Any Digital Impressions of the Caiman yet? [Archive] - Page 2

Gazjam

30-08-2009, 22:37

Er... I don't own an SB3. I have a Transporter :scratch:

I am still using the Belden from Mark Grant Cables.

I am using the power supply that was supplied with the Caiman.

It would be interesting to have an SB3 here for a direct comparison.

I was more thinking of my own setup Chris, in that its good to know that with the Caiman it keeps the Transporter honest. (no difference between the spdif digital outs)
Been housepainting last couple of days,put my comment down to possible inhilation of paint fumes :)

Spur07

31-08-2009, 08:36

Er... I don't own an SB3. I have a Transporter :scratch:

I am still using the Belden from Mark Grant Cables.

I am using the power supply that was supplied with the Caiman.

It would be interesting to have an SB3 here for a direct comparison.

Chris,

Laburum's comment regarding connecting the Caiman to the Transporter digital out has left me slightly confused. Just to get this straight your comparison was a straight fight between:

PC ----- Transporter ----- Amp, etc.

and

PC ----- Caiman ----- Amp, etc.

Cheers, spur07

leo

31-08-2009, 09:15

Chris,

Laburum's comment regarding connecting the Caiman to the Transporter digital out has left me slightly confused. Just to get this straight your comparison was a straight fight between:

PC ----- Transporter ----- Amp, etc.

and

PC ----- Caiman ----- Amp, etc.

Cheers, spur07

Going by this in his post "bear in mind that the Transporter is a very good transport. Results with other transports may vary." I'd imagine he used the Transporter as a transport

StanleyB

31-08-2009, 09:25

And a very good movie it was to! Including S3...

Sorry, couldn't miss that one..

Stan

Spur07

31-08-2009, 10:17

Going by this in his post "bear in mind that the Transporter is a very good transport. Results with other transports may vary." I'd imagine he used the Transporter as a transport

So if you use the digital out from a Transporter does that bypass it's internal dac, giving the Caiman full control? otherwise I can't really see the point :confused:

although it must be said, i'm not nearly as technically minded as you lot :lolsign:

technobear

31-08-2009, 10:35

Oh dear :(

I thought I made it clear but just to set the CD completely straight...

I compared the analogue output of the Transporter to the fixed analogue output of the Caiman using the Transporter as a transport via a Mark Grant Belden 1694A coaxial interconnect.

I used the same analogue interconnect, a Krystal Kables Prism, in each case - pity I don't have two identical interconnects, it would have made life easier.

As my living room computer is bust, I have not yet tried the USB input of the Caiman. When the computer is fixed I will try it.

My point about the Transporter being a very good transport was to emphasise the fact (er... possibility) that the resulting output may not be as good when the Caiman is driven by an SB3.

In other words PC-->SB3-->Caiman might not sound as good as PC-->Transporter-->Caiman.

The Transporter is a very low jitter device. While the jitter on the S/P-DIF output is not as low as that which enters the Transporters own DAC, it is still much lower than that which emerges from the digital output of an SB3. Therefore I would expect the Transporter combination to sound better.

I would be happy if someone wants to come over here with an SB3 to try it out. I would be very happy if I could hear no difference as I could then sell the Transporter and have a few bob to spend on something else :)

Spur07

31-08-2009, 10:57

Labarum

31-08-2009, 10:59

I would be happy if someone wants to come over here with an SB3 to try it out. I would be very happy if I could hear no difference as I could then sell the Transporter and have a few bob to spend on something else :)

I'll have to think about that. Warminster -Glastonbury is not a million miles - but moving house in three weeks!

There are firms that upgrade the digital side of the SB. How much would be gained, I don't know.

My Foobar > USB > Caiman is not as good as my SB3 > coax S/PDIF > Caiman

That could be jitter issues with the USB link, it could be the cable or the laptop. Not explored as I don't use USB much.

There is a SB Touch rumoured - touch screen, faster processor, ability to run it's own server and use a USB drive and true 24/96 streaming. Audio quality as yet unknown.

All I really of Logitech is the streamer - a high quality duet without analogue section - wont happen. But Logitech are happy to licence technology . . . Stan?

StanleyB

31-08-2009, 11:05

All I really of Logitech is the streamer - a high quality duet without analogue section - wont happen. But Logitech are happy to licence technology . . . Stan?
I innovate, not copy. Many have copied my ideas over the last 15 years though.

Stan

Labarum

31-08-2009, 11:10

So if you use the digital out from a Transporter does that bypass it's internal dac, giving the Caiman full control? otherwise I can't really see the point

The comparison was between the DAC internal to the Transporter and the Caiman.

Not straightforward, because when using the external DAC (the Caiman) you are also reviewing the interconnects. The lot in one box, designed of a piece has many advantages.

The Transporter is not cheap and has bells and whistles I don't want.

https://www.ripcaster.co.uk/node/71

Cheaper here

http://www.superfi.co.uk/index.cfm/page/moreinfo.cfm/Product_ID/3229

N0, it's not. It was £1100

Labarum

31-08-2009, 11:20

I innovate, not copy. Many have copied my ideas over the last 15 years though.

But a streaming chip in your little box would be innovative, Stan.

All but the firmware in the Logitech streaming chip is in the public domain, and like Linux, there is a big team of talented folk constantly adding to the possibilities.

You could beat Linn DS products easily.

chrism

31-08-2009, 11:26

I have tried:

1. PC using Foobar/USB/Caiman.
2. PC wireless SB3/Spdif/Caiman.
3. PC ethernet to SB3/Spdif/Caiman.

- and really can't detect any difference between them.

Both tests using EAC copied CD's into Wav and Flac files.

I have tried using a couple of laptops as well and one of them has the dreaded crackle and popping problem. The settings of the PC and XP really do appear to need attention when going USB. On the otherhand Squeezecentre appears to be more tolerant of XP.

Just my two penneth.

Regards

Spur07

31-08-2009, 12:01

The comparison was between the DAC internal to the Transporter and the Caiman.

Not straightforward, because when using the external DAC (the Caiman) you are also reviewing the interconnects. The lot in one box, designed of a piece has many advantages.

The Transporter is not cheap and has bells and whistles I don't want.

https://www.ripcaster.co.uk/node/71

Cheaper here

http://www.superfi.co.uk/index.cfm/page/moreinfo.cfm/Product_ID/3229

N0, it's not. It was £1100

Brian

If that's the case I don't really get it. If it was dac v dac it was hardly a fair fight by sticking the Caiman on the back of the Transporter - does that really prove anything? Are we saying the Caiman is completely negating the dac in the Transporter?

I appreciate the differences in cable/interconnects, etc, but that's not so relevant if you're trying to find a working solution - i.e, can I replace my expensive transporter with the cheaper Caiman without losing the quality? If you run SPDIF directly from a PC to the Caiman to amp, etc and there's no difference compared to a PC > Transporter > amp, etc, then you've given yourself some options. And you can always use the same RCA connection between both dacs to the amp - just a bit fiddly. :)

Labarum

31-08-2009, 12:18

If that's the case I don't really get it.

The point was surely to compare the Caiman to a very well respected and expensive DAC - Stan's DAC came out of the comparison very well.

If it was dac v(ersus) dac it was hardly a fair fight by sticking the Caiman on the back of the Transporter - does that really prove anything?

Yes. In an all analogue system, if you wanted to compare two power amps you would run them in an A-B test using the same pre-amp. Same principle.

technobear

31-08-2009, 12:29

I have two identical computers, one upstairs in my office and one in the living room. The one upstairs is now having to work a little harder.

Spur, I see you are still confused about the digital output of the Transporter.

The DAC in the Transporter is completely bypassed.

You only need one DAC in the signal chain.

You either use the one in the Transporter via it's analogue outputs or you use an external one such as the Caiman in which case the DAC in the Transporter is bypassed.

The same holds true if you use a disc spinner (CD, DVD) as a transport. The DAC inside the spinner is bypassed completely.

What I have shown here, to my ears and in my system, is that when fed from a low-jitter source (the Transporter) the Caiman DAC slightly outperforms the DAC inside the Transporter and is not found wanting in any area.

The Croft Syntegra and the Zu Druids (both with upgrades) are a formidable combination. Given the nature of the differences heard, I can quite see how those with humbler amps and speakers might not notice those differences.

Regarding the comment about the digital interconnect, yes it is a factor. The one I am using still enabled the Caiman to slightly outperform the internal DAC of the Transporter.

Of note, my digital interconnects are 1.5 metres long. This is not for layout reasons but because this length avoids the internal reflection problem that can occur in the cable with S/P-DIF signals. I would avoid using 1 metre cables.

I'm gonna keep inserting the word slightly in these posts because I don't want anyone to get carried away with the old Chinese whispers and start reporting night and day differences.

One other point is that I only use WAV files and they were all produced with EAC.

SqueezeCentre is immune to operating systems because the link (Ethernet or WiFi) is asynchronous. All the Squeeze devices buffer the received digital data and then reclock it to the DAC chip or to the digital output. The Transporter does this reclocking to a far higher standard than the SB3.

So to the final question. Can I replace my expensive Transporter with a much cheaper Caiman. That question is still on the table. All we can say so far is that the Caiman has not been ruled out by a direct comparison with the DAC in the Transporter.

I do have an old XP laptop (an IBM ThinkPad R50) which I will load up with FooBar and WASAPI when I get a minute. Not today though.

I hope I got everybody's questions there. Any more?

Codifus

31-08-2009, 12:33

I've grown to realize something about DACs; the chip inside the DAC doesn't really determine how good the DAC will be, but rather the implementaion and design of the whole unit.

Case in point, the Logitech transporter contains the very same DAC chip as the EMU-0404 USB, an AKM AK4396.

Food for thought.

Carry on:)

CD

Labarum

31-08-2009, 12:42

the Logitech transporter contains the very same DAC chip as the EMU-0404 USB, an AKM AK4396.

And some rate the £150 EMU very highly - see

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/24192-USB-20-beer-budget-EMU-0404-mini-review

But someone on this board shows a marginal preference for the Caiman

See

http://www.theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3702

I would love to see a comparison of the Logitech Transporter with the EMU 0404 USB

As with the Caiman, there's £1000 and difference in price!

Edit:

I was wrong. The AOS thread above compares the 7520 to the EMU 0404 USB. The writer shows a marginal preference fpr the 7520, and Stan says a Caiman would make the preference more than marginal.

technobear

31-08-2009, 12:55

The problem with USB is that it is a movable feast!

The Transporter buffers at least 30 seconds worth of data (I can't remember the exact figure but it keeps playing for quite a time if you switch the router off :) ). It is therefore pretty much immune to how busy the network is. I've never yet in 2 years ever managed to stop it from playing by loading up the network.

USB is a different matter. Will the Caiman be the only USB device or will it be competing with other devices such as a hard drive, keyboard, mouse, wifi adaptor, hub, webcam, etc. etc.? What effect will all these things have on the signal received by the Caiman? To what degree does the Caiman buffer and reclock the data (if at all)?

Another potential problem is electrical noise on the USB output. What effect might this have on the receiver in the DAC?

I don't know the answers to these questions.

On the plus side, USB 2.0 is a fairly capacious network so it may be that none of this matters. I will be attempting to find out in the near future.

marscay

31-08-2009, 13:15

I hope I got everybody's questions there. Any more?

After testing various pc based transports to the Caiman i am yet to hear a discernable difference between any of them, including various sound cards of differing values (£10-£100) which can all bypass internal mixers and send 44.1khz bit perfect and of course the USB connection.

Of course i don't have access to anything as exotic as a Transporter right now as a transport only so i would be intrigued if you can honestly find a real difference between it and a pc which can send a bit perfect signal to the Caiman.

Gazjam

31-08-2009, 13:27

Spur07

31-08-2009, 13:46

The DAC in the Transporter is completely bypassed.

You only need one DAC in the signal chain.

You either use the one in the Transporter via it's analogue outputs or you use an external one such as the Caiman in which case the DAC in the Transporter is bypassed.

The same holds true if you use a disc spinner (CD, DVD) as a transport. The DAC inside the spinner is bypassed completely.

Chris,

Thanks - that's what I was missing. Now I understand. I think I questioned earlier in the thread whether the Transporter digital out bypassed the internal dac, but it may have got overlooked in the general thrust of conversation. Or maybe you lot thought I was being a bit thick - I must admit I didn't realize that all integrated CD players with digital out capability bypassed the internal dac. For some reason I thought it was a case of dac + dac.

So anyway, Transporter v Caiman - fair fight indeed.

Gazjam

31-08-2009, 14:15

and the Caiman didn't disgrace itself :)

Labarum

31-08-2009, 15:19

The problem with USB is that it is a movable feast!

The long thread I reference above on the EMU 0404 USB makes just that point. Many USB 2 ports are poorly implemented by PC manufactures so acheiving the 192 sampling rate of which the EMU DAC is capable is often a problem. I have no personal experience, I simply report what I read.

webby

31-08-2009, 16:54

Just my two pennyworth..
Get a Caiman.

It shows a Linn Ikemi how to behave. (Co-axial out to the Caiman)...and at the same time the optical is connected to an Airport express, which th=en plays itunes, and FLACs from Cog via Airfoil etc etc.

A dragon slayer indeed Stan.

Steve, I'm still mulling over a DAC purchase (it's been a long story) but I have settled on my source; an iMac playing Apple Lossless tracks via iTunes. My problem lies with how to connect to the DAC. I have a 6 or 7 metre run to the amp, so I don't know whether to connect via USB, Toslink, or go wireless with the Apple Airport Express, which I don't own so that's an extra purchase. Can you (or anyone else) offer any thoughts on the matter?

Thanks

purite audio

31-08-2009, 17:20

Could you put the imac nearer to the amp and control the mac with an ipod 'touch' '
Keith.

webby

31-08-2009, 17:21

Could you put the imac nearer to the amp and control the mac with an ipod 'touch' '
Keith.

No, is the short answer. Sorry if this is going off topic.

leo

31-08-2009, 17:48

Oh dear :(

I thought I made it clear but just to set the CD completely straight...

My point about the Transporter being a very good transport was to emphasise the fact (er... possibility) that the resulting output may not be as good when the Caiman is driven by an SB3.

:)

Perfectly clear to me:)

Obviously also the most fair way of doing the comparison using the Transporter as a transport too! the Transporters dac has a helping hand seeing as though theres no spdif to be converted but still probbaly the fairest comparison you can do

I have a SB Duet but its far from stock now, in all honesty modding it made quite a surprising improvement even just using it to feed an external dac

SteveW

31-08-2009, 17:52

Steve, I'm still mulling over a DAC purchase (it's been a long story) but I have settled on my source; an iMac playing Apple Lossless tracks via iTunes. My problem lies with how to connect to the DAC. I have a 6 or 7 metre run to the amp, so I don't know whether to connect via USB, Toslink, or go wireless with the Apple Airport Express, which I don't own so that's an extra purchase. Can you (or anyone else) offer any thoughts on the matter?

Thanks

If it was me, I'd try to find a cable long enough (an optic one might work?). The Airport Express solution works, and sounds OK, but I still feel its compromised. Nothing to back that up of course...just a nagging doubt.
Oh...and make sure its an intel mac you can upgrade to Snow Leopard.. rumour is that its better !

Codifus

31-08-2009, 17:58

If it was me, I'd try to find a cable long enough (an optic one might work?). The Airport Express solution works, and sounds OK, but I still feel its compromised. Nothing to back that up of course...just a nagging doubt.
Oh...and make sure its an intel mac you can upgrade to Snow Leopard.. rumour is that its better !

The limitation of the Airport Express is that it is 44.1/16 only, no hi-rez stuff. The Express has an optical output and is not as sonically limiting as you might think. Stereophile espoused that the express could be part of a decent hifi rig when using the optical output.

I have one an really enjoy it with my TC-7520:)

CD

SteveW

31-08-2009, 18:02

The limitation of the Airport Express is that it is 44.1/16 only, no hi-rez stuff. The Express has an optical output and is not as sonically limiting as you might think. Stereophile espoused that the express could be part of a decent hifi rig when using the optical output.

I have one an really enjoy it with my TC-7520:)

CD
Oh absolutely !!
I run an Airport express with Toslink into my Caiman..it sounds fantastic. Just haven't got round yet to comparing what a direct optical link to a mac would be like.

Spur07

31-08-2009, 18:24

I briefly ran my Airport Express into my 7510 and couldn't hear much difference from the direct SPDIF, but it was very brief!!

I currently run a 4m (Flashback) Toslink cable direct from my G5 to the 7510.

technobear

31-08-2009, 19:28

From the Slimdevices Audiophile Forum its accepted that the digital out of the TP and SB3 are the same.
Over SPDIF anyway.

Hmmm. That's very interesting and certainly news to me. I've believed for a long time that the Transporter was better at the S/P-DIF output.

I'll go and have a read.

Mind you, they are mostly Americans over there and they are mostly cloth-eared so I take anything they say with a pinch of salt where hifi is concerned :lolsign:

If it's true then maybe jitter isn't as big an issue as I've always been lead to believe or maybe the bar for jitter audibility is set above the level at which these modern devices operate, SB3 included.

Certainly low jitter isn't the only reason the Transporter sounds good.

Gazjam

31-08-2009, 19:42

technobear

31-08-2009, 20:09

Hey Chris,
yeah thats what they say, but as you say theres more to the transporter than just low jitter. USed as a one box solution theres not much to touch it.
I'd love to have one, but not purely for sound reasons.

Used as a transport though, not a lot of difference in the real world between it and an SB3 over SPDIF apparently.

All the more reason for Mr. Labarum to pop over here with his SB3 then http://www.technobear.btinternet.co.uk/emoticons/yep.gif

It's only 30 miles from Warminster to Glastonbury.

I work from home so am pretty flexible on time http://www.technobear.btinternet.co.uk/emoticons/cafepc.gif

Gazjam

31-08-2009, 20:31

Brian?

You up for that? :)

webby

31-08-2009, 20:57

technobear

31-08-2009, 22:39

Thanks guys.

I wanna go with the cable option rather than the Airport Express. It's gotta be cheaper that way anyway. If the mac was in another room and cabling wasn't an option then I'd stream, but as it is......

I just wasn't sure about 5m+ toslink cable.

Take a look up into the night sky.

Some of those little pin-pricks of light have travelled for millions of years and gadzillions of miles to reach us.

Have no fear - the light from your Mac Mini will have no problem traversing a mere 5 metres of optical cable.

Gazjam

01-09-2009, 09:07

Take a look up into the night sky.

Some of those little pin-pricks of light have travelled for millions of years and gadzillions of miles to reach us.

Have no fear - the light from your Mac Mini will have no problem traversing a mere 5 metres of optical cable.

:lolsign:
Thanks, cornflakes now splurted all down the front of my trousers! :)

Could be a factor though, as with coax digital, 1.5m is apparently a "golden length" (minimising jitter on the transmission line - or sumfin') so I'd have wondered too.

:)

marscay

01-09-2009, 09:14

As someone said....

"The only gain you'd get using a Transporter to feed an external DAC is the ability to feed the DAC with actual 24/96 files.

Pretty expensive (and probably pointless) exercise."

From the Slimdevices Audiophile Forum its accepted that the digital out of the TP and SB3 are the same.
Over SPDIF anyway.

This is something that i somewhat believe also, would be great for the guys with Transporter/SB3 + Caiman to hook up and thrash out.

I also would like to see a Transporter/SB3 versus PC w/soundcard shootout also, something like a c-media chipset card which can use Asio and bypass the internal resampling of XP/Vista for eg.

technobear

01-09-2009, 09:34

I had a good roam over the Slim Devices audiophile forum yesterday evening and I could find very little on the subject of TP vs. SB digital outputs.

What I did find was not conclusive.

Some people hear no difference.

Others do claim to hear a difference.

The Transporter definitely has a better clock than the SB and much greater attention to detail on the circuitry, power supplies and so on so there's every reason it should have lower jitter at the digital output.

Jury's still out until I hear it for myself.

I'm expecting the Transporter to win.

But then I expected the Transporter's DAC to be better than the Caiman :scratch:

We shall see.

chrism

08-09-2009, 11:45

Very happy with the Caiman and really enjoying it in my system.

I am usually a bit skeptical about "extended" burn in of components but I must say that now I have reached the 1 month mark for the Caiman the sound is really beginning to open out much more. I accept that things change a bit over the first week or so but surprised that the sound is still changing. I had also experienced a bit of a "whispy edge" to voices but even this is beginning to gain clarity (I had thought it was down to some poor quality MP3 copies).

I am not complaining just wanting to point out that we may need to give the DAC plenty of time before judging it and - mod it (gulp).

Anyone else found the same?

Regards

Chris

Alex_UK

08-09-2009, 12:24

I think that's fair Chris - had mine 5 weeks I think, and although a few things have changed to make judgement via speaker a bit subjective (i/c, speaker cable) listening through headphones to the laptop hasn't changed in setup, and the treble which could sometimes show harshness has settled down the longer I've had it and the bass has improved a little too, I think. In another post Stan says the Caiman needs 200 hours in use before it is run in - must be getting close!

marscay

08-09-2009, 20:59

With quite a lively system you might find the combination of LM4562NA + Wolfson 8716 a bit overpowering, at least i did and a few others on here.

The AD826 is a good opamp to calm things down a little w/out losing any detail, improving my speaker cable in the last couple of days certainly helped me out too - i could be ready to stop tinkering...for a little while :)

aBe

09-09-2009, 05:23

Well, mine has passed 5-days of burning in. Still a long way to go.

The new Caiman is definitely an improvement over 6/4.
Corny statements notwithstanding - I'm hearing new details & rediscovering my music.

I'm still in the process of getting used to the so-very laidback new sound.
Not that it's a bad thing anyway.
I am a sucker for such a 'tardy' timing.
But it might not be to everyone's liking, especially so to my metalhead brother.

I could not care less.:)

Ashmore

09-09-2009, 14:13

OK so following much deliberation I decided life is short and ordered the Caiman. Hopefully life won't be too short for it to burn in properly.

It arrived today (thank you Stan) and is now churning through a truly bizarre mix of Elisabeth Batiashvili, Janine Jansen, Seasick Steve, Buddy Guy, Belle and Sebastian, Regina Spektor, Penguin Cafe and bit of Rush for good measure (just a bit, you can overdo things).

Initial impressions, straight out of the box:

There is no doubting that there is a difference and improvement to the stock SB3 through my system (Rotel RA 05, Quad 11L, Kef sub). It is very apparent. The words that come to mind are: detail and precision (timing). Drums seem to come as a tighter punch as though thrown by a fitter boxer, and as someone else has also observed, I can make out lyrics that were out of reach before. This surprises me. I thought my system was quite revealing.

The box is itself couldn't be less sexy if it had been designed by an elderly nun.

I am conscious of not over-egging my enthusiasm at this stage. I recognise there is a psychological need to like what one has done, or in this case bought. I will attempt a considerate and honest appraisal over time.

Simon

NRG

09-09-2009, 14:29

Mine arrived today as well, stunning service Stan, thank you.

I've had my 7510 6/4 running non stop for about 48hrs in preparation and I compared the Caiman cold...immediately I could tell there was an improvement...after an hour it was getting even better. The presentation is very interesting... in a good way...it does not sound like a 'DAC'...I had preconceptions, it has a more 'analogue' presentation that is very agreeable. It now faces 24/7 burn in when I'll compare to my DIY Arcam 1541a DAC and a MF 3.24 :)

Labarum

09-09-2009, 14:32

OK so following much deliberation I decided life is short and ordered the Caiman . . . There is no doubting that there is a difference and improvement to the stock SB3 through my system (Rotel RA 05, Quad 11L, Kef sub). It is very apparent. The words that come to mind are: detail and precision (timing).

I have great difficulty with "Pace, rhythm and timing" (PRAT http://www.audioenz.co.nz/2008/archive_storyofprat.shtml )

These qualities belong to the musical performance, not to the recording or replay chain. In the audio chain I would be looking for clarity, definition, resolution, accuracy, precision, transient reponse . . . - it is these qualities that allow the HiFi to convey the pace, rhythm and timing of the musical performance.

If the performance is as dull as ditch water, no HiFi will render it exciting!

Codifus

09-09-2009, 15:17

I have great difficulty with "Pace, rhythm and timing" (PRAT http://www.audioenz.co.nz/2008/archive_storyofprat.shtml )

These qualities belong to the musical performance, not to the recording or replay chain. In the audio chain I would be looking for clarity, definition, resolution, accuracy, precision, transient reponse . . . - it is these qualities that allow the HiFi to convey the pace, rhythm and timing of the musical performance.

If the performance is as dull as ditch water, no HiFi will render it exciting!

I beg to differ. When I installed the OPA2132 in my 7520 I was tickled by a newly introduced sense of timing, and all I changed was the opamp. All my music stayed exactly the same. For example, on a particular classical music soundtrack, I can't recall which (either the Schindler's List, Glory, or Gods and Monsters soundtrack), the string section would start and the female chorus would gently join in at an almost imperceptibly small delay in time. It sounded so human, so real.

I have gotten used to the opamp now and so I'm not as tickled as I was from the beginning. It still sounds wonderful, but those initial impressions were more apparent.

CD

Labarum

09-09-2009, 15:32

I beg to differ. When I installed the OPA2132 in my 7520 I was tickled by a newly introduced sense of timing, and all I changed was the opamp. All my music stayed exactly the same. For example, on a particular classical music soundtrack, I can't recall which (either the Schindler's List, Glory, or Gods and Monsters soundtrack), the string section would start and the female chorus would gently join in at an almost imperceptibly small delay in time. It sounded so human, so real.

I have gotten used to the opamp now and so I'm not as tickled as I was from the beginning. It still sounds wonderful, but those initial impressions were more apparent.

CD

Perhaps we don't differ. Pace, rhythm and timing are qualities of the music - if those qualities are to be transmitted, the transmission medium needs the qualities of clarity, definition, resolution, accuracy etc.

The HiFi has no soul, it is a piece of engineering, and should not be given the more exalted qualities that properly belong to the humans who made the music.

That's all I'm saying. The HifI can wreck music, but it cannot create it.

Ashmore

09-09-2009, 15:45

Gosh, could you try to be just a little more condescending?

I made no mention of pace or rhythm and my use of the word 'timing' was merely an attempt to define the 'precision' I was hearing (hence the parenthesis). Maybe it was the wrong word.

I think you'll find that my perception fits very neatly within your definitions.

The Beresford has not yet changed the time signature of any tracks I've played through it, but I am hopeful that after the seventeen year burning in process some of my least favourite tracks will be end sooner.

Simon

Marco

09-09-2009, 16:06

Hi Simon,

I don't think that Brian was being at all condescending - he's just not like that. Perhaps you've misconstrued his post a little?

In any case, I'm sure that he will come along himself soon and clarify :)

Marco.

Labarum

09-09-2009, 16:23

My apologies, Simon. My rant was not aimed at you, merely occasioned by your juxtaposition of detail and precision with timing. There are those who claim far too much for the engineering. It helps sell expensive boxes.

Ashmore

09-09-2009, 16:47

Sorry all - I did kick off a bit there. Apologies all for being a bit sharp.

Labarum: You can borrow my copy of Janine Jansen's four seasons any time, it's really slow on the Caiman ;)

Simon

My wife has noticed the additional box on the HiFi rack. I explained I can now make out the words on Lambchop's Oh Ohio album. She responded "But why would you want to?" I love that woman.

Labarum

09-09-2009, 17:06

You can borrow my copy of Janine Jansen's four seasons any time, it's really slow on the Caiman ;)

I like my Seasons fast and not often - they remind me too much of the telephone queue "Your call is important to us"!

But thanks for the offer. :)

StanleyB

10-09-2009, 21:11

What HIFI should be posting a test review of the Caiman in the next few weeks according to their forum site. I am also looking forward to the comments of new owners who got their Caiman this week:).

Stan

Alex_UK

10-09-2009, 21:40

I am also looking forward to the comments of new owners who got their Caiman this week:)

Well Stan, that's a leading question if ever I saw one, so I'll be first - why? what are the differences with this week's Caimans compared to the earlier versions?

Any idea how the review went?

DaveK

10-09-2009, 22:00

Well Stan, that's a leading question if ever I saw one, so I'll be first - why? what are the differences with this week's Caimans compared to the earlier versions?

Could it be the new PSU (at a £15 premium possibly) I ask myself?
Cheers,

technobear

10-09-2009, 22:05

Stan, I hope you're laying in a good supply of Caimans. I am going to need at least one more (and maybe two).

StanleyB

10-09-2009, 22:11

Well Stan, that's a leading question if ever I saw one, so I'll be first - why? what are the differences with this week's Caimans compared to the earlier versions?
:confused: The Caiman was out of stock for several weeks, and I have only been able to ship some off this week again after the delay. So now there is a new group of Caiman owners whose views would be most welcome in this thread:).

Stan

Marktdac

10-09-2009, 22:27

Hope iv not opened up a can of worms here!!

Mark:o

Alex_UK

11-09-2009, 07:27

:confused: The Caiman was out of stock for several weeks, and I have only been able to ship some off this week again after the delay. So now there is a new group of Caiman owners whose views would be most welcome in this thread:).

Ah, sorry, so I read more into it than there was! 2+2 doesn't = 5... :doh:

<Move along, there's nothing to see here>

Ali Tait

11-09-2009, 17:54

If I may refer to earlier posts in this thread with regard to timing etc.I accept that any piece of hi-fi is indeed just a piece of electronic equipment,but I do think the particular design of said piece of equipment affects our perception of how it plays music.The reason for this post is the direct-coupled amplifier prototype I am fortunate enough to be in possession of at the moment,driving my electrostatic loudspeakers.I have to say, the sense of "speed" this amplifier imparts to the music played through it is staggering.The way it defines the leading edges of drum beats and cymbals just has to heard.I can't adequately describe it.It does however,make all the other amps I have sound slow and pedestrian by comparison.Now I'm not saying the amp itself has better PRAT or whatever you wish to call it,just that the design of the amp and the way it plays music is very different to any other amp I've ever heard.Make of that what you will.

Labarum

11-09-2009, 18:12

Ah, 'speed' certainly is a quality of both electronics and loudspeakers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amplifier

Electrostatic speakers are among the fastest, but horns also can be fast

http://www.audiocircuit.com/index.php?cc=907&url=907-GEN-HTW-Some_Quo-O-A01.htm

Horns are not in vogue at the moment and are expensive to make.

Closed boxes and reflex enclosures are slow in comparison.

NRG

13-09-2009, 20:27

:confused: The Caiman was out of stock for several weeks, and I have only been able to ship some off this week again after the delay. So now there is a new group of Caiman owners whose views would be most welcome in this thread:).

Stan

Still running in Stan but impressions are of a very clean presentation without any hardness or upper mid sharpness. The top end is particularly open and detailed but with no razor sharp edges to be heard, its very easy to listen to and a noticable step up from the 7510 even with the various mods. The Bass quality is very good as well and in balance with the mid and top...I'll compare in depth later this week with my other DAC's...

CanDAC

14-09-2009, 16:43

Hi,

Even though I live in Canada (not the usual market), Stan was nice enough to send me a Caiman, which I looked forward to listening with great anticipation, given all the buzz in this forum. I've owned a Benchmark DAC-1 and was more than a little curious to see how the Caiman would perform against it at about a quarter of the cost.

It was no contest. The Caiman sounded as good or better than the DAC-1 right out of the box, and seemed to be decently broken in after only several hours of playing. The vocals are more natural, the soundstage bigger, all with greater detail. As a result, the Benchmark is up for sale. I am waiting with great anticipation for the upgraded PS Stan has mentioned.

There has only been one glitch-whenever I put a new CD in my transport, there is no sound for about a second or less after it has started playing the disc, so it is disconcerting to realize that I’m missing that first little bit of music. Has anyone else reported this sort of problem-on the Caiman or 7510/20? It’s a minor annoyance, given how good the Caiman is at everything else, and any info on this would be appreciated. Thanks.

Bill

Alex_UK

14-09-2009, 17:23

There has only been one glitch-whenever I put a new CD in my transport, there is no sound for about a second or less after it has started playing the disc, so it is disconcerting to realize that I’m missing that first little bit of music. Has anyone else reported this sort of problem-on the Caiman or 7510/20? It’s a minor annoyance...

Hi Bill - I too have noticed this on my Caiman - I assumed it was a "feature" of the DAC, in that as far as I can tell it "goes to sleep" when it is not receiving a signal and "wakes up" when it gets one (apologies everyone for my use of technical jargon! ;)) Sure Stan can confirm or deny - but mine is defintely doing the same - I've got used to pressing play, then immediately pressing the back button once the sound comes on which obviously counters the problem.

CanDAC

14-09-2009, 17:28

When you start a CD, the Caiman internal clock locks on to the CD player clock in order to give a jitter free reproduction as possible. However, this locking process relies on reclocking and that has a certain amount of delay, which can vary with the transport that is feeding the DAC. That's why you get that fraction of a delay. If you skipped to track #2 and then back to track #1 you'll notice that initial loss of sound is not there anymore. It's only from start up of the CD.

If we come up with an ingenious in-house solution, I shall offer you a free correction as long as you help out with the postage :-) .

Regards,

STan

Stratmangler

14-09-2009, 19:03

Does this silence problem afflict all Caiman DACs ? I don't have any such issues with my 7510.

Chris:)

Ali Tait

14-09-2009, 19:11

Well the silence does seem to be deafening since it appears Stan may have shot himself in the foot,seemingly posting as a newbie and answering himself! :confused: Or is it a fault with the board?

Labarum

14-09-2009, 19:17

I looked at those posts and decided that CanDac copied to the forum something that Stan sent to him privately.

If Candac had known the board software better he would have posted:

When you start a CD, the Caiman internal clock locks on to the CD player clock in order to give a jitter free reproduction as possible. However, this locking process relies on reclocking and that has a certain amount of delay, which can vary with the transport that is feeding the DAC. That's why you get that fraction of a delay. If you skipped to track #2 and then back to track #1 you'll notice that initial loss of sound is not there anymore. It's only from start up of the CD.

If we come up with an ingenious in-house solution, I shall offer you a free correction as long as you help out with the postage :-) .

Regards,

STan

StanleyB

14-09-2009, 19:18

Well the silence does seem to be deafening since it appears Stan may have shot himself in the foot,seemingly posting as a newbie and answering himself! :confused: Or is it a fault with the board?
That's a newbie posting an email from me to him.

Stan

Labarum

14-09-2009, 19:20

That's a newbie posting an email from me to him.

Stan

As I though, Stan :)

Labarum

14-09-2009, 19:22

Back to the question. Sometimes when listening to my Squeezebox via the Caimen I think there is a pause as I engage the SB, then the slight 'click', then the Caiman sound. Am I kidding myself?

Alex_UK

14-09-2009, 19:27

That sounds the same "symptom" as with the CDP (via Coax) - I've not noticed it on the Soundbridge, but if it is happening then probably the same "clock locking" described above?

Labarum

14-09-2009, 19:31

Possibly. I connect the SB to the Caiman with coax. I haven't tried the toslink and I cannot remember the effect using USB, which I don't often use.

Marco

14-09-2009, 19:35

As I though, Stan :)

Yep, I think we had a slight misunderstanding there! ;)

As you were, guys :cool:

Marco.

Ali Tait

14-09-2009, 19:38

That's a relief! My humble apologies.

Codifus

14-09-2009, 20:15

My 7520 does the same thing. I think this is normal for a lot of DACs. I've seen it in one way or another in my previous DACs.

To clarify, this is what I hope everyone is talking about;

When you 1st power on your DAC (7510, 7520, Caiman etc) the time it takes for it to sync up to the digital source, mine being an airport express connected via toslink, the DAC may miss about half a second of the beginning of a song.

Thereafter, however, the DAC will sync immediately to any song you throw at it from that source.

If the DAC is powered off then you start the whole syncing process over again.

I also own the EMU-0404 USB, and in order for it to sync the first time, you have to power it on as the music is playing. Otherwise it will just sit there silently blinking at you "external clock, external clock!"

I've also read several reviews of DACs in Stereophile that experience similar behaviour.

For all case, just leave your DAC powered on.

CD

Ali Tait

14-09-2009, 20:18

Explains why I've never heard it do that-I always leave dac and cd player powered.

Alex_UK

14-09-2009, 20:20

Doesn't explain it for me - Caiman has never been switched off and the CD player has only been switched off once since I've had the Caiman - I'll experiment some more - but switching sources may have the same effect as powering off?

DSJR

14-09-2009, 21:03

A quickie regarding "speed!"

Fast bass often means NO bass - or an over-projected mid. So many speakers with a properly extended bass are regarded as "slow," even if they're not booming, purely because of that extra octave or two. Most "flat earth" speakers have a rapid rolloff in the bass and/or the mid is severely peaked up - IMO..

Labarum

15-09-2009, 20:22

Ah yes. Getting the bottom two octaves right is very difficult and very expensive. It still requires big drivers and a lot of expensive cabinetwork. The laws of physics will not be flouted.

Ali Tait

16-09-2009, 09:04

Therein lies the problem-at these frequencies you hear the cabinet more than the driver.An OB would produce a more accurate sound IMHO,at least as long as the driver is up to it.

Stratmangler

16-09-2009, 09:14

Right with you there Ali, but unfortunately you end up with similar issues to using 'stats - the damned things need room to breathe in order to get the best out of them.

Chris:)

Stratmangler

16-09-2009, 09:35

Going back to the point about silence at the start of CD's, if the mastering engineer has allowed sufficient silence time (say, 2 seconds) before starting the mastering process, then the problem should never arise, as the DAC has 2 seconds of silence to sync up with before the music starts.

So the problem is actually not a DAC issue, but one of mastering.

Chris:)

trailer

16-09-2009, 09:51

So the problem is actually not a DAC issue, but one of mastering.

I'm hoping that was a tongue in cheek remark :scratch:

Chippy_boy

17-09-2009, 15:40

Ah yes. Getting the bottom two octaves right is very difficult and very expensive. It still requires big drivers and a lot of expensive cabinetwork. The laws of physics will not be flouted.

I agree about laws of physics etc (as an ex-physicist!).

But it is possible to get very extended bass from very small cabinets. Just not at the same time as high sensitivity. It tends to be a bass extension / sensitivity trade off and less sensitivity tends to rob music of its dynamics, apart from also needing a dirty great big amplifier to drive them. Also the crossover tends to be horribly complicated with nasty phase angles and impedence dips, which makes it even worse.

But deep bass from small cabinets IS possible. Look at the REL Q-series subs. They were only circa 12" cubed - which isn't a lot of volume - but managed to get down to around 25Hz -3dB. In the case of the Q200, with "only" a 200w amp.

I don't know why more speaker manufacturers don't offer passive floorstanders, but with an active bass section with a big d-class amp driving the bass enclosure.

They could be very compact, offer excellent bass-mid-treble integration, and outstanding extended frequency response - say 20Hz ~ 30KHz - all fairly cheaply.

The problem with fully active speakers is that they cost a fortune (if their amplification is any good). And fully passive means you usually either have limited bass response.

The hybrid I suggest above would be just ideal. But no-one seems to make them - apart from Martin Logan and may other electrostatic manufacturers.

MartinT

17-09-2009, 18:53

Alternatively, big is beautiful - and gives effortless deep bass :)

Covenant

17-09-2009, 19:09

Doesn't transmission line design give extended bass without loss of efficiency?

Ali Tait

17-09-2009, 20:00

You will get deeper bass with a bigger box but that just gives you more resonance.The only way to avoid it is to get rid of the box.

Chippy_boy

18-09-2009, 13:08

Doesn't transmission line design give extended bass without loss of efficiency?

Yes it does, but withdrawbacks. It helps getting deeper notes but its difficult to keep the response flat because of the resonant frequency of the line.

Milo

20-09-2009, 15:29

Hi
I have the TC7520 and i was planing to do the dac upgrade but i don't know anybody here in the US who can do the change for me. Do you recommend i sell the tc7520 and go for the Caimen?thx Milo SLC, UT

Jason P

21-09-2009, 17:07

I too am *this* far away (a gnat's crochet) from getting a StanDac, but for me it's which one... do I bite the bullet and 'go Caiman' or will a 7520 be enough for my humble system? I intend to get a 'Homaric' cable for whatever I get. This will sit between my Sony 303 ES and my Yaqin...

Cost is a bit of an issue. My recent 40th has swollen the coffers a bit but not enough... I want to know if I need to keep on saving...

Jason

leo

21-09-2009, 17:41

Chippy_boy

21-09-2009, 21:42

Hi Jason,

I've tried loads of dacs commercial and diy, in all honesty I've yet to hear anything that would beat the 7520 or Caiman in their particular price range

I personally prefer Caiman based although the standard 7520 is also very good.

As a matter of interest, have you compared Stan's products to much more expensive DAC's?

I like the Caiman, but I just wish it had remote control. As it does not, I have to run it through my pre-amp. What I really want is a DAC with a remote volume control that I can plug directly into my power amp.

I am thinking of getting a Bel Canto Dac3, but at £2,000 it's a "considered purchase" as they say.

Do you think the Bel Canto will be significantly better than the Caiman? Or maybe just as good? Or worse?

I'd hate to spend £2k and find it sounds worse!!!?|!

Marco

21-09-2009, 22:00

Hi Chippy,

I'd advise you to forget all about the Bel Canto (it's a typical example of commercial over-priced so-called 'high-end' kit that flatters to deceive) and PM Duncan to build you one of these copper DACs, shown in his system pictures here, should you wish to change from the Caiman:

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3936

He'll build you one for about £400 and it'll piss all over the Bel Canto, trust me. Steve Toy (my co-administrator) uses the Bel Canto CDP and we were over today doing an A/B comparison between it when used as a standalone CDP, and when Duncan's DAC was connected, bypassing the BC's internal DAC.

Quite frankly, just how much better Dunc's DAC was compared to the internal one in the Bel Canto was embarrassing, bearing in mind that this is a £2400 CDP!!! Based on the evidence of what I heard today, I cannot see how the Bel Canto standalone DAC would be significantly better and would even hope to challenge the copper DAC.

We also heard how Duncan's Sony Playstation 3 (a £250 supposed 'games console'), connected to his DAC, streaming lossless files completely outperformed the Bel Canto playing the same music on CD! The latter sounded quite broken, musically, in comparison.

Duncan's copper DAC is undoubtedly one of the most outstanding bits of kit I've heard (I'm certain that it would give my £6k Audiocom modded Sony transport & DAC a hard time) and it is a veritable bargain. You should PM him and get more info.

Anyway, I just thought that I would relate my experience to you. What you do from here now is up to you :)

Marco.

leo

21-09-2009, 22:19

As a matter of interest, have you compared Stan's products to much more expensive DAC's?

I like the Caiman, but I just wish it had remote control. As it does not, I have to run it through my pre-amp. What I really want is a DAC with a remote volume control that I can plug directly into my power amp.

I am thinking of getting a Bel Canto Dac3, but at £2,000 it's a "considered purchase" as they say.

Do you think the Bel Canto will be significantly better than the Caiman? Or maybe just as good? Or worse?

I'd hate to spend £2k and find it sounds worse!!!?|!

I've not compared them directly no but didn't feel any commercial ready built stock unit I've heard over a grand warrants the price imo especially since going the diy route, some may give a marginal improvement, I've yet to hear any commercial unit that would totally blow it away
If you want the cosmetics the more expensive route is probably the way to go

I've only heard the Bel canto in another set up which I didn't like too much , I'd seriously consider borrowing/loaning one first before you get too excited about buying one

Marco

21-09-2009, 22:21

Hi Leo,

Did you read my post above re: the Bel Canto? ;)

Marco.

leo

21-09-2009, 22:28

Hi Marco,

Yes, from what I've heard its not just the Bel Canto's thats shite with the analogue outs from their digital gear;)

BTW Chippy, wanting to change to a 2k unit just because the Caiman lacks a remote seems a bit OTT :)

Marco

21-09-2009, 22:33

Well, Leo, based on what I've heard from both the Bel Canto (as a DAC) and the Beresford 7520, I'd confidently say that the Caiman is likely to be better than both!

Marco.

The Grand Wazoo

21-09-2009, 22:35

Never mind what the BC sounds like - I'd say 2k is a lotta lolly for a bit of convenience.
Do you really need rc that much?

StanleyB

21-09-2009, 22:36

I use the volume control on the INOI multi media hard disk to adjust the volume level through the Caiman. Works perfectly well for me.

technobear

22-09-2009, 11:56

The postman has just left Caiman number 2 (cheers Stanley http://www.technobear.btinternet.co.uk/emoticons/thumbs_up.gif ) :)

This is destined for my bedroom system to be used with the upcoming Squeezebox Touch.

This has, however, left me with a riddle :scratch:

Do I now have two Caimans or two Caimen ? :confused:

Jason P

22-09-2009, 13:13

Now Technobear, your just rubbing it in... someone near me having ONE Caiman is bad enough, but TWO!?! Shurely shome mishtake....:lolsign:

I'll happily take one off your hands if you feel two is too many!!;):eyebrows:

Jason

Gazjam

22-09-2009, 14:21

trailer

22-09-2009, 15:03

cai⋅man

–noun, plural -mans.

any of several tropical American crocodilians of the genus Caiman and allied genera: some are endangered.
Also, cayman.

Origin:
1570–80; < Sp caimán < Carib

Dictionary.com Unabridged

Chippy_boy

22-09-2009, 17:48

Thanks for your thoughts guys. I know £2k for a remote control seems ridiculous. But my hifi is also the sound system for watching the TV, so I route my Sky box and my Caiman through my pre-amp.

If I plug the Caiman into my power amp and connect both my Sky box and music source, it's just not practical to have no remote volume control. The volume on TV channels is all over the place and not being able to turn it up or down from the armchair is really a non-starter.

I have considered buying a passive pre-amp (with remote volume) but no matter how transparent they are, nothing is going to be quite as transparent as having the DAC driving the power amp directly.

Still, from your comments I had better audition the Bel Canto very thoroughly first!

@Marco - thanks for the comments. However, I would seriously expect the Bel Canto dac to be *dramatically* better than their CDP. First of all, it (the dac) retails at nearly the same price as their CDP, yet has no tranport nor other electronics to worry about. Second, there is some seriously more advanced technology in it and much more up to date electronics and thirdly it gets pretty rave review from Stereophile - one of the publications I have some faith in. Still, I accept that may not mean anything and in fact it may sound no better. I would definitely have to audition it thoroughly.

Marco

22-09-2009, 18:16

Hi Chippy,

No problem. But you should also know that the owner of the Bel Canto CDP has heard the matching DAC (which like you he was in the market for) and has concluded that Duncan's copper DAC is still markedly superior...

One mustn’t forget the 'value' attached to the Bel Canto badge as a commercial product. How much of its retail price do you think reflects what's actually used under the hood? ;)

Therefore, why pay for anything other than what *really* matters (ultimate sonic performance)? I can assure you that the copper DAC ticks all the relevant boxes.

Marco.

Spur07

22-09-2009, 18:50

Marco,

not sure if you've picked up yet, but I've sent you PM. Hope you don't mind.

Cheers.

Spur

Marco

22-09-2009, 18:54

Yep mate, got it. I'll reply later when I've finished my dinner and done a few things :)

Marco.

Spur07

22-09-2009, 21:39

Yep mate, got it. I'll reply later when I've finished my dinner and done a few things :)

Marco.

No probs

spur

Chippy_boy

23-09-2009, 07:41

I can assure you that the copper DAC ticks all the relevant boxes.

Marco.

Perhaps I have misunderstood, but it didn't look like it has a remote volume control. If it does, I could very well be interested. I am not unhappy with the sound of my Caiman - it's the remote control capability that has caused me to consider the Bel Canto.

Marco

23-09-2009, 07:57

Currently, it doesn't. However, Duncan could easily fit a remote control facility into his DAC/preamp model. You're dealing with a bespoke product, remember, so you can decide exactly what you want. The world's your oyster! ;)

Marco.

Chippy_boy

23-09-2009, 10:57

The Vinyl Adventure

23-09-2009, 11:40

i did a wedding the other day and the sony hifi (and i use the term lightly) they used for background music had the ability to add a beat to any music... i wonder if that would be an option... ;)

jonesi

23-09-2009, 14:19

It looks like Duncan's copper DAC deserves it's own thread.

Back on topic, has anyone compared the Caiman to any other USB soundcards? I have an Edirol but would buy a Caiman if it made a good upgrade.

Ian.

Covenant

23-09-2009, 14:24

[It looks like Duncan's copper DAC deserves it's own thread.

I would like to second that!

DanJennings

23-09-2009, 22:34

i did a wedding the other day and the sony hifi (and i use the term lightly) they used for background music had the ability to add a beat to any music... i wonder if that would be an option... ;)

Wow, mine does that now.... it's the sound of me bashing my head against the keyboard....

sum1

23-09-2009, 23:37

technobear

24-09-2009, 06:40

So is the general feeling for the caiman is that its better than the 7520? I've managed to have a listen to the stock 7520 for a few mins during a meet and i am quite impressed by its price/performance.

Now i am interested in getting a caiman but i am just slightly worried since i think some people find it to have less bass than the stock 7520??

There is nothing missing from the Caiman's bass. It is superb!

It equals the Transporter in this respect and is the first external DAC I have tried that can keep up with the Transporter's bass.

The Caiman actually beats the Transporter on resolution of fine details. Timbre, texture, decay of notes - all are better with the Caiman.

Don't be fooled by the price. The performance is definitely high-end.

Covenant

24-09-2009, 07:08

I agree about the Caiman's bass-its fine but remember it can be tailored by changing the op-amps. I find the 2132 to have more bass and it costs next to nothing.

sum1

24-09-2009, 08:40

DaveK

24-09-2009, 08:59

'Morning Guys,
A thought has just occurred to me, having read the last few posts on this thread, and I wonder if Stan, or anyone else who can 'read' his circuits, can clarify the situation. I may have been responsible in part for adding to the confusion - if so, sorry :( .
I and two other members had our 7520 'Wolfsonised' by adding the WMA8716(?) chip and I called it 'Caimanisation'. Since that time several others have done the same I understand. We now have a situation where we have 'Caimanised' 7520s and genuine Caimans out there, all now often being referred to as Caimans.
We are now discussing amongst ourselves about the sonic impacts of op-amp rolling, with owners, including me, following the lead of other owners by fitting op-amps which we hope will give us the effect that we are looking for, based on the findings of others. But what if a Caimanised 7520 is not sonically identical to a genuine Caiman? In that situation surely the effect of any given op-amp in one could not be guaranteed to be the same in the other?
Or am I worrying unneccessarily, not for the first time :lol: .
Be gentle with me, I know nothing of such things.
Cheers,

technobear

24-09-2009, 13:25

Thanks for the response guys. Looks like i'll get one once i sort out the finances.

Anyone here got a NAD c542 cdp. Currently that is the CD player in my system and if anyone here got one as well and can compare to the beresford unit then it would be much appreaciated :)

I think it's worth re-iterating at this point, since I had the experience last Monday, that fresh out of the box, the Caiman is somewhat bright and brash. Don't let this put you off! It soon settles down although full performance is only reached after about 200 hours use. Be patient. It's worth the wait.

I'm running my second one in now. 24/7 for two weeks playing something suitably full range will do it. I'm using In Silico by Pendulum http://www.technobear.btinternet.co.uk/emoticons/slayer.gif

You don't have to listen to it the whole time, just so long as the selector on the amp is set to 'Caiman', the amp can be off. I have 'phones connected too.

The Caiman is neutral, full range and fast - this does not describe my albeit limited experience of Nad which is coloured, soft around the edges and a bit slow. That's exaggerating it a tad but you get the idea. Prepare to hear you music collection for the first time ;)

Gazjam

24-09-2009, 13:45

steveinspain

24-09-2009, 18:51

Talk to me, you clever people..
I am about to place an order for a Caiman, but want a few questions answered..
What is an op-amp ?
How can I tailor the sound of my Caiman - my speakers are the very little known RMS Rev1 - Les of Avondale is behind them, and only a few pairs were ever sold, but they are for me, slightly bass heavy.
If I get a Caiman, and find it too to be bass heavy, can I do something to reduce the bass - I would rather have a bass-light sound if anything, as there is less to wake the kids by rattling through the house..
If it helps, my previous speakers were Naim SBL's - not bass heavy, and tending towards brash if anything.
As DaveK says, be gentle with me, as clearly I know nothing (and I am not from Barcelona, but way further south..)

chrism

25-09-2009, 15:04

Hi Steve,

I'll be the first then!

Can I suggest that you may be wanting to run before you walk. My advice is to forget opamp rolling for now as it is really intended for the enthusiasts who like trying things out. I think that Stan has spent a lot of time and effort with selecting the components in the Caiman and I am not certain anyone has found better as yet.

One thing you will find is that the Caiman is very true to what it is being fed so it neither adds or takes out anything. On this basis the Caiman will not be the cause of bass problems, quite the opposite in fact.

The Caiman I have replaced a Grad 1 / TPX2 so that says something about it's capability. I run a wireless Squeezebox to the Caiman via Spdif and then to an A260 via the variable outputs.

I use a cheap linear power supply to the Caiman though as I am not a fan of switchmode types.

Hope this helps with your decisions.

Regards

Chris

Ali Tait

25-09-2009, 15:55

Hi Steve,
An op-amp is an Operational Amplifier,basically a small square black thing that looks like a silicon chip,with little metal legs coming out of it.In the Caiman,these are plugged into the circuit board via a socket,instead of being soldered directly to the circuit board in as in most applications.This allows you to easily swap them without doing any soldering so you can try different ones as different types give you a different sound.You need to try in your own system with different op-amps to see what sound you get.They are easily available from ebay and are mostly pretty cheap.

steveinspain

26-09-2009, 07:52

Thanks Guys !
Chris - you replacing a Grad1/TPX2 tells me loads - my pre is an avondaled Naim 102 with a TPX4, so very similar ball park.
I am trying to run first, and do realise that, but the idea of being able to make subtle differences really appeals. I think the main cause of my bass heavy-ness problem, if it is as big a thing as that is down to my music room being too small for the speakers.
Ali Tait - Thanks to you too for clearing that one up - Expect a thread asking what the different op-amps do in terms of sound and what might be best for me when I have got me a Caiman, which I am very close to doing - just waiting to plan my next trip back to the UK to arrange delivery..!

StanleyB

26-09-2009, 08:06

just waiting to plan my next trip back to the UK to arrange delivery..!
Is your local post office in the UK:confused:?

steveinspain

26-09-2009, 08:40

Ha - No, but there is no postal delivery out here - at best I can ask a local bar to accept a parcel, but we have had many items not get delivered here. I once had a cartridge that was sent by courier, needed to be signed for and insured for £2000 left with some bloke I had never met in a bar, and he passed it on to a friend who then got to to me...
If you can send one out here with insurance in case it fails to arrive, then fine by me - I'll place my order right now !

DaveK

26-09-2009, 09:15

Ha - No, but there is no postal delivery out here - at best I can ask a local bar to accept a parcel, but we have had many items not get delivered here.
If you can send one out here with insurance in case it fails to arrive, then fine by me - I'll place my order right now !

Hi Steve,
With tongue firmly stuck in cheek, can I ask if you are one of those Brits we keep hearing about, living a life of comfort on the proceeds of their life of crime in the UK in a hideaway on the Costa del Crime, or in your case, the Sierra del Crime? :lolsign: .
Don't the POs in the nearest big towns do a PO Box service where you can call in periodically and collect all your post - if it's like mine it's mainly bills, so perhaps you've got the best situation as you are :lol: .
Cheers,

steveinspain

26-09-2009, 09:44

The local one does do that, but its more a case of not wanting to be paying for something that fails to arrive - to be fair, over the last couple of years things have improved, and now it is mainly things we post that fail to arrive - birthday cards to the parents, presents to friends in the UK etc. If stan can post with some insurance then fine - I was thinking that as I expect to be over in the UK late October/early November I would do it then, but lets see what Stan-the-Caiman says !
As for me living off my ill-gotten gains - if I am, then it is yet another thing I have failed miserably at.
Since we moved out here 8 years ago, I have commuted to the UK working 12 hours a day for 20-22 days stints then with 4-5 days at home - paying my tax and NI stuff as I am still a UK resident. Over the last couple of years I had to stop work due to my ankle collapsing, so I couldn't walk or work (need a builder in a wheelchair anyone ?) so Kate now does the commute as I am now able to drive again, and am just awaiting an op on my other foot...
My crime activities ended when about 9, as I got caught stealing sweets from a shop and was made to pay for them and return them 0 my father was a tough one, but I learnt !
Life of comfort my a**e !!

DaveK

26-09-2009, 11:16

Hi Steve,
Sorry to hear about your problem ankle etc. - vacancies for wheelchair-bound builders must be few and far between :lol: - hope they pick up soon.
I have a similar early crime record to you but I was 'brought to book' by the Headmaster of my primary school parading me in front of the rest of the school with a brief description of my crime - nicking an apple from the display outside the local fruiterer en route to school. Another lesson well learned!! Managed to stay clean (almost ;) ) ever since.
Cheers,

Labarum

29-09-2009, 06:50

Everyone should read this review of the Caiman (and read the whole thread) on the Squeezebox forum.

Themis is a knowledgeable and well respected member of that forum

http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?p=462223#post462223

StanleyB

29-09-2009, 07:15

Thanks for that link Brian. And good to see that your internet connection in your new place is up and running.

Covenant

29-09-2009, 07:22

Stan, did that 2132 op-amp I sent you arrive?

StanleyB

29-09-2009, 07:35

Hi Jerry, it has. I have it plugged into the prototype of the Beresford headphone amp at the moment. My hifi is disconnected right now whilst I try to complete the assembly of the first part of my new audio rack.
Then I'll try it out with the Caiman psu versus the TC-7520 psu.

NRG

29-09-2009, 07:47

Thanks for the link Brian, I think that is a very accurate review, the bit that strikes a cord with me is the total lack of fatigue when listening & that it has no coffee maker facility ;) The Caiman is a very very good DAC and a shockingly good bargain. Thanks Stan.

I have taken to a bit of opamp rolling recently, OP275, OPA2132 and OPA2604...one area where I would like a bit of added emphasis is in the upper bass...I find compared to my TDA1541, male vocals especially, are lacking a bit of weight and depth...there a slight lack of emotional involvement, you would probably never notice in isolation but in comparison its apparent.

So I tried the above opamps to see what effect they had....I ended up going back to the factory fitted LM4562! :lolsign:

The worst was the 2132, over thick sounding, slightly ploddy in the bass and a noticeable drop in HF clarity...a very Naim sound IMHO...not surprising as my CD5 also uses them in the o/p stage ;)

The 275 wasn't too bad but is lacked a bit of 'interest' what makes the Caiman so good to listen too was missing with this opamp....

The 2604 came closest to what I was looking for, better weight to vocals and a little more oomph in the upper bass....but again there was just too much loss in clarity at the top end and so out it came...

I'll try the resistor 36K mod at some point to see if that works....

Labarum

29-09-2009, 07:49

Thanks for that link Brian. And good to see that your internet connection in your new place is up and running.

It takes a while. The chaos is reducing.

My big floorstanders and Quad 405 are in the garage, boxed and ready for shipping to Cyprus.

Our son is back with us at the moment - his house purchase having collapsed. In the lounge we have his Media PC, Marantz AV amp. B and W 684s (and another 3 speakers).

The 684s are remarkable at the price, but . . .

In super direct stereo mode (all DSP off, shortest signal path) I can listen to the output from my Squeezebox - TOSLINK into Marantz amp which is using 4 X 100W to drive the 684s bi-amped; but the Squeezebox is also connected to the Caiman by coax S/PDIF, and the Caiman's fixed analogue out feeds an analogue input on the AV amp. I can hear no difference between the Marantz DAC and the Caiman when listening on the speakers or with my Sony F1 Headphones driven from the AV amp.

But if I compare the Marantz headphone socket to the Caiman socket then it is very clear the Caiman is the better way.

Conclusion: the Marantz electronics and the B and W 684s do not have the resolution to show the Caiman's strengths. If I had the energy, I could unpack the Quad 405 and give the 684 speakers a fair comparison, but I don't think that is high on my agenda.

StanleyB

29-09-2009, 07:56

I find compared to my TDA1541, male vocals especially, are lacking a bit of weight and depth...there a slight lack of emotional involvement, you would probably never notice in isolation but in comparison its apparent.
It sounds far better with the Caiman PSU.

leo

29-09-2009, 09:37

The worst was the 2132, over thick sounding, slightly ploddy in the bass and a noticeable drop in HF clarity...a very Naim sound IMHO...not surprising as my CD5 also uses them in the o/p stage ;)

....

Have to agree there Neal regarding the OPA2132, I removed the 36k+100nf to give this one another try, the sound started annoying me after a while so I stuck the LM4562 back in

The 36k + 100nf mod is easy to try and rip out if you don't like it

Gazjam

29-09-2009, 10:00

Neil, Leo
I fitted the 2132 amps recently and I gotta say, I'm not hearing what your hearing in my system.

All the clarity of the 4562s but with more bass grunt, with better projected and more natural sounding vocals.
Less fatigue now, very open "sorted" sound, the way I remember my Planar 3 TT sounding.

Biggest improvement for me is the way the speakers "disappear" now - its as though the Dac now knows what "Music" is and doesn't just reproduce low and high frequences?
A better sense of instruments being played rather than just reproducing the sounds they make.

Theres a "groove" too that wasn't there before - perhaps this IS the Naim sound and I like it?
Just goes to show how subjective our music listening actually is!

:)

Covenant

29-09-2009, 11:08

I'm with Gaz on this one. A very natural sound to my ears with the 2132 installed. The next thing with me is to try one 2132 and one 4562.
Its all good fun (and cheap)

Labarum

29-09-2009, 11:21

This is beginning to sound like analogue geeks discussing cables!

<ouch>

Stratmangler

29-09-2009, 11:38

This is beginning to sound like analogue geeks discussing cables!

<ouch>

It's does, doesn't it ?

Does the position of the opamp make an audible difference (ie. left hand / right hand socket) ?

Chris:)

(runs away chuckling to himself after dropping loaded question)

Covenant

29-09-2009, 11:45

This is beginning to sound like analogue geeks discussing cables!

<ouch>

It's much more like the discussions about valves except about a tenth of the cost!

StanleyB

29-09-2009, 12:11

It's does, doesn't it ?

Does the position of the opamp make an audible difference (ie. left hand / right hand socket) ?

Chris:)

(runs away chuckling to himself after dropping loaded question)
It would make a difference:ner:. The line output circuit is different in design to the headphone circuit.

StanleyB

29-09-2009, 12:13

There are different versions of the WM8716, which might account for some of the conclusions on the 2132.

roscoeiii

29-09-2009, 14:16

Stan,

You mentioned the improvement in sound from the Caiman PSU. Any update on when it might be available? Not that I'd be shocked if you're in the dark on when you might get the approval you've been waiting for...

leo

29-09-2009, 16:11

Its good to post opinions, be boring if everybody agreed;)

Maybe my OPA2132P is faulty:confused: I've had it a while before things went ROHS , maybe its gone a little noisy , dunno, I may get a newer ROHS one from Farnell to see if its any different

The problem I find is that using this particular 2132 adds a layer over the sound I'm finding hard to ignore, its ok with some simple music but with a wider range and after longer listening I'm finding it a bit too fake

At least Stan fitted sockets making swapping quite quick and easy :lolsign:

DaveK

29-09-2009, 19:56

I'm with Gaz on this one. A very natural sound to my ears with the 2132 installed.

And I'm with both of you, so that makes three of us - actually it's four, but more of that later.
Swapped out op-amps and relaced both of them with today's delivery of 2132s (after managing to position one with 4 pins in their sockets and 4 tucked down the outside :doh: . Fortunately I noticed it before putting lid down 'cos it didn't sit flat).
Replaced lid and coupled everything up, switched on and got two blue LEDs - result #1. Powered everything else up and got a reassuring 'burp' from both speakers when amp cut in - result #2. Pressed 'Play' on foobar and got music from both speakers - result #3. Now to listen :) .
Based on 30 to 45 mins, straight out of the anti-static packing, it's different and it's better different. I'm not just reading from Jerry and Gaz's script, honest, but the bass is sharper (cleaner, less blurred edges and 'tweren't bad before, but better now). It might also be a touch louder for the same volume setting but not by much. Everything sounds clearer somehow, difficult to explain but listening to the orchestral intro to 'Zadok the Priest' the separation of the instruments was more noticeable. I suspect that vocals are slightly more distinct but that aspect is less obvious to my ears. (Added later after further listening: - don't know whether it's a recognised audiophile adjective but 'sweeter' comes to mind, sort of easier to listen to, not that it was difficult before ;) - is 'less tiring' the proper phrase?
I think it will take a longer listen and a longer burn in to properly assess any effects on sounstage width and/or depth, but as I think I may have an amp problem on the left channel perhaps this is not surprising. I'm going to post an appeal for help on this later.
Now to the fourth vote in favour. Sue, (Bose is best), happened to be sitting in the prime listening position for the first 15 to 20 minutes after firing it up volunteered, without any prompting from me, "Sounds nice, your system" - now that's what I call a result!! :gig: .
I'll leave it running overnight for a couple of nights and report back later.
BTW Cap 5/6 snipping ain't bin dun yet so maybe there's more to come.
Cheers,

NRG

29-09-2009, 20:03

Yep, agreed Leo. There's no right or wrong here just personal choice which is also going to be system dependant...if the 2132 floats your boat then fine :) Doesn't work for me for the reasons I've stated, the 2604 came the closest to what I was looking for but I'll try the resistor mod next... :smoking:

leo

29-09-2009, 20:25

Sod it, I'll order another to try just incase this ones dodgy:lol:

Covenant

29-09-2009, 20:36

Sod it, I'll order another to try just incase this ones dodgy:lol:

Thats the way Leo-hang the expense :lol:

Gazjam

29-09-2009, 22:47

I'm with Gaz on this one. A very natural sound to my ears with the 2132 installed. The next thing with me is to try one 2132 and one 4562.
Its all good fun (and cheap)

Thats the way I'm running mine at the moment (Previously had two 4562s in place, swapped out the Line Out one)

Never thought to try putting the other 2132 in the HPA socket....hmnnnn?

Jerry, I await your findings!

Jerry, Dave and myself all had out 7520's "Wolfsen'd" at the same time, and we all find a similar improved sound over the 4562's, so its not unreasonable to assume that if there are different versions of the Wofsen Dac chip, we have the same one?

How many more bloody permutations are there for this stuff? :)

Peter Galbavy

30-09-2009, 08:26

Hi folks, first real forum post... so "Hi!" again to anyone who doesn't read the Welcome forum.

I picked up a Caimen last night from Stan - who only lives a couple of miles away from me it turns out :) - and after dinner I plugged it in and had a quick listen.

In terms of initial impressions... nice. :lolsign:

Haven't really had time to do much more than bounce around various kinds of music and do some very basic SB3 analogue vs SB3 -> DAC tests but there is a clear and positive difference even to my 42 years old ears. The sounds is cleaner - like washing a window and giving it a good polish :)

For some minor background of the listening environment - this is the rear reception room / ex-dining room of my semi-detached house. The ancient door and windows were recently upgraded to a huge pair of double glazed French doors which have made a "difference" (both good and bad - very heavy curtains next on the shopping list). Until last weekend a pair of DefTech BP10's were driven by the SB3 directly into a pair of post-TAG Audiolab 8000M mono blocks and the sounds was "large". A while back I decided to treat myself and finally picked up a pair of Focal 826Ws in red :eyebrows: and I also added an 8000C pre-amp bought from a classified in another forum (and a Pro-ject Debut in red too, but as that das little to do with using a DAC...). Still waiting for the new Rotel 1572 amp which may or may not work well in my set-up ... :scratch:

Not quite finished with new speaker positioning or even the orientation of the room. Once the new amp is in I will start moving stuff around and then start some real enjoyment of the music - which is to be frank good already!

Covenant

30-09-2009, 08:52

Welcome Peter,
If you like the Caiman now just wait until its bedded in a while......

Gazjam

30-09-2009, 13:08

Hi Peter,
welcome to the crazy world of Beresford.....where we are never really happy and always looking for that next "big thing" to upgrade our Dacs. :)

Codifus

30-09-2009, 13:20

Codifus

30-09-2009, 13:22

Alex_UK

30-09-2009, 13:40

Covenant

30-09-2009, 14:21

Am I the only one who has absolutely no intention of "fiddling" with my Caiman? (apart from the new PSU of course!) Maybe its because I'm a "Ham Fisted Cloth Ears" (TM) but I a) don't want to bust it and b) am very happy with the sound... I need convincing!

Its very much part of the appeal of the 7520/Caiman. To be able to change the sound as easily as you change a fuse is a brilliant and novel feature. I compare it to tube rolling for considerably less money. Its also practical because if you move house for example you can tailor the sound to the new environment.

leo

30-09-2009, 14:45

Do you have the OPA2132 in the line-out socket? If so, what chip do you have in the headphone socket?

CD

Line-out for the OPA2132 and AD826 is in the HA out

I mainly only listen to cans at night and sometimes use a separate HA depending what source is used

leo

30-09-2009, 14:47

Thats the way Leo-hang the expense :lol:

Should be here tomorrow http://uk.farnell.com/texas-instruments/opa2132pa/op-amp-dual-fet-i-p-2132-pdip8/dp/1212432

NRG

30-09-2009, 16:23

Am I the only one who has absolutely no intention of "fiddling" with my Caiman? (apart from the new PSU of course!) Maybe its because I'm a "Ham Fisted Cloth Ears" (TM) but I a) don't want to bust it and b) am very happy with the sound... I need convincing!

It had crossed my mind as well but I'm a curious bu**er and wanted to find out...so far I wish I hadn't bothered! Tried the resistor and cap mod and messed with the opamps...gone back to standard!

Leo, BTW the 2132 I have is a BurrBrown one....checked it again today...still sounds pants ;) Hope the TI version is better!

Alex_UK

30-09-2009, 17:25

Thanks for that Neal - definitely a vote for "don't open the case you 'nana!" ;)

joost_db

30-09-2009, 17:43

hi all, thanks for all the interesting information on the beresford dacs, i have just ordered a caiman.

i have a considerable amount of audio in 24/96 FLAC format so will need to buy a pci/usb -> spdif solution.

are there any experiences with inexpensive products like:

pci - m-audio audiophile 2496 ($100)
pci - m-audio audiophile 192 ($160)
usb - m-audio transit ($80)
usb - Musiland Monitor 01 USD ($65)

any recommendations will be appreciated

technobear

30-09-2009, 18:49

joost_db

30-09-2009, 19:23

I recommend that you try the USB input on the Caiman first ;)

...which i will do and which undoubtedly will sound fantastic... however eventually i will want to listen to my 24bit stuff in 24bit

leo

30-09-2009, 19:41

It had crossed my mind as well but I'm a curious bu**er and wanted to find out...so far I wish I hadn't bothered! Tried the resistor and cap mod and messed with the opamps...gone back to standard!

Leo, BTW the 2132 I have is a BurrBrown one....checked it again today...still sounds pants ;) Hope the TI version is better!

Yep, the one I have is BB too, we'll soon see if the TI one is different/better

I tried this BB one again, it goes shouty with complex material, gives a fake hump in the upper mids, out it came ;)

technobear

30-09-2009, 19:53

...which i will do and which undoubtedly will sound fantastic... however eventually i will want to listen to my 24bit stuff in 24bit

OIC

I forgot that the USB input is still limited :doh:

sum1

30-09-2009, 23:04

Yay i just got news that my Caiman has been dispatched this morning. Unfortunately i missed on the new PSU that was also announced this morning. Oh well i can always get the caiman PSU later on after hearing some impression from you guys.

BTW anyone try OPA2228 with the caiman? I got that opamp lying around my house and i used to put it on some chinese DAC to make the vocal become more forward but i havent listened to the caiman yet so i dont know if it needs tweaking on that area

I also got some other opamps like the LMH6655,LT6234 ,LMH6622 that i can try on the caiman but i guess it will probably be months before i start opamp rolling since i like to burn-in the dac first and get familiar with its sound

Peter Galbavy

01-10-2009, 06:10

OK, this one is probably for Stan but as it involves another component someone else may be able to chime in...

Caiman sounding great but my turntable (MM, grounded) was buzzing. Hmm. Was it my moving of the kit 5 feet ? After much head scratching and turning stuff off it turned out to be the Caiman even when *off* but powered.

I have a 50Hz hum IFF the Caiman is powered and the line outs connected to *any* input on my Audiolab 8000C pre-amp. This is too annoying at anything past about 9 o'clock on the volume. There is a very slight mains hum also on the pre-amp on any input even when the Caiman is disconnected (from about 12 o'clock, but much quieter). If I either remove the power from the Caiman (PSU still on, just not in the DAC) or the line inputs I get back to somewhat "normal". Other line level inputs (SB3, Sony CD player) do not trigger this behaviour.

Now, I suspect the secondhand 8000C I got just a week or so ago, but suggestions welcome. For now, it's Caiman off at the wall if I want vinyl (which isn't that often) :)

StanleyB

01-10-2009, 07:12

It appears that the 8000C has a similar circuitry like some of the NAIM amps. i.e. a double earth. The solution is to connect an earth wire from a screw on the bottom of the DAC to a screw on the amp. This then puts the DAC at the same earth potential as the amp. It's the same method used on turntables.

Peter Galbavy

01-10-2009, 07:52

Thanks! Will give it a go tonight.

Themis

01-10-2009, 18:05

Hi all,

I was was just passing by, saw some light, then entered. :)

I guess this is the right place to ask about changing Caiman opamps... Which alternative solutions have been thoroughly tested ? Which ones produce partial oscillation (perhaps none) ?

Thank you for your help. :)

PS: Btw, congratulations for this superb dac, Stan. ;)

Labarum

01-10-2009, 18:24

Hi all,

I was was just passing by, saw some light, then entered. :)

Welcome to this corner of cyberspace, Themis.

Themis

01-10-2009, 18:52

Welcome to this corner of cyberspace, Themis.
Nice to find you here, Brian. :)

PS: "a knowledgeable and well respected member" oO ? Flattery will get you nowhere... :lolsign:

Peter Galbavy

01-10-2009, 20:19

Chippy_boy

02-10-2009, 21:03

Thanks Stan! That worked, sort of. Attaching a grounding wire from the body of the Caiman (view the rear left screw - fiddly) to the phono ground on the 8000C has reduced the mains hum to an acceptable level - not too audible until 1 o'clock, just like the other inputs.

Pete, I used to own an 8000C and I don't remember any hum off any input at any volume setting. I would be concerned that something is not right if you get audible hum at 1 o'clock.

Peter Galbavy

03-10-2009, 12:05

I have now recabled and put the kit on a glass shelved TV stand that I had in bits in the loft. Much more organised. Now there is zero hum on non-phonos inputs even at max and only background hiss on the MM phono input!

(I crimped a grounding cable for the Caiman and slid it between base and lid with the screw going through the loop).

Oh, also moved all the power cables onto a single supressed multiway plug, as earlier the DAC PSU was in it's own wall socket and everything else on another suppressed mains block - that may have also contributed ?

sauhirt

04-10-2009, 19:27

Hello everyone,

last week I received my Caiman and since friday I'm burning it in. So it has about 50 hrs now. But before I say something to the sound of this unit I have to thank to Stan. He's great guy and although there were some problems with delivery (not Stan's fault) he was always kind and patient. Once again thank you.

Ok and what about the sound? It's great. I was using some PCM1793 DAC before and compared to Caiman it is no competition. The only good thing about 1793 was women vocal and highs but everything below was much worse. Almost none bass, very recessed mids. When I first plugged my HP into Stan's DAC it was kinda surprise for me. To be honest I had very low expectations from Caiman. To understand me correctly I had no doubts about quality of this machine but I had doubts about my ears. ;) I thought I won't be able to hear differences between the previous and the new one. As you suspect I was wrong. Caiman has everything (bass, mids, highs) and I also hear more detail than before. That's about pros.

And about cons? I don't know if it's feature of the DAC or just problem of mine but I can hear some unbalance with the volume pot. As I said I am using headphones and my hp are very easy to drive so I don't have to turn the volume up very much. But to certain level I hear mainly left channel and after some more turning up it starts to play both channels on the same level of sound. That border is very low so that is not bothering me very much right now but if someone plugs even easier hp to drive (like IEMs) into the hp socket of DAC he/she could be very suprised. The border could be way above the normal loudness so it will be either listen music with very high volumes or listen with normal volumes and hear mainly only one channel. But who would plug some IEMs into Caiman, right? :lolsign:

Would I buy this unit again? After few hours of listening? With all pros and con(s) I've found out until now? Of course, this DAC is awesome for the price and that unbalance I wrote about is more cosmetic problem than some serious issue.

But I have small problem. With PCM1793 I used some cheap toslink cable I bought in the first shop and now I am thinking if it's not kinda inappropriate to use that cable with my Caiman. If I should buy sth more serious (hifi, professional, in one word more expensive (ok I know, 2 words) :lol:). I have done some research and there is too many choices out there. So I will be grateful to every advice. What cable are you using? Is there any difference between USB, toslink and coax? And would average ear (or maybe below average) hear that difference?

DaveK

04-10-2009, 20:18

Hello everyone,

But I have small problem. With PCM1793 I used some cheap toslink cable I bought in the first shop and now I am thinking if it's not kinda inappropriate to use that cable with my Caiman. If I should buy sth more serious (hifi, professional, in one word more expensive (ok I know, 2 words) :lol:). I have done some research and there is too many choices out there. So I will be grateful to every advice. What cable are you using? Is there any difference between USB, toslink and coax? And would average ear (or maybe below average) hear that difference?

Hi Petr,
Glad you like the Caiman - most people do :). Ive never heard of the headphone unbalance problem so I suspect a headphone problem (but of course you just might have the only slightly faulty Caiman produced) - I am sure Stan will be along shortly with a more authorative opinion.
Regarding you cable question, a lot of people here, including me, swear by AoS member Mike Homar's co-ax cable - not the cheapest at £40 each but definitley the best IMHO.
Cheers,

Themis

04-10-2009, 20:49

Is there any difference between USB, toslink and coax? And would average ear (or maybe below average) hear that difference?
You should try to use a good coax like Mike's one, as Dave points out, or use a decent modern optical (that you can get from the Beresford site).
I use the Caiman with a very good coax, but I can't hear any difference with a good glass toslink. Which means that Caiman circuits do perfectly their job. So, perhaps, your actual toslink does the job.
In any case (unless you can be sure about the particular quality of the digital interconnects, like the Mike's ones), I doubt you should spend more than any cable that Stan sells.

Peter Galbavy

05-10-2009, 15:07

OK, silly Q time. Something got me worried and it's playing on my mind - I have th SB3 with new f/w (Squeezecenter 7.4.1 w. 130 f/w) the Caiman, Audiolab 8000C preamp and a shiny new Rotel 1572 amp.

Last night I had two 10-15 seconds periods where the left channel cut out. The SB3 VU meters showed left channel OK and the power amp did not show any protection or anything... any chance some bit-errors could cause the Caiman to get out of sync for that long (I doubt it) and while I will continue to check and maybe eliminate each box in turn as I can, has anyone experienced something like this specifically on the Caiman ?

HighFidelityGuy

05-10-2009, 15:22

Nope, I've not encountered this with my Caiman. It could be a cable problem but I would have thought if the digital cable was to blame that both channels would cut off. I could be wrong though. I'd play some gentle music at low volume and then work your way through all your cables making sure they're all plugged in securely and also give them all a gentle wiggle near the connectors and listen for the sound cutting out. It might just be a dodgy connection.

HighFidelityGuy

05-10-2009, 15:27

If that doesn't help, you need to find out if your amp has a dodgy channel. I guess you could try swapping the left and right analogue inputs round and see if the problem moves to the other speaker. It's not unheard of for brand new amps to have problems like this. My new Arcam surround amp developed a buzzing fault that Arcam couldn't reproduce or explain. In the end they swapped a few components that were most likely to be causing the problem. Since then it's never happened again. So something they replaced was faulty. :confused:

Peter Galbavy

05-10-2009, 15:39

Thanks - your second suggestion was my first thought for tonight - swap the channel inputs and speaker outs on the amp and see if the left channel cut out ever again or does it move to the right. I am still suspecting the SB3's new firmware, or rather hoping. I don't think it's the Caiman but I thought I would ask...

HighFidelityGuy

05-10-2009, 15:53

Pete, I used to own an 8000C and I don't remember any hum off any input at any volume setting. I would be concerned that something is not right if you get audible hum at 1 o'clock.

Whilst talking to my local Hi-Fi dealer about Audiolab's surround processors and amps in January he mentioned that they had recently had quite a few customers complaining that their Audiolab gear hummed. Apparently they had sent several to be repaired but that this hadn't resolved the problem. So perhaps this is a know problem. It might be worth contacting your dealer as a solution may have been found now. :)

Peter Galbavy

05-10-2009, 17:24

Thanks, but the hum was solved with Stan's help - ground the Caiman to the Phono ground. I also moved all the power plugs to a single supressed multiway plug - and now a master/slave one. However, I have two Chinese made 8000M's that physically hum - I was quoted repairs of about £80 from IAG to replace PSUs etc. Hummmmmm. They are fine as PA gear :lol:

roscoeiii

05-10-2009, 17:36

Peter Galbavy

05-10-2009, 17:40

If by "physically hum" you mean that the hum is coming from the 8000Ms chassis, you might want to look into a product like the PS Audio Humbuster, or Channel Islands XDC-2. Both of these remove DC from your power that can cause shassis hums from toroids. Humbuster worked like a charm in my system. Both companies offer 30 day trials, so if the device doesn't work you can send it right back. Both are around $300 USD.

More than the amps are worth :) This is getting the thread off track, but I will just fill in the blanks.

And not sure your level of technical expertise, but it could just be that whatever is holding down the toroids needs to be tightened. But since both are humming, I'd guess it is the DC on your AC line.

First thing I tried (I got them almost free as part of a Denon 4308 package on a classified ad in another forum) - the toroids are tight. I will however read up on the whole DC on AC thing - I like learning :)

Thanks!

Now back to the wonderful (really, honestly wonderful) Caiman discussions.

roscoeiii

05-10-2009, 19:26

Yes, back to the Caiman. Can't wait to hear impressions of the new PSU.

sum1

06-10-2009, 11:22

StanleyB

06-10-2009, 11:27

Just got my Caiman today. Only had about 4-5 hours burn-in for it and my impression is that its smooth but its sort of too smooth that somehow sounded slow and veiled.
4 to 5 hours burn it:lol:? More like 4 to 5 days at least. But if you are getting a veiled sound from the Caiman through your speakers after a week or so then you have a problem in your system, or your NAD is too bright, i.e. exaggerated mids and strangled bass.

technobear

06-10-2009, 17:15

Just got my Caiman today. Only had about 4-5 hours burn-in for it and my impression is that its smooth but its sort of too smooth that somehow sounded slow and veiled. Currently the Nad C542 cd player is still beating it which i found quite surprising. I'll do more burn-in and see what will happen to its sound. Does the Caiman already have mlc5/6 mod made to it or will i have to do this myself?

The headphone amp somehow produces a little click sound everytime i stop and start a music which is weird since the lineout (fix and var) dont have this click sound. It could only be a particular headphone but i havent tried em out. Oh and it seems like the headphone amp is not shielded therefore you get those mobile phone buzz sound if there one is near it :)

btw does your unit always defaulted to the usb input everytime you turn it off and on? mine seems to do this.

The Caiman is fully cooked at about 200 hours so leave it running with music playing all day and all night for a couple of weeks. Connect the headphones and the amp and make sure the amp selector is set at 'Caiman' (but the amp can be switched off as the signal will still flow through the volume control pot).

The Caiman always defaults to USB when powered up. It's a 'design feature' ;)

I would leave it powered. It uses naff all leccy anyway.

There isn't a piece of hifi kit made that can shield a mobile phone at close range. This is not a fault.

Marktdac

06-10-2009, 17:37

What do u lot think of the headphone side of the Caimen?

Gone back to useing my Project headamp as it seems to power my Audio Technica phones a lot better

More volume and better bass

Thanks Mark

Themis

06-10-2009, 17:55

The Caiman always defaults to USB when powered up. It's a 'design feature' ;)

Strange... mine always comes back to the previous input... :scratch:

Marktdac

06-10-2009, 18:06

That because u have it permenantly connected to the mains

Themis

06-10-2009, 18:15

That because u have it permenantly connected to the mainsAh ok. It's normal, then. There too many thinks that need permanent connection to the mains (networked), that I only unplug them once a year...

jonesi

06-10-2009, 20:11

Stan, I notice that the Caimans are out of stock. Do you know when they will be available again?

Also do you have a release date for the USB cable you mention on the web-site?

StanleyB

06-10-2009, 20:22

The Caiman should be back in stock tomorrow. Mind you, there are people ordering it somehow even though I removed the ordering page:scratch:.

The USB cable is a few months away.

steveinspain

06-10-2009, 20:30

..and how long till the next batch of new PSU's become available Stan ?
I do have a friend visiting in a couple of weeks if you have one spare, and my mate could be my courier....

StanleyB

06-10-2009, 20:41

The Caiman DAC and power supply are to be offered as a combined unit, or with the TC-7520. That is separate from the 50 pieces of Caiman power supplies I put aside for AoS members to acquire at cost plus shipping.
I won't know the final price till I see the Customs documents.

steveinspain

06-10-2009, 20:51

StanleyB

06-10-2009, 21:26

PM sent, but could I send you a payment to cover the cost of a Caiman, power supply and an interconnect with some extra so that you could dispatch one to me and then refund the difference when you know the final cost of the PSU ?
No can do I am afraid. Each Caiman owner has had to hedge their bet and snap up one as soon as it appeared in stock on my site. It would be unfair on past and future buyers if I sanctioned queue jumping:).

sum1

06-10-2009, 22:06

The Caiman is fully cooked at about 200 hours so leave it running with music playing all day and all night for a couple of weeks. Connect the headphones and the amp and make sure the amp selector is set at 'Caiman' (but the amp can be switched off as the signal will still flow through the volume control pot).

Yeah i'm trying to do that by connecting it to my Sattelite box but i'm only connecting a headphone to the built in amp instead of connecting the rca outs as well since its quite a distance from the TV area to the stereo amp. Just gotta make sure it doesnt tune to an AC3 channel otherwise you get that blaring noise :)
Oh well i shall wait and see if things will improve with burn-in (fingers crossed )

Themis

06-10-2009, 22:17

... my impression is that its smooth but its sort of too smooth that somehow sounded slow and veiled. Currently the Nad C542 cd player is still beating it which i found quite surprising. ...
Is it the Nad, the drive that is feeding the Caiman ?
If so, how are the connected together ? Optical, coaxial ?

sum1

07-10-2009, 02:47

Is it the Nad, the drive that is feeding the Caiman ?
If so, how are the connected together ? Optical, coaxial ?

Yep, the NAD is feeding the Caiman. I used the Beresford XQ Toslink as the digital interconnect. I know Coax is supposed to be superior than Toslink but currently i dont have any coax spdif cable unless i'll probably try some of my analoque interconnect cable for it.

steveinspain

07-10-2009, 05:13

No can do I am afraid. Each Caiman owner has had to hedge their bet and snap up one as soon as it appeared in stock on my site. It would be unfair on past and future buyers if I sanctioned queue jumping:).

No problem Stan - I wouldn't want to queue-jump either. I just read it as you having the new PSU's available for sale with new Caimen..
I return to the bottom of the queue and wait impatiently.!

Themis

07-10-2009, 09:05

Yep, the NAD is feeding the Caiman. I used the Beresford XQ Toslink as the digital interconnect. I know Coax is supposed to be superior than Toslink but currently i dont have any coax spdif cable unless i'll probably try some of my analoque interconnect cable for it.
If your amplifier allows it, try some A/B tests between the two.
Also, could you please detail what you mean "slow" and "veiled" ? This doesn't sound like the Caiman at all.
Normally, the NAD is a good player, though its dac is no better than the Caiman. If I remember properly (I had listened to the 542 some time ago) they should be roughly equivalent, with a slight advantage of the Caiman.

No, no point in trying a coax instead of the XQ Toslink. Unless the latter is faulty, what you describe has nothing to do with it.
And no point in trying a no-75ohm-cable (an average cable) as a digital coax: the result will be anything-but-accurate.

sum1

07-10-2009, 10:01

If your amplifier allows it, try some A/B tests between the two.
Also, could you please detail what you mean "slow" and "veiled" ? This doesn't sound like the Caiman at all.
Normally, the NAD is a good player, though its dac is no better than the Caiman. If I remember properly (I had listened to the 542 some time ago) they should be roughly equivalent, with a slight advantage of the Caiman.

No, no point in trying a coax instead of the XQ Toslink. Unless the latter is faulty, what you describe has nothing to do with it.
And no point in trying a no-75ohm-cable (an average cable) as a digital coax: the result will be anything-but-accurate.

Well the amplifier has multiple input so it is possible to do a/b comparison but in order to do that i would need to have 2 sets of the same interconnect and currently while i have multiple sets of interconnect they are from different brand and have their own particular sound so in the end i can only do the comparison one after another for a fair comparison.

As for the slow and veiled, to me currently the NAD sounded sharper and gives more punchy toe tapping sound while the caiman is smooth but dull in comparison to the NAD . To me the NAD is already leaning on the warm side of the road and currently the non burned-in caiman seems a tad warmer/darker than the NAD which surprises me as i was expecting a neutral sound. But its still too early for the caiman so i hope the caiman will become more neutral and more punchy once its burned-in.

Themis

07-10-2009, 10:17

Well the amplifier has multiple input so it is possible to do a/b comparison but in order to do that i would need to have 2 sets of the same interconnect and currently while i have multiple sets of interconnect they are from different brand and have their own particular sound so in the end i can only do the comparison one after another for a fair comparison.
You can try all the same :
Take 2 interconnects, carefully level the output level of the NAD and the Caiman, then check the differences.
Permute the interconnects, then check again.

Levelling the output is essential to compare the two. Take your time. :)
(if you have difficulties to level the output of the two, and the Caiman is too loud, use the variable output of the Caiman, instead of the fixed).

StanleyB

07-10-2009, 10:22

As for the slow and veiled, to me currently the NAD sounded sharper and gives more punchy toe tapping sound while the caiman is smooth but dull in comparison to the NAD .
You have become accustomed to your NAD. Send the Caiman back and stick to your NAD:). Email me for the return address.

technobear

07-10-2009, 13:20

In my system the Caiman is fast and transparent just like my Transporter and just like a good £2k - £3k CD player.

If asked to describe budget NAD gear, 'slow' and 'veiled' are certainly words that would spring to mind from my personal experience of the brand. To my ears NAD has always sounded safe, smoothed over, rounded off, designed to sound inoffensive but missing much in the process. But that's just my experience. YMMV.

Themis

07-10-2009, 14:15

IMHO: sum1 needs some time to objectively decide which dac/setup fits him the best.
Habit is certainly a serious factor, but: very few people have the habit of trying/changing dacs often enough. This makes it very hard to decide which one is which in such a short period (of a few hours).

I tried to understand what he means about slow and veiled. I have an idea about it, but I'll wait for his A/B comparison feedback before getting further in explaining my point of view.
Moreover, I don't think at all that the C542 is a slow and/or veiled CD player. A tad simplifying, probably, but no less (and certainly no more to many) than other players in its price tag.

sum1

07-10-2009, 22:14

You can try all the same :
Take 2 interconnects, carefully level the output level of the NAD and the Caiman, then check the differences.
Permute the interconnects, then check again.

Levelling the output is essential to compare the two. Take your time. :)
(if you have difficulties to level the output of the two, and the Caiman is too loud, use the variable output of the Caiman, instead of the fixed).

Hmm... the differences between the cables is not volume difference, its more like tonality differences so its impossible to balance it out.

IMHO: sum1 needs some time to objectively decide which dac/setup fits him the best.

Yes you are right. I basically need more time to evaluate the caiman further once its burned-in.

You have become accustomed to your NAD. Send the Caiman back and stick to your NAD:). Email me for the return address.

Wow thanks for the generous offer Stan but yeah i'm not giving up on it yet since its not fully burned-in.

Themis

08-10-2009, 08:23

Hmm... the differences between the cables is not volume difference, its more like tonality differences so its impossible to balance it out.

C542 output is at 2.2V, typically 0.2V louder than most sources (2V). I'm not saying that the cable differences are volume differences, I simply state that it is is very hard (almost impossible) to compare two different sources which have a volume difference: if the sources' sound is near enough (no "enormous" differences) , then louder will always sound "better".

bergdus

08-10-2009, 20:17

Hello, my name is Ron

Caiman came in today, well packed. it's burning in now
Out of the box sound: wide stage, more detail, firm bass,

so all the things reviewed in this thread are there, this first impressions make you believe, you bought something special. i'm very curious about it's development.

sum1

08-10-2009, 21:58

C542 output is at 2.2V, typically 0.2V louder than most sources (2V). I'm not saying that the cable differences are volume differences, I simply state that it is is very hard (almost impossible) to compare two different sources which have a volume difference: if the sources' sound is near enough (no "enormous" differences) , then louder will always sound "better".

Thanks for the info. That makes things even more complicated for a proper comparison since my amp volume control is a stepped digital control so i would have to balance the sound out with Caiman's variable out and without a proper spl meter to measure volume balance this turns out to be more complicated than i expected

Themis

08-10-2009, 22:05

Thanks for the info. That makes things even more complicated for a proper comparison since my amp volume control is a stepped digital control so i would have to balance the sound out with Caiman's variable out and without a proper spl meter to measure volume balance this turns out to be more complicated than i expected
I'm afraid, yes. If your preamp doesn't allow for an input attenuation on an individual source basis, it'll be really hard. :( (although you don't really need an spl meter, your ears should be able to notice volume differences on quick a/b switching)
Oh, well, nevermind. Do your best and let your heart decide ! ;)

Chippy_boy

09-10-2009, 20:54

C542 output is at 2.2V, typically 0.2V louder than most sources (2V). I'm not saying that the cable differences are volume differences, I simply state that it is is very hard (almost impossible) to compare two different sources which have a volume difference: if the sources' sound is near enough (no "enormous" differences) , then louder will always sound "better".

I take your point, but I really doubt you could audibly tell the difference between 2.2v and 2.0v

That equates to a 0.8 dB difference in sound level

roscoeiii

09-10-2009, 21:07

Thanks Chippy_Boy,

I always wondered what the conversion was, but never quite enough to look it up. :scratch:

Cheers:cool:

Themis

09-10-2009, 21:50

I take your point, but I really doubt you could audibly tell the difference between 2.2v and 2.0v

That equates to a 0.8 dB difference in sound level
Oh!

So, it's the same 0.8dB difference between 2.0V and 1.8V, I suppose ?
And the same one between 1.8V and... 1.6V ?

How do you get to that, I wonder... I know little about that, could you explain, please ?

Anyway, the real problem, is, that I listened the other day of a NAD 525BEE player and I found it playing louder than another source. Louder enough so that the A/B test couldn't be accurately made. So, I looked at the specifications of the two sources and... I deduced it came from the output level.
You seem to say that you "really doubt" it comes from there. Ok, I don't know enough, you must be right.
But then, where did the level difference between my two sources come from ?

Labarum

10-10-2009, 08:33

Oh!

How do you get to that, I wonder... I know little about that, could you explain, please ?

Themis! O Themis!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decibel

I round terms 3dB represents a doubling in volume and -3dB a halving.

1dB is about the smallest increment the human ear can discern.

The logarithmic nature of the decibel more or less reflects the performance of the ear's perception.

Some surprising conclusions follow.

Think of valve days - if you are old enough. A single ended valve power amp would give 3w. The smallest push-pull amps managed 10w which was twice as loud (potentially). To double the loudness again you would need to go to 100w, and very few valve amps did, the jump was from 10w to 20, 25 or 30w - given the logarithmic nature of loudness this was only a marginal advantage.

And more. I said "The logarithmic nature of the decibel more or less reflects the performance of the ear's perception." More or less, because the ear is not a linear tranducer

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fletcher%E2%80%93Munson_curves

---

0.8 dB ? I haven't checked the maths!

Themis

10-10-2009, 08:48

Themis! O Themis!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decibel

I round terms 3dB represents a doubling in volume and -3dB a halving.

1dB is about the smallest increment the human ear can discern.

The logarithmic nature of the decibel more or less reflects the performance of the ear's perception.

Some surprising conclusions follow.

Think of valve days - if you are old enough. A single ended valve power amp would give 3w. The smallest push-pull amps managed 10w which was twice as loud (potentially). To double the loudness again you would need to go to 100w, and very few valve amps did, the jump was from 10w to 20, 25 or 30w - given the logarithmic nature of loudness this was only a marginal advantage.

And more. I said "The logarithmic nature of the decibel more or less reflects the performance of the ear's perception." More or less, because the ear is not a linear tranducer

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fletcher%E2%80%93Munson_curves

---

0.8 dB ? I haven't checked the maths!

Ah, ok. ;)
(levelling my cleric on Aion at the same time, I have an excuse...)
Still, I can't explain why I heard a difference the other day... I didn't imagine it, though: I knew nothing about all that. :o

technobear

10-10-2009, 09:49

StanleyB

10-10-2009, 10:07

Any first impressions of the Caiman power supply?

technobear

10-10-2009, 10:49

Any first impressions of the Caiman power supply?

They haven't arrived yet :(

Labarum

10-10-2009, 11:23

A 10% higher voltage will give 21% higher power - that's a fifth more and easily audible!

(Power = volts x amps, for a fixed impedance if volts goes up 10% then current goes up 10% and therefore power goes up 21% since 1.1 x 1.1 = 1.21)

As I said, I didn't look at the maths. From memory (40 year old memory)

For watts 10 log (P1/P2) [The 10 is there because we want the answer in deci Bels, not Bels]

For volts 20 log (V1/V2) [The 2 is there because of Technobear's point.]

gives the dB between the two signals

20 log (2.0/1.8)

according to Google calculator this is

20 log(2.0 / 1.8) = 0.915149811 dB

ie about the limit of human discernment.

This site seems to confirm my memory

http://www.astralsound.com/the_decibel.htm

Anyone more knowledgeable want to chip in?

Themis

10-10-2009, 11:30

The "limit of human discernment" is frequency-independent ?

technobear

10-10-2009, 12:25

Any first impressions of the Caiman power supply?
They haven't arrived yet :(

Ooops! Spoke too soon! One just turned up :)

The system is warming up :eyebrows:

Labarum

10-10-2009, 12:40

The "limit of human discernment" is frequency-independent ?

It is frequency dependent and different for each individual.

Those fitted with digital hearing aids (like me) go through a testing procedure conducted by an audiologist.

How these factors affect the current discussion, I don't know.

In my primitive understanding there are three factors:

The threshold of hearing.

The threshold of pain.

The ability to discern differences in sound intensity between the two above limits.

All, I believe, vary with frequency and between individuals.

The digital hearing aid is adjusted in a number of frequency bands to optimise the energy injected into the ear without crossing the threshold of pain at any frequency. This I did not appreciate till the fitting. For years in the Army my ears were tested - the threshold of hearing at all frequencies. When the aid was fitted a second test was done to establish the maximum volume I could tolerate at any frequency. Fascinating subject, and I with I understood more.

For those with impaired hearing the difference between the threshold of pain and the threshold of hearing is reduced; which is why, perversely, the deaf cannot tolerate loud noise, and especially high frequency noise. Those with good hearing cannot understand this.

Themis

10-10-2009, 12:45

So, it seems, I didn't imagine the volume difference between the NAD 525 and the Denon dac, after all. ;)

NRG

10-10-2009, 13:21

My PSU came yesterday but I've not managed to gain exclusive access to the living room for a good listen :(

daveyboy

10-10-2009, 14:24

Hi guys I haven't posted on here for a while but I am still trying to make up my mind about the Caiman. I find myself something sceptical about it, not that I am not impressed with the Beresford 7510, I am. However it is because of this that I wonder just how much better it can really sound?

NRG

10-10-2009, 17:02

Labarum

10-10-2009, 17:30

Let me help you as a 7510 with mods owner.....the Caiman is better....by a fair old margin.

Agreed. The Caiman is in a different league to the 7510 - I have both.

leo

10-10-2009, 18:05

Yep, I repaired a modified 7510 here, good dac but the 7520 with Caiman mods is better by quite a bit imo

sum1

10-10-2009, 22:22

Well guys my caiman is now about 60-70 hours burned-in i know its not up to 200 hours yet but i thought i give it another go with the NAD542. This time i make sure that the caiman gets a spot at the power conditioner as well to make it a level playing field.

Gone are the slow and veiled of my first impression with the caiman. The sound now are much brighter and transparent than before although the vocals seems to take a step back than before to let the soundstage open up. Right now i would say the sound is a tad brighter on the neutral side, it kinda reminded me of the benchmark dac bright sound which can be a good and bad thing.

One weird thing about the caiman is that when i use it in conjunction with my computer i seem to notice a sound (lasted about a half a second) coming out of the box everytime i start/switch music tracks. I wonder what that sound is, maybe its also related to the small click and pop sound i get out of the headphone amp everytime i start/switch tracks as well. But what could be inside the caiman box that can produce a sound :scratch: i am thinking maybe its the clock syncing everytime you start/switch tracks maybe

Themis

10-10-2009, 22:43

Gone are the slow and veiled of my first impression with the caiman. The sound now are much brighter and transparent than before although the vocals seems to take a step back than before to let the soundstage open up. Right now i would say the sound is a tad brighter on the neutral side, it kinda reminded me of the benchmark dac bright sound which can be a good and bad thing.

One weird thing about the caiman is that when i use it in conjunction with my computer i seem to notice a sound (lasted about a half a second) coming out of the box everytime i start/switch music tracks. I wonder what that sound is, maybe its also related to the small click and pop sound i get out of the headphone amp everytime i start/switch tracks as well. But what could be inside the caiman box that can produce a sound :scratch: i am thinking maybe its the clock syncing everytime you start/switch tracks maybe
Nice news ! This sounds more like my own impressions of the Caiman.
I'm quite confident that the "tad bright on the neutral side" will be a souvenir when the burn-in process will complete. At least mine doesn't have it anymore. :cool:

Sorry, I don't know why the signal-lock produces a click with your computer, as it doesn't do it with my SB3... yep, it sounds like a signal-lock, for sure.

StanleyB

10-10-2009, 23:59

One weird thing about the caiman is that when i use it in conjunction with my computer i seem to notice a sound (lasted about a half a second) coming out of the box everytime i start/switch music tracks. I wonder what that sound is, maybe its also related to the small click and pop sound i get out of the headphone amp everytime i start/switch tracks as well. But what could be inside the caiman box that can produce a sound :scratch: i am thinking maybe its the clock syncing everytime you start/switch tracks maybe
A muting relay. Normally, DACs and CD players costing less than U$2000 use muting transistors since they are far cheaper than relays. But muting transistors produce distortion, so I use muting relays. Cost ten times or more than muting transistors, but quality comes at a price if you want the best.

Labarum

11-10-2009, 05:03

I use muting relays.

Does that mean an electro-mechanical relay, Stan? A solenoid moving metal contacts? Or is it a reed switch in a coil? I am guessing enclosed contacts make for more reliability.

StanleyB

11-10-2009, 07:00

If anyone wants to know, they are going to have to buy one of my DACs and take it apart to find out:). My products are full of trade secrets Brian. I am not going to make it any easier for my Chinese competitors to figure out how to copy my ideas.

NRG

11-10-2009, 11:42

My impressions of the new power supply are positive. It adds a bit of weight to vocals and upper bass which is what I thought was missing with the stock Caiman. There's also a slight improvement in instrument and vocal separation with slightly more stage depth. Because of this it is more engaging and enjoyable to listen to. Well done Stan. :)

StanleyB

11-10-2009, 12:38

Glad that you noticed it right away Neal:).
I am well known for coming up with products that are distinctive with their clear night and day approach, instead of imaginable subtle differences. I didn't want to invest time and money into the Caiman DAC and the matching power supply unless it was well worth the extra effort. Even the embossed 'Beresford Caiman' print on the PSU has no equal in terms of style and finish on any PSU from anyone else for less than a ton:smoking:.
To sub-quote one of my competitors: I don't just go and buy a third party power supply to hook up to my DAC. Why cut corners on something so important at that sort of price:mental:? My customers deserve a lot more respect than that, even if they have to wait for the end results for a few months to show up.

And my unique trademark money back guarantee applies to even the Caiman power supply:). If one can't hear an enjoyable noticeable difference, one can have a refund.