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WikiBoy
21-03-2008, 12:34
Do you feel you are being served fairly by British Hi-Fi retailers or do you feel you are being largely ripped off.

Steve Toy
21-03-2008, 13:43
I've put no because I do have a basic understanding of business. A lot of hi-fi dealers, especially the service-based ones (as opposed to the mere box shifters) are struggling.

It is not they who are ripping us off, it our lovely tax & spend/waste government for making this a very expensive country to live and trade in.

WikiBoy
21-03-2008, 14:13
I've put no because I do have a basic understanding of business. A lot of hi-fi dealers, especially the service-based ones (as opposed to the mere box shifters) are struggling.

It is not they who are ripping us off, it our lovely tax & spend/waste government for making this a very expensive country to live and trade in.


Everyone is subject to the same trading conditions in this country, so why does Hi-Fi retail have to have such rip off mark ups. No other industy but maybe furniture (but that is changing fast) and jewelry has it. The price a manufacturer charges a retailer (Not the likes of Richer Sound, but the independents) is *doubled* to the price he asks you for it!!!

Steve Toy
21-03-2008, 14:22
The turnover in good service-based dealerships is rather low. You get what you pay for.

WikiBoy
21-03-2008, 14:42
The turnover in good service-based dealerships is rather low. You get what you pay for.

Computer or washing machine sellers don't have to give service!

There is no excuse apart from the industry was talked into it by the flat earth mafia in the late 70' and 80's.

Originally everything was very simple.

1 a manufacturer made something.
2 he took it to wholesellers who put a 20% margin on it and sold it to retailers.
3 the retailers (Imhofs was a classic example) displayed and promoted it and put a 30% margin on it
4 end of 60's retail price maintenance was banned and the discounters appeared. That process promoted and generated great expansion in the market.
5 Linn and Naim saw a marketing niche (actually Julian just followed Ivor as Ivor needed him at that time and they marketed as siamese twins). The traditional retailers were going bust due to the discounters. So they were given *exclusives* with high profit margins (100% up or 50% down depending on how you look at it, and a promise that they would use blackmail and illegal control practises to make sure no one discounted) and an overkill marketing campaign linked to the emotional and intellectual (and in a small number of cases financial) hi-jacking of the magazine editors and writers.

That is how the hi-fi mafia was born, and every new sector of the market like valves coming in since has had to play the game or do no business.

Now the world is different and becoming more so. You now can do business without pandering to this overt corruption - the reason - the web - many thing from politics downwards is going to be able to dispence with the middle men, the on cost, the leaches who feed off *your* hard earned wages.

Colinx
21-03-2008, 15:08
It depends who's position you look at it from.
1.That of a manufacturing company that where screwed by the industry structure.
2.The retailer trying to make a living, and cover ever increasing overhead and tax costs in a restrictive market,
3. The final customer, looking to see, hear, and use the stuff before he buys it.

I have no direct experience of the first, a little of the second, but in a different industry, and a fair amount of the third.

I keep being told by various companies that selling on the web is the way forward. You can buy it, and if you don't like it send it back, you pay only for the transport. In theory fine, other than lets say, I want to compare 3 amps at say £500.00. So I either have to pay for all 3 and get them to my home at the same time, or have one follow the other. I would prefer all at the same time, so I need to have 3x the cost price available at the time of purchase. I have to pay 3 x delivery fee's, plus 3 x return fee's, say £25 a box each way, so that £150 in transports cost to buy a £500 amp. Most couriers deliver between 8 and 5.30, so some one has to be at home to receive them. Will they all deliver on same day, or a weekend, will they hell, so that's either one or two days holiday gone to take delivery, another to send them back. How much is that- anywhere between £80 and £320 in lost wages on a low wage- lets half it £200, so £200 plus transport of £150, thats cost the customer £350 to buy a £500 pound amp, those margins don't look so silly do they? If we assume that the man selling the amp at £500 is not registered for VAT, but needs to be with the direct scheme, thats £80 ish- these £500 pound amps are soon going to be £1000 when all the costs are covered. I would rather use a day off to visit a retailer, compare how stuff looks and sounds and make my choice rather than have a box sent to me. All the internet sales route does is move the logistics problems- and point them straight at the paying customer.

Steve Toy
21-03-2008, 15:18
And you don't get the holistic approach that makes your system actually play music.

Mike
21-03-2008, 15:44
Are we voting whether we are being ripped off but the 'Hi-Fi Industry' in general (as the thread title suggests) or the 'Hi-Fi Retailer' which is more specific (as the poll title suggests)???

:scratch:

WikiBoy
21-03-2008, 15:45
It depends who's position you look at it from.
1.That of a manufacturing company that where screwed by the industry structure.
2.The retailer trying to make a living, and cover ever increasing overhead and tax costs in a restrictive market,
3. The final customer, looking to see, hear, and use the stuff before he buys it.

I have no direct experience of the first, a little of the second, but in a different industry, and a fair amount of the third.

I keep being told by various companies that selling on the web is the way forward. You can buy it, and if you don't like it send it back, you pay only for the transport. In theory fine, other than lets say, I want to compare 3 amps at say £500.00. So I either have to pay for all 3 and get them to my home at the same time, or have one follow the other. I would prefer all at the same time, so I need to have 3x the cost price available at the time of purchase. I have to pay 3 x delivery fee's, plus 3 x return fee's, say £25 a box each way, so that £150 in transports cost to buy a £500 amp. Most couriers deliver between 8 and 5.30, so some one has to be at home to receive them. Will they all deliver on same day, or a weekend, will they hell, so that's either one or two days holiday gone to take delivery, another to send them back. How much is that- anywhere between £80 and £320 in lost wages on a low wage- lets half it £200, so £200 plus transport of £150, thats cost the customer £350 to buy a £500 pound amp, those margins don't look so silly do they? If we assume that the man selling the amp at £500 is not registered for VAT, but needs to be with the direct scheme, thats £80 ish- these £500 pound amps are soon going to be £1000 when all the costs are covered. I would rather use a day off to visit a retailer, compare how stuff looks and sounds and make my choice rather than have a box sent to me. All the internet sales route does is move the logistics problems- and point them straight at the paying customer.

Colin you are obviously an intelligent man and I completely agree with you. BUT it is early days in the revolution. Even though I have my disputes 'wiv der management' at wigwam, I still think it represents the future far more than here or PF and DEFINITELY not ZG. Reason - it has developed community. This is the future of the web, and has been my point in numerous past posts. It is not just selling on the web, that is a very small part of the equation. All hobby industry will or should develop this community, what is in the way of it - well the marketing men and retailers who pollute the web with their bullshit. There are many who don't and try to become part of community instead of trying to feed of it, and if they want to survive that is what they should do - have to do - to get goodwill.

The advice given and especially the bakeoffs at wigwam for me are the largest and strongest current finger pointing at the future. Head-fi in the US has similar. The customers *own* home will become the future retail point, but instead of being financially and marketing based, it will be information and community based. Groups of local enthusiasts who *want* to have like friends and people to help and help them. That is the future and if I have my way that is the way this forum will go as it has enormous potential as being the only one that hasn't had the management succumb to trough slurping.

WikiBoy
21-03-2008, 15:58
Are we voting whether we are being ripped off but the 'Hi-Fi Industry' in general (as the thread title suggests) or the 'Hi-Fi Retailer' which is more specific (as the poll title suggests)???

:scratch:

It is the hi-fi mafia that set the rules for the game but the retailers just feed off it. In your terms it is they that gets yer money.

Colinx
21-03-2008, 16:34
Colin you are obviously an intelligent man and I completely agree with you. BUT it is early days in the revolution. Even though I have my disputes 'wiv der management' at wigwam, I still think it represents the future far more than here or PF and DEFINITELY not ZG. Reason - it has developed community. This is the future of the web, and has been my point in numerous past posts. It is not just selling on the web, that is a very small part of the equation. All hobby industry will or should develop this community, what is in the way of it - well the marketing men and retailers who pollute the web with their bullshit. There are many who don't and try to become part of community instead of trying to feed of it, and if they want to survive that is what they should do - have to do - to get goodwill.

The advice given and especially the bakeoffs at wigwam for me are the largest and strongest current finger pointing at the future. Head-fi in the US has similar. The customers *own* home will become the future retail point, but instead of being financially and marketing based, it will be information and community based. Groups of local enthusiasts who *want* to have like friends and people to help and help them. That is the future and if I have my way that is the way this forum will go as it has enormous potential as being the only one that hasn't had the management succumb to trough slurping.

I can see, and understand what you want (hope) to achieve, and to be honest, anything that stops the march of the I thing, and the dreaded MP3 into the home of music fans needs to applauded and supported. The bake off system can be used and equally well abused by retailers, makers, and general muppets like me, and too an extent I am wary of them for that reason, but they could very well be a way forward.
I think you also have to be equally aware of the latest and greatest phenomenon, that sweeps most of the boards, plus the follow my leader syndrome.
Have you considered having regional ''fan boy's'' that can borrow your kit to demo to other people in their homes (I'm not proposing to be one) as an adjunct to your e-bay site. It may be that it is a cost effective way to air your products in a friendly, non sales environment, among a group of similar minded music fans.

As for the wam, I am still a regular user of the place and to be honest a bit surprised at your trough comments. I know that they charge for trade users, but seeing as a number of us also contribute towards its cost just to use it, seemed a fair idea to me. Nowt for Nowt as we say, even on the net.

WikiBoy
21-03-2008, 17:02
I can see, and understand what you want (hope) to achieve, and to be honest, anything that stops the march of the I thing, and the dreaded MP3 into the home of music fans needs to applauded and supported. The bake off system can be used and equally well abused by retailers, makers, and general muppets like me, and too an extent I am wary of them for that reason, but they could very well be a way forward.
I think you also have to be equally aware of the latest and greatest phenomenon, that sweeps most of the boards, plus the follow my leader syndrome.
Have you considered having regional ''fan boy's'' that can borrow your kit to demo to other people in their homes (I'm not proposing to be one) as an adjunct to your e-bay site. It may be that it is a cost effective way to air your products in a friendly, non sales environment, among a group of similar minded music fans.

As for the wam, I am still a regular user of the place and to be honest a bit surprised at your trough comments. I know that they charge for trade users, but seeing as a number of us also contribute towards its cost just to use it, seemed a fair idea to me. Nowt for Nowt as we say, even on the net.

Good again Colin and exactly the discussion I wanted to see. Yes of course the guy at wigwam can ask for donations, it is either that or asking for membership fee (how many would still be members). The donation thing is for me a part of community, like bringing wine or beer to a bakeoff. The trough is sending an invoice to anyone he perceives as industry and demanding a £50 fee under the threat that if you don't pay you get banned and your products cannot be talked about, which happened to NVA - Beresford and others. There are many here who can confirm this who have received threatening PMs that they will be booted if they contyinue to discuss these products. That is the trough being used Colin. If I had been left to making a donation I would have done so.

Your other points, yes of course the bakeoff system is open to corruption, and yes of course enthusiasts for your product become amatuer marketers, it is human nature, nothing is perfect. BUT it is up to the majority to pull in the over enthusiastic. I even discussed this aspect of it at my short stay at wigwam and PF about 18 months ago, and was flamed like you wouldn't believe by the £50 retailers and the amateur marketers. It could also even be corrupted to be like a Ann Summers :lolsign: or tupperware party. Is that what you want, I don't think so. It will find its own way as people will find ways to make it work if the marketers and sellers stay out of it. And yes sheep sydrome is again another problem at forums and I suppose potentially at bakeoffs. We have always had sheep which is why we always have wolves - natural selection.

Also if you wanted a half way house then users of product could become local reps on a commission or discount basis, and if this was a more professional industry like some then that could be the new retailing. But I feel this industry is different, people buy what they want if they are just left to hear it. Companies will succeed according to two factors 1 having product in the field to listen to 2 being better product. Natural selection then comes in and manufacturers cannot sit back and just rape their sheep and bullshit the market the way they are still doing even now.

I have put it in open domain, and will do again - If anyone organises a bakeoff through one of the established forums and wants me to loan product to compare with others I will willingly do it. I will not turn up to brow beat, lecture or offer a free lunch :lol: - just get on with it and tell me what you think.

This is good, anymore from anyone else?

Marco
21-03-2008, 17:17
I still think it represents the future far more than here or PF and DEFINITELY not ZG.


Really? Give us a bloody chance. We've only been going 9 weeks!! :drinking:

Marco.

WikiBoy
21-03-2008, 17:27
Really? Give us a bloody chance. We've only been going 9 weeks!! :drinking:

Marco.


You have no problem Marco, you are allowing it to be discussed. People don't like chains, more and more will come here, especially when you start to attract the sheep 'cos they just always follow each other :lolsign::lolsign::lolsign:

jimdgoulding
21-03-2008, 18:33
Selling on the web is mentioned above as the future. Yep, it's a whole new world. How many record shops are still around? I lived in San Francisco for a lot of years. That's a city that protects it's culture. Most of our older cities that were thought to ever have had a culture do. Elitism at it's finest. I know a cat in Idaho (parts of Idaho have pretty wealthy residents). He owns an audio salon. Sells the products that he admires. He also is a speaker builder. Markets online in places the this, at hifi shows and word of mouth. He sells his speakers direct. His speakers are handsomely finished and expensive. But you know what is cool? He also sells his designs in DIY form so the rest of us not in the neck of the woods of his local clientele can partake. You won't find a mass marketed item in his store except for maybe an accessory. I doubt that he will ever take his business public. I so respect his approach.

But when it comes to buying things like CD's or TV's, I buy like everybody else. I think the days of hi-fi salons are numbered except in exclusive markets. Such is life. But those of us who like finding our own way will always have avenues. Cause we're both creative and don't care to compromise. I don't see a problem myself. But, of course, we will have more choices if we have money. But we will never be tasteless.

Don't know if this is on point, just felt like sayin.

WikiBoy
21-03-2008, 18:43
Selling on the web is mentioned above as the future. Yep, it's a whole new world. How many record shops are still around? I lived in San Francisco for a lot of years. That's a city that protects it's culture. Most of our older cities that were thought to ever have had a culture do. Elitism at it's finest. I know a cat in Idaho (parts of Idaho have pretty wealthy residents). He owns an audio salon. Sells the products that he admires. He also is a speaker builder. Markets online in places the this, at hifi shows and word of mouth. He sells his speakers direct. His speakers are handsomely finished and expensive. But you know what is cool? He also sells his designs in DIY form so the rest of us not in the neck of the woods of his local clientele can partake. You won't find a mass marketed item in his store except for maybe an accessory. I doubt that he will ever take his business public. I so respect his approach.

But when it comes to buying things like CD's or TV's, I buy like everybody else. I think the days of hi-fi salons are numbered except in exclusive markets. Such is life. But those of us who like finding our own way will always have avenues. Cause we're both creative and don't care to compromise. I don't see a problem myself. But, of course, we will have more choices if we have money. But we will never be tasteless.

Don't know if this is on point, just felt like sayin.

And well said :exactly:

WikiBoy
21-03-2008, 23:18
BUMP :bag:

C'mon more votes :mex:

Chris Frost
22-03-2008, 00:27
I keep being told by various companies that selling on the web is the way forward. You can buy it, and if you don't like it send it back, you pay only for the transport. In theory fine, other than lets say, I want to compare 3 amps at say £500.00. So I either have to pay for all 3 and get them to my home at the same time, or have one follow the other. I would prefer all at the same time, so I need to have 3x the cost price available at the time of purchase. I have to pay 3 x delivery fee's, plus 3 x return fee's, say £25 a box each way, so that £150 in transports cost to buy a £500 amp. Most couriers deliver between 8 and 5.30, so some one has to be at home to receive them. Will they all deliver on same day, or a weekend, will they hell, so that's either one or two days holiday gone to take delivery, another to send them back. How much is that- anywhere between £80 and £320 in lost wages on a low wage- lets half it £200, so £200 plus transport of £150, thats cost the customer £350 to buy a £500 pound amp, those margins don't look so silly do they? If we assume that the man selling the amp at £500 is not registered for VAT, but needs to be with the direct scheme, thats £80 ish- these £500 pound amps are soon going to be £1000 when all the costs are covered. I would rather use a day off to visit a retailer, compare how stuff looks and sounds and make my choice rather than have a box sent to me. All the internet sales route does is move the logistics problems- and point them straight at the paying customer.Exactly.:youtheman:

Threads like this make me angry. They'd serve some purpose if the people of Britain valued service at the point of sale, but by and large we don't. We don't like to see charges for service, so the cost of service gets wrapped up into the price of the goods.

There's room in the market for all different types of approach - direct sales works for some companies, distribution & retail for others. If you are a consumer and you you want to buy from direct sellers then great, go ahead. But don't bitch and moan because something you've set your heart on is only available from a store because the manufacturer or distributor deems that as an important part of how they do business. And please, if you can't afford something then that's no excuse for complaining about "rip-offs".

The pursuit of "cheaper everything" isn't necessarily the answer. I think it's great that some niche brands are available direct. It adds diversity to the market, but I don't want to buy all my Hi-Fi like that!

It would be better if we had a thread focusing the dealers who are screwing up the Hi-Fi industry. I'm pretty lucky. I found a dealer who knows what they're doing and who isn't afraid to express a strong opinion. If your only experience of dealers is the type who will say anything to get your cash then I can sympathise how folk would feel ripped off. So why not do something about that?!

If the service is poor and the dealer is only interested in your cash then get active. Tell them to change or they'll lose your custom. If things don't change then walk. It's that simple. You're next action is then to out the crap dealers. This should be done in a responsible way - no rants or childish bitching - this forum doesn't need a load of flak.

WikiBoy
22-03-2008, 00:34
Exactly.:youtheman:

Threads like this make me angry. They'd serve some purpose if the people of Britain valued service at the point of sale, but by and large we don't. We don't like to see charges for service, so the cost of service gets wrapped up into the price of the goods.

There's room in the market for all different types of approach - direct sales works for some companies, distribution & retail for others. If you are a consumer and you you want to buy from direct sellers then great, go ahead. But don't bitch and moan because something you've set your heart on is only available from a store because the manufacturer or distributor deems that as an important part of how they do business. And please, if you can't afford something then that's no excuse for complaining about "rip-offs".

The pursuit of "cheaper everything" isn't necessarily the answer. I think it's great that some niche brands are available direct. It adds diversity to the market, but I don't want to buy all my Hi-Fi like that!

It would be better if we had a thread focusing the dealers who are screwing up the Hi-Fi industry. I'm pretty lucky. I found a dealer who knows what they're doing and who isn't afraid to express a strong opinion. If your only experience of dealers is the type who will say anything to get your cash then I can sympathise how folk would feel ripped off. So why not do something about that?!

If the service is poor and the dealer is only interested in your cash then get active. Tell them to change or they'll lose your custom. If things don't change then walk. It's that simple. You're next action is then to out the crap dealers. This should be done in a responsible way - no rants or childish bitching - this forum doesn't need a load of flak.

What prompted this was from another thread where the fact was stated that product in the UK is quite often twice the price here than in other markets like Singapore and the US.

Well I have been to both and visited stores in both. The stores are bigger and cleaner, the staff are more skilled and intelligent, the facilities are better, the service is better and the *same* product, even some made in the UK are often half the price people have to pay here for them.

Justify that Mr Retailer.

Chris Frost
22-03-2008, 01:02
I'm not an effing retailer.

Go buy your Hi-Fi from Singapore or the States then.

WikiBoy
22-03-2008, 01:16
I'm not an effing retailer.

Go buy your Hi-Fi from Singapore or the States then.

Then why does your sig say Chris Frost - trade member (dealer)

I don't buy hi-fi - I make it!

Chris Frost
22-03-2008, 01:35
Because I have a custom installation business, not that you bothered to find out before making your wise-ass cracks ;)


I don't buy hi-fi - I make it!

So what loudspeakers do you make then? :lol:

WikiBoy
22-03-2008, 10:41
Because I have a custom installation business, not that you bothered to find out before making your wise-ass cracks ;)



So what loudspeakers do you make then? :lol:

In the 90's

Cube 1
Cube 2
Cube 3
Cubix
Cubix Pro

At some point Cube 1 / 2 and Cubix will go back into production.

WikiBoy
22-03-2008, 12:31
Oh yes! and just to create a full house a turntable as well :ner: :gig:

There is a pic of it here with an embarrasingly young version of me.

This was my first attempt at direct UK selling, you will see parallels with what I think should happen now with the web and bake offs etc. It was fun but didn't draw in many sales. The hi-fi mafia had too mach control back then.

http://www.nene-valley-audio.com/frames/nva/reviews/challenge.html

Chris Frost
22-03-2008, 19:55
Exactly how did the HiFi mafia stop you making sales?

You were in peoples homes selling to them direct - no dealers, no distributors, no marketing men (unless you count your own company's efforts to reach an audience). :scratch:

WikiBoy
22-03-2008, 20:55
Exactly how did the HiFi mafia stop you making sales?

You were in peoples homes selling to them direct - no dealers, no distributors, no marketing men (unless you count your own company's efforts to reach an audience). :scratch:

Because they largely had become a herd of sheep, brainwashing was rife due to magazines, reviewers and retailers (der mafia) at that time. People were scared to trust their ears or make their own decisions unless they had one of the selected few with golden ears wiggling their foot up and down at the appropriate moments. It still happens now but at last customers are laughing at them. Anyway I was very limited in what I could do myself both in time and distance and our dealers were too lazy to get involved. It was a bit of lateral thinking that didn't work, that is all.

You keep trying don't you, not much success so far, you really should do your homework. So what happened to your laughter about speakers, huh. Acknowledge when you are wrong

Steve Toy
22-03-2008, 21:52
No need to be quite so abrasive Richard.

WikiBoy
22-03-2008, 22:34
No need to be quite so abrasive Richard.

He gets back what he is giving, read the thread.

He has a bee buzzing around his head, he is looking for angles, ways to attack, little inconsistencies in words. If you play that game I think it is right for him to accept it when he sticks his foot in it.

Mike
22-03-2008, 22:42
Breath Richard, breath......

Chris Frost
22-03-2008, 22:59
He gets back what he is giving, read the thread.

I was interested in what you had to say originally in the other thread, but you were so rude and dismissive when I first asked a question that it took me aback somewhat. Then you persisted in the same aggressive manner, so I thought "up yours".

So far, nothing in your approach since has convinced me otherwise that your earlier comments were out of character. :(

Welcome back Ashley, at least he was polite.

Mike
22-03-2008, 23:02
Welcome back Ashley, at least he was polite.

Sadly, I think he has well and truly taken his ball home with him!

:(

WikiBoy
22-03-2008, 23:07
Breath Richard, breath......

I think you don't understand, I breath very well in fact it is part of my training, as a member here can verify. This is about reading energy and responding to it, it is not about anger, which is completely fruitless in this situation. It is about the mirror. You mirror someones energy back at them, overtime it wears them down and they give up. A good rant is pantomime anger, this is different it is just game playing. The anger is in the initiator in this game not the responder. I have not initiated in any of these posts just responded.

Being versed in the Jedi arts you are perceptive enough to read what is going on. It is a game, you have a choice, join in and play, or let them play with themself :eyebrows: I chose to play.

I will admit to anger though when it comes to the way this industry has been exploited and defiled over the last nearly 30 years, but you can even use that constructively as long as you use it instead of it using you.

Mike
22-03-2008, 23:17
Apologies to those of a 'sensitive disposition' !

What a fucking perfect answer!!!! :youtheman:

I really like 'the cut of your jib'. <Doffs cap>

WikiBoy
22-03-2008, 23:18
I was interested in what you had to say originally in the other thread, but you were so rude and dismissive when I first asked a question that it took me aback somewhat. Then you persisted in the same aggressive manner, so I thought "up yours".

So far, nothing in your approach since has convinced me otherwise that your earlier comments were out of character. :(

Welcome back Ashley, at least he was polite.

So this little discussion :lolsign: has all been about you judging my character, well that is about as full of it as it gets. I hope you think it was worth it.

Mike
22-03-2008, 23:23
So this little discussion :lolsign: has all been about you judging my character, well that is about as full of it as it gets. I hope you think it was worth it.


Not for all of us.... (scroll up a bit) :)

WikiBoy
22-03-2008, 23:41
Not for all of us.... (scroll up a bit) :)

I was addressing Chris not you. I don't find you offensive or aggressive in the slightest. I am no role model for anyone though, I am just a cantancarous old git who has done toooo many strange things in my life to take anything or anyone too seriously. You on the other hand have great possibilities, get your obviously perceptive mind going on what makes music, where music and energy meet. How our perception of music is a purely energetic process, for want of a better expression it *is* "the force" personified. Anything to do with energetic awareness cannot be fully intellectualised which is why the naysayers are so prominent in the subjective argument.

Hearing and feeling are two different things, it is the hearing - the music that is the stimulus, it is the bodies energetic system that responds to give you the pleasure. Basically Hi-Fi listening is a form of non sexual masturbation.

Your soldering iron has the same potential as the maestros baton. So get weaving with it.

Mike
23-03-2008, 00:07
I was addressing Chris not you.

Yes Richard, I know you were.

But I still admire a man who says what he means and means what he says! Hence the doffed cap!

I also understand your comments on the understanding of the importance of 'breathing', it's a pity so many others do not! ;)

Roll model?... you may be supprised!.... But I guess that's for each to discover for themselves?

WikiBoy
23-03-2008, 00:18
Roll model?... you may be supprised!.... But I guess that's for each to discover for themselves?

Brilliant, I would much prefer to be a roll model than a role model

WikiBoy
23-03-2008, 00:19
I forgot :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Mike
23-03-2008, 00:24
<shrugs>... yeah well, I type like a tw@t! :lolsign:

Anyway, I blame all the 'slurp spiders' (have you seen em all?!!)... they make me nervous!

Also... stop 'viewing poll'... Beavis and Buthead have left the building!

greenhomeelectronics
23-03-2008, 09:55
Some intersting points raised here. Steve was spot on when he mentioned about the cost of running a business in this country. We started out working from a 12 foot square shed in the garden, it was fine for the first couple of months but we outgrew it quickly. We now have very cheap premises - cheap being a comparative term. Outgoings include rent, business rates, ground maintenance charges, building insurance, public liability insurance, stock insurance, internet access, web hosting, phone, mobile phone, advertising, cost of running a vehicle, licence to allow us to store waste electrical items, licence to allow us to transport waste electrical items, the list goes on. People look at what we sell stuff for and what we buy stuff for and think they know what our profit is - they don't - they know our gross margin, the profit is only a small part of that.
We try to offer stuff at a reasonable price, we do our best to offer the best possible customer service. I know we are not your average dealer but can well understand the challenges faced. The cost of doing business in this country is extremely high, blame the government and greedy local councils rather than your struggling hi fi dealer.
There, can of worms stirred :-)
Dave.

griffo104
25-03-2008, 15:41
So Linn and Naim were the hifi mafia ?
Well my Linn dealer came to my house one evening, installed the components, tested them to make sure all was ok and then explained everything to me. 18 months later he returned to do the upgrades in going active. Spent a total of about 7 hours of this in his own time. Of course the HUGE markup on the Linn gear goes towards this but I'm happy it did, he did a much better job than I would have.

I recently purchased a cart and step-up from Japan. Couldn't buy either component in this country and for me that's where the internet has the advantage.

as for the bake-offs, well having attended many over on the Wam I've yet to rush out and swap any of my components for any used in a bake off. Instead I've heard lots of great new music, and subsequently purchased lots, had a good chat with others about hifi and music and generally had a good time. Would I trust these over an hour at a dealership - absolutely not, and, yes, I've been to a bake off where some one from the industry has taken control.

forums are great, they allow you to communicate with like minded people and in some cases allow you to find out about new components and music, but there is a lot of forum fads and fashions and just as much ignorance.

The future isn't quite on the internet yet, thankfully.

WikiBoy
25-03-2008, 16:01
So Linn and Naim were the hifi mafia ?
Well my Linn dealer came to my house one evening, installed the components, tested them to make sure all was ok and then explained everything to me. 18 months later he returned to do the upgrades in going active. Spent a total of about 7 hours of this in his own time. Of course the HUGE markup on the Linn gear goes towards this but I'm happy it did, he did a much better job than I would have.

I recently purchased a cart and step-up from Japan. Couldn't buy either component in this country and for me that's where the internet has the advantage.

as for the bake-offs, well having attended many over on the Wam I've yet to rush out and swap any of my components for any used in a bake off. Instead I've heard lots of great new music, and subsequently purchased lots, had a good chat with others about hifi and music and generally had a good time. Would I trust these over an hour at a dealership - absolutely not, and, yes, I've been to a bake off where some one from the industry has taken control.

forums are great, they allow you to communicate with like minded people and in some cases allow you to find out about new components and music, but there is a lot of forum fads and fashions and just as much ignorance.

The future isn't quite on the internet yet, thankfully.

Thats fine you are just one of the great brainwashed, you will wake up eventually. The whole set up thing was a deliberate tactic, it tied you in psychologically into the process. NLP worked on the dealer and his NLP worked on you. Common sense would mean buying a turntable that didn't require it, though you couldn't listen to it let alone buy one. You are a marketing mans paradise my friend and being an idiot for a large number of years means you have invested yourself in the process, you can't back away, it is like leaving a cult.

Read the threads on the Technics 1210 it might help you break the hold.

griffo104
25-03-2008, 16:08
Thats fine you are just one of the great brainwashed, you will wake up eventually. The whole set up thing was a deliberate tactic, it tied you in psychologically into the process. NLP worked on the dealer and his NLP worked on you. Common sense would mean buying a turntable that didn't require it, though you couldn't listen to it let alone buy one. You are a marketing mans paradise my friend and being an idiot for a large number of years means you have invested yourself in the process, you can't back away, it is like leaving a cult.

Read the threads on the Technics 1210 it might help you break the hold.

Richard, I've heard enough Technics decks to still feel the need to keep my nice non-Linn deck thanks very much.

Was I brainwashed ? I don't think so. I had never actually heard of Linn when I went in to the dealership, I was very new to hifi and after 3 months of visiting dealers this was the first time I actually had a chat with the dealer beforehand who let me explain what I was after. I was happy to make the purchase.

By the way I've had the pleasure of listening to one of you passive pre-amps a couple of time in Bake offs over the last few months, one owner decided to purchase it after hearing it at a bake off, and I've subsequently heard his passive pre at two other bake-offs.

You are quite right that the bake-off is a very good medium to allow you to hear lots of kit, I ould say 2 out of 3 systems your pre made a very good improvementand it was a good learning curve for me.

Brainwashing isn't just done by dealers of certain equipment, forums are just as susceptible to it, it's human nature.

WikiBoy
25-03-2008, 16:24
Richard, I've heard enough Technics decks to still feel the need to keep my nice non-Linn deck thanks very much.

Was I brainwashed ? I don't think so. I had never actually heard of Linn when I went in to the dealership, I was very new to hifi and after 3 months of visiting dealers this was the first time I actually had a chat with the dealer beforehand who let me explain what I was after. I was happy to make the purchase.

By the way I've had the pleasure of listening to one of you passive pre-amps a couple of time in Bake offs over the last few months, one owner decided to purchase it after hearing it at a bake off, and I've subsequently heard his passive pre at two other bake-offs.

You are quite right that the bake-off is a very good medium to allow you to hear lots of kit, I ould say 2 out of 3 systems your pre made a very good improvementand it was a good learning curve for me.

Brainwashing isn't just done by dealers of certain equipment, forums are just as susceptible to it, it's human nature.

Sorry I was a little hard on you, obviously you do listen with at least a degree of open mind. I am just up riding my hobby horse, and getting caried away on the sound of my own voice, a very easy thing to do. This is and has been a slow moving revolution for the last 5 years or so. I just feel that if the runes being thrown at the moment means a one or two year recession then the process will accelerate. My point is that if retailers didn't exist then you would have to rely on fellow enthusiasts and manufacturers, that process would immediately mean you would be paying half as much on average for you specialist hi-fi than if you *have* to buy it through a retailer. Absolutely no disadvantage as most set up things are common sense and like minded people can help online. Peoples minds get set into a *think* so they cannot see hi-fi life without retailers, but without them and a common sense attitude from the manufacturer a £10K system cost £5k.

Steve Toy
25-03-2008, 19:15
Richard, I sincerely hope you are not one of thse individuals who seems to know the cost of everything and the value of nothing. A decent dealer adds value to your purchases that exceeds his markup. Remember with decent hi-fi that enables you to hear and enjoy more of your music, the whole is always greater than the sum of the parts.

I can think of two dealers that genuinely add value to your hi-fi purchases:

Coherent Systems, Malvern Hills

The Audio Works, Cheadle

There are others.

Filterlab
25-03-2008, 19:23
LOL!

I can certainly think of some that detract from the value too. :lol:

Steve Toy
25-03-2008, 19:34
Richard,

Would you shop online for a mortgage or a pension or use an Independent Financial Advisor?

WikiBoy
25-03-2008, 22:12
Richard, I sincerely hope you are not one of thse individuals who seems to know the cost of everything and the value of nothing. A decent dealer adds value to your purchases that exceeds his markup. Remember with decent hi-fi that enables you to hear and enjoy more of your music, the whole is always greater than the sum of the parts.

I can think of two dealers that genuinely add value to your hi-fi purchases:

Coherent Systems, Malvern Hills

The Audio Works, Cheadle

There are others.


How do they do that? by adding extra components or better components? by redesigning the product for you?

This just nonsense, they add nothing, but if you are lucky you may get a bit of *service* from them.

They are retailers, their only purpose is to sell to you and take your money, and make you think you get something in return. It is largely smoke and mirrors. Coherent makes things so he is fine doing that, perhaps he should make more things.

WikiBoy
25-03-2008, 22:17
Richard,

Would you shop online for a mortgage or a pension or use an Independent Financial Advisor?

It depends, but at least they have been trained instead of 16 year old minimum wage idiots and brain washed bullshitters that populate a large proportion of British Hi-Fi shops.

Marco
25-03-2008, 22:36
How do they do that? by adding extra components or better components? by redesigning the product for you?


Oi, SM, you know perfectly well what Steve meant so stop being facetious ;)

I agree with him - a good dealer is worth his weight in gold, for a variety of reasons, although I tend not to use them so much these days.

Tony from Coherent is certainly one of the good guys, and Larry, et al, from The AudioWorks - rarely does anyone 'go the extra mile' for customers more than they do. In my experience, the guys there have a dedication to the cause that's second to none.

There are other good dealers, too. Perhaps someone should start a thread on 'Vote for your favourite UK hi-fi dealer'? - Or somesuch. I'm sure it would be very popular!

Marco.

WikiBoy
25-03-2008, 22:55
Oi, SM, you know perfectly well what Steve meant so stop being facetious ;)

I agree with him - a good dealer is worth his weight in gold, for a variety of reasons, although I tend not to use them so much these days.

Tony from Coherent is certainly one of the good guys, and Larry, et al, from The AudioWorks - rarely does anyone 'go the extra mile' for customers more than they do. In my experience, the guys there have a dedication to the cause that's second to none.

There are other good dealers, too. Perhaps someone should start a thread on 'Vote for your favourite UK hi-fi dealer'? - Or somesuch. I'm sure it would be very popular!

Marco.

SM :confused: facetious :scratch:

A manufacturer makes £100 for designing, building, etc. A retailer makes £150 (of your money) for sitting on his arse and making you feel good when he gets your money :mental:

Marco
25-03-2008, 22:57
Not all retailers "sit on their arse", as you describe. You have a somewhat jaundiced viewpoint on this matter, Richard.

SM = Super Muppet, i.e. YOU.

Facetious? Look it up! ;)

Marco.

WikiBoy
25-03-2008, 23:40
Not all retailers "sit on their arse", as you describe. You have a somewhat jaundiced viewpoint on this matter, Richard.

SM = Super Muppet, i.e. YOU.

Facetious? Look it up! ;)

Marco.

Not jaundiced but realistic.

I worked in electronics and Hi-Fi retail. Part time Saturday lad at G.W.Smith Lisle St, back to them after excursions into Uni (not for me) dropping out, into the 60's thing and repairing marshalls and fenders and vox's and lugging them around on stage brain dead from chemicals. Then the merger with Laskys that formed Audiotronics and the new Lasky's (which was really a Smiths takeover). Shop manager in Lisle St and Edgware Road and then sent up to Leicester to open and manage the shop there and promoted to area manager before moving on to Acoustic Research.

So I know retail, it is hours of boredom followed by frantic activity as they all turn up at once. In those days retail was necessary, there was no other way for manufacturers to sell their products. Now retailers are Dinosaurs, they are dying not only in Hi-Fi, look at the High Street - Coffee Bars, Restuarants, Banks, Building Societies, Estate Agents and Charity Shops. In the next 10 years the High Street and the Hi-Fi Industry will look totally different to now in terms of how it is sold, but the specialist product will be *very* similar in concept as it has been for the last over 20 years.

Retailers were a necessary evil, now they are an unnecessary evil, and both they and their apologists are struggling like mad to justify the unjustifiable. Money and value always dictates, they are losing it now and that process can only progress.

Chris Frost
26-03-2008, 01:35
Is it possible that retail has changed a bit in the 30+ years since you were involved at the coal face?

Mike
26-03-2008, 05:53
involved at the coal face?

Aaaarrrggghhh!!!!.......'Management speak'!!! <runs away at great speed>

:lolsign:

griffo104
26-03-2008, 09:23
Sorry I was a little hard on you, obviously you do listen with at least a degree of open mind. I am just up riding my hobby horse, and getting caried away on the sound of my own voice, a very easy thing to do. This is and has been a slow moving revolution for the last 5 years or so. I just feel that if the runes being thrown at the moment means a one or two year recession then the process will accelerate. My point is that if retailers didn't exist then you would have to rely on fellow enthusiasts and manufacturers, that process would immediately mean you would be paying half as much on average for you specialist hi-fi than if you *have* to buy it through a retailer. Absolutely no disadvantage as most set up things are common sense and like minded people can help online. Peoples minds get set into a *think* so they cannot see hi-fi life without retailers, but without them and a common sense attitude from the manufacturer a £10K system cost £5k.

Richard, don't worry you weren't hard on me, just trying to get your point of view across, perfectly ok.

In some respects I agree totally with you. The last few components I've bought have been ex-review phono bought direct from the distributor with a serious saving to me, a cdp bought 2nd hand and again at a serious saving and a cart/step-up bought from Japan and not available in this country.

All 3 were bought via the internet, some direct fromthe shopping trolley such as the cart/step-up some advertised on the web and subsequently ordered over the phone.

Did I need a dealer to purchase these componets ? Not really. they were cheap enough that I was confident I would get my money back by using the web to sell them on myself. The componets are all still in my system so the gamble paid off and they are superior to the components they replaced, imo of course and excepting the cart which was more to have a play :)

For me hifi dealers lost their way when AV became the big money spinner and too many decided hifi wasn't important.

As for the setup, well things were a bit different then. I didn't hang around on hifi fourms, didn't know the importance of speaker positioning and things like that. My speakers are still in same position that Linn dealer placed, and I have tried after reading and talking to others, but they still sound best where the dealer set them up.

I do agree that a lot of hifi can be overpriced, some manufacturers who decided to ship the manufacturing to China and yet increase their prices are the most annoying, some of these established uk manufacturers.

I see you sell on ebay, but after my ebay account was hacked and subsequently my email and then they went after my Paypal I decided never to use Ebay again, especially with how difficult they can make it to get you back on line sometimes. this for me is still the major failing of the internet and when trust goes then you will look elsewhere.

Marco
26-03-2008, 09:42
Not jaundiced but realistic.


Nope, I still say jaundiced; precisely because of your past experiences which have tainted your view of things seemingly forever...

Realistic? Perhaps the majority are as you describe, but you can't tar all retailers with the same brush!

The fact is there are quite a few UK hi-fi dealers who are genuine enthusiasts like you or I. The only difference is they have a shop and are trying hard to make an honest living whilst selling something they're passionate about.

Hint: It might help your argument if you were just a teensy bit more reasonable ;)

Marco.

WikiBoy
26-03-2008, 11:15
Nope, I still say jaundiced; precisely because of your past experiences which have tainted your view of things seemingly forever...

Realistic? Perhaps the majority are as you describe, but you can't tar all retailers with the same brush!

The fact is there are quite a few UK hi-fi dealers who are genuine enthusiasts like you or I. The only difference is they have a shop and are trying hard to make an honest living whilst selling something they're passionate about.

Hint: It might help your argument if you were just a teensy bit more reasonable ;)

Marco.

Not unreasonable, all retailers are tared with the same brush. They took the devils shilling. True enthusiast are like Shian7, they take up the soldering iron (one sort) or concentrate on music like Gromit and Jerry (the other sort).

As soon as it is a living you kill it. Yet lots want to turn it to a living - become reviewer - become retailer - become forum owner :lol::doh:: Then you have to create more - more reviews and companies giving me product - more customers and turnover and more profit - more members and more chances of slurp.

I do not only dig at retailers, it is the slurping triumverate I rant at - marketing men - magazines / reviewers - distributors / retailers. They are on-costs, wastes of time and space and wastes of your money. Their functions are migrating to the web (apart from marketing men, and they really have no sensible function apart from irritation). My original point in the rant thread was that *some* forum owners want to turn it into a quad-verate (no such word) of troughees (no such word).

Again my point is there are only two important things, people who design and build product and people who use product. Everything else is on-cost.

WikiBoy
26-03-2008, 11:27
I see you sell on ebay, but after my ebay account was hacked and subsequently my email and then they went after my Paypal I decided never to use Ebay again, especially with how difficult they can make it to get you back on line sometimes. this for me is still the major failing of the internet and when trust goes then you will look elsewhere.

Ebay is learning and changing, it started as a poor mans junk / pawn shop, so it is hard to lose that image. It attracted the modern day spivs and wide men. It takes a while to lose an image but the latest changes are going that way and they are finally solving the spammers / frauds problem. Ebay just takes a little common sense like most things. I use it for a very simple reason, my on-costs and work load to sell is very low compared with everything else, so I have more time to design and build, which is what I want to do, and I am determined not to hire on-costs to do it for me. Ebay / Paypal even virtually run my sales invoicing and accounts for me. I just only need to keep a simple quickbooks record for my manufacturing costs and overheads.

Basically I am a simple little man looking for a simple life. :smoking:

Steve Toy
26-03-2008, 11:35
Coherent makes things so he is fine doing that, perhaps he should make more things.

Audio Works also makes things. They have that in common too.

Rick O
26-03-2008, 11:35
Not unreasonable, all retailers are tared with the same brush.
That's a hell of a generalisation.

As for ebay; it's brilliant as long as you don't want any service included.

WikiBoy
26-03-2008, 11:45
That's a hell of a generalisation.

As for ebay; it's brilliant as long as you don't want any service included.

What service :scratch: it is a direct selling method - the service is down to the seller. That is why the feedback and the new star system so you see a record and a reputation.

StanleyB
26-03-2008, 11:55
I have few complaints about eBay. Damn good portal to my own website:eyebrows:.

I have been asked many times why I don't increase my sales by selling to retailers. Well frankly my dear, I don't give a damn about retailers wanting to do business with me. They want 60% margin, may pay in 60 to 90 days, and want coverage on postage etc of goods returned as faulty. Some even demand compensation if goods cannot be supplied, and they won't accept price increases no matter if production cost go up.

The only downside of selling direct is that the goods can be sold in a lower price range. It is a sad fact of life that a lower price is seen as an inferior product. I have learnt from that, so some of my next items will reluctantly see a price hike so that I can bank all that extra money with tears in my eyes. If I don't increase the prices I won't gain respect and see a flood of punters beating a path to my door. It's a mad world out there, but bragging factor about how much one spent on their equipment is still king:(.

Chris Frost
26-03-2008, 12:21
Again my point is there are only two important things, people who design and build product and people who use product. Everything else is on-cost.Who says that every audio designer also wants to be the guy responsible for selling, packaging, administering etc?

Chris Frost
26-03-2008, 12:25
It is a sad fact of life that a lower price is seen as an inferior product. I have learnt from that, so some of my next items will reluctantly see a price hike so that I can bank all that extra money with tears in my eyes. If I don't increase the prices I won't gain respect and see a flood of punters beating a path to my door. It's a mad world out there, but bragging factor about how much one spent on their equipment is still king:(.Now that is interesting. So one of your biggest challenges is getting people to appreciate the quality despite the price.

StanleyB
26-03-2008, 14:08
Now that is interesting. So one of your biggest challenges is getting people to appreciate the quality despite the price.
Nope, in my case it is the other way round. Getting people to appreciate the low price, despite the high quality. THE most common comment levelled against my product is that how excellent it is for such an unbelievably low price. That basically says it all as far as pricing pitch is concerned. Some punters on some forums go as far as to mention that they are looking for a similar product that cost a bit more:scratch:.

It reminds me of two guys at my former workplace. One had a Jag and the other an Aston. Both looked alike and both were Ford cars. But the fact that one was more expensive made it the more popular invite at lunch time.

Mike
26-03-2008, 16:57
THE most common comment levelled against my product is that how excellent it is for such an unbelievably low price.

Point me in the direction of your 'product' please so that I have a clue!

:scratch:

snapper
26-03-2008, 17:03
Point me in the direction of your 'product' please so that I have clue!

:scratch:


http://www.homehifi.co.uk/main/main.html

HTH

And currently it's being used in my system,making a Perpetual Technologies DAC and upsampler redundant.

:smoking:

WikiBoy
26-03-2008, 23:13
There are lots on ebay like Sensi and me, mostly home cable makers but others are coming up with things. Also lots of kit bits appearing, including rip off copy boards from China, which I don't really approve of :( but copy Naim amp boards for £20-£30 :eyebrows::doh::scratch::confused::mental::ner:

Mike
26-03-2008, 23:20
http://www.homehifi.co.uk/main/main.html

HTH

And currently it's being used in my system,making a Perpetual Technologies DAC and upsampler redundant.

:smoking:

Ahh! Right, I see, I've seen that before and now I know why there's a new version every other week or so!

:lolsign:

Marco
27-03-2008, 09:16
Tell him to sell it on ebay - forget the dealers, they screwed him the last time.

What are you like? :lol:

Not every bugger wants to buy their hi-fi from Fleabay!

Marco.

WikiBoy
27-03-2008, 10:53
Hi Richard,

You say it as you see it and I like that, don't get me wrong I am not against ebay. I myself have sold hundreds of hifi related items on ebay to all corners of the globe (username "matodono1").

Not only that but I have helped a number of my web clients market on ebay including a stonemason client of mine trying to sell gravestones (which almost succeeded if you can believe that).

Arthur K of the funk firm has sold loads of Achromats and Achroplats on ebay with listings that I designed, but that is as far as he can go. If he starts selling TT's direct he risks losing all of his dealers.

Unfortunately most people who spend more than £500 on a hifi product want to try before they buy and for that you need dealers. Selling new and unknown products on the internet (even if they are backed by positive reviews) is a big ask.

So the dealers are needed and ebay and dealers don't mix.

If your experience is different then I am all ears as I don't wish to miss any marketing tricks.

Thanks again,

Matt.

It is all in the archives.

The future IMO is web, forum, bakeoff, customer / enthusiast based. Retailers are dying ducks and anything dying will try to protect its territory during its death throws.

It is not there yet but this current recession should accelerate it.

Arthur should bite the bullet and go direct, what is the point in trying to compete with Linn BS and their dealers NLP, they are dying and will strike out at anything to protect themselves (as I understand he is experiencing). Start now and he can grow with the new way.

WikiBoy
27-03-2008, 10:58
What are you like? :lol:

Not every bugger wants to buy their hi-fi from Fleabay!

Marco.

You know perfectly well ebay is a channel not the principle.

It is the principle I am pushing, ebay will have to change to meet customer asperations, and it seems it sees this and is changing. It is a very convenient and easy channel at the moment but if you want more work then do it via your own website and make the promotion and marketing *customer* based as opposed to retailer based. Price is premium during recession.

You know it makes sense.

WikiBoy
27-03-2008, 11:10
BUMP!:bag:

Come on anyone not voted yet.

Yer read the argument, you have your own experience so :eyebrows:

It is running neck and neck *you* can decide the outcome :respect:

Steve Toy
27-03-2008, 11:23
I'd certainly like better channels than Fleabay. We need dealers and they need to be good by adding value.

I'd certainly like to be rid of the box-shifty dealers.

Marco
27-03-2008, 11:55
In some ways it undoubtedly makes sense, Richard, but it's by no means a universal panacea for manufacturers selling their products.

There is without doubt still a place for good knowledgeable dealers who know their (carefully selected) product range inside out and who can thus offer customers excellent advice and service. Trust me, places like this do exist! ;)

You'll love this (not), but it's my belief that Ebay buying is responsible for why many people are unhappy with their hi-fi systems, and are constantly changing their equipment, chasing 'audiophile nirvana'. There is a lot of dissatisfaction out there amongst hi-fi enthusiasts, which is obvious from reading various forums, and it's because people are seeking a 'quick fix' as cheaply as possible. Well, unfortunately, it's not always as simple that!

Assembling a synergistically-matched musically rewarding hi-fi system is not just a matter of buying equipment cheaply from Ebay and flinging it together hoping that it will work - it's about knowing what components synergise musically with each other, and what cables, stands, and any other essential ancillaries bring out the best in those components to make a system work. Furthermore, it's about knowing how to set it all up correctly to ensure everything performs as it should do.

The fact is that a good dealer (such as I have described above) is in many cases much more able to carry out the above effectively than someone who doesn't have the necessary knowledge and experience, and this quite rightly reflects the premium you pay for such service and expertise. Don't get me wrong, the ones that actually offer this type of service are sadly in the minority, as so many will sell you anything and just see you as a pound sign, but good dealers do exist and they are more numerous than you think.

Remember also that many people enjoy the facility of being able to listen to equipment at a dealer’s premises, and then obtaining a home trial of said equipment, if it suggests promise when auditioned - all without being charged a penny first, before buying. This facility is quite normal for a customer once a rapport has been established with a particular dealer. In those circumstances it is indeed how I always do business, and I expect and have no problem with being charged for it.

The best things in life are worth taking time over. One could say buy in haste, repent at leisure...

Marco.

Marco
27-03-2008, 12:09
I'd certainly like to be rid of the box-shifty dealers.

Me too. They give everyone else a bad name and do bugger all to help genuine enthusiasts.

Marco.

Filterlab
27-03-2008, 12:40
...You'll love this (not), but it's my belief that Ebay buying is responsible for why many people are unhappy with their hi-fi systems, and are constantly changing their equipment, chasing 'audiophile nirvana'....

I have to agree with Marco here. I watch certain ebay selections (search criteria) quite a lot and I'm amazed at how many usernames I see and recognise as repeated buyers and sellers. I sold my Audiolab pre-amp some time ago and within 5 days it was back on sale, chap didn't like it and was going to try something else. Thing is if he'd have listened to it first he could have saved himself all the bother of buying and selling etc etc. I've known a few circumstances of that.

It's great if box swapping is a hobby (like Jerry's), but most audiophiles want a system they're happy with - and a dealer is the only way to experience that BEFORE parting with money.

Saying that I've bought a lot of hi-fi from ebay and it's a great place to find unusual equipment that one would probably have a hard time finding otherwise. However I've always listened before purchasing.

Richard I know you have your full moneyback guarantee which shows the faith you have in your products, but most manufactures and sellers don't offer this and so the risk increases that one will be unsatisfied in the long run.

I stand in both camps, I can see where Marco is coming from and I can certainly see where Richard is coming from - both have their merits. However with most folk (non-audiophiles) choosing convenience over outright quality, web purchasing makes a whole lot of sense. :)

WikiBoy
27-03-2008, 12:45
In some ways it undoubtedly makes sense, Richard, but it's by no means a universal panacea for manufacturers selling their products.

There is without doubt still a place for good knowledgeable dealers who know their (carefully selected) product range inside out and who can thus offer customers excellent advice and service. Trust me, places like this do exist! ;)

You'll love this (not), but it's my belief that Ebay buying is responsible for why many people are unhappy with their hi-fi systems, and are constantly changing their equipment, chasing 'audiophile nirvana'. There is a lot of dissatisfaction out there amongst hi-fi enthusiasts, which is obvious from reading various forums, and it's because people are seeking a 'quick fix' as cheaply as possible. Well, unfortunately, it's not always as simple that!

Assembling a synergistically-matched musically rewarding hi-fi system is not just a matter of buying equipment cheaply from Ebay and flinging it together hoping that it will work - it's about knowing what components synergise musically with each other, and what cables, stands, and any other essential ancillaries bring out the best in those components to make a system work. Furthermore, it's about knowing how to set it all up correctly to ensure everything performs as it should do.

The fact is that a good dealer (such as I have described above) is in many cases much more able to carry out the above effectively than someone who doesn't have the necessary knowledge and experience, and this quite rightly reflects the premium you pay for such service and expertise. Don't get me wrong, the ones that actually offer this type of service are sadly in the minority, as so many will sell you anything and just see you as a pound sign, but good dealers do exist and they are more numerous than you think.

Remember also that many people enjoy the facility of being able to listen to equipment at a dealer’s premises, and then obtaining a home trial of said equipment, if it suggests promise when auditioned - all without being charged a penny first, before buying. This facility is quite normal for a customer once a rapport has been established with a particular dealer. In those circumstances it is indeed how I always do business, and I expect and have no problem with being charged for it.

The best things in life are worth taking time over. One could say buy in haste, repent at leisure...

Marco.

Sorry but this is complete and absolute nonsense. There are far more people who buy on ebay who have had far more opportunity to get a good system. Some of them even make a hobby out of the process like Jerry. You buy - you no like - you sell - in some case for loss in some for profit. It is just swings and roundabouts. Buy from a retailer and find it is a mistake and try to sell it and you will probably get half of what you paid for it - because that is its true value :doh:

Dealers no longer serve a purpose, they used to be a necessary evil but are slowly becoming redundant. You are stuck in the past Marco.

Service will be provided by manufacturers and choice will be a function of community. You are doing it here already, you are taking the function of retail and magazines in providing information and community. It is just a couple of steps further, steps that are being taken at wigwam and others will follow.

Who do you think will give you accurate information, an enthusiastic or not user, or retailer who hasn't had his daily slurp. It's a no brainer.

Marco
27-03-2008, 13:09
Sorry but this is complete and absolute nonsense.

I'm sorry, but it isn't - it's the result of my (and others) experience!

Read what Rob has to say.

Richard, you do your things your way; that's fine. But I would not buy and sell hi-fi equipment the way you describe, and I know plenty of others like me who agree ;)

Good luck to those who do it your way, and enjoy it, though!

Marco.

WikiBoy
27-03-2008, 14:07
I'm sorry, but it isn't - it's the result of my (and others) experience!

Read what Rob has to say.

Richard, you do your things your way; that's fine. But I would not buy and sell hi-fi equipment the way you describe, and I know plenty of others like me who agree ;)

Good luck to those who do it your way, and enjoy it, though!

Marco.

OK, so pay 100% more than it is worth - your loss!

Marco
27-03-2008, 14:14
Not at all, and I don't mind paying extra for good service and peace of mind.

If you audition equipment carefully enough in the first place, and make sure what you're buying is what you want (long term), then there is no such loss. I'm not into 'box-swapping', like Jerry. Good luck to him, though!

It's the reason why I rarely change my equipment - because I'm thorough and time to make sure I've made the right decision when making a purchase, and as such am 100% satisfied with my system.

When the times comes to sell equipment on, it won't owe me anything ;)

Your way is risky and too much of a bloody headache (for me anyway)!! :lol:

Marco.

WikiBoy
27-03-2008, 14:42
Not at all, and I don't mind paying extra for good service and peace of mind.

If you audition equipment carefully enough in the first place, and make sure what you're buying is what you want (long term), then there is no such loss. I'm not into 'box-swapping', like Jerry. Good luck to him, though!

It's the reason why I rarely change my equipment - because I'm thorough and time to make sure I've made the right decision when making a purchase, and as such am 100% satisfied with my system.

When the times comes to sell equipment on, it won't owe me anything ;)

Your way is risky and too much of a bloody headache (for me anyway)!! :lol:

Marco.

Again nonsense - zero risk with new product and fun with second hand product.

By law you have to have 30day return for full refund if entering into an on-line contract. Your loss with some people is P&P, but that is about the same as petrol etc to go for dems, and dems mean nothing. You name me a retailer who will allow you to return goods at 30days for full refund :confused: If any few and far between. You really do not know much in the first few days let alone hours and minutes. Any hi-end piece of equipment will take at least a week to come on song and show its potential, so infact on-line would be a far more accurate and safe way to assess product.

Headache - sitting on computer, listening to others talk about the product you are interested in, maybe going round to a fellow member and having a listen, buying on line and knowing you can return at 30 days for full refund AND paying half the price.

Headache - Phoning around retailers for advice, reading magazines. Selecting a retailer, going to the shop for dem, having the gear at home for a couple of days before having to return it, AND paying twice the price.

I ask the forum which headache is the more acceptable, as I said - a no brainer.

Mike
27-03-2008, 14:56
If budget is any consideration at all (and it always is with me), then IMHO on-line wins every time.

I know other won't agree, but..... <shrugs>

Steve Toy
27-03-2008, 15:01
OK, so pay 100% more than it is worth - your loss!

Richard,

You have now clearly answered my question; you are indeed one of those fellows who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.

I suspect however that yours may actually be a jaundiced view - one that stems from too many temper tantrums that may have cut you and your products off from the market place via the more conventional routes.

Marco
27-03-2008, 15:07
Richard,

What are you like! :lol:

Why is everything you don't agree with always "nonsense"?

There *is* a risk doing things your way because you never know 100% for sure if you'll manage to sell unwanted equipment, and whether or not you'll take a loss on it. I can't be arsed farting about like that, unboxing stuff, boxing it back up, and shipping it. I don't consider it "fun"!!

I know people who do things your way and their living rooms look like dealer demo rooms with all their unwanted (unsold) gear strewn across the floor!

If I'm going to use a dealer my buying procedure is thus:

1) Identify equipment wanted and find a dealer who stocks it.

2) Phone up or email said dealer and arrange an audition.

3) Listen to said equipment with my own music and if it shows promise arrange a home trial to assess said equipment in my own system (minimum period one week).

4) After trial period is over, decide to buy equipment or not. If I decide to buy equipment I return the demo stock to the dealer and place an order for said equipment and pay, or buy the demo stock (if available) at a reduced price. He might even have some second-hand equipment I like that is fully guaranteed ;)

5) When in possession of said equipment, set it up, press 'play' and enjoy beautiful music :smoking:

I don't care what it costs or what inconvenience this procedure entails in the short term, because in the long term I know if I've been thorough that I'm guaranteed musical satisfaction and thus will save a fortune on constant 'upgrades' and/or buying and selling unwanted equipment :eyebrows:

Marco [Who's owned his CD player for 3 years, his preamp and power amp for 4 years, his T/T for 1.5 years, and his speakers for 8 years, and NEVER complains on forums about problems with his system] ;)

Prince of Darkness
27-03-2008, 15:07
Richard,

You have now clearly answered my question; you are indeed one of those fellows who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.



If anything, I would have said the reverse was true.

Marco
27-03-2008, 15:11
If budget is any consideration at all (and it always is with me), then IMHO on-line wins every time.


Of course budget is a consideration. With me, though, if I can't afford what I really want then I save up until I can, otherwise I do without.

Marco.

P.S One other point I would add for everyone is that dealers are very good at sussing out serious buyers from time wasters, and this is reflected in their willingness or not to offer (longer) equipment home-demos. Fortunately, I've somehow managed to have no problems arranging such demos ;)

Mike
27-03-2008, 15:25
OK... no problem.

Let's try a little experiment. Recommend a piece of equipment to me, say, a cartridge for instance. And tell me how much you would expect to pay for it?

:eyebrows:

P.S. Isn't this getting a bit off topic ? :)

WikiBoy
27-03-2008, 15:42
OK point by point.

Richard,

What are you like! :lol:

A really nice and honest bloke!


Why is everything you don't agree with always "nonsense"?

Because it is - it beyond the stage of being mistaken.


There *is* a risk doing things your way because you never know 100% for sure if you'll manage to sell unwanted equipment, and whether or not you'll take a loss on it. I can't be arsed farting about like that, unboxing stuff, boxing it back up, and shipping it. I don't consider it "fun"!!"

No difference with a on-line retail contract to a High St retail contract, same laws apply. You still have to pack, but from retail you have to take it back. From on-line it is collected from you. Selling unwanted equipement is the same either way, but if you pay twice as much for it you are sure of a hit to your pocket.


I know people who do things your way and their living rooms look like dealer demo rooms with all their unwanted (unsold) gear strewn across the floor!

So this defeats your previous argument that you don't get enough choice to compare at home on-line, so which is your argument.


If I'm going to use a dealer my buying procedure is thus:

1) Identify equipment wanted and find a dealer who stocks it.

2) Phone up or email said dealer and arrange an audition.

3) Listen to said equipment with my own music and if it shows promise arrange a home trial to assess said equipment in my own system (minimum period one week).

4) After trial period is over, decide to buy equipment or not. If I decide to buy equipment I return the demo stock to the dealer and place an order for said equipment and pay, or buy the demo stock (if available) at a reduced price. He might even have some second-hand equipment I like that is fully guaranteed ;)

5) When in possession of said equipment, set it up, press 'play' and enjoy beautiful music :smoking:

No different to on-line you can do the same and have the same, but without having to leave your home - and you pay half as much - no brainer.


I don't care what it costs or what inconvenience this procedure entails in the short term, because in the long term I know if I've been thorough that I'm guaranteed musical satisfaction and thus will save a fortune on constant 'upgrades' and/or buying and selling unwanted equipment :eyebrows

More fool you, you are not typical, and constant upgraing is disease that follows this idustry no matter where you buy it from, no difference.

:
Marco [Who's owned his CD player for 3 years, his preamp and power amp for 4 years, his T/T for 1.5 years, and his speakers for 8 years, and NEVER complains on forums about problems with his system] ;)

You are arguing a lost cause, it matter not how long you have kept it or anything you say here - the same applies to you where ever you buy - it is not an argument for retailing. If you could buy your new car on line for half price would you go to a car showroom - no - and it will get to that industry eventually as well.

Marco
27-03-2008, 15:44
Oh yes, cartridge recommendations...sorry, I must get to that! ;)

As for the discussion being off-topic, you're right, so I'll attend to it later.

The off-topic stuff will end up in Richard's 'ranting room' :lolsign:

Marco.

Marco
27-03-2008, 15:51
To cut to the chase:

Richard,


You are arguing a lost cause...


Hahaha... Never a truer word was said - you're far too stubborn and pig-headed to be rational!


you are not typical


No, thank God for that, and nor will I ever be as far as your kind of buying and selling world goes ;)

One small point, though, when buying new, good dealers will DELIVER and INSTALL the equipment as part of their service (even just to audition if you're an existing customer), so once the order is placed you don't have to leave your armchair (except to eat, have a shit, etc, etc,). Stick that up your pipe and smoke it, baby! :)

Anyway, this discussion is going round in circles so it ends here. Subject closed until I tidy up the 'debris' and get the thread back on-topic!

Marco.

WikiBoy
27-03-2008, 17:19
BUMP!:bag:

Come on anyone not voted yet.

Yer read the argument, you have your own experience so :eyebrows:

It is running neck and neck *you* can decide the outcome :respect:

Fascinating result so far, especially considering we have 12 dealers here registered as trade members.:doh::ner::p

StanleyB
27-03-2008, 18:18
Ahh! Right, I see, I've seen that before and now I know why there's a new version every other week or so!

:lolsign:
These are the kind of lies that I strongly object to.
There were loads of recommendations and help from my initial buyers on how to make my DAC more popular if I could improve some of the initial short comings. I finally got it right last year September and subsequently released the MK6/3. That has been described as being damn close to the Chord64, etc. It has been out since October 2007 and is selling quite well. Even got Disney to order some, plus various radio and TV stations. They love the price versus performance and order them in quantity from me. So the suggestion that I release another one every week is a total slur, and one of the reason I mentioned to Marco why I wasn't keen to get involved on any more forums. Your position as moderator should bring with it a greater sense of responsibility, instead of driving us out of the market with dishonest claims. Is that the aim of the forum?
I got my enemies, but name me any other British DAC that beats the hell out of the Chinese and US offerings in terms of performance at student wages prices. Even my digital coax at less than £20 puts many 3 figure sum leads to shame and sells in fast quantities, but never gets mentioned in any lead discussion. The big names have been creaming the wallets of you guys, and slagging my products off is one way to keep you in their pocket. With a little help from their friends on forums...

Filterlab
27-03-2008, 18:24
...Headache - sitting on computer, listening to others talk about the product you are interested in...

No worse than stating your point of view on a forum. :D


Headache...reading magazines...

I must admit I love reading my monthly issue of Hi-Fi Choice - excellent for keeping abreast of the ever changing world of hi-fi.

:)

Mike
27-03-2008, 18:48
Tut Tut Tut!...

First of notice the 'LOL' sign matey!

Second it was in no way a criticism, I'm very much interested in buying one in fact, remember our PM's a short while ago when you offered me a demo?

The comment I made is based entirely on your forum user name and what it implies (to me at least)... 'Sensimilia' a much sought after, err, 'plant with certain properties', some of which may induce the need to fiddle/tweak stuff.

Chill out Bud (err, no pun intended).

:peace:

WikiBoy
27-03-2008, 23:58
Tut Tut Tut!...

First of notice the 'LOL' sign matey!

Second it was in no way a criticism, I'm very much interested in buying one in fact, remember our PM's a short while ago when you offered me a demo?

The comment I made is based entirely on your forum user name and what it implies (to me at least)... 'Sensimilia' a much sought after, err, 'plant with certain properties', some of which may induce the need to fiddle/tweak stuff.

Chill out Bud (err, no pun intended).

:peace:

Have some understanding for the poor sod he has been subject to some severe libel and objectionable pandering to the industry insiders incumbent on wigwam, or as I call them the £50ers. AND the management there yet again succumbed - slurp slurp.

Look back in the archive I came here incognito with the same paranoid attitude to forums from my experience. I was pursuaded this one was different, so we have to pursued this guy. We know who he is now. I know you weren't dissing the guy and anyway it was me who made the first joke here at him being up to Mk 15.5, so I will apologise first - sorry mate, just my stupid sense of humour.

The industry is largely made up of manipulative bastards, but that is only 'cos they are now running scared. We all should have some sympathy for them, not long now, their time is running out, they feel the fear :lol::lol:

WikiBoy
28-03-2008, 01:10
The industry is largely made up of manipulative bastards, but that is only 'cos they are now running scared. We all should have some sympathy for them, not long now, their time is running out, they feel the fear :lol::lol:

Oh and BTW - before you missinterpret again Sensi (which in Japanese means teacher - master :eyebrows::)) I am not refering to you but the bastards who orchestrated the attacks on you (and me BTW) - we know who they are :smoking:

Marco
28-03-2008, 08:41
Look back in the archive I came here incognito with the same paranoid attitude to forums from my experience


You certainly did. I remember those 'dark' days...

Now you're part of the furniture ;)

Marco.

Filterlab
28-03-2008, 09:14
Now that's low blow... especially as the thread has been locked and there's no chance of reply ;)

It wasn't aimed at Richard specifically. Maybe I should have written "No worse than stating one's point of view on a forum."

:)

Marco
28-03-2008, 09:37
...especially as the thread has been locked and there's no chance of reply.


Now reopened, but I'm keeping an eye on the direction the discussion takes ;)

Marco.

Mike
29-03-2008, 13:38
Thread tidied at Richard's request.

Marco
29-03-2008, 13:44
LOL. Keen, aren't you?

Do your job properly though and clear up the leftovers! ;)

Marco.

Mike
29-03-2008, 14:21
Do your job properly though and clear up the leftovers! ;)

Marco.

Marco, I can only 'soft delete' mate.

Marco
29-03-2008, 14:27
Ah, ok... We might have to look at that :)

I'll rub out the rest, then.

Marco.

Filterlab
29-03-2008, 14:40
I've just swept up the last two. Only Administrators can hard delete.

WikiBoy
29-03-2008, 14:54
I've just swept up the last two. Only Administrators can hard delete.

Do you have to be a pervert to be admin.

All this hard or soft wankinhg and magazines. AND now you want to pervert my poor little apprentice.:eek::o

All I want to do is put a mains plug in his ear, but you two tut tut tut!!!

Filterlab
29-03-2008, 15:10
Not sure I follow, but hey ho. :)

Marco
29-03-2008, 15:11
Tee hee...

Rob,

Can Super Mods not 'hard' delete? :)

Marco.

Filterlab
29-03-2008, 15:23
Not a clue, possibly but I haven't looked into that, only the permissions for normal mods.

Alan
29-03-2008, 15:32
There seems to be a generalisation in this thread that internet retailers/manufacturers can or do offer almost no service at all, this being the main reason why this (not yet fully fledged) revolution in Hifi retail won't succeed. Not my experience at all:

I will get no thanks for bringing these examples up, but Stan's service from Homehifi was excellent, even recommending and sourcing a BNC/phono adaptor for my Cambridge CD6 last year (it should have had phono fitted). You may laugh, but I hadn't seen a BNC connection before - why should I have done? - But Stan didn't make me feel awkward about my ignorance at all. Nor did he charge me. I cannot give any endorsements of similar nature to a dealer near me, who seemed to disdain anyone without their knowledge(?) of this seasons gear. I am a happy Beresford 6/3 owner, and I heard about it in Forums.:)

I have to say that Richard with NVA also has gone far and beyond the bounds of mere 'service', even bailing me out of a serious mis-judgement on my part with a second hand purchase gone wrong. I cannot imagine recieving such attention at 90% of dealers (or anyone else) as it took time, hassle and left him out of pocket. It is along story, Which I will not recount as it may open floodgates for Richard, but it culminated in a very happy listener indeed. Yet the dealer I mentioned charged a fortune for some terminations a while back and left me feeling I had been taken for a ride.:steam::

So as far as certain dealers 'add' value with good service, certain manufacturers do also, and without the extra cost.:)

I'm not saying one way is better than the other, I don't have the experience for that; but as a music lover (with an interest in hifi) on a budget, I welcome this new approach, and not just as an angry, overcharged punter or a professional who seeks to influence a change for the better, but as a newcomer.:wave:

It really does (and will) work.:cool:

Marco
29-03-2008, 15:43
Good post, Alan.

The thing is, as long as you're dealing with genuine people like Stan and Richard you won't go wrong. Whether they're running their businesses on-line or from a retail premises, their values remain the same.

However this also applies to many good dealers up and down the country who operate from a high street shop. Unfortunately you don't seem to have encountered them.

Marco.

WikiBoy
29-03-2008, 16:45
Good post, Alan.

The thing is, as long as you're dealing with genuine people like Stan and Richard you won't go wrong. Whether they're running their businesses on-line or from a retail premises, their values remain the same.

However this also applies to many good dealers up and down the country who operate from a high street shop. Unfortunately you don't seem to have encountered them.

Marco.

But then they charge twice as much for doing it - you cannot get over this fact Marco, no matter how you try.

Marco
29-03-2008, 16:55
You keep going on about price.

Price isn't the be-all-and-end-all of everything, Richard.

You're just on a 'crusade' and can't admit there are *some* knowledgeable and genuine dealers out there, but I'm not going to get into another argument with you about it :)

Marco.

WikiBoy
29-03-2008, 17:04
You keep going on about price.

Price isn't the be-all-and-end-all of everything, Richard.

You're just on a 'crucade' and can't admit there are *some* knowledgeable and genuine dealers out there, but I'm not going to get into another argument with you about it :)

Marco.

I might go on a "crucade" if I knew what it was, but I definitely wouldn't be on a crook-ade which it seems most hi-fi retailers are on :lolsign:

LOGIC - same service and no disadvantages, as Allan stresses, but twice the price - there is *no* saving argument from this fact.

Marco
29-03-2008, 17:16
Sorry, typo!

Whatever keeps you happy. As I said, I won't be arguing with you round and round in circles about it.

I think you need a new 'ranting' subject though, as this one has been done to death and most people are bored with it now. You might wish to bear this in mind ;)

Marco.

WikiBoy
29-03-2008, 17:39
Sorry, typo!

Whatever keeps you happy. As I said, I won't be arguing with you round and round in circles about it.

I think you need a new 'ranting' subject though, as this one has been done to death and most people are bored with it now. You might wish to bear this in mind ;)

Marco.

I shall never get over ranting about this one until like the dinosaurs they are consigned to bones in museums. Anyway you keep feeding me lines, so I have to respond. :mental:

Anyway basic misconception, I am not here to entertain others - but to entertain myself. :ner:

Marco
29-03-2008, 18:13
Here's another 'line' for you to chew on, Richard, and it's my last on this subject.

From this month's Hi-fi News magazine in the 'Hi-fi @ Home' article, where a reader's system is featured every month:

The reader, John, says about his dealer (Trevor Martin from Guildford Audio - someone I have also dealt with on a regular basis; and a member of this forum):


With hi-fi it's not so much what's good and bad, it's about what synergises. There's lots of good kit about, but it has to be properly matched. And that's where a really good dealer will help, by going to some lengths to get it right. Trevor is very good at that.


Hear, hear!

Well done, Trevor - and he's not alone ;)

Marco.

WikiBoy
29-03-2008, 18:38
Here's another 'line' for you to chew on, Richard, and it's my last on this subject.

From this month's Hi-fi News magazine in the 'Hi-fi @ Home' article, where a reader's system is featured every month:

The reader, John, says about his dealer (Trevor Martin from Guildford Audio - someone I have also dealt with on a regular basis; and a member of this forum):



Hear, hear!

Well done, Trevor :)

Marco.

So one part of the mafia is telling you how brilliant another part of the mafia is. "Now where is my advertising" slurp slurp!

This is the major problem in the industry - people who set themselves up as experts with minimal knowledge, next to no technical savvy, but a good line in marketing bullshit. That is the motivation in becoming a retailer - to sell. Everything else about themselves and their abilities is *marketing*.

Anyone apart from a total newby has the basics of what is needed to match equipment and if they haven't then they have two strange things on the sides of their heads to help them. Why do you think punters should rely on proxy strange things on the sides of someone elses head who has a good line in bullshit and whos only motivation is to make money from you!!!! :confused: :mental:

For newbys, retailers used to be essential, and also they became cannon fodder for the NLP (they have been the food and fodder for the hi-fi mafia ever since). Now they have on-line help from experienced users - #1 loss of purpose for a retailer.

Experienced users - what the F' do they need a retailer for, apart from to buy a product that is controlled and only sold through retail. So I am trying to get people to see they don't need them and then more and more manufacturers will go direct. And now also there is *community* for the propogation of information not just the marketing NLP - #2 loss of purpose for a retailer.

There ain't a #3 so bye-bye! not so good knowing you, close the door and switch the lights off on the way out of the industry. :gig:

Colinx
29-03-2008, 22:01
the dealer actually has the stuff available to allow you to use those strange things on the side of your head, just to check out how it works, with a range of other stuff, unlike the cottage industry builder. This guy wants you to pay his distribution, and returns costs so that you can hear it. A new entrant into this silly game had better hope retail holds up, can you imagine the carrier costs just to compare a few cd players, amps and speakers properly. Yes Richard, dealers are in it to make money, just the same as you, well unless you are so well endowed with spare time you build for free, in which case more fool you.
The Internet may well change the face of retail, just not yet, and we are not all only price aware, some still value a little extra service. Some retailers give it, some do not, the bad ones should and will go. You also seem to have forgot that to a number of Hi-Fi fans the badge is half the product, it gives willy brandishing rights, and they will pay for the rights.

WikiBoy
29-03-2008, 22:28
the dealer actually has the stuff available to allow you to use those strange things on the side of your head, just to check out how it works, with a range of other stuff, unlike the cottage industry builder. This guy wants you to pay his distribution, and returns costs so that you can hear it. A new entrant into this silly game had better hope retail holds up, can you imagine the carrier costs just to compare a few cd players, amps and speakers properly. Yes Richard, dealers are in it to make money, just the same as you, well unless you are so well endowed with spare time you build for free, in which case more fool you.
The Internet may well change the face of retail, just not yet, and we are not all only price aware, some still value a little extra service. Some retailers give it, some do not, the bad ones should and will go. You also seem to have forgot that to a number of Hi-Fi fans the badge is half the product, it gives willy brandishing rights, and they will pay for the rights.

Don't be fooled, he sells you what he wants to sell you. Hi-end needs warm up, hi-end requires suitable positioning and cabling, hi-end requires the foot to be tapped at the appropriate moments, ok the last one is just one of the dealer NLP cons, but you know what I mean.

Now think of an on-line community where forums are linked and there is a data base of product and who owns it and which area. Plus people who are willing to let you listen, maybe even for a consideration from the manufacturer (I don't like this but it could be a little grease as long as not sale dependent). Plus access to talk to a large database of people who own the product you are interested in. Think of regular organised local bake-offs where an evening can be spent discovering new music and new equipment you hadn't even considered. We are not there yet but we are on our way. The dealer is not dead yet, but the replacement is in transition, as the industry is in transistion. How long, well this recession will help it with a pretty big shove.

Colinx
29-03-2008, 23:08
Then why would the dealer I use get stuff in for me to hear that he does not normally stock. Sit you in in the dem room, supply a coffee and sod off and let you listen. Why does he not come in and tap his feet, sit looking glum until he changed power cables, then smile and tap his feet. Neither does he tell you how important set up and placement is, other than for speakers, and I assume you accept speaker placement matters.
You also seem to have forgotten that many forums have flavour of the month, that is listed for sale 3 months after. Every one has an agenda, either for personal gain, personal satisfaction or even pecking order on forums.
If you are genuinely pleased that we are going into, or are in, a recession that may see thousands suffer real financial hardship so that the few remaing hi-fi dealers suffer then you have less respect for humanity than I would have thought possible.

WikiBoy
29-03-2008, 23:17
Then why would the dealer I use get stuff in for me to hear that he does not normally stock. Sit you in in the dem room, supply a coffee and sod off and let you listen. Why does he not come in and tap his feet, sit looking glum until he changed power cables, then smile and tap his feet. Neither does he tell you how important set up and placement is, other than for speakers, and I assume you accept speaker placement matters.
You also seem to have forgotten that many forums have flavour of the month, that is listed for sale 3 months after. Every one has an agenda, either for personal gain, personal satisfaction or even pecking order on forums.
If you are genuinely pleased that we are going into, or are in, a recession that may see thousands suffer real financial hardship so that the few remaing hi-fi dealers suffer then you have less respect for humanity than I would have thought possible.

Now you are being silly, and getting upset at a rant.

Recession is just the natural other side of the coin, you cannot create a bubble unless it bursts at some time, law of nature.

If you have a good dealer be happy, I very much quote worst case, but there are a hell of a lot of worst cases. But does it make you happy to pay twice as much as the product is worth, just for time in his dem room and coffee. If you think so then you are with Marco in this.

Just because I rant do you really think I expect everyone to agree with me? If it makes you think and maybe challenge the status quo, then the rant has worked.

Colinx
29-03-2008, 23:29
Not in the least upset, just amazed me that rant mode on or off a recession should be a cause for celebration.
Do I think its worth paying double for something, as per my previous post, double what, and what does your ''half price offer'' cover. Certainly not my time waiting for delivery/collection of packages, use of credit or cash to cover the costs of turning my listening room into a shop, and from your own post your prices will have to rise when you hit the VAT threshold, thats a third of the price difference gone.

The status quo may need a coat of looking at- how about something radical, instead of paying more for the goods, or paying for transport/returns, we pay the dealer for his time, purchase made or not. how about something around the same hourly rate as Ford charge for a mechanic to service you car should do it.

WikiBoy
29-03-2008, 23:54
Not in the least upset, just amazed me that rant mode on or off a recession should be a cause for celebration.
Do I think its worth paying double for something, as per my previous post, double what, and what does your ''half price offer'' cover. Certainly not my time waiting for delivery/collection of packages, use of credit or cash to cover the costs of turning my listening room into a shop, and from your own post your prices will have to rise when you hit the VAT threshold, thats a third of the price difference gone.

The status quo may need a coat of looking at- how about something radical, instead of paying more for the goods, or paying for transport/returns, we pay the dealer for his time, purchase made or not. how about something around the same hourly rate as Ford charge for a mechanic to service you car should do it.

Why are you bringing this back to nva. What I say only coincidently has anything to do with nva.

Do you know how the industry prices, obviously not. Go into the archive it is explained there, I cannot be arsed to do your work for you if you want to know. It is not just nva it is every product. Look at what Sensi said, read his post if you don't believe me. A usual hi-end hi-fi retailers mark up is 100% or if looked at as profit margin then 50%. But it gets worse as Sensi said. If your product is new they want 150% and they want to pay for it when they sell it (if then). Come on this is just taking the piss and that is what they do.

It is up to you if you wish to be one of their apologists, but they really don't need it. They were essential for the market to function, now far less so, and that continuing process with eventually see their demise. Which if you have any sense will be a time for celebration.

I do not accept any of your arguments about turning you home into a dem room, that is what it is anyway in some ways. It makes no difference how you buy you will have that same process to go through. All your other arguments have been made and countered before, just view the archive, if you dissagree well too bad, you dissagree. I do not *expect* your agreement. But what I present is a possibility, a potential, a likelyhood of a dealer less world (in all things not just hi-fi) and as long as the manufacturers don't get greedy and just take the profit for themselves a considerably less outgoings world as well.

Our creation of the bubble in the last 10 years has been built largely off the Chinese expansion and production. It wont last, it couldn't last, it was a one off, nothing to do with Gordon Brown's expertise as a chancelor. The bubble is bursting, I celebrate the function of balance, of the interaction of yin and yang, the natural way of things. If you think it is a bad thing then you have no sense of reality. It is no worse than night having to follow day.

Chris Frost
30-03-2008, 02:18
how about something radical, instead of paying more for the goods, or paying for transport/returns, we pay the dealer for his time, purchase made or not. how about something around the same hourly rate as Ford charge for a mechanic to service you car should do it.That's an interesting idea, but you find it falls on deaf ears as far as Richard is concerned. :(

He seems hell bent on his little rant against the industry. Maybe it's because he's still pee'd off that he couldn't get dealers to take his product, or that his attempts to sell direct by doing home dems didn't work out. Who knows, and more to the point really who cares? Now he's selling through Ebay he seems happy enough, though I think he's selling mostly low priced cables looking at the Ebay history for the last qtr. Ebay will work for him until something goes wrong. Then it will be public enemy number #1
:lolsign:

Marco
30-03-2008, 07:40
If you think so then you are with Marco in this.


Don't bring me into this again, Richard. I actually agree with about 90% of what you're saying. If you would alter your argument to acknowledge that there are *some* good, worthwhile, dealers around instead of rubbishing every one of them completely unfairly and illogically, whilst exposing the shysters (which are many) then we would be in 100% agreement :)

But of course your stubborn head won't entertain that notion. However, it is your ranting thread so I guess we can't expect too much sense or logic ;)

Now please keep me out of this one. I'll comment on your loudspeaker rant later.

Marco.

WikiBoy
30-03-2008, 10:29
That's an interesting idea, but you find it falls on deaf ears as far as Richard is concerned. :(

He seems hell bent on his little rant against the industry. Maybe it's because he's still pee'd off that he couldn't get dealers to take his product, or that his attempts to sell direct by doing home dems didn't work out. Who knows, and more to the point really who cares? Now he's selling through Ebay he seems happy enough, though I think he's selling mostly low priced cables looking at the Ebay history for the last qtr. Ebay will work for him until something goes wrong. Then it will be public enemy number #1
:lolsign:

Still looking for angles :confused: the industry is going in the right direction, I am just pushing a little. Changes are on the way and they are not created by me. As I keep saying I am just the finger pointing at it not the moon itself, so don't confuse it.

None of what you think you find holds water though.

I have been pee'd off with dealers from the moment I had to use them. I have been looking for ways to replace them for 30 years. Now at last we have a viable one. So a previous necessary evil is no longer necessary - my point.

Ebay has its problems but it doesn't pee me off, it irritates me occassionaly. Nothing is perfect, not even me :smoking:, so I will live with it.

What I sell, well your cursory check seems somewhat wrong to me, so I have just looked at my summary.

I hold records of four catagories - Electronics, Loudspeaker Cables, Interconnects, P&P. Leaving out P&P as irrelevent we get since 1st Jan :-

Electronics 40 items £13k
Loudspeaker Cable 45 items £3k
Interconnect 65 items £2k

total £18k - so seeing as I do not want to vat register I need to get that back down to £16k per qtr, or go on a long holiday. Probably the latter.

So come on this is small beer, it is the equivalent of Naims petty cash account. I am just a flea irritating the skin of the industry, or if you remember the old song "an ant pushing at a rubber tree plant".

Once again nothing you say holds any water or has any relevence.

Chris Frost
30-03-2008, 14:20
Hi Richard, as I've said previously (and you conveniently ignored) I support some of what you are saying. The bad dealers should be outed; but equally the good dealers should be praised. This is something you seem unwilling to consider. Hey ho, it's your rant.

Oh, and according to Ebay history for Jan 25th - Mar 25th, 2008, you had 120 transactions of which 96 were cables and 28 were electronics of which a sizable chunk were s/h items.

So for every 1 piece of new or used electronics sold you shipped out 3 cable sets. I'm not knocking it, but it does look to me like you're selling mostly cables and at a rate of 3:1 for that particular period. So what I said does "hold water" based on the information available. :smoking:

Regards

Marco
30-03-2008, 14:25
Hi Richard, as I've said previously (and you conveniently ignored) I support some of what you are saying. The bad dealers should be outed; but equally the good dealers should be praised. This is something you seem unwilling to consider. Hey ho, it's your rant.


That's a most succinct synopsis of my position too, Chris.

Great minds or, erm, whatever, think alike! :lolsign:

Marco.

WikiBoy
30-03-2008, 14:36
Hi Richard, as I've said previously (and you conveniently ignored) I support some of what you are saying. The bad dealers should be outed; but equally the good dealers should be praised. This is something you seem unwilling to consider. Hey ho, it's your rant.

Oh, and according to Ebay history for Jan 25th - Mar 25th, 2008, you had 120 transactions of which 96 were cables and 28 were electronics of which a sizable chunk were s/h items.

So for every 1 piece of new or used electronics sold you shipped out 3 cable sets. I'm not knocking it, but it does look to me like you're selling mostly cables and at a rate of 3:1 for that particular period. So what I said does "hold water" based on the information available. :smoking:

Regards

Are you calling me a liar!!!! you obnoxious rude prat.

I have *nothing* to prove to you and no need to give any information. The information I gave is from my quickbooks not ebay. Ebay information you read is only feedback, and a lot don't leave it.

You are knocking it and me, and you had better get your facts right sunshine as at the rate you are going your heading for litigation.

You are absolutely determined to get into conflict with me and you have finally succeeded. You will be contacted.

Marco
30-03-2008, 14:50
You're crossing the line here, Richard.

I would advise you to delete that last response otherwise I will remove it. Come on, guys, you can be controversial and argue robustly, but keep it from getting personal!

Marco.

Chris Frost
30-03-2008, 15:03
Richard, I would respond with a justification but I'm afraid that you just wouldn't take any notice.

If you want to try ringing me again for a calm rational discussion then please feel free. I stand by what I've said. But I give you fair warning, be careful threatening people with physical violence over the telephone. You never know if the conversation is being recorded.

Regards

Marco
30-03-2008, 15:09
Ok, thread closed until the situation has calmed down.

I will re-open it later. But no more threats from anyone!

Marco.

Mike
30-03-2008, 16:06
Hmmm.... Looks like I've missed something here? What's been.....

No, on second thoughts, I think I'd rather NOT know....

:scratch:

Marco
30-03-2008, 16:13
I'll fill you in later, Mike.

Marco.

Marco
01-04-2008, 19:05
Ok - thread now reopened.

Let the nonsense continue... and please try not to issue death threats to each other! :lolsign:

Marco.

Filterlab
01-04-2008, 19:18
... and please try not to issue death threats to each other! :lolsign:

Marco.

I'm gonna have you for that comment! :steam:










:D

pjdowns
08-04-2008, 22:54
LOL Filterlab, very good !!!!

P.

Barry
22-09-2014, 23:27
From the Grave

Joe
23-09-2014, 07:43
It's amusing/interesting/troubling that the first two posters on this thread are now banned from the forum.

Marco
23-09-2014, 08:33
Let’s keep posts strictly on-topic and about the subject matter, rather than personalities, please.

So, do folks here believe that there exists a “Rip off British Hi-Fi Industry”? :)

Marco.

Peter Galbavy
23-09-2014, 08:36
I don't think it's so much rip-off as full of chancers, shills and spivs. But nor is this specifically a British thing - there are plenty in all English speaking countries. Does it affect the continent as much? I have no experience there, so cannot say.

Joe
23-09-2014, 08:41
'Hi-fi industry' is a very broad term. I'd say that some elements are rip-off (mark-up on fancy cables, for example) and some are less so. But the growth of direct selling, the gradual loss of the baby-boomer generation, and the move to smaller properties means that the 'specialist' hi-fi dealer is a dying breed anyway, in the same way that bookshops have all but vanished from our high streets.

DSJR
23-09-2014, 08:57
Was this thread really started SIX YEARS ago?

The answer isn't now as clear cut as it may have been back then IMO. The 'mass market new product' specialist industry has all but disappeared from UK retail at any rate, replaced by a lucrative used market, often bolstered by forums like this one and the only serious new product market now being the 'oligach' one I think. If you were seen to be a bad dealer, you'd have gone under long ago and many once good dealers have just had to close their doors due to lack of interest.

The model for many small manufacturers now seems to be online and as long as products are sold at proper trade prices (and not full retail so an online seller makes double the profit!), we all gain in a way, although obviously, nobody can listen and compare first. Cables aside (a necessary cash cow for survival IMO), dealers do allow you to compare things, hopefully fairly, so you can reach a decision.

By the way, I'm speaking as an ex-hifi dealer of more than thirty years' standing and with a literally lifelong passion about music and the means of reproducing it. I cringe at the UK industry of the 80's and my place in it, although it paid me spectacularly well for a 'shop worker!' and it's now an indelible part of an earlier life for me.

Apologies. I'm rambling again, but there are still a few good long-standing dealers out there, often working from facilities at home, trying to make a living and even cash-cow Naim dealers aren't having it all their own way these days...

Beobloke
23-09-2014, 09:03
And the purpose of digging up this thread was what, exactly? :scratch:

Clive197
23-09-2014, 09:08
A business who rips-off customers (let alone an industry) is always going to end in tears. No I don't think the HiFi industry rips off its customers, the trade is far too competitive.
However, accessories do have an element of very high prices, similar to how the motor industry work regarding spare parts and while customers flock in then this is not going to change anytime soon. It's interesting that the boutique companies seem to come and go.

Clive

Marco
23-09-2014, 09:10
Hi Adam,

Here's the answer to your question….


The answer isn't now as clear cut as it may have been back then IMO.

As it’s been such a long time since the matter was discussed, we wanted to hear what the views were of our current members, which reflect the state of the industry as it is now, six years on, and to analyse any change that has taken place in that respect since the question was first posed :)

Marco.

walpurgis
23-09-2014, 09:53
You can't be 'ripped off' on purchase prices. One only pays what one chooses to!

No doubt poor after sales service occurs, warranties, etc. That may be the rip off!

YNWaN
23-09-2014, 10:06
The very concept of 'rip-off hi-fi' is ridiculous. Hi-fi is a luxury item, nobody needs it to exist so nobody is obliged, or forced, to buy anything. If you think something is poor value for money, don't buy it - it's not difficult (works fine for me). If you believe that God has given you a mission to point out all wrongs (real or imagined) that exist in the tiny universe of hi-fi then A/ get a grip, B/ seek psychiatric advice.


You can't be 'ripped off' on purchase prices. One only pays what one chooses to!

No doubt poor after sales service occurs, warranties, etc. That may be the rip off!

Exactly.

DSJR
23-09-2014, 10:13
Yeah, but the business has shrunk further and the rise and rise of online sellers in the meantime has definitely changed the game I think.

One issue with SMALL online sellers is that those that change or 'update' their products regularly, may not be able to afford to keep backup service stock of components from previous versions. On the other hand, other makers maintain excellent reliability and a ready willingness to service/conserve older product when necessary.

Gordon Steadman
23-09-2014, 10:23
Out here in France there is very little evidence of hi-fi at all. I haven't seen a proper dealer since we have been here. Our French neighbours look at our hi-fi as if it came from outer space. Like 99% of the population, they have a small Sony or the like, all in one unit with women's speakers. The supermarkets sell them. Even the bigger electrical retailers only stock Samsung black plastic stuff.

Obviously the is an industry here as the French produce some very expensive gear but its such a small market that they, like anyone else in the business need a healthy mark up to survive.

I agree that its nonsense to talk of rip off. If I think something is too expensive, I don't buy it. If I think an expensive item is justified in looks/performance, then I have to pay the market price of buy second hand - which is what I do.

Teufel (sorry to name them again) only sell on line but if I hadn't been offered the kit free, there is no way I would buy a pair of speakers without hearing them first. In theory, they reduce their prices accordingly. Same goes for any kit, money back guarantees or not. If I heard it at a dealer, thats where I would buy it - if I had the necessary asking price, otherwise I wouldn't buy it at all.

I remember the overheads I used to have when I was paying business rates etc. I don't know how anyone survives on the high street these days. The level of markup is no surprise to me.

Rip off - nope. If they survive, someone thinks its worth it.

Dauntless
23-09-2014, 12:02
Like a lot of folk have already said, if you think it is a rip off don't buy it. Nobody is forcing you. I myself have not bought anything from a Hi-Fi dealer since the early 90's. I buy on line and don't have a problem with that method. I consider myself reasonably experienced and can research to come to a conclusion. I would never go to a dealers and have a demo. This is an approach that has been strongly suggested by the Hi-Fi mags in my view which is in their interests but not mine.

rubber duck
23-09-2014, 13:39
The very concept of 'rip-off hi-fi' is ridiculous. Hi-fi is a luxury item, nobody needs it to exist so nobody is obliged, or forced, to buy anything. If you think something is poor value for money, don't buy it - it's not difficult (works fine for me).

Isn't the issue more about price discrepancies for the same item in the UK and elsewhere? Or for that matter, UK-made hi-fi which can be bought cheaper overseas, even after factoring in VAT, etc?

Joe
23-09-2014, 13:57
Is buying a new car a rip-off, when it loses a huge chunk of its value as soon as you drive it away? If so, then the same applies to buying new hifi from a 'proper' dealer; if not, then not.

Peter Galbavy
23-09-2014, 14:36
One problem is that of "new blood". If all the so-called high end HiFi is either found to be or even seen to be a rip-off then this discourages new entrants into the consumer space which in turn reduces the size of the market which in turn makes prices even higher as the manufacturing runs get even smaller. I'm not talking about stereo-typical spotty teenagers looking for something better than their phone to play music on - who will typically understand ebay et al - but instead later in the lifecycle, the employed consumer with some disposable income, the "John Lewis" shopper if you like.

Goose, golden egg, roasting tray.

Elephantears
23-09-2014, 22:28
Isn't the issue more about price discrepancies for the same item in the UK and elsewhere? Or for that matter, UK-made hi-fi which can be bought cheaper overseas, even after factoring in VAT, etc?

Yes, this is what people should be looking into. If you look at prices in Japan, there are some real shocks, and not just when looking at Japanese products. I've seen British hi-fi so cheap over there that I would seriously consider booking a flight to Tokyo and spending some time there just to get some speakers posted back, if I had the time.

YNWaN
23-09-2014, 22:35
Isn't the issue more about price discrepancies for the same item in the UK and elsewhere? Or for that matter, UK-made hi-fi which can be bought cheaper overseas, even after factoring in VAT, etc?

Can it? I honestly don't know, you would have to give me specific examples I'm afraid. Stuff imported from abroad has long been subjectively poor value for money than in its home country - but it's still up to the buyer whether to fork out for it or not (I haven't). Value for money is ultimately in the pocket of the spender (as opposed to the eye of the beholder :)).

DSJR
24-09-2014, 17:39
What the OP was trying to weed out, I think, isn't so much the dealer (he states hopefully :)) but the distributer, who bought in cheap from Japan and now China (most often), added a good few hundred percent (quite often) before trade-pricing it to a retailer. Even now, how much or little do you think the spate of £300 - £400 active 'monitors' come into the UK for? I'm told around £60 to £75 and the dealer doesn't have a huge margin on them, which I understand is more in line with computer products than traditional 'High Fidelity' gear...

Back in 1975, a cassette deck selling typically for £120 would leave the factory for no more than £25. Dealer would buy it at around £85 to £90 back then if they bought in quantity.

BTH K10A
24-09-2014, 19:33
What the OP was trying to weed out, I think, isn't so much the dealer (he states hopefully :)) but the distributer, who bought in cheap from Japan and now China (most often), added a good few hundred percent (quite often) before trade-pricing it to a retailer. Even now, how much or little do you think the spate of £300 - £400 active 'monitors' come into the UK for? I'm told around £60 to £75 and the dealer doesn't have a huge margin on them, which I understand is more in line with computer products than traditional 'High Fidelity' gear...

Back in 1975, a cassette deck selling typically for £120 would leave the factory for no more than £25. Dealer would buy it at around £85 to £90 back then if they bought in quantity.

No, I don't think so, as per the OP's posts 1 & 3 it is definitely the retailer (dealer), later moving onto the hifi industry as a whole and even the enthusiasts who are labelled sheep.

In response to the original topic I must say that I've never felt ripped off by the British hifi industry as there has always been ample choice of products and the competition that brings.

Retailers have overheads which nowadays are becoming unsustainable for the smaller outlets
Distributers are often necessary as a lot of manufacturers, particuarly the larger ones have no interest in a high volume of small value transactions and prefer to sell in bulk to someone who does. The distributor also has to cover warehousing and financing.
Direct sellers are not new, they just have a different (better) media in the internet and the numbers have increased.

However when buying I usually heed the following:

Be dubious of marketing claims untill empirically proven, always rely on your own judgement rather than that of others others and always be suspicious of the motives of those who have a vested interest in the gospel they are preaching. ;)

chelsea
24-09-2014, 20:15
No

tom
02-10-2014, 20:33
Is it the dealers or the manufactures who mark up excessively? Does it really cost as much to make an amp weighing around 15Kg as a car!! I believe the formula for hifi manufacture mark up is 5x the build cost. Economy of scale is often quoted as a reason but I think that is over stated.

I do have direct experience of how a dealer tried to over charge me for a piece of 2nd hand equipment he knew I was interested in.

It was a Dartzeel pre amp. He offered it to me at 16K, more than the original list price (15k), I declined. I obtained one elsewhere at half the sum he was asking. Some months later I saw the same amp on the same dealers web site for 6k less than he tried to sell it to me.

Peter Galbavy
03-10-2014, 08:45
Like in any walk of life there are "canny" operators. You know the sort - antique dealers who intentionally dress in quality-but-fallen-on-hard-times clothing to garner sympathy, the farmer who complains loudly about a hard life while employing lawyers and accountants to maximise the grants and tax-breaks from government and of course the HiFi/car dealer who will always target the aspirational ego of customers in order to upgrade them to the next product, the higher margin product, the buy-it-now-before-they-put-the-price-up-again merchant. They are all stereotypes but I have met more than one of each in my years. They do exist and not just on TV.

StanleyB
03-10-2014, 09:00
Is it the dealers or the manufactures who mark up excessively? Does it really cost as much to make an amp weighing around 15Kg as a car!! I believe the formula for hifi manufacture mark up is 5x the build cost. Economy of scale is often quoted as a reason but I think that is over stated..
One reason that China managed to undercut the rest of the world in many areas of manufacturing is because they did not have to do any proto type and R&D work. They received a sample to copy.
But the average company that needs to do R&D, proto type work, and get safety approvals, needs to include those costs in the price. It is not just a case of how much it costs to build something.
Far too many people complain about how much the HIFI industry makes on the sale of an item. But I don't hear those same complaints when it comes to cars or homes, even though the latter two are heavily overpriced in the UK.

Macca
03-10-2014, 09:33
Not just cars and houses. Designer clothes are twice the price here than in most places. Food is more expensive, generally. Compared to the U.S we are paying 25% to 100% more for pretty much everything. The 'Treasure Island' reputation has not gone away.

Oldpinkman
03-10-2014, 09:41
The perception of "rip-off" derives from an idea that conventional retail and its associated costs are not appropriate or legitimate, now there is an alternative of direct sales for many items. This is an inexpensive route to market, and attractive to those who are primarily price fixated and don't require advice or "touchy feely" or other aspects of the retail process. Others prefer differently. The idea that a product MUST be a function of its component cost is bonkers. Like everything else it is driven by market forces. If its too expensive - it won't sell. Final cost will be determined primarily by what the market will stand, and what viable legitimate alternatives are available at lower cost.

As Stan pointed out, R&D and product testing are elements, as are rep support and local distributor advertising, warranty support, distribution and stock holding costs. The OP has a modest market - primarily the home market through ebay, and a slightly wider audience through referral. If he wants to market in Singapore, he needs to hold stock there, advertise locally, register for local taxes, provide warranty support there. And the same applies to anyone from Singapore selling into the UK market. And they tend to chose and agent who speaks the language and knows the trading and tax laws, to do that for them. At a price.

If you want it cheap - build your own, or buy used product at way below viable modern manufacture and supply cost (except for cult items like LS35a's). There is a huge stock of excellent value real HiFi - it dominates a tiny market which is has decayed to a fraction of its former vibrant self - hence the withdrawal of Technics, Pioneer and others from what is now a fringe esoteric market. But don't knock those still trying to make a living by developing innovative new product for the remaining few enthusiasts, rather than a "one size fits all - lets rewire , use special components, or a different case" home builders selling via direct marketing.

Pricing will depend on volumes. In a tiny market, expected sales levels are tiny, and price will be high relative to component cost due to lack of demand, and associated R&D, administration, distribution and marketing costs.

If you think its too expensive, and can get better or equivalent cheaper elsewhere - don't buy it. Don't sit there whinging its a rip-off.

And don't expect to use shop facilities and then save 5% buying online and be welcomed into the mainstream retailer.

Marco
03-10-2014, 10:36
Hi Richard,

Whilst your points are valid, and in general I agree with the contents of your post, let’s not focus any further on the agenda of the OP (or anything about him), and concentrate instead solely on the nature of the thread topic and whether the question posed on the poll has any relevance now or not.

Cheers! :)

Marco.

struth
03-10-2014, 11:01
Hi end is a market where it is often the case that the buyers don't really care or in fact enjoy the silly price tags. Otherwise as has been stated the prices in general in this country are OTT. In Germany a Merc used to cost half what it is here although we get all the gadgets built in whereas the Germans put them in themselves. Might not be that way now. A friend of mine used to go to the states and come back with a new wardrobe. He took over a load of crap and dumped it and filled up with polo shirts that cost 3 times here...immoral? Dunno, but he was a cop!

Macca
03-10-2014, 11:50
. A friend of mine used to go to the states and come back with a new wardrobe. He took over a load of crap and dumped it and filled up with polo shirts that cost 3 times here...immoral? Dunno, but he was a cop!

Yep I used to do that - save a couple of hundred easy. Plus you get American service: a gadgee goes all round the shop with you points out the stuff you are looking for, carries it around for you and then makes you a coffee whilst they ring it all through the till. Much better than their gum chewing, grunting UK equivelant.

Oldpinkman
03-10-2014, 11:58
Not just cars and houses. Designer clothes are twice the price here than in most places. Food is more expensive, generally. Compared to the U.S we are paying 25% to 100% more for pretty much everything. The 'Treasure Island' reputation has not gone away.

Martin. A little truth is a dangerous thing. Because a set of golf clubs cost twice the price in the UK compared with the US - is it valid to conclude a rip-off? I think not. If it is - do us all a favour - source golf clubs in the US at an appropriate price, sell them over here, and do us a favour with US prices and make yourself a thriving business. Well maybe not you - but some enterprising soul.

Or is there a Scottish referendum style conspiracy amongst suitable entrepreneurs to rip us all off and keep prices high out of spite? The sort of spite to their own face that means they throw away a good business opportunity to sell at half the price of other UK retailers, just to shit on the consumer by keeping prices high.

Surprised at this comment - most of yours display a more robust common sense.

I want a Maton Messiah EM100C guitar (its not price that's stopping me buying one - its a few self-imposed performance criteria, of the "your not having a new set of cricket whites when you can't catch a ball" variety). Last time I checked properly the only UK stockist actually stocking one was Guitar Village for £3450. Currently they have a pre-used one - I strongly suspect the one I auditioned and very nearly bought on impulse, and no new stock. Holland is the nearest stockist showing one in stock. The UK used one is £2450.

In Australia Haworths have new stock with a Hiscox case for 3299 ozzie dollars. That's £1832 at current spot exchange. plus £170 shipping = £2003 landed. Plus duty of £63 and VAT of £408 gives me a cost to my door for brand new of £2474. New for the price of an old one! What does that guitar I had shipped sound like? How is the action? State of fret dress? What do I do if it has a bent neck - as a manufacture fault not insured shipping damage? What if the bridge unglues after 10 months?

Rip off!

Macca
03-10-2014, 12:16
It's well known that the global companies charge more in the UK simply because they can. That has been going on since the 1980s. I'm surprised that you deny it happens. Levi jeans, for example, in the USA are about 25% of the price in the UK. Now if you want Levi jeans that is what you have to buy, there is no cheaper alternative and UK punters will pay the extra to have them. U.S punters won't.

As for importing the golf clubs from the U.S - once you add VAT and duty and cost of shipping your imported product is not going to be that much cheaper. But people do this already and make a living at it so not sure what your point is there.

Floyddroid
03-10-2014, 12:21
:zzz:Yawn!

Peter Galbavy
03-10-2014, 14:56
It's well known that the global companies charge more in the UK simply because they can. That has been going on since the 1980s. I'm surprised that you deny it happens. Levi jeans, for example, in the USA are about 25% of the price in the UK. Now if you want Levi jeans that is what you have to buy, there is no cheaper alternative and UK punters will pay the extra to have them. U.S punters won't.

As for importing the golf clubs from the U.S - once you add VAT and duty and cost of shipping your imported product is not going to be that much cheaper. But people do this already and make a living at it so not sure what your point is there.

The important notes here though that may not be clear to all are that the global brands use the courts to stop you, as an "unauthorised" retailer from undercutting their selected local channels. This is collusion between brand and retailers at the expense of consumers.

On the second one, the missing ingredient here even if you are not sued by the manufacturer or rights holder is that you invariably only get a small discount if anything off retail from the source country and so obviously you don't look competitive. If you could buy at the same price as the foreign retailers and do the import with the additional taxes and shipping then prices would be competitive and you end up in being sued. Again.

Return to go.

Oldpinkman
03-10-2014, 14:57
Have I missed some key AOS protocol here? Am I required to post "YAWN" on every thread I find boring and of no interest, or is it acceptable just to carry on not bothering to read them.

I'd hate to be thought of as rude. :stalks:

hifi_dave
03-10-2014, 15:06
It's well known that the global companies charge more in the UK simply because they can. That has been going on since the 1980s. I'm surprised that you deny it happens. Levi jeans, for example, in the USA are about 25% of the price in the UK. Now if you want Levi jeans that is what you have to buy, there is no cheaper alternative and UK punters will pay the extra to have them. U.S punters won't..

During our visit to Florida in August, I noted that Levi 501s were $65 - $70 + their 6% sales tax.

Marco
03-10-2014, 16:45
Have I missed some key AOS protocol here? Am I required to post "YAWN" on every thread I find boring and of no interest, or is it acceptable just to carry on not bothering to read them.

I'd hate to be thought of as rude. :stalks:

Yeah, if folks find a particular thread boring, it’s best just to ignore it and move onto another thread that isn’t :)

Marco.

337alant
08-10-2014, 20:50
I voted don't care because most of my HIFI is made up of Vintage and DIY gear :rolleyes:, so don't use dealers much but I think they are a lot better that they used to be as they have had to change with the times.
I would imagine that online is killing the industry

Alan

FidelityArt
13-10-2014, 20:35
I personally think that everything above £5000 is a rip-off.

YNWaN
18-10-2014, 05:52
Not £4500? How did you arrive at that figure?

naitphile
28-11-2014, 09:56
Not £4500? How did you arrive at that figure?

I tend to buy as I find. I wasn't particularly looking for my naim amp but was in a new dealer, I liked the amp well enough but bought probably more because I liked the dealer. But let us also be clear we are all focused on sound (art of sound like) and important home demos are for the majority of us, probably harder to arrange than buying online and testing at home.

On the other hand I was in a well reviewed specialist dealer this week and wanted to look at top end headphones. The assistant didn't think They had the model I wanted in the cabinet that was beyond my sight and made no effort to tempt me with something else....the owner of the store witnessed this but just carried on his conversation with his mate about pink flloyd. Maybe it's because I am on crutches people make assumptions about how much disposal income I have (happened before went to a dealer for a pre-booked test drive and was greeted with motability is on Wednesdays sir - walked across the road and bought a car) or maybe the headphone guy was hungover but they lost a sale and a future customer ..I have noidea but overall I am increasingly happy researching online and then buying online....I usually like my choices and it can be done by comparing prices....furthermore i find you can sense good dealers by their websites and reviews then call and go visit and buy if they sound good. That's my two penneth and it's just market forces.

Are we being ripped off as a whole? I don't know there have been many reports on this and seems you need to look at how whole tax structures and competition in each market works it's not that simple.

walpurgis
28-11-2014, 10:12
Having had a skim through this lot, I don't feel I have the energy left to vote. :)

awkwardbydesign
28-11-2014, 10:17
Just noticed this thread. I live in Plymouth, so the question is irrelevant.

naitphile
28-11-2014, 10:23
Having had a skim through this lot, I don't feel I have the energy left to vote. :)

Is there a vote....I was too busy ranting��

Marco
28-11-2014, 11:26
Just noticed this thread. I live in Plymouth, so the question is irrelevant.

Not if it’s a Tuesday.

Marco.

Reffc
28-11-2014, 11:49
Is it the dealers or the manufactures who mark up excessively? Does it really cost as much to make an amp weighing around 15Kg as a car!! I believe the formula for hifi manufacture mark up is 5x the build cost. Economy of scale is often quoted as a reason but I think that is over stated.

I do have direct experience of how a dealer tried to over charge me for a piece of 2nd hand equipment he knew I was interested in.

It was a Dartzeel pre amp. He offered it to me at 16K, more than the original list price (15k), I declined. I obtained one elsewhere at half the sum he was asking. Some months later I saw the same amp on the same dealers web site for 6k less than he tried to sell it to me.

:stalks::stalks::stalks:

If that's the case, I'll have to "up" the price of my speakers to a 5 figure sum straight away...thanks for that ;):lol:

Manufacturers do not all use the same model. It depends entirely on (company) size, turnover, overheads, economies of scale, what the market can stand, what competitors charge, marketing costs, R&D costs, how many units it is anticipated will sell and a whole raft of other measures. I use a very simple formula (cost - plus hourly charge which is stepped depending on skill level of task) whilst others may use a doubling, trebling or whatever of build cost. You cannot compare one against the other without a hell of a lot of detail, as it'd be largely meaningless. The real test is simple. You ask yourself a few questions as a buyer:


what is it I want
Does this tick the right boxes (sound quality, appearance, finish, build quality)
Can I afford it
how does it stack up with the competition


If those boxes are ticked in the affirmative then pricing largely becomes irrelevant so the whole OP is up for grabs. At the end of the day it's a personal choice being made by grown ups, and providing they have their eyes wide open, few are likely to be ripped off. Are some things way more expensive than they should be? That depends on the "should" but of course, there's bound to be some.

There's other questions too: Just because something may be expensive doesn't mean it's any good. Just because something's inexpensive, doesn't mean it's not any good. Some amp manufacturers probably put more cost into their casework, switches and marketing than their internals (minus R&D costs), fact. Visuals sell, and good marketing sells.

One thing is for sure: The cost of PCB electronics has undoubtedly come down and manufacturing on a large scale has become cheaper but there will always be components that are labour intensive and expensive to build and one cannot simply judge them on cost alone. Two speaker cabinets may look the same, but the designs and materials may be different enough for one pair to have taken literally hours to assemble and one pair to take weeks to build from scratch. There may be sound reasons for one over the other but the average punter may not be aware of these. Similarly, decent power supplies and output transformers are not cheap, nor are fancy caps etc.

What it boils down to is whether you want to go the DIY route for best value (good luck with that unless you're confident or experienced) or whether you value the skills and products that are about that are undoubtedly expensive but worth it in the long run. Similarly, there are inexpensive components that may well be great value. Value is in the judgement and eye of the buyer.

Oldpinkman
28-11-2014, 11:54
Just noticed this thread. I live in Plymouth, so the question is irrelevant.

Irrelevant is the question? - the answers a big grey thing with ears and a trunk?

Spectral Morn
28-11-2014, 12:11
I tend to buy as I find. I wasn't particularly looking for my naim amp but was in a new dealer, I liked the amp well enough but bought probably more because I liked the dealer. But let us also be clear we are all focused on sound (art of sound like) and important home demos are for the majority of us, probably harder to arrange than buying online and testing at home.

On the other hand I was in a well reviewed specialist dealer this week and wanted to look at top end headphones. The assistant didn't think They had the model I wanted in the cabinet that was beyond my sight and made no effort to tempt me with something else....the owner of the store witnessed this but just carried on his conversation with his mate about pink flloyd. Maybe it's because I am on crutches people make assumptions about how much disposal income I have (happened before went to a dealer for a pre-booked test drive and was greeted with motability is on Wednesdays sir - walked across the road and bought a car) or maybe the headphone guy was hungover but they lost a sale and a future customer ..I have noidea but overall I am increasingly happy researching online and then buying online....I usually like my choices and it can be done by comparing prices....furthermore i find you can sense good dealers by their websites and reviews then call and go visit and buy if they sound good. That's my two penneth and it's just market forces.

Are we being ripped off as a whole? I don't know there have been many reports on this and seems you need to look at how whole tax structures and competition in each market works it's not that simple.

That is appalling.

I would write a letter of complaint.

When in the audio retail trade I regularly had folks with mobility problems in the shop, I treated them no differently than anyone else, re giving as good service as I could. I once took all the furniture out of the demo room to facilitate a demo for a guy in a wheelchair. He was delighted with the demo, what I presented and made a purchase. It does my head in these sales guys/shop owners who feel entitled to be given money for zero effort.

I still believe the dealer model is the best one, re facilitating demo's and home loans,. and quality advice based on experience but increasingly crap service like you got means that all are being tarred with the same brush.


Regards Neil

Andrei
28-11-2014, 12:14
Haven't read the whole thread (and I am not voting) but like many Hi-Fi areas it is difficult to come up with something conclusive because there are so many other variables influencing the one in question - in this case a rip-off. I suppose considering retail prices for the same item on The Continent and in The States could be interesting. If retail prices in the UK are higher then that is a starting point. I stress 'starting point' because maybe UK dealers offer (on average) a different level of service - worth a lot in my book; maybe there are different levels of duty or sales tax, or maybe standard (or legislative) warranties are different. Here in NZ retail prices are substantially more than almost anywhere else because of the shipping costs (also the extra time involved finding us on the map).

Gordon Steadman
28-11-2014, 12:24
Its interesting comparing things in France and the UK.

In the UK, new stuff is fairly expensive but second hand is give away. Here, new is reasonable but second hand is fantastically expensive. The French think that there is still value in their old stuff and charge accordingly. There is the occasional bargain but usually its cheaper to buy in the UK and suffer the postage. A second hand Philips CD player which would go for pennies in the UK is up for over €60 here. Old all in one record players from the 50s get hundreds in spite of being crap. Collector's item they are not.

Now that eBay are doing the international bit, things might even out I suppose.

struth
28-11-2014, 12:56
Haven't read the whole thread (and I am not voting) but like many Hi-Fi areas it is difficult to come up with something conclusive because there are so many other variables influencing the one in question - in this case a rip-off. I suppose considering retail prices for the same item on The Continent and in The States could be interesting. If retail prices in the UK are higher then that is a starting point. I stress 'starting point' because maybe UK dealers offer (on average) a different level of service - worth a lot in my book; maybe there are different levels of duty or sales tax, or maybe standard (or legislative) warranties are different. Here in NZ retail prices are substantially more than almost anywhere else because of the shipping costs (also the extra time involved finding us on the map).

Theres a NEW Zealand now?

awkwardbydesign
28-11-2014, 13:03
Irrelevant is the question? - the answers a big grey thing with ears and a trunk?
Dementia's a terrible thing.

Sovereign
28-11-2014, 13:14
Getting back to the OP, Am I being ripped off by retailers? The answer is no, as I buy all my gear second hand or try and make it myself. When I do buy stuff new I tend to buy from retailers such as Paul Coupe, Nick Gorham and the like. To me chaps like these sell stunning products and deserve every penny they charge.

DSJR
28-11-2014, 16:52
And this is why the UK audio industry has collapsed, as the once massive middle-market is now a used-gear one, with a few online manufacturers taking up a lot of the remaining slack. I think I can say this as practically all my own gear is now very old (1996 AVI preamp is the newest, the rest before 1990 pretty much).

The Barbarian
29-11-2014, 12:50
Bought used have done for over 25 years. Not really interested if the industry has collapsed, I personally have no need for it..

Oldpinkman
29-11-2014, 18:17
Have you heard the one about the hifi nut so obsessed with direct sales as the only pure and true way to sell he thinks any retailer like tesco is corrupt and a rip off. So he gets his eggs direct from the local farm, his loo roll direct from the paper mill, and his comfort from his right hand :D

User211
29-11-2014, 19:25
Two of the best domestic systems I have heard have been built by one man British bands.

Tom's RFC cabinet Tannoys and, ahem, mine built by Jon at Reality Audio (http://www.reality-audio.com/)to my spec.

Just looking at Jon's product, a super spec'd Apogee Duetta, and you know it isn't going to be normal, whether you personally like them or not.

Sooner or later I'll let someone hear them:)

Value for money? Well I'd like to see a sizeable producer manage to make a speaker at this level of performance for anything like the money.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-3YB1JZZ4C3A/U9GG6b5KPDI/AAAAAAAAB54/L8w2MQMraKg/w1061-h597-no/DSC01272

Marco
29-11-2014, 19:55
Have you heard the one about the hifi nut so obsessed with direct sales as the only pure and true way to sell he thinks any retailer like tesco is corrupt and a rip off. So he gets his eggs direct from the local farm, his loo roll direct from the paper mill, and his comfort from his right hand :D

:lolsign:

Wot if he’s a left-handed ‘tosser’? :D

Marco.

struth
29-11-2014, 20:03
:lolsign:

Wot if he’s a left-handed ‘tosser’? :D

Marco.

You calling me left handed?

Marco
29-11-2014, 20:04
Arf! :eyebrows:

Marco.

awkwardbydesign
29-11-2014, 20:33
Bought used have done for over 25 years. Not really interested if the industry has collapsed, I personally have no need for it..
But without new sales there are no secondhand products!

awkwardbydesign
29-11-2014, 20:34
Sooner or later I'll let someone hear them:)


Yeah, you SAY that.........

Effem
29-11-2014, 21:42
Long before "That's Life" appeared on TV with their fearless expose of rip offs, it was and always has been rife. I bet a cave man or two did a dodgy deal with wonky axe handles when it suited him :eyebrows: What's lacking these days is the regulation and legal powers to stamp it out and some porridge might deter some rogues from chancing their luck. Anyway, everyone has a choice and SHOULD have a brain between the ears to use logic and common sense to avoid the rip off merchants.

I don't think the hi-fi industry is any more guilty of ripping people off than any other industry to be honest. I have had great service from the dealers I have used and begrudge not one penny I spent with them. I have bought hi-fi components in the past that had too much fresh air inside the case, but still sounded great. So what did I buy in that instance, a quality of sound I enjoyed or a total component count?

When the smarmy BMW salesman asked me if I would like carpets and a radio for the car I had just ordered and pay extra for the privilege, then I did feel very much ripped off.

As our "awkward" colleague has pointed out above, if nobody buys new where will the secondhand gear come from?

guy
29-11-2014, 22:14
Have you heard the one about the hifi nut so obsessed with direct sales as the only pure and true way to sell he thinks any retailer like tesco is corrupt and a rip off. So he gets his eggs direct from the local farm, his loo roll direct from the paper mill, and his comfort from his right hand :D

Even better, recognize this quote:

"In my naievity I had assumed a level of rationality when I first joined AOS. The process of adjusting to the levels of nonsense some people allowed the vote are capable of has been rapid and bewildering."

left or right handed, still a tosser :lol:

User211
30-11-2014, 02:07
Yeah, you SAY that.........

Well I did two bake offs and a lot of people round with the last pair. So yeah, I do:)

Some like them, some don't. Just like anything else.

Oldpinkman
30-11-2014, 07:34
Guy. Life is dynamic not an eternal perpetual state. It is the failure to recognise that and adapt which traps many and dooms them to introspective self-pity. The scales have fallen from my eyes more than once since dipping a toe into the world of hifi forums. (just can't get to grips with fora. Sounds like herbology!). And when you know and understand something you know and understand the false claims of others who don't. I don't fear the dark - the lights won't go out on me ;)

Macca
30-11-2014, 10:18
But without new sales there are no secondhand products!

There are already enough products out there to last forever. Especially if you think that nothing has improved in the last 30 years. I've heard older amps, cd players, turntables, cartridges and speakers all outperforming their contempery counterparts, so I'm inclined to think that position caries some weight.

Effem
30-11-2014, 10:38
There are already enough products out there to last forever. Especially if you think that nothing has improved in the last 30 years. I've heard older amps, cd players, turntables, cartridges and speakers all outperforming their contempery counterparts, so I'm inclined to think that position caries some weight.

You are assuming of course that spare parts are always going to be available Martin, which nobody can guarantee. I think you will already find that a vast number of semiconductors have vanished off supplier's catalogues and custom made parts are already a nightmare to source.

I think what is driving this latest upsurge in buying older secondhand components is the lack of disposable income people are suffering from and when we have plenty of spare cash then we are more inclined to buy new. "No more boom and bust" said one famous politician but I think it's going to be a VERY long time before we see any signs of boom again

Macca
30-11-2014, 10:50
You are assuming of course that spare parts are always going to be available Martin, which nobody can guarantee. I think you will already find that a vast number of semiconductors have vanished off supplier's catalogues and custom made parts are already a nightmare to source.



So you do what I do and just buy two of everything. It only has to last me out, not last forever :) In my current system only the amplifier was bought new.

You may have a point about recession pushing people to look for bargains second hand though. Especially for something non-essential like hi-fi it is somewhere corners can be cut. The thing is, how many folk start out buying used because money is tight but will continue buying used even when their finances improve simply because they prefer it? And the box-swapper really has to buy used because if he bought new he would lose too much money when he sells on.

petrat
30-11-2014, 11:07
It's an age thing IMO. I teach business studies, so I usually end up chatting with dealers about their thoughts on the future of hifi retailing. Last year, one (successful, and highly entrepreneurial) owner asserted that 'all my customers are pensioners'. As a group, I guess retired folk have more time to consider their purchase and shop around to get a deal, as money may well be tight. They are also likely to be more sceptical of marketing claims, but, on the plus side, are more likely to be loyal to good service-providers. The two dealers I most often use have never ripped me off, or failed to go that extra mile to help, often at their expense. They don't push. They listen, I listen. I trust them. The bottom line is that I want them to continue to make a living, as they are good people, with an infectious enthusiasm and passion for this strange hobby. And, yes, I met a few 'rip-off' merchants over the years ... but they went out of business :)

The Barbarian
30-11-2014, 11:35
But without new sales there are no secondhand products!

Sorry but the old Barbarian would not be seen dead with a modern Hi-Fi product so makes no difference really.

Marco
30-11-2014, 11:49
Yup, if you’re solely into using vintage gear (pre 1980s), it matters not a jot what’s happening today in the hi-fi industry.

Marco.

awkwardbydesign
30-11-2014, 12:00
Yup, if you’re solely into using vintage gear (pre 1980s), it matters not a jot what’s happening today in the hi-fi industry.

Marco.

Well, yes it does. If there are less new sales, then secondhand prices will rise. And do you only buy 30 year old cables, plugs and everything else?

Marco
30-11-2014, 12:08
Nope, but Andre does :)

For me, in terms of secondhand prices, they are what they are. If I see something I like, and consider it worth the money, then I buy it. Simples. I don’t worry about prices rising (or not), due to less sales of new gear.

Marco.

awkwardbydesign
30-11-2014, 12:12
I don’t worry about prices rising (or not), due to less sales of new gear.

Marco.
Must be nice to be rich!

Macca
30-11-2014, 12:18
Well, yes it does. If there are less new sales, then secondhand prices will rise. ?

I'd suggest that would only be true for certain brands or specifically sort after items of a brand. All the other good stuff will remain under the radar, as it does today. Bit like the classic car market. And even there prices for the really sought -after cars at the top end can vary by tens of thousands just depending on trends and the economy.

Even if/when there were no big hi-fi manufacturers left you will still have DIY and the cottage industry. But they have no R&D, nothing will advance! Well nothing has advanced in audio except for the introduction of domestic digital playback and even with that most people still seem to prefer analogue.

Marco
30-11-2014, 12:21
Must be nice to be rich!

Not the case. I just don’t worry about things that, in reality, I have very little control over :)

Marco.

Marco
30-11-2014, 12:24
Well nothing has advanced in audio except for the introduction of domestic digital playback and even with that most people still seem to prefer analogue.

Well, the fact is not very much has genuinely advanced, which is why others and I with high-quality, largely vintage-only systems, do what we do :)

Marco.

Macca
30-11-2014, 12:31
Well, in reality not very much has genuinely advanced, which is why others and I with high-quality, largely vintage-only systems, do what we do :)

Marco.

The only thing in your system that is properly vintage are your speakers. Same with me, actually. I suppose CD players count as 'legacy' now, if not quite vintage yet. Your valve amps are modern designs and builds are they not?

Marco
30-11-2014, 12:44
The only thing in your system that is properly vintage are your speakers.


Lol - not true. Most of the valves I use, throughout my system, are NOS, from the 1950s, including the circuit for my preamp and power amp. Just because the boxes have been built in recent times, doesn’t make the equipment itself modern. The only thing modern about them is *some* of the internal components used.

I also have several genuine vintage cartridges - and even those I own that aren’t are based on 1950s/1960s technology, such as the SPU and Denon DL-103 respectively.

Even my Ortofon tonearm is based on a 1960s design. And of course the Techy itself was first introduced in 1972, and has changed little since then, albeit mine is now highly modified with the use of modern components, which is where the genuine advances in audio have occurred (ditto the crossovers on my Tannoys).

I also own a vintage tuner and cassette deck, from the 1970s and 1980s respectively.

In terms of my Sony CDP and DAC, both from the late 80s, whilst perhaps not being ‘vintage’ in the truest sense (although that is largely down to subjective interpretation), is hardly new, and certainly representative of very old digital technology.

Quite simply, I use this stuff because, to my ears, nothing modern that I’ve heard has sonically outperformed it, so I’m not on a ‘nostalgia trip’, nor am I some intransigent old fool. If someone introduced me to new gear which comprehensively trounced the old stuff I use, then I’d buy it and sell the old stuff instantly. It’s as simple as that.

I’m still waiting for that to happen, though! ;)

Marco.

Macca
30-11-2014, 13:09
Fair point about the NOS valves, I hadn't considered that. Amplifier circuits are basically all from the fifties and sixties, even class D is not new but from the early seventies.




Even my Ortofon tonearm is based on a 1960s design. And of course the Techy itself was first introduced in 1972, and has changed little since then, albeit mine is now highly modified with the use of modern components, which is where the genuine advances in audio have occurred (ditto the crossovers on my Tannoys).

.

There aren't any new materials in the Techy mods, there is nothing they could not have done in 1973 given the budget.

Marco
30-11-2014, 13:23
Not true in the case of the Paul Hynes PSU regulator modules, which are all his design, using the best of today’s components. Those couldn’t have been made in 1973, simply because the parts necessary for them to work weren’t around to produce them. They’re also fundamentally responsible for how my T/T sounds.

I don’t believe anyone was making ETP platters either in the 1970s.

In terms of amplifiers, my copper amp, for example, is based on the Williamson circuit (from the 1950s), with modifications by Anthony Matthews. It’s also chock-full of vintage 1940s and 1950s valves, and (some) vintage internal components, such as 1950s Mullard ‘mustard’ caps, and resistors, all of which are hard-wired (point-to-point) throughout the circuit, with zero use of PCBs.

In that respect, I simply don’t see how it can be considered as a modern amplifier, although it certainly sounds like one. The Croft is the same, built along the same principles by a different designer.

Marco.

struth
30-11-2014, 13:47
I think i only have 3 new bought things in all my gear. the beresford async. the firebottle and my q's speakers. That was because i couldnt either get them second hand or the difference made is not worthwhile. There is quite a hit financially buying most things new. bought my car 2nd hand too. ex disability. 3 years old with 20k on clock. saved 12k on price and had it 6 years without trouble

lurcher
30-11-2014, 14:12
In that respect, I simply don’t see how it can be viewed as a modern amplifier, although it sounds like one.

Probably not in the context of the thread, but I would argue the Williamson defined what is a "modern" valve amplifier. Ultra linear, push pull pentode output stage, valve phase splitter, negative feedback. It inherits from previous designs like the Wireless World quality amplifier, but that was triode output, zero feedback. The Williamson can defiantly be seen as a point that the standard design changed. there is a clear before and after. Solid state A and A/B push pull amps have just carried on doing the same thing, but with different devices.

Marco
30-11-2014, 14:21
Hi Nick,

I agree, especially in terms of what was defined by the Williamson circuit.

In terms of defining ‘modern’, well I guess it depends on which era you’re depicting. Del has an old cookery book, from the 1960s, the title of which is ‘Cooking in the modern age’ (that incidentally contains some superb recipes for ‘proper’ food), but ‘modern’ in today’s sense, it isn’t! ;)

Marco.

Marco
30-11-2014, 14:24
Btw, Nick, when were FETs invented?

Marco.

Oldpinkman
30-11-2014, 15:14
Btw, Nick, when were FETs invented?

Marco.

The first patent was filed in 1926 - before practical transistors were even developed in the late 40's.

julesd68
30-11-2014, 15:45
mine is now highly modified with the use of modern components, which is where the genuine advances in audio have occurred (ditto the crossovers on my Tannoys)

Hi Marco, I'd be very interested to hear what you did with your Tannoy crossovers and what changes that made to the sound. I have been wondering if it's a worthwhile exercise for a while...

lurcher
30-11-2014, 15:47
Yep, worth considering that the original point contact transistor was patented in 1947, same year the Williamson circuit was published.

Another interesting fact, one of the original patents on the FET was by Oskar Heil, who also invented the air-motion transformer which ESS still sell.

http://www.essspeakersusa.com/264-600_lI.jpg

Marco
30-11-2014, 21:02
Hi Marco, I'd be very interested to hear what you did with your Tannoy crossovers and what changes that made to the sound. I have been wondering if it's a worthwhile exercise for a while...

Hi Jules,

Hope you are well. Most definitely worth it! :)

There are all sorts of threads on the subject here, so maybe try a search and see what comes up. Otherwise, PM me and I’ll give you my number, and we can have a proper chat about it :cool:

Marco.

Marco
30-11-2014, 21:08
Yep, worth considering that the original point contact transistor was patented in 1947, same year the Williamson circuit was published.


Indeed, that is interesting :)

Gone are the days when any REAL innovation occurs in audio, certainly of the type of magnitude of what happened in the 40s and 50s (and even before that).

Marco.

SLS
01-12-2014, 11:06
I've decided the UK audio industry is not rip-off at all. To be "rip-off", it has to operate a monopoly, or close to, and then overcharge. Apple comes to mind.

An industry like the audio industry in the UK is so fragmented and competitive that it is probably incapable of ripping anyone off. Some prices may be high due to needing a big gross margin to cover the operating costs of a low volume operation. The high volume manufacturers generally work on very thin margins. The TV business, for example, is ultra-competitive.

If you do get ripped off, it is probably your own fault. That said, I last paid about £200 for a very good pair of shoes (and that was the duty-free price), a brand I've been wearing for years and they last years. I could get a pair hand made to order for £500. Probably not any better, but the audiophile equivalent in that they have to be more expensive just to cover the costs.

For many reliable products there is no need to buy new and the manufacturers consider used to be key part of the market. Look at the car industry. Sometimes they make more money on the trade-ins than the actual car they are selling.

If the industry was more consolidated the design and manufacturing costs would probably be cheaper, the products cheaper, but the manufacturers would probably be more profitable.

walpurgis
01-12-2014, 11:10
I've decided the UK audio industry is not rip-off at all. To be "rip-off", it has to operate a monopoly, or close to, and then overcharge.

Glad we got that sorted (does that mean the thread is dead now?) :D

julesd68
01-12-2014, 16:18
Hi Jules,

Hope you are well. Most definitely worth it! :)

There are all sorts of threads on the subject here, so maybe try a search and see what comes up. Otherwise, PM me and I’ll give you my number, and we can have a proper chat about it :cool:

Marco.

Thanks Marco that's most kind. I had a quick look and couldn't find what I was after but I'll have a proper dig around later and see what's what ...