Pioneer PL-12D TT Cartridge upgrade any ideas/help

[nickthechef]

I have an old Pioneer PL12D TT which i have now restored and re-wired.
Currently i am using it with a AT95e cartridge which isn't to shabby for a budget cartridge. However I would like to do the system some justice and upgrade the cartridge to a moving coil or good alternative.

I have the following in mind

Denon DL110
Denon DL103 - Got a good reputation but a bit more than I want to spend but is it worth the extra money compared to the 110 above.
Am thinking of buying the Ortofon SH-4 headshell for the above.


Alternative option:
Ortofon 2M plug and play (Red or Blue)
Was thinking of this option as it comes with it's own headshell and am probably going to have to upgrade the headshell anyway.

I am not to 'au fait' with the compliance side of TT setup so any thoughts or experience anyone can shed on this TT would be greatly appreciated.

My system comprises of said TT with a Cambridge Audio 651p phono stage
Musical Fidelity 'The Preamp' / Technics SE-A1000 Reference power amp
Dali Zeonsor 3 speakers

Mostly listen to acoustic/indie/classical music

[walpurgis]

Find a good used DL-160. Far sweeter and smoother sounding than the DL-110 and a good match with the PL-12D, even better with a cast alloy headshell. The DL-160 is no longer available new in the UK, but good used ones crop up on eBay. I owned the 160 and 110 at the same time and compared them several times. The 160 is a very nice high output MC.

[walpurgis]

Nick, just moved your thread to the 'Analogue Arts' section where it really belongs, in order to keep the 'Welcome area' less cluttered. Geoff. :)

[paskinn]

Why an mc? They are no better than the correspondingly priced mm, at least to my ears. The 12D was usually matched with a Shure, and the 97ex would be perfect. The arm was excellent for the price, but the operative words are 'for the price.'
Remarkable deck which galvanised student buyers in the 1970s with the sheer quality....put an end to quite a few Garrards. Historically a very influential deck.

[walpurgis]

Why an mc?

Why not?

[Clive197]

Having once been the proud owner of a PL12D I would never advise putting a MC cartridge in it. The bearings in the arm would not be able to take it IMO. A good arm for a MM but please remember that these decks were built down to a price so they could be sold in there thousands just in the UK. MC's are low compliance and therefor stiff which causes a huge strain on arm bearings.

Clive

[Geoff101]

I just sold a PL-12D. It had a Shure M75ED on it and sounded rather nice.

[walpurgis]

Having once been the proud owner of a PL12D I would never advise putting a MC cartridge in it. The bearings in the arm would not be able to take it IMO. A good arm for a MM but please remember that these decks were built down to a price so they could be sold in there thousands just in the UK. MC's are low compliance and therefor stiff which causes a huge strain on arm bearings.

Clive

I've used MCs in PL-12Ds with no problem and the arm is well suited to them. The deck may have sold in thousands, but the arm bearings are high quality and the tiny inertia forces generated by any cartridge will have no bad effect. In any case, there isn't a big gap in compliance values between modern MC and MM cartridges. I've even had Deccas running perfectly well in the Pioneer and they're about as stiff a cartridge as you'll find. In fact, I've never heard of an arm being damaged by a cartridge.

[walpurgis]

I just sold a PL-12D. It had a Shure M75ED on it and sounded rather nice.

That was a favourite combination back then. The M75ED is actually borderline suitability for the PL-12D as the arm has a fair bit of mass and the Shure is of reasonably high compliance.

[Geoff101]

That was a favourite combination back then. The M75ED is actually borderline suitability for the PL-12D as the arm has a fair bit of mass and the Shure is of reasonably high compliance.

Would it be better with an EJ on it or one of the other stylus options that track a little heavier? I'm told that the body is the same on the M75 whatever the stylus suffix.

[Clive197]

It was a popular combination because it worked. It was the Shure V15MkIII that was significantly less suitable.

Clive

[Gordon Steadman]

I have a PL112D and the M75 ED sounds fine on it. I use it for recording LPs onto the Mac and I find it a pleasure to listen to. Yes of course, the main deck is 'better' but the music still shines through.

[spendorman]

How about the Shure M95HE for the PL12D? I found that it worked very well, although the M75ED is very good, I found the M95HE better.

[synsei]

How about the Shure M95HE for the PL12D? I found that it worked very well, although the M75ED is very good, I found the M95HE better.

I am rather fond of the 95HE too and much prefer it to the '75 and several of it's more expensive brethren. I 'potted' mine into it's plastic housing which improved dynamics and imaging a fair bit ;)

[walpurgis]

Would it be better with an EJ on it or one of the other stylus options that track a little heavier? I'm told that the body is the same on the M75 whatever the stylus suffix.

No, there's no need to use an EJ stylus, although it would sound perfectly fine with one. (yes the styli are interchangeable)

[walpurgis]

It was a popular combination because it worked. It was the Shure V15MkIII that was significantly less suitable.

Clive
#
That is correct. The compliance rating of the V15 III was 30 rendering it unsuitable for the PL-12D and I believe the M75ED II was around 20. There's also the M91ED, which was probably my favourite Shure cartridge, which has a similar rating to the M75ED II if I recall.

[spendorman]

I am rather fond of the 95HE too and much prefer it to the '75 and several of it's more expensive brethren. I 'potted' mine into it's plastic housing which improved dynamics and imaging a fair bit ;)

I bought the M95ED as well, but preferred the M95HE, both purchased new. Incidentally, I found the better Philips cartridges like GP422 very much like the M95HE.

[paskinn]

Why recommend Shure cartridges that have been unavailable for many years, when the 97xe is available for about £70 and is, to my ears, more than good enough. Certainly better than the Shure 75 I used thirty years ago! As for MCs, you might get away with it, but why bother....the Pioneer wasn't designed for them, and the bearings will be less than perfect after at least three decades; mechanical things do deteriorate over time. Give the deck the easiest time possible, in audio terms it is approaching old age.
Like me really. although the Pioneer might be in better condition.....

[walpurgis]

Why recommend Shure cartridges that have been unavailable for many years.

I wasn't aware that anybody had :scratch:

We were only discussing them.

[paskinn]

A touch of pedantry perhaps ? The OP was asking what cartridge he should use....in other words, he was asking for recommendations.

[Clive197]

Why recommend Shure cartridges that have been unavailable for many years, when the 97xe is available for about £70 and is, to my ears, more than good enough. Certainly better than the Shure 75 I used thirty years ago! As for MCs, you might get away with it, but why bother....the Pioneer wasn't designed for them, and the bearings will be less than perfect after at least three decades; mechanical things do deteriorate over time. Give the deck the easiest time possible, in audio terms it is approaching old age.
Like me really. although the Pioneer might be in better condition.....

I have to agree with you, except about the 75ED. I loved that cartridge in my PL12D that is until I bought the Ortofon VMS20E.

Clive

[walpurgis]

A touch of pedantry perhaps ? The OP was asking what cartridge he should use....in other words, he was asking for recommendations.

Ah. Well in that case, a Denon DL-110.

[nickthechef]

Crikey - can or worms opened her! lol

Has anyone tried the Ortofon 2M Red/Blue cartridges with the built in headshell's - the 'plug and play' versions?

[nickthechef]

Nick, just moved your thread to the 'Analogue Arts' section where it really belongs, in order to keep the 'Welcome area' less cluttered. Geoff. :)

Thanks - will do that next time.

[karma67]

i have a sansui sr-212 which is simular to the pl-12d,i had a at95e fitted with a jico replacement stylus,i loved it until i tried the shure 75ed,lovely warm sound !

[Geoff101]

An NOS M75ED went on eBay the other day for less than £20.
There was also an unused ED stylus but I bought that.