View Full Version : AoS ‘Scottish Mafia’ - wot’s it gonna be tomorrow……?
In all seriousness the only thing we were taught regarding Scotland when I was a kid consisted of the various royal bloodlines and how they interlinked with ours, and that really was about all we got. The rest was English history and the various big wars and battles with our European neighbours, and local history of course, a lot of that...:eyebrows:
Get that chip off your should mate:D
Dont have chip now Tony....Not allowed alas, as I used to like a Fish Supper....ah well I can smell other peoples:D (chips I mean):doh:
Unless schooling in England has changed,you were never taught about Scottish currency.
And unless Scottish notes are in your change it is highly possible you would not be aware they existed.
Unless you travelled further afield than your own doorstep! ;)
Marco.
In all seriousness the only thing we were taught about Scotland when I was a kid consisted of the various royal bloodlines and how they interlinked with ours, and that really was about all we got. The rest was English history and the various big wars and battles with our European neighbours, and local history of course, a lot of that...:eyebrows:
That’s a little insular, is it not? However, it explains plenty! ;)
Marco.
We couldn't afford a back door.
So you are saying they cheated, and doctored the vote. that is the only way they can know and be sure.
No I'm not saying that I'm saying that they know how to run a campaign like this cause they've done it before, think of house building hundreds of houses vs a one off property developer.
It's been obvious to me since at least Tuesday that it was going to be a NO vote and a large one at that cause the Media ave known the result since then, the body language is a tell tale but they've also been talking about the future after the NO vote is confirmed.
Even tonight on BBC it's bleeding obvious Ruth Davidson has a smile the width of the Clyde and yer SNP mob are sick as parrots.
I've been watching elections for about fifty years mate and this one is right up there with the two Labour victories in the early seventies and Thatcher's win in 79 and also Blair in 1997 and also Kinnock's fuck up in 1992 at Sheffield.
This referendum has been remarkable but not unique there was an 81% turnout in NI post GFA.
It was not that long ago really the Londoners thought Scots did not have running water, inside toilets and that we all went about in kilts. Most had not been past watford gap. So it is not that surprising really is it.
If that comment was serious, I’d really worry!
Marco.
Sadly the turn out rate will be back to normal next may.
This is just a one off that brings everyone out.
They weren't big on history in our school back then, in fact after my first year in 'big' school (year 7 nowadays) that was it for history, no lessons at all for the remaining four years. I had to educate myself, which was no great shakes as I enjoy reading ;)
Even tonight on BBC it's bleeding obvious Ruth Davidson has a smile the width of the Clyde and yer SNP mob are sick as parrots.
I’m not saying that you’re wrong about what the result will be, but don’t pay any bloody attention to what the BBC say, as they’re in the pockets of the current government. If you want a less biased perspective on matters, watch CH4!
Marco.
It was not that long ago really the Londoners thought Scots did not have running water, inside toilets and that we all went about in kilts. Most had not been past watford gap. So it is not that surprising really is it.
Next you will be saying you've got electric.:)
Sadly the turn out rate will be back to normal next may.
This is just a one off that brings everyone out.
The turnout is only as big as it is because of fear and the fact that the issue isn't popular if it was popular with say, 80% for and 20% no or the other way round then the turnout would be normal.
If that comment was serious, I’d really worry!
Marco.
Up until the late 50's, early 60's that would probably be an accurate representation of most southerners I am ashamed to say... :eyebrows:
Wonder when they will do voting online?
Next you will be saying you've got electric.:)
Not yet, but we hope to get connected to the grid just before the oil runs out:eyebrows:
I’m not saying that you’re wrong about what the result will be, but don’t pay any bloody attention to what the BBC say, as they’re in the pockets of the current government. If you want a less biased perspective on matters, watch Ch4!
Marco.
Marco I watch CH 4 news every night and really it's laughable to say that the BBCare in the current goverment's pocket, the Tory's hate the BBC and attack it at every turn mate as it's a soft target.
BTW, CH 4 news is really dumbed down now. it's gone all tabloid sadly.
Lot of Londoners didn't have inside bogs in the 50s and 60s
Not yet, but we hope to get connected to the grid just before the oil runs out:eyebrows:
:rfl:
Wonder when they will do voting online?
Never happen mate, maybe in local elections but not in something as important as this.
Wonder when they will do voting online?
Can't come soon enough for this government I would have thought, I'm sure they will have given GCHQ plenty of warning so they can fix the results proper like... ;)
Lot of Londoners didn't have inside bogs in the 50s and 60s
I lived in a flat in Fulham in 1988 and the bath was in the kitchen!
Lot of Londoners didn't have inside bogs in the 50s and 60s
Well, I wasn’t around in the 50s, but since 1965 I’ve always had an inside bog, and from 1968, as a three year old, had already flown to Italy for holidays with my parents! :)
Marco.
I lived in a flat in Fulham in 1988 and the bath was in the kitchen!
Nice
Really democracy could be had with online voting and big decisions,guessing that's why it will never happen
Well, I wasn’t around in the 50s, but since 1965 I’ve always had an inside bog, and from 1968, as a three year old, had already flown to Italy for holidays with my parents! :)
Marco.
Sadly we didn't have much money to travel so think yourself lucky.
Marco I watch CH 4 news every night and really it's laughable to say that the BBCare in the current goverment's pocket, the Tory's hate the BBC and attack it at every turn mate as it's a soft target.
Well, that’s your view. It isn’t mine. There is a marked difference in how news is reported on CH4, dumbed down or not, compared with how it is on the BBC, and in my view CH4 is much less biased.
Marco.
Sadly we didn't have much money to travel so think yourself lucky.
I do, but my parents worked very hard for it.
The old saying: ‘travel broadens the mind’ appears to be very true!
Marco.
I lived in the Gorbals, with my mother and three sisters, top flat in Cumberland Street, in the early sixties, it was a single end tenement flat with an outside toilet shared between three familes and no hot water in the flat.
Well, I wasn’t around in the 50s, but since 1965 I’ve always had an inside bog, and from 1968, as a three year old, had already flown to Italy for holidays with my parents! :)
Marco.
Just had a hilarious thought: Scotland secedes and six months down the line a huge spying scandal erupts involving GCHQ and Alec Salmond:
DAILY MAIL
SALMOND HAGGIS BOMB SCANDAL
The Daily Mail learnt today that the former nuclear sub base at Faslane will be the home to Scotlands first WMD, the Haggis bomb, reveals GCHQ...
:D
Whats a Bath?
It's the noise made by a sheep that has a lisp.
Well, that’s your view. It isn’t mine. There is a marked difference in how news is reported on CH4, dumbed down or not, compared with how it is on the BBC, and in my view CH4 is much less biased.
Marco.
I've watched on CH news, amongst other things, the fall of the Berlin Wall, Ceacesu (sp) being executed, both gulf wars, 911 etc etc and believe me it's not the same news channel, it's good but it's turned into the sun.
Stratmangler
18-09-2014, 23:49
so no t'internet
Typical f*cking Southern attitude and grasp of English.
Anywhere North of Watford Gap and it's all "eeh bah gum an' the like"!!!
You've even managed to f*ck up "on the internet" with some weird, distorted Southern ideas as to how we speak in the North of England.
Anyone for an independent Lancashire?
Typical f*cking Southern attitude and grasp of English.
Anywhere North of Watford Gap and it's all "eeh bah gum an' the like"!!!
You've even managed to f*ck up "on the internet" with some weird, distorted Southern ideas as to how we speak in the North of England.
Anyone for an independent Lancashire?
:lol: ;)
I've watched on CH news, amongst other things, the fall of the Berlin Wall, Ceacesu (sp) being executed, both gulf wars, 911 etc etc and believe me it's not the same news channel, it's good but it's turned into the sun.
For me, I can’t reconcile the fact that the BBC political editor, Nick Robinson is a Tory: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Robinson
...from the BBC’s reporting on politics not being influenced by Tory interests, i.e. a ‘No’ vote… ;)
Marco.
Typical f*cking Southern attitude and grasp of English.
Anywhere North of Watford Gap and it's all "eeh bah gum an' the like"!!!
You've even managed to f*ck up "on the internet" with some weird, distorted Southern ideas as to how we speak in the North of England.
Anyone for an independent Lancashire?
Used to do work for a company in Rossendale.....Did that Corrie star not come from your part of the country? Bap country
Stratmangler
18-09-2014, 23:52
:lol: ;)
:cool:
It's the noise made by a sheep that has a lisp.
Class... :rfl:
It's the noise made by a sheep that has a lisp.
LOL!!...its not the noise my brothers sheep make when I'm around :eyebrows:
For me, I can’t reconcile the fact that the BBC political editor, Nick Robinson is a Tory: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Robinson
...from the BBC’s reporting on politics not being influenced by Tory interests, i.e. a ‘No’ vote… ;)
Marco.
I've no problem with Robinson being a Tory Marco he's a brilliant journalist so what?
Bit niave I have to say if you think that the BBC aren't going to be 'sympathetic' to the Establishment, the BBC are left wing mate but they're also pragmatic and in the grand scheme of things Scotland doesn't matter what does matter is that the BBC lives to fight another day.
It's all political.
Stratmangler
19-09-2014, 00:02
Used to do work for a company in Rossendale.....Did that Corrie star not come from your part of the country? Bap country
You're thinking of Jane Horrocks, who played Bubble in AbFab.
If you're thinking of Tracy - she's from Ashton Under Lyne - I know 'cos I have worked in the same place she does.
Cissy Green's (http://www.bbc.co.uk/lancashire/food_and_drink/2004/04/01/cissy_greens_bakery.shtml) Bakery is where my lad gets a pie on the way home from school, and Holland's Pies are a mile or thereabouts up the road.
Baps?
More barmcakes around here!
I've no problem with Robinson being a Tory Marco he's a brilliant journalist so what?
Bit niave I have to say if you think that the BBC aren't going to be 'sympathetic' to the Establishment, the BBC are left wing mate but they're also pragmatic and in the grand scheme of things Scotland doesn't matter what does matter is that the BBC lives to fight another day.
It's all political.
Huv you been havin’ a wee swally, ma man? Because yer talking a right load of keech! :D
Marco.
Waiting for the result in case I have to stockpile single malt :D
You're thinking of Jane Horrocks, who played Bubble in AbFab.
If you're thinking of Tracy - she's from Ashton Under Lyne - I know 'cos I have worked in the same place she does.
Cissy Green's (http://www.bbc.co.uk/lancashire/food_and_drink/2004/04/01/cissy_greens_bakery.shtml) Bakery is where my lad gets a pie on the way home from school, and Holland's Pies are a mile or thereabouts up the road.
Baps?
More barmcakes around here!
Barmcakes, aye thats the things....The local lads used say get me a bloody Barmcake lad....WTF is a barmcake I'd say.... A big roll it turned out...aye, they were good lads though.
Jane Horrocks was the one I was thinking on....nice lass; she did a who do you think you are too. Cant remember the name of the company that I used to do work for but it was quite large, and did concrete repairs etc....sure the place was at the top of a hill..Long time ago though...Happy times.
Huv you been havin’ a wee swally, ma man? Because yer talking a right load of keech! :D
Marco.
Naw due sober mate, could be doing with a wee single malt to calm me down though:eek:
As of 05:42 it is looking as if the Scots have voted to stay in the UK with the NO campaign garnering 54% of the vote whilst the YES lobby are lagging eight points behind on 46% with six regions still to declare.
losenotaminute
19-09-2014, 04:43
BBC predicting No win by 55 to 45, Edinburgh result not yet in but they will probably be No.
This should have been a relatively easy win for the YES campaign and I feel it would have been had the campaign been more positive and better organised. As it stands this is a huge vote of no confidence in Alec Salmond and his team who, as I mentioned earlier in this thread, chose to play the 'man' rather than the 'ball', which with hindsight turned out to be a poor decision. If they had properly structured their strategic roadmap for an independent Scotland instead of wasting time and resources attacking the NO lobby they may well have swung the vote in their favour tonight. Instead they decided to wing it on policy, seemingly hoping voters would not ask the awkward technical questions they clearly had no answers for.
brian2957
19-09-2014, 05:20
Just glad its all over.
Salmond stirring it! The man is a dangerous prick!
This should have been a relatively easy win for the YES campaign and I feel it would have been had the campaign been more positive and better organised. As it stands this is a huge vote of no confidence in Alec Salmond and his team who, as I mentioned earlier in this thread, chose to play the 'man' rather than the 'ball', which with hindsight turned out to be a poor decision. If they had properly structured their strategic roadmap for an independent Scotland instead of wasting time and resources attacking the NO lobby they may well have swung the vote in their favour tonight. Instead they decided to wing it on policy, seemingly hoping voters would not ask the awkward technical questions they clearly had no answers for.
It's not over by a long way Brian, I've just watched Samond stiring it and 'demanding' action on Devomax.
Just glad its all over.
Oldpinkman
19-09-2014, 05:36
"Bother" - said winnie the pooh.
No surprise - the Scots are not daft however much noise some of them make. Depressingly predictable result, it will just leave salmond and the malcontent rumbling on. So unfair the English didn't get to vote about it! :(
jandl100
19-09-2014, 05:54
So it's no then. I think there will be BIG changes nonetheless, and not just for Scotland - you could well end up with a decent approximation to Devo-Max I reckon, with hopefully more regions not just the Scots getting more say in their own local governments. Which will be a good thing, imo.
Some of the Tory backbenchers (and not just the backbenchers) will fight it tooth and nail, mind, they want to keep their hands on the wheel as much as possible.
Interesting times ahead.
So it's no then.
Interesting times ahead.
The Chinese have a curse they hurl at those they seriously fall out with: "May you live in interesting times". More interesting perhaps for Alex 'Wallace' Salmond and his supporters than most perhaps.
This where we find out whether the Scottish electorate (and the others who stand defeated by this result) is as mature and sophisticated as the media have recently been portraying it - I suspect not but sincerely hope I'm wrong.
Dave.
Ali Tait
19-09-2014, 07:09
Yes Dave, we're all just a bunch of nutters up here. :rolleyes::rolleyes:
The Black Adder
19-09-2014, 07:17
I really do hope that there will be changes for Scotland and hope it's not all hot air from the wankers at Westminster.
walpurgis
19-09-2014, 07:23
I'm not saying anything. No matter what is said, it'll piss somebody off. :eek:
jandl100
19-09-2014, 07:28
I'm not saying anything. No matter what is said, it'll piss somebody off. :eek:
Ooo - that sort of prevarication really pisses me off. :steam:
:D
StanleyB
19-09-2014, 07:29
I really do hope that there will be changes for Scotland and hope it's not all hot air from the wankers at Westminster.
Well, I for one won't go along with any changes that favours Scotland ahead of Wales, England, and Northern Ireland, who are also part of the Union. Only 1.61 million UK citizens voted YES. That's a mere fraction of the total UK population.
jandl100
19-09-2014, 07:42
Tory backbenchers, who have already demanded an English Parliament, rallied behind Ms Perry. Anne-Marie Morris, MP for Newton Abbot, said the “devo max” policy was “not thought through” and many of her constituents felt it was unfair.
James Gray, MP for North Wiltshire, said: “Talk about feeding an addiction. The more you give them, the more they want, and we would be back with calls for independence within a decade or sooner.” He added: “For too long the rights of 55m English have been subordinated to the shouting of 4.5m Scots. That must end."
Whoa, that's tellin' 'em! :D
Interesting time ahead, indeed.
Cameron has his hands full for a while, but he's still got his job. I reckon he'd have been out on his ear if the Yes vote had won.
That would have been a definite benefit of a Yes win, in my view, as the guy is a nasty self-serving tit of the first order, imo.
Oldpinkman
19-09-2014, 07:57
Cameron has his hands full for a while, but he's still got his job. I reckon he'd have been out on his ear if the Yes vote had won.
He wouldn't have been out on his ear, because his party would have had no serious opposition once the scottish labour MP's constituencies were removed from the electorate.
And as I noted above with my reference to "booting out" the Scots - to give it a more politically acceptable spin, a lot of English people would vote for an independent England given the chance - although with the reservation we might suffer the same EU fate as an independent Scotland. The problem we have is that we are one nation made of at least 3 nations - but 2 of the nations utterly disregard the 3rd (England) because it is viewed as the controller. It's not like we have a federal system as in the USA. Nor is it a regional development issue. It becomes nationalist - almost racist - as the persecuted minorities (sic) position themselves as racial scapegoats by emphasising their desire to be racially/nationally different.
The poll tax affected all Britons. Nuclear submarines and missiles affected many places in Britain. Greenham Common didnt strike out for nationalist independance from the UK because Britain had nuclear weapons there. But Marco's earlier comment made Britains combined nuclear policy a Scots racist point.
Either we need to be one nation - or 3 nations. This idea that we're all British except the Scots and Welsh are allowed to have their own nationality too is manifestly unfair and divisive. When we play an international football match, the Welsh have a welsh anthem, the Scots a Scots anthem, and we sing about God saving the Queen of Scotland.
Very confused. Very prejudicial to the English.
A pity Salmond screwed up so badly - but he was all sentiment and nationalist aggression, and no policy, rationality or common sense. Never mind Conservative back-benchers - watch out for the rise of the English Democrats
Bother!
Gordon Steadman
19-09-2014, 07:58
as the guy is a nasty self-serving tit of the first order, imo.
Can you point me towards a politician that isn't? Politics is for those that can't get a proper job:rolleyes:
I'm happy as my pension will not go down this month/year whatever. I'm selfish and self serving enough to now put that ahead of other's self determination:ner:
jandl100
19-09-2014, 08:01
It's quiet from the Scottish Mafia - I bet they're all drowning their sorrows with Highland's Finest. :drunk:
The Chinese have a curse they hurl at those they seriously fall out with: "May you live in interesting times". More interesting perhaps for Alex 'Wallace' Salmond and his supporters than most perhaps.
So are you saying that’s the message you’re sending out to the Scottish people, Dave? Incidentally, for the record, I’m a supporter of Scottish Independence, not necessarily of Alex Salmond.
As has been said, a predictable result, but at least the Scotland gave it a go, and so we’ll see now what changes come from this. This is not over.
Marco.
Ali Tait
19-09-2014, 08:05
Half of us will be anyway..
Still, can't argue with the turnout. The people have spoken.
Tory backbenchers, who have already demanded an English Parliament, rallied behind Ms Perry. Anne-Marie Morris, MP for Newton Abbot, said the “devo max” policy was “not thought through” and many of her constituents felt it was unfair.
James Gray, MP for North Wiltshire, said: “Talk about feeding an addiction. The more you give them, the more they want, and we would be back with calls for independence within a decade or sooner.” He added: “For too long the rights of 55m English have been subordinated to the shouting of 4.5m Scots. That must end."
There, in all it’s glory, is precisely the anti-Scottish sentiment in Westminster I referred to earlier. And you wonder why there is resentment?? :rolleyes:
Just because there are more English than Scottish people living in the UK doesn’t mean that the Scots should simply sit back and tolerate being oppressed by Westminster, or fight for equality, and a fairer, more democratic political system for Scotland.
It’s only natural for people to fight for what is rightly theirs - and that will continue!
Marco.
jandl100
19-09-2014, 08:22
I agree that centralised rule of diverse regions is often unfair - it's the same all over the world, just look at Ukraine at the moment :( - but "fair" is often in the eyes of the beholder and their own self interests.
I hope that something genuinely positive will come out of this and the Scots (and Wales, and Yorkshire and Cornwall .... etc etc) will be more masters of their own destiny than is the case at the moment. It certainly looks promising.
Ali Tait
19-09-2014, 08:24
Here's hoping Jerry.
Oldpinkman
19-09-2014, 08:25
There, in all it’s glory, is precisely the anti-Scottish sentiment in Westminster I referred to earlier. And you wonder why there is resentment?? :rolleyes:
Just because there are more English than Scottish people living in the UK doesn’t mean that the Scots should simply sit back and tolerate being oppressed by Westminster, or fight for equality, and a fairer, more democratic political system for Scotland.
It’s only natural for people to fight for what is rightly theirs - and that will continue!
Marco.
Like I said before - more power to their elbow, because I would vote for English independence. However, actually I think "carrying on" will be wearing and divisive. If the vote is "NO" to independence, then for a good long time, the emphasis should be on unification and one nation - not national diversity and divisiveness. It will only cause more of this
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-2759548/UK-travel-Scotland-29-country-votes-independence.html (Not that I read the Daily Mail comic - I read it on Bloomberg but can't find the reference with a 2 minute google search. Same basic story - different source)
;)
Spectral Morn
19-09-2014, 08:30
I experience it almost every time I leave Scotland, with Scottish banknotes, and try and use them in England. It’s ignorant bollocks, and really rather insulting.
Marco.
Same with any notes issued in Northern Ireland, despite it saying sterling on the note but I have had that problem in Scotland too not just the south, so I only carry Bank of England notes when in the UK mainland.
Regards Neil
I agree that centralised rule of diverse regions is often unfair - it's the same all over the world, just look at Ukraine at the moment :( - but "fair" is often in the eyes of the beholder and their own self interests.
I completely agree, Jerry, but its the sheer arrogance and condescending nature of the statements you quoted that gets the backs up of the Scots. Whether it’s true or not about the majority of English people (and I don’t necessarily agree), do you realise that the English are perceived all over the world as a rather arrogant race?
I’m talking here about perception, not necessarily reality. That’s not something I would be proud of, and statements, such as those you’ve highlighted, only serve to cause resentment and reinforce that perception, strengthening the north/south divide, precisely the opposite of creating unity! :doh:
I hope that something genuinely positive will come out of this and the Scots (and Wales, and Yorkshire and Cornwall .... etc etc) will be more masters of their own destiny than is the case at the moment. It certainly looks promising.
I do agree. As Ali said, the people have spoken, and that’s fine, but realise that they will always have a voice and will fight for what they believe in. The issue of Scottish independence may be on the back burner for now, but it will never go away, as the Scots will continue to fight for equality…..
Marco.
jandl100
19-09-2014, 08:37
...do you realise that the English are perceived all over the world as a rather arrogant race?
And quite rightly so, we are!
In our subconscious we are still undisputed rulers of a globe-spanning and often unpleasant and tyrannical empire, even though that vanished many many years ago.
Marco, there are nationalities perceived as much more arrogant than the English. French and Germans for a start. You could use stereotypes, if so then Scots would be perceived as drunks but is this helpful? No.
Pandora's Box is now open. It's going to be very interesting.
I completely agree, Jerry, but its the sheer arrogance and condescending nature of the statements you quoted that gets the backs up of the Scots. Whether it’s true or not about the majority (and I don’t necessarily agree), do you realise that the English are perceived all over the world as a rather arrogant race?
.
Again - English is not a race it is just a nationality! And it isn't true that we are perceived as arrogant 'all over the world'. Maybe by some on the Continent and particularly France but then we have saved their sorry arses so many times now it is only to be expected that they feel a bit inferior. :)
Lol - glad you realise it! ;)
It certainly doesn’t help though in creating unity, but rather simply furthers the north/south divide…. Is that what English people want?
Marco.
Spectral Morn
19-09-2014, 08:41
Well done Scotland for voting in such numbers for something so important, shame on the 15% who could not be bothered. A fantastic result game changing I think and only 6% off a majority albeit a small one - that sends a very clear message.
However I am glad Scotland hasn't left as frankly I think it would have damaged the UK very badly but I can understand why the Scots wanted free. Hopefully this massive scare will change how Parliament runs, Cameron says it will, lets see if he is a man of his word. On the face of it things for Wales, and Ulster will now also improve.
Regards Neil
Again - English is not a race it is just a nationality! And it isn't true that we are perceived as arrogant 'all over the world'. Maybe by some on the Continent and particularly France but then we have saved their sorry arses so many times now it is only to be expected that they feel a bit inferior. :)
Well, Martin, I can only tell it as I experience it, whenever I travel abroad, and not only listen to the views of locals, but observe the behaviour of the English. However, it’s largely a perception thing, as I don’t believe that is true of the majority of people of that nationality ;)
Do you think statements like that from Westminster, such as those highlighted by Jerry, help in diluting that impression?
Marco.
...shame on the 15% who could not be bothered.
Perhaps they were ill, or away in Austria last night watching Celtic play FC Salzburg? ;)
Marco.
Marco, there are nationalities perceived as much more arrogant than the English. French and Germans for a start. You could use stereotypes, if so then Scots would be perceived as drunks but is this helpful? No.
I’m not talking about stereotypes, Clive, but real-world examples, from listening to the views of locals, during travelling extensively in Europe.
Marco.
Well, Martin, I can only tell it as I experience it, whenever I travel abroad, and not only listen to the views of locals, but observe the behaviour of the English. However, it’s largely a perception thing, as I don’t believe that is true of the majority of people of that nationality ;)
Marco.
Yes and you take all you holidays on the Continent. Try the New World for a change ;) You get a lot of riff-raff English on the Continent because it is close and cheap to travel there. In the United States we get mistaken for Australians by the yanks. Last time I was there I had to explain I was English not Australian. 'But you say 'mate' - that's Australian,' says one of them. I had to explain that most Australians are descended from English because they were shipped out there as convicts or settlers. This raised eyebrows so I had to go on to give a potted history of Australia. This was all new to them, they genuinally thought that Australians were native to that continent and had developed their nation in complete isolation...
That’s cool, and also true, although where we go there are rarely any riffraff. The hotels we stay in and restaurants where we eat, if visited by the English, they are usually the middle-classes.
However, I see you avoided answering my question about the comments from Westminster…..
Also did you watch that video I asked you to watch?
Marco.
jandl100
19-09-2014, 08:58
Ah, well, Americans! :doh: :lol:
jandl100
19-09-2014, 09:00
Whoops - Cameron's been laying out an English Parliament agenda already this morning.
That'll scupper Labour's hopes of achieving government, which is not a good thing if you are a democrat, regardless of which party you support.
________________
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/scottish-independence/scottish-independence-referendum-results-cameron-pledges-draft-laws-on-new-powers-for-scotland-will-be-published-by-january-9742831.html
"In a remarkable statement in wake of this morning’s referendum result Mr Cameron said the question of “English votes for English laws” now required a “decisive answer” and promised a detailed plan by January.
He announced that in future English MPs should vote “separately” on issues of tax, spending and welfare – areas of power that are due to be devolved to Holyrood.
This could mean that even if Labour win the next election in future they may not have a majority of English MPs to enact the plans in their manifesto.
Mr Cameron said the plans to introduce this new system would take place “in tandem with, and at the same pace as, the settlement for Scotland”.
I’m not talking about stereotypes, Clive, but real-world examples, from listening to the views of locals, during travelling extensively in Europe.
Marco.
Marco, all nationalities have a total spectrum of types. Drawing any general conclusions is massively open to error and influence by your preconceptions. Wow I'm sounding like an objectivist.
Oldpinkman
19-09-2014, 09:14
There is a compelling logic to it Jerry. We can't be Scots, Welsh, and Britains - if we are going to distinguish Scotland and Wales IN the union, we need to recognise the other lot as ENGLAND.:)
Oldpinkman
19-09-2014, 09:17
Again - English is not a race it is just a nationality! And it isn't true that we are perceived as arrogant 'all over the world'. Maybe by some on the Continent and particularly France but then we have saved their sorry arses so many times now it is only to be expected that they feel a bit inferior. :)
Italians have an interesting set of reputations - I'm not sure many women view them as modest and self-deprecating ;)
Marco, all nationalities have a total spectrum of types. Drawing any general conclusions is massively open to error and influence by your preconceptions.
Absolutely true, but it’s simply human nature to form opinions, based on our experiences. Whether those experiences are ‘accurate' of the reality, the perception remains the same, and that’s not a perception I’d like attached to my nationality. One thing you can’t say about the Scots is that they’re arrogant! ;)
Anyway, leaving aside my experiences of English arrogance in Europe, let’s deal with a real-world example of such from Westminster:
James Gray, MP for North Wiltshire, said: “Talk about feeding an addiction. The more you give them, the more they want, and we would be back with calls for independence within a decade or sooner.” He added: “For too long the rights of 55m English have been subordinated to the shouting of 4.5m Scots. That must end.”
Essentially, the condescending twit wants to keep us ‘in our place’.
Now while the title I’ve given above is a piss take, you cannot argue that what James Gray has said is not only anti-Scottish and divisive, but arrogant in the extreme, and he’s English (and very likely not alone in that view), so there, what more proof do you need!
:ner:
;)
Marco.
So are you saying that’s the message you’re sending out to the Scottish people, Dave? Incidentally, for the record, I’m a supporter of Scottish Independence, not necessarily of Alex Salmond.
This is not over.
Marco.
If that remark is addressed to this 'Dave', where do you get that idea from Marco? - beyond me!! I'm sending no message to no body, I'm just adding to/responding to Jerry's (jandl100) comment about interesting times ahead.
And, for the benefit of all concerned, it had better be over, at least for the foreseeable future, Are you advocating some sort of reason to justify the thought that the result is not conclusive?
Dave.
jandl100
19-09-2014, 09:23
There is a compelling logic to it Jerry. We can't be Scots, Welsh, and Britains - if we are going to distinguish Scotland and Wales IN the union, we need to recognise the other lot as ENGLAND.:)
Yes, I know.
It's difficult, innit! :scratch: :)
Trouble is, I don't trust Cameron to come up with a fair "federal UK" system. :(
It really needs to be sorted independent from party politics, and he's not that sort of guy, I fear.
Ali Tait
19-09-2014, 09:24
There is a compelling logic to it Jerry. We can't be Scots, Welsh, and Britains - if we are going to distinguish Scotland and Wales IN the union, we need to recognise the other lot as ENGLAND.:)
There ain't just one England though, you'd have a North / South divide at least.
Italians have an interesting set of reputations - I'm not sure many women view them as modest and self-deprecating ;)
Lol - it depends where you go in Italy, as depending on the region, the people are very different. Italy is also a very divided country, probably much more so than the UK!
Marco.
If that remark is addressed to this 'Dave', where do you get that idea from Marco? - beyond me!! I'm sending no message to no body, I'm just adding to/responding to Jerry's (jandl100) comment about interesting times ahead.
What you quoted (from the Chinese or whatever it was), and the way you posted it, came across as you were using it to reflect your own feelings, in the aftermath of Scotland not being granted Independence.
However, if you’re saying that’s not the case, then I accept that :)
And, for the benefit of all concerned, it had better be over, at least for the foreseeable future, Are you advocating some sort of reason to justify the thought that the result is not conclusive?
Not at all. I’m simply saying that Scottish people wanting independence will never go away, especially now that they’ve had a real taste of fighting for it. The desire will simply grow stronger and stronger until it happens.
15 or 20 years ago, who’d have thought Scottish people would’ve been voting for what they were last night? Trust me, this is only the taste of things to come, although it is likely that none of us here will experience whatever that is in our lifetime.
Marco.
Ali Tait
19-09-2014, 09:37
I think it will be a seed for change, perhaps a devolution of power to more regional bodies, who can better represent those who have voted them in.
That’s cool, and also true, although where we go there are rarely any riffraff. The hotels we stay in and restaurants where we eat, if visited by the English, they are usually the middle-classes.
However, I see you avoided answering my question about the comments from Westminster…..
Also did you watch that video I asked you to watch?
Marco.
Which video? Backdoor Sluts Nine or the one about the Scottish economy? ;) If you meant the Economics one then yes I have watched it. Very disingenuous since it is entirely based on GDP figures and GDP figures include public spending. Using a similar method I could make a convincing economic case for the independence of Staffordshire.
As for the Westminster comments regardless of how it is expressed I don't think we can get away from the fact that Scottish MPs can vote on all English matters but English MPs cannot vote on most of the Scottish affairs. This effectively means that England gets socialism from all parties despite the majority in England not wanting it. Tail wagging the dog, if you like. Now the Jocks have decided to stay with the rest of us that issue needs to be addressed.
If you meant the Economics one then yes I have watched it. Very disingenuous since it is entirely based on GDP figures and GDP figures include public spending. Using a similar method I could make a convincing economic case for the independence of Staffordshire.
Well that’s one way of looking at it, I guess…. I’m afraid that I disagree. However, Backdoor Sluts Nine sounds intriguing.
As for the Westminster comments regardless of how it is expressed I don't think we can get away from the fact that Scottish MPs can vote on all English matters but English MPs cannot vote on most of the Scottish affairs. This effectively means that England gets socialism from all parties despite the majority in England not wanting it. Tail wagging the dog...
Oh, boo-boo! You surely can't seriously be claiming injustice for England, after all the injustice Scotland has had to put up with for YEARS from Westminster? If so, it’s about time you had a taste of some of your own medicine…. ;)
Marco.
Was just shown a video of a no table in Clackmannan that had bundles of yes votes on it and another one where a guy was clearly altering votes. Has there been dirty dealings? Surely not
I was right, it was close, and in reality perhaps closer still
Post the video here, Grant, if you can.
Marco.
Alas I don't have it at moment as it was on his phone. I'll send him a message and see where he got it
Oh, boo-boo! You surely can't seriously be claiming injustice for England, after all the injustice Scotland has had to put up with for YEARS from Westminster? If so, it’s about time you had a taste of some of your own medicine…. ;)
Marco.
Other than having the Council Tax tested on them (which was 30 odd years ago and the English got it too a couple of years later) exactly what are all these 'injustices' the Scots have had to endure? I'm racking my brains...
Cool… Sounds like corruption again, as is a par for the course in politics, which is why I usually steer well clear of it! It just happens that this particular issue is very close to my heart.
Marco.
Other than having the Council Tax tested on them (which was 30 odd years ago and the English got it too a couple of years later) exactly what are all these 'injustices' the Scots have had to endure? I'm racking my brains...
Having to make their MPs travel to London to vote on non-Scottish tuition fees so I end up paying an additional £48,000 to educate my two kids. Grrr
Other than having the Council Tax tested on them (which was 30 odd years ago and the English got it too a couple of years later) exactly what are all these 'injustices' the Scots have had to endure? I'm racking my brains...
That’s because you’ve not lived up in Scotland and had to endure the effect of some of the (English) government policies. How about about having nuclear subs parked on your back door, and so if there is another world war, the enemy sees you are the target No1 for obliteration?
I’d argue that that’s mildly inconvenient.
Marco.
That’s because you’ve not lived up in Scotland and had to endure the effect of some of the (English) government policies. How about about having nuclear subs parked on your back door, and so if there is another world war, the enemy sees you are the target No1 for obliteration?
I’d argue that that’s mildly inconvenient.
Marco.
The point about nuclear subs is that they are out on patrol. In a time of tension the subs won't be there.
Spectral Morn
19-09-2014, 10:17
There is a compelling logic to it Jerry. We can't be Scots, Welsh, and Britains - if we are going to distinguish Scotland and Wales IN the union, we need to recognise the other lot as ENGLAND.:)
and Northern Ireland
That’s because you’ve not lived up in Scotland and had to endure the effect of some of the (English) government policies. How about about having nuclear subs parked on your back door, and so if there is another world war, the enemy sees you are the target No1 for obliteration?
I’d argue that that’s mildly inconvenient.
Marco.
Seriously? How much revenue do you think it generates for the local economy in that part of Scotland? Ask the locals if they would like to see the submarine base closed down. As for being a target, well I'm afraid that in the event of a nuclear war we would all be screwed whether you lived close to a primary target or not. Growing up in Liverpool I was about 10 miles from two first strike targets, Burtonwood air force base and Seaforth container base. I managed to not let it ruin my life.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7TlbjtHKXBY#
Spectral Morn
19-09-2014, 10:20
Was just shown a video of a no table in Clackmannan that had bundles of yes votes on it and another one where a guy was clearly altering votes. Has there been dirty dealings? Surely not
I was right, it was close, and in reality perhaps closer still
If that is genuine then it needs to be sent to the electoral commission and the parties involved.
Edit..... not good - just saw the clip Grant
Regards Neil
jandl100
19-09-2014, 10:21
Personally, in the event of nuclear war I think I'd rather be at Ground Zero. ;)
Irregularities in Glasgow too. People couldn't vote because others had already voted in their place.
Oldpinkman
19-09-2014, 10:24
and Northern Ireland
Ah - yes, good point, but what a way to emphasise how complicated these things get. I'll stay right out of Irish politics - but I've had a taste of life in "the province" before and after the troubles. I only hope any proper recognition of nation doesn't slide back to the old days. I recall driving through the machine gun nests on the border to go from Newtownards to Dublin on an IT project long ago. And the happier days 4 years ago of whizzing from the church service in Co Down, to the reception south of the border, for my friends wedding, where the only thing we had to worry about was euro's or pounds and miles or kilometers. Lets hope the new Ireland can prevail
This has just aired on New Zealand Television. http://www.tv3.co.nz/7-DAYS-Season-6-Ep-22/tabid/3692/articleID/102963/MCat/2901/Default.aspx It is a satirical program that focuses on current affairs. Go to about 14:20 minutes in and a former Labour Party Leader sings about the Scottish election to the tune of Hotel California.
The reason the YES campaign didn't have answers to their questions regarding currency, military intelligence, armed forces, welfare etc. is because there weren't any. If there was a solid argument they would have been all over it. Hopefully this will trigger further devolution and the chance for England to devolve whilst keeping the UK.
Seriously? How much revenue do you think it generates for the local economy in that part of Scotland? Ask the locals if they would like to see the submarine base closed down.
Well, removing Trident submarines from Scottish shores was a major driving force behind those who voted ‘Yes’ yesterday for Independence. Therefore, add up how many that was from the stats, and you’ll get a good idea of how many people in Scotland feel strongly about it!
As for being a target, well I'm afraid that in the event of a nuclear war we would all be screwed whether you lived close to a primary target or not. Growing up in Liverpool I was about 10 miles from two first strike targets, Burtonwood air force base and Seaforth container base. I managed to not let it ruin my life.
Sure, but that doesn’t make it right. The question is, why weren’t the subs parked somewhere in England, in the first place, instead of in Scotland? The majority of Scottish people aren’t interested in participating in the wars that Britain wants to fight with America, yet they get landed with housing the biggest threat to their safety in the event of a world war or a possible terrorist attack. Is that fair?
Marco.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7TlbjtHKXBY#
Jeezuz! :eek:
If that’s genuine, it's either corruption or sheer idiocy. One of the other - and neither is acceptable! A full enquiry into this (possible) shambles must be entered into immediately.
Marco.
Well, removing Trident submarines from Scottish shores was a major driving force behind those who voted ‘Yes’ yesterday for Independence. Therefore, add up how many that was from the stats, and you’ll get a good idea of how many people in Scotland feel strongly about it!
Sure, but that doesn’t make it right. The question is, why weren’t the subs parked somewhere in England, in the first place, instead of in Scotland? The majority of Scottish people aren’t interested in participating in the wars that Britain wants to fight with America, yet they get landed with housing the biggest threat to their safety in the event of a world war or a possible terrorist attack. Is that fair?
Marco.
People do feel strongly about it I agree but only out of ignorance. It's the whole 'weapons are bad, war is bad, if we had no weapons there would be no wars' thing. It's facile and it's naïve. The base is there and not somewhere else for strategic reasons, not to piss off the Scots. There are nuclear armed ships based in English ports, there are nuclear weapons on English soil, there are aircraft that can deliver nuclear weapons based in England.
No-one wants to fight a war. It is expensive and it is unpopular. The idea that Iraq and Afghanistan were/are just foreign adventures that we are involved in for the fun of it or because we are bad people is again facile. Scotland benefits from the suppression of radical Islam and the security of global oil reserves just the same as the rest of the world does. What sort of Scotsman wants someone else to do his fighting for him?
I think it’s best we don’t go there, mate, as quite clearly, we fundamentally disagree!
Marco.
I think it’s best we don’t go there, mate, as quite clearly, we fundamentally disagree!
Marco.
Clearly we do and nothing wrong with that. :)
I'm off to Liverpool now to campaign for Scouse independence ;)
Spectral Morn
19-09-2014, 11:07
Ah - yes, good point, but what a way to emphasise how complicated these things get. I'll stay right out of Irish politics - but I've had a taste of life in "the province" before and after the troubles. I only hope any proper recognition of nation doesn't slide back to the old days. I recall driving through the machine gun nests on the border to go from Newtownards to Dublin on an IT project long ago. And the happier days 4 years ago of whizzing from the church service in Co Down, to the reception south of the border, for my friends wedding, where the only thing we had to worry about was euro's or pounds and miles or kilometers. Lets hope the new Ireland can prevail
The border was indeed a very scary place. Thankfully things are much better these days but I guess I feel its a bit like a dormant volcano nice and peaceful on the surface at the minute but could blow at any time.
Regards Neil
Spectral Morn
19-09-2014, 11:08
Jeezuz! :eek:
If that’s genuine, it's either corruption or sheer idiocy. One of the other - and neither is acceptable! A full enquiry into this (possible) shambles must be entered into immediately.
Marco.
I just passed the link onto the SNP this needs investigated.
Regards Neil
I'm off to Liverpool now to campaign for Scouse independence...
Sounds good to me! I love Liverpool almost as much as I do Glasgow.
Del and I are too, soon - off to Chinatown for lunch (at Mei Mei), when she gets back from work in about an hour. After that, I’ll be going to Probe to buy some new vinyl, whilst Del does some shopping in Liverpool One (she has a rather unhealthy penchant for products from L'Occitane en Provence) :rolleyes:
Aye, it’s a hard life here in North Wales! ;)
Marco.
I just passed the link onto the SNP this needs investigated.
Nice one, Neil.
Marco.
Spectral Morn
19-09-2014, 11:20
Nice one, Neil.
Marco.
They probably know already, but one should try not to assume.
Ali Tait
19-09-2014, 11:27
You may have just single-handedly saved Scottish independence Neil. :eek:
Oldpinkman
19-09-2014, 11:33
Clearly we do and nothing wrong with that. :)
I'm off to Liverpool now to campaign for Scouse independence ;)
If their national side is going to play like it did against Villa they can have it ;)
Oldpinkman
19-09-2014, 11:36
You may have just single-handedly saved Scottish independence Neil. :eek:
I do hope so. It would make the whole English devolution thing so much more straightforward if the Scottish Labour MP's just weren't there any more
Ali Tait
19-09-2014, 11:37
Yep, more home rule, that's what I say!
Lol - it depends where you go in Italy, as depending on the region, the people are very different. Italy is also a very divided country, probably much more so than the UK!
Marco.
So Marco, tell me this because enquiring minds need to know: When does pride in your country of origin become 'arrogance' exactly??? I'm sorry, can't quite hear you???
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7TlbjtHKXBY#
C'mon, get real!!! just what the hell does that prove? The visible (top) ballot papers are clearly marked as 'Yes' and had been 'parked' on the 'No' table. If real jiggery-pokery was afoot - and it may well have been in some areas, who knows? - surely at least the top paper of each pile would have been a 'No'. This strikes me as a non-story that may well be 'whipped up' by those who do not want to accept the decision.
The electorate in Scotland have been universally (and correctly, IMO, note Ali ;) ) praised as being mature and sophisticated, surely no one involved in counting the vote are either going to risk their fraud being so easily exposed or start a false alarm regarding the counting.
Dave.
Spectral Morn
19-09-2014, 11:43
You may have just single-handedly saved Scottish independence Neil. :eek:
Doubt it. I don't want Scotland to leave the UK (I think it would affect us all in very serious ways, no one would be better off), but voting irregularities is a very serious matter so best report it and let the SNP investigate this apparent issue broadcast on Sky News.
If I get a reply from the SNP I will report it here.
Regards Neil
Spectral Morn
19-09-2014, 11:45
C'mon, get real!!! just what the hell does that prove? The visible (top) ballot papers are clearly marked as 'Yes' and had been 'parked' on the 'No' table. If real jiggery-pokery was afoot - and it may well have been in some areas, who knows? - surely at least the top paper of each pile would have been a 'No'. This strikes me as a non-story that may well be 'whipped up' by those who do not want to accept the decision.
The electorate in Scotland have been universally (and correctly, IMO, note Ali ;) ) praised as being mature and sophisticated, surely no one involved in counting the vote are either going to risk their fraud being so easily exposed or start a false alarm regarding the counting.
Dave.
Dave regardless and you may be right it needs investigated.
Regards Neil
Ali Tait
19-09-2014, 11:47
Doubt it. I don't want Scotland to leave the UK, but voting irregularities is a very serious matter so best report it and let the SNP investigate this apparent issue broadcast on Sky News.
Regards Neil
Just a joke Neil.
Spectral Morn
19-09-2014, 11:49
Just a joke Neil.
I know ;)
Regards Neil
So Marco, tell me this because enquiring minds need to know: When does pride in your country of origin become 'arrogance' exactly??? I'm sorry, can't quite hear you???
Not sure what you’re getting at, Dave… If you want an example of true arrogance, you need look no further than what that idiot earlier said from Westminster. That’s got f*ck all to do with pride in one’s country of origin, but rather the desire to repress others, supposedly within the same ‘union'.
Anyway, in relation to another matter, check you PMs! :)
Marco.
So what am I then?
Born in Aylesbury with one half firmly embedded for hundreds of years in the Chilterns (Herts, Beds, Bucks with a toe in East Northants) and the other half equally firmly in the Vale of Clwyd, mostly between Ruthin & Denbigh!
I have grown to dislike my English roots more as the years have gone on! I'm not Welsh (wasn't born there), yet I have a far larger spiritual connection to Nth Wales and don't live there 'cos herself says it's always raining there! We do have a great micro-climate in 'our' side of Suffolk :lol:
The Barbarian
19-09-2014, 12:21
I was quite suprised at work this morning when i was informed it was 'nay laddie'
:whistle:
Oldpinkman
19-09-2014, 12:33
Dave regardless and you may be right it needs investigated.
Regards Neil
I think, on balance, a mix up whilst the hoovering and dusting was going on seems more probable than blatant public camera-monitored vote-rigging, or even mind-boggling incompetence.
But of course, that won't stop the old adage - "Never let the truth get in the way of a good story"
;)
StanleyB
19-09-2014, 12:33
So what am I then?
Born in Aylesbury with one half firmly embedded for hundreds of years in the Chilterns (Herts, Beds, Bucks with a toe in East Northants) and the other half equally firmly in the Vale of Clwyd, mostly between Ruthin & Denbigh!
I have grown to dislike my English roots more as the years have gone on! I'm not Welsh (wasn't born there), yet I have a far larger spiritual connection to Nth Wales and don't live there 'cos herself says it's always raining there! We do have a great micro-climate in 'our' side of Suffolk :lol:
You are a hybrid :D.
wee tee cee
19-09-2014, 12:41
Woke up this morning to the NO result...
Thank goodness-
I will still be able to watch a dancing dog on Saturday night tv,
chips and lager wont go up in price,
The wise unelected people in the house of lords can keep us in check,
we can spend a billion a pop on new trident submarines and keep paying our american friends for the lease of the unusable weapons,
the nice woman who was born in a castle can keep hold of her position,
I can now trade in my irn bru bottles (glass cheques) I was a wee bit worried that might be the only viable currency option,
I can enjoy the great media we have that is open, honest and transparent without any vested interest.
I can enjoy our NHS-when they are not on strike though,
We will be able to defend our self from imminent invasion- not sure from who though.
I am not surprised by the outcome just saddened
Despite my ramblings on here I am genuinely saddened by the result as I truly believe it would have been a bit of a wake up call for the populations of both countries. The Scots will have discovered that much of what they have historically blamed on us can be laid squarely at their own feet and conversely, the same could be said for us. I truly believe that a 'YES' vote would have forced certain sectors of both nations to grow up thus putting an end to the schoolyard 'bully boy' tactics employed by both camps.
I very much believe that Alec Salmond lost this for you guys. From the get go he set out to demonise the English and our heritage when instead he ought to have been concentrating on what makes Scotland great and how that translated into independent nationhood. I can't help but wonder if the result would have gone the other way had Jim Sillars been the figurehead for the YES campaign.
Wakefield Turntables
19-09-2014, 12:52
Right, Scotland voted "NO", I think we should now move on. This whole news coverage & blanket bombardment of this topic is boring.
Not for me it isn't, I find the whole thing rather fascinating. In the meantime, if you find it boring Andy no-one is forcing you to stay and read the thread ;)
Other than having the Council Tax tested on them (which was 30 odd years ago and the English got it too a couple of years later) exactly what are all these 'injustices' the Scots have had to endure? I'm racking my brains...
Me too and I live here, I'm baffled.
Despite my ramblings on here I am genuinely saddened by the result as I truly believe it would have been a bit of a wake up call for the populations of both countries. The Scots will have discovered that much of what they have historically blamed on us can be laid squarely at their own feet and conversely, the same could be said for us. I truly believe that a 'YES' vote would have forced certain sectors of both nations to grow up thus putting an end to the schoolyard 'bully boy' tactics employed by both camps.
I very much believe that Alec Salmond lost this for you guys. From the get go he set out to demonise the English and our heritage when instead he ought to have been concentrating on what makes Scotland great and how that translated into independent nationhood. I can't help but wonder if the result would have gone the other way had Jim Sillars been the figurehead for the YES campaign.
Jim Sillars is mental Dave, have you not seen footage of him with his 'caravan', fecking hilarious if it wasn't so sad.
He parks the van on a street, any street and then starts shouting with a megaphone at random passers by, one man an a dug type of thing.
Canavan is another loonball.
Wakefield Turntables
19-09-2014, 14:05
Not for me it isn't, I find the whole thing rather fascinating. In the meantime, if you find it boring Andy no-one is forcing you to stay and read the thread ;)
Thats why I've only posted to comment on the whole situation, I'll not be posting again in this thread.
Stratmangler
19-09-2014, 14:09
Other than having the Council Tax tested on them (which was 30 odd years ago and the English got it too a couple of years later) exactly what are all these 'injustices' the Scots have had to endure? I'm racking my brains...
Let's get this correct - it was the Poll Tax, and it was administered on a per capita basis, and charged irrespective of ability or inability to pay.
It was possible for a millionaire's family of say 4 adults (2 parents and 2 offspring) to end up with a smaller Poll Tax bill than a family of 5 living in a much more modest house.
Where is the justice in that?
The Council Tax was a return to payment according to rateable value of a property, with concessions toward single occupancy.
The Council Tax only became contentious because of the ridiculous tax on unoccupied bedrooms in Council properties - whoever dreamt that one up should be dragged out onto the street and be tarred and feathered!
Yes you are part right it was actually called the community charge and it was an asinine idea and easy to avoid paying if you rented you just moved every six months. They never got apenny from me.
More shocking evidence of vote rigging - check this out:
LbJif7vISQg
Marco.
Oh really? Marco mate, let it go for gawds sake.... :doh:
Why on earth should I 'let it go' if there is actual corruption going on? I have no problem whatsoever with accepting the result of the vote *if *it is GENUINE. However, if some shady dealings have been taking place, then they deserve to be EXPOSED and the culprits hanged by their balls!!!
Have you watched the video? If so, how can you defend it? Should we just sit back and sweep corruption under the carpet?
Marco.
http://www.oilandgaspeople.com/news/1039/scottish-west-coast-untapped-oil-and-gas-reserves-worth-trillions/
Marco.
Seriously? How much revenue do you think it generates for the local economy in that part of Scotland? Ask the locals if they would like to see the submarine base closed down.
http://www.nuclearinfo.org/article/uk-trident-operational-berths/ministry-defence-reveals-just-520-faslane-jobs-depend-trident
;)
Marco.
http://www.nuclearinfo.org/article/uk-trident-operational-berths/ministry-defence-reveals-just-520-faslane-jobs-depend-trident
;)
Marco.
Only 1800 jobs. Well that's fine then I am sure they will all be happy to take redundancy....
Claims that Scotland would lose thousands of jobs if the Trident nuclear weapons system is taken out of service or moved elsewhere have been thrown into question following an admission by the Ministry of Defence that only 520 civilian jobs at HM Naval Base Clyde are dependent on Trident.
Try again - this time with your proper glasses on (the ones that don't only let you see what you want to accept)! ;)
I’m talking about jobs directly related to Trident. There’s a huge misconception that it’s the subs themselves that create all the jobs. That particular balloon has now been burst.
Marco.
Read the whole article like I did and you will see that with the knock on effect it is more than 500. Job losses do not happen in isolation. In a small community the effect will be devestation.
From a military point of view I would concur with not replacing trident since post cold war it is not that useful and does not justify the cost. But that is adifferent argument. I can't take your suggestion that it makes Scotland a target seriously. Even without it there would be several targets in Scotland. Every major port and airport would be targets since that is where the US REFORGER reinforcements would be landed in the event of an attack on NATO.
Read the whole article like I did and you will see that with the knock on effect it is more than 500. Job losses do not happen in isolation. In a small community the effect will be devestation.
If you analyse something long enough, you can ‘imagine’ all sorts of things… Such as imagining you didn’t see this bit, at the end of the article:
The Scottish National Party has calculated that diverting £1 billion from the Trident replacement programme into infrastructure spending in the west of Scotland would generate around 15,000 jobs.
So…. Get rid of 500 jobs (or so), along with Trident, and then create 15,000 in other areas. Seems like a good deal to me.
Marco.
Oldpinkman
20-09-2014, 14:13
Never mind. The Scots are staying with us a wee bit longer. And it looks like it has highlighted the issue of English devolution and put that firmly on the mainstream political agenda (I stood as an MEP for the English Democrats a few years back). It has to be a good thing that the Union has equality of treatment for all nations within it, and if powers are devolved to Scottish or Welsh or Northern Irish assemblies those same matters should either be devolved to an English assembly, or Westminster MP's from nations other than England, should be prohibited from voting at Westminster on those matters
And that principle, which a few years ago was radical and fringe, now seems to have moved centre stage as a result of this referendum.
Well done Scotland! :)
brian2957
20-09-2014, 14:17
Excellent point well made Richard :)
Indeed, it’s nice to see an English viewpoint expressed that for once doesn’t contain thinly-disguised scorn for Scottish people simply wanting to (justifiably) better themselves! :clap: :clap:
Marco.
So…. Get rid of 500 jobs (or so), along with Trident, and then create 15,000 in other areas. Seems like a good deal to me.
Marco.
You make the assumption that the money not spent on Trident is real money that can be allocated elsewhere. In fact it is just borrowed money and the most sensible thing to do if it were not to be borrowed to be spend on Trident would be not to borrow it at all. And you make an leap of logic in assuming that were it borrowed anyway it would be given to Scotland to 'create jobs'.
In any case there is only one thing that 'creates jobs' and that is free private enterprise. Businesses are not set up for the purpose of creating jobs. They have one purpose and that is to make money for the owners/shareholders. If they create jobs in doing that it is simply as a pleasant side effect. No successful business employs more people than it needs. The idea that a government can 'create jobs' is an absurdity. They can add lots more public sector employees but in order to pay their wages they must tax private sector profits and the wages of private sector workers. No private sector = no tax = no money = all those lovely 'jobs' that were created vanish like the morning dew.
At best a government can only create an environment in which private enterprise can flourish in the hope that one of the side effects will be more jobs. That this simple truth has been seemingly forgotten on all sides of the political spectrum does not bode well for the future. Salmond and his demands for 'job creating powers' made me laugh. What are these 'powers'? Are they similar to Harry Potter's wizard powers? They should start teaching basic economics in junior school perhaps then in a generation's time the politicians would have to up their game at least a little.
No public sector jobs and no one to buy private sector produce.
Private sector workers will buy private sector products. Public sector workers are paid with private sector money. All money is created by the private sector. Public sector workers are paid (indirectly) by the private sector. You can have a private sector without a public sector but you can't have the reverse. The idea that you can has gained some ground in the last few decades, as I said economic illiteracy is the cause.
Obviously for society (as opposed to an economy) to function then you do need some public sector workers and by that I mean public or private sector workers whose wages are paid for directly or indirectly by tax collected from the private sector. Private companies performing government assigned work, in other words. You could in theory privatise the entire public sector (and I am not suggesting we should) but you would still need to tax the private sector to pay for the public works it does.
Oldpinkman
20-09-2014, 15:16
Blimey Martin, you do take 'em on. ;)
I have this very discussion with my good lady, when her union try to get her out on strike about her pension. As a teacher in a state comprehensive, she is not a tax payer - she is a tax receiver. She may well be an outstanding teacher, providing an essential service, which as a taxpayer I am delighted to pay my taxes for - but she does not generate any wealth or economic prosperity. She allows us to spend the wealth we have generated and receive a benefit of education
You could not have an economy that was all nurses teachers civil servants or other public sector employees, because they all receive rather than pay taxes. And you can only receive taxes if someone else pays them. I have been in a bit of a debate on TAS about this in respect of the putative move to France, and their governments insane regressive taxation policies. It is creating precisely the scenario you describe in France. Excessive taxation, particularly of the entrepreneurial small business, means that those starting a business either fail under the weight of taxation, or, if they have been better advised, don't start one in the first place.
Instead - they obtain low paid employment from Government and quasi government bureacracies (a French speciality) which suffer and pay the absurd national insurance contributions on those employees - but of course, are paying that NI out of NI taken from somebody else, since those employees are tax-receivers not tax-payers, and the whole process adds to the funding the government needs to find. The only way out for the permanent long term would be to radically cut the tax burden on small business, and generate real wealth, which could then be taxed at an affordable rate to provide the social benefits we all need to be taxed for.
It's made worse by the fact that they are in a free trade Economic Union, where businesses can locate in other low tax regimes, and sell import-tarrif free into France. The country is going down the pan - which is a real shame, cos we would have liked to live there :(
But your core point about economic fundamentals is so true it is excrutiating that so many can't or won't grasp it. :doh:
This is the sort of ‘geeky' politics that bores the shite out of me, so I’ll leave you guys to it! ;)
Marco.
Instead - they obtain low paid employment from Government and quasi government bureacracies (a French speciality) which suffer and pay the absurd national insurance contributions on those employees - but of course, are paying that NI out of NI taken from somebody else, since those employees are tax-receivers not tax-payers, and the whole process adds to the funding the government needs to find. The only way out for the permanent long term would be to radically cut the tax burden on small business, and generate real wealth, which could then be taxed at an affordable rate to provide the social benefits we all need to be taxed for.
:
Yep it is not rocket science and it is not politics, either (Marco take note) It is hard cold reality.
Just like a business has a sole purpose to make a profit politicians have a sole purpose which is to get (re)-elected. What better way to get a man to vote for you than to tell him that you will 'create' a job for him and pay him a good wage to do it? The fact that this is beyond the power of any politician to do does not stop them promising it. Imagine if a politician were to say 'I can do nothing for your financial state, that is entirely your own responsibility and if you want to improve it then you will need to take any opportunity, however marginal, work hard and live within your means, however poor they may be, and you might get richer but you might not.' That should be taught at school too.
Listening to the youngsters being interviewed during the referendum build-up it is clear we are creating starry-eyed idealists who think money grows on trees and that the only reason the government doesn't spend more of it on the NHS is because they are nasty, English Tories who want to see everyone suffer. It really is a tragedy of ignorance and yet they keep on voting for the next messiah and being bitterly disappointed when he doesn't deliver jam today like he said he would. Tony Blair being a classic example. I'll never forget being in the pub with a bunch of Labour Party members in 1997 when he was elected, they really thought that was it, that the promised land had arrived. And it would have been the same story in Scotland if 'Yes' had won.
unless people want to go back to the 18th century I think you'll find it aint that simple an equation. One hand washes the other is an equal and responsible society. I know the Tories would like to bring back serfdom.:eyebrows: Once upon a time I may have agreed but I'm wiser now. Like Marco I'll leave it there; my life's too short.:)
Strategy noted and stowed away for future reference, and on that cryptic remark I'm gone....again... ;)
. I know the Tories would like to bring back serfdom.:eyebrows: .:)
Well that is an important point even if said in jest. We cannot rely on people being moral about this, if there is nothing to stop him then a business owner can pay his workers peanuts and demand long hours. So you have to have a corresponding force to push against that in times when there is a large surplus of labour, which is why trade unions came into being. Unfortunately for this country the trade unions politicised and formed the Labour Party and the whole process of workers getting together and negotiating with employers for a better deal was co-opted for another, far more sinister purpose.
Sorry, can’t resist interrupting this politically intellectual discourse with something undoubtedly more ‘low-brow’, but rather more interesting:
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/09/20/scottish-referendum-rigged-petition_n_5854016.html
Should reach the national news soon now………………. ;)
We demand a revote be taken of said referendum, where each vote shall be counted by two individuals, one of whom should be an international impartial party without a stake in the vote...
Hear, hear!
Marco.
I suspect you have not read the report in its entirety ;)
But amid reports of flag burning and mounting tensions in the city, BBC journalist Andrew Neil used Twitter to criticise people he said were posting images from the London riots in a bid to pass them off as Glasgow.
Indeed, and what kind of sick asshole would do that, eh?
Marco.
A disgruntled YES supporter perhaps? Let's face it, even if Police Scotland prosecute all ten cases of 'suspected irregularities' it isn't going to affect the overall result. I wonder if Glasgow will begin it's own independence campaign to secede from the rest of Scotland now the result has been finalised? :D
archiesdad
20-09-2014, 17:03
I know of one illegal vote, but, it was a yes so not worth demanding a recount there.
You make the assumption that the money not spent on Trident is real money that can be allocated elsewhere. In fact it is just borrowed money and the most sensible thing to do if it were not to be borrowed to be spend on Trident would be not to borrow it at all. And you make an leap of logic in assuming that were it borrowed anyway it would be given to Scotland to 'create jobs'.
I worked out that spending £1bn to 'create' 15,000 jobs comes out at £66,666-ish per job. Dunno if the £1bn on Trident is an annual or one-off cost though.
Good God, where have you been? Welcome back! :)
Marco.
Help expose the corruption of our current government by clicking on the following link and SIGNING for an official investigation to take place into the vote counting procedures during the recent Scottish referendum:
https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/independent-enquiry-for-scottish-referendum-vote-count
If you abhor political corruption and being by ruled by the interests of the London-centric Tory/Lab establishment, as I do, and seek justice for their suspected rigging of the referendum, then SIGN IT NOW, folks!!
Marco.
Canetoad
22-09-2014, 10:07
If somebody else put something like this in three different threads would they get away with it? :scratch:
Please give it a rest!
SHAN'T!
Me neither, though I have signed several of their other petitions - this one is dead in the water IMO.
If somebody else put something like this in three different threads would they get away with it? :scratch:
Please give it a rest!
Bernie, other than when it was initially placed in Blank Canvas (now removed), the subject matter has been put where it relevant. I will “give it a rest” when others stop engaging me here in discussion, so you know what to do, don’t you? ;)
Marco.
Me neither, though I have signed several of their other petitions - this one is dead in the water IMO.
Probably, but we’ll see. Regardless, I just hope it causes as much inconvenience as possible for the b*stards behind the suspected fraud - and I mean the REAL SOURCE of it….!
It’s important that people always stand up and fight for what they believe is right and never just meekly bow down to the system, regardless of how much of a ‘pain in the arse’ they are seen as by some ;)
Marco.
montesquieu
25-09-2014, 16:04
Coming VERY late to this (do I count as Scottish Mafia? I've been down south about 18 years).
I really enjoyed Alan Massie in the Spectator on this (references the zoomer phenomenon):
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/alex-massie/2014/09/the-yes-movement-slowly-moves-through-the-kubler-ross-stages-of-grief/
FWIW my sister (a civil servant in East Kilbride) was a raging 'Yes'. Her and her daughter made cup cakes with saltires on to celebrate the inevitable at the victory party.
One of her friends was a teller at the count - also a raging 'Yes' voter. I'm reporting third hand here obviously but neither my sister nor her friend believe there was any kind of serious attempt to nobble the vote (how do you conjure an extra 500,000 votes out of thin air anyway? this isn't Zimbabwe).
They lost. They are gutted. But they accept that outside the Glasgow/Lanarkshire bubble that was giving them a false sense of hope, most people in Scotland were agin. That's democracy.
Hi Tom,
Thanks for your polite and considered input into the discussion, which is appreciated, considering that you had family and friends involved in actual voting process. If only similar input, not in defence of my stance on the matter, could’ve been expressed by others so tolerantly and considerately :)
Marco.
Hi Tom,
Thanks for your polite and considered input into the discussion, which is appreciated, considering that you had family and friends involved in actual voting process. If only similar input, not in defence of my stance on the matter, could’ve been expressed by others so tolerantly and considerately :)
Marco.
Marco, does this more considered response (dare I say) indicate that either you are beginning to realise the count result will stay and/or your view is very much in the minority? I don't think the post to which you refer has said anything new or expressed it better than what has been previously posted, only that it has been posted well after the initial feelings of exultation or disappointment have faded somewhat all round.
Dave
Hi Dave,
Marco, does this more considered response (dare I say) indicate that either you are beginning to realise the count result will stay and/or your view is very much in the minority?
I’ve always known that my view here was in the minority, but that doesn’t mean I’m not entitled to express it or that I should be derided for doing so, simply because the majority disagree. The result will almost certainly stay the way it is, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s been arrived at 100% competently and honestly.
I don't think the post to which you refer has said anything new or expressed it better than what has been previously posted...
We’ll have to disagree about that, Dave. Tom has shown rather more tolerance towards an alternative viewpoint than I was afforded from others, who instead chose to attack rather more than listen, or attempt to understand or empathise with my view.
Anyway, we’re in danger again of going over old ground. We just have to accept that we're extremely different people, with very different personalities and outlook on life, and therefore on most things will rarely see eye to eye, and just move on.
Marco.
Hi Dave,
We just have to accept that we're extremely different people, with very different personalities and outlook on life, and therefore on most things will rarely see eye to eye, and just move on.
Marco.
Hi Marco,'
I'm more than happy with that providing my 'alternative' posts, as long as they are expressed within the rules and ethos of the forum, are not treated as being divisive or anti-anything. I have the same deep felt objection to political, and indeed any other, corruption, believe me but I tend to look at things differently to you and post accordingly. It does not mean that I disagree with everything you say, just that I do not think you are always right in your pronouncements on many and various subjects, many of which you are no better qualified to comment on than I am.
I said when I rejoined AoS that I would comply with the rules and, as far as I am concerned I have done so. I do plead guilty to disagreeing with you though and expect to continue to post accordingly on occasions.
Dave,
It does not mean that I disagree with everything you say, just that I do not think you are always right in your pronouncements on many and various subjects, many of which you are no better qualified to comment on than I am.
I’ve never said any differently, Dave. I don’t proclaim to always be right, but I do insist that when I say ‘enough is enough’, during an argument, that everyone here has the grace to respect my decision, and abide by it, without being subjected to the third degree. What happened in the thread in Critics Corner earlier today was out of order.
Anyway, other than that, I have no objection to what you’ve written, so let’s just put it behind us now and move on.
Marco.
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