“A little bird”… F.A.O chris@panteg

[Marco]

A little bird told me (and insisted) that to get the best or maxed out performance from a 1200mk2 doesn't actually cost that much ,outboard psu ,modified bearing ,platter etc , and that most of the aftermarket upgrades available now go in the wrong direction with fundamental design flaws , which seem to indicate a total lack of understanding of the original design . pretty controversial stuff (that word again).

I know I'd get lynched on AOS for stating this , not going to say who the little bird is but most can guess.


:guns: :acid:

:D :D

;)

Marco.

[Stratmangler]

Is the "little bird" trading again?
Did everybody get their gear back?

[Lynster]

I'm not sure if Chris is concerned about proverbial lynching because he listened to 'the little bird' or because he is concerned he may be associated with the view that most upgrades go in the wrong direction. I really can't understand that concept as I've seen few if any proposed mods that (to me) seem to be heading in the wrong direction.:scratch:

Put it this way, my philosophy has always been to get the most out of a TT first, then look at the arm and finally work through to cartridge improvement. This TT first approach is one of the main reasons I bought a Techy in the first place.:D The Techy is such a fantastically sound TT stock that it could certainly be said that nothing major needs to be done but in my opinion the bearing (robust as the original is) was its major weak point, hence the Mike New bearing. Sure I also upgraded the mat and feet, replaced the faulty high capacitance IC cabling (production change mistake) and put blutac under the magnet boss to stop some ringing though at this stage, no upgraded platter. Also, rightly or wrongly, I did buy the original Timestep PSU which I still use. But surely none of this including the platter change is really altering the original TT design concept.

Arm and cartridge are a similar story. I've rewired the arm and added the KAB damper but even a different arm is not out of context with the original design as of course there was the Techy version sold without arm.

I still can't think of what mod's are available for the Techy that lack understanding of the original design or exhibit obvious flaws but maybe that's just me.:doh:

[Andrei]

One 'upgrade' that Chris may have in mind is the platter. The stock platter is undoubtedly resonant and needs damping. Well and good if there is an aftermarket platter that does this. There are turntable makers, eg clearaudio, where as you go up their range you get a bearing that has opposing magnets. The sensible idea behind this is to reduce friction and rumble. One has to pay a lot of money for this feature. So if the replacement platter is heavier than the original then it could well be said to be going in the wrong direction.

[Marco]

Hence why I moved from using the super-heavy MN aluminium platter to the ETP, which weighs the same as the stock platter, but isn’t horribly resonant and doesn’t impart a zingy ‘metallic’ sonic signature onto the music, no matter how much aftermarket damping/mats are added to help ameliorate the effect.

Other than that, like you say, there are no modifications which have “fundamental design flaws” and take the Technics “in the wrong direction” (let’s see some evidence to support that claim) - quite the opposite: the best ones simply allow the superb motor unit, beautifully designed by Matsushita Electric all those years ago, to realise its full performance potential, which is precisely why others and I do what we do! :)

The problem is that Chris is being brainwashed by his ‘guru’ from Vantage Audio [apologies, Chris, but that’s the impression you give], who a) I don’t believe has ever heard a Technics SL-1200 or 1210, fitted with ALL the modifications he appears to so strongly disapprove of (say, MN bearing and ETP platter, Paul Hynes PSU, etc) and compared it directly with one of his own modified Technics T/Ts, b) clearly has his own commercial agendas, which in my opinion is precisely why he ‘disses’ perfectly good products designed by other manufacturers, and c) couldn’t run a business to save himself (as evidenced by his past less than professional behaviour, well documented here and elsewhere).

The other thing that gets me with the discussion on pfm is folk spouting nonsense about what the Technics is capable of, sonically, from a position of virtual ignorance.

Let me say this: if anyone is genuinely curious about comparing a stock or lightly modified SL-1200 or 1210 with a ‘pimped to the max’ version (or indeed any other turntable against the latter), then contact me, and they will be most welcome to either bring their T/T round, chez-moi, and compare it to mine (where they will be duly fed and watered), or I will bring my T/T over to their place, anywhere in mainland UK, at my expense.

The trouble is, whenever I ‘throw down the gauntlet’ like that, no-one ever has the balls/desire to pick it up... Instead, they would rather write ill-informed bollocks on forums, from the safety of their keyboards, and revel in their ignorance, or accept so-called ‘wisdom’ from others as fact, simply because it makes them feel good or confirms their prejudices ;)

Marco.

[JazzBones]

Hence why I moved from using the super-heavy MN aluminium platter to the ETP, which weighs the same as the stock platter, but isn’t horribly resonant and doesn’t impart a zingy ‘metallic’ sonic signature onto the music, no matter how much aftermarket damping/mats are added to help ameliorate the effect.

Other than that, like you say, there are no modifications which have “fundamental design flaws” and take the Technics “in the wrong direction” (let’s see some evidence to support that claim) - quite the opposite: the best ones simply allow the superb motor unit, beautifully designed by Matsushita Electric all those years ago, to realise its full performance potential, which is precisely why others and I do what we do! :)

The problem is that Chris is being brainwashed by his ‘guru’ from Vantage Audio [apologies, Chris, but that’s the impression you give], who a) I don’t believe has ever heard a Technics SL-1200 or 1210, fitted with ALL the modifications he appears to so strongly disapprove of (say, MN bearing and ETP platter, Paul Hynes PSU, etc) and compared it directly with one of his own modified Technics T/Ts, b) clearly has his own commercial agendas, which in my opinion is precisely why he ‘disses’ perfectly good products designed by other manufacturers, and c) couldn’t run a business to save himself (as evidenced by his past less than professional behaviour, well documented here and elsewhere).

The other thing that gets me with the discussion on pfm is folk spouting nonsense about what the Technics is capable of, sonically, from a position of virtual ignorance.

Let me say this: if anyone is genuinely curious about comparing a stock or lightly modified SL-1200 or 1210 with a ‘pimped to the max’ version (or indeed any other turntable against the latter), then contact me, and they will be most welcome to either bring their T/T round, chez-moi, and compare it to mine (where they will be duly fed and watered), or I will bring my T/T over to their place, anywhere in mainland UK.

The trouble is, whenever I ‘throw down the gauntlet’ like that, no-one ever has the balls/desire to pick it up... Instead, they would rather write ill-informed bollocks on forums, from the safety of their keyboards, and revel in their ignorance, or accept so-called ‘wisdom’ from others as fact, simply because it makes them feel good or confirms their prejudices ;)

Lo'Marco, you may recall that it was me who bought your MN Cu/Al platter off you some two years ago and since its installation in MY SYSTEM and on/in my TT still provides unfailing musical satisfaction to this very day. This platter is in tandem with MN's bearing (a must) one of his first outputs and a very carefully installed MN bearing plate and to this very day still provides me with musical satisfaction that I always crave with non'stop listening sessions of 5 to 6 hours duration at a time where the platter in question is spinning/revolving without being stopped to switch LPs, same as my modded LP12. To this very date I have not had a problem with the platter being, so called 'Too heavy', as I believe that with Mike's knowledge of the SL12.. combined with his long standing engineering skills tells me he knows what he is doing.... why do you, from time to time. insist on dissing the Mike New Cu/Al platter and imply, directly/indirectly, as not fit for purpose... this is an impression that I and other Cu/Al platter users, including Mike, I assume, must arrive at?

As an aside I have heard Bob Isherwood's DD Monarch TT, based on a SL12.. etc, and it sounds wonderful, and this with different quality tonearms and cartridges. I think he uses an Ali platter which is heavier than the stock one... so, NO, I don't go along with Chris P's friend and guru saying that the SL12.. can't be bettered other than some very basic work to stock platter and stock bearing, he is/was selling his own improvements to a small but enthusiastic market place.

I'm not into having shoot outs as to whose TT is the very best, I don't care, its a bit like pissing up the school wall to see who can go the highest, and I'm not into being sprayed by a competitors piddle, I don't trust everyone's aim, ho hum and so forth.

Not every one is going to agree with you or follow your teachings and I sincerely hope you take this a genuine exchange of different thinking on the subject.

Cheers amigo,
Ron

[Marco]

Hi Ron,

How’s it hangin', muchacho? Hope all is well in your world :)


I'm not into having shoot outs as to whose TT is the very best, I don't care, its a bit like pissing up the school wall to see who can go the highest, and I'm not into being sprayed by a competitors piddle, I don't trust everyone's aim, ho hum and so forth.

Not every one is going to agree with you or follow your teachings……….


It's not about the latter (perish the thought), or ‘shoot-outs’, but rather about mutual learning and thus basing one’s opinion on the practical experience of listening, rather than what your ‘engineer’s head' or prejudices tell you is ‘right’ or ‘wrong’, or what someone who claims to be a technical authority on the matter (and produces competing products for modifying the Technics) deems as ‘correct’.

That’s all I ask: that your opinion on the sonic prowess of a fully modified SL-1200 or 1210 is based on the practical experience of listening, and making relevant comparisons with known references. That way your opinion on the matter has some credibility. That’s how I’ve formed my opinions on the subject, and also by testing my T/T against all manner of different turntables, new and old, some costing far in excess of what it does! It’s the only way you learn.

I wouldn't dream of commenting on the performance capabilities of any turntable that I wasn't familiar with, and so I expect the same from others. Therefore, if you haven’t heard an SL-1200 or 1210 modified in the way mine has been, or yours, or that of any others here who use Technics T/Ts, then don’t make ill-informed remarks about them - it’s that simple!

However, I get the impression that some folk don’t really want to learn or gain experience, and instead would rather cocoon themselves within their comfort zone, than be confronted with the possibility that their rather ingrained opinions, after having being subjected to scrutiny, are not as valid as they thought they were... ;)

That’s the reason why I made the offer to compare a stock/lightly modified Technics against my highly-modified version: to allow folk who genuinely want to extend their audio experience and perhaps discover something useful (as indeed I may also glean from the exercise), not to ‘willy-wave'. Therefore, those who would rather form their opinions on hearsay or entrenched personal bias/commercial agendas need not apply!

Interesting about the Monarch… I don’t doubt it sounds superb. Did you get a chance to compare it against your own T/T? :cool:

Marco.

[struth]

Have heard a standard 1200 and thought it pretty darn good, but never heard a fettled one to date. One day I might though, although may have to do it myself...my next project maybe?

[JazzBones]

Hi Ron,

How’s it hangin', muchacho? Hope all is well in your world:)



It's not about the latter (perish the though), or ‘shoot-outs’, but rather about mutual learning and thus basing one’s opinion on the practical experience of listening, rather than what your ‘engineer’s head' or prejudices tell you is ‘right’ or ‘wrong’, or what someone who claims to be a technical authority on the matter (and produces competing products for modifying the Technics) deems as ‘correct’.

That’s all I ask: that your opinion on the sonic prowess of a fully modified SL-1200 or 1210 is based on the practical experience of listening, and making relevant comparisons with known references. That way your opinion on the matter has some credibility.

I wouldn't dream of commenting on the performance capabilities of any turntable that I wasn't familiar with, and so expect others to do the same. Therefore, if you haven’t heard an SL-1200 or 1210 modified in the way mine has been, or yours, or that of any others here who use Technics T/Ts, then don’t make ill-informed remarks about them - it’s that simple!

However, I get the impression that some folk don’t really want to learn or gain experience, and instead would rather cocoon themselves within their comfort zone, than be confronted with the possibility that their rather ingrained opinions are not as valid as they thought they were... ;)

That’s the reason why I made the offer to compare a stock/lightly modified Technics against my highly modified version: to allow folk who genuinely want to extend their audio experience and perhaps discover something useful (as indeed I may also glean from the exercise), not to ‘willy-wave'. Therefore, those who would rather form their opinions on hearsay or entrenched personal bias/commercial agendas need not apply.

Interesting about the Monarch… I don’t doubt it sounds superb. Did you get a chance to compare it against your own T/T? :cool:

Marco.

Yo'Marco, thanks for the friendly reply, after sending my epistle I thought to myself you may chew me balls off as it were, foolish really as you don't know where they have been :). First and foremost, thanks for a considered and very valid response and secondly, No I have not had the oppo to hear Bob's Monarch TT up against mine but his whole system would have been different including arm cartridge combos, amps used, at a show venue and so on. If I was a serious vinyl and turntable enthusiast
and the spondoodles to buy it, as opposed to getting out the spanners and soldering irons etc., I would seriously consider selling one of the kids or one of the wife's organs to finance the outlay. I am a coward so my own would remain intact to enable continued and comfortable listening.

You may or may not be interested in knowing that after many experiments with mats, including the resomat, I now use two Achromats bonded together... giving me a 10mm Achro bonded to the MN Al/Cu platter with high spec Vasso, none of your cheap Aldi stuff, only the best must be used for turntables and sex say I ;). This leaves me with sufficient spindle clearance to safely accommodate my Furetech record stabilzer. Kruger Doc on here uses a Boston carbon graphite mat 2 at 5mm thick. Both add a little bit more weight to the platter. The Furatech weighs in at 350grams but I will add is an expensive weight but we are all stoopidoo obver these things 'ent we?

Still hanging in there low, in fact so low I use longer shorts :D

Ronio

[prestonchipfryer]

My own modding an SL.... journey has seen the Technics going in the right direction, for me anyway. MN Bearing, MN ETP platter, MCRU Long Dog psu, SME V, Ortofon 2M Black, Isonoe feet and Tecchy Boots is how my TT now stands, or rather PLAYS MUSIC in a way that keeps me listening for hours. With all these mods I fail to see how anyone can say it's the wrong direction for the SL12.... Different planet springs to mind.

[Marco]

Indeed, but the stubbornly entrenched and uninitiated often have entirely different goals than actually learning something new!

Marco.

[synsei]

Indeed, but the stubbornly entrenched and uninitiated often have entirely different goals than actually learning something new!

Marco.

Does personal preference have a say in this or are we all expected to dance to the same tune? What a boring old world this would be if that were the case. ;)

[Marco]

Does personal preference have a say in this or are we all expected to dance to the same tune?

I don’t believe anyone’s saying that though, Dave - least of all me. My message is simply to form your opinions on any piece of audio equipment through the practical experience of listening. If you don’t possess any (or very little) of that, in relation to a specific piece of kit, then it’s best to keep yer gob zipped about it! ;)

Marco.

[synsei]

I don’t believe anyone’s saying that though, Dave - least of all me. My message is simply to form your opinions on any piece of audio equipment through the practical experience of listening. If you don’t possess any (or very little) of that, in relation to a specific product, then it’s best to keep yer gob zipped about it! ;)

Marco.

Ah good, I'm glad we got sorted that out then, now I feel far more comfortable continuing with my contributions to this thread... :cool:

[JazzBones]

My own modding an SL.... journey has seen the Technics going in the right direction, for me anyway. MN Bearing, MN ETP platter, MCRU Long Dog psu, SME V, Ortofon 2M Black, Isonoe feet and Tecchy Boots is how my TT now stands, or rather PLAYS MUSIC in a way that keeps me listening for hours. With all these mods I fail to see how anyone can say it's the wrong direction for the SL12.... Different planet springs to mind.

How do John, I would put big money on your deck for being a top gun and completion of its upgrade journey or as near to it as anyone is likely to get and I bet its a good'un. That LongDog PSU is a beaut and was my second choice after my TimeStep shunt T-01PSU, I've been through all their previous ones but this one is the biz for me and I would say I've reached my journey's end on this TT, maybe a diff cartridge in the future? I have heard snippets of other psu, some straight forward some overly complex but what I have I'm happy to live happily ever after with. By the way Last time I met the Long Dog psu it was doing the biz for me but the psu did run a bit warmish for me, is this the case (no pun) with you?

[prestonchipfryer]

How do John, I would put big money on your deck for being a top gun and completion of its upgrade journey or as near to it as anyone is likely to get and I bet its a good'un. That LongDog PSU is a beaut and was my second choice after my TimeStep shunt T-01PSU, I've been through all their previous ones but this one is the biz for me and I would say I've reached my journey's end on this TT, maybe a diff cartridge in the future? I have heard snippets of other psu, some straight forward some overly complex but what I have I'm happy to live happily ever after with. By the way Last time I met the Long Dog psu it was doing the biz for me but the psu did run a bit warmish for me, is this the case (no pun) with you?

My LD doesn't run warm at all. As for the rest of my Tech 12.... journey then perhaps the MN bearing base plate would be next. But I would need someone to fit it as I would not be confident to do it myself. I have the original TS psu and the LD psu walks all over it. So, apart from the base plate I am very happy with my SL12.... and, yes, it does sound really good. What cartridge would you be interested in? I have a Lyra Dorian that I occasionally use and this too is excellent.

[Marco]

My LD doesn't run warm at all. As for the rest of my Tech 12.... journey then perhaps the MN bearing base plate would be next. But I would need someone to fit it as I would not be confident to do it myself.

You could ask Dave Cawley to fit it for you….. :eek:

:eyebrows: :eyebrows:

Marco.

[prestonchipfryer]

You could ask Dave Cawley to fit it for you….. :eek:

:eyebrows: :eyebrows:

Marco.

:spank:

[Wakefield Turntables]

Lo'Marco, you may recall that it was me who bought your MN Cu/Al platter off you some two years ago and since its installation in MY SYSTEM and on/in my TT still provides unfailing musical satisfaction to this very day. This platter is in tandem with MN's bearing (a must) one of his first outputs and a very carefully installed MN bearing plate and to this very day still provides me with musical satisfaction that I always crave with non'stop listening sessions of 5 to 6 hours duration at a time where the platter in question is spinning/revolving without being stopped to switch LPs, same as my modded LP12. To this very date I have not had a problem with the platter being, so called 'Too heavy', as I believe that with Mike's knowledge of the SL12.. combined with his long standing engineering skills tells me he knows what he is doing.... why do you, from time to time. insist on dissing the Mike New Cu/Al platter and imply, directly/indirectly, as not fit for purpose... this is an impression that I and other Cu/Al platter users, including Mike, I assume, must arrive at?


To my ears the Cu/Al platter is the best by a long way. I heard the latest MN platter and only noticed a very small improvement in what I heard in my system in fact the ebony armboard provided a bigger leg up the sonic ladder.

[JazzBones]

From the varied contributions to this thread it shows me that there are varied and different ways we have fettled our Techos each one giving its owner musical enjoyment so there is absolutely no absolute one way of doing this in my mind.

John (Prestonchipfryer), the original TS psu was a starter to my journey but its big bro, the one I use, is in a different league. Glad to know that your LD does not run hot'warm, not that mattered at all to me, but refinements have obviously been made. The MN bearing plate is not a difficult job but requires knowledge in using a drill correctly, using the right drill bits etc., if you go the five bolt route but Mike New now provides his BP sans holes for using industrial grade araldite adhesive which allows more time to make fine adjustments until bang on correct. Mike New does provide clear instructions, well he did with mine, which are easy to follow but if you want to play safe get someone who is practised and confident in doing these jobs. MartinT of our tribe can probably give you a few pointers as he has done both drilling and glueing. Cartridge wise I already use various ATs and a Koetsu Black and hope to one day own a Koetsu Red Signature K fronting a Graham Phantom II Supreme tonearm but that will have to be just a hopeful dream.

Andrew (Rexton)... read your write up with interest and its nice to know there are those of us who prefer the Al/Cu platter but if push comes to shove and the Al/Cu was not available could live with the ETP, The Funky thing, or plain old DIYing the stock platter... its a question and conclusion as to what we like best (for us). I don't doubt that the man from Vantage Audio was able to get high performance from his endeavours but something went wrong somewhere and trust went elsewhere.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Andrew (Rexton)... read your write up with interest and its nice to know there are those of us who prefer the Al/Cu platter but if push comes to shove and the Al/Cu was not available could live with the ETP, The Funky thing, or plain old DIYing the stock platter... its a question and conclusion as to what we like best (for us). I don't doubt that the man from Vantage Audio was able to get high performance from his endeavours but something went wrong somewhere and trust went elsewhere.

Each system will sound different. My Cu/Al platter sits in a solid state system that has a pair of fully active speakers which are paper coned and a massive PS Audio P10 mains regeneration system. My tonearm, cart and phonostage are considerably different to lets say Marco's and a world apart from lets say MartinT who used to frequent this forum. We all own massively updated 1210's but own three masively different systems. I honestly dont know how anyone can make comparative comments with lets say other people's systems (and before we get handbags out I'm not suggesting this) but I think it's fair that comments are made within the context of one's own system (which I try to do). I find comments which are scornful or dimissive or which belittle others pointless and generally showing a lack of intelligence. Fortunately that dosen't tend to happen here and most comments are generally thoughtful of others or genreally helpful in nature.