word of people who were part of the voting process, and thus could in turn be part of any government corruption? The above is as much NOT proof that there wasn’t fraud, as the videos showed that there was!
What I want to see is a full investigation into the matter by an unbiased outside agency, with no government connections. If or when that’s carried out, and they’re satisfied that no fraud has been committed, then I’ll accept the findings and move on, but I’m afraid that at the moment the stench of corruption still lingers on and won’t go away until genuine (unbiased) proof is produced….
Marco.
Oldpinkman
23-09-2014, 09:05
So what exactly is the “reasoned and researched explanation”, "accepted by the author of the article, and the official "yes" campaign and snp accepted that the count was fair too.”?
Has it gone public? I’ve not heard a thing about it.
Marco.
What Joe said. Quoting from that notoriously pro-Westminster establishment journal the Guardian ;)
Oldpinkman
23-09-2014, 09:08
Yeah, they would say that, wouldn’t they, especially if they were all ‘in it’ together? How can you trust the word of people who were part of the voting process, and thus could in turn be part of any government corruption? The above is as much NOT proof that there wasn’t fraud, as the videos showed that there was!
What I want to see is a full investigation into the matter by an unbiased outside agency, with no government connections. If or when that’s carried out, and they’re satisfied that no fraud has been committed, then I’ll accept the findings and move on, but I’m afraid that at the moment the stench of corruption still lingers on and won’t go away until genuine (unbiased) proof is produced….
Marco.
Marco - the "they" who were all in it together were the SNP and Yes campaigners. Are you seriously suggesting that the Yes campaign was involved in a conspiracy with Westminster???
"but a spokesman said that neither he (Salmond) nor the SNP believed there was anything untoward about the count itself."
Was the whole "Yes" campaign a fix by fifth columnists. Just because your paranoid... ;)
Nope, that’s not what I’m saying. What I'm saying is that I will only believe evidence produced against fraud if I hear it myself, directly from the horse’s mouth, as it were. And that means it being properly featured in the news (not BBC), where I can witness it myself, not when the matter is simply reported second-hand by those who could well be part of any corruption.
I simply don’t believe a word any of that lot say!
Marco.
Oldpinkman
23-09-2014, 09:28
Nope, that’s not what I’m saying. What I'm saying is that I will only believe evidence produced against fraud if I hear it myself, directly from the horse’s mouth, as it were. And that means it being properly featured in the news (not BBC), where I can witness it myself, not when the matter is simply reported second-hand by those who could well be part of any corruption.
I simply don’t believe a word any of that lot say!
Marco.
Which horses mouth Marco? Do you want each and every elector to come to you personally to tell you what they vote, and for you to count it all up. The "system" was the same one always used. LOCAL people counted according to procedures and supervision, which included duly appointed representatives of both camps being physically present to witness the process.
The duly appointed representatives of the YES campaign, who were personally there when the count took place, are satisfied that the count was carried out properly, and their primary representative Alex Salmond confirmed on behalf of all of them in the YES campaign, that based on their own eye witness scrutiny they were satisfied that the count was carried out properly and he was duly also satisfied that there was no error in the count
What exactly are you hoping for? I don't like to disappoint a fella ( hoped for a "yes" vote myself), but I fear you'll be whistling in the wind mate :rolleyes:
Nope, that’s not what I’m saying. What I saying is that I will only believe evidence produced against fraud if I hear it myself, directly from the horse’s mouth, as it were. And that means it being properly featured in the news (not BBC), where it can witness it, not when the matter is simply reported second-hand by those who could well be part of any corruption.
Marco, for starters why do those who believe in "No" get classified as being in favour the status quo/system? There are many who believe is fighting for change from within the system....this does not equate to being accepting of the status quo.
Your need for proof of the counting process to satisfy you personal requirements is difficult. We have to take what other people tell us as true and as the SNP have no gripes about the counting process you're on a hiding to nothing. You can dream about your crusade on the counting process, all you could ever change would be that journalists and others would be banned from taking cameras into the counting rooms in future.
Gordon Steadman
23-09-2014, 09:31
If you look really carefully, you can see that shifty looking bloke filling in voting slips is putting a cross in the yes box. :doh:
Hi Clive,
Marco, for starters why do those who believe in "No" get classified as being in favour the status quo/system? There are many who believe is fighting for change from within the system....this does not equate to being accepting of the status quo.
Sure, I accept that. Equally, however, as Grant has pointed out, those here who dare challenge the status quo and highlight potential fraud/corruption are being attacked for simply standing up for what they believe in. What exactly is the problem??
Why are English people reacting so aggressively towards the Scots and taking umbrage simply for standing up for themselves, by signing a petition over something they obviously feel very strongly about? That’s why we live in a FREE country, so we can protest against that which we consider is wrong!
What difference does their actions make to them - are the English scared that there could be something in it, and worried about the possible repercussions of fraud being proven? Well, if that’s the case, too bad. You don’t get anywhere in life by burying your head in the sand and hoping all the nasty things go away. If corruption genuinely exists, then it should be EXPOSED and DEALT WITH.
Your need for proof of the counting process to satisfy you personal requirements is difficult. We have to take what other people tell us as true…
Lol - you mean automatically believe politicians and the government? Yeah, that’ll be right! I’ll believe what they say is true when I’m convinced that there’s enough evidence to prove they’re not lying. Simples!
You can dream about your crusade on the counting process, all you could ever change would be that journalists and others would be banned from taking cameras into the counting rooms in future.
Any why is that - what exactly have they got to hide?
In future, I would like an outside body, with no affiliation whatsoever towards the government/establishment, appointed to supervise the vote counting process and ensure that 100% competence is achieved, as well as 100% honesty, and a report produced at the end of the process to that effect. *Then* we can all believe that the results of any referendum are genuine.
Quite simply, if everything was genuinely all above board, then no-one would object to what I’m suggesting.
Marco.
Which horses mouth Marco?
See my reply to Clive.
“Whistling in the wind” I may be, but ensuring that the voting process in future is as open to scrutiny as possible, is the only way in turn of ensuring that potential fraud is minimised.
I don’t believe that government corruption will ever be eradicated, but we can do something to make the voting process in future, during referendums (as you can bet your boots that there will be more, and perhaps not only Scottish ones), more open and accountable to the public - you should like that last bit! ;)
Marco.
I really don't know the details but all such elections overseen by an international electoral commission? I haven't clue about their level of scrutiny.
I really don't know the details but all such elections overseen by an international electoral commission?
Why not, if they could do it?
Basically, we need an independent body involved that a) has the competence to carry out such a task efficiently, b) has no political agenda or affiliation with the government, and c) that has sufficient credibility for the outcome of its investigation to be considered by all as irrefutable and conclusive.
Marco.
How would you suggest the election should be held to make a believable result?
I believe there is corruption at very high levels going on.
However i do not believe it has happened in this case,and if it did the powers that be would not be using kids to do there work.
Why not, if they could do it?
Basically, we need an independent body involved that a) has the competence to carry out such a task efficiently, b) has no political agenda or affiliation with the government, and c) that has sufficient credibility for the outcome of its investigation to be considered by all as irrefutable and conclusive.
Marco.
Excuse my typo in my previous post with made it obscure. My point is that I thought there was some independent scrutiny already for all major elections and presumably this one.
How would you suggest the election should be held to make a believable result?
By appointing an independent body, as I’ve outlined, to supervise the voting process.
What happens in the lead up to an election isn’t the big problem; it’s what goes on afterwards, when the real deal takes place, and votes are counted. It’s purely that process that needs to be made more open and accountable to the public who voted, in order that they can have more confidence that the result is genuine.
I believe there is corruption at very high levels going on.
So do I, so we should be doing something about it, rather than shrugging our shoulders, meekly accepting it, and pretending that it doesn’t exist!!
Marco.
Gordon Steadman
23-09-2014, 10:25
So were the SNP not involved?
Here's some info on the "The independent elections watchdog and regulator of party and election finance"
http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/scotland
My point is that I thought there was some independent scrutiny already for all major elections and presumably this one.
I don’t know. Was the recent Scottish referendum overseen by an international electoral commission? And who or what is that/are they exactly, in terms of them being totally unbiased and having no political agenda?
Marco.
There are plenty already doing something via social media marco.
The trouble with independent is getting people who are,well independent,eg Leon Brittan investigation
Oldpinkman
23-09-2014, 10:38
See my reply to Clive.
“Whistling in the wind” I may be, but ensuring that the voting process in future is as open to scrutiny as possible, is the only way in turn of ensuring that potential fraud is minimised.
I don’t believe that government corruption will ever be eradicated, but we can do something to make the voting process in future, during referendums (as you can bet your boots that there will be more, and perhaps not only Scottish ones), more open and accountable to the public - you should like that last bit! ;)
Marco.
But Marco - IT IS OPEN TO SCRUTINY. That is the process. All of the counts were scrutinised by people independent of the count and independent of the government. Those independent scrutineers included IN EVERY VOTING STATION scrutineers from the YES campaign. The only independent scrutineers to suggest anything wrong with the count were from the Kremlin, and its just possible they had a wee ulterior motive relating to throwing smoke in the eyes about activities in Ukraine
Although the overall control of the count was the responsibility of a SCOTTISH counting representative, the whole process was supervised by an INDEPENDENT electoral commission - the same independent commission, independent not just of government but of both parties, and responsible for supervising elections in those parties
The process already is open to scrutiny -so you have achieved your goal and eliminated (non-existant) government corruption :clap:
"Thank you Scotland for 1.6 million votes for Scottish independence. Our friends in the Highlands of Scotland are still to speak, so the final results aren’t in but we know that there is going to be a majority for the No campaign.
It’s important to say that our referendum was an agreed and consented process and Scotland has by majority decided not at this stage to become an independent country. I accept that verdict of the people and I call on all of Scotland to follow suit in accepting the democratic verdict of the people of Scotland." (Alex Salmond - Scotlands first minister) https://www.scotreferendum.com/2014/09/first-minister-on-referendum-outcome/
There are plenty already doing something via social media marco.
…which is why, in a similar way, I’m taking a stance here against it. Believe me, what’s written on this forum is read by LOTS of people! ;)
If I can make some of them stop and think, question matters that perhaps they hadn’t considered before, and that influences what they think about the voting process, and how they behave in future, then my ‘ranting’ here will have been worthwhile.
Marco.
Gordon Steadman
23-09-2014, 10:39
I was just reading a thread on the woodturning website I inhabit from time to time and there was a thread about trusting others to do stuff you could do better yourself for what ever reason.
However, the following comment came up:
A Finnish study of more than 600 older people found that those with the highest levels of cynical distrust--who believed that "most people would lie to get ahead" or that it's "safer to trust no one" -- were likely to develop dementia at more than three times the rate of those with low levels of distrust. The link held up even after the researchers controlled for other risk factors like age and poor health.
Beware, you are doomed....doomed:lol:
Although the overall control of the count was the responsibility of a SCOTTISH counting representative, the whole process was supervised by an INDEPENDENT electoral commission - the same independent commission, independent not just of government but of both parties, and responsible for supervising elections in those parties
The process already is open to scrutiny -so you have achieved your goal and eliminated (non-existant) government corruption :clap:
Lol… Well, in order to prevent a never-ending circular argument (as I’ve got other things to do today), we’ll simply have to agree to disagree about the veracity of that scrutiny.
The fight of the Scottish people, for democratic fairness and equality, shall go on!
Marco.
Oldpinkman
23-09-2014, 10:45
Do you realise, that to change the result, 191469 ballot papers would have needed to be counted as "NO" when they were actually "YES"?
Everyone of them under the scrutiny of representatives of the "YES" campaign
I was just reading a thread on the woodturning website I inhabit from time to time and there was a thread about trusting others to do stuff you could do better yourself for what ever reason.
However, the following comment came up:
A Finnish study of more than 600 older people found that those with the highest levels of cynical distrust--who believed that "most people would lie to get ahead" or that it's "safer to trust no one" -- were likely to develop dementia at more than three times the rate of those with low levels of distrust. The link held up even after the researchers controlled for other risk factors like age and poor health.
Beware, you are doomed....doomed:lol:
Ha - well, daftee, you’re living proof of that evidence! :D
Marco.
Do you realise, that to change the result, 191469 ballot papers would have needed to be counted as "NO" when they were actually "YES"?
Everyone of them under the scrutiny of representatives of the "YES" campaign
Just set off a few fire alarms, and then let the police ‘sort it out’!!
;)
Marco.
The police are the last people you want for a fair count.:)
Gordon Steadman
23-09-2014, 10:52
Ha - well, daftee, you’re living proof of that evidence! :D
Marco.
Not me guv, I believe every word anybody has said - ever:)
That’s precisely the point I’m making, Stu!
Create a diversion, ensure that the room has been cleared of everyone, and well, let the shenanigans begin…. Do I need to spell it out?
The totally non-corrupt police ‘looking after’ the ballot papers, in the meantime whilst everyone else is attending a fire drill, wouldn’t do anything naughty, surely…………….?
Marco.
MI5 are interested in those fermenting "trouble" for the establishment.
MI5 are interested in those fermenting "trouble" for the establishment.
We don't often agree Alan but you're not wrong in this instance.
MI5 are interested in those fermenting "trouble" for the establishment.
Hahaha… I’m sure that I’ll be seen as a major threat!
So you agree that there is an ‘establishment’ and that they are behind government corruption?
Marco.
Hahaha… I’m sure that I’ll be seen as a major threat!
So you agree that there is an ‘establishment’ and that they are behind government corruption?
Marco.
It's not that you can expect the heavies to pound through the front door and take you away with a hood over your head unless you do something really fricking stupid, it will be far more subtle than that. Strange occurrences of emails going astray or being disproportionately delayed, odd clicks on the phone line, that sort of thing.
Ooooh, I’m scared! :rolleyes:
You are one paranoid puppy, muchacho…..
Does that explain why folk here are frightened of challenging the system, and why I’ve received such backlash for doing so? If so, that’s rather pathetic.
Marco.
Ooooh, I’m scared! :rolleyes:
Does that explain why folk here are scared to challenge the system, and why I’ve received such backlash for daring to do so? If so, that’s rather pathetic.
Marco.
No, there's nothing pathetic from my side, it's because you're wrong!
Hehehehe… Well, I think you’re wrong (or perhaps you *really* don’t want me to be right), so where do we go from here? Fancy a beer? :barrel:
Marco.
Ooooh, I’m scared! :rolleyes:
Does that explain why folk here are scared to challenge the system, and why I’ve received such backlash for daring to do so? If so, that’s rather pathetic.
Marco.
I'm not trying to scare you but I do have some experience of this sort of thing. Because of the reasonably high profile AoS enjoys on the web we are 'visible', not that that is a barrier to the systems in place. Computers at GCHQ and at other locations around the world are constantly vigilant. They scan every communication on the net for certain keywords and phrases and these are flagged. There are several layers of systems which exist to handle this data before a human will get involved, but involved they will get if multiple flags accrue for one user or location. The threat level is assessed and if deemed sufficient the case is passed upstairs to determine the level of action required, if any. This action could be as minor as a data and voice communication interception order right up to a full blown operation leading to an arrest. You don't need to worry about the latter ;)
This is the world we live in...
Indeed, and because I know that, that’s what makes me determined to fight against it. What would you rather do, simply bury your head in the sand and pretend that corruption doesn’t exist and meekly accept that we are told by the government and authorities is true?
I’m a firm believer in the saying that ‘the truth will always out’, and talking of which, have a read of this rather damning report, regarding the Scottish referendum, ensuring that you read it ALL the way through...
http://thebutterflyrebellion.org/2014/09/23/the-sabotage-of-scotlands-democracy/
From the link:
Quite unexpectedly it was noticed that those supporting a No vote were openly celebrating and congratulating one another almost as soon as the polls were closed. One person who called a moderator of this page at half past ten in the evening shared his suspicion that “They know something. They know they have this in the bag.” Through the early hours of the morning calls started arriving from election officials who were in a number of counting centres over Scotland claiming that they witnessed deliberate election fraud. This was, of course, merely anecdotal evidence, but it was the same story being repeated from as many as fourteen different officers – three of whom had been campaigning for a No vote. On Friday evening we were put in touch with a counting officer from Kilmarnock in East Ayrshire. She had been campaigning for Yes Scotland and had contacted us in an agitated state. Over the course of a lengthy telephone conversation she recounted what she had witnessed. She was not allowed to ensure the closure of the ballots boxes over which she had responsibility, they were moved and left unattended, eventually being transported in a van without security to the central counting station and she was not permitted to be present at their arrival to verify that these were indeed her boxes. Other election officers had contacted her to inform her of open bribery of caretakers and other security personnel at polling stations.
Over the past few days she has been working with the Butterfly Rebellion to gather witnesses and full statements. Every hour the list of witnesses is growing. It has now been arranged for each of these competent witnesses to meet with a legal team outside of Scotland and the United Kingdom to have all of these reports recorded as sworn statements. All of these statements will be posted first to the Butterfly Rebellion page before being sent to the Scottish government and all other relevant friendly authorities. We have made the decision to by-pass the police at the present time. It is at least plausible that elements within the police force were part of a larger conspiracy.
Truly shocking stuff…. I shall be following this very closely!! No matter how much some folk may want it to, the pungent stench of corruption in this matter isn't going to go away………..
Marco.
This is the world we live in...
You say that like it is a bad thing but the fact is that the purpose of that surveillance is to keep us safe. Those who imagine that they are being scrutinised by the surveillance services because they are 'a danger' to 'The Establishment' are always harmless nut-cases.
You say that like it is a bad thing but the fact is that the purpose of that surveillance is to keep us safe. Those who imagine that they are being scrutinised by the surveillance services because they are 'a danger' to 'The Establishment' are always harmless nut-cases.
I meant nothing of the sort Martin, it is merely a factual statement :)
You say that like it is a bad thing but the fact is that the purpose of that surveillance is to keep us safe. Those who imagine that they are being scrutinised by the surveillance services because they are 'a danger' to 'The Establishment' are always harmless nut-cases.
People such as Gary McKinnon? A 'harmless nutcase' who broke into the US military computer network (because it wasn't properly secured) looking for evidence for the existence of UFO's. He was discovered (eventually) and subsequently arrested. Obviously he is a 'nutter' as he believes in UFO's, in which case why did US prosecutors spend millions of dollars in an attempt to extradite him to the US to stand trial for espionage? All that was needed was a slap on the wrist and an internet banning order, which is in fact what he received once he won his appeal against his extradition. Now the details of this aren't case important here, it merely demonstrates how someone with an interest and a little accrued knowledge to facilitate entry into areas of the net otherwise barred to Joe Public can end up being minced by the gears of the establishment.
Never mind that pish, have you read what’s contained in the link on post 173?
Marco.
Never mind that pish, have you read what’s contained in the link on post 173?
Marco.
Yes I have...
Gary Mckinnon was made an example of. I agree it is not entirley fair but if you play with fire the likelihood is that you will get burnt.
Marco that 'butterfly' thing you linked to is high-ranking bollocks and the bloke who wrote it comes across, to be frank, as a bit of a dick.
And?
Marco.
Gary Mckinnon was made an example of. I agree it is not entirley fair but if you play with fire the likelihood is that you will get burnt.
Marco that 'butterfly' thing you linked to is high-ranking bollocks and the bloke who wrote it comes across, to be frank, as a bit of a dick.
What he said ;)
Gary Mckinnon was made an example of. I agree it is not entirley fair but if you play with fire the likelihood is that you will get burnt.
Which is exactly my point.
Marco, it's not that I don't agree with your basic stance regarding overbearing establishment tactics and the existence of high level corruption, it's your motive which I'm not entirely comfortable with, which is why any comments of this nature from me will appear on Joe's thread ;)
What he said ;)
Well, that’s just the reaction I expected from those who a) are English, and so don’t have Scotland’s best interests at heart, and b) would rather this whole ‘fraud thing’ just went away, for the sake of a quiet life.
Thing is, it’s NOT going to go away:
There are no observes, who have so far spoken out, who accept the validity of the referendum count. It will be difficult to guarantee a sworn statement from these men, but we have been promised another opportunity to speak with them. We will make a special plea to them to have the courage to speak out on the record, and at present we are drafting a letter to the French government seeking full disclosure from them. All of this information will be shared on this page and with the Scottish government. We believe that it is only a matter of time before the fullness of the truth comes out.
…and as soon as it’s shared there, I’ll be sharing the information here, in order that the issue is kept alive. As they say: ‘the truth WILL out’, and I’ll be doing my bit to try and make that happen.
Marco.
...it's your motive which I'm not entirely comfortable with
Which motive is that, then? I have only ONE motive, and that should be blatantly clear: to ensure that *if* fraud has been committed during the recent Scottish referendum, that I do my bit (with my influence here), along with all those signing petitions, etc, to help EXPOSE the fraud, and together, we try and force a re-vote of the referendum.
I note that everyone went quiet earlier when it was suggested that the police might also have been involved in any vote rigging….. Why?
Marco.
I've got to be honest with you guv, as a seasoned UFO researcher I am well used to dealing with any number of crackpot conspiracy theories and for me this one ticks all the boxes. The SNP would have been aware they were likely to lose quite a long while before the referendum itself but they had to carry on regardless. This had nothing to do with establishment corruption and it is an insult to everyone who made an effort to vote to suggest it was. I'm certain there were minor incidents of dishonesty as there are in every election but nothing which will have affected the result to the degree you and others are suggesting.
The best interests of Scotland were to stay with the Union. The arguments why have been made a number of times and frankly anyone of reasonable intelligence could understand them, the principle one being the issue of currency and soverign debt, which is an intractable problem in any independance scenario.
If you are the sort who is easily bored by such things then I grant you it is a lot more fun to paint your face blue and pretend to be Braveheart but don't expect anyone else to take it too seriously.
The best interests of Scotland were to stay with the Union. The arguments why have been made a number of times and frankly anyone of reasonable intelligence could understand them...
Sounds like a slur, Martin. So are you accusing me of a lack of intelligence? If that’s the kind of road you want to go down, then I’ll respond in kind, and you and I are destined for a major fallout….
If you are the sort who is easily bored by such things then I grant you it is a lot more fun to paint your face blue and pretend to be Braveheart but don't expect anyone else to take it too seriously.
If fraud is proven, trust me, I will ram that comment so far up your arse, that you won’t be able to shite for a month!! ;)
Marco.
OI!!! ya daftee, I'm back. Want me to call you on the HOTLINE? :lol:
I note that everyone went quiet earlier when it was suggested that the police might also have been involved in any vote rigging….. Why?
Marco.
Personally, I was out shopping, but the more I read about this conspiracy theory the more laughable it becomes. All conspiracists think 'the police/MI5/the freemasons are involved'. They do the opposite of applying Occam's Razor to an issue; instead of accepting the simplest explanation (a fair vote, closely scrutinised, with possibly a few errors) they favour the idea of a vast conspiracy involving hundreds, if not thousands of people, all of whom were presumably paid to distort the ballot.
Plus, if the outcome was known because of the alleged vote-rigging, how come the No campaign panicked just before the ballot, offering all sorts of concessions? You'd think they'd have sat back, smiling knowingly.
The best interests of Scotland were to stay with the Union. The arguments why have been made a number of times and frankly anyone of reasonable intelligence could understand them, the principle one being the issue of currency and soverign debt, which is an intractable problem in any independance scenario.
If you are the sort who is easily bored by such things then I grant you it is a lot more fun to paint your face blue and pretend to be Braveheart but don't expect anyone else to take it too seriously.
tHA1ufmLZQY
Sounds like a slur, Martin. So are you accusing me of a lack of intelligence? If that’s the kind of road you want to go down, then I’ll respond in kind, and you and I are destined for a major fallout….
If fraud is proven, trust me, I will ram that comment so far up your arse, that you won’t be able to shite for a month!! ;)
Marco.
I meant that there is no excuse for not understanding why independance it is not just a bad idea it is pretty much impossible even if 100% had voted yes because you will never be able to have your own currency so you will never be truly independant
If it turns out that there was some grand fraud then I will make my arse available but I will not be losing any sleep over it ;)
Ok Martin,, but you’ll have to watch how you’re expressing yourself, as that’s twice now recently I’ve had to pull you up on something you’ve said, regarding this matter about Scotland and Scottish people, which has come across as derogatory, so please bear that in mind.
Marco.
I have a reasonably good command of the English language and if I wanted to be derogatory then I would leave absolutely no doubt so if it just seems like I might be being derogatory then it's best to assume that I am not. :)
Sometimes it’s the sentiment one senses behind the words, Martin, rather than simply the words themselves… ;)
Marco.
Sometimes it’s the sentiment one senses behind the words, Martin, rather than simply the words themselves… ;)
Marco.
Always a mistake to try and sense sentiments behind words on a screen. if in doubt, seek clarification. As Macca's a Scouser, I find it hard to believe he'd go in for anything other than calling a spade a fucking shovel.
Oldpinkman
23-09-2014, 15:33
Which motive is that, then? I have only ONE motive, and that should be blatantly clear: to ensure that *if* fraud has been committed during the recent Scottish referendum, that I do my bit (with my influence here), along with all those signing petitions, etc, to help EXPOSE the fraud, and together, we try and force a re-vote of the referendum.
I note that everyone went quiet earlier when it was suggested that the police might also have been involved in any vote rigging….. Why?
Marco.
Because of daftee fatigue. There comes a point where you start to add spurious credibility to a debate just by participating. This particular daftee will snuggle into a corner confident that the campaign will fizzle to nothing in a relatively short time, and that there is no corruption to investigate, which will be the reason no investigation takes place.
And reassured that the choice of the people of Scotland won't be overturned by those who believe they know better, and want to ram their own opinions down the throats of the Scots - in the face of overwhelming acceptance by those really positioned to know what was going on - like the SNP. 1.6million Scots voted Yes, and 1.5 million and a bit at least of them, don't think there was vote rigging enough to join a petition about it. And of the few tens of thousands who signed the petitions, I bet most are amateur conspiracy theorists duped by every internet scam that a teaser cares to post. And a few are called Michael Mouse - a common petition signatory. And very few are Scots entitled to vote on the subject.
Nobodies going to spy on anyone on here - they have better things to do.
Oldpinkman
23-09-2014, 15:36
I've got to be honest with you guv, as a seasoned UFO researcher I am well used to dealing with any number of crackpot conspiracy theories and for me this one ticks all the boxes. The SNP would have been aware they were likely to lose quite a long while before the referendum itself but they had to carry on regardless. This had nothing to do with establishment corruption and it is an insult to everyone who made an effort to vote to suggest it was. I'm certain there were minor incidents of dishonesty as there are in every election but nothing which will have affected the result to the degree you and others are suggesting.
what he said :clap:
Well maybe the sensing is a little over-sensitive?
Anyway you Jocks may think you have had it bad at the hands of the English but my lot are from Ireland on both sides of the family so if we are going to play Top Trumps: Downtrodden Ancestors then I reckon I have the better card. Unless we have any African-Americans or Native Americans here, that is...
Oldpinkman
23-09-2014, 15:38
Sounds like a slur, Martin. So are you accusing me of a lack of intelligence? If that’s the kind of road you want to go down, then I’ll respond in kind, and you and I are destined for a major fallout….
If fraud is proven, trust me, I will ram that comment so far up your arse, that you won’t be able to shite for a month!! ;)
Marco.
If fraud is proven Marco, you can drop my PT off a high bridge. And I'll bring all the fairies at the bottom of my garden to watch it! ;)
Well maybe the sensing is a little over-sensitive?
Anyway you Jocks may think you have had it bad at the hands of the English but my lot are from Ireland on both sides of the family so if we are going to play Top Trumps: Downtrodden Ancestors then I reckon I have the better card. Unless we have any African-Americans or Native Americans here, that is...
I've got both Scottish and Irish blood, so two lots of victims of English oppression. I was taught by (mostly) Irish teachers, and poor old England didn't half get some stick over the potato famine during history lessons.
http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/i...-2014092390921
If fraud is proven Marco, you can drop my PT off a high bridge. And I'll bring all the fairies at the bottom of my garden to watch it! ;)
Don’t worry, I’ll keep you to that! :eyebrows:
Marco
1.6million Scots voted Yes, and 1.5 million and a bit at least of them, don't think there was vote rigging enough to join a petition about it.
Sure, but that could simply be unawareness of the petition’s existence.
That is why I’m highlighting it here, including the YouTube video and links to other information critical of how the votes were counted, in order that the people behind the 2000, or so, daily page-views AoS creates, have the opportunity of reading it, and also how discussions here impact on Internet search engines, thus bringing this discussion and everything else written here to the attention of countless others………....
I’d bet that more than a few of the 1.6 million Scots you’re referring to would sign the petition if they had all seen that video and read some of the stuff I have (and that’s been featured here), which convinces me that genuine fraud has taken place. Aside from anything else, I just have a sick feeling in my gut about it, and when that happens, I’m usually not wrong.
However, I think we’re at the stage now where we should simply ‘agree to disagree’, as nothing you say is going to change my mind, and vice versa, so let’s just save bandwidth and do precisely that :)
Marco.
I have a reasonably good command of the English language and if I wanted to be derogatory then I would leave absolutely no doubt so if it just seems like I might be being derogatory then it's best to assume that I am not. :)
That’s fine, however, when you write these words:
The arguments why have been made a number of times and frankly anyone of reasonable intelligence could understand them...
…the message appears to be pretty clear, which is why you received an adverse reaction. Therefore, in future, I suggest that you use your reasonably good command of the English language to ensure that your point is automatically understood in a debate as kicking the ball, not the man! ;)
Oh, and when you’re writing important stuff, which you don’t wish to be misconstrued, don’t do it on the train, on a mobile phone….
Anyway you Jocks may think you have had it bad at the hands of the English but my lot are from Ireland on both sides of the family so if we are going to play Top Trumps: Downtrodden Ancestors then I reckon I have the better card. Unless we have any African-Americans or Native Americans here, that is…
:lolsign:
Marco.
Meanwhile, more evidence of corruption and ’the establishment’ controlling the agenda: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/phone-hacking/8638614/The-great-Murdoch-conspiracy.html
Marco.
Oldpinkman
23-09-2014, 17:08
However, I think we’re at the stage now where we should simply ‘agree to disagree’, as nothing you say is going to change my mind, and vice versa, so let’s just save bandwidth and do precisely that :)
Marco.
Absolutely right. Hifi is far more important. I'll give my Lowthers a bump - although Arthur asked to borrow them in the pub yesterday . It doesn't get scarier - I need to sell them fast!! :eek:
Nice one - enjoy! Nice time you chat, ask him when he’s bringing out Funk’s bespoke (engineered-from-the-ground-up) bearing for the Technics ;)
Marco.
Btw, in terms of the influence of AoS, note that this thread is already on page 3 of Google (9th down): http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=expose+government+corruption&hl=en-GB&gbv=2&prmd=ivns&ei=ubAhVLW2KcjmPIK0gLAK&start=20&sa=N
My aim is to get it onto page 1 - and keep it there! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Interesting article in The Scotsman:
http://www.scotsman.com/news/uk/yes-landslide-if-westminster-breaks-powers-vow-1-3548368
Dr Matt Qvortrup said that last Thursday’s result - which saw 45 per cent of voters back Scotland’s breakaway from the UK - should serve as a ‘wake-up call to the chattering classes’ in England.
Speaking to The Sun, Dr Qvortrup added: “If David Cameron and Ed Miliband don’t make good on their promises of more powers, we’ll get another referendum. And next time the result would be Yes.”
• Westminster leaders at war over powers
The academic - a top expert on referenda - said that ‘statemanship’ would be required in order to help push through plans for more devolved powers over tax, welfare and spending made by Cameron, Miliband and Nick Clegg in the days leading up to the historic vote.
Details of the new powers are to be decided over the course of the coming months, with Westminster set to offer formal proposals in January.
And Dr Qvortrup issued a stark warning that the UK Government would have to ensure Scotland got an improved deal.
With Conservatives such as London Mayor Boris Johnson and John Redwood set to oppose new powers, Dr Qvortrup added: “The Prime Minister will find it very hard to overcome opposition within his own party.
“Statemanship is needed, But neither Cameron nor Ed Miliband - and still less Nick Clegg - are strong leaders.
“It is questionable if they have the qualities needed to deliver change they promised.”
And he warned that the break-up of the United Kingdom could be ‘on the cards’ if Westminster fail to live up to the pre-referendum pledge.
“If it comes around again, the desire of Scots to sever ties with the Westminster establishment will be even stronger,” Dr Qvortrup explained.
“Time is on the side of those who favour independence and I can’t see the desire change ebbing away.”
Hear, hear!! :clap: :clap:
Marco.
walpurgis
23-09-2014, 19:54
Assuming that many of the 'No' voters were banking on the British government making good on all promises, is it likely that should these promises not be made good, the SNP may claim the vote invalidated?
Don't see how,they break promises every election.
I like your thinking, Geoff!
How about this (purloined from Facebook):
"Just seen interesting post on page Scotland in the blood -
There's a sovereign right stated in 1707 which reads if there is ever any fraud going on we have Immediate independence.
It was written by lord stirling himself on 17/09/14":
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/909/2WEUWk.jpg
:eyebrows:
Marco.
Stratmangler
23-09-2014, 20:24
Is there a thread ignore option on the forum?
I know I can ignore most member's posts, but a thread ignore would be nice.
losenotaminute
23-09-2014, 20:26
Marco, for how long are you are going to continue to insult the memory of my family and millions of others who fought within the Union to retain a democratic system against the jack-boot of the nationalists in Germany, Italy and Japan? Scotland decided No - please show some respect for the democratic process.
If you love Nationalism so much, why don't you move to Russia? You obviously have little (or no) respect for the UK's institutions, so I am really at a loss to understand why you continue to live here. You have lots of money and can speak various languages, surely you would be happier in Russia or North Korea?
Is there a thread ignore option on the forum?
I know I can ignore most member's posts, but a thread ignore would be nice.
Of course there is a thread ignore option - it’s called observing the sign marked: “nothing to see here, move on”.
;)
Marco.
Is there a thread ignore option on the forum?
I know I can ignore most member's posts, but a thread ignore would be nice.
That's a great idea Chris but I can't see it getting past 'Management' ;) - too much invested in it I suspect.
Dave.
My aim is to get it onto page 1 - and keep it there! :eyebrows:
That is a suitable prompt to encourage no more posting on this thread (after this :)) Point made!
It seems to me that if you spend 90% of your life on the Internet and particularly on a small forum which you own, it is easy to become deluded into thinking you are creating influence or even making a difference. Please get real. AOS really is very insignificant in terms of Internet traffic and 2000 visitors a day is a pittance, unlikely to make any impression on a few others out there. Really, if you want to persue your campaign, there are far more relevant places on the web to do this. At the moment, this infatuation you have is rather spoiling the forum which has all the potential to undermine your monarchy, and will cause people to move away. Shame, but there you go. Your continueing aggressive posts show you simply as a keyboard warrior. Those of us who have met you personally recognise that in personal reality, you are a bit of a gentle softy.
http://theartofsound.net/forum/webkit-fake-url://38dee53d-a712-45f3-9113-b048644cb84a/imagepnghttp://theartofsound.net/forum/webkit-fake-url://faa29be3-880e-440f-aed9-6687a08197e8/imagepng
Marco, for how long are you are going to continue to insult the memory of my family and millions of others who fought within the Union to retain a democratic system against the jack-boot of the nationalists in Germany, Italy and Japan? Scotland decided No - please show some respect for the democratic process.
If you love Nationalism so much, why don't you move to Russia? You obviously have little (or no) respect for the UK's institutions, so I am really at a loss to understand why you continue to live here. You have lots of money and can speak various languages, surely you would be happier in Russia or North Korea?
Russia is rather cold, and I suspect that the North Korean cuisine wouldn’t be entirely to my taste ;)
I’ll show some ‘respect’ for the democratic process when it’s fairer and not so blatantly corrupt. I live here (in Wales) because I want to, and I’m entitled to. It’s as simple as that. Respecting the UK’s institutions isn’t a prerequisite for British citizenship. You’ve no idea how intolerantly jingoistic you sound!
Marco.
losenotaminute
23-09-2014, 20:34
That is a suitable prompt to encourage no more posting on this thread (after this :)) Point made!
It seems to me that if you spend 90% of your life on the Internet and particularly on a small forum which you own, it is easy to become deluded into thinking you are creating influence or even making a difference. Please get real. AOS really is very insignificant in terms of Internet traffic and 2000 visitors a day is a pittance, unlikely to make any impression on a few others out there. Really, if you want to persue your campaign, there are far more relevant places on the web to do this. At the moment, this infatuation you have is rather spoiling the forum which has all the potential to undermine your monarchy, and will cause people to move away. Shame, but there you go. Your continueing aggressive posts show you simply as a keyboard warrior. Those of us who have met you personally recognise that in personal reality, you are a bit of a gentle softy.
http://theartofsound.net/forum/webkit-fake-url://38dee53d-a712-45f3-9113-b048644cb84a/imagepng
Good point well made. I will post no more on any of Marco's spam threads and am heading back to TAS for some sanity.
Bye!
That is a suitable prompt to encourage no more posting on this thread (after this :)) Point made!
It seems to me that if you spend 90% of your life on the Internet and particularly on a small forum which you own, it is easy to become deluded into thinking you are creating influence or even making a difference. Please get real. AOS really is very insignificant in terms of Internet traffic and 2000 visitors a day is a pittance, unlikely to make any impression on a few others out there. Really, if you want to persue your campaign, there are far more relevant places on the web to do this. At the moment, this infatuation you have is rather spoiling the forum which has all the potential to undermine your monarchy, and will cause people to move away. Shame, but there you go. Your continueing aggressive posts show you simply as a keyboard warrior. Those of us who have met you personally recognise that in personal reality, you are a bit of a gentle softy.
Ah, it’s all coming out now…. Excellent! I was wondering how long it would take for the *real* Greg to show himself (yet again): the guy who's been banned from here no less than three times for outbursts similar to this, but keeps begging to come back - and I’ve been foolish enough to let you… Well, next time, I won’t be so forgiving, because your presence here always ends the same way.
I’m afraid we’ll have to agree to disagree on a few points you’ve made, old chap. What about the aggressive posts aimed at me? You won’t notice those, however, as your bias against the Scottish viewpoint in this matter and me will automatically filter that out. It’s a free country, so I’m entitled to stand up for what I believe in, and the likes of you won’t stop me, so you should understand that and accept it.
Linky no worky, btw…..
Marco.
C'mon guys, pack it in. It's been said often enough by a wide enough range of members and the paranoia is not waning and might be getting worse. Recognise that on this thread, as most others, that Marco is right ;) . Let him tilt away at windmills and delude himself that he is actually likely to make a difference - he might but it seems unlikely to the rest of us with our feet more firmly on the ground (no matter which side of which boundary those feet are currently resting on).
"Don't feed the troll" might be said as being appropriate.
I am not aiming to get banned, as I believe many other protestors are equally not. This forum is ours, not Marco's, and membership here means more to me than keeping on the right side of Marco. Let him post to himself and let us get on with forum matters - it's served us all well so far I suggest and getting it back on the rails sooner rather than later will minimise the damage it is currently suffering I believe.
Sorry Marco, as you know, I disagree with you strongly on this matter and I have tried to keep it polite and free of 'ad hominem' comments so, according to your ethos it should be welcomed.
ATB,
Dave.
That's absolutely fine, Dave. I'm simply going to update this thread occasionally now with pieces of information I find/receive that highlight my position on the thread topic, and also report on the stage the petition is at, along with any other new information in that area, so I won't be saying too much more here directly on these matters.
Please understand, however, that I always expected to get flack for taking this robust stance against 'the establishment', as about 70% of the forum is populated by English people, who would most likely not agree with my viewpoint, and in that respect I haven't been disappointed...!
However, I have been rather taken aback by the level of disgruntlement and intolerance shown towards my perfectly legitimate opinions, from those who view any challenge of the democratic process or disrespect towards that which is deemed as English, almost as if someone had just insulted their mother! ;)
It certainly gives one a hitherto unknown insight into the mentality held by certain areas of the membership, and for me, that's always useful...
Anyway, onwards and upwards! :)
Marco.
Although I can rightfully claim to have fairly distant Scottish ancestry I regard myself as being English and as such my loyalties lie more with the country of my birth, although as Marco can attest, I have a broad understanding of Scottish culture and a lot of sympathy for the independence movement as a whole. In general terms though, and like many of my fellow countrymen I suspect, I consider the Scottish independence question to be fraught with complicated ramifications for the entire population of the United Kingdom, not only that of Scotland, and I truly believe we are 'Better Together'. As a unit we are certainly stronger and more able to ride out global economic catastrophes such as the depression we've recently experienced.
I truly understand the tangible disappointment felt by those who supported the 'YES' campaign and as a result all we can do is speculate on how an independent Scotland might have developed and whether the exercise would have been a success or not. The point here is that if a YES vote had been carried and had the exercise subsequently failed there would have been no going back, and I believe this was of great concern to many Scots which ultimately influenced their voting decision, and then there was the currency question. Whichever way you cut it the Bank Of England categorically stated that Pound Sterling would not be made available to an independent Scotland to use as a currency despite Mr Salmond's protestations. Without a Plan B, and there wasn't one, it would have left the new Scottish administration scrabbling around for an alternative after several key figures within the EU stated that an independent Scotland would need to apply for EU membership as a new state. thus ruling out the use of the Euro in the short term. This left very little time to develop a home grown option, which would have made big business very nervous indeed.
All in all I think the Scots wisely chose stability over uncertainty on this occasion although this does not preclude them from exploring their independence at a later date. It can only be hoped that any future push for independence is organised a damn site better than this one was otherwise it will probably suffer the same fate, especially if the mooted new devolution powers turn out to be as extensive as Cameron has promised.
However, I have been rather taken aback by the level of disgruntlement and intolerance shown towards my perfectly legitimate opinions, from those who view any challenge of the democratic process or disrespect towards that which is deemed as English, almost as if someone had just insulted their mother! ;)
As the ballot was run in Scotland by Scottish people, I fail to see how challenging it can be seen as 'anti-English'. If anything it's anti-Scottish, as it's based on the premise that thousands of Scots were bribed or coerced into manipulating the result.
Speaking for myself, this just appears to be another bat-shit conspiracy theory, on the same lines as 'the moon landings were faked' and '9/11 was a CIA inside job'. But that's maybe just the influence of my dour Scots Presbyterian genes.
jandl100
24-09-2014, 06:52
All in all I think the Scots wisely chose stability over uncertainty on this occasion although this does not preclude them from exploring their independence at a later date. It can only be hoped that any future push for independence is organised a damn site better than this one was otherwise it will probably suffer the same fate, especially if the mooted new devolution powers turn out to be as extensive as Cameron has promised.
Wow :respect:.
Well said Dave, a great summary.
It seems to me that Salmond's Yes campaign was aimed at the heart rather than the head.
I think it was Ali that posted early on "no pain, no gain" - well, maybe many of those Scots with families to support weren't willing to risk the pain, and I for one don't blame them.
If Scots want independence, fine, but get the crucial details effing well sorted out first, then go for it. It's total madness otherwise, imho.
awkwardbydesign
24-09-2014, 07:49
However, I have been rather taken aback by the level of disgruntlement and intolerance shown towards my perfectly legitimate opinions, from those who view any challenge of the democratic process or disrespect towards that which is deemed as English, almost as if someone had just insulted their mother! ;)
It certainly gives one a hitherto unknown insight into the mentality held by certain areas of the membership, and for me, that's always useful...
Marco.
It isn't your legitimate opinions we don't like, it's the other stuff. Like the underlined line above. Is it just me, or does that sound just a bit sly?
As the ballot was run in Scotland by Scottish people, I fail to see how challenging it can be seen as 'anti-English'. If anything it's anti-Scottish, as it's based on the premise that thousands of Scots were bribed or coerced into manipulating the result.
I guess that’s one way of looking at it!
However, that aside, why was there such disgruntlement and intolerance shown by some towards my perfectly legitimate opinions on this matter? Disagreeing with them is fine, and I have no problem with that, but it was the ‘how dare he say that’ tone of some of the responses, which was ridiculous and OTT, and then I get accused of ‘aggression’? :rolleyes:
Just because you think that the accusation of vote rigging is a “bat-shit conspiracy theory” - an opinion you’re entitled to and I have no objection with - doesn’t entitle you to react aggressively towards someone else who thinks the opposite and is simply keen to stand up for what he believes is right!
If you don’t like/agree with someone else’s opinion, then the correct course of action is to ignore it (and read the many other threads here), or challenge it in a way that isn’t condescending and doesn’t show complete intolerance towards an opposite mindset - least of all stropping off the forum in a huff because some ‘bad man’ has dared to ‘insult your Heritage’ and rather delicate (English) sensibilities! :doh:
I’ve had to put up with people here ‘insulting’ my Scottish ones (and didn’t lose my rag), so as they say, it takes two to tango! Tolerance and respect towards each others views is the key.
Marco.
It isn't your legitimate opinions we don't like, it's the other stuff. Like the underlined line above. Is it just me, or does that sound just a bit sly?
Not at all, it’s simply another way of saying that emotive debates, such as this, really let you know what makes others ‘tick’ (in a way that hi-fi discussions are unlikely to do). That’s a good thing, in my book :)
Marco.
However, that aside, why was there such disgruntlement and intolerance shown by some towards my perfectly legitimate opinions? Disagreeing with them is fine, and I have no problem with that, but it was the ‘how dare he say that’ tone of some of the responses, which was ridiculous and OTT, and then I get accused of ‘aggression’? :rolleyes:
Just because you think that the accusation of vote rigging is a “bat-shit conspiracy theory” - an opinion you’re entitled to and I have no objection with - doesn’t entitle you to react adversely towards someone else who thinks the opposite and is simply keen to stand up for what he believes is right!
Well, it's a bit more complicated than that. Personally, I'm all for compromise and agreeing to disagree, and there are few opinions that I hold so strongly that I would lose my rag if someone challenged them; I'd be more likely to regard such challenges as food for thought. However, where opinions are passionately held, then it can be difficult to remain objective and detached in discussing them. We see this all the time even in audio discussions between objectivists and subjectivists, and between advocates of valves vs advocates of solid state, so it's hardly surprising to see it in discussion of more emotive stuff such as nationalism.
I totally agree, but that’s no excuse for people not trying to keep it in check and be civil. That outburst from Greg earlier, for example, was rude, condescending in the extreme, and totally uncalled for in what should be a civilised debate.
Lawrence’s response to me (see post 214) was a akin to saying: ‘Well, if you don’t like it here, ya [insert racist expletive here], go back to where you came from…" Disgraceful.
Marco.
That's absolutely fine, Dave. I'm simply going to update this thread occasionally now with pieces of information I find/receive that highlight my position on the thread topic, and also report on the stage the petition is at, along with any other new information in that area, In other words keep bleating on about it by repeating the side of the argument that supports your minority view. Leading a horse to water .... springs to mind
Please understand, however, that I always expected to get flack for taking this robust stance against 'the establishment', as about 70% of the forum is populated by English people, who would most likely not agree with my viewpoint, and in that respect I haven't been disappointed...! Marco, that is akin to playing the racist card by suggesting that it is member's 'Englishness' that makes them take their point of view. Speaking personally, and I'm sure on behalf of my 'English' fellow members, that is utter bat shit/ bull shit (take your pick :lol: , our view is based on the sum of the evidence made available to us. If you take a different view to us, and Alex Salmond and the vast majority of his followers, that is your problem.
However, I have been rather taken aback by the level of disgruntlement and intolerance shown towards my perfectly legitimate opinions, from those who view any challenge of the democratic process or disrespect towards that which is deemed as English, almost as if someone had just insulted their mother! ;) As above - racist? - could be taken that way by those predisposed to believe it maybe??
Marco.
Dave.
Dave, I could respond to what you’ve written, and your rather blinkered stance, but we’re now reaching the stage where I simply don’t want to go round in circles arguing with someone who patently (and rather selfishly) isn’t interested in understanding or appreciating anyone else's contrary viewpoint or mindset in this matter.
Regarding what Lawrence wrote, if the racist undertones were unintentional, I accept that, but at best his remarks were grossly jingoistic, and that’s almost as bad!
You would do well taking a leaf out of Dave (Synsei’s) book, as although he doesn’t necessarily agree with my views on this matter, he has the grace to empathise with and appreciate the viewpoint of a significant number of Scottish people, and their right to protest against what they perceive as gross injustice (vote rigging), rather than close-mindedly viewing everything through one’s own personal bias.
In any case, I insist that we simply agree to disagree and move on, as life is too short, lest you want to find yourself again in the same position you were once in before. Enough is enough.
Marco.
P.S Any further prolonging of this argument by you (or indeed anyone else) will be removed without further notice.
Right, I’m off out for a bit, so this thread will be temporarily locked and then reopened when I return.
Marco.
Ok, folks, the thread has now been reopened, but not for an opportunity for anyone to continue earlier (circular) arguments, any evidence of which will be removed without further warning.
It’s been reopened solely for the purpose of those who wish to comment tolerantly and constructively with others about devolution, independence (not just Scottish), and also claimed vote rigging during the recent Scottish referendum.
If no-one wishes to discuss those matters in that manner, then this thread will simply be used for me posting links in reference to the latter and updates regarding the signed petitions.
In terms of the petition, in reference to claimed vote rigging, it now contains 64,231 signatures, and is destined to break through the 75k mark very soon, see here: https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/independent-enquiry-for-scottish-referendum-vote-count
When those are forwarded onto the relevant authorities for consideration, action will have to be taken - the results of which will be very interesting indeed! One thing’s for sure, there is growing unrest amongst a significant and ever-increasing number of Scottish people - and that isn’t going to go away until their concerns are properly addressed.
And now there’s another petition, this time complaining (quite rightly) about BBC bias/governmental influence, in terms of their reporting of the Scottish referendum: https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/independent-enquiry-into-bbc-bias-regards-scottish-independence-referendum which has an amazing 83,314 signatures! :eek:
Let’s see what the outcome of that is. A comment here, typical of the majority of those who’ve signed the petition:
I am an English student in Scotland; seeing how seamlessly the BBC coverage seems to reflect the nothing-but-partial British Government line, I am distressed at a once great institution sinking to such depths to distort, obfuscate and deceive. I am ashamed of them.
And another protestor sums the matter up rather succinctly:
BBC's corporate westminster unionist bias is a threat to scottish democracy and honest journalism.
Lots of shenanigans detailed in this next link, including a lack of proper procedures being followed, and dodgy dealings, some from personal accounts of those involved in the voting process, as well as reports from eye-witnesses present at polling stations, etc, in reference to vote rigging: http://scottishreferedum.blogspot.co.uk/2014/09/polling-day-18th-sept-2014-vote-rigging.html?spref=tw
The BBC said that the oil in the North Sea would run out in 5 years, now 6 days after the referendum vote, they claim that there is plenty of oil there after all...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...-fife-29342142
Scaremongering, in order to ensure that the financial interests of ’the establishment’ were protected? No wonder why so many people, who were subjected to various other threats, as to how their livelihoods would be adversely affected by a ‘Yes’ vote, from a desperate government, seeking to retain the finance from its Scottish ‘cash cow’, voted ‘No’! :rolleyes:
David Cameron says that the Queen ‘purred down the line’, after Scotland ‘No’ vote: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/23/david-cameron-queen-purred-down-line-scotland-no-vote
And this video, what’s all this stuff about Ruth Davidson from the 'Better Together’ (No) campaign admitting to illegally sampling postal votes before the official counting process took place?
DcL69gUtPb0
:hmm:
Marco.
Scottish referendum: Police assess postal vote allegations: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-29359318
And also in The Evening Times: http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/u/police-to-investigate-claims-about-no-camp-access-to-postal-votes.1411648062
It’ll be interesting to see what comes of that :)
Marco.
Oldpinkman
25-09-2014, 16:34
Scottish referendum: Police assess postal vote allegations: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-29359318
And also in The Evening Times: http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/u/police-to-investigate-claims-about-no-camp-access-to-postal-votes.1411648062
It’ll be interesting to see what comes of that :)
Marco.
When you say "what comes of that" - do you mean "a credible call for an investigation into an unfair ballot, resulting in a widely accepted conclusion that the vote was invalid and a decision to repeat it"?
My turntable - any bridge of your choice...;)
When you say "what comes of that" - do you mean "a credible call for an investigation into an unfair ballot, resulting in a widely accepted conclusion that the vote was invalid and a decision to repeat it"?
That would be great, but even I’m not that much of an optimist! :)
In reality, I simply want any wrong-doing (Ruth Davidson’s misdemeanours or similar) to be recognised by the appropriate authorities and dealt with accordingly.
Marco.
Vote-rigging petition is now sitting at 64,441 signatures: https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/independent-enquiry-for-scottish-referendum-vote-count
BBC bias/governmental influence petition is now sitting at: 83,841: https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/independent-enquiry-into-bbc-bias-regards-scottish-independence-referendum
The latter is a rather damning view of nearly 84,000 people of a supposedly politically neutral broadcasting company…………..???
Roll on the signature targets of 75,000 and 100,000 respectively! :hifive: :hifive:
SIGN them BOTH NOW, folks, and show that the Scottish people will not meekly bow down to ‘establishment' bias and injustice!!
Marco.
By all means sign if you believe in the causes. Marco, are you suggesting that not signing is due to being meek? I don't believe you are but to a non-believer in the cause it comes over that way. Maybe it's just the way I read it.
Nope, Clive, not at all. The ‘meek' reference is in terms of those who have signed the petition not being meek, by not bowing down to the establishment, and instead, standing up and fighting for what they think is right!
Take no bullshit from that which tries to control or oppress you. It’s a trait that I think should be admired :)
If you don’t want to sign the petition, that has nothing to do with being meek.
Marco.
Cool. Thanks for the clarification.
No worries, dude! :)
Marco.
I guess that’s one way of looking at it!
However, that aside, why was there such disgruntlement and intolerance shown by some towards my perfectly legitimate opinions on this matter? Disagreeing with them is fine, and I have no problem with that, but it was the ‘how dare he say that’ tone of some of the responses, which was ridiculous and OTT, and then I get accused of ‘aggression’? :rolleyes:
Just because you think that the accusation of vote rigging is a “bat-shit conspiracy theory” - an opinion you’re entitled to and I have no objection with - doesn’t entitle you to react aggressively towards someone else who thinks the opposite and is simply keen to stand up for what he believes is right!
If you don’t like/agree with someone else’s opinion, then the correct course of action is to ignore it (and read the many other threads here), or challenge it in a way that isn’t condescending and doesn’t show complete intolerance towards an opposite mindset - least of all stropping off the forum in a huff because some ‘bad man’ has dared to ‘insult your Heritage’ and rather delicate (English) sensibilities! :doh:
I’ve had to put up with people here ‘insulting’ my Scottish ones (and didn’t lose my rag), so as they say, it takes two to tango! Tolerance and respect towards each others views is the key.
Marco.
Just saying - I do respect your right to hold an opinion. I am definately not requred to respect the opinion you hold, and I don't. I also disagree strongly that if I don't like or agree with your opinion I should ignore it - nobody is required to dignify an erroneous opinion by maintaining their silience, and clearly many others here agree. This quest to expose so-called corruption is totally bogus, and in my view it does you no credit to be associated with it.
Well, Alex, that’s my view (I think it’s very much for real, not bogus), so I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree :)
Marco.
How about re-naming AoS to Expose government corruption NOW!! and relocating it to Hyde Park Corner?
How about re-naming AoS to Expose government corruption NOW!! and relocating it to Hyde Park Corner?
I think you mean 'Speaker's Corner', which is somehow more appropriate anyway ;)
Actually I am sure I have read that they don't allow speakers at Speaker's Corner anymore. Too many suicide bombers or something...
Yes, that is what I meant Martin... :)
Ok, folks, the thread has now been reopened, but not for an opportunity for anyone to continue earlier (circular) arguments, any evidence of which will be removed without further warning.
Time to invoke my earlier warning, me thinks!
Marco.
Especially after just seeing Mr Sampson’s edit on his previous post:
Well, that’s cool, so we’ll just have to agree to disagree :)
I’m Italian first and foremost, as that’s my ethnicity,yet you are cowering in Wales complaining about Scottish corruption, instead of attacking Italian corruption
and Scottish second,Still hiding in Wales as that’s my nationality - and North Wales is my current adopted home.
The rest of the UK I don’t really give a jot about, I really hope the rest of the UK don't give a jot about you. But then, nobody outside of hifi forums will have heard about you.
I certainly don’t consider myself as British. I wouldn’t have a Union Jack flag (or anything with a Union Jack on it) anywhere in my house, and I dislike the royal family and all that it stands for. Then please feel free to fuck off back to Italy or Scotland,
The only thing British about me is my passport.
Marco.
Utterly disgraceful bigoted abuse!
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.