View Full Version : Audio Technica: ATOC9 MLII vs AT33PTG vs AT33EV
It's all in the title really.
My OC9, after lying in it's box in a drawer for quite some time, went into my system a couple of weeks ago and sounded a whole lot better than I remembered. I'll mention sweetness, detail and clarity as indicators of what impressed me.
I'd retired it from a previous set up which has now been totally changed (new T/T, arm and phono). Most of the things I'd been severely critical of, poor bass performance and an overly bright presentation just weren't there. I'm even more convinced now that judging these components in isolation will not get you to where you want to be. My conclusion is that putting this cartridge into a different chain has changed it's character dramatically.
I'm encouraged enough to look at AT cartridges again but have no idea how the 33PTG and 33EV stack up against the OC9.
Can anyone categorise the differences for me, or point me to a thread where this has been discussed?
I think I may turning into a serial cartridge buyer.
walpurgis
27-08-2014, 10:16
Sounds like you may have had a tonearm mismatch. Too little mass maybe? Or sometimes you get items that are just not happy together for no apparent reason.
I think you're spot on. It was a Techno Arm A with a TriChord Diablo. Lovely components in their own right but not together with an OC9.
phonomac
27-08-2014, 12:43
Hello there,
I changed from an Ortofon MC25FL to a Denon DL304, which gave me better detail, but maybe not as much 'bite' on dynamics. I then tried an ATOC9 MLII which maintained the detail and brought back the impact. I rate the OC9 MLII very highly, but I would believe that it can sound a bit strident if not used in the right system (for reference I used it with a Technics SP-15/Audio Technica AT1010/Denon HA-500 head amp combination). Incidentally I think that front-end bandwidth and overload margin has a great deal of influence on how cartridges sound. The HA-500 has both in spades.
I then arranged for NWA to upgrade another OC9 MLII with the Fritz Geiger stylus and that leads to another detail enhancement. However, while the second OC9 MLII was being re-tipped I had the opportunity to buy an AT33PTG/II and that relegated both OC9s to the cartridge/headshell storage box (where they both still live!). Everything that the OC9 MLII does well the AT33PTG/II builds on. The OC9 gave brilliant plucked transients on strings for example (from orchestral to rock guitar) and the AT33PTG/II matches it, but gives you more extension at both ends of the frequency spectrum. It's not an OC9 MLII on steroids because that to me would imply a brasher bolder sound, which it doesn't have. It just gave me more of everything that I liked about the OC9 MLII.
I've never heard the AT33EV, but I would expect slightly less detail, and from various comments around the web a somewhat softer sound.
regards
Angus
Another cartridge to try, if you like that uber-detailed, sweet sounding, big wide-open presentation of top low-output MC cartridges, is the Denon DL-S1, which to my ears outperforms the (undoubtedly excellent) OC-9 and 33-PTG in all areas, bringing a clarity and precision to proceedings (along with a beguilingly infectious musicality) unmatched by any cartridge I’ve heard out with of the AudioNote Io.
The incredible sense of dynamics and rich, spacious musicality is simply stunning. For £500, it's an absolute steal! :)
It’s a demanding cartridge, though, so a top-notch (high-gain) phono stage, due to the Denon’s very low output of 0.15mV, and tonearm, are mandatory. Importing from either the USA or Japan is necessary: http://www.lpgear.com/product/DENONDLS1.html
Marco.
Hello there,
.........I then arranged for NWA to upgrade another OC9 MLII with the Fritz Geiger stylus and that leads to another detail enhancement. However, while the second OC9 MLII was being re-tipped I had the opportunity to buy an AT33PTG/II and that relegated both OC9s to the cartridge/headshell storage box (where they both still live!). Everything that the OC9 MLII does well the AT33PTG/II builds on. The OC9 gave brilliant plucked transients on strings for example (from orchestral to rock guitar) and the AT33PTG/II matches it, but gives you more extension at both ends of the frequency spectrum. It's not an OC9 MLII on steroids because that to me would imply a brasher bolder sound, which it doesn't have. It just gave me more of everything that I liked about the OC9 MLII.
I've never heard the AT33EV, but I would expect slightly less detail, and from various comments around the web a somewhat softer sound.
regards
Angus
Angus, thanks for your very detailed reply which tends to support many of the comments I've come across from quite a broad spectrum of reading. There aren't many that have a bad word to say about the PTG although reviews and opinions regarding the OC9 can be a bit mixed. Whether it's the cart or system synergy I guess we'll all have a view on.
There are some PTG's available from Japan at present that are low enough in price to be worth a punt - providing there's a reasonable basis of sound expectation, which I'm starting to get: and also assuming HMRC treat me gently (or preferably not at all). What I don't want to buy is another OC9, which although much improved from my previous experience still isn't where I want to be. I'm looking for the slam and attack of a well controlled bass together with sweetness and detail at the top.
Don't want much do I.........?
Another cartridge to try, if you like that uber-detailed, sweet sounding, big wide-open presentation of top low-output MC cartridges, is the Denon DL-S1, which to my ears outperforms the (undoubtedly excellent) OC-9 and 33-PTG in all areas, bringing a clarity and precision to proceedings (along with a beguilingly infectious musicality) unmatched by any cartridge I’ve heard out with of the AudioNote Io.
The incredible sense of dynamics and rich, spacious musicality is simply stunning. For £500, it's an absolute steal! :)
It’s a demanding cartridge, though, so a top-notch (high-gain) phono stage, due to the Denon’s very low output of 0.15mV, and tonearm, are mandatory. Importing from either the USA or Japan is necessary: http://www.lpgear.com/product/DENONDLS1.html
Marco.
Thanks Marco, that's quite a recommendation. Is it likely to sit happily in my SME IV?
0.15mV does seem at the low end of low to me: my gut feeling is that my Icon Audio PS3 will cope but I do like to turn the wick up sometimes and I don't want to run out of steam. The PS3 goes directly into my Musical Fidelity poweramp - not via the preamp.
I suppose a big plus with the Denon is that it's available from 2juki who is without doubt one of the best overseas suppliers you could ever hope to come across.
My experience with higher price cartridges has not been totally satisfactory. A Shelter 5000 didn't cut it (smooth and detailed but light presentation) and the Benz I have is well mannered and detailed but missing the full on, balls out exhilaration that should come with recordings of live performances. Lacking the raw edge and presence .
My SAE 1000LT comes closest but at 2.5 mV it's output isn't a natural match for either the MM or the MC input on my phono stage and I'd still like to think that there's something out there that will cover everything I'm looking for............... Some hope.
I hadn't really considered the DL-S1. I'll take a deeper look. Thanks for the suggestion.
Hi Bob,
Thanks Marco, that's quite a recommendation. Is it likely to sit happily in my SME IV?
Yup, that should be a great match.
0.15mV does seem at the low end of low to me: my gut feeling is that my Icon Audio PS3 will cope but I do like to turn the wick up sometimes and I don't want to run out of steam. The PS3 goes directly into my Musical Fidelity poweramp - not via the preamp.
That’s definitely something you’d have to consider. Does the Icon have an MM input?
If so, you could use the DL-S1 with a head amp or an SUT (and there are some excellent examples of both around now), either of which will ensure there is sufficient gain, and also in my experience, allow the partnering cartridge to release its full potential in a way that escapes the vast majority of standalone MC phono stages.
I suppose a big plus with the Denon is that it's available from 2juki who is without doubt one of the best overseas suppliers you could ever hope to come across.
Indeed, the guy is top-notch and always a joy to deal with. If only all international sellers were like him! It’s where I obtained my DL-S1.
I hadn't really considered the DL-S1. I'll take a deeper look. Thanks for the suggestion.
If you can get the phono stage requirements right, I think you’d love it, as it has a magical way of music-making that really touches the soul, and makes most other cartridges sound ‘artificially forced'. You may find this thread interesting:
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?31661-Just-pulled-the-trigger-on-one-of-these-babies&highlight=pulled+trigger
Marco.
chris@panteg
27-08-2014, 18:07
I use an AT33EV, in a SME 309, mounted on my 1210, I would describe its balance as on the warmish side, but it depends on the vinyl playing, very nice cartridge though I'd be tempted to try the DSL1 next.
I own a PTG, OC9ii and DL-S1. I rate the Denon as best and the OC9 second. All superb cartridges but I think that if the set up is correct, AT cartridges are not bright after the initial running in period.
The Denon represents the best value that I have found in new cartridges. It would be £2k - £3k if made by one of the smaller makers.
Rush2112
28-08-2014, 05:26
Hi Bob I have fond memories of my OC9 which at the time was on a Alphason Sonata TT Alphason HRS 100 MCS arm feeding a Musical Fidelity Pre3A followed by a short stint on my Pink Triangle Anniversary SME V feeding a Michell ISO / Hera before being replaced by a Ortofon MC3000S which is still one of my favourite cartridges!
Thanks Marco, looks like I have to consider the Denon option.
Does the Icon have an MM input?
Yes, MM and MC, as does my Musical Fidelity preamp although they're a lot different in what they deliver.
If so, you could use the DL-S1 with a head amp or an SUT (and there are some excellent examples of both around now), either of which will ensure there is sufficient gain, and also in my experience, allow the partnering cartridge to release its full potential in a way that escapes the vast majority of standalone MC phono stages.
So what suggestions for a head amp or SUT could you throw my way to raise the gain should it prove necessary? Or even maybe just to get the best out of the cartridge as you suggest? I've often pondered the question of SUT's giving an advantage over just stand alone phono stages.
My Icon unit is as silent as it gets all the way up: in fact the quietest phono stage I've ever had and I'd be loathe to put anything in the chain that compromised this, so hums, buzzes and extraneous noise would be a major annoyance.
If you can get the phono stage requirements right, I think you’d love it, as it has a magical way of music-making that really touches the soul, and makes most other cartridges sound ‘artificially forced'. You may find this thread interesting:
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showt...pulled+trigger
I'm working my way through this thread again. I remember reading it a while back but it has more significance now: it also has quite a few additional pages!
One final open question. Cartridge choosing is a difficult pursuit and unless auditions are available (rare these days) we are reliant upon the words and opinions of others on forums such as this. Can anyone categorise the qualities of the DL-S1 against something I am familiar with - the Benz Micro Wood SL?
I use an AT33EV, in a SME 309, mounted on my 1210, I would describe its balance as on the warmish side, but it depends on the vinyl playing, very nice cartridge though I'd be tempted to try the DSL1 next.
Thanks Chris, looks like the DL-S1 is gathering quite a few votes. Your comment of the AT33EV being warmish is interesting. Not something I've ever associated with AT carts, but then I've only been exposed to a few. Do you think it's the cart or the rest of your system that pushes this characteristic?
I own a PTG, OC9ii and DL-S1. I rate the Denon as best and the OC9 second. All superb cartridges but I think that if the set up is correct, AT cartridges are not bright after the initial running in period.
Geoff, this is exactly what I was hoping to tap into with my original question. Can I ask why you'd rate the OC9 over the PTG?
The Denon represents the best value that I have found in new cartridges. It would be £2k - £3k if made by one of the smaller makers.
That's quite a recommendation. It must have impressed you.
Hi Bob I have fond memories of my OC9 which at the time was on a Alphason Sonata TT Alphason HRS 100 MCS arm feeding a Musical Fidelity Pre3A followed by a short stint on my Pink Triangle Anniversary SME V feeding a Michell ISO / Hera before being replaced by a Ortofon MC3000S which is still one of my favourite cartridges!
Mark, was there anything in particular about it's performance that made you move on from the OC9...............?
Geoff, this is exactly what I was hoping to tap into with my original question. Can I ask why you'd rate the OC9 over the PTG?
That's quite a recommendation. It must have impressed you.
The OC9ii is an outstanding tracker at 1.75 to begin then at 1.6. It drags detail from the groove and I found its treble a little sweeter than the PTG after the initial run in.
The DL-S1 is superb. Marco heard it at mine first!
chris@panteg
28-08-2014, 09:40
Thanks Chris, looks like the DL-S1 is gathering quite a few votes. Your comment of the AT33EV being warmish is interesting. Not something I've ever associated with AT carts, but then I've only been exposed to a few. Do you think it's the cart or the rest of your system that pushes this characteristic?
Hi Bob, that's a very good question, I did think maybe my Marantz Pearl lite amp or its phono stage might be a touch on the warm side but back in April I was able to try it through Paul's of RFC system, with his excellent Rhapsody speakers, if anything the Marantz sounded a bit bright.
Other variables might be the speaker cable and other cable's? The thing is some recordings still sound quite bright others a touch too warm, so I find myself using the tone controls on occasions.
337alant
28-08-2014, 10:32
I have an AT 33EV and I was a bit disappointed when I got it and hoped it would improve when it was run in but it didn't, I found it doesn't do anything wrong but its a bit smooth and bland to me certainly not bright
I used it with my 100ohm loading on an Michel Orbe with Audiomods Tonearm I still have it but started using a Ortofon MC25FL as I preferred the leaner balance with better bass impact. My son snapped the cantilever on the Ortofon so I then got an ortofon Kontrapunkt B which I still own this is in a different league to the outher cart but has a balance similar to the MC25Fl so some much more refinement and subtlety
I have never heard the 33PTG but that is what I was looking for when I bought the 33EV but I just could not find one anywhere at the time
I have heard the OC9 mk? on a mates Linn LP12 MF the pre Amp and loved the dynamic and open presentation but could not have lived with the piercing treble, cant say what loading was used though which can make a significant difference
Alan
Thanks Marco, looks like I have to consider the Denon option.
So what suggestions for a head amp or SUT could you throw my way to raise the gain should it prove necessary? Or even maybe just to get the best out of the cartridge as you suggest? I've often pondered the question of SUT's giving an advantage over just stand alone phono stages.
Well, what’s your budget? SUT-wise, it’s hard to ignore Denon’s own matching transformer, the AU-S1, which is widely available, used, on ebay from selected Japanese sellers.
I’d also expect the SPU version of the Auditorium 23 to work very well with the DL-S1, as both cartridges share similar electrical requirements, and an SUT ‘voiced’ for an SPU should suit a DL-S1 quite well. Bob’s Devices, in the States, also do a range of bespoke-made SUTs, which are very competitively priced and sound superb.
In terms of MC head amps, the Albarry MCA-11 is a fabulous sounding device, which I can confirm works superbly well with valve MM phono stages, and again could be internally configured to optimally match the requirements of the DL-S1, although it should sound really good in stock form. Also, Paul Hynes (of this parish) would design a suitable head amp for you, in order to optimise the DL-S1 and integrate with the Icon.
In my opinion, the results you’d obtain by doing either of the above would be an ear-opener! :)
My Icon unit is as silent as it gets all the way up: in fact the quietest phono stage I've ever had and I'd be loathe to put anything in the chain that compromised this, so hums, buzzes and extraneous noise would be a major annoyance.
Adding a properly designed, high-quality SUT and/or head amp to your system shouldn’t introduce any further noise, providing that it is properly located in your system, correctly earthed, and placed well away from any sources of magnetic fields (such as large mains transformers).
One final open question. Cartridge choosing is a difficult pursuit and unless auditions are available (rare these days) we are reliant upon the words and opinions of others on forums such as this. Can anyone categorise the qualities of the DL-S1 against something I am familiar with - the Benz Micro Wood SL?
Sorry, can’t help you with that one, as I’m unfamiliar with the Benz. However, if you wish, I could do so in reference to the OC9 and 33PTG, both of which I am familiar with.
Marco.
My one and only experience of the AT0C9 didn't last very long. It didn't have to to tell me it would grate with it's shrill and rather unrefined treble and that was properly set up. Nowhere near as bad as the original Mk1 and Mk2 Sumio BPS cartridges which were truly awful in that respect (not to be confused with the BPS Evo which was much better), but I found it uncouth and shrill. AT33EV better in almost every respect and a really good cartridge imho.
Paul, you also make SUTs, don’t you? Perhaps if Bob goes for a DL-S1 you could produce a suitable SUT for him? :)
Marco.
Paul, you also make SUTs, don’t you? Perhaps if Bob goes for a DL-S1 you could produce a suitable SUT for him? :)
Marco.
Not a problem. If memory serves correct, that's a very low output and highish impedance model, but yes, a custom loaded SUT with Zobel could be built for that.
There you go then, another option for Bob! :)
Specs here, Paul, for the DL-S1:
Output: 0.15mV
Output Impedance: 40ohms
Frequency range: 20Hz-70kHz
Tracking force: 1.1-1.5g
Compliance 14x10-6cm/dyne.
Marco.
Well, what’s your budget? SUT-wise, it’s hard to ignore Denon’s own matching transformer, the AU-S1, which is widely available, used, on ebay from selected Japanese sellers.
I’d also expect the SPU version of the Auditorium 23 to work very well with the DL-S1, as both cartridges share similar electrical requirements, and an SUT ‘voiced’ for an SPU should suit a DL-S1 quite well. Bob’s Devices, in the States, also do a range of bespoke-made SUTs, which are very competitively priced and sound superb.
In terms of MC head amps, the Albarry MCA-11 is a fabulous sounding device, which I can confirm works superbly well with valve MM phono stages, and again could be internally configured to optimally match the requirements of the DL-S1, although it should sound really good in stock form. Also, Paul Hynes (of this parish) would design a suitable head amp for you, in order to optimise the DL-S1 and integrate with the Icon.
In my opinion, the results you’d obtain by doing either of the above would be an ear-opener! :)
Adding a properly designed, high-quality SUT and/or head amp to your system shouldn’t introduce any further noise, providing that it is properly located in your system, correctly earthed, and placed well away from any sources of magnetic fields (such as large mains transformers).
Sorry, can’t help you with that one, as I’m unfamiliar with the Benz. However, if you wish, I could do so in reference to the OC9 and 33PTG, both of which I am familiar with.
Marco.
Thanks for your time in doing this Marco. I spent most of my waking hours yesterday going through your DL-S1 thread again, but I'll try and take the points more or less in order.
Well, what’s your budget?
Budget can be quite flexible if the product and results are right. I realise that's no answer and not very helpful, but I'd rather buy once and buy well than have to keep revisiting the situation because I wish Id...........
But to put some sort of scope on it let's say £500 for a Head Amp or SUT taken on faith, more if I can be convinced that it's a "Magic Bullet" solution that resolves all my woes and takes things to a new level? If I spend a bit more I'd ideally like something that's not locked in to one particular cartridge so some flexibilty would be preferred without resorting to getting the soldering iron out.
But I have a question: what will a Head Amp do for me that a SUT won't (and vice versa) and should I favour one over the other? I'm only just starting to look at these things and don't understand the difference.
I've been scouting around for some of the suggestions you've made and you don't exactly find yourself tripping over them. Even used examples. Bob's Devices is an interesting site though.
........... I could do so in reference to the OC9 and 33PTG, both of which I am familiar with.
A few words on this would be helpful if you have the time please?
The only concerns I have after reading your thread on the DL-S1 are that it may lend itself more to classical music than rock, of which I play a fair amount. I'm sure it would clean up on some of the acoustic, folksy stuff but I'm left unsure whether this might be the best cart for bass driven bluesy music. Please don't get me wrong - I'm no boom bass fanatic, but I do like to be able to follow a strong taught bass line in the music: it's what draws me in and gets me totally absorbed.
I like your descriptive adjectives regarding "it also handles acoustic material (rock or classical - chamber and choral music is also hauntingly atmospheric" but am left in doubt about "I wouldn't hesitate using the DL-S1 with all types of music, but it probably wouldn't be my first choice for rock, pop or dance, although it is by no means a slouch in those areas. A DL-103 (stock or modified), however, has a more 'boppy' style of presentation, which lends itself better to reproducing that type of music with the required foot-tapping 'fun factor'."
I am wary of buying another cartridge with similar qualities to the Shelter 5000 I had which although excellent in it's own right just didn't sit well with what I liked to listen to. It just seemed far too polite. Is the DL-S1 a totally different animal?
References to the Denon 103 and 103r keep cropping up but it really seems to be a Marmite cartridge, loved and loathed in equal measure.
I've just realised this is now a long way from my original question but it's all knowledge. Further thoughts are welcome.
walpurgis
29-08-2014, 09:20
I am wary of buying another cartridge with similar qualities to the Shelter 5000 I had which although excellent in it's own right just didn't sit well with what I liked to listen to. It just seemed far too polite. Is the DL-S1 a totally different animal?
References to the Denon 103 and 103r keep cropping up but it really seems to be a Marmite cartridge, loved and loathed in equal measure.
If you find the Shelter sound "polite", try and get a listen to a system using a ZYX R100. It's a rather more spectacular sound than the Shelters. Very clean, tight, detailed and low on colourations.
By the way, I wouldn't lump the DL-103R in with the basic 103, it sounds very different and far more sophisticated. It's a very good MC.
Not a problem. If memory serves correct, that's a very low output and highish impedance model, but yes, a custom loaded SUT with Zobel could be built for that.
Paul, I'd like to perhaps get back to you on this option when I've finally sorted out what I'm going to buy?
The Denon is very flat across the frequency range. It extracts a lot of information from the grooves and plays it in a uniform manner. If politeness is a softening of what's on the record then the Denon won't do that but neither will it embellish what's on there.
The Denon is very flat across the frequency range. It extracts a lot of information from the grooves and plays it in a uniform manner. If politeness is a softening of what's on the record then the Denon won't do that but neither will it embellish what's on there.
Geoff, I'm more or less sold on all of the DL-S1 qualities as described, especially with the option of getting it matched to a tailored SUT via RFC. I just don't know what to make of the "rock vs classical" argument. Politeness was just my easy way of summing up the way I found the Shelter's presentation. Other people have them and wouldn't part with them in this world or the next.
I expect a raw, live recording to come across with all of it's energetic drive and shimmer: this was something I just couldn't extract from the Shelter: maybe it was a loading mismatch somewhere between the cart and the phonoamp? If so, I couldn't change that.
The Benz Micro I have is much better at conveying this sort of stuff but still doesn't provide that last ounce of excitement that I'm looking for. Perhaps the Denon, matched with a SUT would? I don't know and am still thinking about it, so my mind is open. It's the New Cartridge Lottery again, but discussions such as these are informative and help narrow things down.
I have run mine into a Leema Agena phono stage and into a nakamichi ca7 pre. Both are fully adjustable in gain and resistance.
I tried it with a couple of SUT's but preferred it direct. They were not custom made though.
I preferred a 100ohm loading as I did with the DL-304 that preceded it.
Hi Bob,
Sorry for the rather tardy reply - it’s been a busy day!
Budget can be quite flexible if the product and results are right. I realise that's no answer and not very helpful, but I'd rather buy once and buy well than have to keep revisiting the situation because I wish Id...........
But to put some sort of scope on it let's say £500 for a Head Amp or SUT taken on faith, more if I can be convinced that it's a "Magic Bullet" solution that resolves all my woes and takes things to a new level? If I spend a bit more I'd ideally like something that's not locked in to one particular cartridge so some flexibilty would be preferred without resorting to getting the soldering iron out.
Cool - and ‘doing it right in the first place, and therefore once’ is an approach I adopt myself and thoroughly approve of, as it minimises the chance of making expensive mistakes!
But I have a question: what will a Head Amp do for me that a SUT won't (and vice versa) and should I favour one over the other? I'm only just starting to look at these things and don't understand the difference.
Now, you’re asking! Lol… That’s a subject which could demand many paragraphs of explanation alone. However, I’ll keep it simple… Objectively, if one considers ‘accuracy’, based on measurements alone, in most circumstances, all else being equal, a top-notch MC head amp should outperform an equivalent SUT.
However, as you well know, in hi-fi it’s not always that simple!
One could also argue (and my extensive experience in this area confirms this), that high-quality transformers, matched precisely to the electrical and sonic requirements of the partnering cartridge (and that last bit is crucial) could produce the superior results, especially with a valve phono stage in the equation, as SUTs are known to achieve excellent sonic synergy with valves.
Having used umpteen high-quality SUTs in the past, I’ve now settled on a Paul Hynes (FET-based) MC head amp, with dedicated off-board PSU, simply because in my system, and to my ears, it allows my SPU to extract more musical information from the record grooves than any SUT I’ve used to date. It seems to combine the best sonic and musical attributes of both approaches/topologies, so for me it’s a win-win.
In general, the best head amps can make even the most accomplished SUTs sound a little ‘soft’, but that depends on so many variables and is far from a forgone conclusion. Conversely, the best SUTs (usually those using the highest quality vintage transformers) can make even the best head amps sound rather ‘forced’ and ‘mechanical’, somewhat like comparing a top-notch valve amplifier with its solid-state counterpart.
In summary (and this is really only a generalisation), if ultimately you favour tone and timbre/air & space, over dynamic alacrity/pace and rhythm, then go for an SUT. If it’s the other way round, then go for a head amp, but much will depend on your choice of cartridge, arm and turntable - and a host of other factors, not least of which is your choice of music!
A few words on this would be helpful if you have the time please?
Essentially, the DL-S1 combines the tonal purity and uber-detail retrieval of the OC-9, with the more ‘organic’ sonic qualities of the 33PTG, but lacks the (sometimes) treble dominance of the former, depending on partnering ancillaries. However, the DL-S1 doesn’t ‘lead with its bass’ or ‘boogie’, in the quite the same way as the DL-103 or an SPU. It can sound a little ‘sober’ in comparison to both of the latter, but not in a way that ever comes across as clinical or musically stark/uninteresting.
IMO, the DL-S1 is unfailingly accurate, in terms of retrieving exactly what information is contained in the record grooves, so it's not a cartridge that will necessarily produce ‘sonic fireworks’; it just tells you what’s there, no more, no less, but in the process it showcases the music first and foremost. Therefore, it will always appeal to the heart as much as it does to the head. The amazing thing, however, is that it does all this for a mere cost of £500, and in a way I’ve not heard bettered by some rather more ‘exotic’ and expensive designs!
The only concerns I have after reading your thread on the DL-S1 are that it may lend itself more to classical music than rock, of which I play a fair amount. I'm sure it would clean up on some of the acoustic, folksy stuff but I'm left unsure whether this might be the best cart for bass driven bluesy music. Please don't get me wrong - I'm no boom bass fanatic, but I do like to be able to follow a strong taught bass line in the music: it's what draws me in and gets me totally absorbed.
I wouldn’t worry too much in that respect, unless you’re the type looking for ‘club-style bass' from 12” dance music singles! I have loads of bass-driven bluesy music, and the DL-S1 reproduces it with aplomb. If it doesn’t sound right, in that respect, then blame your T/T, arm and/or phono stage.
I am wary of buying another cartridge with similar qualities to the Shelter 5000 I had which although excellent in it's own right just didn't sit well with what I liked to listen to. It just seemed far too polite. Is the DL-S1 a totally different animal?
See my response above.
References to the Denon 103 and 103r keep cropping up but it really seems to be a Marmite cartridge, loved and loathed in equal measure.
Both are different animals, sonically, from the DL-S1, which is an altogether more refined performer in all areas, but when set-up and partnered correctly, no less musically rewarding.
Hope this helps! :cool:
Marco.
It looks like Marco's views pretty much match my own but in very different systems. I suppose with cartridges you simply have to go with your guts sometimes as demonstration opportunities are rare. This is Denon's top moving coil cartridge. They have a fabulous history of producing excellent cartridges, some of which have been around for more than thirty years yet are still highly rated. The DL-S1 is the pinnacle of what Denon are prepared to put on the market and you can get hold of it for as little as £500. I have seen them sold for £1k and this is Denon, where their next best is about £400. The seller is spot on too.
It is as risk free a venture as you are going to get in cartridges for £500.
I have run mine into a Leema Agena phono stage and into a nakamichi ca7 pre. Both are fully adjustable in gain and resistance.
I tried it with a couple of SUT's but preferred it direct. They were not custom made though.
I preferred a 100ohm loading as I did with the DL-304 that preceded it.
Leema kit is something I have a huge amount of respect for. I found the Company to be exemplary in looking after it's customers re after sales service.
If I go for a DL-S1 then 100 Ohms equates to the MC input on my Icon unit, so may be a good place to start.
You just need to ensure that your stage has sufficient gain as the Denon has a very low output. Regarding the Leema I would recommend that stage and the company to anyone.
Hi Bob,
Sorry for the rather tardy reply - it’s been a busy day!
Marco.
No worries Marco, I'm impressed that you could put such a cohesive piece together at that time in the morning. Thank you.
I thought sorting out a pick up cartridge was difficult enough, sounds like SUTs and Head Amps take the headache another stage further. Not easy this Hi-Fi business when you can read and rationalise as much as you like but in the end your ears will have the final say (if you know what I mean......................). I need time to absorb and reflect on what you've written. The choice of cartridge has to come first, and then a partnering SUT/HA if the need is there. Or even maybe together, don't know yet.
Back to the DL-S1. From everything I've found (including the contributions on this thread) I guess it has to be on my list for inclusion, whereas previously I was aware of it but not of it's qualities. I'd rather regarded it as a bit of an oddity that didn't seem to crop up very often, certainly not a main stream option. It seems to be incredible value for money if you can make it sing in your system - which is really what it's all about.
I'll admit to not being a huge fan of...... "‘club-style bass' from 12” dance music singles" so we're on safe ground there.
I currently feel it's one of those cartridges that at some point I just have to try, otherwise I just won't know. At least this thread has ruled it in rather than out and just maybe my bass could do with being cleaned up a touch and maybe this is the cart to do it.......................?
The promise of refinement and detail is always an easy sell to me. Refined articulate bass vs deep down grungy bass - McCartney vs Jack Bruce? Love it all though.
I now need to ponder the options (and keep an eye on 2juki's site).
Best regards, Bob
You just need to ensure that your stage has sufficient gain as the Denon has a very low output. Regarding the Leema I would recommend that stage and the company to anyone.
Yes, quite right, and that's where the SUT pursuit might be starting, although the Icon unit does have a variable gain control which is why I can run it straight into the Musical Fidelity 255 Watt power amp. I think I'd need to try it first, but then perhaps a SUT might bring benefits in it's own right?
You have a nice system so it is worth a try. An SUT bake off would be a good opportunity to find what you're looking for once you have the cart in situ.
Yes, quite right, and that's where the SUT pursuit might be starting, although the Icon unit does have a variable gain control which is why I can run it straight into the Musical Fidelity 255 Watt power amp. I think I'd need to try it first, but then perhaps a SUT might bring benefits in it's own right?
I think you’d love the addictive musical qualities a top-notch SUT would bring to the party, so in that respect you should liaise with Paul. I doubt you’ll regret it, Bob - and neither would you regret buying a DL-S1 :)
Marco.
walpurgis
30-08-2014, 22:58
A poor SUT is enough to put people off MCs forever. But a good SUT is a joy! I've owned about ten SUTs of varying quality and now just hang onto two, which do what I need. Reluctantly recently sold a Fidelity Research FRT-3, it was far better than its original relatively sensible price would suggest, extremely good in fact, but did I need three? Probably not.
A poor SUT is enough to put people off MCs forever. But a good SUT is a joy! I've owned about ten SUTs of varying quality and now just hang onto two, which do what I need. Reluctantly recently sold a Fidelity Research FRT-3, it was far better than its original relatively sensible price would suggest, extremely good in fact, but did I need three? Probably not.
So, I have to ask, which two SUTs have you hung onto? And are you prepared to name some of those that didn't quite make it? - and maybe why?
Rush2112
04-09-2014, 19:56
Hi Bob, not really it was well used and I could have still got a replacement at the time but I had heard the Ortofon MC3000mk2 which was excellent and a touch better in the tracking dept.
albertan
10-10-2014, 10:01
Audio Technica has introduced two new moving coil cartridges that are worthy of serious consideration. The new ART 7 and ART 9 cartridges are just out but from reading posts from several audiophiles that I have come to respect, there is much to like about these two new numbers. The ART 7 is very low output at about .12 mv, while the ART 9 has an output of .5 mv. OC 9 mark 3 type compliance and body dimensions should make it easy to fit with your deck.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.