View Full Version : REVIEW: Epiphany Acoustics 'Atratus III' interconnect
Review: Epiphany Acoustics ‘Atratus III’ interconnect cable
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h90/markemark_2006/Hi-Fi/19E839D1-31FB-43EC-BF9F-5CAB809C59F5_zpsaxr43yhg.jpg (http://s62.photobucket.com/user/markemark_2006/media/Hi-Fi/19E839D1-31FB-43EC-BF9F-5CAB809C59F5_zpsaxr43yhg.jpg.html)
Introduction:
It’s over two years (doesn’t time fly) since I wrote about the newly introduced Epiphany Acoustics Atratus interconnect. My findings were that the Atratus was an audio bargain and compared very favourably to cables costing significantly more; as such it took up residence in my system connecting my phonostage to my pre-amp and has remained there ever since. However, the Atratus is no longer the only cable and there have now been two more added to the Epiphany Acoustics interconnect range; the Atratus II and Atratus III. Impressed as I was with the original I was keen to hear what these new offering had to offer and when I heard that they were in development I requested samples. As such I was sent a number of preproduction samples to audition, some with different connector choices and some with alternate wiring configurations. The rest of this review relates to the Atratus III and a separate review will cover the II.
So what do you get?
Well, superficially at least, the Atratus III isn’t wildly different to its predecessor. It’s the same diameter, a reasonably chunky 9mm, but instead of the retro ‘braided kettle lead’ look of the old it is now green and covered in a black open weave sheath with a white thread running through it. The overall look is smart and restrained in my view but then it’s not something you are going to see very much once it’s plugged into the back of your hi-fi. Despite its diameter it is a reasonably flexible cable, but it wouldn’t be my first choice if space is at a premium. The RCA plugs used are the excellent KLEI Harmony plugs* and not just the copper variant, these are the more costly silver! Plugs and cable are neatly joined together with high silver content solder and Epiphany Acoustics branded heat-shrink provides additional cable strain relief where cable and plug meet.
As to the construction of the actual cable, Epiphany Acoustics say this:
“Specified for a low resistance, the design incorporates a dual shield construction – utilising both a copper braid and foil – to protect the internal heavy gauge OCC copper signal conductor from extraneous noise pick up and interference.”
The samples I tried were from early pre-production they didn’t yet have the normal heat-shrink fitted. As a result, I was able to unscrew the barrel of the RCA plugs and have a look at what exactly the cable construction consists of
. Inside there are two twisted conductors and each of these is made out of a number of individually insulated solid copper wires (the insulation is apparently Teflon). These two bundles are soldered to the signal pin. Around that there is a foil braid and then a dense copper braid that forms the return – in all, there is a lot of good quality copper involved!
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h90/markemark_2006/Hi-Fi/EDD97E14-34C9-4C03-9915-DD5F243330E5_zpsxc0exq4t.jpg (http://s62.photobucket.com/user/markemark_2006/media/Hi-Fi/EDD97E14-34C9-4C03-9915-DD5F243330E5_zpsxc0exq4t.jpg.html)
So what does it sound like?
Well the inevitable comparison is against the original Atratus. I still rate the original very highly, it’s dynamic and bold and conveys the musical joie de vivre. To this the III brings an extra level of sophistication and transparency, a remarkable ‘hear into’ the musical event quality and strength of image focus. In comparison the soundstage of the MkI sounds rather flat and upfront, less layered; there’s a subtlety to the rendering of the III that eludes its predecessor. I’ve also had the chance to compare the Atratus III to a number of other well regarded cables, both of similar price and significantly above and the III is simply the best I have heard. The Atratus has the ability of making some sound rather dull and lacklustre whilst others are almost brash and monochromatic. In short, the Atratus III has supplanted the MkI in my system and I’ve now been happily using it for a couple of months. So, how does the III compare to the II I hear you ask? Well, the II is more like the original Atratus in that it is a bit less transparent, polished and refined but carries the rhythm and tempo well. One of the things I was able to try was the III fitted with both the copper and the silver KLEI plugs. The silver option bringing a greater sense of focus and layering to the soundstage and more nuanced shading in the upper mid and lower treble – a relatively subtle improvement but, I think, worthwhile in this context.
Conclusion:
The Atratus III retails for just under £100 for a stereo metre (£89.99 for 0.5 metre and (£119.99 for two metres). At this price I consider it to be the nearest thing to an interconnect bargain one is likely to find, particularly as it includes the finest RCA plugs I know of (on their own these cost two thirds the cost of the entire cable) and is the best cable I have used (though far from being the most expensive). Epiphany Acoustics only sell direct from their website (http://epiphany-acoustics.co.uk), not through retailers, and there is obviously a huge saving in doing so. Obviously ordering something like this mail order means that you are unlikely to be able to audition it first but to give you peace of mind Epiphany Acoustics offer a “14 day no-quibble return policy to allow you to evaluate their performance in your own system”. I’ve been very impressed with this cable and thoroughly recommend it, even if you are using something that is more expensive and, superficially, more exotic I think you will be pleasantly surprised.
* The KLEI Harmony plugs used on this cable deserve special mention I think. I’ve tried many different RCA plugs and have concluded that they make a significant contribution toward a cables performance. The KLEI Harmony plugs are a further development of the Eichmann Bullet plug (designed by the same man, Keith Louis Eichmann) and are my clear favourites, even over some costing very much more! They come in three variants, Copper, Silver and Pure. The ones fitted to the Atratus III are the Silver and use a solid silver ground pin and double silver plated pure copper signal pin. The KLEI plugs have terrific detail, focus and transparency with a very coherent sound and great subtlety of texture. In my opinion these are, quite simply, the best RCA connectors on the market.
Declared interests:
As mentioned earlier, I had the opportunity to audition a number of preproduction versions of this cable. However, I was not paid to do so and I don’t have any connection, financial or otherwise, with Epiphany Acoustics.
Thanks for the review Mark and just to say that sold retail at 'dealer margins,' these cables would be the thick end of £250 inc VAT! I retain mixed feelings on the originals, but your comments on this one seem to indicate I'd love these :)
Well, who knows Dave - I still don't understand your criticism of the original 'falsely organic'? ;)
I'm in the process of writing a review of the Atratus II as well. That cable is more like the original Atratus in both structure and sound (but is a physically thinner cable); The Atratus III is quite different in a number of ways.
jandl100
18-09-2014, 18:09
Just a quickie comment from me for now - Mark and me have been swapping cables just for the fun of it for quite a while now, and recently he sent me a pair of the Atratus III to have a play with.
I had previously demmed and reviewed and bought the original Atratus - I thought that was a bit of a mixed bag sonically - great on some music (rock, dance/dub etc) but way too toppy for me for classical. Enjoyable in its own way, though. It really rocked!
Well, I received Mark's Atratus III, had a listen and ordered two pairs of my own the following day!
They are easily and obviously the most transparent and natural cables I have heard. Stunning.
Mine arrived a few days later (a couple of weeks ago now) and I remain absolutely delighted with them.
At £100 or so a pair (whatever length, give or take a £tenner or two) they have to be a real bargain as well as a great cable :thumbsup:
bronzeage
15-10-2014, 09:16
Hey Chaps
A few questions about these new cables:
1) Do they both maintain the impressive bass of the MK1 ? It's one of the reasons I keep coming back to that cable. Not just the weight, but the ability to hear the texture.
2) How does the MKIII compare in terms of timing?
Cheers
Unfortunately, Mark, your efforts on pfm have been unappreciated by the resident (agenda-driven) cynics, who as usual, are stopping any chance of a meaningful discussion taking place amongst genuine enthusiasts.
Tony is right, pfm would benefit greatly from more equipment/cable reviews of the calibre you’ve produced, but unfortunately it'll always be drowned out by the noise from those who consider that the ‘worthiness' of any audio cables is solely determined by the use of appropriate measurement apparatus, and thus our ears are rendered as redundant... :rolleyes:
Marco.
bronzeage
15-10-2014, 11:06
Marco
Was that reply meant for another thread? It makes no sense to me at least.
Hi Marcus,
Marco isn't reffing to this thread, he is alluding to another forum (pink fish media). When I wrote this review I posted it on the three audio forums I regularly post on, this one (AoS), my own (the AudioFlat forum) and pink fish media (pfm). The review post on pfm immediately attracted an unusually large number of forum trolls and 'sockpuppets'. Initially their aim seemed to be to attempt to discredit me and the validity of the review, recently the angle is that 'cables make no difference and this one is no different' style of argument. The moderators on pfm have already deleted a large number of rude and derogatory posts so the thread looks quite different now to how it used to.
But to address the questions you are asking:
1) Do they both maintain the impressive bass of the MK1 ? It's one of the reasons I keep coming back to that cable. Not just the weight, but the ability to hear the texture.
Yes, I think they do, but in a slightly more subtle manner. I also reviewed the original Atratus when it came out and I understand what you are saying about the bass. Tonal texture, but not just in the bass, is a real strong point of the Atratus III.
2) How does the MKIII compare in terms of timing?
I think, if anything, the timing is better from the III. However, I still have my original Atratus and I will refresh my memory later by directly comparing it to my III again - will post my thoughts once I have compared them.
Is there a distinction between a sock puppet and a regular puppet? In internet terms, I mean, not the world of actual puppetry where the difference is relatively obvious even to a civilian like me.
A sockpuppet is an online identity used for purposes of deception. The term, a reference to the manipulation of a simple hand puppet made from a sock, originally referred to a false identity assumed by a member of an Internet community who spoke to, or about, themselves while pretending to be another person.[1] The term now includes other misleading uses of online identities, such as those created to praise, defend or support a person or organization,[2] or to circumvent a suspension or ban from a website. A significant difference between the use of a pseudonym[3] and the creation of a sockpuppet is that the sockpuppet poses as an independent third-party unaffiliated with the puppeteer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sockpuppet_(Internet)
Unfortunately, Mark, your efforts on pfm have been unappreciated by the resident (agenda-driven) cynics, who as usual, are stopping any chance of a meaningful discussion taking place amongst genuine enthusiasts.
Tony is right, pfm would benefit greatly from more equipment/cable reviews of the calibre you’ve produced, but unfortunately it'll always be drowned out by the noise from those who consider that the ‘worthiness' of any audio cables is solely determined by the use of appropriate measurement apparatus, and thus our ears are rendered as redundant... :rolleyes:
Marco.
Thanks for your support Marco. As you say, a number of individuals have attempted to derail the pfm review thread; or rather, have embarrassed themselves by attempting to discredit it.
Initially, attacks were from individuals who, for unknown reason, sought to attack me personally, claiming I was in the pay of Epiphany Acoustics (100% untrue) and generally attempting to discredit myself and the validity of the review. Most of these individuals usually post on a particular small manufacturers forum (the owner is banned from this forum as are his handful of toadies) - a manufacturer who sells interconnect cables.... draw your own conclusions (he's been banned from pretty much all the forums). More recently the audio objectavist mafia have sunk their teeth into the review. Their stance is that cables all sound the same because GCSE physics tells them they do. A couple of them have borrowed the cable (not from me) and, unsurprisingly, feel that it makes little difference - in other words, their previously formed opinion is confirmed. Somewhat ironically, all the noise they have made has meant that over 10,000 people have read the thread.
The politics of Westminster has nothing on that of the hifi community, I am reminded of the Crabs from Finding Nemo... :rolleyes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3DLxR2fOdM
You have a PM Mark :)
Ha yes, very good :)
PM received and responded to (well, I'm responding to it straight after this).
Floyddroid
15-10-2014, 15:42
it's got me intrigued Marco. I wouldn't mind listening to a pair.
Unfortunately, Mark, your efforts on pfm have been unappreciated by the resident (agenda-driven) cynics, who as usual, are stopping any chance of a meaningful discussion taking place amongst genuine enthusiasts.
Tony is right, pfm would benefit greatly from more equipment/cable reviews of the calibre you’ve produced, but unfortunately it'll always be drowned out by the noise from those who consider that the ‘worthiness' of any audio cables is solely determined by the use of appropriate measurement apparatus, and thus our ears are rendered as redundant... :rolleyes:
Marco.
bronzeage
15-10-2014, 15:52
Thanks for replying Mark.
The Atratus MK1 is one of the few cables where I can easily follow the baseline, and has a really nice puch.
Have comes across other cables that are far more detailed, but the bass loses its punch and becomes almost woofer like, and difficult to follow.
So it would really help me to know that the 'punch' is still there.
I'm just comparing the Mk1 to the 3 now. The Mk1 sounds quite lean in comparison to the 3 which has more weight and breadth - the three is smoother but not duller or recessed. I would say punch is just as good as the 1 but there is greater extension. Instrumental separation is really significantly better as is the texture of voices - much more human sense of inflection. The 1 sounds a bit band limited compared to the 3 I think. I find both bass rhythms and timing easier to follow on the 3 though perhaps the band limiting quality of the 1 helps reinforce timing cues (leading edge attack). Piano definitely has a more Yamaha quality to it through the Mk1 than the 3 and the 1 has a sort of 'edge of the seat' quality to it whilst the 3 is a bit more considered (though weirdly it also manages to make the system seem more intimate and sounds really spring out from the soundstage).
Ultimately, I can only write what I hear, your views may be different and the only way to truly know is to try it yourself (you can always get your money back if you don't like it).
Hi Mark,
Thanks for your support Marco. As you say, a number of individuals have attempted to derail the pfm review thread; or rather, have embarrassed themselves by attempting to discredit it.
Indeed. Those people are a complete waste of time, as their position is simply too deeply entrenched to facilitate any desire to learn from the experiences of others.
I always enjoy reading pfm (indeed it is the only proper audio forum I bother with other than here), and the recent culling of irritants has made it a much friendlier and more interesting place to visit, but there are still a few diehard trolls floating around, posing as members, whose sole interest is to provide themselves with ‘shits & giggles’, rather than adding something positive to the community. I sense that Tony knows this, and is tiring of it fast.
When he eventually comes to the realisation that the asset-to-liability ratio of these, erm, ‘characters' is firmly in a position of deficit, and sends them packing, the forum will further benefit and become more of a place where genuine audio enthusiasts can share their experiences with others who are there for the same constructive reasons, leaving the circular-argument fetishists, pedants and irksome irritants to their own devices.
Their stance is that cables all sound the same because GCSE physics tells them they do. A couple of them have borrowed the cable (not from me) and, unsurprisingly, feel that it makes little difference - in other words, their previously formed opinion is confirmed.
The worst thing Jerry did was lend the cables to that cloth-eared idiot ‘avole’.
Quite simply, when you’ve got such a closed mind as he clearly has, an unhealthy mania with blind testing, together with an entrenched belief system of ‘science currently and irrefutably explains everything in audio’, then he’d have been as well lending the cables to his granny for evaluation than expecting ‘avole’ (‘whatsnext' or ‘Julf') to provide a meaningful [and honest] appraisal of them!
Marco.
jandl100
15-10-2014, 17:13
The worst thing Jerry did was lend the cables to that cloth-eared idiot ‘avole’.
Guilty as charged, m'lud. :doh: :(
As for the twunk interpreting any comment of mine as asking for only positive reviews I do have to wonder what weird and distorted world he lives in. He just seems to make it up as he goes along.
Ah well, onwards and upwards (that's the only direction left to go from that pfm thread :eyebrows:)
The whole episode is extremely bizarre. As you probably know, I've written quite a few reviews/reports of this type before. For example, I wrote a massive review for the Ryan Sound Lab boards for Naim pre-amps - I even wrote it specifically for him to post on his website (after I had bought a set to use myself) - hundreds have read it and I didn't receive one suggestion that I was in the manufacturers pocket in any way. But I write about one £100 interconnect and every loony in audio descends on the thread!
I don't really understand why either of the people who borrowed the cable from Jerry actually bothered to. Certainly one of them had a pre-formed stance that cables make no difference (which he quite regularly states). Did he expect the Atratus to redefine his opinion?
I understand Tony's position and sympathise. Ultimately he wants free speech and light moderation. Personally, I am significantly less liberal about such matters - it's only a hi-fi forum and not the last bastion of freedom. Pretty much everyone on my ignore list has posted on that thread - says it all really. Unfortunately, audio and particularly audio forums seem to attract a special breed of nut - the kind who get their jollies trying to annoy others, worthless point scoring, weird ego tripping or just enjoy jumping up and down shouting 'LOOK AT ME'! Mostly I just ignore them.
Mark,
Have you tried the MC5000 cable in a back to back comparison with these?
I'd be interested to hear your thoughts if you have.
Yes, I've got the Klotz here - made it up myself with the recommended plugs.
I'll have to refresh my specific thoughts by directly comparing it again as I did all this a while ago now.
My thoughts when I tried the Klotz was that it was a very good all rounder - quite full and generous sounding without being dull. I actually thought it was pretty good - ultimately I didn't think it had the same air, delicacy, timbre - will check though.
The whole episode is extremely bizarre. As you probably know, I've written quite a few reviews/reports of this type before. For example, I wrote a massive review for the Ryan Sound Lab boards for Naim pre-amps - I even wrote it specifically for him to post on his website (after I had bought a set to use myself) - hundreds have read it and I didn't receive one suggestion that I was in the manufacturers pocket in any way.
I wouldn’t worry about it, some folk have ‘shilling’ on the brain, due to their eternally suspicious and jaundiced view of the world.
I don't really understand why either of the people who borrowed the cable from Jerry actually bothered to. Certainly one of them had a pre-formed stance that cables make no difference (which he quite regularly states). Did he expect the Atratus to redefine his opinion?
No, he took the opportunity to ‘diss’ the notion of cables making a difference, under the guise of being interested in the Atratus, thus qualifying his opinion (read as agenda), as a result of having listened to them, therefore negating any criticism for not doing so from subjectivists. ‘Playing subjectivists at their own game’, as it were.
I understand Tony's position and sympathise. Ultimately he wants free speech and light moderation.
Ditto, however only in an ideal world are such things possible, and unfortunately hi-fi forums are not an ideal world.
As is often said, sometimes less is more, so you have to ask yourself, what’s more important, ‘free speech’ and a larger forum populated by those who seek to abuse it for their own selfish ends, or a smaller (but still very active) forum, moderated practically and populated by genuine enthusiasts, keen to be a constructive, non-confrontational influence in an on-line community?
The latter is what we’ve achieved with AoS. In my view, it’s better to have realistic goals, and achieve them, than impossible ones, and fail.
Unfortunately, audio and particularly audio forums seem to attract a special breed of nut - the kind who get their jollies trying to annoy others, worthless point scoring, weird ego tripping or just enjoy jumping up and down shouting 'LOOK AT ME'!
Indeed, and I’ve just never understood that mentality, especially the idiots who get their jollies out of trying to annoy others, essentially using someone else’s forum as their own little ‘playground’, for their banal ‘amusement'. You have to wonder what kind of sad, dull lives they lead, if they’re so easily ‘amused' :rolleyes:
Anyway, we’ve had our little rant now, so let’s get back to the subject in hand: cables!
Marco.
The reality is that the Internet allows social misfits to communicate on an equal footing with reasonable people....in case of any doubt I'm not having a dig at Mark, I'm referring to certain tits on pfm, normally I like tits but not the pfm variety!
bronzeage
15-10-2014, 21:24
I'm just comparing the Mk1 to the 3 now. The Mk1 sounds quite lean in comparison to the 3 which has more weight and breadth - the three is smoother but not duller or recessed. I would say punch is just as good as the 1 but there is greater extension. Instrumental separation is really significantly better as is the texture of voices - much more human sense of inflection. The 1 sounds a bit band limited compared to the 3 I think. I find both bass rhythms and timing easier to follow on the 3 though perhaps the band limiting quality of the 1 helps reinforce timing cues (leading edge attack). Piano definitely has a more Yamaha quality to it through the Mk1 than the 3 and the 1 has a sort of 'edge of the seat' quality to it whilst the 3 is a bit more considered (though weirdly it also manages to make the system seem more intimate and sounds really spring out from the soundstage).
Ultimately, I can only write what I hear, your views may be different and the only way to truly know is to try it yourself (you can always get your money back if you don't like it).
Mark, that is a really useful and informative comparison, as a lot of how you describe the MK1 is how I hear it too. While obviously there is the money-back option, sometimes you just get a feel from comparative descriptions that it is not worth the effort. Come November, I will make my own judgement, and report back with how I get on.
Marco, in this short period I have been asked more constructive questions on this thread than in the entire pfm thread (although, to be fair, I was asked some very good questions on pfm but they were via private PM).
Clive, I quite understand :).
Marcus, I hear what you are saying. The problem with reviewing of this sort is that one is never sure how much ones experience/views are shared. I've re-read through my comments and I'm happy that they accurately represent my thoughts (as I saw them).
The reality is that I listened to the Mk1 Atreatus and liked it - I then used it in my system continualy until I came across the MkIII which I have been using since as I thought it was better. I wasn't, in any way, obliged to use either of them.
The reality is that the Internet allows social misfits to communicate on an equal footing with reasonable people....
Ain’t that the truth, bro! Thank goodness we have ways here of applying a pretty effective ‘twit filter’... ;)
Marco.
I wouldn’t worry about it, some folk have ‘shilling’ on the brain, due to their eternally suspicious and jaundiced view of the world.
No, he took the opportunity to ‘diss’ the notion of cables making a difference, under the guise of being interested in them, thus qualifying his opinion (read as agenda), as a result of having listened to them, therefore negating any criticism for not doing so from subjectivists. ‘Playing them at their own game’, as it were.
Ditto, however only in an ideal world are such things possible, and unfortunately hi-fi forums are not an ideal world.
As is often said, sometimes less is more, so you have to ask yourself, what’s more important, ‘free speech’ and a larger forum populated by those who seek to abuse it for their own selfish ends, or a smaller forum, moderated practically and populated by genuine enthusiasts, willing to be a constructive part of an on-line community?
In my view, it’s better to have realistic goals, and achieve them, than impossible ones, and fail.
Indeed, and I’ve just never understood that mentality, especially the idiots who get their jollies out of trying to annoy others, essentially using someone else’s forum as their own little ‘playground’. You have to wonder what kind of sad, dull lives they lead, if they see that sort of shit as ‘entertainment' :rolleyes:
Anyway, we’ve had our little rant now, so let’s get back to the subject in hand: cables!
Marco.
Probably bullied relentlessly at school mate:lol:
walpurgis
15-10-2014, 22:47
Yes, I've got the Klotz here - made it up myself with the recommended plugs.
I'll have to refresh my specific thoughts by directly comparing it again as I did all this a while ago now.
My thoughts when I tried the Klotz was that it was a very good all rounder - quite full and generous sounding without being dull. I actually thought it was pretty good - ultimately I didn't think it had the same air, delicacy, timbre - will check though.
My only experience of Klotz was with Rega arms. But I came to the same conclusion. I replaced mine.
Probably bullied relentlessly at school mate:lol:
Indeed. I’ve suspected that for a while, and probably unhappy home lives too, so they have to ‘kick out’ somehow… ;)
Marco.
My only experience of Klotz was with Rega arms. But I came to the same conclusion. I replaced mine.
As ever, such things are entirely subjective and also hugely system-dependent. There’s no lack of air, delicacy or timbre here, with the MC5000s (fitted with MS Audio Starline plugs), as those traits are amongst the most important of those I look out for when assessing cables :)
Marco.
Well my comments regarding air, delicacy and timbre were intended to be taken as being relative - when comparing the two directly in A/B; I wasn't saying the MC5000 is obviously lacking in any of them in isolation. I would also add that this is from memory and, as I said earlier (I think), it is some time ago now since I directly compared the cables to each other.
I'll root my MC5000 out and do a direct A/B. Marco, how is yours wired up then - I seem to have lost track of it all? one core is + and the other is return with the shield not connected to anything - is that correct?
Lol, mate, don’t ask me about that techy stuff, ask Brian! :)
There’s no big deal, though. Do the comparison if you feel so inclined, but it won’t alter what I’m hearing here. In order for me to tell you whether I consider that the Atratus III excels more in the areas in question, over the Klotz, I’d of course have to borrow a pair to find out.
Marco.
I was going to do the comparison for Kevin actually (as he is the one who asked me):
Mark,
Have you tried the MC5000 cable in a back to back comparison with these?
I'd be interested to hear your thoughts if you have.
I can't remember how my MC5000 is wired - will have to check; I just thought I would wire it the same as yours, as I assumed that would be the popular preferred method. Perhaps I will prefer the MC5000 when directly compared fresh and with a different wiring config.
No worries, I’m sure Kevin would appreciate that :)
As for how my MC5000s are wired, I suspect they’ve been done the same as Kevin’s (as he also uses the Klotz). However, to know for sure, pop brian2957 a PM, and he’ll confirm, as it was him who wired mine.
Marco.
Brian would have wired them with a floating shield.
Mine are wired with the shield connected at one end.
Brian would have wired them with a floating shield.
Yes, now that you mention it, I remember that’s how it was done :)
Marco.
Brian would have wired them with a floating shield.
Mine are wired with the shield connected at one end.
I sent Brian a PM and he has kindly responded with the pertinent details :). His cables (and Marco's) are as suspected - the two inner cores are + and return with the braided shield floating.
However, your post Kevin has thrown a bit of a spanner in the works and there is a third option of using both the inner cores as the + and the braided shield as the return. In fact, I guess you could argue that there is a fourth option where only one of the inner cores is used as the +, the braided shield is the return and the second inner core is left unconnected.
Oh, how complicated! I think I may have cut the connectors of my MC5000 to use elsewhere - but I have some KLEI Harmony RCAs I can solder on to it - once I've decided which wiring config to go with....
brian2957
16-10-2014, 14:48
Nah , I'm happy with them the way they are Mark . :)
I'll try them like that then
Has anyone tried terminating MC5000 with KLE Harmony's yet?
I will be as those are the plugs I will be using to re(terminate) my MC5000.
Cool, I'll keep my eyes open for your comments ;)
Has anyone tried terminating MC5000 with KLE Harmony's yet?
Yes that's how I made up my sets - I could not get hold of any MS Audio plugs at the time, so went ahead with the KLE's - they sound pretty good to me! I have them wired with the shield connected at the 'source' end, and floating at the other.
Well I've finally got round to re-soldering some plugs onto the MC5000 and will try it again tomorrow. I've wired it with the shield floating but will also try it connected at source.
Be interesting, Mark, to know what you think. In your system though, I doubt that they’ll oust the Atratus :)
Marco.
You mean because I have an emotional investment* in the Atratus? Perhaps - though I have both cables so can easily choose to run either. I tell you what, if I secretly end up preferring the MC5000 but can't bring myself to admit it in public I will PM you - that should excite the conspiracy theorists :).
*I don't feel that attached to it; I mean, it's not a design of mine and it's just an interconnect - still, I suppose I wrote the above review.
Lol… You can be rather amusing sometimes! No, what I meant was that the Atratus appear to suit the balance of your system *really* well, so barring a miracle, I don’t expect you to luck out as much, in that respect, with the Klotz.
Who knows, though? We await the outcome with baited breath… ;)
Marco.
Just started having a listen now......
OK,I have listened - interesting too as they are actually more different than I expected. My immediate thought listening to the MC5000 was 'yes' I like this :)', so that's a good start. The next thing that hit me was the bass - really strong (in terms of weight) and the top end was silky smooth; lots of detail too. So, I switched back to the Atratus and the difference was really quite pronounced. The upper registers seemed to open up, but the lower registers lost some of the weight of the MC5000. So I chopped and changed backward and forward a bit and concluded that the lower registers of the Atratus were indeed leaner (but tighter - well, that suggests the Klotz has loose bass which isn't the case), they still had good extension but not quite the same level of heft the MC5000 had. However, whilst I thought the MC5000 bass was fun, I did conclude that pitch was easier to differentiate on the Atratus. In general the MC5000 was smooth whilst the Atratus was more about the leading edges and had better focus behind the plane of the speakers (though sounds sprang out ahead of the speaker line well with the Klotz, it seemed less focused as the soundstage receded). One of the more telling, for me, moments was listening to some piano - this sounded a touch flat on the Klotz and the attack was noticeably better (IMO) on the Atratus.
So, although both cables used KLEI Harmony plugs they weren't the same plugs, the Klotz MC5000 had the copper version (that's what I had) and the Atratus III had the silver version. I'll next wire the MC5000 so the shield is terminated to ground at one end and try again. I may also try it wired a third way if I can raise sufficient enthusiasm.
Interesting thoughts, Mark, the majority of which I agree with and can readily relate to :)
The realistic bass extension and ‘silky smoothness’ (but lots of detail, too), which you’ve identified, from experience I’d suggest were fundamental (and inherent) traits of the Klotz, which should be obvious in any good system that doesn’t possess a tilted or recessed tonal response, due to having been ‘voiced’ by the existing cables acting as tone controls.
I’ve obviously not heard the Atratus, so they could be particularly gifted in the areas where you found them superior to the Klotz.
However, I’d also suggest that what you’ve described in that area is largely system dependent, and so whether you hear the sonic advantages you’ve highlighted with the Atratus, over the Klotz, will depend on how the partnering system is balanced; in essence how much attack, focus and leading-edge definition, etc, is inherent in the equipment and speakers, without any ‘help’ from the cables.
Do you see what I mean? Hopefully I’ve explained myself clearly in that respect.
If you can get a chance to try the MC5000s terminated in different ways, I’d appreciate that, and value your input on what difference you think it makes :cool:
Marco.
brian2957
21-10-2014, 20:08
Could it be that some of the differences you're hearing are caused by the differing plugs Mark . I know some people don't believe that plugs make a difference . However there are very audible differences between the silver plated and the Rhodium plated MS Audio plugs fitted to the MC5000 , the latter being a tad more ' laid back ' than the silver plated plugs . The differences you are highlighting are also the differences in SQ between silver and copper cables / plugs . I'm not saying that the Atratus isn't a better cable , it may well be . Unfortunately the only way to be sure would be to swap the plugs around on the cables . A lot of work though as you may have to swap them back again :rolleyes:
I will also be interested in your findings on the different cable configurations on the MC5000 Mark . Thanks for taking the time to write this up .
Well that's why I mention the plugs really. I have compared the KLEI copper and silver directly before (on the same cable) and then I felt the differences were largely about image focus and solidity so the comments about sounds being better focussed behind the plane of the speakers could well be plug related. Ultimately, I did think the silvers were better than the coppers so I think some of the difference is bound to be plug related.
The Atratus doesn't use silver cable though, it's copper like the MC5000.
Will keep you posted.
Yeah, it certainly looks like the MS Audio Starline plugs Brian and I are using could be slightly skewing the results, in comparison with what you’re hearing with the KLEs, particularly as I use the sliver version of the MS Audios….
Yup, do keep us posted :)
Marco.
However, I’d also suggest that what you’ve described in that area is largely system dependent, and so whether you hear the sonic advantages you’ve highlighted with the Atratus, over the Klotz, will depend on how the partnering system is balanced; in essence how much attack, focus and leading-edge definition, etc, is inherent in the equipment and speakers, without any ‘help’ from the cables.
Do you see what I mean? Hopefully I’ve explained myself clearly in that respect.
If you can get a chance to try the MC5000s terminated in different ways, I’d appreciate that, and value your input on what difference you think it makes :cool:
Marco.
Yeah, I think you've put that well and I agree. You know, when I write 'surprisingly large difference' I mean within the context of interconnect cables - in fact 'context' is the relevant word throughout and all these differences are what I thought when I directly/immediately compared one to the other (level matched of course). A lot of the apparent difference wouldn't occur to one spontaneously; a direct comparison has to be present. As you say, it's not so much that the cables have this sound within them, it's more how they allow the components to realise their own qualities, or modulate those qualities - and those qualities do not exist in the same way/balance in each system. I should also say that I agree with your comments regarding cables as tone controls - that is not their role. A cable would have to have very extreme specs to actively act as a tone control. In this case neither cable sounded bright or dull, for example.
I've also got some of the plugs you are using (MS Audio Starline) - silver ones - I think they are on another cable at the minute but I could also experiment with them.
As you say, it's not so much that the cables have this sound within them, it's more how they allow the components to realise their own qualities, or modulate those qualities - and those qualities do not exist in the same way/balance in each system.
That’s it in a nutshell! :)
It’s also why you have to be careful that you’re listening to cables genuinely allowing the components to realise their own qualities, and not simply imposing a false ‘sonic signature’, external to that, which is appealing to your ears.
I should also say that I agree with your comments regarding cables as tone controls - that is not their role. A cable would have to have very extreme specs to actively act as a tone control. In this case neither cable sounded bright or dull, for example.
Slic, anyone? ;)
Cables should NEVER deliberately be used as tone controls, as otherwise that will simply act as a ‘sticking plaster’, masking issues elsewhere in the chain.
However, the problem is that due to what I’ve explained when answering your previous point, you can very easily, subconsciously and indirectly, end up using them as such, simply because you can be fooled into believing that the most ‘impressive’ sound is the right one, when in fact you're being seduced by a form of euphonic coloration that isn’t meant to exist.
I've also got some of the plugs you are using (MS Audio Starline) - silver ones - I think they are on another cable at the minute but I could also experiment with them.
If you can be arsed trying them, I’d value your opinion.
Marco.
However, the problem is that due to what I’ve explained when answering your previous point, you can very easily, subconsciously and indirectly, end up using them as such, simply because you can be fooled into believing that the most ‘impressive’ sound is the right one, when in fact you're simply being seduced by a form of euphonic coloration.
It is possible to over-analyse this, if it sounds right to the person who owns the gear then there's little point in that person delving into it any further, that's how I understand it anyway. It's a very personal thing really.
Indeed, Dave. Much depends if you’re building a system to produce a sound that’s simply pleasing to your ears, or one that is genuinely realistic :)
If it’s the latter, as is the case for me, then this bit is crucial:
It’s also why you have to be careful that you’re listening to cables genuinely allowing the components to realise their own qualities, and not simply imposing a false ‘sonic signature’, external to that, which is appealing to your ears.
Unfortunately that’s not an easy thing to do. In that respect, there’s no substitute for experience. Also, how much music you’re listening to on your system is also a good indicator of what’s ‘right’ for you - and that applies to one’s choice of cables, the same as anything else.
Marco.
I enjoy listening to music on the system for most of the day, whether I'm working or relaxing, so I must be doing something right. Another good indicator that all is well is that I find myself seeking out live recordings far more than I used to ;)
That’s interesting… Do you find live recordings more ‘sonically taxing’ or what? I love well-produced live recordings (especially of acoustic music), as when reproduced accurately, they give a palpable sense of ‘being there’ :)
Marco.
brian2957
22-10-2014, 08:03
So do I , but I think the key words here are ' well produced ' live recordings .
That’s interesting… Do you find live recordings more ‘sonically taxing’ or what? I love well-produced live recordings (especially of acoustic music), as when reproduced accurately, they give a palpable sense of ‘being there’ :)
Marco.
Not 'taxing' at all, only that a nicely produced live recording sounds fabulous on this system, one good example being Nils Lofgren's Acoustic Live and another is The Darwin Song Project recorded at the Shrewsbury Folk Festival in 2009, which in many respects is a better production than Acoustic Live :)
I don't think live recordings are more taxing. In fact, studio recordings with their dense layers of mulitracking can be very challenging. However, what live recordings do have, good ones that is, is a directness that can be missing from heavily processed studio albums and a sense of hall acoustic.
I've had to go away for a couple of days so cable investigations will have to wait until I return. I think I'll buy some cheap RCA plugs and also try them - for reference.
cyclopse
22-10-2014, 18:36
I don't think live recordings are more taxing. In fact, studio recordings with their dense layers of mulitracking can be very challenging. However, what live recordings do have, good ones that is, is a directness that can be missing from heavily processed studio albums and a sense of hall acoustic.
I've had to go away for a couple of days so cable investigations will have to wait until I return. I think I'll buy some cheap RCA plugs and also try them - for reference.
The suspense is killing me.
Well, I'll be back home later today.
“We'll”… Is that the day-care nurse walking you back from the shops again? :eyebrows:
;)
Marco.
No we'll - just me - well as in well, well what do we have here :)
Ah, I see… :)
Have you been listening much to the Klotz since we last spoke - which cables are in your system now?
Marco.
No, I'm in Manchester (sort of - Hale to be precise). I haven't listened at all since my last comparison. I should be back early evening tonight so may be able to fit in a quick listen - soldering the shield to ground won't take long.
I've finally got round to rewiring the Klotz so the shield is attached to ground at the source end (my Paradise phonostage). It's quite interesting really. I would say that my comments regarding relative lack of focus behind the plane of the speakers are still true and the sound is still smooth and silky, but the significant difference in the bass which sounds less full and warm than before. It is now more like the Atratus III (ie tighter) it still doesn't have the leading edge attack of the Atratus though. I think there is a good chance that if you like the bass of the Klotz with the shield not connected you may well not like it when it is connected. It's interesting that although connecting the Klotz's shield makes the bass more like the Atratus this is not how the Atratus is actually wired.
Next I will try the Klotz with both central cores wired as + and the shield wired as the return.
(I'm listening now and I think the piano tone is more real with the Klotz wired this way - I think I prefer this to the floating shield configuration. I'm off to meet a friend for a drink but may get the chance to listen later.)
edit: hmm... I've just swopped the Atratus back in and it's quite a bit more vivid, dynamic and focussed. I really need a number of lengths of the Klotz - will do some more A/B.
jandl100
26-10-2014, 07:37
edit: hmm... I've just swopped the Atratus back in and it's quite a bit more vivid, dynamic and focussed.
That's my view as well - I've tried a few of the 'cheap studio cable' variants and on extended listening they all lack a layer or two of fine rez and that makes them seem a bit bland, in my system and to my ears.
imo, they can be initially impressive as the relative lack of background detail makes the 'main foreground events' stand out more in greater contrast. But extended listening shows up the lack of low level rez including a lack of ambient info from the recording venue. This has the effect of reducing the realistic sense of presence and vividness that I hear the Atratus III letting through - actually hearing the real background to the music is better than hearing silence when silence shouldn't be there! I heard very similar effects with the Quad 606 amp - great to start with but a bit 'meh' in the longer term once you've heard what a better component lets through.
Recent auditioning has shown me that the NVA TIS cable is even more transparent than the Atratus III, but it does cost a lot more depending on length required.
Is there no end to it?
No, probably not! :)
Just my 2p worth. :cool:
That's interesting Jerry; obviously I've not tried the NVA TIS* (not being on the NVA Christmas card list :)) but the opportunity may present itself.
After my last post I did do a little more listening to the rewired Klotz and thought the following:
My further thoughts are that with the shield floating the sound is big and buoyant but a touch 'loose' and tonally flat, with the shield connected the sound is tighter (and I think truer) but it is less dynamic and touch 'shut in' - the music doesn't swell and develop in the same way as the Atratus or the Klotz as when wired with a floating shield.
Yesterday I wired the Klotz in the final of the three configurations - with both the inner cores forming the + and the shield forming the return - I'll have a listen today and post my thoughts. To be honest, I'm surprised that nobody appears to have already tried/compared wiring the Klotz in these three different combinations.
* Does TIS stand for The Interconnect Statement (I'm guessing it does judging from previous names from RD)?
EDIT: I've just looked up said TIS cable and see it is £560 for a 1 metre length (and uses £30 of Neutrik Profi RCA plugs)! Is this considered to be the maximum price the direct sales market will stand I wonder.
The cable is extremely expensive compared to most other 'audio' cables and the whole thing is VERY labour intensive to make up. I don't believe it to be priced to suit a market, more the actual cost including labour and with standard markup applied to all the other products he makes.
jandl100
26-10-2014, 09:21
RD and I have "agreed to differ" about the benefits of 'better' RCA plugs. I can only stand and wonder what the NVA TIS would sound like with, say, KLEI silver RCA plugs fitted as on the Atratus III. :eek:
I think the TIS is sold in price steps of 10cm length, so if you can get away with much less than 1m lengths then you save a lot of £££.
Nonetheless, I'm staying with Atratus III for the nonce, as to my ears you get a healthy dollop (call it 80% if you want to stick a rather arbitrary number on it) of TIS-like performance for a lot less £wonga.
Well done Dave, you'll get a gold star for repeating that rhetoric! All you've done there is to quote the unsupported claims of the manufacturer - you don't actually know any of that do you?
brian2957
26-10-2014, 10:12
Thanks gents . I never got around to trying the MC5000 in the third configuration Mark . TBH with you the MC5000 was the last in a very long line of tested cables and by that stage I was a bit fed up mucking around and decided to call a halt when I found one I was really happy with . Work can also interfere with this kind of thing as I like to try a cable with at least 24 hours use on it before making a decision . I don't have any of the MC5000 cable at the moment however I will be keeping an eye on this thread for your findings Mark .
Thank you for passing on this information , it's very valuable to hobbyist cable makers like me .
Hi Brian, Yes I was trying all those options that were suggested in the pro cable thread (can't remember its exact title) and also found it a bit much in the end; then the Atratus arrived and I was sidetracked by that.
Thanks gents . I never got around to trying the MC5000 in the third configuration Mark .
If you didn't try the third wiring config did you try it with the second, with the shield connected to ground at source? If so, what were your findings?
brian2957
26-10-2014, 11:17
Yes I did try the second configuration Mark . In my system I thought the bass was all over the place and the sound lost some dynamics and focus , in short I really didn't like what I heard . I must admit that I didn't give it my usual 24 hours as I really didn't think that it would change enough for me to take a liking to it .
Hmm... not sure that parallels my own experience that closely, except for the loss of dynamics - but perhaps.
brian2957
26-10-2014, 12:08
Understood Mark , admittedly it was some time ago now and as I preferred the sound of the cables ( in general ) without the shield attached I didn't think about it too much . May , or may not , be worth revisiting if / when my enthusiasm for such things returns . Or I may just sit back and enjoy the music for a while Mark :D
If you have a positive experience with the third wiring option I will certainly go down that road and post my findings here .
I'm having a listen now to the Klotz wired with the shield as the return. It's been too long to remember anything much about the Klotz wired with a floating shield but I can't say I'm very keen on this config. It's OK but dynamically quite restrained. The best thing about is instrumental focus which I think is the best of the three wiring configurations. It still has the smooth and slightly soft character but bass attack is quite restrained as is the whole dynamic structure. The whole sound is lacking snap and contrast. The bass has a soft but rather unfocused quality to it, the leading edge is toned down so attack is muted - this makes the mid appear to stand out better but I think that's just a psychoacoustic effect caused by the recessed bass. The top end seems much the same as when wired in other configs, it's pretty detailed and never sounds harsh, but then is never has a lot of bite either.
If I can be arsed I might go to the trouble of wiring it back the original way with the shield disconnected entirely and see what my thoughts are again. Not sure I can be bothered to be honest.
I'm listening to 'Circle' Leviatan and I must and it's OK I guess, but I'm not enjoying it like I usually do. Tori Amos' voice on 'Unrepentant Geraldines' doesn't emote in the same way - it's all a touch pedestrian. I think it's as Jerry rather described - lacking in low level detail and undynamic. Anyway, I'm becoming increasingly negative about the sound so I'll stop there.
Have just this second swopped back to the Atratus and its immediately a lot more 'open' sounding and Tori's voice is significantly more emotive with a lot clearer range of inflection to her singing - a lot more fun frankly. The bass is significantly better focussed which seems to give better impact.
I'm listening now tithe Circle record again but withe Atratus III in the system and its a lot more atmospheric - I'm struck by the depth of the bass in the opening track and how tightly focussed it is in a spot behind the plane of the speakers.
The second track now which is quite dense with a lot competing for attention - good differentiation between the instruments. You can hear the layers being built and then falling away - the heavily reverb laden vocals stay focussed between the speakers.
brian2957
26-10-2014, 18:26
Thanks Mark , you've just saved me the trouble of ordering some more MC5000 . I think we've got to stop for a while when we're reasonably happy with things . take stock , and just enjoy the music. The Atratus 3 sounds like a fine cable for the money mate. I'm enjoying the MC5000s in my system at the moment and it will probably stay there until I ( or somebody else on the forum ) finds another relatively cheap cable or combination to try . Thanks for taking the time to try the different configurations for the MC5000 and for passing on your findings . AOS at its best once again .:)
Well I think I'm done as far as Klotz MC5000 investigations are concerned and respectfully suggest that users of said cable are perhaps better placed to investigate further. As far as I am concerned there are certainly differences between methods of wiring but beyond that I would say my experience is inconclusive.
NVA SSC versus Atratus III
I've been loaned a sample of the NVA (Nene Valley Audio) SSC interconnect cable (£70 for a one metre pair - available on eBay direct from NVA) and am having a listen to it now. Blimey, anybody who thinks interconnects all sound the same should audition this! What a strange sounding thing it is - the very top end is very restrained and the bass is similarly curtailed - so much so it's like a bass filter is in place. This makes the mid/lower treble stand out but it's not very detailed and there is a slightly coarse quality to it. Stereo is OK but nothing special - focus is much better on the Atratus as is image depth and sense of acoustic; this SSC is quite thin sounding. I suppose if your system is really warm and sluggish sounding this may be the tonic but this is one of the more contrived sounding interconnects I have heard - really not very detailed or dynamic sounding and the bass is all leading edge with really little weight, texture or extension! They also have some of the nastiest and cheapest RCA plugs I have ever encountered!
I've rewired the Klotz so the shield is floating and this completely trounces the NVA cable - vastly better in every way! It's a lot more open and dynamic. I'm just having a longer listen to it before I put the Atratus back in.
OK, I've compared, or rather re-compared, the Klotz (wired with floating shield) to the Atratus III and still think as per my original thoughts on the Klotz as I wrote in post #49. The best aspect of the Klotz is the sense of weight the bass has and its gently smooth character. It's not smooth as in in a loss of detail, but there is some loss of leading edge attack which lends a slightly restrained quality to it. Vocals are reasonably expressive and in isolation very good but in direct comparison I find the Atratus more open, dynamic and expressive. It's quite a bit easier to follow cymbal syncopation and low background sounds on the Atratus too. You can still hear them on the Klotz but they less obviously form a musical pattern/rhythm.
On balance I think the floating shield option probably is the best one for the Klotz. I think it's less accurate than the shield connected at source but more expressive and plays to the Klotz's strengths.
Very odd that Mark as the SSC's have really enabled this system to shine. I enjoyed having the Atratus III's in my system however the SSC's just pipped them to the post. Incidentally, are you using a passive pre? This might explain the difference in performance if you are not.
No, I'm not using a passive pre-amp Dave. The cables are inserted between my phonostage and active pre-amp. As you say, that may account for the difference but I don't know; I was really surprised how odd these cables sounded.
brian2957
30-10-2014, 22:47
Yes I thought that the MC5000 sounded best with the shield floating too Mark although I didn't try all the configurations you did . As a VFM DIY interconnect I still think it's hard to beat .
wee tee cee
31-10-2014, 01:44
Must be a synergy thing...I have a NVA SSC that in my set up is really detailed and fast sounding, a bit too toppy for my set up but suits my sons running the SSC on the treble and a MG/EICHMAN silver bullet on the bass. I have an original Atratus that didn't gel with my system but serves its purpose with an epiphany head amp as a secondary headphone rig.
The klotz cables Brian made up for me are in my set up the best I have tried so far regardless of cost, great synergy with my system.
Ammonite Audio
31-10-2014, 07:51
NVA SSC versus Atratus III
I've been loaned a sample of the NVA (Nene Valley Audio) SSC interconnect cable (£70 for a one metre pair - available on eBay direct from NVA) and am having a listen to it now. Blimey, anybody who thinks interconnects all sound the same should audition this! What a strange sounding thing it is - the very top end is very restrained and the bass is similarly curtailed - so much so it's like a bass filter is in place. This makes the mid/lower treble stand out but it's not very detailed and there is a slightly coarse quality to it. Stereo is OK but nothing special - focus is much better on the Atratus as is image depth and sense of acoustic; this SSC is quite thin sounding. I suppose if your system is really warm and sluggish sounding this may be the tonic but this is one of the more contrived sounding interconnects I have heard - really not very detailed or dynamic sounding and the bass is all leading edge with really little weight, texture or extension! They also have some of the nastiest and cheapest RCA plugs I have ever encountered!
I've rewired the Klotz so the shield is floating and this completely trounces the NVA cable - vastly better in every way! It's a lot more open and dynamic. I'm just having a longer listen to it before I put the Atratus back in.
This just shows that we (and our systems) are all different; and that all cable observations have to be kept firmly that context. I do own and use a pair of NVA SSC interconnects and find them to be rather nicely balanced - certainly not rolled off at either end. The SSCs are at least as good as the Mark Grant G2000HDs that I also have, with the added benefit of being relatively flexible and easy to place, without fiddly WBT NextGen plugs! I'm sure that the SSCs would sound better with KLE plugs, but they wouldn't sell for such a reasonable price.
So, based on my own experience, in my own system, I'd recommend the NVA SSCs without hesitation. I would like to try the Atratus III, though, but how can there be a business case selling these for not much more than the retail price of the KLE plugs?
I'm also surprised by the comments.
I found the SSC to be anything but restricted. I would have happily used more if I wasn't spending so much on doing major house improvements.
jandl100
31-10-2014, 08:58
Re: NVA SSC
Must be a synergy thing...
Absolutely.
My main long term experience is with the NVA SC (Sound Cord).
When I first tried it, quite a few years ago, it made my system sound genuinely awful (even worse than it usually does ;)). Just yuk.
But due to the high opinion of it held by others, a few years later I tried it again. Of course, by then my system had pretty much totally changed! And it sounded really quite fine.
IMHO both experiences remain valid, and I would say that the SC (and probably the SSC, they are very similar) is the most system dependent cable I have ever heard. When it works for you it is :thumbsup: and is excellent vfm, when it doesn't it is :spew:.
I happily use NVA SC for secondary sources (DVD, vinyl, tape) in my systems.
You just have to try it and see if it works well in your system. :)
I don't know if I would use the term restricted, but certainly contoured.
I don't have anything to do with the sale of either design (or anything to do with them in any other respect either) so I don't know how the costings are worked out. In the case of the KLEI plugs I guess they are bought at trade price and the cost/saving relative to retail is passed on. Regarding the SSC, as you say it's reasonably priced (but then the plugs on that retail for less than £1.00 each). Although the SSC does have very cheap (both in terms of cost and quality) RCA's I doubt they are responsible for the qualities I heard (I believe the manufacturer thinks RCA plugs make no difference).
Apparently it would appear that the SSC is very system dependent. Thinking about it, I will set up my CD player and try it between that and my pre-amp (the only issue there is that I don't have a lot of CD's) - it's possible it's not getting on with my phonostage.
Aren't all cables system dependent and listener dependent to some degree. ;)
I would concur with that Jerry. Although a slightly different animal I did have a set of Sound Pipes here for a while (back in the days when I still had the DR5, which is an active pre of course) and they did not perform at all well in the system as it was then, I reckon they'd fare much better in my current setup though.
jandl100
31-10-2014, 10:04
According to Mr Dunn, the SC, SSC and latest mk2 SSP use the same cable just increasing numbers of it! - 1, 2 & 4 resp, I believe.
According to Mr Dunn, the SC, SSC and SSP use the same cable just increasing numbers of it! - 1, 2 & 4 resp, I believe.
That would be logical. I believe that the cable is one originally intended as an ultra high frequency microwave conductor. These cables are of a coaxial construction with a single solid core. As skin effect increasingly becomes relevant as frequency rises these cables often use aluminium for the core (sometimes steel) and are copper plated, or copper plated and then silver plated. The core material reduces the overall weight of the cable (important in aeroplanes and vehicles) and the signal travels on the surface of the conductor in the plating. This is the theory regarding such cables as I have read it.
Looking at the NVA website it would suggest that SC uses single runs of this cable with the core used for positive and the shield used as return. SSC would appear to use double runs of the same cable with the shield left floating (disconnected) and the cores used for positive and return. I was under the impression that SSP (the model above SSC) uses a slightly different microwave cable where the shield is a solid copper or aluminium tube - you can also get versions where this tube is corrugated to improve flexibility.
Well done Dave, you'll get a gold star for repeating that rhetoric! All you've done there is to quote the unsupported claims of the manufacturer - you don't actually know any of that do you?
Er, yes I do actually and my short T.I.S. was made up for me in my presence...
Mark, you should know me well enough by now to realise I don't tell porkies! If I'm mis-informed I'll gush an apology 'your' way. The Doc has stated his mark-up percentage online (I think at PFM), so I'm not going to say any more on this :)
The SC is a stiffly stranded centre core with a tight woven screen around it, sourced from the US he tells me (to my face by the way) and by the way, the plugs do NOT retail for under a quid each, certainly not in the quantities you or I might buy them in anyway and once VAT is added. The basic Neutrik/Rean RCA's which do look 'better' I suppose, are actually cheaper methinks.
None of this is worth falling out over is it? The Klotz can be got from Studiospares and the smooth acting MS plugs from eBay. Not soldering the outer shield makes for a neater solder job too, irrespective of any other considerations (and as I said on the Audioflat forum, Naim have been doing this for years, going one further step back in not separating the left and right channel conductors at all and messing with the stereo image perception as a result in my direct experience). The total for the Klotz if you can make it yourself is quite modest and Brian does a splendid neat job if you'd like him to do it for you and for a not unreasonable monetary consideration. The SC and SSC cable isn't overpriced either and you can return them if not happy.
Dave , you sent me a PM that indirectly suggested I may be using the SSC incorrectly. If this is the case please say and I will attempt to use it differently or try to hear it used thus - I would be happy to print an update? The reason I say the plugs are less than £1 each is because I have just bought four identical ones on eBay for £2.99 (postage included). I won't be using them now though and you can have them if you like.
This just shows that we (and our systems) are all different; and that all cable observations have to be kept firmly that context. I do own and use a pair of NVA SSC interconnects and find them to be rather nicely balanced - certainly not rolled off at either end. The SSCs are at least as good as the Mark Grant G2000HDs that I also have, with the added benefit of being relatively flexible and easy to place, without fiddly WBT NextGen plugs! I'm sure that the SSCs would sound better with KLE plugs, but they wouldn't sell for such a reasonable price.
So, based on my own experience, in my own system, I'd recommend the NVA SSCs without hesitation. I would like to try the Atratus III, though, but how can there be a business case selling these for not much more than the retail price of the KLE plugs?
I also enjoyed the SSCs (which you’ll see if you read my review), and so they certainly perform rather differently here in my system than they do in Mark’s. The interesting thing is that although Mark’s and my opinions on the SSCs are quite different, we pretty much agree about the Klotz, the only difference being that in my system there is no lack of leading edge definition or dynamics, nor do they sound remotely ‘soft toned’.
Marco.
Perhaps I'm blinded by the personality of NVA but I actually expected to find them pretty good as NVA gear, in general, is the sound I tend to like. Will try them again tomorrow and will read your review Marco (which I don't think I've read). Having said that, yours and my systems are really very dissimilar Marco.
Regarding the Klotz, all those comments of mine are relative, when directly A/B compared (I know you appreciate that) - none of those aspects occur to one spontaneously when listening to it in isolation.
Your inbox is full Mark ;)
Perhaps I'm blinded by the personality of NVA but I actually expected to find them pretty good as NVA gear, in general, is the sound I tend to like. Will try them again tomorrow and will read your review Marco (which I don't think I've read). Having said that, yours and my systems are really very dissimilar Marco.
No worries. It’s simply personal opinion, all of which is valid :)
Regarding the Klotz, all those comments of mine are relative, when directly A/B compared (I know you appreciate that) - none of those aspects occur to one spontaneously when listening to it in isolation.
Yup, that’s cool.
I was referring to the ‘soft/full toned’ comments, which DSJR mentions repeatedly about the Klotz (no doubt his honest opinion), but which for me only apply if your system relies on cables that possess an emphasised top-end/recessed bass, in order for it to achieve a neutral tonal balance, thereby sounding soft or ‘full toned’ when used with cables that have a more even-handed, non-emphasised top-end and tonally neutral lower frequencies.
Therefore, I don’t consider the Klolz MC5000s as inherently soft or ‘full toned’. If they sound that way, then blame your system, not the cables! ;)
Marco.
By the way, the plugs used on the NVA interconnects according to posts elsewhere, are these - http://www.rapidonline.com/Cables-Connectors/Gold-plated-phono-plugs-TruConnect-63514
IMO, the SSCs deserve fitting with much better plugs [read as ones that feature solid-copper or silver conductors], where (as with any other quality cables), they would then reveal their full performance potential, especially in systems using equipment fitted with the same type of sockets.
Kevin, you were going to try doing that and reporting back, were you not? :)
Marco.
Planned for this weekend.
I have some RG316, and I have some plugs.
Nice one - it’ll be interesting finding out what you think :)
Marco.
The only issues I can see are that I don't have the exact cable NVA use.
Of course, if the proprietor of NVA hadn't told me he would cancel any order I placed, I would have ordered another SSC and changed the plugs.
However, this is the only way I can see if the plugs make a difference without messing up the control cable (the real NVA). The SSC works well, and I don't want to mess it up.
I also need to wait until the real SSC arrives back before I can do any comparison. Without the exact cable, and differences will be hard to attribute to the plugs.
Planned for this weekend.
I have some RG316, and I have some plugs.
Doesn't that have a multi strand inner core though? The SSC has a single solid core.
Yes, so as you can see, it's similar to the SSC in that it has one plug at each end of the cable, and two cables per mono run.
RG402 has a solid core.
Doesn't that have a multi strand inner core though? The SSC has a single solid core.
Are you thinking of the now discontinued SSPmk1 Mark? The microwave cable of which you speak was used by the Chord Co in their 'Solid' interconnects as the inner solid core for hot and the copper outer pipe as a return (I think the original SP was like this). The SSP used two of these in tandem and the problems arose when the inner cores only were connected and only too easily broken if accidentally roughly handled.
The SC, SSC and SSPmk2 use RG316U cable which is a stranded centre conductor (silver on copper although some are silver on steel, with copper in between?), the dielectric looks like a poly - whatever derivative and the screen is again seemingly silver plated and tightly woven. I like it because it's easy to solder up (I have NOTHING WHATEVER to do with the made up NVA ones I must add) and the inner dielectric doesn't melt back up the inner conductor with the heat, as some stuff I've used in the past did ;)
If you look behind the Phono 1 I was testing out after soldering up, you'll see both suspects, my home made SSC on the left and Brian's made up Klotz MC5000 on the other :)
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/_SCF2789_zps24339904.jpg (http://s132.photobucket.com/user/DSJR_photos/media/_SCF2789_zps24339904.jpg.html)
Oh yes, sorry - I've had a closer look and, as you say, it is stranded.
I have been told that it is possible that the sample of SSC may not be truly representative (though it looks fine to me). However, in the interests of fairness, I have managed to source a second sample and this should be with me in a few days.
The sample you have is a NVA SSC and has not been altered since it left NVA, unless unscrewing the outer barrel of one connector (which you have probably done as well) is considered as altering it.
If there is anything wrong with it, then it is an error from manufacture. I am confident that if it was made correctly, then you will find no difference between the two. If you do, please let me know as I'll be seeking a refund for faulty goods.
Perhaps I should add that I have (carefully) unscrewed the barrels of the RCA plugs (easy to do as no heatshrink is used) and had a close look at the connections. All four look identical and are actually very neatly done - neatly trimmed cable and neatly soldered - nothing looks like it has been altered in any way.
I've been asked to post some pictures of the SSC's construction:
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h90/markemark_2006/Hi-Fi/928024DF-F833-4537-8FD2-CBD1527A9B61_zpsa1cqhwya.jpg
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h90/markemark_2006/Hi-Fi/A5738D8D-8EB7-423C-895F-E7C338F44022_zpsamucortn.jpg
Nothing looks like it has been tampered with or altered in any way. Indeed, the owner of this cable assures me that it is exactly as it was when delivered from NVA and I see no reason to question that.
If you look behind the Phono 1 I was testing out after soldering up, you'll see both suspects, my home made SSC on the left and Brian's made up Klotz MC5000 on the other :)
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/_SCF2789_zps24339904.jpg (http://s132.photobucket.com/user/DSJR_photos/media/_SCF2789_zps24339904.jpg.html)
P.S. Can I add that I assembled the Phono 1 in the picture, although I have no dealings whatsoever with the cables or larger mono amps! Hopefully this might explain the multiple visits to NVA towers since the early summer and it's great for me, having two unrelated part time jobs. I don't want to pull wool over anyone's eyes, so best to state my involvement now.
Anyway, I think things have moved well on from this (and by the way, I still rate Rega products very highly ;))
Just to be clear then Dave - are you saying you built the NVA headphone amp in the pic above on behalf of the owner; in other words, you are doing some paid part time work for NVA constructing some of their/his equipment?
---------
Regarding my earlier comments regarding a replacement SSC interconnect to compare against the first sample I tried - this second sample has just been delivered and visually looks identical to the other.
I answered the question above in post 118 :rolleyes: Do keep up Mark :lol:
There's no need to be snippy David. Yes, you did make a statement, but not a very clear one in my opinion - I'll take your response as 'yes, accurately summarised'!
Good news on the job front.
I'm surprised you are not let loose on the easier/lower end cables. They are not difficult to make.
I'd expect them to be much easier to do than assembling an amp.
The high end stuff sounds quite labour intensive though. It has to be to justify the price.
ALL the boxes are labour intensive and every one is custom constructed from the ground up. Unlike Naim for example, I don't have racks of machine pre-cut wire all ready tinned in a flow solder machine. Every wire is cut and dressed individually and it's fulfilling many needs in 'doing something' with what little talents in audio I still have.
It's been suggested that I offer a turntable restoration & setup service. I'm still not sure on this one, as I no longer have access to a Linn jig (Regas and many Thorens decks also fit) and hifi dave's one is seventy miles from where I live (as is Epping by the way). I do like tinkering with old turntables though, and the Dual 1214 idler deck I saved from the scrap heap and did up is working and sounding beautifully as Duals do.. There are too many turntable doer-uppers out there, but it's a possibility ;)
In the meantime, the soldering iron is working overtime and I have another little job in the education sector with possibility of more hours to come in the middle of next year. I've recently applied to undertake tax 'self assessment' which should be fun come April time :)
P.S. The cables, apart from straight SC, again can take some time to construct. Heat-shrink by the km in various layers and so on and so on. For all I know, most of the smaller online concerns making this kind of stuff up take their time to do this job as well.
I promise to keep my NVA comments to an absolute minimum, otherwise it'll be Regashillgate all over again, but from the opposite direction :lol:
Mr Kipling
05-11-2014, 18:34
You can get a solder pot for as little as £15. The one generally available is for 220 volts though:
191120927736
Come on Dave… a turntable jig shouldn't be too hard to fabricate for a man of your calibre… I've used a couple of stools in the past.
P.S. The cables, apart from straight SC, again can take some time to construct. Heat-shrink by the km in various layers and so on and so on. For all I know, most of the smaller online concerns making this kind of stuff up take their time to do this job as well.
It must be well hidden, or the design has changed?
My SSC didn't show any signs of having heat shrink fitted. It does not look like it needs it though, as it's made very neatly (as can be seen from the pictures).
There is a bit of heatshrink visible holding the two cables together just as they enter the plugs, it's mostly hidden by the black Techflex style outer braid and isn't easy to see.
Actually, there is one difference between the two sets of cables that may be key and that is their length - one is 700mm long and the other is only 500mm.
Last night I compared the two sets of SSC that have been kindly loaned to me (plus a few other interconnects I have to hand). Also, in the interests of fairness, I changed the position they were used in compared to my previous comparative test. This time the interconnects were connected between a CD player and my pre-amp (I don't normally even have a CD player wired into the system).
First up was the first SSC cable and I was quickly reminded of the qualities I wrote about earlier - dry and tight, rather 'airless' in the upper registers and very little bass weight or depth, just leading note attack. The overall effect is up-tempo but a bit tiring. I changed over to the more recent SSC (the shorter one) and I'll be damned, much to my surprise*, it blooming does sound different - distinctly fuller and weightier in the bass and a bit less 'shut in' in the upper registers - very odd indeed! Given that the first set genuinely does not show any sign of being altered in any way I can only presume that the audible difference are down to the different lengths (200mm)! The distance between my phonostage and pre-amp usually requires a one metre interconnect so both of these cables are short for me.... I can only wonder what a 300mm longer cable would sound like relative to the 700mm one I auditioned.
* I say 'much to my surprise' because I've had a look at how both these cables are constructed (with the permission of the cables owners) and they look pretty much identical - the wires are trimmed in the same way, the little bit of heatshrink holding the cables together is there on both sets, the cable is dressed within the plugs in the same way and the solder and soldering look the same.
Fellow members of both HFS and AOS have been asked to add that the dreaded cable directionality may just have something to do with any difference. I don't know myself and in fact have found my own samples (including an indeterminate-age SC from 'Icehockeyboy') not to be too fussed in terms of direction, unlike other cables I've tried over the decades.
Having said the above, I'm not analysing things... I wonder if the longer, less successful set might be put for a while into a non-essential role for a few days more, just passing signal but not being intently listened to. I did this with the Klotz MC5000/MS and am much happier with them now than when I first got them :)
I could play the radio through them I guess if it is really thought that extended use will alter them.
The whole cable directionality issue did occur to me but as both ends of each cable are wired up the same (i.e. with no shield connected to ground at one end) and each channel is a separate cable, it would be very difficult to define the 'correct' direction for each channel. Frankly, my feelings are that if these cables are believed to be directional they should be marked as such (which they aren't). I would also add that, whilst I have heard cable apparently sound different depending on their direction, I've never heard the effect to be as pronounced as between these two cables!
I think the stated NVA paoition is that you can use the cable either way round but it will 'burn in' in that direction so if you thn, after a while, reverse it then it should sound different until it has burnt in in that direction too. After which presumably it does not matter which way round you use them it will sound the same both ways.
It sounds like it's finally sunk in at NVA HQ that these cables have not been altered.
I can't say that I have ever noticed them being directional. If it were me, I would change one round the other way, and see if it got any better etc. It will be quicker than letting it "burn in" again.
No, real life has been imposing itself - tomorrow perhaps.
brian2957
08-11-2014, 18:42
No, real life has been imposing itself - tomorrow perhaps.
Yes it has a habit of doing that unfortunately Mark :)
So, what is left to check then Bri - is it just the directionality issue?
brian2957
08-11-2014, 22:47
Direction of what Mark , your life ? :lol:
Every cable I build or buy has an arrow put on it to mark which direction I connect it up in my system . Just in case :eyebrows:
Sorry, perhaps we have our wires crossed :). When you write "any updates?", do you mean in general or to the SSC findings in particular (my reference to cable directionality referred to the SSC specifically)?
Ah, that was not Brian. ;)
I was just wondering if the 70cm SSC had become to sound like the 50cm SSC yet?
Ah yes, sorry Kevin. Do you think this idea of a cable 'settling in' has merit then? I don't know what I think about the idea of directionality in the first place never mind that a cable becomes directional as it is used and then realigns if it is unplugged and then reattached in the opposite direction.
walpurgis
09-11-2014, 00:26
No comment. ('cos I can't think of anything polite to say about 'cable burn in')
What next. Mains plug 'burn in'?
Maybe I'll 'demagnetise' all my cables and plugs! Just to be on the safe side. :rolleyes:
I should say that, despite what I have written about the different 'sound' of cables, I've yet to hear any evidence of cable 'burn in'. All the cables I have ever listened to sounded the same after a few weeks as they did after a few minutes.
I have to admit that I am not a believer of cable directionality (apart from when there is a shield connected at one end), or burn in.
I am open to be proved wrong though. The manufacturer of the SSC seems to think that they do burn in.
I am just not sure how mV would cause this effect.
I'll give it a go, you never know - but I can't help but feel there is an element of straw grasping going on here from the manufacturer.
brian2957
09-11-2014, 11:27
I've heard cable directionality before and cable burn-in many times ( and I have witnesses :lol: )
Doesn't really matter as it's only my opinion and I can't prove any of it except with my own lugholes . I would hate to write off a ' special ' cable before giving it a chance to settle into ( burn in :sofa: ) my system .
At lease we can have a civil discussion about it on this forum :)
I think I have heard cable directionality and burn in. Although never noticed burn in until I got these SSC. Which is not to say it could not be another factor (variable mains supply for example).The change in the character of the sound was subtle but noticeable over maybe 30 hours of use. The SSC Mark has (as I understand it) were not brand new and unused when he got them so that may be a reason why he has not noticed them to change in character.
Not good enough to say that science says cable burn in does not exist. The fact is science has never examined the alleged phenomena.
brian2957
09-11-2014, 12:09
Has Kimber / Russ Andrews investigated this ?
Yes, I also wouldn't want to be wilfully unfair - the cables are burning in as I write (attached to CD player output). As Macca says, neither of the SSC cables I've been loaned were brand new - but neither are marked with the direction they were used in either.
Has Kimber / Russ Andrews investigated this ?
It's a very long time since I tried a Kimber interconnect but I do recall that I was very disappointed by it and promptly returned it for a refund.
--------
I've just discovered that my CD player has given up its magic smoke (stopped working) so, as far as I'm concerned, that's the end of my investigations into this matter; I've already spent way more time and effort getting the SSC to perform than I have for any previous cable. My conclusion is that the shorter length works better than the (slightly) longer one but it still wouldn't be my first (or second) choice. I'll return both cables to their respective owners tomorrow.
Regarding cable directionality or burn in; my view is that if it makes as much difference as would be required in this case then something is wrong in the first place and I don't see why this particular cable should be more sensitive to these effects than any other I have ever tried.
Mark - when you listen again make sure to use the full loom - ssc from cd player to pre and from pre to power. Otherwise I don't think you will be giving it the best chance to work effectively.
As I noted before when I first tried these cables the sound was excellent except for a slight stridency in the upper mid, noticeable occasionally on some material. When I played Tom Petty's 'Full Moon Fever' it was on vocals that it was particularly apparent - and I know that is not on the recording. Over time, playing other material, I thought the effect had dissipated. Played the Petty album again to check and sure enough no stridency on the vocals. It was way to obvious to put it down to imagination so I have no doubt that something changed over that 20-30 hours.
EDIT - oh too late just seen your last post. How can you have blown up your cd player surely you never use the bloody thing? ;)
'Full loom' - are you pulling my leg? The only part of my system that uses RCA connectors is source to pre-amp so a 'full loom' is not possible (and never been necessary before). I think I've given it more than sufficient chance to work properly - it's only an interconnect, it shouldn't be so flaky you have to customise the whole system around it or offer burnt offerings to the gods etc.
I'm not really bothered about the CD player - as you say, I never use it and it mostly lives in a cupboard at the top of the stairs (I can probably fix it). I took it as a sign that enough is enough and it's time to get back to listening to some actual music - I've got two new records I haven't even removed the cellophane from yet!
To be honest, I think that what changes with cable burn in is the listener - they just forget what the previous cable sounded like and concentrate on the new; notice that cables never seem to get worse with burn in...
The stridency in the upper mid is, I think, an artefact of the mid sounding a bit exposed due to the upper and lower frequencies being curtailed - that and the slightly grainy quality it has anyway.
jandl100
09-11-2014, 13:28
Full loom.
Roy Gregory, where art though? :lol:
The stridency in the upper mid is, I think, an artefact of the mid sounding a bit exposed due to the upper and lower frequencies being curtailed - that and the slightly grainy quality it has anyway.
But how do you explain the fact that it was there when I first installed the cables and is not there now?
And no I am not pulling your leg about the full loom - that made a big difference on my system. And on Dave's (Sensei) system too. Although that could be because we use a passive pre. Even so it makes logical sense to use cables with identical characteristics both before and after the pre-amp, active or passive.
Full loom.
Roy Gregory, where art though? :lol:
Yes, Roy Gregory seems to have invented that idea; just before he gave up editing HiFi+ and went to work for Nordost as head of marketing....
Shame really as he writes very well IMO.
But how do you explain the fact that it was there when I first installed the cables and is not there now?
And no I am not pulling your leg about the full loom - that made a big difference on my system. And on Dave's (Sensei) system too. Although that could be because we use a passive pre. Even so it makes logical sense to use cables with identical characteristics both before and after the pre-amp, active or passive.
You've made other minor changes to your system, or you've just got used to it - become less sensitive to that aspect. Alternatively, you've been listening to music that highlights that aspect less.
I don't see the logic in using cables with the same 'character' throughout the system (except for the manufacturer). You don't really want any specific character to be amplified/exaggerated.
You've made other minor changes to your system, or you've just got used to it - become less sensitive to that aspect. Alternatively, you've been listening to music that highlights that aspect less.
I.
No changes were made to the system and a specific test disc (the Tom Petty album) was used. The presentation had clearly changed over 20-30 hours of use. Did you actually read my post? I can't get used to or become de-sensitised to stridency in the midrange; a major flaw like that is both always obvious and unacceptable to me.
Did you actually read my post?
Not properly apparently.
I'm at a loss to explain your finding then, I can only report my own. Perhaps this cable is unique in requiring running in (it would be the first cable I have encountered where this is required).
On the eBay sales site for the SSC the manufacturer States this about its use;
Super Sound Cord are recommended for all connections in NVA systems. Try NVA Super Sound Cords with any type of hi-fi.
There's no mention of a need to run them in, use them in a specific direction or that they should be used within the context of a 'full loom' - I used them as the manufacturer suggests.
I'm at a loss to explain your finding then, I can only report my own. Perhaps this cable is unique in requiring running in (it would be the first cable I have encountered where this is required).
.
Indeed I am at a loss which is why I suggested the reason could be cable burn in since although I have not encountered it before many others report it and some take it for granted.
My own experience, and Dave's, suggests that a full loom is essential with a passive in order to get optimum results. With an active pre it may well not be a factor at all. I've not experimented in that area.
Just fixed the CD player though - power supply board :).
My experience with passive pre-amps (which is very limited) is that you should use the shortest interconnects you possibly can.
I'm having a final listen to these cables now (the 700mm and 500mm SSC); but a 'cable loom' of SSC just isn't going to happen at my house - three power amps all with XLR inputs. However, if NVA honestly think this cable has to be used in a full loom etc. I think that should be stated in the sales description.
Cable burn-in could just be the plugs settling into their sockets - a terrible way of describing it so apologies, but whenever I've witnessed a system wiring loom that's left alone from one end of the year to the next and the plugs are all removed, cleaned (in-out-in-out :eyebrows:) and put back together, the sound is often (or appears to be) crisper for a day or two until it settles back again. Perhaps this has something to do with it all?
I didn't believe in burn-in at all until I made up both the Klotz AC110 (still a worthy wire IMO) and the MC5000. Both have a subtle but important change with use and the change is for the better IMO and they're doing perfect pre to power-amp duties in both systems :)
Cable burn-in could just be the plugs settling into their sockets - a terrible way of describing it so apologies, but whenever I've witnessed a system wiring loom that's left alone from one end of the year to the next and the plugs are all removed, cleaned (in-out-in-out :eyebrows:) and put back together, the sound is often (or appears to be) crisper for a day or two until it settles back again. Perhaps this has something to do with it all?
I didn't believe in burn-in at all until I made up both the Klotz AC110 (still a worthy wire IMO) and the MC5000. Both have a subtle but important change with use and the change is for the better IMO and they're doing perfect pre to power-amp duties in both systems :)
You are so funny
On the one hand NVA's stance is that plugs make no difference but you are suggesting that plugs 'settling in to their sockets' could.... Doesn't really stack up Dave (DSJR Dave) does it?
The sound of the MC5000 cable I've got doesn't seem to have changed at all...
I'm not an NVA shill or mouthpiece, I just make up a few things in boxes for them! I have my own opinions, funny or not, and do personally believe that fancy phono plugs are eye candy first and function second.
I'm obviously not explaining myself well at all, but how many of you have removed all the interconnects from your systems after a long time, jiggled them in and out a few times at least to 'clean' the contacts and then listened again? This can make a difference if constant cable changes aren't part of the agenda, but this difference then dissipates after a few days.
Apologies to you and Paul if my text above is 'funny' or nonsensical. I know what I'm trying to say, but sometimes have difficulty in explaining it...
. However, if NVA honestly think this cable has to be used in a full loom etc. I think that should be stated in the sales description.
That my own findings, nothing to do with what NVA say or don't say. In my system I found it best to use a full loom rather than mix and match. I found this to be true with 3 other cables I have tried recently (in addition to the SC & SSC). All interconnects were as short as practical (50 cm or less) except for the Belkin pure AV which is over a metre I think.
Well I've done my listening and said cables are now in their envelopes awaiting return postage.
To be honest, if the SSC is how 'it's' supposed to sound then pretty much everything else is wrong. It's been interesting but I don't see myself revisiting this particular cable in the near future. In fact, this whole episode has been interesting :) (bizarre even).
I'm not an NVA shill or mouthpiece, I just make up a few things in boxes for them! I have my own opinions, funny or not, and do personally believe that fancy phono plugs are eye candy first and function second.
If that's true, then why did I ‘downgrade’ from using MG2000HD cables, fitted with WBT Nextgen 0110 RCAs, costing £175 for 4 plugs, to Klotz MC5000 cables, fitted with MS Audio plugs, costing $20 for 4? ;)
The WBTs look far more like ‘eye candy’!!
Honestly, mate, sometimes you don’t half talk a load of pish :D
Marco.
If that's true, then why did I ‘downgrade’ from using MG2000HD cables, fitted with WBT Nextgen 0110 RCAs, costing £175 for 4 plugs, to Klotz MC5000 cables, fitted with MS Audio plugs, costing $20 for 4? ;)
The WBTs look far more like ‘eye candy’!!
Honestly, mate, sometimes you don’t half talk a load of pish :D
Marco.
Er, I think you are both agreeing.....
Wakefield Turntables
09-11-2014, 20:59
Here's my take on cables.
I never believed in cable directionality.
I never believed in using stupidly expensive plugs
I'm sceptical about cable burn in.
I dont worry about the above three.
I do believe in using the best conductor possible.
I do believe in using a shorter cable run as possible
I do believe in trying to shield the cable as much as possible.
I try to stick to the above three. Cables following these principles usually go into my system i.e. Yannis & MG.
I also believe that there is a complete load of shit written about cables and try and stay out of cable discussions (ok I posted here)!
Er, I think you are both agreeing.....
How so? Dave’s claiming that the use of “fancy phono plugs are eye candy first and function second”.
I’ve given a real-world example refuting that claim, as the cables I used to use were not only overall much more expensive, but featured ‘blingier’ plugs. The ones I use now are overall much cheaper and have ‘less blingy’ plugs, so why would I do that if my primary motive was to own "eye candy"?
For me, it’s very much function FIRST and "eye candy" second - and always will be! Jeez, you only have to take one look at my system to see exactly why the components it uses were chosen. "Eye candy” they are not.
Marco.
How is the Yannis comparable to the MG when judged against your own criteria?
If considering the Yannis then the 'much less blingy' plugs you refer to are vastly more 'blingy' than the ones that the SSC sport - for example. Unless you mean they aren't wrapped in carbon fibre with a diamond studded collar?
Hi Mark,
How is the Yannis comparable to the MG when judged against your own criteria?
Interesting question. I’d say that in terms of their overall construction, in respect of ‘eye candy’, they’re both similar, although subjectively the WBTs used on the MG could be said to be ‘blingier’ than the Eichmanns used on the Yannis. However, as you know, such things are of no concern to me whatsoever. All that matters is sonic performance.
If considering the Yannis then the 'much less blingy' plugs you refer to are vastly more 'blingy' than the ones that the SSC sport - for example. Unless you mean they aren't wrapped in carbon fibre with a diamond studded collar?
Sure, but why bring SSC into the equation? I don’t use it.
If I did, the first thing I’d do is upgrade the stock plugs, not out of a desire to create ‘eye candy’, but because I’m almost certain that in my system I could hear the difference between plugs that use brass conductors and ones that use solid-copper or solid-silver ones, as indeed has been the case every time in the past when I’ve conducted the test.
In that respect, SSC should be no different to any other cable I’ve used in the past that has benefited from the use of electrically superior plugs. The fact that I now use Klotz MC5000 with MS Audio plugs is ALL about sonic performance, not bling factor. Indeed, ‘blingy’ is the last thing it looks like! :)
Marco.
Fascinating that going from 500 to 700 mm length of cable would cause the changes described.
As for going "full loom", surely it is just a matter of good (scientific?) method to reduce the number of variables in a test/comparison?
Guy.
Regarding the full loom point; it doesn't really remove a variable except if one assumes that an entire loom will be used. If not it just replaces one fixed element with another different one (irrespective, they still remain fixed) - the variable (the cable under test) remains the same.
I can’t comment on anything else, as I haven’t heard what Kevin or you have, in respect of the SSC, but for me it’s always good practice to use a ‘full loom’ of cables from the same manufacturer (at least between source components, and preamp to power amp), if you want to be able to hear, and thus analyse, exactly what it is they’re doing, sonically :)
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
10-11-2014, 08:24
A full loom would include power cables.
I was referring to a full signal-carrying loom, Andy :)
Marco.
Both cables have now been posted back to their respective owners and many thanks to both gentlemen :).
Fascinating that going from 500 to 700 mm length of cable would cause the changes described.
Guy.
I did a bit more listening just before I posted the cables back to their owners. I still think the shorter cable exhibited a less pronounced character than the (marginally) longer length - but they still sounded pretty similar and quite different to the other cables I have to hand. The main conductor off the SSC consists of seven twisted steel strands, each strand us coper clad and silver plated. Steel is (very close to) ten times less electrically conductive than copper.
One of the last tracks I listened to (this time on CD) was by Moby. It starts its a single metronomic bass beat - a piano starts playing and is laid over the top (quite a lot of sustain). With the SSC (the shorter length) the bass seemed edited, it lacked weight and tonal depth - it also seemed a bit diffuse. When the piano came in it was spread across the soundstage and again lacked weight and body.
----------
Regarding 'coherent cable looms', I'm afraid I can see no logical justification for such a concept (though I can certainly see a marketing logic to it). If one makes one change to a system and compares it to another then that comparison is equally valid irrespective of the other components - they remain static.
If a cable does have a specific character, then the last thing one would want to do is spread it, amplify it, over the whole of ones system. The idea of having more of the SSC sound does not fill me with enthusiasm and certainly doesn't encourage me to seek out custom pre to power variants!
Sure, but why bring SSC into the equation? I don’t use it.
Marco.
Ah, well that's because it wasn't actually your post I was responding to I'm afraid; your post appeared whilst I was writing :).
I----------
Regarding 'coherent cable looms', I'm afraid I can see no logical justification for such a concept (though I can certainly see a marketing logic to it). If one makes one change to a system and compares it to another then that comparison is equally valid irrespective of the other components - they remain static.
If a cable does have a specific character, then the last thing one would want to do is spread it, amplify it, over the whole of ones system. The idea of having more of the SSC sound does not fill me with enthusiasm and certainly doesn't encourage me to seek out custom pre to power variants!
'If a cable does have a specific character' then I'd suggest it is not a good idea to use it in the first place. A cable that may exhibit a specific character in one system may exhibit no character, or a different character in a different system. Such is the nature of cables. If a cable exhibits no character then surely it is fine to use it in any number of suiitable applications within the system?
With regard to using the same cable from source to pre and from pre to power I will have to say again this is in reference to using a passive pre-amplifier, not an active one, and is a theory based on my own personal findings and those of others. It is not a suggestion of the manufacturer of SSC nor is it stipulated by them as being advisable or even necessary.
Regarding your first point, yes a cable should have no character of its own but if that were the case then they would all 'sound' the same. If they have no character of their own then you could use as much of it as you wanted and it wouldn't make any difference. In the case of SSC I found it to have quite a pronounced character. I can't see how using more of it would reduce that.
Regarding your second point; yes, I read that the first time you wrote it and my own comment regarding cable looms didn't refer to your post - other people have also posted regarding the benefits of 'one make cable looms' and not with respect to passive pre's.
jandl100
14-11-2014, 10:41
If a cable does have a specific character, then the last thing one would want to do is spread it, amplify it, over the whole of ones system.
Exactly my own feelings on the matter. Same goes for electronic components with a 'house sound' - too many bits of kit from the same manufacturer can be too much. :)
'If a cable does have a specific character' then I'd suggest it is not a good idea to use it in the first place.
You keep coming up with this idea, Martin. :scratch:
But they ALL have different characters.
If we were only to use perfect equipment, there would be no music played, cos there ain't no such animal. {... too many negatives there, I think. :lol:}
bronzeage
15-11-2014, 15:05
Well, to get this thread back to the actual cable it's about, I put my money where my mouth is and ordered one last Friday.
Plugged it in this morning, and from the get-go, I like what I hear - crisp, detailed sound, super control of bass, but not at all tiring to listen to. Also very impressed with the build quality.
Will update later, but looks like another cable to add to the audition list if you are in the market.
jandl100
17-11-2014, 09:51
Yep, still using mine.
Last week an audio friend came by with his expensive MIT interconnect cables with weird switch boxes in the middle. I forget the model, but they are not cheap!
He was proud of them, but the Atratus III showed them the door. :D - just so much more transparent and rhythmic, made the MITs sound slow and boring.
Ah, I didn't realise he brought the MIT cables with him when he visited you :). I subsequently had a PM from your visitor saying he had ordered an Atratus III after his visit to your abode - let us hope they impress in his system as much as they did in yours...
I think the boxes in the MIT interconnects are supposed to be about impedance matching... there's definitely an element of smoke and mirrors about the science involved though and the last time I chatted to an MIT rep he showed me a graph which had the axis' 'cost versus pleasure' - so just a fantasy marketing graph.
Ah, I didn't realise he brought the MIT cables with him when he visited you :). I subsequently had a PM from your visitor saying he had ordered an Atratus III after his visit to your abode - let us hope they impress in his system as much as they did in yours...
I think the boxes in the MIT interconnects are supposed to be about impedance matching... there's definitely an element of smoke and mirrors about the science involved though and the last time I chatted to an MIT rep he showed me a graph which had the axis' 'cost versus pleasure' - so just a fantasy marketing graph.
"Cost vs Pleasure"?????? Oh dear...
Considering their prices, I hope he also had "Cost vs moderate joy" or "cost vs barely smiling" graphs prepared...
bronzeage
17-11-2014, 12:54
I had a good long listen over the weekend to all sorts of music with the Atratus III in place, and my first impressions still stand - very clean sound, no noise and nothing to annoy. There is an nice even balance, with good detail retrieval, lyrics can be made out easily.
When I plumbed the Pluto MK1 back in though, I had quiet a shock - this is a very different kind of presentation. It was immediately noticeable how much deeper and punchier the bass was, drums became more solid, the music just sounded more 'alive'. There was a different balance, as if I had stepped forward closer to the musicians.
Just a personal preferrence really, as I could not say which is the most 'correct'. I could happily live with either. Think I will hang on to it for now, as it might change if there is such a thing as 'burn-in', and looks to be a good cable to use with nastier sources.
jandl100
17-11-2014, 12:59
Ah, I didn't realise he brought the MIT cables with him when he visited you :). I subsequently had a PM from your visitor saying he had ordered an Atratus III after his visit to your abode - let us hope they impress in his system as much as they did in yours...
Ha, no, I think he decided he didn't like them in his system, finding them harsh. But I guess if you use the MIT as your reference .... ;)
But he was kind enough to say (and post on the Wigwam) that my system was the best system he had ever heard anywhere - and that was with the Atratus III installed.
So maybe it's just a system synergy thing.
bronzeage
17-11-2014, 13:00
I had a good long listen over the weekend to all sorts of music with the Atratus III in place, and my first impressions still stand - very clean sound, no noise and nothing to annoy. There is an nice even balance, with good detail retrieval, lyrics can be made out easily.
When I plumbed Pluto MK1 back in though, I had quiet a shock - this is a very different kind of presentation. It was immediately noticeable how much deeper and punchier the bass was, drums became more solid, the music just sounded more 'alive'. There was a difference balance
Just a personal preferrence really, as I could not say which is the most 'correct'. I could happily live with either. Think I will hang on to it for now, as it might change if there is such a thing as 'burn-in', and looks to be a good cable to use with nastier sources.
Ha, no, I think he decided he didn't like them in his system, finding them harsh. But I guess if you use the MIT as your reference .... ;)
Oh, did he, he thought they were harsh! That really surprises me - I don't find them at all harsh sounding and mine isn't a 'sweet' sounding system as such. Perhaps the MIT is, as you seem to suggest, a very soft sound indeed.
RobbieGong
17-11-2014, 22:23
I had a good long listen over the weekend to all sorts of music with the Atratus III in place, and my first impressions still stand - very clean sound, no noise and nothing to annoy. There is an nice even balance, with good detail retrieval, lyrics can be made out easily.
When I plumbed the Pluto MK1 back in though, I had quiet a shock - this is a very different kind of presentation. It was immediately noticeable how much deeper and punchier the bass was, drums became more solid, the music just sounded more 'alive'. There was a different balance, as if I had stepped forward closer to the musicians.
Just a personal preferrence really, as I could not say which is the most 'correct'. I could happily live with either. Think I will hang on to it for now, as it might change if there is such a thing as 'burn-in', and looks to be a good cable to use with nastier sources.
Interesting - How bout a comparison between the Atratus III and the Mercury ? :eyebrows:
I've directly compared the Pluto Mk2 and the Atratus III and my findings were quite different to those posted by Markus (bronzeage). However, I thought the Pluto a good cable - certainly not a 'shock' difference between them.
bronzeage
18-11-2014, 10:02
I've directly compared the Pluto Mk2 and the Atratus III and my findings were quite different to those posted by Markus (bronzeage). However, I thought the Pluto a good cable - certainly not a 'shock' difference between them.
Left the CD on repeat, came home last night and .. the bass suddenly kicked into another gear. So the difference is no longer quite so shocking, it's now a matter of slightly different presentation. At this stage, percussion has more 'pop' via the Pluto, but you could happily listen via either and be very satisfied.
As for the Mercuy, I have the Venus, and that is a very different kettle of fish - it picks up a lot more detail and presents it quite differently, more textured, more transparent. Absoultely stunning on well recorded material. I would think the Mercury is along the same lines.
However, the results seem to vary between different systems and different ears. I have learned there are no absolutes in what you might prefer, all you can do is try out as many as you can muster.
However, the results seem to vary between different systems and different ears.
Everything varies between different ears ;).
jandl100
18-11-2014, 11:00
I'm a big fan of RFC Pluto (mk 1 & 2) and the Mercury mk2, fine cables all and I'd rate them in the order given. They were my cables of choice before the Atratus III came along. I didn't get on with the RFC Venus, I enjoyed its transparency but found it a bit bland dynamically. I'd say the Atratus III was about equivalent to a marriage of the Merc2 (for its dynamics) and the Venus (for its transparency).
But cable/system synergy is an art rather than a science; strange and unpredictable things to tend to happen! And personal preference is important, too, of course.
hifinutt
18-11-2014, 18:18
will they be doing an atratus 111 xlr ?
don`t want to buy a 11 if a 111 is coming out ?
But cable/system synergy is an art rather than a science; strange and unpredictable things to tend to happen!
Too right - now try drumming that into the heads of ‘objectivists’, preferably using a heavy-duty lump hammer!! ;)
Marco.
will they be doing an atratus 111 xlr ?
don`t want to buy a 11 if a 111 is coming out ?
There's already a II as well as a III (it's the III that is the subject of this thread you know). Personally I wish he had called them all different names rather than just adding Roman numerals.
brian2957
18-11-2014, 23:40
Cable overload Mark :lol:
walpurgis
18-11-2014, 23:50
Cable overload Mark :lol:
No. This is cable overload!
http://i57.tinypic.com/fax6x5.jpg
And that's just part of them!
brian2957
19-11-2014, 00:05
Jeez Geoff , you've got it bad mate :eek: Are you a secret cable shop :lol:
walpurgis
19-11-2014, 00:09
Jeez Geoff , you've got it bad mate :eek: Are you a secret cable shop :lol:
No. But I have bought quite a few and made many. :)
(I wonder if anybody can recognise any, apart from the Nordost, which are obvious)
brian2957
19-11-2014, 00:15
So have I , but I don't hold on to them . I've regretted selling a couple though so your idea might be a better one . I'm afraid I'm not a hoarder , if it doesn't get used for a year out it goes . Funnily enough the wife says that about me , so better keep busy :lol:
walpurgis
19-11-2014, 00:22
So have I , but I don't hold on to them . I've regretted selling a couple though so your idea might be a better one . I'm afraid I'm not a hoarder , if it doesn't get used for a year out it goes . Funnily enough the wife says that about me , so better keep busy :lol:
Nor am I. Just too lazy and disorganised to flog stuff on! :)
http://i57.tinypic.com/fax6x5.jpg
And that's just part of them!
Jackson Pollock would be proud of you.
Cable overload Mark :lol:
Yes, have returned all my various loaner cables now - no more cables for a while.
(I wonder if anybody can recognise any, apart from the Nordost, which are obvious)
the dark green and burgundy ones look like they may be Audioquest and the silver braid may be van Damme - presumably there is some Supra and VdH
jandl100
19-11-2014, 06:53
I've a few cables lying around, too - I tend to keep them in supermarket carrier bags, 3 bags at the moment - 1 each for RCA, XLR and power, but there's always a cable pile or two lying around on my shelves as well. :doh:
Every now & then I get exasperated and I have a clearout, but they soon re-appear. :scratch:
You sound like you are on a solo effort to keep cable making companies in business.
Jeez Geoff , you've got it bad mate :eek: Are you a secret cable shop :lol:
S’ok, they also form part of his bondage fetish! :eyebrows:
Marco.
brian2957
19-11-2014, 09:58
He must be ' fetishing ' a lot of people then :lol:
brian2957
19-11-2014, 10:00
Yes, have returned all my various loaner cables now - no more cables for a while.
Aw shucks I was going to send you down a few for your consideration :D
Funnily enough I have been offered another cable to try but i think there is a danger that interconnects are starting to take a place in my audio life that's disproportionate to their relevance :).
brian2957
19-11-2014, 10:26
Funnily enough I have been offered another cable to try but i think there is a danger that interconnects are starting to take a place in my audio life that's disproportionate to their relevance :).
Yup , sometimes it's wise to re-examine your priorities and just sit back and enjoy the music . I've always been a cable swapper , however just lately I'm beginning to get the feeling that I'm finally reaching my goal .
He must be ' fetishing ' a lot of people then :lol:
It’s a case of ‘how many different ways can I tie up my girlfriend, and spank her, using a pair of stereo interconnects’ - and which ones have the highest ’spank factor’! :D
Marco.
brian2957
19-11-2014, 11:32
Is that what he means when he says 'this is a spanking good cable ' :lol:
Yup , sometimes it's wise to re-examine your priorities and just sit back and enjoy the music . I've always been a cable swapper , however just lately I'm beginning to get the feeling that I'm finally reaching my goal .
It's funny you should say that Brian, but I think I have reached my goal.
I just want to see if a KLE Silver Harmony will make a small improvement.
I doubt it, but I have a set lying around, so I may as well try them on my cable.
My cable fiddling days will soon be over.
I very much doubt my cable exploits are over, it's just that I want to focus on other areas of audio and not get bogged down with interconnects, connectors etc. However, I would say that my attitude to the relative importance of interconnects has changed somewhat. I used to think that the choice of interconnects was very much the final polish to the completed system - of quite minor relevance. I still wouldn't place them above the choice of main components as some seem to, but I do now think cable choice can have quite a significant impact on system performance.
brian2957
19-11-2014, 14:52
I very much doubt my cable exploits are over, it's just that I want to focus on other areas of audio and not get bogged down with interconnects, connectors etc. However, I would say that my attitude to the relative importance of interconnects has changed somewhat. I used to think that the choice of interconnects was very much the final polish to the completed system - of quite minor relevance. I still wouldn't place them above the choice of main components as some seem to, but I do now think cable choice can have quite a significant impact on system performance.
Having been a cable swapper and builder for many years I totally agree with that last sentence Mark . All cables can have a marked effect on a system . I've just had an interesting session with Gary ( gazjam of this parish ) where we tried half a dozen cables , all different , but most surprisingly good. :)
It pains me to ask, but is there a suggested direction for use with this cable? Is there a "burn in" time.
I have just received my 2nd hand half metre pair, and I want to make sure it's at it's optimum before I pass comment.
Wakefield Turntables
19-11-2014, 20:16
It pains me to ask, but is there a suggested direction for use with this cable? Is there a "burn in" time.
SNAKEOIL!!! ;)
brian2957
19-11-2014, 21:05
Yeah but from which end the head or the tail . Aren't all snakes directional :D
Try it both ways Kevin , it may , or may not , sound better one way or the other .:uhho: :sofa:
It pains me to ask, but is there a suggested direction for use with this cable? Is there a "burn in" time.
I have just received my 2nd hand half metre pair, and I want to make sure it's at it's optimum before I pass comment.
There and back! :)
walpurgis
19-11-2014, 21:38
It pains me to ask, but is there a suggested direction for use with this cable? Is there a "burn in" time.
My god! Don't get them the wrong way round, the music will come out backwards :).
As for "burn in"? As long as you like. It makes no difference.
RobbieGong
19-11-2014, 22:24
It pains me to ask, but is there a suggested direction for use with this cable? Is there a "burn in" time.
I have just received my 2nd hand half metre pair, and I want to make sure it's at it's optimum before I pass comment.
Lookin forward to your comments ....
My god! Don't get them the wrong way round, the music will come out backwards :).
As for "burn in"? As long as you like. It makes no difference.
The reason I ask (as a cable direction and burn in sceptic) is that I don't think this is a cable suited to me and my system. I'll give it another listen tonight, but it just highlights the importance of synergy between boxes and cables. It looks well made.
There and back! :)
Are you implying that it does not matter?
If this is the case, why do you manufacture cables with direction markers on?
You have to keep checking directionality and burning it in until either your head cold clears or you admit defeat and decide you like it. If that doesn't work you need to sell all the rest of your system.
Wakefield Turntables
20-11-2014, 09:00
Lookin forward to your comments ....
There and back! :)
My god! Don't get them the wrong way round, the music will come out backwards :).
As for "burn in"? As long as you like. It makes no difference.
You have to keep checking directionality and burning it in until either your head cold clears or you admit defeat and decide you like it. If that doesn't work you need to sell all the rest of your system.
Nice comments:lol:
You have to keep checking directionality and burning it in until either your head cold clears or you admit defeat and decide you like it. If that doesn't work you need to sell all the rest of your system.
Did you leave the head cold germs on the SSC I lent you? :eek:
It pains me to ask, but is there a suggested direction for use with this cable? Is there a "burn in" time.
I have just received my 2nd hand half metre pair, and I want to make sure it's at it's optimum before I pass comment.
I was just going to say to use it whichever way round - if both can be the same so much the better - and then totally forget about it. Life's too short FFS!
walpurgis
21-11-2014, 00:45
I know we've been giving you a bit of a 'wind up' Kevin, but seriously, directionality and burn in are nonsense in my (humble? opinion). What can change when you use a cable? Certainly not the fixed alignment of the copper (or other metal, or even carbon) molecular crystal structure.
Audio signals reciprocate, although they are not AC as in fixed frequency mains for instance, so the cable should presumably be expected to perform equally well in both directions, so what directionality? There's none.
What about the affect of the shield only being connected at one end?
What about the affect of the shield only being connected at one end?
That will make it directional: for optimum shielding effect, the shield should be connected to the noise reference point of the source. However, depending on the earthing arrangements of the source (does it use a 2-core mains lead?), the noise reference point may not actually be at the source end, so you have to experiment. In practice it usually makes little difference, but you may find it does.
Geoff - regarding directionality and burn-in..... I've heard enough cables in my time to be able to say that many of them do have a direction, at least when they're new, and I've done this to death in many dems in my time. You have to be 'tuned in' to these kinds of differences though and it's the same with turning belts, mats and fuses around in the LP12 I remember.
The one cable that was so bad that the image shifted if one of the pair was 'wrong' was the original stiff Chord Solid when new. A female singer could perceptibly shift position between the speakers I remember, if one of the pair of cables was reversed. I don't know why, but that's what I found at the time. Nowadays, I either can't hear differences in the cables I use, or the difference is so small it really doesn't matter, especially if they're left in place for a few weeks - they settle themselves down just fine and I have far more important things to do to improve my emotional connection with the reproduced sound than worry about it.
Another one was speaker cables - QED SA is a pretty awful cable at the best of times, but running it with the writing going back to the amp could tame the edgy blandness it exhibits. Cable Talk used to reverse the return conductor in their 3.1, 4.1 and Concert 2.1 over the originals I remember and it was thought these revised conductor layouts improved things. I certainly thought there was a difference between the two 'versions.'
I know it's argued that electrons don't know what they're travelling down, but there are so many facets to domestic music reproduction, that to hobbyists, some of these things take on a very important part of this hobby.
I know we've been giving you a bit of a 'wind up' Kevin, but seriously, directionality and burn in are nonsense in my (humble? opinion). What can change when you use a cable? Certainly not the fixed alignment of the copper (or other metal, or even carbon) molecular crystal structure.
Audio signals reciprocate, although they are not AC as in fixed frequency mains for instance, so the cable should presumably be expected to perform equally well in both directions, so what directionality? There's none.
You'll have to try harder to wind me up than this. I am a non-believer when it comes to directionality if the shield is connected at both ends, or left floating (like the NVA SSC). I also don't think that mV can change a cable's chemical structure to make a difference to the way it sounds.
I had the Atratus III connected between my phono stage and headphone amp, and it didn't sounds as good as the cable I swapped out. It was a backwards step in my system.
The reason I asked the questions is that it got such a glowing review from people here I wanted to make sure I had not overlooked anything.
I have it plugged in between my preamplifier and the CD player at the moment.
The jury is still out on this one.
Ok, I admit it. I may have to believe that cable burn in is possible.
It's been left on repeat for a while and it seems to be sounding better.
brian2957
21-11-2014, 17:30
Thanks chaps I thought I was having auditory hallucinations all these years when cables started to sound different . So I'm not as barking as the wife thinks then . :lol:
Ok, I admit it. I may have to believe that cable burn in is possible.
It's been left on repeat for a while and it seems to be sounding better.
Unless you have a control sample of the same cable to hand how will you know for sure? ;)
I won't, but isn't that half the fun?
Ok, I admit it. I may have to believe that cable burn in is possible.
It's been left on repeat for a while and it seems to be sounding better.
That's it - now give it a couple hundred more hours and if it's still not working for you it's probably because you are using the 'wrong' components.
I had a brief Google episode earlier (sounds a bit concerning in a dystopian sort of way) and see that 'HiFi Pig' have reviewed this interconnect. On the whole their findings seem to closely parallel my own (I'm not sure whether that is oddly coincidental or reassuring). Their one concern (obviously there is a concern) is that the upper bass is a bit 'dry'. I guess that makes sense because I think that most systems are a bit 'lush' in this frequency range (where room gain issues are most often found). Anyway, apparently manufacturers of super expensive interconnects have inundated HIFi Pig review with cables and the Atratus compares surprisingly favourably to them...you gotta smile :).
To be fair to the HiFi Pig boys, the aspect they primarily focus on is the ability of the Atratus to, ahem, focus the sound of instruments within the soundstage and I would agree that this is one of the more striking qualities. I'm listening to the two most recent Peter Hammill albums now and the imagery on both of them is really remarkable (particularly the newest - "all that might have been" - a signed copy even :)).
I won't, but isn't that half the fun?
No, its just guess work otherwise ;)
That's it - now give it a couple hundred more hours and if it's still not working for you it's probably because you are using the 'wrong' components.
I had a brief Google episode earlier (sounds a bit concerning in a dystopian sort of way) and see that 'HiFi Pig' have reviewed this interconnect. On the whole their findings seem to closely parallel my own (I'm not sure whether that is oddly coincidental or reassuring). Their one concern (obviously there is a concern) is that the upper bass is a bit 'dry'. I guess that makes sense because I think that most systems are a bit 'lush' in this frequency range (where room gain issues are most often found). Anyway, apparently manufacturers of super expensive interconnects have inundated HIFi Pig review with cables and the Atratus compares surprisingly favourably to them...you gotta smile :).
To be fair to the HiFi Pig boys, the aspect they primarily focus on is the ability of the Atratus to, ahem, focus the sound of instruments within the soundstage and I would agree that this is one of the more striking qualities. I'm listening to the two most recent Peter Hammill albums now and the imagery on both of them is really remarkable (particularly the newest - "all that might have been" - a signed copy even :)).
Was that absolutely necessary?
I have just read the Hifipig review the same as you have but I didn't see the word "concern" being used anywhere in the reviews, all I saw was the words "a trifle dry" by one reviewer and "bass is a little dry" by the other to describe the upper bass. Nor did I see any mention of hifipig being inundated with with super expensive cables and the Atratus compares favourably to them, it says "had a plethora of interconnects pass through my system over the past couple of months" by one reviewer and "stands head and shoulders above it's immediate rivals and further beyond too" by the other. The reviews were entirely in context and concise it seems, but your somewhat egotistical comments were not needed at all.
I don't think there was any need to embellish your take on the cable, especially so when you hinted that they mirrored hifipig's findings exactly anyway.
Ah, Frank; are you still building interconnects for MCRU?
No comment is 'absolutely necessary' - all things are relative. I highlighted the area of performance the reviewers felt was less strong as well as the areas the review picked up as strengths - so both the pros and the cons - I think I was pretty fair.
But, for the record, I didn't write that the review findings mirrored my own 'exactly' and they don't - they are 'similar' though in many respects.
As for ego, the irony, I never claimed I could tell what cables were being used from outside the room - that really would be egotistical (and more than a bit silly) don't you think Frank.... ..?
Ah, Frank; are you still building interconnects for MCRU?
No comment is 'absolutely necessary' - all things are relative. I highlighted the area of performance the reviewers felt was less strong as well as the areas the review picked up as strengths - so both the pros and the cons - I think I was pretty fair.
But, for the record, I didn't write that the review findings mirrored my own 'exactly' and they don't - they are 'similar' though in many respects.
Nope, not had any contact at all from Mr MCRU, but what has that got to do with anything anyway? Childish point scoring.
Your post struck me as being rather high handed in it's tone, nothing more. I didn't like the way you said "Their one concern (obviously there is a concern)" and they apparently are inundated with super expensive cables, neither of which was factual so why say it? Just like why say about me building interconnects for MCRU when even that isn't true or indeed necessary? Perhaps it's that high handedness they didn't like on PFM and I don't find enervating either.
[QUOTE=YNWaN;598950]That's it - now give it a couple hundred more hours and if it's still not working for you it's probably because you are using the 'wrong' components.
I had a brief Google episode earlier (sounds a bit concerning in a dystopian sort of way) HOW PAINFUL THIS IS FOR YOU and see that 'HiFi Pig' have reviewed this interconnect. On the whole their findings seem to closely parallel my own (I'm not sure whether that is oddly coincidental or reassuring) NEITHER IT SHOWS YOU ARE NOT THE ONLY PERSON ON THE ENTIRE PLANET WITH HEARING. Their one concern (obviously there is a concern) NOT TRUE SO WHY WRITE THAT? is that the upper bass is a bit 'dry'. I guess that makes sense because I think that most systems are a bit 'lush' in this frequency range (where room gain issues are most often found). Anyway, apparently manufacturers of super expensive interconnects have inundated HIFi Pig review with cables WHERE DOES IT SAY THAT? and the Atratus compares surprisingly favourably to them...you gotta smile :). WHY DOES THAT AMUSE YOU?
To be fair to the HiFi Pig boys, the aspect they primarily focus on is the ability of the Atratus to, ahem, focus the sound of instruments within the soundstage and I would agree that this is one of the more striking qualities. I'm listening to the two most recent Peter Hammill albums now and the imagery on both of them is really remarkable (particularly the newest - "all that might have been" - a signed copy even :)).[/QUOTE
It wasn't your perception of the cable I had issues with, it was the tone of the post that annoyed.
I placed in capitals what was going through my mind reading your post above. It struck me as being condescending in the extreme and how "lofty" a perch you seen to think you occupy. The bitter truth is you don't, so the sooner you climb off it, the world will treat you differently.
The Hifi Pig review can be found here and it is actually well worth a read (rather well written too - it's really two separate reviews by different people):
http://hifipig.com/epiphany-acoustics-atratus-3-interconnect/
My massive head cold has cleared a bit today (proper man flu) so I'm moderately less grouchy (though that is also relative). I've just been re-reading the above review and I must admit I find myself nodding along with pretty much all of it. Now in a sense that isn't surprising because essentially it says the cable is really good and that's what I thought, but the review does make lots of specific points I agree with. The area that most gives me pause for thought though is the reviewers comments regarding the bass - which I think are very well put and rather thought provoking (for me anyway). I listened to three albums last night, the last of which was by Portishead 'Roseland NYC (Live)'* and it really struck home to me how much my own system has morphed in the last few years (I haven't listened to this record for a couple of years). In the past my system always struggled to keep the bass from this record under control (though even then the bass from my system was less 'romantic' than the majority of systems I heard) with many of the tracks sounding rather overblown. Last night the entire opposite was the case, the bass was ultra tight - probably 'dry' in the sense that the hifi Pig revirew refers to. There is quite a lot of difficult slow bass pitch variations on a number of tracks - it's like a spot tone test at different frequencies and power levels. The base on the track 'Mysterons' used to be big and punchy, now it is quite quiet and recessed within the overall mix (a very pronounced change) with the percussive elements clearly leading the track and much more delineated. Yet, on other tracks, the bass is strong, focussed, and powerfully tracking scaled bass notes well so I guess that's how Mysterons should really sound. I was so surprised by the rendition of this particular track I listened to it a number of times and the words of the Hifi Pig review circled in my mind.
*A quite remarkable record - quite unsettling; not so much chilling in a lyrical sense but more musically.
I wondering if dry bass, whilst it is less fun, is probably more accurate to what is on the recording. Although I'm not familiar with Portishead. 'The Wall' has quite a 'fruity' bass on it, perhaps you could try that if you have a copy, see if the fruitiness remains or if the interconnects are drying it out a bit?
I do own some Floyd - but oddly, not 'The Wall' - sorry :(.
I suppose what is in my mind, and what I was trying to say in rather a roundabout way, is that what the Hifi Pig guys have to say about the bass may well be true but it's difficult for me to know as that is already very much a characteristic of my system.
I mean, I listened to a system with Naim SBL's in it last week and thought the bass from those was a bit uneven and even a touch 'wooly' in parts. I think most people would class SBL's as pretty 'dry' in the bass department!
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