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StanleyB
25-07-2009, 20:37
I have noticed that none of the early Caiman owners have even posted on AoS in the last day or so... You think there could be a reason for that:scratch:?

STan

DaveK
25-07-2009, 20:43
Hi Stan,
What are you suggesting that they might be doing that could possibly be more important than posting on AoS?? :lolsign:
Cheers,

StanleyB
25-07-2009, 20:58
Hi Stan,
What are you suggesting that they might be doing that could possibly be more important than posting on AoS?? :lolsign:
Cheers,
Just curious if there is a connection.

Stan

DaveK
25-07-2009, 21:04
Just curious if there is a connection.

Stan

Hi Stan,
I was trying to be funny - hope I didn't fail too badly - I fully realise the connection you were trying to make ;) .
Cheers,

Covenant
25-07-2009, 21:17
There is one word thats explains why they haven't posted-engrossed.

The Vinyl Adventure
26-07-2009, 09:29
i can think of other words that might describe what they might be doing ... i have noticed some people on here take they hifi VERY seriously ...... il leave that comment to interpretation ;)

Gazjam
26-07-2009, 12:37
steady....

The Vinyl Adventure
26-07-2009, 13:16
heh

i do of course have my name on a caiman ..... and im selling some bonds to buy one..... so i cant really talk!!

lovejoy
27-07-2009, 11:01
Well, my WM8716 chips turned up from Farnell this morning so I set about straight away modding my 7520.

Now I have a 7520 using a Wolfson WM8716 DAC chip 4562 op amps in both sockets and the MLC5/6 mod. So I guess pretty close to a Caiman.

I've had a few songs to get an initial impression and now I'm going to leave it run in for a while. I'm not going to spoil anyone's fun by listing what I think are the improvements so far, I'm just going to leave you with two words for now...

HOLY CRAP! (that's in a good way by the way)

apmusson
27-07-2009, 12:31
My Caiman arrived on Friday before lunch (thx Stan). I had a quick listen to it (HD650 headphones) before burn-in or even warm up - I had to go out on Friday night. With the original tc7520, the sound gradually improves as the stan-cap (TM) fills up with charge but the Caiman sounded pretty good right from the off.

I then left it on burn-in (feeding it with random tracks from foobar) overnight and most of Saturday afternoon before listening again. The improvements in tonality and separation are not subtle.

I will reserve my full comments until I have spent some time with the Caiman. My initial reaction however is that the improved Wolfson DAC and stans other mods have made a very worthwhile improvement to an already excellent DAC.

Ade

Simon P
27-07-2009, 17:16
I'd actually just saved up for a 7520, and then I read about the Caiman. I didn't have to think too hard about which to buy ;)

My Caiman turned up this morning - speedy dispatch too! Thanks Stan :)

I don't have a 7510 or 7520 to compare it to I'm afraid. Obviously it needs to be run in, but for what it's worth I plumbed it in and had a listen on my Denon AHD-5000s, and I already know that I won't be sending it back. I'm very impressed so far and I'm intrigued to hear what it will be like once it has run in.

It's now being fed a loop of reasonably diverse (well for me at least) music to run in properly;

Joanna Newsom - Sprout and the Bean
Max Richter - The Blue Notebooks
James Brown - The Payback
Gil Scott Heron - Pieces of a Man
Miles Davis - A Kind of Blue
Dave Brubeck - Time Further Out
The Headhunters - God Made Me Funky
Funkadelic - Maggot Brain
Jimi Hendrix - Crosstown Traffic
Carl Craig - More Songs About Food and Revolutionary Art
Basic Channel - E2E4 Basic Reshape
Kraftwerk - Autobahn
TVO - The Dark is Rising
Ulrich Schnauss - A Strangely Isolated Place
Arovane - Tides
Isan - Recently in the Sahara
Wendy Carlos - A Clockwork Orange
Erik Satie - Gnossienes (6) for piano; 1. Lent
Boards of Canada - In a Beautiful Place Out in the Country

If I play the music on fast forward - will the DAC burn in quicker? :eyebrows:

Simon

roscoeiii
27-07-2009, 18:25
It seems that the fine folks at US Customs are taking the Caiman for a spin. Frustrating to know it is here in Chicago but in customs' hands not mine.

Anxiously awaiting the Caiman, and looking forward to comparing it to my non-oversampling Moodlab Concept DAC.

StanleyB
27-07-2009, 19:01
It seems that the fine folks at US Customs are taking the Caiman for a spin. Frustrating to know it is here in Chicago but in customs' hands not mine.
That's a massive downer. I arranged a special pick up by FEDEX to get it to you over the weekend.

Stan

Labarum
27-07-2009, 19:50
How many Caimans are in the hands of buyers or reviewers?

trailer
28-07-2009, 18:26
Well I went down to one of the Naim Summer Roadshow events this afternoon at Robert Ritchies. Top bloke he is.
Anyway, I had a listen to the new Naim Ovator speakers (circa £6k) fired up with a NAP300 and a NAC252 (£more filthy lucre). The front ends were the new CD2XS with the SPDIF out, an HDX and the soon to be released Naim DAC (£no idea of the filthy lucre involved).
On both the CD2XS and the HDX the DAC improved things no end. It really did sound very good indeed. The spiel mentioned that it has the same DAC chip that both the CDS3 and the CD555 have plus some fancy re-clocking/up-sampling/DSP'ing. I can't remember the exact chips/software involved. It also has the Apple identifier chip included so it will play the digital out from the bottom of your iPhone/iTouch/iPod much like the Wadia iPod dock does. All in all a good day out with some good tunes being played too.
To cut a long story short I was expecting to be disappointed when I got home and fired up my more modest set up. However, I wasn't. Streaming into the Wolfsoned 7520 wasn't a let down. I'm going to take it down to Roberts in September when he gets a demo DAC in for a comparison.

The Vinyl Adventure
28-07-2009, 20:20
i was saying to stan in pm im going to compare mine (when i get it) to the linn ds kit with the guys who sold me all my kit (norman and ian of uhes - one of the other summer sounds hosts in painswick, glos) in the tests i have done the 7520 with 4562's that i have comes closer than antisipated to my majik ds so im really intrigued (also slightly scared) to know how good the caiman is!

StanleyB
28-07-2009, 20:56
I'm going to take it down to Roberts in September when he gets a demo DAC in for a comparison.
If he gets a DAC for demo, maybe you should take a production version of the Caiman instead.

Stan

trailer
28-07-2009, 21:50
If he gets a DAC for demo, maybe you should take a production version of the Caiman instead.

Stan

If anyone is interested in a MOD21'd, LM'd 7510 then I'm up for a Caiman ;)

PS: Maplin PSU included.

NickB
28-07-2009, 22:38
Hi Hamish

How far are you from Painswick then, I bought a rather nice cheap tuner from them and live just down the road in Nailsworth. Good guys and a great place to listen to music.

I also have one of Stan's Caimans but have not had a chance too listen yet!!!!!!!

The Vinyl Adventure
29-07-2009, 01:54
I'm in Worcester, I used to buy hifi from Norman when he was the assistant in audio excelence in town. In fact I got my very first hifi from him 12ish years ago! It's been interesting watching him and ian turn the dream of thier own shop into reality! Did you know them when they were up at the castle in rodborough, it's a great shame that place didn't work out for them, it was stunning!! Not that the new place is at all shoddy to be fair!!! It's always a joy going to visit them! they had a pair of adam tensor betas last time I was there, I understand they are not to everyones taste, but I loved em!
Anyway I have high jacked this thread a bit here sorry all!

Get that caiman out and running! Maybe if your closer you could take it to uhes too! You know how Normans into his linn ds stuff? I'm so intrigued to know what he would make of the caiman, especially at it's price point!
I might take my mini laptop down actually, I'd love to hear the difference between £450 worth of laptop and caiman compared to £10kish worth of linn klimax ds going straight into some massive active Adams! Almost complete oposite ends of the computer based audio Market in terms of price, and although this is based on expectation due to experience of the 7520 - not actually having heard the caiman yet, I would guess not such oposite ends in terms of performance!!!

The Vinyl Adventure
29-07-2009, 02:00
It's just ocured to me I have never done a truely fair comparison between my 7520 and linn majik ds.... I really wish is wasn't 2:54 am and that I didn't live in a teraced house, I have a sudden urge to listen to some music at day-time-while-the-neighbours-are-at-work level!

DaveK
29-07-2009, 07:57
It's just ocured to me I have never done a truely fair comparison between my 7520 and linn majik ds.... I really wish is wasn't 2:54 am and that I didn't live in a teraced house, I have a sudden urge to listen to some music at day-time-while-the-neighbours-are-at-work level!

Don't you ever bloody sleep ???? :lolsign:

The Vinyl Adventure
29-07-2009, 10:54
my missis has been off work for a while and its slowly turning me nocturnal.. she was on the laptop in bed looking at alice in wonderland beads and charms to make a braclet out of... i fugured the best place for me was here :)

HighFidelityGuy
29-07-2009, 11:02
my missis has been off work for a while and its slowly turning me nocturnal.. she was on the laptop in bed looking at alice in wonderland beads and charms to make a braclet out of... i fugured the best place for me was here :)

:lolsign: Sanctuary.

Well my Caiman just got delivered to me at work, I only ordered it yesterday, thanks Stan!!! I can't wait to get it hooked up tonight.

Sorry if this has already been answered elsewhere but I noticed the power adapter that came with my Caiman is different to the one that came with my standard 7520. The old one was a phone charger style design, the new one is an in-line design. Are they the same internally?

StanleyB
29-07-2009, 11:12
I noticed the power adapter that came with my Caiman is different to the one that came with my standard 7520. The old one was a phone charger style design, the new one is an in-line design. Are they the same internally?
They both take AC and convert it to 12 Volts DC.

Stan

HighFidelityGuy
29-07-2009, 11:54
They both take AC and convert it to 12 Volts DC.

Stan

Thanks Stan.
I just thought I better double check as I'm planning on using the adapter that came with my 7520 as it's already well run in. It probably won't make much difference but it can't hurt I guess.

roscoeiii
29-07-2009, 14:21
I quite prefer the style of PSU that shipped with the Caiman, since it it easier to plug into my power conditioner than a wall wart.

My only question so far is whether there is some way to keep the Caiman from changing its input automatically to USB after it is powered off. My power is super crappy, and I want to keep all audio equipment plugged into it to protect them, and I turn off the conditioner whenever the stereo is not in use. Whenever I turn the power conditioner back on, the input changes to USB, an input I will not be using.

Fi-Wi
29-07-2009, 14:51
Argh, TNT came to deliver my Caiman just when I was out. Murphy's still alive and kicking!

Tomorrow after 1PM I can pick it up at the post office. :steam:

Labarum
30-07-2009, 11:38
Ordered yesterday. Arrived today! (Can't complain at that, Stan.)

Installed cold. First impressions compared to 7510 6/4?

Firmer bass. Cleaner mid-band. Too early to say any more.

Played:

Bach's Goldberg Variations - an extremely clear recording by Dinnerstein - 16/44.1 FLAC

and

Palestrina's Missa Papae Marcelli - The Tallis Scholars - a Gimimell Studio Master download at 24/96 FLAC - Squeezecentre down samples to 24/48 before streaming to Squeezebox.

(In my opinion these Studio Master Gimmel downloads are extremely good, but I have ripped CDs that are as good.)

HiBit Internet Radio sounds good too.

RCA Phono link between Squeezebox and DAC. Variable out into Quad 405 Power Amp.

Labarum
30-07-2009, 12:39
OOO

Playing now:

AVRO Klassiek Beste Netherlands MP3 256KB/s

Hector Berlioz - Berliner Philharmoniker, James Levine - Symphonie fantastique op.14 (DG 431624-2)

URL: http://opml.radiotime.com/Tune.ashx?id=s55517&Formats=mp3,wma,real&username=sampletime&PartnerId=16

I have a very wide open window onto this music.

Impressive sound stage.

Very good string tone.

And this is a 256 MP3.

Labarum
30-07-2009, 12:48
Amazing piano tone:

Title: WFMT Chicago 128 AAC+
URL: http://wttw.ic.llnwd.net/stream/wttw_wfmt_livebroadcast

Piano and Tenor - Britten's Folk songs I think.

Well done Stan!

HighFidelityGuy
30-07-2009, 12:57
Unfortunately I only had enough time to plug in my Caiman and play a bit of TV through it. So I can't really comment on the sound other than that the news sounded good. :lol: Nice clear vocals. :)

I'll hopefully be able to run some music through it over the weekend to give me a better idea.

Labarum
31-07-2009, 10:27
24 Hours in.

Just listening to

Sibelius, Violin Concerto Op.47, Symphony Nr.5 Op.82 (1988)
Nigel Kennedy, Simon Rattle

Very nice. Very nice indeed , Stan.

Great strings. Even pizzicato. (Must listen to some guitar and lute.)

And it's silly things, like when during a quiet section the tympani sound from the back of the orchestra. Very convincing. I expect that is down to clarity and good, controlled bass. You do get quite a thump with (even) a softly played tymp, but the drumskin is probably producing some very complex sounds.

As I said yesterday the piano sound is excellent.

I plugged in my very ordinary Sennheiser Headphones HD435 (ten or more years old). They seem to sound better with the Caiman over the 7510.

Still exploring.

(There is a downside, of course, when you can hear a pianist shuffling on the stool.)

Labarum
31-07-2009, 11:07
MMM

Didn't listen to the lute.

Got sidetracked:

D:\FLAC\Jeno Jando\Beethoven Piano Sonatas, Vol. 4\06 - Sonata No.32 In C Minor, Op. 111 - Maestoso - Allegro.flac

D:\FLAC\Jeno Jando\Beethoven Piano Sonatas, Vol. 4\07 - Sonata No.32 In C Minor, Op. 111 - Arietta, Adagio Molto.flac

I am very impressed with the the range of articulation. The high register metallic sound is there, and the full bodied bass of a concert grand piano.

Sitting on the edge of my seat I was.

Of course I have large articulate speakers and the refurbished Quad 405-2 is nearly as good as a 909 - well over 100w per channel of sophisticated grunt; but the finesse has to be there in the early replay chain - and it was.

Well, I must shut up (for now) and let others have their say.

lovejoy
31-07-2009, 11:52
Thanks Brian,
Here's my 2p worth as a comparison between the Caiman and the 4562 equipped 7520, which makes it a pretty level playing field.

The first thing that hits you is the bass, quite literally. The 7520 with the 4562 was accused of having slightly monotonic bass, and even though the MLC5/6 cap mods went some way to addressing this, this is in a different league. Not only has the tunefulness been returned, it goes lower, deeper, hits harder, is tighter, more focussed and more controlled. It's thunderous in fact, but it never loses it's grip. What is odd is that even though there is *more* bass, it has addressed much of the boomyness in my listening room. I guess that is a testament to just how tight and controlled it is.

As a result, timing has improved massively. I've been doing a lot of air drumming lately ;-). It draws you right into the recording and doesn't let go. It's sense of rhythm and groove is quite spectacular. I'd get up and dance if I was so inclined.

Soundstage has grown in all directions, especially front to back. There's a real holographic projection of the image, both between, behind and to the sides of the speakers. Close your eyes and listen. It feels like being in a much bigger room. Listening to classical music is as if I can not only tell the left to right position of any musician, I can pick out which row they're in. I think Brian said that there is a much bigger window into the recording and I couldn't agree more. There are the most minute details coming through now that were blurred previously, but yes, the downside is that the guy in the audience with a bit of a sniff has now become irritating ;).

I think the biggest difference to my ears has been the tonality and decay in notes from any instrument. This is a MASSIVE improvement and is the thing that is currently getting me going through loads of different music, discovering sounds for the first time. Notes hang in the air in front of you and decay away so realistically, you can't help but give your full undivided attention. From the wood in an acoustic guitar to the skin of a drum, it's all very tangible and thoroughly addictive to listen to.

Vocals have taken on more presence and richness and are projected right out into the room. It's like you've moved your chair a few rows closer to the stage.

Then there's the treble: Much sweeter and more natural. I think digital systems have always had a problem with cymbals, always splashy and harsh. Here we have something that sounds more like a good turntable.

In summary, I'd say that the move from the original 7510/7520 DAC chip to the Wolfson is a bigger step than upgrading your op-amps from the stock ones to something like a 4562 or THS4032, but with the Caiman you get both upgrades from the off. If you really want to bring big improvements to your 7510/20 and you can de-solder and re-solder a surface mount DAC chip (or know someone who can) then DO IT! Seriously, just DO IT! You will not be disappointed. Otherwise, just order a Caiman ;).

I remember someone on various fora (who shall remain nameless but has been now mostly banned) banging on about modern DAC chips all sounding the same and it's the implementation of the rest of the circuit that will make a difference.. Well, I think that theory has been well and truly debunked.

Covenant
31-07-2009, 12:28
Music to my ears there Rich.
My 7520 is currently getting the Wolfson dac upgrade so your comments on the bass is exactly what I was hoping for. Mine is fitted with the THS4032 so when I get it back I can decide whether or not to install the 4562 and do the MCL5/6 mod.

HighFidelityGuy
31-07-2009, 12:38
Thanks Brian and Rich for your excellent descriptions. I now can't wait to have a propper listen to my Caiman over the weekend. I had to go out last night so I left the Caiman sweating over a complex playlist of music and burn-in tracks. Hopefully that will have run it in a reasonable amount.

If I can hear the same improvements over the standard 7520 as you I'll be a very happy chap as they are the areas I feel my system needs to be improved in.

I'm giddy with excitement. :lolsign:

Labarum
31-07-2009, 14:54
The first thing that hits you is the bass, quite literally.

This was the first improvement I noticed. It is a firm and very controlled bass. Clearly the amp and speakers need to be capable.



Soundstage has grown in all directions, especially front to back.

I spoke of "a very wide open window onto this music." The words in my mind were "a deeper window", but I changed that because I thought it might imply "tunnel vision". Far from it, what I had in mind falling into a deep hole to be engulfed by the music. Oh dear: I am always very wary of such subjective use of language.

I certainly agreed about the depth of the sound stage. In the Piano Concerto the piano was very far forward and the tympani (at the back of the orchestra) was in my neighbours garden! The width of the sound stage I thought a little better, but was impressive on my speakers before. Is it phase integrity that makes for a good soundstage?


I think the biggest difference to my ears has been the tonality and decay in notes from any instrument.

This is improved over the 7510, but was very good before. I had previously commented to Stan that it was one of my first observations on hearing the 7510. At the end of some piano pieces the pianist holds the dampers off and lets the vibration of the strings decay to nothing before closing the dampers. You get some sympathetic vibration from the other strings where the mathematics is right, so it is a complex effect. Listening to such dying sounds as they sink through the noise floor can be very impressive. It was with the 7510 - I must do some more listening with the Caiman.


Vocals have taken on more presence and richness and are projected right out into the room. It's like you've moved your chair a few rows closer to the stage.

Not listened to too much choral music - just a bit of Palestrina and Purcell - tracks I know to be very clear. Better? Maybe, but not such a striking improvement as the bass and the depth of the sound stage.

I heard a few minutes of Britten's Folk songs - tenor and piano. Sounded very good. Must listen to some higher voices - both soprano and treble. If a Counter Tenor sets my teeth on edge I will mark the DAC down!


Then there's the treble: Much sweeter and more natural.


Agreed. As witnessed by the quality of bowed strings and the right hand in the piano. If a Counter Tenor sets my teeth on edge I will mark the DAC down!

Strengths so far:

1. Impressive sound stage.
2. Clear mid band.
3. Sweet treble.
4. Deep, firm, rich and controlled bass.

Rich (Lovejoy):

What are you listening to? What kind of music?
What are you listening on? What amplification and speakers?

leo
31-07-2009, 15:02
The bass and decay in notes is the first thing I noticed after fitting the WM8716, LM4562HA (with removal of ceramic caps) goes well and I never felt the need to change it
LM4562 probably does match better with the 8716 than 1716

High frequencies are a lot more polished , shame the Caiman couldn't have gone for review with the 7520

leo
31-07-2009, 15:04
Nice write ups though guys:smoking:

lovejoy
31-07-2009, 15:07
Rich (Lovejoy):

What are you listening to? What kind of music?
What are you listening on? What amplification and speakers?

I'm listening to all sorts, last night for example was a bit of a 'rock out' night with some Rage Against the Machine, Ministry, Sepultura, which later moved into the more folksy moods of Richard Thompson and Frederick Stanley Star. Some Neil Young along the way and a bit of Electronica - Goldfrapp, Tunng, Massive Attack.

Today has been Radiohead, Fiona Apple, Joanna Newsom and lots of Radio Paradise whilst I'm working just to get the Caiman running in nicely.

What am I listening through? Well, my Macbook Pro is connected to the Caiman, and then normally that would be going through my Musical Fidelity A3.2 pre-power combo and into a pair of Mark I Shahinian Arcs, but today I am warming up an Aiwa 8700 amp which is crackling a little in one channel at the moment but other than that is sounding quite lovely.

Labarum
31-07-2009, 15:18
I'm listening to all sorts, last night for example was a bit of a 'rock out' night with some Rage Against the Machine, Ministry, Sepultura, which later moved into the more folksy moods . . .

I haven't a clue about any of that stuff, and would probably run a mile rather than listen to it!

But it is fascinating to note we have made almost identical observations while listening to very different music.

StanleyB
31-07-2009, 15:38
I am warming up an Aiwa 8700 amp which is crackling a little in one channel at the moment
A bit of contact spray like THIS (http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=4153).

Nice amp by the way:smoking:. An overlooked gem from the Ol' Skool. I rate it above the TRIO KA-9100, Pioneer SA-9800, and Yamaha CA-1010, which are all from the same era of collectible Japanese vintage integrated amps.

Stan

Labarum
31-07-2009, 15:41
Are you prepared to tell us how many Caimans are out there, Stan?

StanleyB
31-07-2009, 15:58
Are you prepared to tell us how many Caimans are out there, Stan?
Just a few. It's a one-off show piece, outside the price range I feel comfy in. I don't expect a rush for the Caiman, since not everyone needs the majority of its features. I reckon it will mainly attract those who have a very revealing system.

Stan

Labarum
31-07-2009, 16:05
Lack of two optical inputs might be an issue for me, and I have yet to explore that USB input. Want to try it with Foobar in WASAPI mode.

http://community.whathifi.com/forums/t/130557.aspx

If that's as good as S/PDIF it might change the way I listen, but I do like my Squeezebox.

Step at a time.

Gazjam
31-07-2009, 16:24
Mine on the way as I type!
Post impressions later.

It's a home brew job, 4562 m5/6 mod, with wolsen dac and maplin psu/meaty power lead at 12v.

Will listen to varied range of stuff.

Gazjam
31-07-2009, 16:25
Mine on the way as I type!
Post impressions later.

It's a home brew job, 4562 m5/6 mod, with wolsen dac and maplin psu/meaty power lead at 12v.

Will listen to varied range of stuff.

Spur07
31-07-2009, 20:51
damn,

everyone jumping onboard and I'm so tempted!!

Keep the review coming lads

Gazjam
02-08-2009, 09:29
Recieved mine hand delivered Friday night from Tirna Elelctronics (the guys who modded the 4032 Op Amp?)
They are less than an hour from where I live, so wanted to make sure the upgrades went ok and get my opinion of the sound.
*Talk about great service!*

We sat for an hour or so comparing the Squeezebox Dac to the Wolfsen'd 7520, talking about the improvements over the stock 7520, squeezebox's and audio in general.
Good guys, good people. Very happy to help, but what struck me most was the genuine feeling of wanting to do a good job and make sure I was happy with their work.
Highly recommended for the other solder-phobics like myself wanting to upgrade their 7520's.

Anyways, the improvements over the stock 7520.

I've not done any serious listening as I'm busy with Project stuff and I'm running it in over the weekend, but even from cold its very apparent this is something else entirely from the stock 7520.
It just sounds...."more". Clearer, deeper bass, more realism, its all there.
It makes the Squeezebox Dac sound flat and like a toy, the Caiman sounds more high end, with more of everything you could think of.

What struck me in particular was the bass depth and timing. Music just hung together and "boogied" better than before. I had felt the 4562 with the stock Dac chip was perhaps a wee bit less full in the bass than I would have liked, but the timing and sense of "being there" made up for it.
The bass is back big time, its deeper and much tighter. It helps the music motor along and its easier to get the "point" of whatever music your listening to.

Thats my initial findings from sitting with the Tirna guys, and an hour or so last night.

More to follow after a few days of burning in.


*EDIT*
Bloody Sods law!
I get my Dac upgraded and my Amp decide's to throw a hissy fit!
The right channel is cutting out every now and again and I have to turn the volume up for it to kick in again.
Sounds like a classic dry joint, but the timing of it is pure pish!*



*(Pure Pish = Quite annoying: Another one of those Scottish phrases I use from time to time..... like bawbag)

Getgaff
02-08-2009, 15:29
Great post - look forward to hearing more.

Was it expensive having Tirna mod your 7520? The Wolfsen DAC can be purchased for less than £4 + delivery from Farnell...

http://uk.farnell.com/wolfson-microelectronics/wm8716seds/24bit-dac-192khz-stereo-8716/dp/1354193

... but swapping out the DAC chip is way beyond my capabilities.

Gazjam
02-08-2009, 20:36
Hi Getgaff,
no not expensive at all, the cost was £30 including postage and packaging.

Great service.

StanleyB
03-08-2009, 08:46
If you include the postage to send the DAC to them, that works out at about £40, which is also the price difference between the TC-7520 and the Caiman, with the LM4562NA thrown in.

Gazjam
03-08-2009, 09:00
Your spot on Stan, I forgot about the cost of posting it down there.
£40 all in.

Labarum
03-08-2009, 09:01
Stan is right. Think hard. Standacs sell very well on ebay, so a Caiman could be by far and away the best deal.

I might eBay my 7510 and buy another Caiman - I need one in my flat in Southampton and one in the bungalow in Nicosia.

Covenant
03-08-2009, 09:10
Stan, I think you said that the Caiman (and Wolfson 7520) would only show their full potential with an uprated power supply you were developing.
Is there any more news about this? If you could say when it will be available and details of the differences it would be appreciated.

Gazjam
03-08-2009, 09:16
I'd be interested in this too Stan, I'm currently using the Maplin one, but I know its not as good as the Caiman specific one.

StanleyB
03-08-2009, 09:57
Stan, I think you said that the Caiman (and Wolfson 7520) would only show their full potential with an uprated power supply you were developing.
Is there any more news about this? If you could say when it will be available and details of the differences it would be appreciated.
I'll only know for sure when it will be available after I have a production sample in my hand:).

Stan

twelvebears
03-08-2009, 10:08
Chaps.

I've only had my 7520 since mid-May, I'm currently running the 4032 opamp upgrade and am very pleased with the sound but I would defo have gone for the Caimen if it had been around at the time.

Funds are tight so with eBay/Paypal fees and inevitable s/h losses, upgrading mine is still the cheaper option.

The question is, and Stan has already told me his preference (thanks Stan), is whether to stick with the 4032 opamps currently fitted and just swap the DAC chip for the Wolfson, or also get the LM4562HA with the MLC5/6 mod done at the same time?

Cost differences between the two will be minimal, so it just down to sound/performance.

If the opamp choice is mostly due to bass weight, I may do best to stick with the 4032s as my system isn't short of grunt as it is....

Views please gents?

Covenant
03-08-2009, 10:51
Hi Steve,
I have just received my 'Wolfsoned' 7520 from Tirna this morning and I have the 4032 fitted in the line out with the 4562 in the variable output.
I dont think I should put any comments down until its bedded in for a few days so bear with me Twelvebears :lol:
A great service from Tirna by the way so a big thank you to Jimmy and Alan.
I am sure I will use them again soon.

Fi-Wi
03-08-2009, 11:01
Still braking in my Caiman (since 5 days) but I really can appreciate the mids en bass which already were apparent 'out of the box'. In my ears there are no frequenties that dominate or that are audibly absent.

I love the headphone amp as well since I have 2 little kids crawling around that do make a lot of noise. Nothing fancy, but my Sennheiser HD-570 work great with the amp.

No flaws yet? Well, just minor ones. The on/off button on my unit does not always work. Clicking it on or off produces the clicking sound but the Caiman doesn't alway obey. I guess it is still a wild animal that needs to be tamed if it ever will. My 7510 doesn't have this problem.

I like the bigger size of the volume knob but I prefer the better resitance the knop of the 7510 offers. I think it revolves too easy/light which gives it a cheap/plastic feeling. But then, it's not that I am switching the headphone volume all day long.

So far my first impressions.

I am looking forward to the improved psu as well!

twelvebears
03-08-2009, 11:45
Hi Steve,
I have just received my 'Wolfsoned' 7520 from Tirna this morning and I have the 4032 fitted in the line out with the 4562 in the variable output.
I dont think I should put any comments down until its bedded in for a few days so bear with me Twelvebears :lol:
A great service from Tirna by the way so a big thank you to Jimmy and Alan.
I am sure I will use them again soon.

Cheers Jerry, in no big rush (need to concentrate on my impending house move), but I would appreciate your views.

MartinT
03-08-2009, 12:58
I've just ordered a Caiman today and will post my thoughts when I've got it up and running and with at least 24 hours' burn-in.

Looking forward to trying some Blu-rays as well as CD and streamed hi-res music.

trailer
03-08-2009, 16:02
I've just ordered a Caiman today and will post my thoughts when I've got it up and running and with at least 24 hours' burn-in.

Looking forward to trying some Blu-rays as well as CD and streamed hi-res music.

Remember to output the blu-rays in stereo on the digital out. ;)

MartinT
03-08-2009, 17:39
Remember to output the blu-rays in stereo on the digital out. ;)

Oh yes, it's already set up that way (I'm currently using an old Assemblage DAC3.0, good in its day but a little old now).

Dougr33
03-08-2009, 17:51
Hi Steve,
I have just received my 'Wolfsoned' 7520 from Tirna this morning and I have the 4032 fitted in the line out with the 4562 in the variable output....

Hi Jerry.. actually, the line out and variable out are the same (chip over the hp jack; the op amp over the volume control is for the HPA.

Covenant
03-08-2009, 17:59
I stand corrected Doug.

Alex_UK
04-08-2009, 11:02
Well my Caiman arrived about 2 hours ago (thanks Stan for a great service) and I've hooked it up temporarily to the laptop (USB) and the Roku Soundbridge (Profigold coax) and even though it is running in and connected with a very dodgy interconnect (Silver High Breed will be the solution when I install it properly) I can already tell what a great purchase I have made. The Soundbridge no longer sounds compressed, I've only tried Spotify from the laptop so far (not premium, so 160kbps?) but that sounded promising too - too early though to be too analytical, until properly installed and run in (plus my new Creek amp should be ready tomorrow, which will change everything again anyway) but so far it is looking very promising indeed. And I love the blue LEDS...!

HighFidelityGuy
04-08-2009, 13:57
I finally managed to get a reasonably good listen to my Caiman over the weekend.
I think it still needs more running it yet but I've now got a better idea of what the differences are in the sound between my 7520 and the Caiman. For clarification my 7520 has the metal can version of the opamps used in the Caimen and has the MLC5/6 caps removed. So the main difference between the two is the DAC chip.

The Caiman is definitely extracting more detail from the recordings. I've never heard so much detail in the treble and mid-range. The soundstage is also more three dimensional and airy and more subtle underlying details are now audible. There seems to be better separation and clarity as well which makes everything sound more lively and enjoyable.

I've also noticed that the frequency response of my system now seems to be flatter.
I use a very basic pink noise generator and RTA to help me to tweak the EQ on my PC soundcard to get a flat frequency response. I used to have to cut a lot of bass frequencies and boost high frequencies but I noticed that using these same setting on the Caimen sounded too harsh in the treble and weak in the bass. So I've now been able back off the amount of EQ I use which is a big bonus. This came as a bit of a surprise as I doubt the standard 7520 has a lumpy frequency response. So it must just be something to do with the way the Caiman works with the rest of my system and how that interacts with my room. :scratch:
Whatever the reason it works for me. :cool:

Thanks Mr Beresford for making a fantastic piece of kit!!

Simon P
04-08-2009, 18:36
I've had my Caiman for over a week now, and it has been playing pretty much constantly to run in.

I'm using it purely to drive my Denon AHD-5000 headphones to play FLAC files from my laptop, and I have to say I'm extremely pleased with it.

In my rather limited vocabulary, I'd describe the Caiman as having a very enjoyable and detailed sound. It doesn't seem to have a preference for any particular type of music, as I've thrown a fair variety at it. It pulls a lot of detail out of the mix, but not in a distracting way. The real benefit for me is that it has good timing and plays basslines _properly_ - this is key to a lot of the music that I'm more biased towards playing.

I don't have any of the older Beresfords to compare it with, but from the perspective of using it as a DAC and headphone amp it's great. I think my Little Dot Microtube headphone amp has just become superfluous and may end up on eBay soon ;)

In summary - I'm very impressed with the Caiman.

Simon

StanleyB
04-08-2009, 20:58
I'm using it purely to drive my Denon AHD-5000 headphones to play FLAC files from my laptop, and I have to say I'm extremely pleased with it.
Try some reggae and feel the Denon vibrate even when you can't hear any bass. The AHD-5000 goes down to 5Hz, and I managed to test the Caiman all the way down to 10Hz at 0dB.

Stan

MartinT
05-08-2009, 07:44
I collected my Caiman this morning (many thanks, Stan). I'm running it in the office just to put some hours on it before I connect it to the Hi-Fi system tonight. First impressions are very good: nicely finished unit, quality controls and sockets and seamless operation via the USB interface from my XP netbook. Sound quality through my Sony in-ear phones is very favourable with good soundstage, excellent detail and a very nice immersive feel.

I shall write more when I test it tonight.

jandl100
05-08-2009, 08:04
I've had my Caiman now for getting on for a week.

As I always find with Stan's DACs (Yes, I've had a few!) they sound awful when first plugged in. I'm used to this now and don't even try to listen for a few hours. But imo 5 or 6 hours takes you 90% of the way thru the break-in process.

I'd not disagree with any of the positive comments already posted, but would just add some additional comments of my own ....

1) it's Stan's best yet, and I say that as a long-standing Fanboy of his DACs.

2) I was happy with the 7520, but the Caiman really does go to another league with its sense of image solidity, naturally presented tonally-correct detail, and its relaxed, unhyped but awesomely wide dynamics.

Oh, and I prefer it with my Yamaha DVD player as a CD source rather than my usual Audio Synthesis CDT. The latter comes across as a bit lightweight in comparison, it always was a detail-oriented player and that seems to be taken a bit too far with the Caiman.

Nice one Stan. :)

marscay
05-08-2009, 09:38
Just received my Caiman this morning, thanks for the speedy service as usual Stan.

First impressions are hard for me because i am also integrating a new processor and amplifier which is vastly better than my predecessors and using sub optimal IC's until i put everything back into place but there's definitely more slam in the bass, not boomy but i can really feel it and it's nice. Just like the 7520 brought more energy and mid range versus the 7510 i feel this Caiman is doing the same to the 7520.

A little sibilance for me right now but that should settle a bit once burned in and i probably need another EQ change which also happened with the 7520/TH4032 combo.

Labarum
05-08-2009, 15:16
A question for a Mac user:

When using the Caiman, has anyone compared the USB and the Optical link?

lovejoy
05-08-2009, 17:34
A question for a Mac user:

When using the Caiman, has anyone compared the USB and the Optical link?

Yes indeed. USB is the choice for me for two reasons on a Mac:

1. I prefer the sound. There's not a lot in it, but I find it a bit more natural and airy.
2. I don't like the mini TOSLINK connector on the Mac. If you're using a good quality optical cable (like Stan's for instance) which requires an adaptor, the heavy cable puts quite a lot of strain on the socket, and as this socket is soldered directly to the motherboard, sooner or later it'll work loose and you'll need it repaired.

The drawback of course is that USB is no good for anything higher than 48KHz/24-bit. The only stuff I've downloaded at any higher quality than that is the B&W music club stuff, which, to say the least, is not to my taste.

Labarum
05-08-2009, 17:39
Thanks Rich.

And to advance the question.

Has anyone using a Windows PC with S/PDIF (coax or optical) made a comparison with the USB connection.

Labarum
05-08-2009, 18:31
The drawback of course is that USB is no good for anything higher than 48KHz/24-bit.

That is not true.

See this (very long) thread

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/24192-USB-20-beer-budget-EMU-0404-mini-review

This box will go higher, and very cheaply.

The problem is, I believe, that many PC manufactures do not implement USB 2 properly.

MartinT
05-08-2009, 18:54
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8064/8223576394_59011027a9_b.jpg

I've now installed the Caiman in my 'big rig', being used with Sky HD, D-Link DSM-520 media streamer and Sony BDP-S300 Blu-ray player through to the Pass Labs preamp.

The Caiman is at the same time subtle and immediately obvious in its capabilities compared with my old Assemblage DAC3.0. Let me explain: it throws a wide and deep soundstage, entirely natural and populated with such fine detail as to make for a very realistic sound picture, drawing you in to the presentation. There is nothing obvious about the frequency extremes, except for the fact that media with real bass content starts to move air in an alarming manner. Watching hi-res content from Blu-ray, I begin to become aware of the sheer amount of micro-detail and micro-dynamics in the presentation. This is something I've only heard from SACD and DVD-A material. Again, it's subtle but beautifully presented, the last thing from in-your-face equipment.

Playing a music CD using the Blu-ray player as transport, the combination seriously kicks at the heels of my Ayre disc player, very high praise indeed.

The Caiman represents superb value for money. Forgetting the price and using a decent transport, it competes honourably with £5k of high end SACD player. Fabulous!

lovejoy
05-08-2009, 19:11
That is not true.

See this (very long) thread

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/24192-USB-20-beer-budget-EMU-0404-mini-review

This box will go higher, and very cheaply.

The problem is, I believe, that many PC manufactures do not implement USB 2 properly.

Yes, this is interesting. Although I was referring to the Caiman which won't go any higher.

therockst4r
05-08-2009, 19:12
Martin, have you tried using your Caiman as a preamp? I am wondering how it compares to your Pass Labs Preamp.

Covenant
05-08-2009, 19:40
Cheers Jerry, in no big rush (need to concentrate on my impending house move), but I would appreciate your views.

Well the Wolfon 7520 has been playing for a few days and has improved a lot during that period. Very important to me and mentioned by others is its vice like grip on the bass so that problems I had attributed to room proportions and use of floorstanders in a small room have evaporated. Soundstage, clarity, detail etc have improved. In a word the sound is now assured.
The 4032 op-amp may play a part in this but I am very termpted to try other op-amps to get a little more decay to the notes hopefully without inducing that one note bass that I have striven to remove. I guess what I am after is just a little more warmth. Initially I think I will try putting back the 4562 and look to doing the MCL5/6 in a way that I can solder the caps back if required. Then maybe try a metal cap jobby. All good cheap fun.
Sorry this isn't a great help Steve but as usual equipment room and general set-up will make a big difference. I could easily live with the Wolfson 7520/4032 but that ol niggly 'what if' keeps popping into my mind.

StanleyB
05-08-2009, 19:40
http://www.mtc.nildram.co.uk/images/Caiman.jpg
The sad fact is that the THOR switch box with the LCD display was also designed by me. Note the almost identical size and styling;).
However, I never got to reap the rewards and expand that range. I got made redundant from that company, and that is how I ended up setting up my own business. Due to legal issues I can't use the THOR LCD text display and the underlying technology to adjust the displayed text. But it doesn't stop me from getting someone else to write their own set of code for me:eyebrows:. Maybe one day...

STan

MartinT
05-08-2009, 20:09
Martin, have you tried using your Caiman as a preamp? I am wondering how it compares to your Pass Labs Preamp.

It wouldn't work out as the rest of my system is fully balanced and I need analogue inputs for my SL-1210 and Ayre players. The pass drives my Chord in balanced mode and I discovered some years ago that the Chord sounds much better driven this way.

therockst4r
05-08-2009, 20:13
Martin, ok I understand. I was just wondering if I should replace my nice integrated amp with a better power amp and a Caiman acting as a preamp.

MartinT
05-08-2009, 20:14
The sad fact is that the THOR switch box with the LCD display was also designed by me. Note the almost identical size and styling;)

Wow - congrats on another superb and functionally focused design. I love that Thor box as it was the exact solution I needed for a Sony Bravia with only one HDMI input. I used to switch digital sound with it too but have run them all into the Caiman now to keep to single runs.

By the way, Stan, if you ever design a 'Super Caiman' with balanced outputs, I'll be the first in the queue.

therockst4r
05-08-2009, 20:17
Wow - congrats on another superb and functionally focused design. I love that Thor box as it was the exact solution I needed for a Sony Bravia with only one HDMI input. I used to switch digital sound with it too but have run them all into the Caiman now to keep to single runs.

By the way, Stan, if you ever design a 'Super Caiman' with balanced outputs, I'll be the first in the queue.
Are there any DACs on the market with balanced outputs? I have never seen one.

Labarum
05-08-2009, 20:27
Martin, ok I understand. I was just wondering if I should replace my nice integrated amp with a better power amp and a Caiman acting as a preamp.

I drive my Quad power amp directly from the Standac.

Works well. You have no analogue input option, of course.

When I had the Quad 405 refurbished I had the input sensitivity adjusted. I can use the fixed output of the Standac and rely on the 24bit digital volume control in the Squeezebox. Provided the volume control is 85% or higher, with the 7510 the fixed output is a little clearer. I have not made the comaprison with the Caiman, which claims cleaner analogue circuits.

I don't do this routinely because the Virgin Cable box does not have it's own volume control.

MartinT
05-08-2009, 20:29
Are there any DACs on the market with balanced outputs? I have never seen one.

My six year old Assemblage DAC3.0 has balanced outputs.

therockst4r
05-08-2009, 21:31
@Martin: I just wasn't aware that this was an offered feature.

@Labarum: So do you think that the Caiman is comparable to a budget preamp, or would there be a big improvement if I use a dedicate preamp?

Labarum
06-08-2009, 05:05
@Labarum: So do you think that the Caiman is comparable to a budget preamp, or would there be a big improvement if I use a dedicate preamp?

By rights the Caiman driving a power amp ought to offer the cleaner sound because there are less components in the analogue chain, but the precise input/output impedance characteristics can sometimes mean the sound is better with a pre-amp.

I can only share my experience with the Beresford 7510. I have not repeated the experiment with the Caiman, which is reputed to have a better analogue output section.

Cleanest option:

Squeezebox > Standac (fixed out)> Quad 405-2 > Speakers

Relies on 24 bit digital remote volume control in Squeezbox.
Input/output sensitivity need to be matched so as to run at about 90% volume or else the digital volume control may degrade the sound. If the Standac had overdriven the power amp I could have inserted high quality in-line attenuators to the same effect.

I do not use this option because I also need a feed from a Virgin Cable TV box, which has no volume control. You would need to be very sure of your hardware and software to omit an analogue volume control - one digital crack could blow your tweeters.

My Chosen option:

Squeezebox and Virgin Box > Standac (variable out) > Quad 405-2 > Speakers

Very marginally less clarity on my most revealing recordings. Caiman may have closed the gap. Uses manual volume control on Standac about which my daughter complains bitterly when she is watching TV!

Least clear option.

Ssqueezebox and Virgin Box > Standac (fixed output) > Quad 77 Integrated Amp > Speakers

This option gives a remote analogue volume control and the ability to play analogue sources, but lacks the clarity and drive of the other options. The power amplifier in the Quad 77 Integrated amp is quite a few years younger than the 405-2, but that has been very recently upgraded and has all new capacitors and central op-amp. The 405-2 is the better, more powerful, amp and that shows. The 77 Integrated is renowned for a smooth laid back presentation, and that it delivers, but the power amp lacks the clout of the 405, and the pre-amp introduces its losses.

I have once driven the 405-2 from the Pre-out on the 77 integrated amp. The sheer power 405-2 shows, but so does the marginal clouding of the pre-amp.

Conclusion

All these options achieve very acceptable standards and I will happily listen to any. They trade clarity against convenience. You can only make your own judgements.

marscay
06-08-2009, 12:52
Thanks Rich.

And to advance the question.

Has anyone using a Windows PC with S/PDIF (coax or optical) made a comparison with the USB connection.

I had a quick play around yesterday comparing USB to coaxial from the PC into the Caiman which feeds my AV9 Processor.

My initial feelings are that coaxial provides a smoother and less sibilant sound than the USB but i need more time for a proper comparison, i also have the problem in that the Caiman is probably settling in over the first 10-20hrs and using some new IC's also so the differences could be down to that. I remember comparing USB to coax a little while back with my stock 7520 and finding little to zero difference but that was with an Arcam A90/P85 combo so it was short of quality versus my current AV9/P7.

The more time i get on the Caiman the better it is sounding though, it's really pulling some detail out of some recordings i've never heard before and bass lines that definitely weren't as nearly pronounced :)

therockst4r
06-08-2009, 13:54
Labarum: Thanks for the advice, I think I may consider using it as a preamp, if it's as clear as you say. You have me scared about blowing my tweeters though. How exactly would I prevent this from happening if I use the variable out on the Caiman to my power amp?
Thanks for the help.

Labarum
06-08-2009, 14:20
Labarum: Thanks for the advice, I think I may consider using it as a preamp, if it's as clear as you say. You have me scared about blowing my tweeters though. How exactly would I prevent this from happening if I use the variable out on the Caiman to my power amp?
Thanks for the help.

If you have no analogue volume control in the analogue chain you are effectively working with the volume control at maximum all the time.

That is fine, because you can reduce the volume in the digital domain, but there are two cautions.

1. If you use too much digital attenuation, you start to degrade the bitstream. You might or might not hear the effects of this depending on the resolution of your analogue chain, and the amount of digital attenuation applied. My Squeezebox has a 24 bit volume control and most of the time it is passing 16 bit data - there are noughts and ones to spare. Advice I have seen elsewhere suggests I can run the Squeezebox volume control down to 85% with no problem - in practice I can go much lower, because at low volumes the ear looses acuity anyway - like listening to a band on the other side of the valley! But it is is important to have the output of the DAC well matched to the input sensitivity of the amp - and to use in line attenuators to achieve that match, if necessary, so the average volume setting is higher than 85%.

2. If there is an error in hardware or software the output can go instantly from 00000000 to 11111111 (for an 8 bit system). This digital crack would deliver a highly energetic pulse to your amp which would pass it on to your speakers - the tweeters might not survive (remember the amp is always at max volume.) Don't test anything on full volume, and only turn it up or remove the volume control when you are sure of the stability of your system. In practice this will not be an issue for you because, I guess, you will be using a Standac's variable output which has an analogue volume control - a simple but effective potentiometer. Start at zero volume on the Standac and wind it up gently, just as you would if the Preamp were in circuit - it's no different.

therockst4r
06-08-2009, 14:40
Thank you for clearing that up Labarum.

Dougr33
06-08-2009, 17:39
I don't think relying on a computer program's digital volume is worth the risk if you love your equipment. Computer glitches happen, period. As Brian said, the result could be very expensive damage. (you might be surprised how much replacement tweeters or crossover boards are)

therockst4r
06-08-2009, 17:53
I wouldn't use the line out, so that wouldn't really be an issue. The potentiometer would prevent it from reaching maximum volume, also I am pretty sure that my power amp isn't even powerful enough to do any damage.

Junglist
07-08-2009, 10:09
I have been reading about the Caiman with interest and have a question. I am currently using a Cambridge Audio DACMagic. Is the Caiman likely to be any superior to the DACMagic, as it's apparently using a single WM8716 chip whereas the DACMagic is using dual WM8740s? According to the Wolfson spec sheets they are basically the same chip, but the WM8740 has a better SNR, especially when they're running in stereo?

I'm asking because I'm interested in getting another DAC, but I've recently tested a very expensive DAC that uses the same WM8740 chip as the DACMagic and it sounded identical.

Thanks!

Labarum
07-08-2009, 10:37
I wouldn't use the line out, so that wouldn't really be an issue. The potentiometer would prevent it from reaching maximum volume, also I am pretty sure that my power amp isn't even powerful enough to do any damage.


If you are talking about the variable output of the Standac, yes, as it sits in the system, its volume control offers the same degree of protection as that of any pre-amp or integrated amp.

A power amp does not have to be powerful to do damage. If it is driven so hard it "clips", the tweeters are at risk. Clipping occurs when an amp runs out of steam.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clipping_%28audio%29

The hard leading edge of a clipped signal is full of high frequency energy - like a cymbal, only much much worse. That's why the tweeters can be blown.

marscay
07-08-2009, 11:44
I have been reading about the Caiman with interest and have a question. I am currently using a Cambridge Audio DACMagic. Is the Caiman likely to be any superior to the DACMagic, as it's apparently using a single WM8716 chip whereas the DACMagic is using dual WM8740s? According to the Wolfson spec sheets they are basically the same chip, but the WM8740 has a better SNR, especially when they're running in stereo?

I'm asking because I'm interested in getting another DAC, but I've recently tested a very expensive DAC that uses the same WM8740 chip as the DACMagic and it sounded identical.

Thanks!

I used a DACMagic for a week and i compared it to a 7510 that i also had, there wasn't much in it but the DACMagic had more detail although it sounded a little thin to me.

There is not much doubt to me that the 7520 is a better DAC than the DACMagic imo however and once you add some better opamps it is clearly a better performer and the 'Caiman' improves on the 7520 again by quite a bit.

You can't really go by SNR numbers and the like, some of the enthausiast soundcards (Xonar/Auzentech) have good DAC's and decent specs but they still don't cut the mustard for me.

Junglist
07-08-2009, 12:37
Thanks for your reply Marscay, very useful.

Forgive my ignorance, but I thought the 7520 was the same as the 7510 with a phono out and USB connection?

The whole modding thing is difficult to stack, as obviously the DACMagic can get modded as well, but the advantage of the Caiman is it requires no further expenditure beyond the basic unit.

I take your point with following numbers, a DAC can have awesome specs but sound dry as hell. I didn't get on with the Benchmark DAC1 personally, and I'm definitely in the minority there. However I do have a pretty revealing system so there is a real drop in resolution I will definitely notice it.

I wonder if there is there anyone who has heard the DACMagic and the Caiman running side by side who can comment further?


I used a DACMagic for a week and i compared it to a 7510 that i also had, there wasn't much in it but the DACMagic had more detail although it sounded a little thin to me.

There is not much doubt to me that the 7520 is a better DAC than the DACMagic imo however and once you add some better opamps it is clearly a better performer and the 'Caiman' improves on the 7520 again by quite a bit.

You can't really go by SNR numbers and the like, some of the enthausiast soundcards (Xonar/Auzentech) have good DAC's and decent specs but they still don't cut the mustard for me.

StanleyB
07-08-2009, 12:46
I wonder if there is there anyone who has heard the DACMagic and the Caiman running side by side who can comment further?
I have not had the opportunity to test the Caiman against any other DACs below £1K. However, the comparisons with far more expensive ones have been piling up in my email box.
One should remember that the DM is a Chinese mass market made product, whilst the Caiman isn't.

therockst4r
07-08-2009, 13:28
I have not had the opportunity to test the Caiman against any other DACs below £1K. However, the comparisons with far more expensive ones have been piling up in my email box.
One should remember that the DM is a Chinese mass market made product, whilst the Caiman isn't.
Where is the Caiman made?

The Vinyl Adventure
07-08-2009, 14:52
i was to impatient to wait til i got home to have a listen so i brought it to work

http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww282/hamish_gill/9e14f945-1.jpg

its not the ideal situatuion to get an impresion of sound quality... i dont really like the nad kit and it doesnt gel at all well with the monitor audio speakers we sell .. to my ear at least! but once the beresford was in there was def improved dynamics... i just want to go home now!

StanleyB
07-08-2009, 15:12
Where is the Caiman made?
In Taiwan, and mostly hand produced in small quantity. Each unit is individually tested afterwards and then carefully and lovingly packed in eco friendly packaging.

Junglist
07-08-2009, 15:16
I have not had the opportunity to test the Caiman against any other DACs below £1K. However, the comparisons with far more expensive ones have been piling up in my email box.
One should remember that the DM is a Chinese mass market made product, whilst the Caiman isn't.

Thanks for your reply Stan.

I don't really understand DAC design, but I was wondering if you could tell me how much the chip itself contributes towards the sound of the DAC, and how much is due to the other elements? With respect to the DACMagic I was wondering whether it running two of (nearly) the same chip provides any intrinsic benefit over the single chip in your design. I understand that the Caiman has other elements like the op-amps and caps which sound like they have been intelligently chosen to contribute to the overall sound quality.

I find the resolution from the DACMagic to be very impressive but I do feel it lacks a bit of sweetness in the treble and has a slightly digital feel which I am looking to improve on. I have compared it to a ~£2000 DAC which uses the same chipset and it sounded identical.

I am very tempted by the Caiman at it's attractive price, I guess I'm just waiting for a few more user reviews to come in.

Thanks :)

Junglist

StanleyB
07-08-2009, 17:22
Someone asked me why I used the WM8716 instead of the WM8740, and I replied 'go figure' ;). The specs of the WM8740 might be better on paper, but bolting a NE5534 at its analogue output neuters the benefits gained earlier on.

Gazjam
07-08-2009, 17:26
I'd be curious to hear a fitted WM8741 - apparently the "best dac chip in the world" (according to Linn...) ;)

marscay
07-08-2009, 17:31
The whole modding thing is difficult to stack, as obviously the DACMagic can get modded as well, but the advantage of the Caiman is it requires no further expenditure beyond the basic unit.

I take your point with following numbers, a DAC can have awesome specs but sound dry as hell. I didn't get on with the Benchmark DAC1 personally, and I'm definitely in the minority there. However I do have a pretty revealing system so there is a real drop in resolution I will definitely notice it.

I wonder if there is there anyone who has heard the DACMagic and the Caiman running side by side who can comment further?

Big advantage of the 7520 & Caiman is that you can modify the opamps yourself in 5mins, the DACMagic doesn't have socketed opamps afaik.

I am feeding an Arcam AV9 with the Caiman and it sounds wonderful, from my limited testing so far it's pulling more resolution than the AV9 so that's a pretty decent complement right there considering it's £3.5k price tag just a year ago.

Spur07
07-08-2009, 20:30
"I have compared it to a ~£2000 DAC which uses the same chipset and it sounded identical."

junglist, which dac was that?

therockst4r
07-08-2009, 20:38
Stan, what is the difference between the WM8741 and the WM8740?

leo
07-08-2009, 20:38
Thanks for your reply Marscay, very useful.

Forgive my ignorance, but I thought the 7520 was the same as the 7510 with a phono out and USB connection?



Not too long ago I repaired a TC7510, LM4562 op-amps etc, nice bit of kit.
Going by memory the standard 7520 bettered the modded 7510 to my ears, going to Caiman spec brought quite a big difference over the standard 7520 in my system all through the range

I briefly heard a stock Dacmagic, didn't really rate it sonically

leo
07-08-2009, 20:43
Stan, what is the difference between the WM8741 and the WM8740?

Their pin compatible , the 41 is slightly better specced

Alex_UK
07-08-2009, 21:02
In Taiwan, and mostly hand produced in small quantity. Each unit is individually tested afterwards and then carefully and lovingly packed in eco friendly packaging.

Slightly off topic, so forgive me - Stan, your website mentions "Limited Edition" - how many Caimans will be made?

StanleyB
07-08-2009, 22:00
Stan, your website mentions "Limited Edition" - how many Caimans will be made?
A limited amount.

Alex_UK
07-08-2009, 22:04
A limited amount.

I asked for that, didn't I! :lol:

The Vinyl Adventure
07-08-2009, 23:03
Stan, what is the difference between the WM8741 and the WM8740?

the linn majik ds has 1 8740 and the acurate has 2 8741's.... i hvae no idea of the implications of this in technical terms but i can tell you the acurate sounds frustratingly better than the majik

Labarum
08-08-2009, 02:34
A limited amount.

An amount limited by the quantity he can sell :)

StanleyB
08-08-2009, 08:16
An amount limited by the quantity he can sell :)
I am actually down to my last twenty something pieces. If there is still a demand I might make a few more. Some people have indicated that they would be on holiday in August, so they couldn't order or needed the money for holiday spending. They were hoping to order one in September.

Labarum
08-08-2009, 08:55
I am actually down to my last twenty something pieces.

I might want another.

But too much changing in my life at the moment

Covenant
08-08-2009, 09:00
Just concentrate on the upgraded power supply Stan!

StanleyB
08-08-2009, 09:09
Just concentrate on the upgraded power supply Stan!
I assume you mean the Caiman PSU.

Covenant
08-08-2009, 09:23
Absolutely-the job wont be complete until that arrives. I suppose you will be reluctant to get it reviewed unless it has its own power supply.

StanleyB
08-08-2009, 10:22
I suppose you will be reluctant to get it reviewed unless it has its own power supply.
If the reviewers are to believed, there are two other far better DACs from the UK. The clinical accuracy, rock solid bass, and detailed musical extraction of my DAC is not what magazine reviewers perceive as a winning formula. So I reckon my products are more suited for audiophiles who want to hear and feel warts and all, rather than the general public.

Stan

marscay
08-08-2009, 10:43
Spot on about the clinical aspect, especially with the Caiman ....it is really showing up some poor recordings and less than adequate compressed files.

Alex_UK
08-08-2009, 10:46
I was listening to a Sam Brown CD the other day, and for the first time ever thought how horribly sibilant her voice sounded (just on one particular track) – as I had never heard this before, I immediately “blamed” my new equipment (not necessarily the Caiman, as I have also recently moved to a Creek amp, and changed interconnects) – then I A/B'd the analogue and digital outputs on the CD player and realised it was the Caiman's fault – it was revealing the bad recording – which for me, is exactly what I want – the truth! Keep it up Stan.

Can you clarify the point on the PSU with the Caiman - is there an upgraded one to follow? I'm considering replacing the figure 8 lead, but I'll hold off if there's a new unit in development.

DaveK
08-08-2009, 11:13
For what it's worth, the same unforgiving characteristics also apply to the Tirna-ised 7520. I have a Tony Bennett/KD Lang CD ripped to FLAC on PC which I have played many times before through standard 7520 without problem. Last night one track came up (on random playback) with continual slight but audible 'white noise' all through the track. Next track was fine so replayed the problem track and there it was again - very revealing, perhaps in more sense than one.
Cheers,

Spur07
08-08-2009, 11:15
If the reviewers are to believed, there are two other far better DACs from the UK. The clinical accuracy, rock solid bass, and detailed musical extraction of my DAC is not what magazine reviewers perceive as a winning formula. So I reckon my products are more suited for audiophiles who want to hear and feel warts and all, rather than the general public.

Stan


I guess that's why your products have found such favour with Naim Audio users.

Gazjam
08-08-2009, 11:22
Spot on about the clinical aspect, especially with the Caiman ....it is really showing up some poor recordings and less than adequate compressed files.

Dunno 'bout that so much...128Kbs Napster streams sound bloody great, all the involvement and musicality is there...

Oasis sounds a bit pants though!

There really is a more open window though, warts and all.
Works for me.

The Vinyl Adventure
08-08-2009, 11:29
I guess that's why your products have found such favour with Naim Audio users.

i agree!

The Vinyl Adventure
08-08-2009, 11:30
Oasis sounds a bit pants though!



theres a good reason for that!

REM
08-08-2009, 15:41
theres a good reason for that!

Could it be that the Gallagher bros grew up listening to The Beatles on their dads crappy little BSR changer equipped record player, complete with 10p selotaped on the headshell and using the same flip over needle it came with in 1961, cranked up to #11? At least that's what the Oasis 'sound' suggests to me.
:lolsign::lolsign:

ps: Seems that the general consensus re the recent LP reissues is they are just as compressed and 'orrible as the seedies.

Labarum
08-08-2009, 15:51
. . . crappy little BSR changer equipped record player . . .

Steady on. In the house my wife inherited from her Aunt in Cyprus we have a Pye Black Box

http://images.google.co.uk/images?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&hs=XD9&ei=Ep59Ss7KGaShjAfd5Y3xAQ&resnum=0&q=Pye%20black%20box&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi

A very nice BSR changer equipped record player that I am looking forward to having some fun with. It has the original cartridge that will only play 78s, and probably the original stylus; but if I take a 78 out of the lower cabinet of the accoustic gramophone in the dining room of the said house it plays beautifully.

What's your problem?

:)

spider_boris
08-08-2009, 18:00
I'm new here, so firstly, hello all. :)
I ordered a 7520 last Sunday. Stan rang me the next day to ask if I was interested in the Caiman instead as he had just added it to the site (a big thank you to Stan for that) so I went with the Caiman.
I bought the DAC primarily for headphone listening on computer and have tried that with good results. I also tried it speculatively with my very lacklustre cd system: A very aged Arcam Alpha, a middle aged, middle range Yamaha amp and rather elderly Tannoy r2 speakers. Since then I have barely turned it off; doing the classic 'rediscovering my cd collection'. Bearing in mind the obvious limitations of the other components, here are a few impressions:
Run in period: I have always been sceptical regarding this, but I must say that over the week the sound has gradually improved; out of the box I was impressed but not *that* impressed. I thought the upper treble sounded slightly ragged when I first heard it, that has definitely cleared up, as has imaging.
Detail: One of my first impressions was that I was no longer hearing 'Strings' but many instruments being played in concert. I found that with choral music (eg 'Transcriptions' by Accentus) I could hear the different characters and timbres of the voices making up the choir in a way I have never been able to with a recording before (even on very much better equipment!)
Imaging: This was the biggest 'ear opener'. On, for example, the Berglund recording with the Bournemouth S.O of Sibelius' 5th Symphony the strings were very discretely located in space... 1st and 2nd violins, violas and cellos just where they should be. I think this is related to the much improved detail described above.
I had a disconcerting experience on a couple of recordings (track 7 of 'Beyond Skin' by Nitin Sawhney being one) of sound that seemed to be coming from a position well away from the speakers (far away to the right in the cited example) This doesn't make much sense to me but it is what I heard.
I am surprised to find that I am listening at a lower volume than in the past, I don't know why that should be, I seem to be hearing a lot more than formerly.
The slight mixed blessing is that whilst some recordings are like the best seat in the house, or even a private recital, others are now unpleasant to listen to; that is about the recordings rather than the dac though.
I have no idea if these impressions will be useful to anyone else, I guess not many others will be using the dac alongside such decrepit equipment. Maybe it is useful to know that there is such a radical improvement even with such an 'unglamorous' system?
Finally I would like to ask a question; when I bought the Caiman it was with the intention of using it in due course as the pre amp for a pair of active speakers. I am going to have a listen to the Quad Active 11L soon. Has anyone any experience of using the 7520 in this way? Any comments about the Quads or any recommendations for other speakers?
--
David

Labarum
08-08-2009, 18:17
Welcome "Boris"

You can add your real first name and other details to a "Signature" if you choose.

Thank you for your write up. Stan's little boxes transform many a system.

The Caimen will certainly not hold the Quad Actives back.

I have not heard them, but have been canvassing for views.

The are various near field active monitors sold by music shops that could be used domestically - they don't look as pretty as the Quads, and may be too analytical.

Others may offer suggestions and opinions on that.

Explore here

http://www.gear4music.com/Studio_Monitors/Tannoy.html

http://www.gear4music.com/Studio_Monitors/Fostex.html

http://www.gear4music.com/Studio_Monitors/Genelec.html

spider_boris
08-08-2009, 19:12
Hi Brian,
Thanks for the welcome and your comments. The links are helpful.
Another speaker in the same vein is the Wharfedale Diamond 8.2 Active which is made by the same folk as the Quads and seems to use the same transducers, I don't know if the internals are different (but the price certainly is.) i don't much like the way they look though
http://www.htfr.com/more-info/MR238071
I guess in the end, I need to go and hear them :)
--
David

therockst4r
09-08-2009, 04:33
My Caiman was supposed to come today, but the mail person didn't think I was home and left a redelivery notice :/

Labarum
09-08-2009, 10:51
I guess in the end, I need to go and hear them :)


Let me know what your ears tell you, David.

There is another way through this minefield

http://www.avihifi.co.uk/adm9.html

Domestically acceptable active speakers with integral DAC - just add a digital source. Mind you, over £1000, and you have already spent a good chunk of that on a DAC.


http://www.avihifi.co.uk/neutron.html

£1300 but includes sub woofer which is essential because it houses the electronics.

This forum (AOS) is where Stan's Fans hang out.

Ash's Fans (Ash is Mr AVI) congregate here

http://hddaudio.net/punbb/index.php

I would love to have a direct comparison between the AVI solution and a Standac driving something like the Quad Actives.

I have heard rumours a digital Quad Active is on the way - it would make sense.

Or, if you have serious money, you buy Meridian.

Marco
09-08-2009, 11:42
Ash's Fans (Ash is Mr AVI) congregated here

http://hddaudio.net/punbb/index.php


OMG - no comment!! :mental:

:lol:

So that's where these, errm, 'characters' hang out now (yourself excluded in any derogatory reference)... I'm glad to see that Timmy-boy has found himself a 'happy home'. Thanks for the info, Brian!

Marco.

Labarum
09-08-2009, 11:52
So that's where these, errm, 'characters' hang out now . . .

Now, now Marco. Live and let live.

I am presently listening to

Title: AVRO Klassiek Beste NL MP3 256
URL: http://opml.radiotime.com/Tune.ashx?id=s55517&Formats=mp3,wma,real&username=sampletime&PartnerId=16

Edvard Grieg - Radu Lupu, London Symphony Orchestra, André Previn - Pianoconcert in a op.16 (Decca 414432-2)

And very nice it is too.

It is better than my Quad FM Tuner.

<Labarum dives into bunker and pulls down hatch.>

Marco
09-08-2009, 12:23
Hehehe... Brian, it's just after having read the same old blinkered 'pearls of wisdom' from the assembled 'cognoscenti' (all six of them!), one can't help but giggle. Check out this 'beauty' from AJ:


Just to put the record straight, I feel I should point out that Tubes/valve amplifiers, although not hi fi because they are too distorted and don't have enough headroom, are actually less distorted than a record player cartridge.

Friends of my parents had Quad 2s and ESL57s and I thought that marvellous and like all this old stuff, I can quite understand why people still buy it and enjoy it, I have old cars and enjoy them, but what irritates me is when it is suggested that it somehow compares with the best of today.


And that would be ADM9s, I presume?

Oh, FFS!! :lol: :lol:

Anyway, as long as they're happy!


I am presently listening to

Title: AVRO Klassiek Beste NL MP3 256
URL: http://opml.radiotime.com/Tune.ashx?...e&PartnerId=16

Edvard Grieg - Radu Lupu, London Symphony Orchestra, André Previn - Pianoconcert in a op.16 (Decca 414432-2)

And very nice it is too.

It is better than my Quad FM Tuner.


I'm sure it is, my friend, so enjoy! :cool:

Marco.

technobear
10-08-2009, 09:34
My Caiman arrived on Saturday so I attached it to some headphones and to my amp and set it playing to start breaking in. Then the phone rang with a party invite so I put the music on repeat and went out.

Came back Sunday evening and thought I'd listen to a couple of tracks on the 'phones to see how it was sounding...

3 hours later :lolsign: I had renewed respect for my venerable Beyer DT531 'phones. The Caiman drives them superbly. Even Pendulum didn't phase them. In fact Pendulum was something of a revelation. That bass kicks like a mule! So deep... so tight.

I played loads of stuff both old and new and I don't think I have ever had the hairs stand up on the back of my neck so many times in one session. I think I will be doing a lot more headphone listening from now on.

Transport duties were of course performed by the Transporter using a Mark Grant digital interconnect. I can't say yet whether I prefer the Caiman to the Transporter as the latter doesn't have a headphone output and nor does my amp.

I'll report on how it sounds through the Croft and the Zu's after it's run in for a few more days - and how it compares to the Transporter. Suffice it to say anyone who needs a digital-only headphone amp is likely to be very pleased with this one.

From what I've heard so far on 'phones at least it firmly wacks the butt of the Lavry DA10.

chrism
10-08-2009, 11:10
I also recieved my Caiman on Saturday and immediately swapped out my modded 7510 (ordered it on Friday pm so big thanks to Stan).

Listened Sunday and today and yes it is a big improvement over the 7510 mod 21 and 22 (4032 opamp, wire mod and 10,000 input cap). The sound is bigger, clearer and flows better than before. I can honestly say that I have not enjoyed listening to any of my previous setups as much (inc Naim etc).

I am really happy with the PC system comprising Squeezebox/Caiman/Avondale A260 and JM Lab 926 speakers and am finding that I can hear details on familiar tracks that I have not heard before.

I also had a go at Foobar through the USB into the Caiman and found very little change in the sound quality over using the wireless Squeezebox. The USB may have a slight advantage but I could be imagining this.

Bass is a little soft but I think that this will change when its been on a few more days.

Really great product Stan and I suspect will take some beating.

Regards

Chris

Gazjam
10-08-2009, 11:31
My Caiman arrived on Saturday so I attached it to some headphones and to my amp and set it playing to start breaking in. Then the phone rang with a party invite so I put the music on repeat and went out.

Came back Sunday evening and thought I'd listen to a couple of tracks on the 'phones to see how it was sounding...

3 hours later :lolsign: I had renewed respect for my venerable Beyer DT531 'phones. The Caiman drives them superbly. Even Pendulum didn't phase them. In fact Pendulum was something of a revelation. That bass kicks like a mule! So deep... so tight.

I played loads of stuff both old and new and I don't think I have ever had the hairs stand up on the back of my neck so many times in one session. I think I will be doing a lot more headphone listening from now on.

Transport duties were of course performed by the Transporter using a Mark Grant digital interconnect. I can't say yet whether I prefer the Caiman to the Transporter as the latter doesn't have a headphone output and nor does my amp.

I'll report on how it sounds through the Croft and the Zu's after it's run in for a few more days - and how it compares to the Transporter. Suffice it to say anyone who needs a digital-only headphone amp is likely to be very pleased with this one.

From what I've heard so far on 'phones at least it firmly wacks the butt of the Lavry DA10.

Wow, I'll watch this one with interest! :)

Junglist
10-08-2009, 12:03
"I have compared it [DACMagic] to a ~£2000 DAC which uses the same chipset and it sounded identical."

junglist, which dac was that?

Linn Majik DS (with the upgraded Dynamik PSU)

Spur07
10-08-2009, 13:19
Wow, I'll watch this one with interest! :)

technobear,

i'd also be extremely interested in how the caiman compares to a transporter through amp/speakers. i've heard plenty of good stuff about the transporter. can you do a quick head to head when you next get a chance?

cheers


spur07

The Vinyl Adventure
10-08-2009, 13:39
Linn Majik DS (with the upgraded Dynamik PSU)

personally i think the 7520 sounds more akin to the linn majik ds i didnt think the dacmagic sounded as realistic as either ...

... as a side point - the majik ds is a bit more than just a dac.. although i do agree with the fact that the linn sq wise isnt £1600 better than the 7520 and it is expensive anyway you look at it (it is linn after all). and in fact if it is better at all i have only ever picked out the odd bit of song where i have liked the majik more.. and i have wondered if that is down to cables
where the majik wins out over any dac for me is the fact it streams music very well and doesnt need an external dac to sound good, unlike most other direct streaming divices

Junglist
10-08-2009, 14:32
That's cool, most people really rate the Majik, I don't know what I was missing but I'm glad because it saved me a lot of money :)

I wrote a review on another site but in short, I found that my Sonos ZP90 + DACMagic was, for me, on my system, indistinguishable from the Linn Majik DS despite many hours of blind/sighted testing. The Majik is a great deal more expensive than the Sonos/DM combination, so it went back to the supplier. I understand that there may be subtle differences between them that I can't perceive that to other people might make the extra outlay worth it.

Anyway I'd better stop hijacking the thread now!

Cheers

Matthew


personally i think the 7520 sounds more akin to the linn majik ds i didnt think the dacmagic sounded as realistic as either ...

... as a side point - the majik ds is a bit more than just a dac.. although i do agree with the fact that the linn sq wise isnt £1600 better than the 7520 and it is expensive anyway you look at it (it is linn after all). and in fact if it is better at all i have only ever picked out the odd bit of song where i have liked the majik more.. and i have wondered if that is down to cables
where the majik wins out over any dac for me is the fact it streams music very well and doesnt need an external dac to sound good, unlike most other direct streaming divices

daveyboy
11-08-2009, 13:16
How does the Caiman compare to the Beresford 7510 in terms of bass? I read on another forum that it was their opinion that the Caiman was brilliant in many respects but was a little bass shy?

StanleyB
11-08-2009, 13:27
How does the Caiman compare to the Beresford 7510 in terms of bass? I read on another forum that it was their opinion that the Caiman was brilliant in many respects but was a little bass shy?
The Caiman has a flat frequency response from 10Hz to 20KHz.
If you are looking for something that has a modified response with say a boosted bass and/or treble, then the Caiman would not be of any use to you.

The Vinyl Adventure
11-08-2009, 13:32
The Caiman has a flat frequency response from 10Hz to 20KHz.
If you are looking for something that has a modified response with say a boosted bass and/or treble, then the Caiman would not be of any use to you.

aaaahhhh ... is that what the little graph in thee review in hfw(?) means?

StanleyB
11-08-2009, 13:44
That's not a Caiman, but yep. As their details reveal, the TC-7520 goes down to 2Hz at -1dB. If that is considered bass shy, then.....:mental:

The Vinyl Adventure
11-08-2009, 13:48
Ha, I'm quite chugged I can now understand those graphs!

Labarum
11-08-2009, 14:10
The Caiman has the same printed circuit board as the stock 7520, I believe, but has key components replaced with better and more expensive alternatives.

What is the extra cost of those better components?

If it is not great it would surely be better to make the Caiman the standard production model.

daveyboy
11-08-2009, 14:10
A bit confused by the response, the Beresford 7510 isn't intended for bass boost either is it?
Ah just read that again, so the Beresford 7520 has a lower frequency response than the Caiman? and if so, why

StanleyB
11-08-2009, 14:16
A bit confused by the response, the Beresford 7510 isn't intended for bass boost either is it?
Ah just read that again, so the Beresford 7520 has a lower frequency response than the Caiman? and if so, why
The human hearing is responsive to audio from 16Hz to 20KHz they tell us. All my DACs are flat within the human hearing response.

My own test equipment only goes down to 10Hz, so I can say what I measured. HIFI World has equipment that goes down lower than mine, so they quote 2Hz at -1dB for the TC-7510.

StanleyB
11-08-2009, 14:17
If it is not great it would surely be better to make the Caiman the standard production model.
Why? Not everyone can afford even the TC-7510, let alone the Caiman costing twice that amount.

Labarum
11-08-2009, 14:20
The human hearing is responsive to audio from 16Hz to 20KHz they tell us.

Wish mine was. I am about 50dB down at 8Khz in the left ear.

I would settle for a 3dB point of 15KHz!

Labarum
11-08-2009, 14:23
Why? Not everyone can afford even the TC-7510, let alone the Caiman costing twice that amount.

I should have been clearer. Let the 7510 be, but if the 7520 were to have the better components how much would it add to to retail price?

No ducking please, Stan.

leo
11-08-2009, 14:34
How does the Caiman compare to the Beresford 7510 in terms of bass? I read on another forum that it was their opinion that the Caiman was brilliant in many respects but was a little bass shy?

Certainly not bass shy here

BTW some things may measure the same but they don't sound the same, something I've found when messing about with diy, measure it first to make sure everythings ok and then for the last test use the ears;)

StanleyB
11-08-2009, 15:30
I should have been clearer. Let the 7510 be, but if the 7520 were to have the better components how much would it add to to retail price?

£50 extra, which is what I am charging.

Simon P
11-08-2009, 16:15
Certainly not bass shy here


Seconded - it's definitely not bass shy here either.

I've been playing Pendle Coven's 'Uncivil Engineering' through the Caiman. It's a deep bass monster of a CD and it sounds great through the Caiman.

:gig:

Fi-Wi
11-08-2009, 19:08
Having the Caiman for 3 weeks, I am absolutely convinced that this is the dac for me and my system.

I have a 7510 as well but what strikes me most is that the Caiman definitely has better mids. For example, when I listen to streaming opera, I can actually understandably hear each single German (or English/Dutch or whatever language I understand) words and sentences, which wasn't always the case with my 7510.

I also very much enjoy the bass my system produces with the Caiman. Nice and punchy but not overdone. I don't have to use my (very musical) MJ Acoustics pro 50 sub when listening to CD/Squeezebox.

And then the headphone amp. My Senn HD-570 seems like revived! This headphone is known for its neutral sounds which is why I bought it in the first place. The Caiman tickles its bass region though in a way the 7510 never did before. Just like with phoneless hearing the bass is very much there but not overdone, not booming. I was looking for an audiophile replacement for my HD-570 before I got my Caiman but I decided to keep it.

With my system in mind I think, with the Caiman, the sound can't be much better. I still visit AOS on a daily base to check if Stan finally has been given the CE approval to market his upgraded psu though.

Plus the knowledge that only 2 of 3 dozens of other lucky ones can enjoy the pleasure of a Caiman. :eyebrows:

Alex_UK
11-08-2009, 21:13
Well my Caiman has now been installed for 1 week - the new Creek Amp/Silver High Breed I/C's a week tomorrow. First question to Stan - I've never previously turned any components off - my recently retired Audiolab amp having been switched off only ever for 4 house moves, 1 accident by an ex! (she didn't become an ex just because of that!) and the odd power cut in 13 years - do you envisage this being a problem with the Caiman?

Well, initially I bought the Caiman partly for the Roku Soundbridge (I've stopped using it the past couple of years as it sounds so inferior to my CD player) but mainly for Laptop based music - I'm very drawn to Spotify, Last FM etc, as well as looking at other options now bandwidth is no issue. However, as I had a spare Coax input (the toslink is taken up with my Xbox360, and the PS3 is currently connected to the plasma - the hi-fi setup has a monitor shared between the laptop and xbox so I can play games or listen properly to internet music whilst my wife watches her crappy soaps...) I also connected the CD player up, interested to see how the Beresford might put up a brave fight in some A/B comparisons... Well, little did I expect the DAC to beat the onboard one on the KI Signature, maybe naively, I thought a £600 player would have better computer circuitry!

Having directly compared the 2 over the last week, a casual listen would suggest that the Caiman is bass *light* compared to the KI, but in fact detailed comparison has shown that the Caiman is much tighter and controlled in the bass rather than just trying to impress with bags of bloated bottom end. I would agree with some others on here that the amazing difference is in the midrange - separation and clarity greatly improved. I think the biggest difference I can notice is the soundstage - especially with early stero recordings (Louis Armstrong, for example) it seems about 25% wider through the Caiman than straight out of the analogues on the CD.

So, I bought the Caiman to try and bring streaming and Internet music up to the quality of CD - does it do that? I have absolutely no idea, I can't drag myself away from the cliche that I have become, "rediscovering" my CD collection (god I hate that expression, but it is just so damn true!)

MartinT
11-08-2009, 21:33
I don't switch any of my system off.

Alex_UK
11-08-2009, 21:53
I don't switch any of my system off.

I don't want to drift the thread, but it does apply to the DAC - my reasoning has not been as much to sonic performance but to component failure - I argue that the constant heating/cooling/heating cycle is what will cause parts to fail - the initial surge of electricity when you power up being the most damaging - i.e. how many times has a light bulb blown on me an hour or two after it was switched on? Never - they always blow when you turn them on. If you never turn them off, they can't blow? Complete amateur/non-technical rationale, but I bet I'm right!

MartinT
11-08-2009, 22:22
Generally, lack of power cycles does preserve electronics. They also sound better :)

daveyboy
12-08-2009, 17:05
I am sorely tempted, the 7510 has no problem producing bass, so if this has better bass, without losing the depth, then excellent :)

chrism
12-08-2009, 17:39
I wouldn't swap out your 7510 just on the basis that the Caiman may have better/more/less bass.

If you are trying to achieve the most realistic reproduction of music in your home possible without resorting to spending megabucks then I believe the Caiman will move you closer to that aim.

Regards

daveyboy
12-08-2009, 17:46
Oh I hear you on that score, it's just obviously when words like bass shy are used, my immediate reaction is to think it has no noticeable bass then, whereas the sensible thing to do would be to ask compared to what? Of course bass isn't the only concern, it's a cocktail of things which it sounds like the Caiman has :smoking:

daveyboy
12-08-2009, 18:17
Just seen whf will be reviewing the Caiman later this month

StanleyB
12-08-2009, 18:19
it's a cocktail of things which it sounds like the Caiman has :smoking:
A few people have mentioned to me that some parts of their equipment they had set eyes upon for replacement before trying out the Caiman have now been given a new lease of life and a subsequent stay of execution. So the Caiman could put a damper on your other upgrade plans.

Labarum
15-08-2009, 15:41
Just listening to

Johannes Brahms - Sonata per pianoforte in fa diesis No.2 Op.2 - II

Not a piece I have heard before - absolutely beautiful. Tears to my eyes.

Listening on

Venice Classic MP3 128
http://www.shoutcast.com/sbin/tunein-station.pls?id=4975&filename=playlist.

So not one of the highest bitrates available, nor yet the best Codec.

Brilliant Stan, Brilliant!

lovejoy
17-08-2009, 14:14
Hi guys,
I thought I'd share with you a very interesting and enlightening afternoon I spent at a friends house with the Caiman yesterday.

The friend in question has been a big Naim fan for many years and has a pretty serious system consisting of a CDS2 CD player, 52 pre-amp with Supercap and 2x135 power amps driving a pair of Dynaudio Contour 3.3s which are monsters. He'd been intrigued about the whole computer + DAC for playback and streaming audio so I agreed to take my Macbook and Caiman down to hook it up to his system.

I ripped a selection of his CDs to the hard drive (losslessly) and we sat listening for a good while. It sounded pretty stunning, so my friend came up with the idea of doing some A/B comparisons against his CDS2. I was in doubt at first that there could be much of a comparison between a CD player and a DAC costing less than 10% of its value, but oh no...

What transpired was that we'd listen for a couple of minutes to a track on the CDS2, then move to the Caiman - and proceed to play the entire track, not daring to stop it half way through like we did on the Naim. In almost every area, the Caiman did things better. Most notably in the timing department which explains why we spent so long listening to that and so little time to the CDS2. Instrument position was better, focus better, separation better, vocal textures much better. In fact, the whole midband was just cleaner and better defined.

The only area that the CDS2 outperformed the Caiman was in the bass, there was just more presence to it and it went somewhat lower. I found this quite strange as back at home in my system, there are no complaints with bass whatsoever, so I wondered whether there was some impedance matching issue with the Naim pre-amp, which obviously the CDS2 would not suffer from, being another Naim product.

Even so... For a DAC to perform so well against one of Naim's flagship products is quite amazing, and for it to perform so well as the front end to 10K worth of amp and speakers is quite frankly mind blowing.

Gazjam
17-08-2009, 15:28
great writeup Rich, pretty impressive I'd say and great to know the Caiman can perform in a revealing system like the Naim surely is.

10K huh?
Guess I wont need to upgrade my source anytime soon? :)

chebby
17-08-2009, 15:52
Having a --> b demo'ed my TC-7520 (LM4562NA) up against a Naim CD5i and CD5X in the recent past (April) I can confidently say that both Naim CDP's were comfortably better. (Yes, lossless files were used.)

Purchase of an £895 CD player (or not) was in the balance - with me being £895 better off if the TC-7520 came near enough in performance - so this was not done light-heartedly. There were a lot of other things I could do with almost £900 :)

It would have also been the 'break off' point where I would have finally decided once-and-for-all whether to continue with traditional CD replay or not.

The result is here to see...

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3483/3466586376_69b1c8c41f_m.jpg

I use both but the DAC serves to play Freeview radio, DVD sound, iTunes downloads and internet radio, BBC iPlayer etc rather than replace a CD player.

I am incredulous that a somewhat more modified TC-7520 than mine (in the shape of a Caiman) could be thought better than a CDS2.

I will be interested to see what happens with the WHF Caiman review and if they have similar findings to 'Lovejoy' and his friend.

Maybe I am going to be able to sell the Naim kit buy a Caiman and have nice wedge of change to enjoy!

trailer
17-08-2009, 15:57
I have to agree with Lovejoys findings.

My CD5X/FlatCap has been gathering dust since I got the 7520 Wolfsoned.

Has anyone else got anything like the Monarchy Upsampler/Jitterbuster in the loop at all?

chebby
17-08-2009, 16:04
I have to agree with Lovejoys findings.

My CD5X/FlatCap has been gathering dust..


That is a serious bit of kit to be collecting dust with, so why not sell it?

trailer
17-08-2009, 16:12
Good question.

There have been rumours of Naim doing an in-house mod for adding a S/PDIF out to the existing players (at a cost no doubt). The new CD5XS and the CDX2S both have these as standard now.

I've been in a bit of a quandry as to which way to go forward. High on the list is to upgrade the 202 to a 282 and P/X the CD.

Are you offering per chance? :lolsign:

lovejoy
17-08-2009, 16:13
The Wolfson DAC really does make the Caiman a very different beast to the 7520. Plus of course what sort of digital signal you're feeding it with makes all the difference.

I suspect the What Hi-Fi? review of the Caiman will count for nothing unless:
a. They've suddenly employed people with a clue
b. They've turned into a proper consumer magazine and won't be giving the award to the highest bidder.

Cynical? Me? Never!

The Vinyl Adventure
17-08-2009, 16:17
i have to say these comments dont suprise me .. the linn majik ds is suposed to be better sounding the the cds2, and my caiman isnt that far off my majik with a whole bunch of god awfull cables involved

im not so sure about the cd5x/flatcap but when i had my cd5/flatcap i was wholy unimpressed with it as soon as the majik ds came on the sceen

my advice would be to sell the flatcap/cd5x whilst it still demands the cash it does now... i lost £80 on my cd5 in 6 months!

i have just aranged taking the caiman to uhes for comparison with all the linn ds range in a more controlled envrionment than my lounge ... its just a shame im crap at write ups really!!

The Vinyl Adventure
17-08-2009, 16:22
I've been in a bit of a quandry as to which way to go forward. High on the list is to upgrade the 202 to a 282 and P/X the CD.



well worth it!!!!!!

my next big upgrade is 82-282 + 180-250

i really like the 282!!

its the problem with naim kit... its good but its not great till its very expensive... good job it holds value eh

chebby
17-08-2009, 16:29
I suspect the What Hi-Fi? review of the Caiman will count for nothing unless:
a. They've suddenly employed people with a clue
b. They've turned into a proper consumer magazine and won't be giving the award to the highest bidder.

Cynical? Me? Never!

I recall a 5* review of the TC-7510 in WHF. (It is still there)

Do you think Stanley outbid his competitors on that occasion, or that WHF really might actually have a clue?

There have been many instances of WHF 'ripping' into products from some of their biggest, oldest advertisers and not just on some 'token' basis with obscure 'back of the brochure' items (to allay suspicious minds) but more than once on some quite heavy duty 'strategic' products from big companies.

Covenant
17-08-2009, 16:30
The Wolfson DAC really does make the Caiman a very different beast to the 7520. Plus of course what sort of digital signal you're feeding it with makes all the difference.

I suspect the What Hi-Fi? review of the Caiman will count for nothing unless:
a. They've suddenly employed people with a clue
b. They've turned into a proper consumer magazine and won't be giving the award to the highest bidder.

Cynical? Me? Never!

I glanced at the what-hifi review in Smiths today-wasnt it the bog standard 7520 they reviewed?

chebby
17-08-2009, 16:39
I glanced at the what-hifi review in Smiths today-wasnt it the bog standard 7520 they reviewed?

Yes it was the bog standard TC-7520 reviewed.

BUT it was Hifi World who have reviewed it this month (HFW, current September 2009 issue, group DAC test, page 18) and not WHF.

WHF are reviewing the Caiman soon.

lovejoy
17-08-2009, 16:40
I recall a 5* review of the TC-7510 in WHF. (It is still there)

Do you think Stanley outbid his competitors on that occasion, or that WHF really might actually have a clue?

There have been many instances of WHF 'ripping' into products from some of their biggest, oldest advertisers and not just on some 'token' basis with obscure 'back of the brochure' items (to allay suspicious minds) but more than once on some quite heavy duty 'strategic' products from big companies.

I'm not saying that there haven't been occasions when they haven't got it right, and writing a magazine on what is, at the end of the day a completely subjective topic must be a bit of a nightmare at times, but over 20 years experience of this mag, there have been countless examples of correlations between good reviews for what have been at best, mediocre products and large spends in advertising by the manufacturer in question. What Hi-Fi? never has, and never will be a consumer magazine (like e.g. Which) and should never be trusted as such.

Apologies, I'll get off my soapbox. It's the remaining scars of seeing so many people walk into your shop clutching a copy of WHF and treating it as the bible, with the guy in the shop, the devil.

Labarum
17-08-2009, 17:01
The Wolfson DAC really does make the Caiman a very different beast to the 7520. . . . giving the award to the highest bidder.


"Go, go, go, said the bird: human kind
Cannot bear very much reality."

TS Eliot

http://www.tristan.icom43.net/quartets/norton.html

SteveW
17-08-2009, 17:19
i have just aranged taking the caiman to uhes for comparison with all the linn ds range in a more controlled envrionment than my lounge ... its just a shame im crap at write ups really!!

Now that I can't wait to hear about. I will probably do the same myself at some point.
Just bought one of the last Caiman available (until the next batch??!)

Anyway...It was supposed to be a bit of a stop gap until next year when I can afford a system overhaul, which includes a DS ...(Akurate or Majik - to be decided).
However I have to say that I'm blown away by the quality of sounds I'm now getting. I am using via airport express to play itunes Apple lossless files as well as FLACs via Cog playing wirelessly through Airfoil. I now have two 7510 being similarly used elsewhere in the house, but the improvement with the Caiman is sublime.
Just a thought though..Is there a better way to get a signal from an iMac sited upstairs to the main system other than using wireless to an airport express. Ethernet? In other words, making it more like a DS ?

lovejoy
17-08-2009, 17:25
"Go, go, go, said the bird: human kind
Cannot bear very much reality."

TS Eliot

http://www.tristan.icom43.net/quartets/norton.html

Come again?

Labarum
17-08-2009, 17:35
Come again?

Should I need to?

I use the quote from Eliot to make Stan's point that reviewers are more interested in a sound that is pretty rather than realistic.

Humankind cannot bear very much reality. Was I so oblique?

Gazjam
17-08-2009, 17:44
Not oblique Brian, perhaps a touch Arch. ;)

Labarum
17-08-2009, 17:48
Not oblique Brian, perhaps a touch Arch. ;)

And I don't know what "Arch" means, unless it is a contraction of "archaic".

:)

chebby
17-08-2009, 17:51
And I don't know what "Arch" means, unless it is a contraction of "archaic".

:)

Arch:

–adjective
1. playfully roguish or mischievous: an arch smile.
2. cunning; crafty; sly.

Labarum
17-08-2009, 17:55
Never seen that usage

http://www.chambersharrap.co.uk/chambers/features/chref/chref.py/main?query=arch&title=21st&sourceid=Mozilla-search

Chambers definition I know.

Labarum
17-08-2009, 17:58
Ah here

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/arch

Interesting!

Gazjam
17-08-2009, 18:15
every days a schoolday! :)

Fi-Wi
17-08-2009, 18:23
Tell me about it! :)

:interesting: :interesting: :interesting:

Labarum
17-08-2009, 18:26
every days a schoolday! :)

Should "days" have an apostrophe, Gaz?

You had better start working the weights, if you a going to buy a Quad 405.

:ner:

Labarum
17-08-2009, 18:28
Back to "arch". What is the etymology? It's not the same as in "Archbishop".

chebby
17-08-2009, 18:36
Back to "arch". What is the etymology? It's not the same as in Archbishop.

Arch as in Archbishop means 'chief'. So possibly the use of terms like arch-criminal (ie clever and cunning and devious) gave rise to 'arch' itself coming to mean devious, sly, and cunning too.

Just an idea.

Labarum
17-08-2009, 19:16
Two sources I have found suggest it is from archknave or archrogue (even arch-cove)

http://www.yourdictionary.com/arch

http://tinyurl.com/pkqto7


Wherever did you find that 17th century slang Gaz?

Covenant
17-08-2009, 19:37
Now if I was the vindictive type I could shout "THREAD DRIFT"....
But I am not so I wont.

lovejoy
17-08-2009, 19:39
Should I need to?

I use the quote from Eliot to make Stan's point that reviewers are more interested in a sound that is pretty rather than realistic.

Humankind cannot bear very much reality. Was I so oblique?

My apologies. It's been a very long day.

Labarum
17-08-2009, 19:42
Now if I was the vindictive type I could shout "THREAD DRIFT"....
But I am not so I wont.

But that would be so arch . . . :lolsign:

webby
18-08-2009, 20:58
Hi all,

I've been away from this forum for a while (some may recognise my name) whilst my final days at work (redundancy) became hectic to say the least. I finished at the end of july.

I pop back on here today to find that Stan has this Limited Edition Caiman DAC out. Interesting. Sounds very nice by this thread.

My tack has changed slightly after I decided to replace rather than upgrade my mac with another one from Ebay. I now have a 20" intel iMac with 2.33ghz, 4gb Ram, 500gb Hard drive. Very nice, but I'm not giving up on the iMac to DAC to HiFi option just yet. I'm merely being cautious with my time and money now. I have more of one and not enough of the other. But, stepping back can sometimes be a good thing as I now have the Caiman to consider.

Labarum: You're in Southampton? Me too. Well, Totton.

Labarum
18-08-2009, 21:03
Labarum: You're in Southampton? Me too. Well, Totton.

Not yet. Move mid September. Buying a flat on the edge of the Common.

Alex_UK
18-08-2009, 21:18
I now have the Caiman to consider.

Hi Webby - you're not using an offboard DAC at all? If not, I suspect the difference with a Caiman (indeed any StanDac) would be huge, if my experience is anything to go by. I'd be surprised if it didn't improve your CD player too - and that is from an Audiolab fan! (8000S just given up the ghost after 13 years :( )

Alex_UK
18-08-2009, 21:20
Hi Webby - you're not using an offboard DAC at all? If not, I suspect the difference with a Caiman (indeed any StanDac) would be huge, if my experience is anything to go by. I'd be surprised if it didn't improve your CD player too - and that is from an Audiolab fan! (8000S just given up the ghost after 13 years :( )

Oh, forgot to say, also a great headamp, for my SR60s, so your 80s would probably love a Caiman too... (no, I'm not on commission, or a relative!)

worrasf
20-08-2009, 18:07
Hi Stan - I'll be sure to post after my Caiman arrives. You know how pleased I have been with the 7510 and 7520 :)
Steve

Labarum
21-08-2009, 07:10
Anyone experience of Beolab 4000 Active Loudspeakers?

http://www.bang-olufsen.com/beolab4000

They are expensive for their size but could be the solution to a domestic problem. They can be found second hand.

Would anyone hazard a guess about how they would pair with a Caiman? Stan's opinion would be most valued.

Wall mounted, they could be a solution for loudspeaker listening in my new flat.

I have always thought Beo stuff stylish but way overpriced, but someone (on this list?) rated them.

webby
21-08-2009, 09:49
Do you need any racks Brian?

Labarum
21-08-2009, 09:54
I don't understand the question, or why you put it, Lee.

I am trying to avoid rack-mounted studio equipment!

webby
21-08-2009, 11:44
Sorry Brian, I hadn't learned what setup you going for, just that you were setting up new gear in a new flat. I have 2 rack units, so I just thought I'd ask if you needed one.

Never mind.

worrasf
26-08-2009, 17:19
Stan has done it again:)

My Caiman arrived a couple of days ago so left it on over night before sitting down to have a listen.

I have owned both the 7510 and latterly 7520 with uprated PSU so that is what I am using by way of comparison.

Initial listening was to Thea Gilmore's Harpo's Ghost an album I have come to know and love very much over the last week or so.

The first thing that strikes you is the way the soundstage "blooms" - difficult to put into words but I usd to use the term "euphonic" to try and describe the essential quality of vinyl over CD - well the Caiman imparts that bloom and almost a warmth - not that the 7520 was harsh. The music wells up and flows effortlessly to create a more coherent 3d soundtage - the presentation is a little more forward than the 7520 but not "in your face". All the nuances and inflections, breaths and phrasing of Thea's voice are revealed in far more detail giving far more emotion and "intimacy" to her lyrics.

Bass goes lower - much lower and is tight and tuneful and never overpowers the rest. Acoustic and electric guitars are clearer - harmonics from the electric guitar shimmer and add so much more to the whole. Percussion - snare drum, tambourine etc are much clearer - previously I struggled to decide if something was a shaking bell or shaking tambourine - no longer the difference is obvious.

So I guess what we have is a significant improvement in overall clarity across the entire audio spectrum which goes several more steps to making the recorded music nearer the real thing and more believeable and enjoyable :smoking:

I am very pleased and as its only 48 hours in I gues it can only get better.


Very interested to hear views of other Caiman users

Regards to all
Steve

StanleyB
27-08-2009, 09:19
The first thing that strikes you is the way the soundstage "blooms" - difficult to put into words but I usd to use the term "euphonic" to try and describe the essential quality of vinyl over CD - well the Caiman imparts that bloom and almost a warmth -
With the Caiman it is the closest I have so far managed to get to the original analogue sound many of us would recognize from our vinyl collection. The only thing I left out from the vinyl is Rumble and Feedback.

Labarum
27-08-2009, 10:46
I swapped my 7510 6/4 back into the main system so I could experiment in another room with the Caiman driving my new Sony F1 headphones through USB from a laptop. (Bit perfect playback using Foobar in either ASIO and WASAPI modes.) The F1s are very revealing, open and comfortable to wear. They are not rated by my wife because they spill so much noise!

I can live with the sound of either DAC on both the new headphones and the main speakers. The 7510 seem to give more bass, but it has very sloppy bass in comparison to the Caiman. Both sounds are very pleasant, and when listening as background the only difference I hear is the over blown bass of the 7510. When concentrating I can hear the extra detail of the Caiman.

Those used to mid-fi and home cinema setups might actually prefer the less accurate sound of the 7510!

How do these observations rest with others?

worrasf
27-08-2009, 11:03
Stanley - I'm gratified that your post concerning striving for nearest thing to vinyl confirms my subjective experience of the Caiman and that I wasn't talking complete tosh:lolsign:

Regards
Steve

Labarum
27-08-2009, 11:14
With the Caiman it is the closest I have so far managed to get to the original analogue sound many of us would recognize from our vinyl collection. The only thing I left out from the vinyl is Rumble and Feedback.

In part is that down to the up-sampling DAC chip? The up-sampling doesn't make the jagged digital edges smoother, but it means the output is less messed about by filtering.

StanleyB
27-08-2009, 11:26
Stanley - I'm gratified that your post concerning striving for nearest thing to vinyl confirms my subjective experience of the Caiman and that I wasn't talking complete tosh.
I would quite happily swap my titles for yours;). It's always a pleasure to read the observations of a learned friend:).

Stan

worrasf
27-08-2009, 11:58
I would quite happily swap my titles for yours;). It's always a pleasure to read the observations of a learned friend:).

Stan

Gosh Stan now you've gone and made me blush ;)

Regards
Steve

Alex_UK
27-08-2009, 16:40
Those used to mid-fi... might actually prefer the less accurate sound of the 7510!

How do these observations rest with others?

Can't comment on the 7510, but the Caiman vs CD Player's DAC is a similar comparison - as I think I posted before, at first it took me a while to understand that the bass with a Caiman may seem not as strong, but what I actually hear is more tuneful and tighter bass, not just a low range thump or a floundering bassline - much more punchy through the Caiman - which takes a bit of getting used to if it is a new experience.

Ashmore
28-08-2009, 12:55
Hello AOF people.

I'm close to buying an external dac (caiman in mind). But I've not owned one before and could do with some views. I guess really what I'm seeking is a bit of reassurance before committing.

Heres the background. I use an SB3. Fabulous thing; I love it. I run (mostly) FLACs through a Rotel RA05 and some Quad 11Ls + KEF sub. The sound is quite bright and analytical. Not warm. I've always thought there's a tendency (either of the system and/or the SB3) to be a bit grating on the very high notes (singers' 'essess' and symbol crashes). It's not that bad really, but it annoys me. I am obviously a bit hypersensitive (and, according to my wife, quite anal).

Hence my interest in the caiman... some opinions please: Caiman + SB sound: I'm looking to take that harsh edge off the treble. I want to open up the soundstage a bit. I'd like a bit more separation on the bass. Will I get it?

Ta

Simon

Covenant
28-08-2009, 13:16
Hi Simon,
I use Quad 11L and 12L's in my AV system and have briefly tried them in place of my Vandies in my hifi system which has a Caimanized 7520. The Caiman will improve overall quality without a shadow of a doubt and produces a valve-like warm sound. It can, of course, be further tailored by changing op-amps if the sound isnt exactly what you want.

StanleyB
28-08-2009, 13:47
If it's to go with the SB3 then the tC-7520 would be a far better option.
The Caiman extra abilities would get wasted on the SB3.

Gazjam
28-08-2009, 13:53
For what its worth I was a 7520 owner running it with a SB3 (like you playing lossless FLAC files) and I upgraded to the Caiman.

Gotta respectfully disagree with Stan here, I noticed the improvement right away over the 7520 with the Caiman.

Much more high end sounding, even with a SB3 Stan ;)

Naa, the SB3 through a proper Dac (like either of Stans) can give high end CD players (and even the Transporter) a fright.
There is no difference in the digital out between the Transporter and the SB3, its the DAC that makes the difference.

Simon, you will get all those improvements over the stock SB3 with either of Stans Dacs, just more so with the Caiman.
I'd go for the Caiman if it was me.

Alex_UK
28-08-2009, 14:06
Caiman + SB sound: I'm looking to take that harsh edge off the treble. I want to open up the soundstage a bit. I'd like a bit more separation on the bass. Will I get it?

By and large yes, but what you may find (as I have) is that some music will actually sound harsher in the treble - especially cymbals - but, I've come to the conclusion (backed up by another member observing the same harshness on one of the worst offenders) that it is the Caiman revealing the bad recording, rather than causing the issue. This only affects a few recordings, anecdotally I'd say from the 70s and not remastered seem to be the worst? I think most people will agree that the Caiman is very revealing of a bad (or good, of course!) recording. The soundstage definitely opens up, and see my earlier post for the bass comments.

I'm sure you will be introducing yourself in the Welcome section, so look forward to hearing a bit more about your musical tastes etc.

StanleyB
28-08-2009, 14:12
Alex has pointed out the reason why I think the TC-7520 would be better. The Caiman would reveal errors, and for a 1st time DAC owner that would easily be blamed on the DAC. Even the V-DAC might be a better option. It is warm and less revealing plus soft in the tops. That would go nicely with the harsh SB3 tops, and be cheaper as well.

Stan

Gazjam
28-08-2009, 14:30
Yup fair point Stan.

For me though I love the "warts and all" nature of the Caiman.
The "hair on the back of the neck" moments more than outweigh the odd duff recording for me.
I'd rather know I was hearing it untampered than artificially enhanced.

The SB3 though through your Dac is as good a digital source as most.
Stock though, its a different story. Not bad but not super.

But yeah, fair point. :)

Ashmore
28-08-2009, 14:41
Thanks guys for these views.

Gosh it doesn't make it an easy decision though! Such is the subjective nature of things I guess.

Part of me buys the argument that the less revealing 7520 will suit my immediate needs, not least because you've given me the advice I've asked for.

But if I do, part of me will always wonder what more I could be hearing. Don't tell me I have to buy both to find satisfaction! ;)

Simon

Spur07
28-08-2009, 15:08
Simon,

The beresford sound is very akin to the Naim Audio 'warts an' all' philosophy - very exciting with a very wide soundscape. Whether you buy a 7520 or a Caiman it should transform your SB3, but the top end will be clearly prominent - I'm afraid its a case of suck it and see.

Labarum
28-08-2009, 15:33
I cannot compare SB3+7520 with SB3+Caiman becuse I only have a 7510 and a Caiman.

The improvement of the Caimen over the 7510 is very significant, and I don't think the Caimen is showing flaws in the SB3. My instincts lead me to follow Gaz's view.

I have a great deal of respect for the digital out of the SB3 (even if the internal DAC is poor).

SB3 > coax S/PDIF link > Caiman > Quad 405

beats

Foobar on Laptop in bit perfect WASAPI or ASIO mode > USB link > Caiman.

There is nothing wrong with the SB3 streamer and I think it merits a Caiman.

I would wait till the next batch is in.

chrism
28-08-2009, 15:58
I also run a SB3 digital out into a Caiman (variable out) into an Avondale A260 power amp and it sounds great. I have reduced my setup from a Naim CDS1 / Avondale Grad1 preamp and am just as happy with the overall sound and cost savings made.

To me the SB3 digital out sounds the same as USB/foobar from a PC and I have gone round in circles doing quite a lot of A /B tests with this (using EAC/flac copied original CD's and MP3 files). So really sorry but on this basis I don't agree with the statements regarding the SB3 digital out not being a good enough streamer etc.

Also wired / wireless SB3 sounds the same to me and again I have gone to town testing this one out too. I have kept things wireless which enables the PC to be sited in another room.

My next test is to try a macbook using spdiff output as Mr Tibbs on Pink Fish Media has reported good results with this compared to PC / Laptops running XP etc.

Hope this helps narrow things down a bit.

Regards

Chris

trailer
28-08-2009, 16:06
I just did a quick experiment this afternoon.

Here is my order of listening preference:

1. AppleTV streaming Apple Lossless via the Monarchy DIP (optical in) to the 7520 (co-ax in) (Wolfsoned/AD826)
2. Naim CD5X (no 7520W involved)
3. Oppo BD-83 co-ax feed into 7520

The differences between the three are quite marked.

Labarum
28-08-2009, 16:15
To me the SB3 digital out sounds the same as USB/foobar from a PC

I will agree there is not much in it. I need to explore a better USB lead, and I am waiting to see how the laptops sound when I move house (noisey mains?)- I can only use them as USB feeds to the Caiman with the laptops running on batteries or I get digital hash. Maybe my laptop - USB instalation is not good.

One of the laptops acts as the SB3 server, and no hint of a problem there.

But we are agreed - the SB3 deserves a Caiman.

Alex_UK
28-08-2009, 16:31
Just to add, I'm new to DACS too, "blamed" it (the Caiman) to start with, but then couldn't understand why it was only the odd track/album - with the help of everyone here, and knowing how the Caiman is so revealing, Simon can make an informed decision. I know I made the right one...

SteveW
28-08-2009, 19:00
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j280/Stevewaller/DSC_0071.jpg

Just my two pennyworth..
Get a Caiman.

It shows a Linn Ikemi how to behave. (Co-axial out to the Caiman)...and at the same time the optical is connected to an Airport express, which th=en plays itunes, and FLACs from Cog via Airfoil etc etc.

A dragon slayer indeed Stan.

lovejoy
29-08-2009, 06:51
It shows a Linn Ikemi how to behave. (Co-axial out to the Caiman)

A dragon slayer indeed Stan.

That post just illustrates how things have moved on. I remember selling Ikemis when they were new and at that time you'd never even contemplate sullying their outputs with a couple of hundred pounds worth of DAC.

Just goes to show what an amazing piece of kit the Caiman is.

SteveW
29-08-2009, 10:14
That post just illustrates how things have moved on. I remember selling Ikemis when they were new and at that time you'd never even contemplate sullying their outputs with a couple of hundred pounds worth of DAC.

Just goes to show what an amazing piece of kit the Caiman is.

Quite.. The detail revealed through the Caiman is substantially more than through the dac built into the ikemi.
If there is a downside, its that it can sound a bit sharp..

Labarum
29-08-2009, 10:46
For a few years I have known that the basic Audigy card in my ageing desktop PC sounds better that my Quad 77 CD player. Anyone want an immaculate Quad CDP?

Vorsprung durch technik!

http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/399450.html

Alex_UK
29-08-2009, 11:11
For a few years I have known that the basic Audigy card in my ageing desktop PC sounds better that my Quad 77 CD player.

I am now using a USB Audigy soundcard in my study system, and with the coax input connected to my old CD6000SE KI Signature as a transport - it's nowhere near being a Beresford, but sounds pretty good for what it is!

marscay
29-08-2009, 19:10
Quite.. The detail revealed through the Caiman is substantially more than through the dac built into the ikemi.
If there is a downside, its that it can sound a bit sharp..

Agreed, it sure doesn't hold back at times, great for well mastered material but can show up the worst in others. Can't blame the DAC for that though.

Something like Dire Straits - Brothers In Arms is just mesmerizing under the Caiman yet a bit of Motley Crue - Dr. Feelgood is almost unlistenable. Some would say anything which made Motley Crue unlistenable is a blessing :lol: and i would agree but they did make a killer single here and there. I would also say the Caiman really likes the White Stripes, it's really changed the soundstage for the better .....was kinda recessed with the 7520.

If you want to tame some of that sharpness you could do worse than trying the AD826 opamp, takes some of that edge off whilst not losing any detail.

MartinT
29-08-2009, 21:22
The sound quality from Sky HD broadcasts is amazing from the Caiman. I use the optical output from my Thomson HD box into the Caiman and the quality and detail from some HD broadcasts is simply mesmerising.

I just watched two episodes of ER in HD and the soundstage was enveloping, much wider than the placement of my speakers. Micro-detail in the mix from bleeping machines, background cast, noises off-stage keeps me engrossed and adds greatly to the drama. In this respect I really hear the greater detail retrieval and focus that the Caiman brings compared with my older DAC.

Chippy_boy
30-08-2009, 06:53
I just did a quick experiment this afternoon.

Here is my order of listening preference:

1. AppleTV streaming Apple Lossless via the Monarchy DIP (optical in) to the 7520 (co-ax in) (Wolfsoned/AD826)
2. Naim CD5X (no 7520W involved)
3. Oppo BD-83 co-ax feed into 7520

The differences between the three are quite marked.

As a matter of interest, I assume you have tried the Apple TV straight into the 7520, without using the Monarchy? Did you find the Monarchy made much of an improvement?

I am puzzled as to why any improvement should be large (or even perhaps why there should be any at all) considering the 7520 has it's own jitter reduction/removal circuitry.

trailer
30-08-2009, 07:21
Yes, yes, no idea.

It was through listening to familiar recordings over a period of time that I made my findings. The DIP in basic, non-upsampling mode, made a small difference. Everything seemed sharper/clearer. Setting the DIP to the upsample mode just brought everything into a more 3D wider soundstage whilst still retaining the detail.

technobear
30-08-2009, 21:17
My feet have finally touched the ground!

I had time this evening to perform a proper comparison between the Caiman and the Transporter!

Not sure how long I've had the Caiman now. It's 3 weeks I think. Anyway it has been playing 24/7 into phones and into the amp so it should be pretty well run in by now.

To begin with I struggled to hear any differences at all. I started with 'Private Investigations' by Dire Straits. It was only on the third time through that I could say that the Caiman was a touch better at resolving small details in the mix. But I might have been imagining it as the Caiman was also very slightly louder.

On to 'White Room' by Eric Clapton & Cream. I could not hear any differences.

On 'Principles Of Lust' by Enigma, the Caiman gave a slightly better resolved soundstage and voices stood out slightly more clearly from the mix. Again I played the track twice on each device to be sure.

On 'Tangram' by Gak Sato, I couldn't really tell them apart. Maybe the Caiman sounded a little more real, a bit more full but again it may just have been a little louder.

On 'Miss Clare Remembers' by Enya, the Caiman was clearly ahead on the rendition of the piano. The notes seemed fuller, richer and the decay of notes seemed to last longer. It sounded more like a real piano through the Caiman than through the Transporter.

On 'Zap' by Eric Johnson (from G3 live) again I could not tell them apart.

On 'Slow And Easy' by Whitesnake again I could not tell them apart.

This is an outstanding result for the Caiman. It matches the Transporter in every area and it would seem to have slightly higher resolution which makes acoustic instruments sound richer and more real and also creates a more sharply resolved soundstage.

I could not identify anything in the tracks I listened to where the Caiman was in any way inferior. Quite a surprise - a pleasant one I might add.

I also did not find the Caiman to be particularly intolerant of poor recordings. That may be because my amp and speakers are not particularly intolerant. You can hear the recording is bad for sure but you can still listen to it without wincing. The Caiman certainly is not bright or harsh so anyone finding it so needs to run it in some more or they have a synergy problem (or maybe their speakers aren't up to the job but that another story - 1 inch dome tweeters are evil, they need special treatment but most manufacturers don't bother).

When considering the above remarks, bear in mind that the Transporter is a very good transport. Results with other transports may vary.

I've also been using the Caiman for movies on the optical input. In those quiet suspenseful moments when the actors are practically whispering deep and meaningful things to each other before everything blows up, the sound is eerily real. Of course it helps if you have Zu Druids too :lol:

I'm presently unable to try the USB input as one of my PCs is caput so I'll come back on that one another time.

Gazjam
30-08-2009, 21:22
Excellent writeup Chris, the one I've been waiting for.

I knew running the SB3 into the Caiman produced something special, and I've felt that there SURELY couldnt be THAT much of an improvment using the Transporter?

Out of interest...
What digital interconnect are you using on your SB3?
*EDIT*
Just noriced the link to your kit, still using the Belden 1649a?

Are you using the stock Power supply etc etc?


Thanks,
Gary.

SteveW
30-08-2009, 21:28
Agreed, it sure doesn't hold back at times, great for well mastered material but can show up the worst in others. Can't blame the DAC for that though.

Something like Dire Straits - Brothers In Arms is just mesmerizing under the Caiman yet a bit of Motley Crue - Dr. Feelgood is almost unlistenable. Some would say anything which made Motley Crue unlistenable is a blessing :lol: and i would agree but they did make a killer single here and there. I would also say the Caiman really likes the White Stripes, it's really changed the soundstage for the better .....was kinda recessed with the 7520.

If you want to tame some of that sharpness you could do worse than trying the AD826 opamp, takes some of that edge off whilst not losing any detail.

Oh, that sounds like a way forward. Is it an easy thing to do? (for someone with with limited technical skills !)Seem to recall Stan posting advise...any chance of a link ?
thanks

Spur07
30-08-2009, 21:49
Nice work chris.

Just what I've been waiting for. Thanks for taking the time and effort - it's great to get reports like this. I've heard great things about the transporter. I guess on that basis the Caiman can't be far off a Lavry or Benchmark.

technobear
30-08-2009, 22:27
Excellent writeup Chris, the one I've been waiting for.

I knew running the SB3 into the Caiman produced something special, and I've felt that there SURELY couldnt be THAT much of an improvment using the Transporter?

Out of interest...
What digital interconnect are you using on your SB3?


Er... I don't own an SB3. I have a Transporter :scratch:

I am still using the Belden from Mark Grant Cables.

I am using the power supply that was supplied with the Caiman.

It would be interesting to have an SB3 here for a direct comparison.

Labarum
30-08-2009, 22:31
Er... I don't own an SB3. I have a Transporter . . . It would be interesting to have an SB3 here for a direct comparison.

Indeed it would. I am very pleased with the SB3 Caiman pairing.

To take the digital out from the Transporter and feed it to the Caiman and to find it at least as good is impressive. The Transporter is over £1000.