View Full Version : Sound deterioration..... Opinions please
carruthersesq
29-08-2014, 20:27
Guys
A little advice if you will?
I'm experiencing sound deterioration during vinyl playback, when lift the tone arm I see quite a bit of "crud" on the stylus, I clean the stylus, lower it and it sounds better but still not I believe it should.
My records have been cleaned by a knosti cleaner.
I'm now seeking opinion, is the deterioration due to crud in the grooves (the knosti fluid seems quite thick and left a sheen on the records) or is it poor set up?
I have requested help/assurance with set up in another thread!!
l had the Knosti for a while and experienced exactly the same symptoms you describe, due to the water and the 'filter' used on the Knosti, it simply does does not do the job properly in my humble opinion.
Ali Tait
29-08-2014, 20:38
Buy one of these-
http://maquinaphk.xpg.uol.com.br/models.html
Does as good a job as the more expensive cleaners IMHO.
walpurgis
29-08-2014, 20:39
How old is the stylus? A worn one won't sound right and will damage records.
carruthersesq
29-08-2014, 20:46
How old is the stylus? A worn one won't sound right and will damage records.
Approx 4hrs!!
If the grooves are cruddy, and it sounds like they are then it will sound rubbish. vaccum cleaners are best although cost a fair bit. if you intend staying in vinyl I'd certainly advise getting one or getting the use of one. I tried a number of different things but bit the bullet and got a moth one. Have to say it cleaned my records so well I don't have to clean the stylus much at all now.
Stratmangler
29-08-2014, 21:02
It's the Knosti causing the problem!
The crud in the groove gets moved around and some gets cleaned off, but a fair bit also gets left in the groove, and because it's wet it takes an age to dry.
That's what is accumulating around the stylus - it's the crud at the bottom of the groove.
walpurgis
29-08-2014, 21:08
Approx 4hrs!!
In that case, there's a fair chance that is not the problem! :)
Lots of things can spoil vinyl playback. Check the tracking weight, don't trust any arm mounted scale. Try setting the VTA to just above parallel. Set the bias to about two thirds of the tracking force.
carruthersesq
29-08-2014, 21:42
Lots of things can spoil vinyl playback. Check the tracking weight, don't trust any arm mounted scale. Try setting the VTA to just above parallel. Set the bias to about two thirds of the tracking force.
Yes I have tried changing tracking weight (digital scales) and bias.
I have recently changed from a Denon DL110 to a AT150mlx which has a micro line stylus and I think it's just digging deeper and finding more Crap!,
l had the Knosti for a while and experienced exactly the same symptoms you describe, due to the water and the 'filter' used on the Knosti, it simply does does not do the job properly in my humble opinion.
Precisely. It’s the age-old issue of it’s all very well cleaning records (that’s the easy bit), but getting thoroughly rid of the dirt removed is another matter entirely - a job that can only be done properly with an RCM, as it has vacuum suction, which is the ONLY way of removing cleaned off dirt from record grooves.
I’m not saying that the OP (Steve) is guilty of this, but it always amazes me how much money folk will spend on the ‘sexy’ parts of their systems (hardware and cables) and neglect the less ‘sexy’, equally vital, parts, such as system set-up and, as in the case in point here, their record care/cleaning regime.
Knostis are, quite simply, shit and a total waste of money. If you truly care about your records and want to hear them at their best, then there’s only one course of action: BUY AN RCM!!
:exactly:
Marco.
carruthersesq
29-08-2014, 22:02
Precisely. It’s the age-old issue of it’s all very well cleaning records (that’s the easy bit), but getting thoroughly rid of the dirt removed is another matter entirely - a job that can only be done properly with an RCM, as it has vacuum suction, which is the ONLY way of removing cleaned off dirt from record grooves.
I’m not saying that the OP (Steve) is guilty of this, but it always amazes me how much money folk will spend on the ‘sexy’ parts of their systems (hardware and cables) and neglect the less ‘sexy’, equally vital, parts, such as system set-up and, as in the case in point here, their record care/cleaning regime.
Knostis are, quite simply, shit and a total waste of money. If you truly care about your records and want to hear them at their best, then there’s only one course of action: BUY AN RCM!!
:exactly:
Marco.
I beginning to think your are correct Marco.
So, apart from Moth, Okki Nokki, VPI what else is out there and what is the minimum I need to be thinking of spending?
Ali Tait
29-08-2014, 22:03
See my earlier post.
Alas they aint cheap....a moth mk2 is about 300 as a kit and over 450 built....second hand ones are a bit cheaper but don't come up much....
I beginning to think your are correct Marco.
So, apart from Moth, Okki Nokki, VPI what else is out there and what is the minimum I need to be thinking of spending?
I use a VPI, but any of those you’ve mentioned will do the trick! Basically, the more you spend on an RCM, the less manual its operation becomes (not as noisy to use, too), and also it comes in a fancier box. Ultimately, though (unless you’re using a fully automatic RCM), as with any cleaning process, the quality of the results obtained is directly proportional to the amount of elbow grease applied! ;)
Furthermore, the type of cleaning solution used and cleaning method adopted is crucial. In terms of the former, I use Paul Stewart’s (Rebirth of the Cool) ‘The Right One’, see here: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/The-Right-One-Vinyl-Record-Cleaning-Fluid-/191218287497 Having tried numerous different types of record cleaning solutions over the years, including making up my own, I’ve found none better. It really is fantastic stuff!
In terms of the latter, you may get some tips from reading this thread: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?29143-Marco-s-(brand-new-vinyl)-cleaning-process-with-an-RCM
Marco.
There's no other way of putting this gently, and I apologize in advance but the Knosti is a piece of junk. They have been around for years, heavens know why, I had one back in the 1990's, I ruined about 5 records before realizing what a load of Cr*p it was. Why anybody would use one these days is beyond me, if you can't afford a proper machine stick with a quality carbon brush.
walpurgis
29-08-2014, 23:26
This sounds like a cleaning media (solution) problem, rather than a problem with the machine itself. Not that I use any myself.
I beginning to think your are correct Marco.
So, apart from Moth, Okki Nokki, VPI what else is out there and what is the minimum I need to be thinking of spending?
Marco is correct. Personally I think the Moth is the best implementation with its underslung vacuum wand. It is noisy, it is about £450 but it does the job superbly.
As far as the cost goes you will quickly make that back with extended stylus life and the ability to buy old,cruddy records for 50p or a quid and clean them up as new instead of buying the often poorly pressed and noisy new versions for £25 a pop. And contrary to what you might read on the internet vacuum cleaning will improve the sq of brand new records as well. If you can't run to a Moth then look at the option Ali linked to.
BTH K10A
30-08-2014, 08:32
The Keith Monks and Lorricraft are the best of the suction cleaning machines and in my experience are better at removing dirt from the grooves than the Moth / VPI type machines. The Moth I tried was good but nowhere near as effetive as the Lorricraft I now have. The only problem is that they are more expensive due to the laboratory standard pumps and more complex suction arms.
The Keith Monks and Lorricraft are the best of the suction cleaning machines and in my experience are better at removing dirt from the grooves than the Moth / VPI type machines. The Moth I tried was good but nowhere near as effetive as the Lorricraft I now have. The only problem is that they are more expensive due to the laboratory standard pumps and more complex suction arms.
Yes, I would agree, although even I would baulk at paying the cost of a rather good turntable for an RCM…
However, I’m sure there are rewards to be had for those willing to spend that kind of dosh! :)
Marco.
I use a VPI, but any of those you’ve mentioned will do the trick! Basically, the more you spend on an RCM, the less manual its operation becomes (not as noisy to use, too), and also it comes in a fancier box. Ultimately, though (unless you’re using a fully automatic RCM), as with any cleaning process, the quality of the results obtained is directly proportional to the amount of elbow grease applied! ;)
Furthermore, the type of cleaning solution used and cleaning method adopted is crucial. In terms of the former, I use Paul Stewart’s (Rebirth of the Cool) ‘The Right One’, see here: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/The-Right-One-Vinyl-Record-Cleaning-Fluid-/191218287497 Having tried numerous different types of record cleaning solutions over the years, including making up my own, I’ve found none better. It really is fantastic stuff!
In terms of the latter, you may get some tips from reading this thread: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?29143-Marco-s-(brand-new-vinyl)-cleaning-process-with-an-RCM
Marco.
I have the same VPI 16.5 RCM as yourself Marco and absolutely agree with your comments. I would add further be prepared to buy or make lots of cleaning fluid as the process of cleaning thoroughly requires mucho fluid. One application as I have found to my error is insufficient and as your previous threads on the matter allude a few applications is absolutely necessary, as is the method.:thumbsup:
I have the same VPI 16.5 RCM as yourself Marco and absolutely agree with your comments. I would add further be prepared to buy or make lots of cleaning fluid as the process of cleaning thoroughly requires mucho fluid. One application as I have found to my error is insufficient and as your previous threads on the matter allude a few applications is absolutely necessary, as is the method.:thumbsup:
Cheers, Jim. On most new records one (thorough) application is usually enough to remove any deposits left over from the manufacturing process, but with used vinyl, it can often take three or four goes to get playback sufficiently silent, certainly to my standards (and no doubt yours, too)! :)
Marco.
Ammonite Audio
30-08-2014, 12:42
A good RCM is very effective at removing the dried crud that a Knosti cleaner leaves behind!
A good RCM is very effective at removing the dried crud that a Knosti cleaner leaves behind!
:lol:
Just finished cleaning half a dozen, which is the most I can manage at a time. Nothing lovelier looking than a pristine bit of vinyl shining up at you. Got some of Doc,s stuff on order for my next batch and see if its as good as they say!
A couple of years after getting "serious" about vinyl, rather than just playing records, I decided some of them needed cleaning. Local retailer charged £3 a pop for an LP so started looking around and bought a Knosti.
First thing to do when buying a Knosti is GET RID OF THE FLUID that comes with it as it leaves a residue. A web search will tell you the same.
There are many cheap recipes for home brewed fluid, I use 75% distilled water, 25% isopropyl alcohol (Maplins, £14.99 per litre and it'll last you years) plus 2 drops of dishwasher liquid to break surface tension (some people use washing up liquid but I'd go very easy on that).
The knosti was alright and better than nothing I thought but not great. Records looked OK, but after I'd used it a couple of times I thought, hang on: the first record will be cleanish but the second will be having a soak in the debris washed off the first.............and by the time I come to the tenth it's sitting in what might well be very grubby fluid.
So I bought an Okki Knokki wet vacuum cleaning machine. Result? Absolutely brilliant! It won't restore an old knackered LP to perfection but the effect it has on discs that are starting to get a bit suspect is truly inspiring. Sound is cleaned up, pops and crackles are gone and visually the LP has that new looking sheen across it.
However all is not lost with the Knosti. Keep the drying rack to put your RCM vacuumed discs in to fully ensure every last spot of fluid has evaporated before you put your clean LP back into it's inner sleeve (or better still a new one - otherwise it's like having a bath and putting your old clothes back on!).
I bought an Okki Nokki as my dealer offered me one at a good price when they were hard to get, but there are a few around the same sort of price that I think do the job just as well.
Prove your original question? Take a couple of your suspect records to a dealer, have them cleaned properly, then try them again at home. Your ears will tell you the rest.
Wakefield Turntables
31-08-2014, 08:00
Nobody has mentioned the good old ultrasonic cleaner :doh: A 6.5L version can be bought for less than £200 and offers a very good alternative to very expensive RCM's. Have a look on DIYAUDIO.com with regards how to make one of your own. I have the Moth RCM mk2 which is very good but I also have a ultrasonic cleaner organised as well. Now if your RCM dosen't move crud from your grooves the ultrasonic cleaner could be up your street. ;)
Eagle owl
31-08-2014, 08:07
I don't own a Knosti but I've just had a thought, after the record has been cleaned but is still wet, can the moisture not vacuumed off using a hand held rechargeable vacuum cleaner ?
A friend of mine uses the Kärcher Window Washer to that exact effect! He uses an old direct drive turntable (See, theres a good use for those too! ;)) to clean the record using similar solutions to the ones proposed here.
Then its suction time with a width adapted Kärcher unit!
Works remarkably well, if somewhat slower an more hand labour than with an RCM.
Atb Mike
I don't own a Knosti but I've just had a thought, after the record has been cleaned but is still wet, can the moisture not vacuumed off using a hand held rechargeable vacuum cleaner ?
In theory yes, in practice a bit more complicated. The wet vacuum principle is to get the record nice and wet, scrub it, thus releasing all of the dried on crud into the liquid, then vacuuming up the liquid with all the crud suspended in it. The vacuum is not there just to dry the record, which will dry on its own pretty quickly anyway due to the make up of the solution. So you could use a hand held vacuum but you need to get a seal between the vacuum head and the record, without damaging the record, which means attaching some sort of felt 'mouth' around the nozzle. Plus the suction cannot be too weak or too strong.
If you are lazy like me then if something is too much faff you are just not going to bother, hence why I still say it is better just to scrape up the extra couple of hundred for a proper RCM which does the job both quickly and effectively.
Ammonite Audio
31-08-2014, 08:38
Russ Andrews used to sell the Knosti with an additional bath for rinsing with distilled water. Based on my own Knosti experience, that's a sensible option.
I have a boxed Knosti doing nothing, if anyone wants it for the cost of postage!
Gordon Steadman
31-08-2014, 09:06
I am still regretting using the Knosti. When I was considering getting rid of the vinyl, I 'cleaned' them before transferring them all to CD. Quite a few of them were played wet. Now I am using the records again, most of them need a good clean because of the residue. Its obvious as soon as you take it out of the sleeve - if it will come out as it sticks to plastic ones - and makes a considerable amount of noise when played.
Very frustrating. At some stage I will make a proper RCM or try and find an affordable one second hand.
How important is the amount of suction?? Provided the record is protected with a felt pad, how can there be too much? (on the assumption it doesn't grip too hard to move of course:))
How important is the amount of suction?? Provided the record is protected with a felt pad, how can there be too much? (on the assumption it doesn't grip too hard to move of course:))
You answered your own question there :)
carruthersesq
31-08-2014, 09:20
It looks like I need a RCM.......
I think the deterioration I am experiencing is the "residue" Gordon mentions above. I think the Denon I was using was not deep enough into the groove to reach the residue crud, the fine stylus on the AT150mlx goes deep in the groove.
awkwardbydesign
01-09-2014, 08:45
I use a VPI, but any of those you’ve mentioned will do the trick! Basically, the more you spend on an RCM, the less manual its operation becomes (not as noisy to use, too), and also it comes in a fancier box.
Marco.
I have a very old manual Nitty Gritty. It's noisy and ugly, but does the job adequately. I made a prettier oak case for it with a latching lid.
awkwardbydesign
01-09-2014, 08:47
Russ Andrews used to sell the Knosti with an additional bath for rinsing with distilled water. Based on my own Knosti experience, that's a sensible option.
I have a boxed Knosti doing nothing, if anyone wants it for the cost of postage!
You mean you'll pay the postage to get rid of it? :lol:
Ammonite Audio
01-09-2014, 16:06
You mean you'll pay the postage to get rid of it? :lol:
Good try! How about £7 including free Royal Mail Special Delivery?
Peter Galbavy
01-09-2014, 16:20
I am in wholehearted agreement with the "Knosti fluid is junk" opinions. Once you accept that, the cleaner and air-dry rack is not too bad for the price.
My non-RCM system at the moment is two Spincleans with 80/20 fluid as per others. I did have three Knostis (got a couple very cheap) and the drying racks are still in use. One bath for clean, one for rinse and air-dry. I am mostly happy but waiting to buy a Clearaudio Double Matrix Pro when the new model comes out. But that's not going to be cheap.
I wrote up some of this fun in a blog post last yearL: http://www.wonderland.org/2013/11/adventures-in-record-cleaning.html
Anyone tried the SpinClean system?
Seems pretty good on a budget?
+1 for Ali T's reply, which seems to be ignored!
The Black Adder
01-09-2014, 17:01
Anyone tried the SpinClean system?
Seems pretty good on a budget?
+1 for Ali T's reply, which seems to be ignored!
Yes, I have.
It's good... not bad at all. It does the job in cleaning but not deep cleaning. If your on a budget then it's recommended. I am looking in to an RCM so my choices are varied.
The Black Adder
01-09-2014, 17:05
I am still regretting using the Knosti. When I was considering getting rid of the vinyl, I 'cleaned' them before transferring them all to CD. Quite a few of them were played wet. Now I am using the records again, most of them need a good clean because of the residue. Its obvious as soon as you take it out of the sleeve - if it will come out as it sticks to plastic ones - and makes a considerable amount of noise when played.
Very frustrating. At some stage I will make a proper RCM or try and find an affordable one second hand.
How important is the amount of suction?? Provided the record is protected with a felt pad, how can there be too much? (on the assumption it doesn't grip too hard to move of course:))
I think air flow consistency needs to be a good factor as well as the cleaning pads themselves in regards to the material used to absorb some of the fluid but not all of it so it wouldn't make nasty run out stains on the vinyl.
chris@panteg
01-09-2014, 17:15
I have a Knosti and have to agree with negative comments made about it, especially the fluid.
Good try! How about £7 including free Royal Mail Special Delivery?
as long as you take the fluid out otherwise it weighs over 2kg and will cost you £20+ to send RMSD
having sold 300+ Knostis with not 1 single complainant I suspect there is nothing wrong with the basic system, if knosti had 100's of people complaining their fluid is not good
I suspect being a german company they would have done something about it a long time ago
for audiophiles who don't like the knosti fluid simply buy some fluid off Paul Stewart (I now use it and its the biz) and you have a decent RCM system, use 2 for better results with a distilled water rinser in the 2nd system
the knosti is marketed at the occasional record user I think, not committed audiophiles with TT's costing £1000's, for that purpose it does a good job hence the 100's of 10000's sold worldwide
as confirmed by Tonar International who distribute them (may be a million by now!)
Better eat dung, after all, Trillions of flies can't be wrong... The occasional record user is better off with a good carbon brush. Anybody seriously looking at wet cleaning (presumably because they have a large collection or buy from second hand stores etc) would be better served with a RCM.
There is no point in bathing a record and softening up the gunk in the grooves then leaving it there to set harder than before imo. sure the Knosti would work fine if you used suction at the end to remove it all, otherwise youd do better to leave it alone.
There is no point in bathing a record and softening up the gunk in the grooves then leaving it there to set harder than before imo. sure the Knosti would work fine if you used suction at the end to remove it all, otherwise youd do better to leave it alone.
I use the Spin Clean (same idea as Knosti). Surely the thing to do after cleaning an LP is to give a rinse.
Gordon Steadman
02-09-2014, 05:44
I use the Spin Clean (same idea as Knosti). Surely the thing to do after cleaning an LP is to give a rinse.
Undoubtedly so.
However, when I was using the thing, it was stressed that the gunk would be left in the bottom of the bath and the liquid would magically evaporate and leave the LP spotless with no residue.
It was cheap though.
I have a spin clean and it works fine, you can buy them SH for about £50 or £80 new with cleaning fluid and cloths.
Undoubtedly so.
However, when I was using the thing, it was stressed that the gunk would be left in the bottom of the bath and the liquid would magically evaporate and leave the LP spotless with no residue.
It was cheap though.
I hold no grudges, but what Spin Clean, do is to tell you that 'It is easy' - 'couple of spins and you're done'. It's like 'You are one one click away from a holiday in the Caribbean'. First you have to give about 25 spins, and not the five they say and after a few LPs (8 max for me), and not the zillion they say you can see gunk at the bottom of the water. But the water itself is not clear so rinsing is obvious and mandatory. Luckily we have very good water where I am - aquifers I understand, and a rinse under a tap of water finishes it off. I am still surprised how much difference it makes. About the same as a tonearm upgrade! As an aside the Spin clean does not come with a drying rack so a bought a Knosti rack for a few bob.
Whatever you use, i'd like to offer a tip on a good cheap cleaning agent:
Tarkett Bioclean
Tarkett is a swedish manufacturer of floor tiles, what we call "click floors".
This BioClean is their agent for cleaning their floors, aka vinyl flooring! :)
I have recently bought a 1L bottle at £4 at my local building material supplier and have tried on a couple of records.
First, it's extremely concentrated. I did 1mL into 0,5L of chemically clean water from the pharmacy. It was a little too much, the foaming is just over the top when using a suitable brush.
Second, it does not require rinsing or so. And it seems to evaporate rather quickly (Contains a small portion of Ethanol, which is derived from Isopropanol)
The result? It leaves a result which i must say is nearly as good as the one from L'Art Du Son, at about 1000 x the cost.
The surface may appear a bit dryer though, more like youve only used water/iso-based cleaning agent. I know this is why some people dont like l'Art, it leaves a 'shine', which i belive is the reason it still sounds the very best to me.
Anyway, give it a try and tell me what you think? If you're not happy, use it on the floors! :)
daytona600
03-09-2014, 12:34
anybody wanting to try a RCM 100% Essential purchase if you have a couple of hundred LPs in your collection
Have a Moth Rcm for Hire for £50 a week or New ones for under 500quid or can arrange a demo unit
also a Audio Desk if you want the best in the world
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkfiuh5kHhU
Canetoad
04-09-2014, 03:14
Originally I bought a KAB EV-1 and it did a surprisingly good job of cleaning my records. However, from memory, it cost me about £120, which is a bit expensive given what it actually is. I replaced it with a Moth. I bought the kit and built my own enclosure and, apart from the noise, it does a stellar job even on vinyl in poor condition. I'd never go back to dry cleaning vinyl, a complete and utter waste of time.
allthingsanalogue
04-09-2014, 08:02
Its the knosti unfortunately. I have remedied this problem with mime buy only cleaning with distilled water & a tiny drop of dishwasher rinse aid (wetting agent) and it cleans extremely well with no 'crud'
Eagle owl
05-09-2014, 14:56
This looks to be a decent DIY RCM, what do you reckon ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_544114&feature=iv&src_vid=VcnJUk0W20w&v=nih26ZXkmJk
I've been using a Knosti for a few years but decided to borrow a Keith Monk's RCM last week to see what all the fuss was about, and in my humble opinion there is very little difference in the end results to what I've been achieving already.
The Knosti scrubs the record really well, and providing you don't use the gloopy fluid that comes with it, and incorporate a rinse stage the results are great. I use distilled water with a capful of white vinegar and few drops of washing up liquid as surfactant. I then rinse with a Verve 1.5l blue pressure sprayer (£9 from B&Q), filled with distilled water, before drying with microfiber cloths. Simple and cheap but works well.
I suspect the pressure sprayer helps the cleaning process too - does anyone else use one?
carruthersesq
13-09-2014, 21:50
Well.....
Whilst waiting on the purchase of a RCM I decided that it can't be all down to the crud left by the knosti and decided to set up the cart and tonearm again, that was about a week ago and so far so good, the sound deterioration has gone and I'm pretty much astonished each time I change the lp. The AT150mlx is something special when eventually set up correctly :doh:
The RCM is still on the cards though, just glad I'm back to being able to listen to my small collection of favourite records.
I use a Moth cleaner and it is very good. think it depends how you use them tbh. Mine goes in both directions and vacuums. I spray Paul Stewart's (of this parish) cleaner on and use a nail brush while the record is turning in both directions. Turn it over and while the stuff if being sucked off I do the other side. I'd say his fluid is the best by far I've used.
Paul Lange
22-09-2014, 21:05
I have to agree with the Anti Knosti Brigade here. I had one and found that after cleaning there was crap in the grooves. The good thing is that the Knosti fluid is excellent for lifting the crud out of the grooves. I thin that the problem is that the actual cleaner us useless at taking the crud away from the record. Rinsing would solve this issue, like nickjj says bu tthen you need to rinse with something that won't leave a residue. I am not sure that vinegar is a good idea as possibly long term it could effect the record, although this is jus a suspicion.
I tend to use the Knosti fluid and a microfibre cloth. A couple of applications of and circular wiping seems to really work well. I also find baby wipes work really well and are great for removing static. If they are fine for babies arses they are good enough for my records. In fact my arse looks and feels as smooth as it did the day I was born, a bit more hairier though. And no, you can't come round and have a feel, before anyone asks.
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