Veneering, dear oh dear.

[RMutt]

I'm a handy chap. Can't be difficult can it? Well..... I have bought iron on veneer in ten inch width strips to cover my Magisters. This means I have to lay the strips side by side. The trouble is the veneer shrinks when ironed leaving a gap of about an eighth of an inch. The recommended method of sticking the strips together using gummed paper strip is not working. I have effected a reasonable repair using very thin pieces to fill in the gap but it is not ideal and I certainly would like to avoid it on the tops. Any tips or indeed ideas anyone?

[The Barbarian]

If you are laying veneer side by side the iron stuff is no good if you want to do it right!

[Cotlake]

A method used by professional decorators when wall papering might work. I don't know... This is just a suggestion.

Overlay the edges of the veneer at the joint and apply heat as normal. While the glue is still soft and manageable, use a straight edge across the overlapped joint and run a scalpel blade along it to cut through both layers of veneer. Lift the edges and remove the cut off sections and then press the edge of the joint into place.

[RMutt]

Good idea Greg, I'll try that on my next section. Thanks Andre but I've bought it and started now. We live and learn.

[walpurgis]

That may work OK, but I'd do the following:

You don't have to iron your veneer on. It has adhesive on the back which is dry to touch, but if you just apply contact adhesive to the cabinet only, leave it until it's getting tacky (but not dry) and just lay the iron on veneer In place, you'll find the opposing glued faces will grip each other. Then just rub down into place with a softwood block. It works!

Butt or overlap and trim as suits you.

[The Barbarian]

Thanks Andre but I've bought it and started now. We live and learn.

I say this because you cannot book match the pieces as the glue is already applied to the veneer

http://www.graefe.co.uk/wood-veneer-book-matching/

[struth]

That may work OK, but I'd do the following:

You don't have to iron your veneer on. It has adhesive on the back which is dry to touch, but if you just apply contact adhesive to the cabinet only, leave it until it's getting tacky (but not dry) and just lay the iron on veneer In place, you'll find the opposing glued faces will grip each other. Then just rub down into place with a softwood block. It works!

Butt or overlap and trim as suits you.

+1 on that...Ive done that as well and you get a better grip where it does not peel off when it dries out in a few years with central heating etc.

[awkwardbydesign]

Fablon. :laugh:
Sorry, I've been drinking (Duvel).
I have just had several weeks of veneering hell. And then I dropped one of the speakers damaging the veneer on the back. And they were for someone else!
I use masking tape across the join stretched tight, and Evostik. I haven't enjoyed iron-on. Also I cut the pieces to be joined with a knife and straight edge, then sand the edge of the veneer against a straight edge of an MDF sheet, with a slight outward angle, so the top edges of the veneer are tight together, and then stretch the masking tape across at 90 degrees every couple of inches, before running a line of tape along the join. I also give the veneer a coat of pre-cat lacquer (NOT water based) before I start; this minimises splitting and glue seep-through. A wallpaper seam roller or rubber printer's roller is good for pressing down.
Did I mention I have been drinking? :drunk:

[walpurgis]

Fablon? Fablon? Go and stand in the corner right now!! :)



I don't quite get the masking tape bit. I've done loads of veneered cabinets and always used Thixofix allowed to go tacky before applying the veneer. Obviously care is needed with joins, edges and corners. But I end up with good enough results for people to ask me what make the speakers are because they think they're manufactured. A roller can be useful, but I'll stick with my rubbing the veneer down (along the grain) with a softwood block.

If you want a real bit of fun try applying Oak veneer. It's usually warped, brittle and splits when you try to cut it. Avoid! (you can damp it to make it workable, but then contact adhesive won't work). I have used it successfully, but it's a real pain!

[awkwardbydesign]

Fablon? Fablon? Go and stand in the corner right now!! :)



I don't quite get the masking tape bit. I've done loads of veneered cabinets and always used Thixofix allowed to go tacky before applying the veneer. Obviously care is needed with joins, edges and corners. But I end up with good enough results for people to ask me what make the speakers are because they think they're manufactured. A roller can be useful, but I'll stick with my rubbing the veneer down (along the grain) with a softwood block.

If you want a real bit of fun try applying Oak veneer. It's usually warped, brittle and splits when you try to cut it. Avoid! (you can damp it to make it workable, but then contact adhesive won't work). I have used it successfully, but it's a real pain!
After making the long cuts along the grain, the veneer needs to be held together before applying glue to the back. I use masking tape pulled tight across the join, on the front face. Then run a strip all the way along to stop any glue seeping through. I press it down with a roller (a wood block would tear off the tape), remove the tape, and THEN use a birch ply stick (300x30x19mm) with slightly rounded/chamfered end and keep rubbing the veneer down until it's flat all over. If there are any bubbles I may slit them and then keep going over them until flat.
You say oak is tricky, and I agree, MY speakers are oak veneered, but cherry was as bad in a different way. Cutting and joining is easier, but as it is soft it bubbles very easily, and there is no hiding them, as the grain pattern is too open.
You can just see my rubbing stick on the right; one end has a notch for rubbing the edges.

http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m604/awkwardbydesign/P1000269_zpsbea2e1fd.jpg (http://s1134.photobucket.com/user/awkwardbydesign/media/P1000269_zpsbea2e1fd.jpg.html)

Cherry is nice for trimming round driver cutouts. These fronts were not pre-lacquered as there is no join.
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m604/awkwardbydesign/20140809_115137_zpsv9in4sju.jpg (http://s1134.photobucket.com/user/awkwardbydesign/media/20140809_115137_zpsv9in4sju.jpg.html)

Mine are oak veneered, which was a pig to cut and join, but being harder didn't bubble as much and the grain hid it better anyway. Curving it round the tight radius at the front edges took care and patience, though! Lacquering was easier too, as brush or roller marks don't show up.
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m604/awkwardbydesign/JENZEN%20SEAS%20ER/1f1215ad-1d78-4cc6-adf5-7276f85ff56b_zps022b685f.jpg (http://s1134.photobucket.com/user/awkwardbydesign/media/JENZEN%20SEAS%20ER/1f1215ad-1d78-4cc6-adf5-7276f85ff56b_zps022b685f.jpg.html)

And it works well on steel!
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m604/awkwardbydesign/JENZEN%20SEAS%20ER/dc6a92cb-6afc-480e-b515-344fd3e1651d_zps3f5e028c.jpg (http://s1134.photobucket.com/user/awkwardbydesign/media/JENZEN%20SEAS%20ER/dc6a92cb-6afc-480e-b515-344fd3e1651d_zps3f5e028c.jpg.html)

[surv1v0r]

<snip>
If you want a real bit of fun try applying Oak veneer.
<snip>

<snip>
You say oak is tricky, and I agree, MY speakers are oak veneered, but cherry was as bad in a different way.
<snip>What veneer is easy to fit then?
Decades ago I tried veneering some speaker cabinets and failed miserably :(
I would very much like to give it another go and would greatly appreciate any advice. Googling about, I get the feeling that "Iron-on" is particularly tricky and am inclined to go for "Peel And Stick" - is that actually easier?
Cabinets involved are 32 cms (>12") deep and unfortunately some of the cabinet panel edges are not 100% square - any suggestions what I can use to "square" them up (e.g. Toupret filler)?

[Gordon Steadman]

I don't think there is a veneer that is easy to fit.

I have never trusted iron on so always use good old Evostick which actually does stick. I tend to overlap the joints and use a scalpel. I leave half an inch glue free until the joint is cut and then run glue in. This means there can be no movement. The joint is held up with a scrap of veneer and then rolled down when the glue is tacky.

Basically, its practice that makes perfect. Mind you, even after 40 years experience I still buggered up one side of the Teufels I made recently. Had to strip it off and redo it. Very sharp chisels are very useful things.

[awkwardbydesign]

What veneer is easy to fit then?
Decades ago I tried veneering some speaker cabinets and failed miserably :(
I would very much like to give it another go and would greatly appreciate any advice. Googling about, I get the feeling that "Iron-on" is particularly tricky and am inclined to go for "Peel And Stick" - is that actually easier?
Cabinets involved are 32 cms (>12") deep and unfortunately some of the cabinet panel edges are not 100% square - any suggestions what I can use to "square" them up (e.g. Toupret filler)?
Not Wenge! Nightmare stuff.
Actually, I find oak not too bad, it's just cutting straight edges along the grain to join 2 pieces invisibly that is hard. Otherwise I have no complaints. And if you buy wide enough sheets that isn't needed. http://www.woodveneer4u.co.uk/SelfAdhesiveWoodVeneer.html
And I have just used polyester car body filler to square off rounded corners under that cherry veneer.
Bear in mind that my complaints are about using old, therefore cheap, veneers from a local shop. If you buy fresher veneer it may be easier. Mine is very dry.

[walpurgis]

Not Wenge! Nightmare stuff.
Actually, I find oak not too bad, it's just cutting straight edges along the grain to join 2 pieces invisibly that is hard. Otherwise I have no complaints. And if you buy wide enough sheets that isn't needed. http://www.woodveneer4u.co.uk/SelfAdhesiveWoodVeneer.html
And I have just used polyester car body filler to square off rounded corners under that cherry veneer.
Bear in mind that my complaints are about using old, therefore cheap, veneers from a local shop. If you buy fresher veneer it may be easier. Mine is very dry.

Buying a stiff, long (no jokes please) straight edge helps no end cutting veneer, disposable scalpels are good too.

I've also used the car bodyfiller dodge. It works. I prefer to let in a bit of wood where I can though.

I've found good plain veneer and contact adhesive the easiest route.

As Gordon suggests, you get better at it with practice and you don't get that without having a bash!

[RMutt]

Well I did try Greg's idea and it did not work unfortunately. After overlapping and ironing the join I tried to peel back the veneers to remove the excess, but too much glue was left on the surface that was going to be seen. It was also tricky to peel back without splintering. I have had more success with Geoff's suggestion of gluing without ironing. Even butting up two edges cut by the manufacturer leaves small gaps. It is certainly trickier than I imagined.

[walpurgis]

Contact adhesive left on veneer surfaces can be removed by scraping the worst of with a bare Stanley blade and wiping the remainder off with cellulose thinners. Don't wet the veneer surface any more than necessary as the thinners will soften the adhesive under it. Although the thinners will evaporate off very quickly and once dry a wood block will rub the veneer back down if it lifts.

If you have small gaps at joins, try Ronseal coloured wood filler. You should find it in a suitable shade and it won't show once sanded. It also takes polishes and lacquers without problems.

[awkwardbydesign]

Contact adhesive left on veneer surfaces can be removed by scraping the worst of with a bare Stanley blade and wiping the remainder off with cellulose thinners. Don't wet the veneer surface any more than necessary as the thinners will soften the adhesive under it. Although the thinners will evaporate off very quickly and once dry a wood block will rub the veneer back down if it lifts.

If you have small gaps at joins, try Ronseal coloured wood filler. You should find it in a suitable shade and it won't show once sanded. It also takes polishes and lacquers without problems.
I'm never happy with trying to remove Evostik. Thinners tend to discolour the veneer, IME, but pre-lacquering can minimise that. However, if the cut isn't perfect first time, there is no way to redo it. Cutting, then sanding with a long block against a straight board of MDF works for me. It can even be modified before final taping and gluing. Everyone sems to find a way that works for them, so I'm afraid you have make your own mistakes first. Sorry.
And if you are referring to water based filler, it changes colour as it dries, then again when it is lacquered. I use it, but have to mix my own colour. I use wax sticks for the final gap fill sometimes, but that has its own set of problems too. At the moment I'm trying to find some cherry hard wax, the stuff like sealing wax, that you have to melt and drip in. It still won't match, I bet! Which means pieceing in some matched venneer, following the grain lines, to repair the speaker I dropped. Just as I had finished it! At least it's on the back.
I've gone off veneering. Flock wallpaper next time.

[walpurgis]

Flock wallpaper next time.


No. Mirror tiles surely! :D



Thinners can leave a 'watermark'. If that happens a brief sanding with fine paper can blend it in, failing that a quick rub over the whole panel with Meths normally makes things look even again.

Yes I was referring to water based thinners. I had great success with it on my Tannoy refurb a couple of years ago. It doesn't need to be an exact match. I hid all the many little knocks and chips with it and you just can't see them at all.

[Gordon Steadman]

Just tell everyone that its wood init. It has grain see. Can't expect it to be all neat and tidy, means its real and not that printed stuff.

I worry about every little imperfection. Ronnie says "what imperfection?" Problem is that I know its there and it bugs me but no-one else seems to notice.

[awkwardbydesign]

Just tell everyone that its wood init. It has grain see. Can't expect it to be all neat and tidy, means its real and not that printed stuff.

I worry about every little imperfection. Ronnie says "what imperfection?" Problem is that I know its there and it bugs me but no-one else seems to notice.
Oh yes. Even when it's round the back!
BTW, I don't think we're actually encouraging the OP!

[RMutt]

Ha ha, don't worry about me, I'm cracking on with it, learning as I go! What I have decided is, to never use iron on veneer unless you can cover a side with one piece. You just cannot predict how it will shrink and butting up two pieces is a no-no. I have finished one cabinet and it looks OK, but if I was buying it new from a shop I would be immediately sending it back.

[Gordon Steadman]

Oh yes. Even when it's round the back!
BTW, I don't think we're actually encouraging the OP!

So what else is new?

I trust Andrew has at least got something from our ramblings. Andrew?

[Gordon Steadman]

Ha ha, don't worry about me, I'm cracking on with it, learning as I go! What I have decided is, to never use iron on veneer unless you can cover a side with one piece. You just cannot predict how it will shrink and butting up two pieces is a no-no. I have finished one cabinet and it looks OK, but if I was buying it new from a shop I would be immediately sending it back.

Hah, beat me to it. Glad you haven't been put off:)

[RMutt]

No, not put off, far from it and appreciate the help. They would look alright, as my grandfather used to say, to a blind man on a galloping horse.

[synsei]

No, not put off, far from it and appreciate the help. They would look alright, as my grandfather used to say, to a blind man on a galloping horse.

:lol:

[awkwardbydesign]

Pictures when you've finished, please. Then we can all laugh.
No, but seriously, have fun.

[surv1v0r]

Any further news (pictures) on the veneering front?

[Qwin]

Good veneering is down to using the right technique.

I have veneered on to alloy castings and even concrete and had to match several pieces to cover the surface and I would challenge anyone to spot the joins.

Firstly never try to join two pieces of iron-on veneer with masking tape as this has a heat sensetive glue and when it gets warm the veneer will slip away.

One method is to cut the edge of the first piece with a sharp scalpel and straight edge to true it up.
Iron this piece into position.
Now square off the second piece and line it up with the edge of the first and match the grain pattern.
Tape the joint using old fashioned gummed paper, this is water based so you have to wet it to get it to stick.
Allow to dry then Iron along the joint, then move to the oposite edge of the sheet and Iron towards the joint line.
Remove the tape by dampening with a wet sponge, several applications will be needed but avoid over wetting the surrounding veneer.
Job done.

Note - allow veneer to dry out indoors if it has been stored outside. This will reduce the amount moisture it holds and the amount of shrink back when applying.

There are two types of Iron on veneer, one ready glued and one where the glue comes as a separate clear sheet that can be used with any plain veneer. This is handy if using more exotic types such as burr veneer as they don’t normally come ready glued. All of the pre-glued veneer that I have used has had a cream coloured glue on the back. This is a pain to disguise on joint and edge lines when using dark woods such as Walnut. The separate glue sheet is available as a completely clear film and is invisible in use.

I would look at the YouTube tutorials on veneering and finishing, not the DIY bloke type, but the very good ones from the trade. The woodworkers guild of America do some excellent tutorials on applying and finishing, I learnt a lot from these.

[RobsterD]

Cold press for me every time using the titebond glue and blue tesla tape
Lenco PTP5 project - lots of sanding and finishing to do !

http://i886.photobucket.com/albums/ac68/RobsterD/CIMG1754_zps0a2cad39.jpg
http://i886.photobucket.com/albums/ac68/RobsterD/CIMG1716_zps03daef33.jpg
http://i886.photobucket.com/albums/ac68/RobsterD/CIMG1736_zps479f99ba.jpg

[RMutt]

'Good veneering is down to using the right technique.' Are you sure it's not like making love to a beautiful woman Qwin? and RobsterD uses the worlds supply of G-clamps for his veneering, crikey! I did finish my job, after a fashion, and as a special treat (laugh) for you I'll do some pictures tomorrow. I did use the gummed strip technique initially but gave up after each piece of veneer shrank to a fraction of it's original size. I ended up putting the iron away and gluing them with evo-stick.

[RMutt]

Here we go just insert veneer where he says carpet or wallpaper. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hr3hP0CeiQo

[awkwardbydesign]

and as a special treat (laugh) for you I'll do some pictures tomorrow. I did use the gummed strip technique initially but gave up after each piece of veneer shrank to a fraction of it's original size. I ended up putting the iron away and gluing them with evo-stick.
Ooh, goody. I need cheering up! :lol:
I found that the gummed paper method wrinkled the veneer I was using. In the end I used masking tape stretched tight across the join every few inches and then ran a strip all the way along it. And Evostuck it. Also a sealing coat of pre-cat lacquer before starting helped to stabilise the veneer and prevent Evostik solvent seeping through. If there was any join visible after more lacquer I used a matching soft wax stick before the final lacquer coat(s).
And then with my friend's speakers, which I was repairing, I dropped one just as I had finished them! I'm still working out how to repair it without re-doing the whole back.
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m604/awkwardbydesign/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-09/20140929_143928_zpsyeskstvn.jpg (http://s1134.photobucket.com/user/awkwardbydesign/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-09/20140929_143928_zpsyeskstvn.jpg.html)

[Qwin]

A patch repair is very difficult to blend in.

Far easier to remove the veneer on the whole panel and start again.

With Iron-on you just warm it up with a hot air gun and run a flat paint scraper under the sheet to lift it away with very little effort.

I have only once tried to remove some veneer that I evo sticked, after a lot of effort and time wasted I had to scrap the job. Even using power sanders etc the glue just clogs the abrasive. Never used it for veneer since though it is usefull for other purposes.

If you have some more of the original veneer, it quite often comes as successive sheets off the same plank, you can find the same peice of pattern in the grain. You could cut a piece out on the speaker using a sharp scalpel, follow the pattern in the grain to cut a kind of triangle out, the base being along the top edge. You will have a hell of a job removing the old, but a sharp chisel will get most of it off, you can use acetone and a scraper to remove lumpy glue left behind, its a sticky messy job. Once this has dried get a piece of tracing paper and lay it over the area and rub a pencil around the edge to pick up the exact shape you have cut out. Cut the tracing paper shape out and lay it on to the new veneer to get a match on the grain pattern. mark it out with a pencil then cut on the inside of the pencil line to give you the patch peice of veneer. Stick this patch in using the same evo-stick method you used for the original. Its a bit like doing marquetry. Apply wax ect to bridge any joint gap.

It's the best I can come up with but not easy to do, I have done similar when using expensive Burr Walnut that had a hole in the sheet that I started with. Bits with holes in come cheaper.

Good luck with it, it seems like you did a good job before the damage.

[Gordon Steadman]

A patch repair is very difficult to blend in.

Far easier to remove the veneer on the whole panel and start again.

have only once tried to remove some veneer that I evo sticked, after a lot of effort and time wasted I had to scrap the job. Even using power sanders etc the glue just clogs the abrasive. Never used it for veneer since though it is usefull for other purposes.


I managed to run out of veneer before I finished the job on the Teufels. I stripped off the veneer with a chisel. But, as I've said before, the chisel needs to be scary sharp and care is needed not to cut into the surface of the work. Patience and care and its quite straightforward, just time consuming. Bit like veneering in the first place:)

I don't use power sanders on any job that requires accuracy.

[walpurgis]

I agree with Ken. Patching is nigh on impossible to hide. I have done it though and found the best way is to have irregular patch shapes and edges, at least that way you don't have a straight join staring you in the face. Tricky finding a grain pattern and colour match though. If there's any distinct figuring that makes it even harder. If you do patch, it's probably best to re-polish the whole panel or even cabinet, then it may not show too much.

[awkwardbydesign]

I have some more of the original veneer, so I can match. And it was possible to lift the Evostuck veneer with a hot iron when it was fresh; don't know about a month later. I'm hoping to follow the grain line and piece in, but cherry is a bit bland and doesn't have really sharp grain lines. My oak veneered speakers would be much easier. I plan to take some tracing paper along next time I'm there and get a good line to follow. I would fill with hard wax and add stained lines, but don't have the confidence, and enough colours for mixing, to risk that. And re-veneering means carrying it home (and back) and I might drop it again!
I told him I didn't want to do it in the first place, but he nagged me into it!

[walpurgis]

I told him I didn't want to do it in the first place, but he nagged me into it!

No good deed goes unpunished! :eek:

[struth]

I've got soft and hard wax and grain pens etc if you want to try them.

[RMutt]

Here we go then. It was too dark, even in daylight hours, to take pictures without the flash. And guess what, the flash has made them look even more ghastly, great. The close ups really do look a mess, but in fairness, in normal light they don't really look that bad. The picture with the double join line is where the veneer shrunk so much I had to patch in. So far, no-one has cut themselves on them or snagged their clothing!
http://i60.tinypic.com/106fv3o.jpg
IMG]http://i60.tinypic.com/28vuhiw.jpg[/IMG]
http://i57.tinypic.com/igzpzk.jpg

[RMutt]

http://i60.tinypic.com/106fv3o.jpg
IMG]http://i60.tinypic.com/28vuhiw.jpg[/IMG]
http://i57.tinypic.com/igzpzk.jpg
Pictures again, one went missing

[RMutt]

Still missing!I'll try again! http://i60.tinypic.com/28vuhiw.jpg

[awkwardbydesign]

I've got soft and hard wax and grain pens etc if you want to try them.

Thanks, I may take you up on that if I bottle the patching!

[Gordon Steadman]

If I'm doing speakers now, I refuse to use veneer that is narrower than the piece I'm covering. Makes life a whole lot easier. I have a load of bird's eye maple in the loft that is 45 cms wide. Might be a few pairs all done in the same wood!!

If I had to do it, I wouldn't try and butt joint. Leave an overlap and use a scalpel and straight edge to cut through both layers, using a very slight angle towards the back of the speaker. That way, if there is any gap at all, the light won't catch the edge. Its especially difficult if you are staining the veneer because it can be guaranteed that a nice dark line will develop up the join.

As I said though, one piece from choice and no corners even better:).

[awkwardbydesign]

As I said though, one piece from choice and no corners even better:).
Wuss!

[Gordon Steadman]

Wuss!

You got me in one:)