Rooms can be system killers

[Floyddroid]

I moved to my new gaff just over a year ago (July 2013) I was chuffed to bits to have my own 21'x15' room to plonk me gear in. Having come from a modest sized terrace house and sitting pretty close to my system i couldn't wait to hear my system in a bigger room. Imagine my dismay when i cranked things up only to find that there was simply no depth or presence. It has taken me almost a year to start getting my system to start performing somewhere near right. Even now moving my settee away from the speakers a matter of inches can kill it stone dead.
It just goes to prove that you should be careful what you wish for. You may own a wildly elaborate system but unless you get the seating arrangements right, speaker placement etc even the best gear can sound crap. I have settled around two thirds of the way into the room. one foot either way puts me in the middle of dead spot. Has anyone else had similar problems?:scratch:

[RichB]

I moved to my new gaff just over a year ago (July 2013) I was chuffed to bits to have my own 21'x15' room to plonk me gear in. Having come from a modest sized terrace house and sitting pretty close to my system i couldn't wait to hear my system in a bigger room. Imagine my dismay when i cranked things up only to find that there was simply no depth or presence. It has taken me almost a year to start getting my system to start performing somewhere near right. Even now moving my settee away from the speakers a matter of inches can kill it stone dead.
It just goes to prove that you should be careful what you wish for. You may own a wildly elaborate system but unless you get the seating arrangements right, speaker placement etc even the best gear can sound crap. I have settled around two thirds of the way into the room. one foot either way puts me in the middle of dead spot. Has anyone else had similar problems?:scratch:

Indeed, I think this should be a notice we put at the next nebo to say

'Beware, everything you hear sounds totally different when the owners get them home'

Leave a bowl of salt handy and remind folk to take a pinch as they go.

Pleased to hear you're getting there. I'll try and get down for a visit.

[Puffin]

We have a lounge 20' by 25' so quite large. When we moved here I was moving my kit from a converted garage 7' x 15'. I was like a dog on heat and couldn't wait to hear how fantastic it would all sound in a much larger room. Phssss (deflating balloon x 100times!) No matter where I put everything it sounded SHITE. After too much shifting gear around I gave up. I used the study for 8 years (9' x 8') for many years to great effect, before I build a soundproof room in half the double garage (11' x 17'). took some time to get it right, but it don't sound half bad to my buggered ears.

[Andrei]

I used the study for 8 years (9' x 8') for many years to great effect, before I build a soundproof room in half the double garage (11' x 17'). took some time to get it right, but it don't sound half bad to my buggered ears.
We used to dream of a soundproof room! There was 10 us in shoe-box, only room for one speaker, but it was listening-room to us!!

[Macca]

I've lived in a lot of different houses over the years but I would say in general that:

Big rooms are better than small
Concrete floors are better than wooden suspended
Brick walls better than plasterboard
High ceilings are better than low ceilings.

The most important element of those I reckon is the concrete floor. You can't beat a well-damped concrete floor. Other than that success is mainly dependant on the loudspeakers and their suitablility for the space.

[Spectral Morn]

I've lived in a lot of different houses over the years but I would say in general that:

Big rooms are better than small
Concrete floors are better than wooden suspended
Brick walls better than plasterboard
High ceilings are better than low ceilings.

The most important element of those I reckon is the concrete floor. You can't beat a well-damped concrete floor. Other than that success is mainly dependant on the loudspeakers and their suitablility for the space.

Not always the case re concrete floors, and certainly not the case with bison slab floors. Its I think dangerous to generalise. Each room and floor type will have its pluses and minuses.


Regards Neil

[Macca]

I've no idea what a bison slab floor is. I'm talking about a big hole full of concrete ;) Nine houses in ten years with all sorts of floors, I'm happy that I'm right about this. If nothing else you don't have to worry about the stupid turntable jumping every time you walk around.

[Spectral Morn]

The one thing I haven't read so far is folks realising that the reason you can't generally transplant systems from one house to another, room to room is that each system has been optimised for that first room. The room is part of the system not some nebulous afterthought.

I think often, the thing I saw when in the retail trade, was folks not having given any consideration to the room and what one could do with it or not. In the main folks wanting speakers way too big or way too small for the type of room. In my view the room is the foundation upon which everything else sits and every system must be picked, tuned to that room for the system to work to its best.

However the problem then is no room is going to be the same as the next and the chances are very slim the original system will be a shoe in for the new room. Perhaps a change in speakers will do it but often its a root and branch change as every aspect needs altered to match the new room.


Regards Neil

[Spectral Morn]

I've no idea what a bison slab floor is. I'm talking about a big hole full of concrete ;) Nine houses in ten years with all sorts of floors, I'm happy that I'm right about this. If nothing else you don't have to worry about the stupid turntable jumping every time you walk around.

That may be the case but I have come across concrete floors that have serious resonances within them, some times due to being laid badly, having cavities within them, cracks, one layer having detached from another etc. The point I am trying to make is that it would be foolish to just think because there is a concrete floor that everything will be ok, my experiences todate indicate that isn't always the case.

A bison slab floor feels like solid concrete but has cavities within it, they are large long rectangular floor sections that interlock but as they are hollow https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=bison+slab&espv=2&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=BDYAVMWsG-ap7AbCoYHoCw&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ&biw=1093&bih=527&dpr=1.25#q=bison+slab+floor&tbm=isch can have resonances.


Regards Neil

[awkwardbydesign]

I have settled around two thirds of the way into the room. one foot either way puts me in the middle of dead spot. Has anyone else had similar problems?:scratch:
Yes. Our sofa has to be back against the wall, but moving forwards puts me through several nodes and anti-nodes. I have now OVERdamped my room, so will have to put some HF reflection back.

[Reffc]

I've no idea what a bison slab floor is. I'm talking about a big hole full of concrete ;) Nine houses in ten years with all sorts of floors, I'm happy that I'm right about this. If nothing else you don't have to worry about the stupid turntable jumping every time you walk around.

Absolutely;

It doesn't matter even if there were cracks in a concrete floor (which there shouldn't be!) There may be cracks in the overlying screed but that wont affect floor resonance and there will certainly never be air voids big enough to cause problems with resonance. If that is the case, I suspect the owner has much more to worry about than turntable isolation!

[Puffin]

The one thing I haven't read so far is folks realising that the reason you can't generally transplant systems from one house to another, room to room is that each system has been optimised for that first room. The room is part of the system not some nebulous afterthought.

I think often, the thing I saw when in the retail trade, was folks not having given any consideration to the room and what one could do with it or not. In the main folks wanting speakers way too big or way too small for the type of room. In my view the room is the foundation upon which everything else sits and every system must be picked, tuned to that room for the system to work to its best.

However the problem then is no room is going to be the same as the next and the chances are very slim the original system will be a shoe in for the new room. Perhaps a change in speakers will do it but often its a root and branch change as every aspect needs altered to match the new room.


Regards Neil

My hifi component purchasing has been based on :-

Reading reviews
Some demo's of some of the stuff purchased
Trusting to luck
Buying because I thought I would like/need the component
Buying something for the sheer hell of it
Price (perhaps this should have been No1!!!!)

I suspect that a lot of people have done the same thing. Whether it all works together, or works together in your particular room is a lottery. You may be lucky - you may not.

Neil, you say that each system has to be optimised for that room. Without any knowledge of acoustics and how to measure your room (either with or without equipment - although without equipment I suspect it is impossible :D) it is a stab in the dark. You also say that prospective buyers haven't given any thought to the room where they will site their equipment. Is there any simple or foolproof way that the man in the street can do some calculations as to what is likely to work in their room before buying any equipment? Are we purely talking about speakers here or all components.

[Macca]

I would say that a near-field system with small speakers will work well in pretty much any room, providing you can live with the compromise. That's what I did when I lived in an old Victorian house with a cavernous but very difficult room.
But if you want a big, room -filling sound it is much harder to get right and even the source and amps can be a factor then. For example a bassy CD player or a power amp that is a bit loose in the bass can sometimes tip things the wrong way. At the moment I can change from having very dry, tight bass to warm, loose bass that occasionally verges on boomy just by swapping power amps.

[doodoos]

Rooms can be a pain unless purpose built. Which is why I've taken to using decent cans for a lot of my listening, where the room issues count as squat doodly.

[Spectral Morn]

Neil, you say that each system has to be optimised for that room. Without any knowledge of acoustics and how to measure your room (either with or without equipment - although without equipment I suspect it is impossible :D) it is a stab in the dark. You also say that prospective buyers haven't given any thought to the room where they will site their equipment. Is there any simple or foolproof way that the man in the street can do some calculations as to what is likely to work in their room before buying any equipment? Are we purely talking about speakers here or all components.

Firstly I said 'often' not always, but many don't give any thought to the room, what its made of, the shape, floor type etc but some do.

I think it is possible but being honest my views are that this is the kind of service a first rate dealer can give, should give based on very many years of experience gained putting systems together and installing them which gives insight into how different rooms can affect audio. This service would be from room up, assessing the room and selecting suitable speakers and components to work within that room, and reflect the purchasers listening bias.

Measuring a room, identifying where the nodes are, resonance, refection points in walls, floor, windows etc are all things to do before picking a system. If the room is laminate floored, tiled, minimal etc all affect things too. Its not easy to do without the experience but reading a lot, getting experience of different types of acoustic and why they affect sound is all part of it and that is easy enough to do if one puts the effort in. Problem is many folks can't be bothered, they are happy to spend the money but not to have their room reordered to suit the reproduction of music to as high a standard as is possible. In saying that domestic harmony is a factor and compromise might be required - though not always ideal.

No components be they speaker or electronic are entirely neutral and thank goodness for that because many minimal bright rooms don't suit neutral lean electronics or speakers, to work with the room warmer less lean electronics or speakers will probably work better and vice versa. In saying that if the listener wants bright in the face sound, fair enough but that's not my idea of a well balanced sound and I think well balanced is what works best.

End of the day the only way to gauge all of this is to try the system in the room to be used but only try equipment and speakers which will likely suit the type of room. I guess its really only going to work if the room is a blank canvas and there is no system but sorting out issues with existing rooms/equipment choices is possible but requires experience.

So no easy way but not impossible.

My views are based on very many years in the audio trade, setting up numerous types of systems and sorting stuff out in my own less than ideal rooms. My first room had one solid front wall, boast plasterboard walls, sloped ceiling (low) and a crap floor that resonated like a drum skin. I put a system together that worked in concert with the room, system and room becoming the overall system. I concede I was very lucky as a 'Saturday Boy' back then, to have been able to borrow numerous bits of kit to try and a very open mind to try all manner of things to get everything to work in harmony. In away system and room became a kind of musical instrument.


Regards Neil

[Floyddroid]

Thanks for your comments on this matter everyone. I find it reassuring that i am not going mad and that i am not going mad and that other people have had similar problems. I do tend to think for some reason that my floor is the major reason for my problems though i would suspect that getting a concrete floor put in would cost a fortune. The comments above have given me a lot to think about. Cheers.

[Puffin]

Firstly I said 'often' not always, but many don't give any thought to the room, what its made of, the shape, floor type etc but some do.

I think it is possible but being honest my views are that this is the kind of service a first rate dealer can give, should give based on very many years of experience gained putting systems together and installing them which gives insight into how different rooms can affect audio. This service would be from room up, assessing the room and selecting suitable speakers and components to work within that room, and reflect the purchasers listening bias.

Regards Neil

I have never asked for a home demo of any kit I have ever purchased from a dealer (the last time was 1995). I saw dealers as Gods to be feared and always felt slightly intimidated in that "they knew it all" and I was fishing for a component that I knew nothing about and the amount I wanted to pay was probably deemed derisory and I doubt that they would have agreed to come to my home to see if it worked in my room/system. Correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding of taking stuff to home demo meant that I had to pay for it and bring it back in a certain time period if I didn't like it. I, probably mistakenly, assumed that if I didn't like it I could take something else and return it again. If nothing suited then I would get a refund?

The upshot of all this would be that I would feel an idiot, wasted their time, and was none the wiser for the experience. I would never return to that dealer.
I suspect that I have a jaundiced view of dealers and how they view punters, hence the fact that I have not visited one since 1995!

When you were installing systems what was the average spend? Did you ever take an Amplifier, CD Player or Speakers in isolation to a prospective purchasers home to see if it worked and to give advice on room/system interaction?

[Jimbo]

I have been lucky enough to hear what a professionally acoustically optimised room can do to a system and its not a small effect. If you want to hear exactly what your speakers/ system can achieve then only an acoustically modified room will do this, otherwise you will hear all the reflections and bass excessiveness your room will be adding to the sound. Its funny really when we talk about minute changes in cable performance or the differences between amplifiers or cartridges and yet your room will have a far greater influence on how your system sounds than almost anything else!

I am not saying you cannot hear these equipment changes in your own room as they will be relative to you room acoustic.

Rooms have a massive influence on system performance down to even small changes like curtains, carpets and furniture never mind the substrate of the building itself. The geometry and size will have huge effects and as others have mentioned, positioning of equipment in that room.

In the real world domestic environment it is always a compromise but this compromise is flexible depending on how far you want to go and how much strife you want to incur with your wife:)

Just moving your system from one room to another will tell you all you need to know about the acoustic influence you building and materials will have on your system performance. A lot of money is spent trying to ameliorate the effects a room has on sound but this is usually spent on changing equipment and not the room. I feel that this is the last part of system integration that has been woefully neglected by many including myself.

Ok, as I said it is domestically difficult sometimes to start including acoustic paneling in a room along with bass traps etc but to be honest these will greatly improve difficult acoustically challenged rooms and help bring back the sound you may be looking for from your system. After all we spend thousands on equipment but for most of us nothing at all on acoustic modifications which will be far cheaper than moving house:lol:

[Clive197]

Very interesting thread, the room the kit is being used in is a vital part of the system. This is why IMO shop DEMO's are a complete waste of time (with the possible exception of headphones). A lot of dealers recognise this and will allow home DEMO's subject to you leaving your credit card details with them.

I recall many an instance when I worked for Sevenoaks when a customer would insist on a dem and then after purchase bring it back with the excuse that it didn't sound right at home. All DEMO's do is prove that the shop display item works!

Show venues, usually in hotel rooms are worse as the room was never intended for listening to music and most often very expensive kit sounds the same as budget kit. Again I recall the time I heard a Russ Andrews dem of some entry level mains leads. Russ was busy swapping the leads back and forth and the audience of some 20 people all said that this was fabulous and could they buy one. Me I sat there smiling, I could not hear any difference at all. Just goes to show you how gullible some people are to the powers of suggestion.

Clive

[Reffc]

It's a good point worth underlining.

If never attempted, it's well worth having a room assessed. Many rooms that I visit are far from ideally set out, and a little advice seems to go a long way. Whilst for most of us, our rooms are also the family living room, that precludes making them resemble a recording studio with panels everywhere, but there are a few top tips to getting the best we can from our own spaces. I'll be drafting a brief guide on this very topic for the news page of my website soon, and hopefully that will help. Like any other complex problem (because that is what it is) it is best broken down into easily manageable lumps, and each bit considered one at a time. (I do however offer this as a service for anyone close-ish by)

[Clive197]

A well known adage......Location, Location, Location.

Clive

[Spectral Morn]

I have never asked for a home demo of any kit I have ever purchased from a dealer (the last time was 1995). I saw dealers as Gods to be feared and always felt slightly intimidated in that "they knew it all" and I was fishing for a component that I knew nothing about and the amount I wanted to pay was probably deemed derisory and I doubt that they would have agreed to come to my home to see if it worked in my room/system. Correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding of taking stuff to home demo meant that I had to pay for it and bring it back in a certain time period if I didn't like it. I, probably mistakenly, assumed that if I didn't like it I could take something else and return it again. If nothing suited then I would get a refund?

The upshot of all this would be that I would feel an idiot, wasted their time, and was none the wiser for the experience. I would never return to that dealer.
I suspect that I have a jaundiced view of dealers and how they view punters, hence the fact that I have not visited one since 1995!

When you were installing systems what was the average spend? Did you ever take an Amplifier, CD Player or Speakers in isolation to a prospective purchasers home to see if it worked and to give advice on room/system interaction?

All prices Rob, from sub Thousand Pound to massive amounts in the homes of Lords, I treated all the same. Yes that did happen and taking gear to a new room, system was often somewhat challenging and sometimes resulted in a non sale but that was par for the course. Much depended on the customer and their degree of open mindedness, I would try and advise best I could sometimes blind and suggest items that might be a better match than what they had in mind.

What HiFi 5Star blindness was a killer and often no amount of friendly advice would work and they would end up with a mismatched set up. Some time later same customers would return with a you were right lets try again - what a waste of money. We ran a free home loan scheme for customers we knew well, not taking credit card details but for newbies we did but didn't put it on the card - unless a sale was made. Details were taken including driving licence details, they signed a conditions of loan, liability form and off they went to try the item or items.

I would generally before making any suggestions try and get an idea of the room and work from there.

Any good dealer should never treat their potential customers in the way many do, poorly. I myself have been treated like dirt by a local AV dealer and a major London one when I called in to see what they had. An assessment was made re disposable income, worth to talk to and I was ignored, despite trying to talk to them about items I was interested in - major mistake to make on multiple levels. When I worked in the brown goods trade a colleague once dumped a dirty smelly farmer on me, I can't be bothered with this guy, you have him. End of the evening I had taken well over £4000 of him, 50 inch back projection TV, DVD player, cabling and a big Sony HiFi. While I counted the cash out in the credit room his sad wee face was pressed against the glass. But the thing is its not just about taking money, making a sale its about treating everyone the same and doing the job right, regardless of appearance, the car they drive, clothes they wear or their budget.




Regards Neil

[synsei]

Rooms can be system killers

Ain't that the truth. Worse still is that you spend yer hard-earned on equipment and then convince yourself that everything sounds a'reet until sommat occurs to burst that particular bubble. This happened to me recently when I bought a pair of Mission 760i's for a kitchen system, only to subsequently discover they sounded significantly more balanced and 'together' in the main system than either my DM2's or Skibo's and it's all down to the room rather than the speakers. Yer live and learn... :cool:

[Spectral Morn]

Ain't that the truth. Worse still is that you spend yer hard-earned on equipment and then convince yourself that everything sounds a'reet until sommat occurs to burst that particular bubble. This happened to me recently when I bought a pair of Mission 760i's for a kitchen system, only to subsequently discover they sounded significantly more balanced and 'together' in the main system than either my DM2's or Skibo's and it's all down to the room rather than the speakers. Yer live and learn... :cool:

Mostly but amplifier interface with the speakers re correct drive characteristic is also an issue.


Regards Neil

[Puffin]

All prices Rob, from sub Thousand Pound to massive amounts in the homes of Lords, I treated all the same.
But the thing is its not just about taking money, making a sale its about treating everyone the same and doing the job right, regardless of appearance, the car they drive, clothes they wear or their budget.

Regards Neil

It seems my experiences have tainted my view. What I have copied above shows that you were one of the good guys who are in it for customer satisfaction.

[Spectral Morn]

It seems my experiences have tainted my view. What I have copied above shows that you were one of the good guys who are in it for customer satisfaction.

Thank you I did my best, but I did have the odd off day. What motivated me was trying to get the same amazing listening experiences that I had in my listening room for my customers - that was it pure and simple to help them get the most out of the music they loved.

I miss my days in audio retailing but love selling books which is what I do these days, reading has been a passion since I was a young teenager as was listening to music. I have been very lucky to get to do jobs that tie in with some of my passions and none of them have been about the money, what money lol


Regards Neil

[StuN]

This makes for an interesting read:

http://ethanwiner.com/acoustics.html

[sumday]

ANDREI
one speaker in a shoebox!!!
of course when we were kids we had it tough.
we used to DREAM of living in a shoebox, we (all twenty of us) rented a soggy paper sack and the only source of music were one pair of headphones, MOTORHEADPHONES fed by a Amstrad with a ceramic cartridge.

but we were happy....mostly

nige.

[Macca]

Living in the shoe boxes I can sort of believe but the references to enjoying Amstrad equipment are stretching credibility to breaking point. Please everyone, cut down on the hyperbole. Thanks.

[Floyddroid]

Just been wondering if i have been kidding myself i can use the volume knob in the same position as in the old small room? I turned the volume knob to half way between 12 and one o'clock on the volume scale instead of my usual level and it was starting to sound more like it!

[synsei]

ANDREI
one speaker in a shoebox!!!
of course when we were kids we had it tough.
we used to DREAM of living in a shoebox, we (all twenty of us) rented a soggy paper sack and the only source of music were one pair of headphones, MOTORHEADPHONES fed by a Amstrad with a ceramic cartridge.

but we were happy....mostly

nige.

In my 'yoof' a mate swore by Amstrad gear (substitute 'by' for 'at' in my case) as he genuinely believed anything with LED metering sounded better regardless of cost. Sad but true... :doh: