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DaveK
26-07-2009, 14:02
Hi All,
My listening room's main function is TV viewing room and space for more 'black boxes' and speakers is limited (i.e. not available). I have got my hi-fi set up pretty much to my satisfaction and also with a reasonable WAF. I now want to extend it to include a 5.1 surround sound system. I have room to accomodate my Marantz SS amp and my plan is to use the hi-fi speakers as Front L & R speakers wired to both hi-fi and SS amps. I think that I can also persuade wifey to accept the 2 rear speakers as they are relatively small and almost disappear in the corners of the room. My problem is accomodating the active sub-woofer which has a WAF of zero.
So, ....... I would like advice on the following compromise: -
Beneath my listening/viewing room is a cellar around 4 feet deep with a very thick concrete floor, bare rough brick walls and the roof (floor of listening/viewing room) is 4 x 2 joists covered by the usual tongue and groove floorboards. The thought occurred that I could 'lose' the subwoofer into the cellar and still get the desired effect in the viewing room (the sub-woofer would ONLY be used as part of the 5.1 SS system and NOT for hi-fi listening - the power would be fed via the 5.1 amp). Getting the power lead and speaker cable down there would not be a problem. My thinking is that if the sub-woofer has enough 'oomph' I could get the effect in the room above.
Does anyone have any thoughts or advice, for or against?
I realise that this solution falls way short of ideal but is it likely to be better than no sub-woofer at all?
Also, if anyone has a suitable sub-woofer available for me to loan to test the theory or one for sale at a price to suit a poor old Yorkshire pensioner I would be happy to put you on my Christmas card list :lol:
Cheers,

DSJR
26-07-2009, 14:30
I used to like M&K subs as they worked really well with music. SOME REL subs are awsome, but many of the older ones were tuneless and thumpy - fine for films but not for music at all. What about Def-Tech?

I'd still rather you got some decent larger stand-mounts or floor-standers and use them as full-range front speakers, but as I was never into "home theatre" so can't comment any more..

The Vinyl Adventure
26-07-2009, 22:19
i would think with a bloody big sub down there it might add something but i doubt that something would be that much cop.
my recomendation for suround sound when adding to a current hifi sytem is to get a ss amp with multi channel outs
you then use the front channels of the multi channel out to go into one of the inputs on your stereo system so the front left and right channles are powered by your stereo and the rears and centre are powerd by the ss amp.
to get the levels right if you set you stereo to a comfortable listening level that is a point that youcan remember to put it back to each time you use it as part of the ss (9 oclock on my amp is where i have it set) and then either test tone from each speaker and a db meter ... or nowadays just stick the amp on auto calibrate (you will prob have to adjust the levels to taste after auto cal is a bit crap for the most part)
when you have got to that stage then see how it sounds without a sub. i have my sub turned down so low it only adds a little rumble on the big explosions! like djsr says a big decent pair of floor standers are usually a better option.... the sound just fits together better if that makes sence

DaveK
26-07-2009, 22:36
What about Def-Tech?
I'd still rather you got some decent larger stand-mounts or floor-standers and use them as full-range front speakers, but as I was never into "home theatre" so can't comment any more..

Hi Dave,
Thanks for your input. Sorry to prove what an audiophile ignoramus I am but what is 'Def-Tech'?
I would still rather get some decent floor standers but they have a WAF of below zero. I once bought some from Richer Sounds but wifey made much more noise than they would have done with the wick turned fully up so they (or Sue or me) had to go :steam: :lolsign:. New furniture purchased but not yet delivered now preclude floor standers (no floor room) and, having only recently 'invested' in my MS Mezzo 2s, larger stand mounts are also out of the question for a while. Sue still thinks her iPod and Bose dock are better than my hi-fi, so there is little hope on the horizon
Thanks anyway.
Cheers,

DaveK
26-07-2009, 22:51
i would think with a bloody big sub down there it might add something but i doubt that something would be that much cop.
my recomendation for suround sound when adding to a current hifi sytem is to get a ss amp with multi channel outs I already have one.
you then use the front channels of the multi channel out to go into one of the inputs on your stereo system so the front left and right channles are powered by your stereo and the rears and centre are powerd by the ss amp.
to get the levels right if you set you stereo to a comfortable listening level that is a point that youcan remember to put it back to each time you use it as part of the ss (9 oclock on my amp is where i have it set) and then either test tone from each speaker and a db meter ... or nowadays just stick the amp on auto calibrate (you will prob have to adjust the levels to taste after auto cal is a bit crap for the most part) Don't have either auto-calibrate or sound meter
when you have got to that stage then see how it sounds without a sub. i have my sub turned down so low it only adds a little rumble on the big explosions! like djsr says a big decent pair of floor standers are usually a better option.... the sound just fits together better if that makes sence

Hi Hamish,
Thanks for your input - very useful and I think that I follow it with the exceptions noted in blue above. Will give it a try and let you know how it goes. If I understand correctly what you say my source, when using surround sound (in practice this will be my Sony BDP-350 Blu-Ray player), will need 2 outputs running simultaneously, 1 to feed the SS amp and 1 to feed the stereo amp - have I understood you correctly?
Cheers,

The Vinyl Adventure
26-07-2009, 23:34
good new on the ss amp situation

not quite sorry... only one output from the bdps350
plug it into the ss amp via coax
plug your rear and centre speakers in to the ss amp
then with a normal pair of interconects go from the 2 front channel outputs on the multi channel pre outs from the back of the amp into the stereo

this way your ss amp is acting as a pre amp to your stereo amp for suround sound and so when you set your stereo to that pre decided level (9 oclock or whatever you decide) the volume for all channels is controled at the same time by the ss amp when listening to films

this metod means no impact on your current stereo system as your ss is as far as your stereo is concerned is just another input

i hope that makes more sence?

if you dont have a sound pressure meter or auto cal just sit in the place where you will watch a film from and adjust all the levels on the outputs on the ss amp to taste.

DaveK
27-07-2009, 08:19
Thanks Hamish,
That makes much more sense, even to me :lol:.
In my naivete I thought that pre-amps and amps were two completely different pieces of kit, that is, if I put a 'normal' sound signal through a pre-amp and then from there through a normal amp the signal would be boosted to such an extent that something down the line would 'blow', speakers maybe - could prove expensive. Am I to understand that a pre-amp and a normal amp are in fact similar to each other and there is no danger of exceeding the input limits of kit further down the line, my Stan-DAC 7520 for instance?
Thanks for your help.

Covenant
27-07-2009, 09:54
Dave,
Your Maranz amp (if its a home cinema decoder amp) will have a settings menu dependant on thetype of speakers you have. If you decide on the cellar for the sub-woofer set the front speakers to large as this sends more bass info through them. I find this is better with my own set up even though the sub is in the same room.
You really will lose most of the slam effect with the sub in another room.
A simple solution would be to buy the wife a large box of chocs and promise to do the washing up for a week. Then sneak the sub into the living room.

DaveK
27-07-2009, 10:09
Dave,
Your Maranz amp (if its a home cinema decoder amp(Yes it is)) will have a settings menu dependant on thetype of speakers you have.Yes it does) If you decide on the cellar for the sub-woofer set the front speakers to large as this sends more bass info through them. Confusing (to me) as, if putting in a sub-woofer where previously there wasn't one, I would have thought the best idea would be to send more bass to the sub-woofer, where it can be best implemented, rather than to the 'jack of all trades, master of none' main speakers.I find this is better with my own set up even though the sub is in the same room.
You really will lose most of the slam effect with the sub in another room.
A simple solution would be to buy the wife a large box of chocs and promise to do the washing up for a week. She's mildly diabetic so overindulging her taste for chocolate is a no-no and we have a built in dishwasher !! Need a plan 'B' ;) Then sneak the sub into the living room.

Hi Jerry,
Thanks for your input - see quick comments in blue above. Just as an aside, we got our first dishwasher some time ago solely on the recommendation of a cousin of mine. I just couldn't visualise the advantages that he outlined, but boy, was I wrong - wouldn't be without one now!!
On the subject of loaned digital leads, take your time evaluating yours, I'm in no hurry for you to pass yours on.
Cheers,

The Vinyl Adventure
27-07-2009, 10:20
Thanks Hamish,
That makes much more sense, even to me :lol:.
In my naivete I thought that pre-amps and amps were two completely different pieces of kit, that is, if I put a 'normal' sound signal through a pre-amp and then from there through a normal amp the signal would be boosted to such an extent that something down the line would 'blow', speakers maybe - could prove expensive. Am I to understand that a pre-amp and a normal amp are in fact similar to each other and there is no danger of exceeding the input limits of kit further down the line, my Stan-DAC 7520 for instance?
Thanks for your help.

a pre amp in its most simple form is just a volume and input switch
have a look at the back of you ss amp there should be a section of outputs called "pre-outs" or "multi channel out" this is where you take and output into your stereo. im sure you have already worked this bit out but.. its called a pre amp because it is before the signal gets amplifyed. so if you run anything from this part of the amp it will never exede the amount of signal that anyother source (eg cd player) puts out.

a small complication has just occured to me now you have mentioned the fact you have a standac!
are you going to be using the bdps350 as your source for cds or just film?

DSJR
27-07-2009, 10:44
Def-Tech - Definitive Technology...

I'm not a home cinema fan so can't offer any more advice I'm afraid, apart from saying that once our son commandered the adjacent dining room for his lego (all over the table) and DVD/video watching, she relaxed no end about me having speakers in the sitting room. I still feel the BC2's are visually a bit intrusive, but she says she doesn't mind and is pleased that I'm getting such a good sound.

DaveK
27-07-2009, 12:50
a pre amp in its most simple form is just a volume and input switch
a small complication has just occured to me now you have mentioned the fact you have a standac!
are you going to be using the bdps350 as your source for cds or just film?

Hi Hamish,
Thanks again. In answer to your last question I don't use it as a source for CDs (my pc has a DVD/CD player. used for ripping etc and I have a stand-alone Marantz CDP used as source for playing CDs - well covered ;) ).
However I do have a small collection of music DVDs and I output the video direct to TV via HDMI lead, (with volume down to zero) and output sound by co-ax through the 7520 and on to Marantz amp and thence on to speakers. Does that give you the information you need?
Cheers,

Covenant
27-07-2009, 15:25
Hi Jerry,
Thanks for your input - see quick comments in blue above. Just as an aside, we got our first dishwasher some time ago solely on the recommendation of a cousin of mine. I just couldn't visualise the advantages that he outlined, but boy, was I wrong - wouldn't be without one now!!
On the subject of loaned digital leads, take your time evaluating yours, I'm in no hurry for you to pass yours on.
Cheers,

The sub woofer in the basement can be sent too much of the upper bass frequencies which will be totally lost. With the menu set to large you will get better directional information-i.e left and right car doors slamming for example.

See PM Dave

The Vinyl Adventure
27-07-2009, 15:45
yeah it does
the standac wont process suround sound, only 2 channel.
this isnt ness a problem though, i have my bdp-s550 going into the ss amp out of one set of outputs and into the standac with another!
this alows me to decide how i was to listen to it, 5.1 source stuff just goes direct into the ss amp
stereo stuff (my missis uses it as a cd player) goes into the standac then to the stereo

make sence? im not so great at explaining stuff on here i usually just come here for advice as aposed to giving it so i hope this has helped (i do actually work a day a week in a hifi/camera shop where we mainly sell ss kit, i just find it easier to explain what i mean when i can point at stuff)

DaveK
27-07-2009, 16:36
Hi Hamish,
Yes it all makes sense, thank you. I am a lot wiser now and when we finish this bloody decorating (if it doesn't finish me first :lol:) and I get round to connecting everything up again, if I can remember how :scratch:, I'll do what you suggest and see how it sounds.
I know I'm teaching Grandma to suck eggs as they say, but NEVER undercharge (unless it's me :lolsign: ), particularly arrogant Germans - if they demand premium service they should pay premium prices, particularly corporate guys, it all comes out of expenses anyway!
Here endeth today's lesson. :lolsign:
Cheers,

The Vinyl Adventure
27-07-2009, 22:15
ok well when it comes to it if you get stuck you can always pm me and il try talk you through it if anything doesnt make sence

yeah i know i shouldnt undercharge it was a spur of the moment job, he asked me what i charge for a single portrait.. its never actually come up before - a single portrait for a CV! most people just go to a booth!! .... now i charge anything between £40 and £300 depending on situation so as this was going to be a very simple 20 min job i said £40 ... he said thats a bit expensive il ring around some other people ... i need the money so i said well look i can squeeze you in this lunch time and we can call it £30! he agreed - it took 20mins. £30 for 20 mins work aint bad in real terms really, i just felt id sold my self a bit short! anyway its done now and it bought me a few beers this evening so i guess i cant complain to much!

DaveK
27-07-2009, 22:35
Hi again Hamish,
Thanks for the offer of PM help - much appreciated.
Please ignore my comments on how you run your business, or at least don't take them seriously. Ive been a 'wage slave' all my working life - had one chance to get myself set up in my own business (foundry) - a business contact with a foundry to service his own machine shop found the business of running both was getting a bit much and offered me his foundry, with its tied market but opportunity to sell elswhere, at very favourable terms (we got on very well), but I chickened out and continued 'wage slavery' - often wonder what might have happened but don't waste time regretting it - life's too short. So, ...... don't take any advice from me on how to run any business too seriously - £30 is better than nothing, which is probably what you would have earned if you weren't doing his portrait. :lol:
Thanks again and take care.
Cheers,

The Vinyl Adventure
27-07-2009, 22:46
if there is one thing i have learnt in the short time i have been running my business's its listen to every bit of advice anyone is willing to waste there time giving me, take it on board filter out the crap and act on what fits in with how i feel about things ... if that makes sence?? its amazing the little nuggets of gold that can be extrapolated from convosations with people in the pub... even the most pissed of people have given me fantastic insights in to marketing for eg! so yeah dont worry advice is something i am always truely pleased to recive whomever it might come from! and i do def agree with you, i shouldnt undercharge and i do feel a bit funny if i do incase they pass on cheap price info to other people if that makes sence... but like you say i wouldnt have had that £30 if i hadnt agreed to do it and in this day and age £30 is £30 is ten beers or the vat on a caiman ....

let me know how you get on with your new kit setup if you get to the stage where you are looking at a sub may be able to help with that too!