View Full Version : Direct Drive resurgence
pure sound
22-08-2014, 10:02
So who's going to lend him a souped up 1210?
http://www.theaudiobeat.com/blog/direct_drive.htm
That's a bit of a teaser Guy! All introduction and then nothing - not one word on how they compare sonically....
Personally, I suspect the Motus will rise to the top ;).
pure sound
22-08-2014, 10:42
He's only just got the Langer & hasn't had a chance to listen to that yet. He has reviewed the VPI recently & liked it but it is rather expensive. He did also review the Monaco a few years ago & liked that with some proviso's. He's mainly engaged in trying to appraise & write about the Vox Olympian speakers at the moment & they tend to dictate the ancillaries certainly back to the line stage used. He seems to be getting on well with the STST though. I guess the other current DD options would be the Brinkmann & the Kodo Beat.
Yep, I dare say he could borrow both if he tried ;). the Monaco is in Mk2 guise now with improved resolution to the optical feedback loop...
Ammonite Audio
22-08-2014, 11:06
I don't buy in to the "Linn Conspiracy" and "Everything Direct Drive Was and Is Great" theories but the depth of common-sense design and sound engineering in that Motus is quite alluring and I'd be chatting to Guy now if I didn't already have too many record players! Roy Gregory's review will be an interesting (if lengthy) read when it comes out.
I note that Langer will supply their direct drive motor units to DIY audio enthusiasts, although no prices are mentioned - food for thought?
pure sound
22-08-2014, 11:27
I did talk to Langer at Munich. They do offer parts on an oem basis so it would be possible to incorporate them into whatever design you chose. However, as a commercial proposition the result would be fairly expensive, a good deal more so than their own finished designs go for. I'm happy enough with the STST motor and how it is implemented so I didn't pursue it further. But I'm sure there'll be others that will. Maybe Inspire?
I I note that Langer will supply their direct drive motor units to DIY audio enthusiasts, although no prices are mentioned - food for thought?
The price is mentioned. It is a staggering 3490 euros to buy the motor unit on its own. That's near enough three good condition SP10s.
'I’m not even going to mention the various Technics decks and their cult following'
Hmmm, I wonder why that is...?
I did talk to Langer at Munich. They do offer parts on an oem basis so it would be possible to incorporate them into whatever design you chose. However, as a commercial proposition the result would be fairly expensive, a good deal more so than their own finished designs go for. I'm happy enough with the STST motor and how it is implemented so I didn't pursue it further. But I'm sure there'll be others that will. Maybe Inspire?
Yeah, I did contact them and make equerries. As you say, the cost of the parts is pretty steep. The biggest problem is that I would have to see very much more technical details and measurements before I included one in anything I built.
pure sound
22-08-2014, 12:04
Hmmm, I wonder why that is...?
I'd guess that for the purposes of his readers he's focussing more on current production items. I don't think the standard 1200/1210 is made now so which particular set of modifications would even be representative? I guess the Inspire is the nearest thing to a commercially produced item but, like their Lenco derived deck, it is relying on some now obsolete parts.
I'd guess that for the purposes of his readers he's focussing more on current production items. I don't think the standard 1200/1210 is made now so which particular set of modifications would even be representative? .
They are ubiquitous though, and cheap, so a comparison with the new kids on the block would be of value, if only as a benchmark. Could it be that these expensive decks offer little more than a 1210 does?
I'd also be interested to know why just the motor in that deck costs ten times the price of an entire brand new SL1210 (when they were still in production).
Stratmangler
22-08-2014, 12:29
I'd also be interested to know why just the motor in that deck costs ten times the price of an entire brand new SL1210 (when they were still in production).
Quite simple - economies of scale.
Matsushita used to manufacture SL12xx turntables in multiples of thousands.
Quite simple - economies of scale.
Matsushita used to manufacture SL12xx turntables in multiples of thousands.
Enough for an order of magnitude difference in price? Not so sure about that. A tiny little motor and all it has to do is revolve a platter at a constant speed and it costs three and a half grand? You can buy an engine for a car for less than that.
Stratmangler
22-08-2014, 12:47
Enough for an order of magnitude difference in price? Not so sure about that. A tiny little motor and all it has to do is revolve a platter at a constant speed and it costs three and a half grand? You can buy an engine for a car for less than that.
Don't confuse material costs with the asking price.
Each and every motor unit of the STST is built by one person by hand, and to order. It is a bespoke item built by a craftsman. To rubbish his work because of its cost is churlish to say the least.
pure sound
22-08-2014, 12:48
The simple answer is that if you think something is hugely overpriced, that there is a large market for it and that r&d costs will be negligible then get going, produce an alternative & laugh all the way to the bank.
Economies of scale are hugely significant. Look at the prices of washing machines or cars to see the advantages of manufacturing something in large quantities.
Don't confuse material costs with the asking price.
Each and every motor unit of the STST is built by one person by hand, and to order. It is a bespoke item built by a craftsman. To rubbish his work because of its cost is churlish to say the least.
It would be churlish to rubbish someone's work which is why I have not done so. It is the price of the motor that I am calling into question, not its quality.
pure sound
22-08-2014, 13:02
Just to point out that it is Langer who make the motor/platter/control electronics that can be bought separately and not STST.
http://www.langer-audio.de/Page14.html
Stratmangler
22-08-2014, 13:04
It would be churlish to rubbish someone's work which is why I have not done so. It is the price of the motor that I am calling into question, not its quality.
Covered with the bit you didn't comment on.
Don't confuse material costs with the asking price.
Each and every motor unit of the STST is built by one person by hand, and to order. It is a bespoke item built by a craftsman.
Ammonite Audio
22-08-2014, 13:05
They are ubiquitous though, and cheap, so a comparison with the new kids on the block would be of value, if only as a benchmark. Could it be that these expensive decks offer little more than a 1210 does?
I'd also be interested to know why just the motor in that deck costs ten times the price of an entire brand new SL1210 (when they were still in production).
Could it be that both these decks are considerably better than a pimped Technics SL-1210? The price gap is not so huge when the cost of Technics mods is taken into account.
pure sound
22-08-2014, 13:24
I have two well sorted SP10 Mk2's each in a different type of plinth. I like them both but to me the STST is preferable to either of them. The drive control electronics & how the motor controls the platter is the key to the sound of direct drive decks. I've come to the conclusion that an excessive torque capability isn't necessarily a good thing. Power is delivered to the platter in the form of pulses. The cleanness of these pulses, the weight of the platter, the friction in the bearing, the chassis material chosen, each plays a part in seeing that the groove is smoothly driven past the stylus.
That makes sense to me and would be supported by my experience.
I can quite see why he isn't including a modified Technics. After all, it isn't a set product - they are all combinations of components from numerous manufacturers - hardly two are quite the same. Whatever he were to conclude someone would say that the model he used had the wrong, platter, bearing or power supply etc.
There is no point in comparing the cost of mass produced items to those of small scale hi-fi manufactures.
pure sound
22-08-2014, 14:37
That makes sense to me and would be supported by my experience.
Yes, those requirements aren't exclusive to DD turntables but apply to pretty much all designs belt & idler included.
I can quite see why he isn't including a modified Technics. After all, it isn't a set product - they are all combinations of components from numerous manufacturers - hardly two are quite the same. Whatever he were to conclude someone would say that the model he used had the wrong, platter, bearing or power supply etc.
There is no point in comparing the cost of mass produced items to those of small scale hi-fi manufactures.
I disagree. At the very least it can tell you what all that extra money is buying.It may be an enourmous improvement; or it may be marginal. I was proposing comparison to a stock sL1200 btw, not a modded one. When such comparisons are dismissed as not relevant or not worth the bother that does raise my eyebrow a touch.
What bit do you disagree with exactly?
The stock 1200/1210 isn't made any more. Should he consider any other DD decks that also aren't in production - the SP10 would make sense - where should he stop?
Ah, was it the last bit you disagree with? I think there is likely to be a bit of confusion here as I haven't made myself very clear. I wasn't referring to the 1200/1210 when I referred to mass produced. I was thinking of the price comparison made earlier between the (mass produced) car engine and the bespoke direct drive motor/bearing/platter/power supply. I would actually like RG to compare the decks against a stock Technics.
Right - that makes more sense. :) I don't think it matters that they are not made anymore it is just a case of comparison to a (well) known quantity.
Ammonite Audio
22-08-2014, 15:06
I disagree. At the very least it can tell you what all that extra money is buying.It may be an enourmous improvement; or it may be marginal. I was proposing comparison to a stock sL1200 btw, not a modded one. When such comparisons are dismissed as not relevant or not worth the bother that does raise my eyebrow a touch.
Clearly you believe that a stock 1200 is up to the comparison. My experience with a stock 1210 and subsequent (expensive) upgrades suggests that it is nowhere near up to the comparison, never mind the valid points made above about it not being a current production item. I've only heard Guy's Motus from across a room at Scalford, but that was as special as anything gets in those circumstances. I've been through the Technics thing and I don't believe that it represents particularly good SPPV, whether in standard form, or modified up to the rafters; however others (eg Marco and MartinT) will disagree and clearly enjoy their decks. The (unsuspended) Motus at £3.5k represents quite good SPPV, based on what I heard at Scalford. It probably has good re-sale value, too.
Hugo that may well be the case as far as I know, and at a price difference of £3000 I would hope that the Motus would be superior to a stock SL1210 ;) - For me and many others the stock SL1200 is the benchmark of affordable competency as far as record decks go, hence I feel it is ideal as a comparitor, particularly when we are talking about high end direct drives. It is not a question of whether the Motus (or whatever) will be better but a question of how much better and is that improvment justified by the price asked. So:
A lot better for an extra £2500 - worth considering.
Slightly better for an extra £2500 - not worth considering.
There is a lot of smoke and mirrors in hi-fi and with turntables in particular. Form above function, decks that cost £5K that are not even acceptably speed stable and so forth. We can't assume these days that just because a deck is expensive that it can actually do the core job of a turntable any better than a much cheaper model.
BTH K10A
22-08-2014, 16:14
If I were in the market to replace any of my TT's I'd probable look to build one up from the base components to get the quality and aesthetics I want.
As I mentioned on another thread this DD motor unit looks to be a good basis to build around.
http://www.flokason.ch/fs_directdrive.html
Looks very interesting indeed
pure sound
22-08-2014, 16:53
3300 GBP or thereabouts & not apparently including drive electronics. There are other bits of electronics sold by them but the assumption seems to be that your existing lathe electronics will be used to run the motor.
Hmm... I can't say I'm surprised. They do say it's for a lathe so I guess it's understandable they assume you will have one :).
BTH K10A
22-08-2014, 20:07
Most of the Neumann lathes I've seen (VMS70) did not have an SP-02 conversion and I doubt that the electronics used to control the old Lyrec Motor would be suitable
So who's going to lend him a souped up 1210?
http://www.theaudiobeat.com/blog/direct_drive.htm
Not that i have one but I'd rather have a Techie (done up; I hesitate to say pi**ed) and the cash for an arm and cart than the others. as nice as they are the 1200 in full glory is a lovely deck and stood the test of time.
pure sound
25-08-2014, 07:59
Was fortunate to listen to a new thread drive Verdier this weekend. The propulsive qualities of the best idler or direct drive designs but with a spaciouness & finesse I'd normally associate with a well sorted suspension. Certainly another to consider if you have the space and are shopping at that price level.
Nice one, Guy. I love the Verdier (and other top-notch string drives), precisely for the reasons you’ve highlighted. IMO, the ultra high-mass route is the only way to hear ‘belt-drive’ at its best. It’s certainly the only time, in my experience, when genuinely accurate speed stability is achieved... ;)
The only problem is their sheer bulk, and thus housing one of the buggers! I shall address some of the earlier posts on this thread later.
Marco.
I see that Verdier supply two different drive pulley, one for a belt and one for thread - I've only ever seen thread used though (sometimes with the motor a very long way off (not sure how such a large belt would behave).
IMO, the ultra high-mass route is the only way to hear ‘belt-drive’ at its best.
I disagree, it's not the only way in my experience.
It’s certainly the only time genuinely accurate speed stability is achieved... ;)
I strongly disagree, again, my experience contradicts this.
That’s fine, Mark. Both our experiences are valid, even if they are contradictory.
My opinion would instantly change if or when I hear a non-high mass belt-drive T/T, which to my ears achieves direct-drive type speed stability (despite its other enviable, and equally as important, sonic attributes) :)
Marco.
Ammonite Audio
25-08-2014, 09:26
Can anyone explain how direct drive turntables that are nominally speed stable (and measurably so in simple % accuracy and W&F terms) can turn in such odd results when subject to the polar rotational analysis done by PaulR over at PFM? Cogging effects appear to be just as much a fact of life for most direct drive decks as belt driven designs with synchronous motors, whatever the simple numbers might say.
I'd be very keen to see the polar analysis done on the STST Motus. Being low-torque with a fairly massy platter, I suspect that it's rather good, but it would be fascinating to see how it compares to a pimped SL-1210.
pure sound
25-08-2014, 22:40
I did try to record a tone from what was a very eccentrically pressed copy of the AP test record. Ill have to try & borrow a different sample & have another go. I'm sure itll have signature of some sort but whatever it is, I don't find it intrusive in the way even an SP10 can be with regard to timbre sometimes.
The Verdier was impressive & the thread was more taut than I expected. I also hadn't reckoned on the base being sprung. The maglev bearing also has a damped compliant behaviour. This to me resulted in a much more open presentation than I hear from some other leaden & dead sounding heavyweight designs.
Yeah, it's a suspended suspension, though it doesn't look like one. I'm surprised (though on reflection I probably shouldn't be as it uses ferrite magnets) that the bearing has clear vertical compliance.
pure sound
26-08-2014, 12:10
I'm not sure if it's what they are but they look like opposing speaker driver magnets from perhaps a 15 or 18" unit.
Whatever, there's no contact & a good deal of movement allowed in the vertical plane. Nice quiet backgrounds. Maglev or air suspension for any really high mass platter does seem to be the most sensible way to go.
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