View Full Version : Any Digital Impressions of the Caiman yet?
Hi Stan,
I read the Caiman's booklet about headphone impedance, and I'm not sure I understood how it works...
It's written 1h-32ohms, 3h-64, 4-300 and 5h-600ohms : does this mean that at power on the Caiman checks the volume control and adapts itself ?
Thanks for explaining,
Hi Stan,
I read the Caiman's booklet about headphone impedance, and I'm not sure I understood how it works...
It's written 1h-32ohms, 3h-64, 4-300 and 5h-600ohms : does this mean that at power on the Caiman checks the volume control and adapts itself ?
Thanks for explaining,
I think that means at the those clock positions you have the corresponding impedance match.
StanleyB
12-10-2009, 10:30
No it doesn't. That's how it works. Unlike speakers in general, headphones come in an impedance range that covers a 20 to 1 ratio. i..e from 32 ohms to 600 ohms. So for a fixed amplification factor, the maximum gain will be reached at different level of the volume pot.
If anyone ever invents an automatic headphone impedance detector, or there is one out there, let me know. It would be very helpful.
Thank you for your quick answers. It's MUCH clearer now ! :)
If anyone ever invents an automatic headphone impedance detector, or there is one out there, let me know. It would be very helpful.
I believe the Graham Slee Solo headphone amp has such a feature but how it works i do not know :confused:
headphones come in an impedance range that covers a 20 to 1 ratio. i.e. from 32 ohms to 600 ohms.
You are lucky, Stan, it's only 20:1!
What impedance would the phones have that I used with the crystal set radio I built when I was a boy? Over 1K?
In the late 1970s I owned a pair of supposedly HiFi Headphones by Pioneer that had piezo-electric transducers - how would they load an amp?
StanleyB
12-10-2009, 10:58
I have no idea how they would load an amp Brian. Headphone amp design is not the same as power amp design. But I don't wish to get involved in discussions about that aspect of designing. There are numerous headphone orientated websites and forums that have far more and better info.
Are there any internal close-up photos of Caiman?
Think you'd have to buy one Lemon, theres a lot of Stans Competitors would like to get ther eyes on the internals of one.
No manufacturer publishes photos of this type as far as I know?
Gaz.
StanleyB
13-10-2009, 10:49
Are there any internal close-up photos of Caiman?
Hi Jack, have you considered designing your own instead of copying mine;)?
Hi Lemon,
Welcome to AOS :)
On your next visit could you please pop by the Welcome area and tell us what your proper first name is and also where you're from? A list of your system would also be appreciated. This is standard procedure for new members joining our forum, as AoS is a community of real people and not the usual 'faceless' Internet message board one normally encounters.
Thanks in advance! :cool:
Marco.
Well mine arrived today... after ordering yesterday - top service Stan!!
Initial impressions are - physically, a well made unit, it's heavy for it's size.
So I went to plug it in to my Sony 303 ES and discovered I'd made a schoolboy error. I'd confabulated my ES with a Denon I've got in my edit suite and thought that the ES had a co-ax output. It doesn't - toslink only. So now either my loverly cable courtesy of Mike Homar or the Sony is at the moment redundant! :doh:
So I hooked up the Denon in place of the Sony and spun a disc. Now I know that the Caiman requires a significant burn-in, but even initially I can tell there's more info getting through! Bass slam and dynamics were noticeably improved. I've now got the CD on repeat to aid burn-in and I'll give it a proper go later.
Leaves me with a conundrum though... I'll have to test the ES via TOSlink and compare with the Denon via co-ax and see what wins... any ideas?
Jason
StanleyB
13-10-2009, 12:30
A bit of an unfair competition that. You really need something like a Naim or Linn if you are looking for a fair enough shoot out with the Caiman:).
Hi,
I´m new here. Bought a TC-7510 last year (still happy) and discovered this thread only recently.
Last year I got also new DIY LS (kind of Wilson Watt/Puppy lookalike combination with Thiel ceramic units and HiVi-research bass unit). Right now I´m thinking about replacing my old Marantz PM80mk2 integrated (OK for small jazz and acoustic bands, but not enough power with dynamic orchestral music & rock) with a power amplifier (and go directly into it from the Beresford).
Still hesitating between the new Rotel RB1572 or using DIY HYPEX UD modules. I like to switch over to class D for 2 reasons: 1. climate change and 2. I like the sound of my Nuforce Icon in one of my smaller systems.
What would the best way to go: first change the amplification and then bring the Caiman in, or the other way around. I can always use the 7510 in a smaller system.
A bit of an unfair competition that. You really need something like a Naim or Linn if you are looking for a fair enough shoot out with the Caiman:).
Stan, if you were referring to my post I mean comparing the TOSlink input of the Sony to the Denon's co-ax, both via the Caiman, to see which transport is better.
On that note, do individual inputs require burn-in? If I run the Caiman for say 200 hours via co-ax, will the TOSlink input need any 'bedding in' to give of it's best?
Jason
ZebuTheOxen
13-10-2009, 18:17
The burn-in is the capacitors settling down to their long term levels. Nothing else as far as I know?
This year Signal Path introduced the peach tree nova, which is an integrated amp + DAC combi (http://www.signalpathint.com/index.php/Nova/Introducing-Nova.html). It got some rave reviews. The best part of it seems to be the Sabre Reference DAC and the preamp.
I asked the people of Signal Path if they planned to introduce also a DAC-preamp combi only and they told me that this would indeed happen (first half of 2010). Plus, they are going to use the new SABRE32 Reference audio DAC for it, which seems to be even better than the one used in the nova.
My question for Stan is:
would using the SABRE32 Reference audio DAC instead of the WM8716 DAC in the Caiman be an improvement? Are you planning to give it a try in further development plans?
¨The SABRE32 Reference audio DAC series is the world’s highest performance 32-bit audio DAC solution targeted for consumer applications such as Blu-ray player, audio pre-amplifier, A/V receiver and professional applications such as recording systems, mixer consoles and digital audio workstations. With ESS patented 32-bit Hyperstream™ DAC architecture and Time Domain Jitter Eliminator, the SABRE32 Reference Stereo DAC delivers an unprecedented DNR of up to 135dB and THD+N of -120dB, the industry’s highest performance level that will satisfy the most demanding audio enthusiasts.¨
ES9018 SABRE32 Reference 32-bit 8-Channel Audio DAC, 64LQFP, DNR 135 (mono) and 129 (8ch), THD -120
ES9012 SABRE32 Reference 32-bit Stereo Audio DAC, 64LQFP, DNR 133, THD -120
Here is the pdf with more information: http://www.esstech.com/PDF/Sabre32%20DAC%20PF%20081217.pdf
http://www.esstech.com/index.php?p=products_DAC
StanleyB
14-10-2009, 10:33
My question for Stan is:
would using the SABRE32 Reference audio DAC instead of the WM8716 DAC in the Caiman be an improvement? Are you planning to give it a try in further development plans?
In 64LQFP package? No way. Far too complex. A good audio DAC chip should not have more than 28 pins, otherwise the PCB becomes far too complex and difficult to keep stable.
In 64LQFP package? No way. Far too complex. A good audio DAC chip should not have more than 28 pins, otherwise the PCB becomes far too complex and difficult to keep stable.
I heard a lot of manufacturers of cd- and blueray-players and AV-receivers are going to use these dac´s next year. Is it not too complicated for them then?
StanleyB
14-10-2009, 10:55
I'll go my way, and they can go theirs:).
I heard a lot of manufacturers of cd- and blueray-players and AV-receivers are going to use these dac´s next year. Is it not too complicated for them then?
The Sabres are very high performing chips , its far more complicated and very expensive to get the best out of them, have a look on the diy section, you can see the work involved I've been doing to improve a pair of diy versions, first one using ES9008 and later on in the thread the newer ES9018 which so far performs excellently BUT even as a diy project would cost many times more than the Caiman dac , its not even cased up yet!
The much cheaper Sabre chips like ES9006 will be mainly used in DVD players etc (the current Peachtree dac uses it too) , only ready built commercial unit I know of to be using the highest spec ES9018 is the Moon 750D
roscoeiii
14-10-2009, 19:18
Leo,
Since you seem to have a great deal of experience with Sabre based DACs and the Caiman, can you give us an idea of how the differences in the sound in these chips that you've observed. Of course op-amps, circuit architecture, etc are going to play a significant role here as well but we'll have to just accept that as inevitable. Nevertheless, I'd be interested in what you see as the strengths and weaknesses of each DAC chip.
technobear
14-10-2009, 21:51
Heads up!
There's a chap over on the Wigwam selling a brand new Caiman currently at £199 delivered (in the UK).
Grab it quick!
StanleyB
15-10-2009, 06:53
Well I can't help it that the Caiman gives the impression that if £200 DACs are that good, more expensive ones are even better:). It does imprint in my mind however that there is a market for a £1000 DAC from me. I just need to find an expensive looking case and some expensive caps:scratch:.
Well I can't help it that the Caiman gives the impression that if £200 DACs are that good, more expensive ones are even better:). It does imprint in my mind however that there is a market for a £1000 DAC from me. I just need to find an expensive looking case and some expensive caps:scratch:.
a special badge and a few customers with plenty of dosh! :lolsign:
Regards
All you need, Stan, is a small back street workshop that can mill you a few smart aluminium cases out of solid blocks. Well, if Apple can do it . . .
Heads up!
There's a chap over on the Wigwam selling a brand new Caiman currently at £199 delivered (in the UK).
Grab it quick!
:gig:had to go, I guess
oceanobsession
16-10-2009, 18:12
I have been looking for a dac myself as my only source from my pc to go
with these,
1. avi 2000 series pre
2. avi 2000 series monoblocks
3. shahinian arcs 1993
4. sb3
After reading many forums ive come to the conclusion that there seems to be
many contenders but these seem to be the favorite for most
1. benchmark dac 1
2. lavry da 10
3. beresford
4. MF V-Dac
5. twisted pair audio buffalo dac
6. satch dac
7. promitheus dac
8. ciaudio VDA-2 DAC
9. Apogee Mini DAC
10 Nos dac ebay
Any recomendations on the list cheers ocean
There are surely other dacs around... anyway.
If I had to give an adjective to some, it would be, subjectively :
1. Stiff
2. Neutral - smooth
3. [Caiman] Honest - smooth
4. Smooth
5. -
6. -
7. -
8. -
9. Neutral - smooth
10. (don't like at all)
Honest>smooth>neutral>stiff>harch my favorites being from honest to smooth
You can very well include used NorthStar192 and PSAudio dacs (both honest-smooth)
PS: this is the Caiman thread, so, I don't want to get into details about other dacs in it.
oceanobsession
16-10-2009, 18:43
There are surely other dacs around... anyway.
If I had to give an adjective to some, it would be, subjectively :
1. Stiff
2. Neutral - smooth
3. Honest - smooth
4. Smooth
5. -
6. -
7. -
8. -
9. Neutral - smooth
10. (don't like at all)
Honest>smooth>neutral>stiff>harch my favorites being from honest to smooth
You can very well include used NorthStar192 and PSAudio dacs (both honest-smooth)
cheers for all youre help im thinking caiman cause you can play with the opamps, where would you put the sb3 with analoug out to the pre using the
built in dac cheers ocean
cheers for all youre help im thinking caiman cause you can play with the opamps, where would you put the sb3 with analoug out to the pre using the
built in dac cheers ocean
SB3 - Neutral (but simplifying)
oceanobsession
16-10-2009, 19:04
SB3 - Neutral (but simplifying)
And do you think paying lots more money gets you more detail or just hype
cheers ocean
StanleyB
16-10-2009, 19:06
And do you think paying lots more money gets you more detail or just hype
Pay me lots more money and I'll give you more detail. Honest:).
And do you think paying lots more money gets you more detail or just hype
cheers ocean
Lots ? What do you mean ?
IMHO, my dac should never cost more than 20% of my system's value. And I wouldn't buy one if I had a system that costed less than 1000€.
Now, if you mean "is there a direct ratio between added value and added subjective quality", I would say no.
The Caiman is a very good example for this. ;) (little money, lots of qualities)
Chippy_boy
16-10-2009, 20:14
I think it (the Caiman) is a great DAC for £200. It's probably a great DAC were it £500. But I have to say I bought a Benchmark DAC1 HDR recently and imho it is significantly better than the Caiman (sound-wide. Of course it's also better facilities-wise).
You can't expect miracles really.
roscoeiii
16-10-2009, 20:24
oceanobsession,
Also, it's worth noting that many of the comments on this thread are about the Caiman without the Caiman specific power supply (which got held up due to the slowness of regulatory approval). New units are now being shipped with the new power supply. And those of us that got the Caiman with the 7520 power supply are now able to upgrade to the new power supply.
My power supply just arrived today and I will probably wait a bit to comment on it, giving it time to break in. But you can see some impressions of the Caiman with the new power supply (aka PSU) on some of the more recent posts in this forum, and in the Caiman PSU forum.
Good luck in your DAC search. I've found the Caiman to be an excellent deal, and look forward to dipping my toe into op-amp swapping when I have the time (and probably after the warranty has expired).
But as for a preview of my feelings about the new PSU...:gig:
The Caiman and the Benchmark HDR use the same opamps ?
StanleyB
16-10-2009, 22:54
I read that the DAC1 uses the same opamps as the TC-7520.
Just shows how opinions vary in this hobby, I tried a Dac1 and didn't really rate it, I wouldn't say its significantly better than the Caiman
Just shows how opinions vary in this hobby, I tried a Dac1 and didn't really rate it, I wouldn't say its significantly better than the Caiman
Well, imho, it's even significantly worse, considering the price. But Chippy was talking about the HDR, which is another design alltogether (if I understood properly).
StanleyB
17-10-2009, 06:41
It's all a question of taste. A DAC1 dealer loaned me a a HDR to compare against the Caiman and I found the HDR inferior in the bass region, whilst having an exaggerated top end. As for expectation of miracles: on a 1 to 7 price ration, it is saying something when we are comparing the two. That doesn't mean that I can't do better. It's a case a perspective, and budget of the potential customers. This side of £1000 you'll be hard pressed to find anything that can convincingly match the Caiman, let alone out perform it. I reckon that for another £200 I could develop the perfect DAC, but most customers budget has a cut off point of £200. The more expensive the product is, the lower the sales are.
Covenant
17-10-2009, 08:03
It's all a question of taste. A DAC1 dealer loaned me a a HDR to compare against the Caiman and I found the HDR inferior in the bass region, whilst having an exaggerated top end. As for expectation of miracles: on a 1 to 7 price ration, it is saying something when we are comparing the two. That doesn't mean that I can't do better. It's a case a perspective, and budget of the potential customers. This side of £1000 you'll be hard pressed to find anything that can convincingly match the Caiman, let alone out perform it. I reckon that for another £200 I could develop the perfect DAC, but most customers budget has a cut off point of £200. The more expensive the product is, the lower the sales are.
Doesn't that mean Stan that you should develop other products? A Beresford amplifier would be on my christmas wish list!
StanleyB
17-10-2009, 08:24
Hi Jerry, I only started my own business about three years ago, so it will take time to add more items. I did develop a small amp using the Tripath chip. JLAND100 actually saw it. But Tripath folded and I lost my source for the chips:(. My German distributor has been selling the few that we built. Look for TC-820 on www.beresford.de . I didn't bring it into the UK since we only managed to make 200 pieces before the bad news with the chips got to us.
Covenant
17-10-2009, 08:49
Hi Jerry, I only started my own business about three years ago, so it will take time to add more items. I did develop a small amp using the Tripath chip. JLAND100 actually saw it. But Tripath folded and I lost my source for the chips:(. My German distributor has been selling the few that we built. Look for TC-820 on www.beresford.de . I didn't bring it into the UK since we only managed to make 200 pieces before the bad news with the chips got to us.
Thats really interesting Stan. I seem to remember you commenting unfavourably once about Class D amplification but it may have been that you think its often badly implemented. A pair of Beresford monoblock power amps would be a dream come true.
An absolutely straightforward audio power amp in a simple box would match well with a Caiman or 7520. Those who have already abandoned analogue sources would need nothing else. I guess next to the power supply components and the case is the most expensive bit, but a cheap black brick to hide in some convenient corner would be domestically acceptable.
For me - at least 70w and 100w would be better. I have looked at kits to throw in any old box, but you never know what you are buying.
Alternative view: where does this take you?
http://www.m-audio.ca/products/en_ca/StudiophileDSM1.html
technobear
17-10-2009, 10:29
Cheap brick power amps that are worthy of the Caiman? :scratch:
One might consider:
Rotel RB-06
Audiolab 8000P
I too have looked at DIYing something - the BK modules look interesting - but by the time you have sourced a nice case and appropriate modules and power suppllies you end up very close to the retail price of the above two.
The Rotel would be my choice. Plenty of reports of problems with the chinese-built Audiolabs.
Cheap brick power amps that are worthy of the Caiman? :scratch:
The 'cheap' referred to the case. no Standac needs a fancy case to prove its worth, and nor would a matching power amp, all the more so because it could be hidden.
Well, imho, it's even significantly worse, considering the price. But Chippy was talking about the HDR, which is another design alltogether (if I understood properly).
The one I heard was the pre amp version, I was told the actual dac part is the same, If spending this sort of money on a dac I choose diy mainly because I know the higher expense goes on the parts which matter to me
I know for 200 quid I'd be struggling to build something to better the Caiman but for the Dac1 price makes things a lot different;)
What Hi-fi give the Caiman 5 Stars in their First Test in the Awards edition which I got today - well done Stan (and presumably that was a pre-PSU model they tested too?)
StanleyB
19-10-2009, 12:51
What Hi-fi give the Caiman 5 Stars in their First Test in the Awards edition which I got today - well done Stan (and presumably that was a pre-PSU model they tested too?)
They were the very first people to get a Caiman power supply. I reckon I better rush out and get a copy:).
They were the very first people to get a Caiman power supply. I reckon I better rush out and get a copy:).
Could we have a hard copy of the test, somewhere (for these not in the UK?) ;)
steveinspain
19-10-2009, 13:18
Hmm - I'd like to see it too, if anyone can post it up here..
Here we go
http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu259/Alex_Steel1969/hifi/IMG_2189_1.jpg
steveinspain
19-10-2009, 14:09
Thanks Alex !
Much appreciated
No probs - just realised its a bit blurred - so don't panic anyone, you don't need to go to Specsavers!
StanleyB
19-10-2009, 15:47
Maybe time to tackle that comment about the reduced foot tapping experience:scratch:. I'll see if I can sort that out in an easy way.
I hate when critics talk about "system-matching" when they review dacs. :steam:
It's absurd, I don't even dare to imagine what they're talking about...:(
I hate when critics talk about "system-matching" when they review dacs. :steam:
It's absurd, I don't even dare to imagine what they're talking about...:(
It's the "damning with faint praise" aspect of the review, Themis. It's a budget product so only match it to other budget products.
They cannot unequivocally recommend a Standac because it's from a small firm that will not pay them to advertise; and they must reserve their best words for top price goods from companies that do pay them to advertise.
(Labarum is always a cynic)
Neverthless, Stan, it's an excellent review of a fine product.
Still, they claim "fitting into a price- and tonally-appropriate system..."
I understand the "Price-" stuff : they want to keep some illusions still alive.
... but the "tonally-appropriate" what the heck can it be ? :o
Themis, we don''t have tone controls any more. We just chose cables with the right capacitance and inductance to manage the EQ.
(Said I was a cynic!)
Tonally appropriate?
Neverthless, Stan, it's an excellent review of a fine product.
Agreed!
It maybe budget priced but I think most would agree that it would take something over three times its retail price to better it, some then may feel the performance boost would not be worth the expense.
Themis, we don''t have tone controls any more. We just chose cables with the right capacitance and inductance to manage the EQ.
(Said I was a cynic!)
Tonally appropriate?
:doh:
(no, I won't comment further ! :lol: )
Nice One !!! I got mine about four weeks ago and am very pleased with it.
I use it via USB to my laptop and into a valve amp. Just need to workout how to stream (maybe via a squuebox) without the computor being powered on.
steveinspain
19-10-2009, 20:33
Terry - A total beginner here, but it seems that the squeezebox touch might be the thing, as it works with a USB hard drive, so no need for the pc to be on, just a hard drive in a caddy from what I understand..
Not yet available, but plenty of chat about them on the internet...
Terry - A total beginner here, but it seems that the squeezebox touch might be the thing, as it works with a USB hard drive, so no need for the pc to be on, just a hard drive in a caddy from what I understand..
Not yet available, but plenty of chat about them on the internet...
True. ;)
I hate when critics talk about "system-matching" when they review dacs
Why? A hi-fi system is essentially synergistic and relies on all its components gelling together. Why exclude the DAC?
Terry - A total beginner here, but it seems that the squeezebox touch might be the thing, as it works with a USB hard drive, so no need for the pc to be on, just a hard drive in a caddy from what I understand..
Not yet available, but plenty of chat about them on the internet...
Great info there Steve - Thanks a lot !! This seems to be exatcly what i have been waiting for. Will be seeking more info on this one.
steveinspain
20-10-2009, 05:47
Hah !
Only been a member here for about 2 weeks and already I am qualified to offer a tiny bit of advice AND it seems to have been good !
(also spent way too much as I have already bought a Caiman and some headphones..)
Glad to have been able to help Terry - I too am keeping my eyes well peeled for more info on this.
Peter Stockwell
20-10-2009, 07:39
Great info there Steve - Thanks a lot !! This seems to be exatcly what i have been waiting for. Will be seeking more info on this one.
Officially available from logitech since 15/10/2009
The Squeezebox Classic streams internet radio without the PC being switched on. I have found that I am listening to the radio more than Cd's at the moment. Some really great Jazz stations available and I tend to use the higher bitrate ones as they sound really good. SB / Caiman / A260 / Speakers - what more does a man need!
Regards
Chris
technobear
20-10-2009, 08:44
Officially available from logitech since 15/10/2009
The Logitech Squeezebox Touch is currently estimated to be available on December 1st.
This date is dependent on finishing the software in time.
Why? A hi-fi system is essentially synergistic and relies on all its components gelling together. Why exclude the DAC?
Well, a dac's role in a system is mainly neutral. Far more neutral than an amp, a preamp, a speaker, an amp/speaker relation, a room, a listening position, a room/listening position relation, a speaker/room placement, and so on.
As regards to all that, the "synergistic" part of the dac in the system represents less than -about- 1% of the overall "tonal color" of the system.
So, when I need to tune my system's tonal balance, choosing a dac, seems to me an inappropriate solution to a real problem. ;)
Consequently, if I don't have a "tonal problem" to solve, then, again, whatever the dac it won't really change anything. So, the "tonally appropriate" phrase used in the review sounds inappropriate.
It's as if they were saying that this dac should have an "ac-outlet-appropriate" association...
I don't mean that all-dacs-sound-the-same, far from that. I mean that their differences are not "tonal" ones.
apmusson
20-10-2009, 09:59
Well done Stan.
Peter Stockwell
20-10-2009, 11:56
The Logitech Squeezebox Touch is currently estimated to be available on December 1st.
This date is dependent on finishing the software in time.
Yes, I must have misunderstood the logitech website, it looked like I could order one, when I looked last thursday. I see on amazon.com that it's status is pre-order.
Shanedudddy2
21-10-2009, 10:00
Well, a dac's role in a system is mainly neutral. Far more neutral than an amp, a preamp, a speaker, an amp/speaker relation, a room, a listening position, a room/listening position relation, a speaker/room placement, and so on.
As regards to all that, the "synergistic" part of the dac in the system represents less than -about- 1% of the overall "tonal color" of the system.
The DAC is a preamp as well. :/
Also my Caimen is on its way :D, do you guys think I`ll notice much improvement over the 7520 that I currently have, it is modded mind you.
I don't mean that all-dacs-sound-the-same, far from that. I mean that their differences are not "tonal" ones.
A DAC is a source component, just like a CD player, tuner or turntable. If you accept that a CD player is synergistic and requires careful matching to a system - I do and so do most hi-fi professionals - then a DAC is no less so. it isn't just tonal quality, it's micro- and macro-dynamics, frequency extension, noise, transparency and a whole raft of other parameters that are hard to measure but easily heard.
Now, you can buy a tonally fairly neutral DAC like the Beresford and build a system around it, but you must still carefully match the whole to the sound you prefer.
ZebuTheOxen
21-10-2009, 13:02
The DAC is a preamp as well. :/
Also my Caimen is on its way :D, do you guys think I`ll notice much improvement over the 7520 that I currently have, it is modded mind you.
You will certainly notice an improvement in clarity. Depending on the source material, this can be a good or a bad thing.
twelvebears
21-10-2009, 20:19
Well done Stan!
You are, in the words of the 60s NASA astronauts, a steely eyed missile man. :smoking:
-deleted-
Bummer, my slow DSL.
Maybe time to tackle that comment about the reduced foot tapping experience:scratch:. I'll see if I can sort that out in an easy way.
There's no need to do so, Stan.
I guess the Caiman is doing very very fine in the sound department.
I'm twitching and wobbling my Elvis legs everytime I play music thru your DAC.
Those WHF people are in dire need for more work outs at the gym.
C'mon....move your lethargic legs.
ZebuTheOxen
22-10-2009, 08:26
The 36k mod will probably find it's way into the next iteration of the Caiman.
I was sat listening to Glamour Of The Kill's EP last night and was completely away with the fairies for the duration. Good stuff.
Shanedudddy2
26-10-2009, 01:50
Does the 36k mod make a significant improvement over the base caimen than it does with the 7520??
I tried it on the 7520 and did not like it at all, just made the monotonic bass worse and more prominant.
ZebuTheOxen
26-10-2009, 10:21
The Caiman has a different DAC chip entirely, plus some other different circuitry.
The 7520 has different capacitors already in place (MCL 5 / 6).
Zebu,
other circuitry apart from the analogue output stage
(Where the mlc5/6 caps are?)
ZebuTheOxen
26-10-2009, 14:00
On the 7520? Whatever is related to the power that needs modding for the Caiman PSU to work.
I have no idea besides that! Presumably some changes to make the 4562 perform better?
Uh huh.
Thanks for that! ;)
daveyboy
26-10-2009, 17:43
Having read many peoples views who have heard both, it seems apparent that the Dac Magic has more bass weight which some people deem overblown, others love it. I think that this was a very positive review from what hi fi though so well done. I still haven't bought one yet and the creeping price is putting me off at the moment. I know it's to do with the tumbling exchange prices so it's not a dig but will need to get my hands on one soon!
Having measured my system as flat down to 20Hz (notwithstanding the usual bass hump at the room resonance), I can assure you that Stan has tuned the Caiman just right - plenty of detailed bass down to subsonics, neither too much nor too little. I have some organ recordings using 64ft pipes and the system reproduces their trouser-flapping subsonics quite impressively.
Agreed. Stan's Caiman is one of the best sounding DAC's around and I also think the bass is spot on through my old JM Labs 926 floorstanders.
Internet radio via Squeezebox playing the blues through Stan's Caiman is one of the great joys in life!
Regards
Chris
Those not happy with the 36k+100nf mod, what type of capacitor you using? if your using a film type (polyester or polypropylene) may want to try ceramic instead, I often find certain types of film caps add a muddiness to base, they also tend to be much more inductive.
This is not to say a ceramic WILL sound better, some hate the things as most tend to be ringy, its just a thought it maybe worth a try and only costs pence
I tend to try as many alternatives as possible just incase:mental:
Gentle Giant
26-10-2009, 22:48
Thanks for bringing me so much ear candy Stan
:mex:
After a few :cool: tonight with some nice music I got sentimental and have to say, I love u man.
Agreed. Stan's Caiman is one of the best sounding DAC's around and I also think the bass is spot on through my old JM Labs 926 floorstanders.
Internet radio via Squeezebox playing the blues through Stan's Caiman is one of the great joys in life!
Regards
Chris
Couldn't agree more with everyone else here that Caiman is one of the best sounding DACs around. And I'm still keeping the old 6/4 as well.
Bass is spot on through my Epos M12.2, and thunderous coming out of the Audio Technica ATH-50 headphone. A bit more bass, it would be overkilled via the phones already I reckon.
the Audio Technica ATH-50 headphone
Great headphones ! ;)
steveinspain
03-11-2009, 14:16
Just want to let the world know my Caiman has arrived, as have some slightly used HD650 phones.
Guess who will be busy for a little while !
Many thanks to all who have got me here, and especially to Stan for his patience with me.
Got to go - stuff to listen to...
Stratmangler
03-11-2009, 14:19
Just want to let the world know my Caiman has arrived, as have some slightly used HD650 phones.
Guess who will be busy for a little while !
Many thanks to all who have got me here, and especially to Stan for his patience with me.
Got to go - stuff to listen to...
I imagine that you're one very happy bunny Steve.
Enjoy your new toys.
Chris:)
Hi Steve,
You are in for a treat!
Regards
Chris
steveinspain
03-11-2009, 14:28
Happy especially as they both arrived before the credit card bill..!
Already, even 5 tracks in I am impressed !
Stratmangler
03-11-2009, 14:35
Happy especially as they both arrived before the credit card bill..!
Already, even 5 tracks in I am impressed !
In a few weeks you'll be gobsmacked ! By the music, I mean.
Chris:)
In a few weeks you'll be gobsmacked ! By the music, I mean.
I was dubious at the first mention of 200 hours burn in time but I shouldn't have doubted Stan - it gets so much better the more you use it, and I would advocate leaving it running with music on loop, or TV or whatever to try and speed up the process - if it can be running 24/7 then it should sound much better a week tomorrow...
What are you running it connected to (i.e. sources, and cables) in the end?
Oh, and most importantly, enjoy!
steveinspain
03-11-2009, 19:42
I have left it connected to the laptop all day, and shall for the next few days, with it playing music on repeat.
I plan to connect it to the main pc soon via one of Stans digital cables but also have one of Mike Homers cables coming at some stage. I will also connect it up to my iRiver H140 at some stage, as it has a digital out. For now, I will just get used to listening via headphones - I currently have an abcess above a tooth, so am suffering slightly, and my hearing is affected, so no judgments will be made. The advantege of having used headphones is that they need no burn-in, so I can play it with volume turned down pretty much all night. So far all I have been listening to is new music from a cover-mounted magazine cd, so it is all new.
My biggest impressions so far is how small the Caiman is and how comfy and warm the phones are - no cold ears this winter !
Each input needs running in separately, by the way, so only 790 hours to go! ;)
Covenant
22-11-2009, 16:17
Just a suggestion to Stan for the next model. What about fitting a lightspeed attenuator rather than a volume pot? Cheap and easy to produce yet capable of outstanding performance. Seems to fit in with your design ethos Stan.
StanleyB
22-11-2009, 16:24
Just a suggestion to Stan for the next model. What about fitting a lightspeed attenuator rather than a volume pot? Cheap and easy to produce yet capable of outstanding performance.
I am looking at attenuating the audio signal in the digital domain.
I am looking at attenuating the audio signal in the digital domain.It will be hard to keep a good S/N ratio with digital attenuation, no ?
Well, I've had mine for a few weeks now, though I've been working away so not using it as much as I'd've liked. Impressions after a thorough burn in (left on repeat for a good while) are good, though it's not the smack around the chops I expected, its more subtle and profound than that. I'm aware of more space and detail surrounding every element, but this has the sometimes curious effect of making you re-appraise tracks you thought you knew well, almost as if theyve been re-mixed. It has a very analogue quality too, making the CD much more organic sounding in the way good vinyl is. Instrumental timbre is much more faithful too, there's some tracks that really stand out in terms of suddenly realising 'Hah, that's a digital piano' as opposed to a real one, or hearing the difference in guitar being played. Lots of subtle detail in voices too, much more of a sense of being 'in the room'
So overall first impressions are good, I think the Caiman has made a very positive addition to my system...
:gig:
Jason
StanleyB
22-11-2009, 17:30
It will be hard to keep a good S/N ratio with digital attenuation, no ?
Dunno till I have tried and listened.
Dunno till I have tried and listened.
On the Squeezebox/Transporter (that use digital attenuation) it is clearly audible. They use 24bit for that, but, still, it is audible at moderate/high attenuation levels. As a result I know nobody who uses it (the digital attenuation) on them.
I made a test the other day plugging the dac directly with the fixed output into a power amp and using the Squeezebox's digital attenuation : it was disastrous.
The only way to make it bearable was to plug it into a variable input of the power amp (it was a NAD C272 with a variable input), then reduce the power's input level while having no attenuation, to an average listening level. Then use the digital attenuation to lower a bit. (I'm not sure I'm clear)
But, of course, you have to try it by yourself. ;)
Attenuation might not be as bad if using the dac chip, of course the only way to know is by trying it
I'm not sure the way its done with the Wolfson chip yet, some chips do it much better than others.
Stratmangler
22-11-2009, 19:21
On the Squeezebox/Transporter (that use digital attenuation) it is clearly audible. They use 24bit for that, but, still, it is audible at moderate/high attenuation levels. As a result I know nobody who uses it (the digital attenuation) on them.
I made a test the other day plugging the dac directly with the fixed output into a power amp and using the Squeezebox's digital attenuation : it was disastrous.
The only way to make it bearable was to plug it into a variable input of the power amp (it was a NAD C272 with a variable input), then reduce the power's input level while having no attenuation, to an average listening level. Then use the digital attenuation to lower a bit. (I'm not sure I'm clear)
But, of course, you have to try it by yourself. ;)
Hi Dimitri
I too find that the digital attenuation on the Squeezebox is not acceptable - my impression is that it sucks all the life out of the music.
I have recently started using just the power amp of my NAD C320 BEE, with my modded TC7510 as a preamp and things sound absolutely fantastic.
I'd like to see a Beresford DAC with a couple of analogue line inputs and a decent motorised pot fitted - obviously with a remote control for volume control duties.
Chris:)
Peter Galbavy
22-11-2009, 19:53
I too find that the digital attenuation on the Squeezebox is not acceptable - my impression is that it sucks all the life out of the music.
"me too"
I ran with my SB3 directly into a pair of Audiolab 8000M's and I was happy - happy until I plugged the SB3 into a pre-amp and set the output to 100%. Cor. Yep, the digital volume in the SB3 is aweful comparatively...
Covenant
22-11-2009, 21:16
Hmmm, I've just tried disabling the SB3 digital volume and the difference is slight in my system. The convenience factor means I will probably change it back.
My system must not be as revealing as yours :violin:
Hmmm, I've just tried disabling the SB3 digital volume and the difference is slight in my system. The convenience factor means I will probably change it back.
My system must not be as revealing as yours :violin:
Not sure. The first 30-40% don't have any effect.
Listen to the SB at 10%, you will see. ;)
Covenant
23-11-2009, 11:15
Oh right. I normally have the volume on the SB3 at about 90% and adjust it up and down from there. I can imagine if you have it set considerably lower you will seriously degrade the quality.
macjager
24-11-2009, 04:07
odd title but there is madness to my method;)
I have been burning in the Caiman since Saturday, using my Mac to the Caiman via the toslink. I have an app called iWOW by SRS labs and when turned on the sound is very rich with lots of detail. When off, boy, music sounds crappy. I plan on trying it via a 3.5 to RCA (once i can find it) and compare the sound that way. Has anyone else tried this app, as it really seems to make a difference in the sound - running iTunes from my MacBook Pro to the Caiman to the Cayin 88T to my Allison IIs
macjager
24-11-2009, 04:32
Ok
did the A/B test...very interesting, the 3.5 into RCA from the Mac has a lot less presence than the toslink via the Caiman. When you turn on the iWOW while using the 3.5 it boosts the sound but when you do the same with the toslink via the Caiman...huge increase in sound fullness.
So what have we learned, the Mac through the Caiman sounds better than from the Mac directly to the Cayin, and using iWOW adds a fullness that is much more noticeable...
the iWOW app is aval for both Mac and PC...and no, I have no affiliation with SRS - except they have some of my money for their app:lol:
Shanedudddy2
24-11-2009, 04:48
Yes, I`ve tried SRS Labs before and I freaking hate it...it sound terrible, seriously.
Best sound I`ve gotten is through winamp output by ASIO plugin.
Hello!
I'm a proud new Caiman owner and I'm still burnin' it in. i'm Currently using the Caiman as a preamp to my Nad C355Bee. It sounds fantastic so far, but I'm expecting the sound to become even better in time. Under 50h so far:)
therockst4r
28-11-2009, 21:33
I just started modding my Caiman. I replaced the opamps with two THS4032CD opamps and replaced a lot of the caps with highend panasonic caps. The result is more detailed sound, better imaging, and more controlled bass. With a little more work on replacing the caps and lowering the 11mhz noise I think this will be the best DAC that I have ever heard.
Shanedudddy2
29-11-2009, 01:59
Just curious what other DAC's have you heard?
Plan to do some extensive mod work myself :D
Its real good to see things finally progressing from simple opamp changes now.
The more information we have about extensive modding on the caiman the better!
Did I read on another thread that Stan is working on a remote digital volume control for his DACs. With suitable active studio monitors such a setup could be an AVI ADM9.1 killer.
Has anyone experimented with Active Studio Monitors driven directly from a Caiman?
therockst4r
30-11-2009, 07:02
Just curious what other DAC's have you heard?
Plan to do some extensive mod work myself :D
Its real good to see things finally progressing from simple opamp changes now.
The more information we have about extensive modding on the caiman the better!
I have used a Dac1, a DacMagic, a custom DIY DAC, and a Wavelength Brick V2. I am still working on this DAC, so I will keep you posted. Currently I plan on swapping out some of the panasonic caps for blackgate or elna caps.
Stratmangler
03-12-2009, 10:20
My Caiman has just landed, and I like what I hear from the off.
Immediately I can hear greater resolution than I get from my modded 7510.
It should be burned in by the end of the year;)
Thanks again Stan
Chris:)
Stratmangler
03-12-2009, 10:47
Normally I would not comment further on the sound of the Caiman for at least a month, but I can't contain myself any longer.
Part of the increase in resolution is more subtle than tone and acoustics/reverberation (although they're very important) - it's to do with meter, closely related to the beat, but has more to do with the way musicians play around the beat.
And I already have a greater sense of real musicians playing real instruments because of the increased sense of meter I get from the Caiman.
I think I'm going to be burning midnight oil for some time to come.
Chris:)
it's to do with meter, closely related to the beat, but has more to do with the way musicians play around the beat.
I agree the Caiman has very good resolution and handles reverberation, decay and ambience (recording space acoustics) very well because of that; but I have great difficulty in understanding what you say about meter, beat and rubato - that remains the same no matter what the quality of the replay chain.
But then I am deeply sceptical of PRAT - Pace, Rhythm and Timing - and all the subjectivism that goes with it.
The Caiman does what it does because the chips do their job accurately and Stan has the supporting circuitry right.
Rubato? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubato
therockst4r
03-12-2009, 15:05
One interesting thing that I gained from my mods to this DAC was that the bass extension became a little more powerful, which of course exposed a problem area in my room's acoustics, so yet again I am foaming up my walls. I am not complaining though.
Psion770
03-12-2009, 19:43
Probably because they are too busy listening to music!!!!
At long last having recieved my Caiman over three weeks ago I can only tell you how pleasd I am with i'ts perfomance - so far because of an injury I have only been able to play it on my headpohnes where it has been powered from my lap top - the results are nothing short of stunning.
I have two sets of head phone some Bose Quiet Comfort 2's which are OK a misguided present from my good lady but they are comfortable and a pair of Shure 530's at a price I wouldn't dare tell her- Extended listening periods over.
When i first theard the unit I was amazed the sound stage even with the Bose phones was huge the sound seemed a little bright but the definition was superb and I was hearing subtleties I had never heard before. On classical works especially vocals again I was really pleased - however was I listening to my equipment or the content??
The diferrences were very marked - extended listening the brightness has gone but the space and dimensionality is still there - I can follow all the various instruments and am discovering that layering effect people refer too the Shures always were a revelation as headphones even with the Ipod but the thing that still amazes me is the quality over headphones, considering I have to date been using my computer Itunes abd the basic the Appleloss less format which has its limitations any way.
When I get better I am going to record some CD's using Exact Audio Copy software to see if I can hear the diference.
In have an old Meridian 206B transport when health improves I am going to use the DAC with that I have a Meridian 500 transport and 563 Dac but from memory even using headphones I cant remember the holographic presentation I now seem to be enjoying and I wonder how much I would need to spend on speakers and amplification to enjoy what I am at present
The DAC must be good because I have let my wife hear some of her recordings via headphones and she can hear the difference and her feet tap away and she says that shes impressed with the sound but commented it seems busy - playing CD's through our DVD player she probabaly has never heard the level of detail I have heard on recordings before.
I had a large house using a triamped system through SD1 speakers big boxes with plenty of welly bass and holograpic imaging and soundstage. We live in a small flat now in Glasgow so music in rooms have to be a compromise and I am looking to build a small active system using a Wadia Caiman and Active Quads.
I played a friend of mine some jazz choral work from Jan Garbarek and the Hilliard Ensemble - its a stirring record voices in space accompanied by a saxaphone - he thought it was unbelievable and that was from the computer so I have restarted listening to music and close miked accostic blues I am hearing fingers sliding over frets and people breathing... I am well impressed and from my perspective think after a month of listening money well spent..
StanleyB
04-12-2009, 07:37
Great write up there mate:). I am especially pleased that it was money well spent. I have always been worried by the excessive amounts some DACs costs. However, there is now a new trend appearing where designers are bumping up the price by adding all sorts of additional features. Hopefully the Caiman range can remain true to the ideal with few frills as possible that have no impact on the 'money well spent' principle.
...considering I have to date been using my computer Itunes abd the basic the Appleloss less format which has its limitations any way.
Sorry, but what limitations does the Apple Lossless format have?
Sorry, but what limitations does the Apple Lossless format have?
I use FLAC, but one lossless format is as good as another. It's just a "zip" file - the data should unzip cleanly and pass to the DAC.
Some formats manage marginally greater compression than others, but sonically they ought to be indistinguishable. The same cannot be said for lossy formats like MP3, AAC or OGG. They can perform quite differently at the same bitrates.
Lossless formats might be limited for reasons other than audio quality - the tagging (referencing data) may not be handled as well, or the format may limit your choice of hardware and/or software.
Stratmangler
04-12-2009, 11:29
Sorry, but what limitations does the Apple Lossless format have?
The only one I can think of is that the file type is not dealt with natively in many cases.
Squeezebox cannot play ALAC without transcoding.
Sony (among others) portable players do not handle ALAC at all.
You'll never find the limitation if you simply use Apple product.
I'm playing ALAC files currently from my laptop using Foobar into my Caiman USB input, and cannot actually tell the difference soundwise between these and the FLAC files on my main Squeezebox Server machine.
The only difference I can see as far as playback is concerned is that FLAC files appear to be CBR, whereas ALAC appear to be VBR.
Chris:)
Fair enough, and I knew about those limitations anyway. I thought there was an implication that it was limited sonically, hence why I asked.
Cheers
Hi,
did anyone have the opportunity to test the Caiman (or stock 7520) with Klipsch RF-7 as speakers?
I am asking because with my old 7510 Mark V the sound was quite a bit too harsh, and I am happy with the Mark VI/4.
I read the Caiman is supposed to be 'brighter'?
Dell D830 (Sigmatel ST9205) SPDIF-coax > Beresford TC-7510 VI/4 > Kingrex T20U+PSU > Klipsch RF-7
The Caiman is certainly not harsh or bright but it is very transparent. On hearing Klipsch speakers at last year's hi-fi show in London I thought they were bright speakers so partnering equipment would need to be carefully matched.
Shanedudddy2
21-12-2009, 00:52
I personally think the stock caiman sounds a bit harsh and bright, just my opinion so don't flame me for it. :P
technobear
21-12-2009, 01:06
I personally think the stock caiman sounds a bit harsh and bright, just my opinion so don't flame me for it. :P
The Caiman is not immune to transport quality.
Mine sounds much better fed from the Transporter than it does fed from the Myryad CD player.
What are you feeding it with?
And on which input?
I agree with Chris, lately I've been playing about with a couple of 24/192 USB to spdif converters, using the stock Musiland USD to provide spdif to the Caiman the sound was quite sharp , swapping over from the Musiland to the Hiface things was more natural, I've had same differences using various CD based transports.
I found using co-axial input the quality of the transport had quite an influence on the sound no matter which of my dacs I use, even the ES9018 Sabre based dac with its Time Domain Jitter Eliminator
Agree to disagree, but I find the Caiman rather immune to transport.
And no, I don't find it harsh. It's a bit over-detailed like a pro equipment, to be honest. But then, almost all recent dacs I've tested have this feature. ;)
In my opinion, a source has to be detailed. If I need to "alter" the sound, it has to be done later on in the chain (at the amplifier/speaker/room level).
Agree to disagree, but I find the Caiman rather immune to transport.
And no, I don't find it harsh. It's a bit over-detailed like a pro equipment, to be honest. But then, almost all recent dacs I've tested have this feature. ;)
In my opinion, a source has to be detailed. If I need to "alter" the sound, it has to be done later on in the chain (at the amplifier/speaker/room level).
Hi Dimitri,
I find the the Caiman has the most transparent sound I have ever heard. The only mod I have done to mine so far is go for a top quality 15v linear supply. This made the sound smoother and weightier which is what I like. A bit more "analogue" sounding if you know what I mean.
So Stan, please keep on doing what you are doing as I for one think it's brill.
Regards
Chris
On hearing Klipsch speakers at last year's hi-fi show in London I thought they were bright speakers so partnering equipment would need to be carefully matched.
The Caiman is on its way to me and I'll give that combination its chance! I am totally prepared to get some awful sound at first until it's burned in, and I will report my findings here. It will be a great investment for my K-701 in any case!
The Caiman is on its way to me and I'll give that combination its chance! I am totally prepared to get some awful sound at first until it's burned in, and I will report my findings here. It will be a great investment for my K-701 in any case!
The sound won't be awful at all, except if you already find the sound of the KingRex/RF-7 unbearable. ;)
Shanedudddy2
22-12-2009, 00:23
I was using USB connection.
technobear
22-12-2009, 13:47
I was using USB connection.
Interesting!
And were you using any special drivers like Kernel Streaming or ASIO or just regular Windows?
Hi,
At last I have got all of my set in some condition, at the same time I got Yamaha GTT-2000L with two different arms and mini hp+caiman, so lot of issues to deal with. Anyway I also have this small Corda movie3 with sennheiser 580HD and a price differences between Caiman and Corda are marginal, but sounds are different, Corda dark and more power of lower section, Caiman refined(transparent), fast perhaps more likeable, I don´t know coz it depends on your musical taste. But for me Caiman took more of everything I like. This was with Sennheiser.
Then I transfered some cds on HP 5101 hd (Karan i180, Ref 3a RV,apple lossless, usb) and straight to box it sounds too good without any burning time and I was very happy, so if it even goes better than this it is bargain. What I can say about sound, transparent, ultrafast(perhaps Karan has something to do about it?) also very nice lower and mid . A lot of detail and more analogue sounding than usually dacs are, but if I compare it in short to Yamaha gt-2000L TT with ysa-2/Clearaudio beta/ear834p that Yamaha took the first place(it sounds unbelivable good), but compare to price you pay this dac is amazing.
Ari
Finally, after the christmas days and being sick till yesterday I just have to write something about the Caiman that arrived some days ago.
My main fear was the Caiman could sound too sharp in my setup, where the Klipsch RF-7 emphasize the highs and things tend to be too brilliant sounding in the end.
All I can say now is that I am finally absolutely loving what i get from my equipment, that means my search for a DAC is over.
My impressions (comparing to TC-7510 MK VI/4) are:
- highs are less intrusive and sharp, but absolutely just there with lots of detail
- lows are a little less quantity-wise, but in comparison to the 7510, which laid a thick carpet of less precise lows, what the Caiman does is really sophisticated. (e.g. Dream Theater - Pul me under or Dvorak - New World: IV)
- Strings are beautiful and you can hear every tab. My wife listened to Sol Gabetta (Cello) for some time, the album now really came to life
- Vocals and brass wonderful (Windsbacher Knabenchor - Christmas CD)
- no fatiguing with the Caiman, in fact I now often turn around and am so intrigued that I have to listen conciously for a minute. Can listen for hours no problem with it
This was all heard using a Dell D830 (Sigmatel STAC 9205) ASIO SPDIF(coax) > Beresford Caiman DAC > Kingrex T20U+PSU > Klipsch RF-7
I did not have the time to listen to the headphone out yet, but had been keeping my K-701 plugged in and so the headphone part should be quite burned in.
Thanks a lot, Stan. Music is music again finally!
I'm resurrecting this old thread as I've just acquired a gatored caiman after agreeing a fantastic deal with Werner; an offer I couldn't turn down.
Since hooking it up to my Mac via Airport Express and an optical cable into the Caiman I have noticed the beginning of some tracks being missed. I vaguely recall reading something about this being about signal lock. However, the dac stays on, as does the mac, so what would make the signal lose lock?
I did wonder if it may be something to do with pre gap.
Werner Berghofer
29-06-2012, 11:26
Lee,
an offer I couldn't turn
just for the record: I did not place the head of a slaughtered horse in your bed, though I'm a big fan of epic Italian family histories.
Werner.
I did wonder if it may be something to do with pre gap.
It's most likely the muting relays taking a hundred milliseconds or so to kick in. It shows up with some sources more than others depending on whether they send 'keep alive' digital silence or whether the music, as you say, has little pre gap.
It's most likely the muting relays taking a hundred milliseconds or so to kick in. It shows up with some sources more than others depending on whether they send 'keep alive' digital silence or whether the music, as you say, has little pre gap.
I'll do some tests on it to see if I can narrow it down cos at the moment I'm getting inconsistent results.
There has only been one glitch-whenever I put a new CD in my transport, there is no sound for about a second or less after it has started playing the disc, so it is disconcerting to realize that I’m missing that first little bit of music. Has anyone else reported this sort of problem-on the Caiman or 7510/20? It’s a minor annoyance, given how good the Caiman is at everything else, and any info on this would be appreciated. Thanks.
Bill
Hi Bill - I too have noticed this on my Caiman - I assumed it was a "feature" of the DAC, in that as far as I can tell it "goes to sleep" when it is not receiving a signal and "wakes up" when it gets one (apologies everyone for my use of technical jargon! ;)) Sure Stan can confirm or deny - but mine is defintely doing the same - I've got used to pressing play, then immediately pressing the back button once the sound comes on which obviously counters the problem.
When you start a CD, the Caiman internal clock locks on to the CD player clock in order to give a jitter free reproduction as possible. However, this locking process relies on reclocking and that has a certain amount of delay, which can vary with the transport that is feeding the DAC. That's why you get that fraction of a delay. If you skipped to track #2 and then back to track #1 you'll notice that initial loss of sound is not there anymore. It's only from start up of the CD.
Regards,
STan
I found some comments on this earlier in this thread. Is there any solution to this? Does it happen on any input? Skipping back to the start of the track, as Alex does, doesn't work for me.
Anyone?
I've already answered this in post #651. The only workaround is to bypass the muting relays but you may experience glitches as the incoming datastream starts and stops.
I've already answered this in post #651. The only workaround is to bypass the muting relays but you may experience glitches as the incoming datastream starts and stops.
To be fair Martin you said its most likely, not it is.
Anyway, how do I bypass these muting relays and why might it result in starts and stops? For the record, I would only ever be using one source so no source switching will be going on.
I find this 'bug' quite irksome.
Muting relays are quite common in DAC and player designs. It could be that the ones used in Stan's design are a little tardy to un-mute. I get this now that I'm using the Caiman on my PC via S/PDIF - the very beginning of a note can be missed.
If you bypass the relays, you might get glitches as the stream comes in and stops. I'm not talking about source switching - even if you have a permanent connection to a single source, the datastream starts and stops as you play and stop media. As to how to bypass the relays, I don't know of any circuit diagrams in existence so you'll have to look at the front PCB and follow the tracks, or ask Stan.
As an example, instead of hearing 'is this the real life, is this just fantasy' I hear 'the real life, is this just fantasy'.
Werner Berghofer
30-06-2012, 11:23
Lee,
instead of hearing 'is this the real life, is this just fantasy' I hear 'the real life, is this just fantasy'.
switch to pure instrumental music instead? ;-)
Seriously now, I have no idea how to work around this special behaviour of the Caiman. I really can’t remember anymore if this also happened in my setup, but without a doubt it would have annoyed me too.
My current DACs don’t miss a single note, not even at the beginning of a track. I certainly can hear a relay’s click, but after a few milliseconds playback begins with the very first bit of the audio signal.
Werner.
This seems to only affect the 1st track of an album, which is why i think it's something to do with pre gap. If I play the last seconds of the previous track in my iTunes library then all is good.
Otherwise, restarting the track sometimes works but not always. I have found no regular pattern to this as yet.
Lee,
My current DACs don’t miss a single note, not even at the beginning of a track. I certainly can hear a relay’s click, but after a few milliseconds playback begins with the very first bit of the audio signal.
Werner.
Werner,
I also rip using XLD. What settings do you use as far as pre gap is concerned?
Werner Berghofer
30-06-2012, 12:17
Lee,
What settings do you use as far as pre gap is concerned?
these:
http://www.berghofer.com/photos/gear/xld_rip_preferences.gif
Werner.
Lee,
these:
http://www.berghofer.com/photos/gear/xld_rip_preferences.gif
Werner.
Werner,
When you insert a CD, you get additional options for pre gap at the top left of the import window.
Werner Berghofer
30-06-2012, 13:30
Lee,
additional options for pre gap at the top left of the import window.
you’re talking about this?
http://www.berghofer.com/photos/gear/xld_import.gif
I use “Include pre-gap for all tracks”.
Werner.
Ah, yes. Me too.
Thanks Werner.
I get it sometimes when starting an album, and if the gaps between tracks exceed a couple of seconds - think it is the muting relays cutting in when there is no signal detected. I think you can mod the relays out of the equation, but after a little while it stopped bothering me - in reality it rarely happens when playing whole albums or playlists for me.
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