View Full Version : National Audio Show Whittlebury Hall 2014
Audio Al
15-08-2014, 09:29
National Audio Show Whittlebury Hall 2014
Sat. Sep 20, 2014 - Sun. Sep 21, 2014
Saturday Opening Times: 10am - 6pm
Sunday Opening Times: 10am - 5pm
Any AOS'ers going this year ?
I will be :D Maybe a 2 day visit ;)
Audio Al
15-08-2014, 09:44
That's me all booked up
Show pass 2 days + Steve Hogarth Concert Saturday evening ;)
Beobloke
15-08-2014, 09:45
I'll be going, although I'm undecided if I'll make it an overnighter yet.
I'll be there both days; I can be found in the Albarry Music room, as Albarry will be using the Reference Rhapsody speakers this year. Happy to chew the fat or meet up for a pint later on with any AoS members.
jandl100
17-08-2014, 07:54
I'll be there on the Sunday. :) The best commercial show in the UK, imo.
Looking forward to hearing your Rhapsodys with the new uprated x-over, Paul!
chris@panteg
17-08-2014, 08:01
I'll be there on the Sunday. :) The best commercial show in the UK, imo.
Looking forward to hearing your Rhapsodys with the new uprated x-over, Paul!
Me too ,worth going just to hear them again .
I'm definitely going - already have my ticket (Sunday). I'm really looking forward to it - can't wait to hear the RFC Rhapsody speakers and Teddy Pardo is going to be there again with all his gear - can't wait :).
Floyddroid
17-08-2014, 10:03
I think i am going to try and make it this year. gonna have a word with me boss tomorrow.
I'm definitely going - already have my ticket (Sunday). I'm really looking forward to it - can't wait to hear the RFC Rhapsody speakers and Teddy Pardo is going to be there again with all his gear - can't wait :).
Lee Henley
17-08-2014, 12:02
Shall be going along on the Sunday, it's always a good day out
I'll be there will take a load of pics.
trio leo
17-08-2014, 21:18
I'm going, look forward to an enjoyable weekend of music.
regards Al
chris@panteg
18-08-2014, 08:43
I really like the venue , just down the road from Banbury , other side of Silverstone , no more trips to Heathrow which I hated .
400v on the anode
18-08-2014, 09:04
With Luck I may make it on the sunday.
Graham
look forward to an enjoyable weekend of music.
regards Al
good luck with that ;).
Audio Al
18-08-2014, 09:47
good luck with that ;).
I take my own Moozic and ask them to play it :)
Yeah, we do - if the system sounds promising.
Another Andy
18-08-2014, 11:12
Should be there on the Sunday, was very impressed with last years show.
now how will we find each other??? I don't know anyone here yet!
A
I think I've only ever met four people who post on this forum (and three of those I knew before I joined it).
Audio Al
18-08-2014, 11:35
now how will we find each other??? I don't know anyone here yet!
A
Easy , just look for someone Old , Bald , Beard , Beer belly , that will be me :D
Another Andy
18-08-2014, 13:48
Yep, all booked in for the sunday (working sat)
should be another good show
I'll most probably be wearing this:
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h90/markemark_2006/ShhListening_zpse236e073.jpg
Audio Al
19-08-2014, 05:09
I'll most probably be wearing this:
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h90/markemark_2006/ShhListening_zpse236e073.jpg
Novel , not seen anyone wearing a image of a floating T shirt before ;)
Floyddroid
19-08-2014, 05:30
Anyone from the Teesside area going?
Novel , not seen anyone wearing a image of a floating T shirt before ;)
I'll most probably be wearing this:
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h90/markemark_2006/ShhListening_zpse236e073.jpg
Oh!! You're a girl then??
:lol:
vandergraafuk
19-08-2014, 13:44
I am looking forward to the show with special attention to Teddy Pardo's room. I will be there Sunday.
If anyone is planning to stay the weekend (as I know some are) and would like a car-share, I'm happy to provide a lift to the show. Only thing is, I'll be setting off before noon on Friday and probably back 8pm Sunday. Just thought I'd ask as there were a few people I know staying the weekend last year.
Floyddroid
30-08-2014, 05:58
This is proving to be a very expensive weekend. There are no single rooms left at the hall and the ones that they have left start at £149 per night. Any suggestions?
There is a pub just down the road in Towcester. - The Saracens head.
Failing that, There are plenty of hotels in the Northampton area. Have a look at hotels.com
Another Andy
30-08-2014, 07:22
May be worth checking hotels and pubs for silverstone, it's only round the corner!
Check out the Premier Inn, Brackley, Silverstone. Last I checked there were still rooms available albeit they put the prices up for that weekend. Still cheaper than Whittlebury Hall itself.
Failing that, there should be plenty of B&B's in the area
Oh!! You're a girl then??
:lol:
He is at weekends… Just call him ‘Marcia’ ;)
Marco.
Spectral Morn
30-08-2014, 09:35
I had hoped to be going this year but sadly can't :(
Regards Neil
hifinutt
05-09-2014, 02:44
nor me sadly , absolutely love this show but got 2 deadlines to meet sadly !!!
I'm very much looking forward to hearing Paul's (Reference Fidelity Components) Rhapsody speakers and also the Teddy Pardo room, but other than that I have to say the exhibitor list doesn't really fill me with huge enthusiasm :( - seems very like a repeat of last year.
I'm very much looking forward to hearing Paul's (Reference Fidelity Components) Rhapsody speakers and also the Teddy Pardo room, but other than that I have to say the exhibitor list doesn't really fill me with huge enthusiasm...
Ditto. Paul’s room, together with the opportunity of meeting up with some AoS-ers (and buying some new vinyl) are the only things that would tempt me to go, as these days I’ve all but given up on going to commercial shows. One gets rather jaded listening to £200k systems that fail to outperform one’s own (rather less expensive) system at home…. :rolleyes:
Sadly, however, I’m busy on the weekend of the show, so won’t be able to go anyway.
Marco.
It's not for another two weeks yet Marco.
I love the weird and exotic - it's the affordable 'humdrum' I'm not so interested in. Having said that, there is always something to surprise and its a fun day out with friends :).
Yeah, I get that, but I can think of better fun days out with friends, which are cheaper and involve less driving! ;)
I also like ‘the weird and wonderful’ in audio, but that doesn’t rule out the fact that the majority of uber-expensive systems I’ve heard demonstrated at commercial hi-fi shows fundamentally fail at achieving their core task…..
Marco.
Yes, well show environments aren't ideal for demonstrating audio - we shall see (as ever) :).
No worries. Hope you guys have a nice day there! :cool:
Marco.
Audio Al
05-09-2014, 10:54
Sadly, however, I’m busy on the weekend of the show, so won’t be able to go anyway.
:rolleyes: Anything to get out of buying me a drink :rolleyes:
I'll have to buy my own then :cool::cool::D
Floyddroid
07-09-2014, 18:44
Mmm, i have decided to give Whittlebury a miss too for similar reasons to Marco. With the exception of the abundance of vinyl on sale (which may end up bankrupting me) and the Alberry amps there is nothing that entices me to make the journey. Like Marco i enjoy the less commercial aspect of audio and the slightly less corporate events. I think i am going to attend the DIY Audio weekend On November 1st and second instead.;)
Ironically, I still want to go but neither the Albarry amps nor the vinyl entices me. The vinyl is all available on line (same price) and I've already heard the Albarry amps a number of times (though yet to hear them sounding very good).
Ironically, I still want to go but neither the Albarry amps nor the vinyl entices me. The vinyl is all available on line (same price) and I've already heard the Albarry amps a number of times (though yet to hear them sounding very good).
Trust me Mark, they sound superb, especially the M1108s. The problem that Albarry have had over the past 3 years with shows has been a disappointing room/speakers several years ago when they were in that huge untreated room, and really the speakers used for the past year or two have not been really capable of resolving upstream amp changes for one reason or another. It will be different this year, and Albarry are very confident indeed that they will shine though partnered with the Rhapsodys. Unlike previous years, they have gone to great lengths with their auditioning and preparation. I am also very confident because I know that Albarrys are a superb match with Rhapsodys. The amps have not been the problem in previous years and I think that Dave will be happy to endorse the pedigree and SQ of Albarry amps.
It would be very premature to make any assumptions until heard. I am very hopeful that you are in for a treat.
The vinyl is all available on line (same price)...
Most likely cheaper… But that’s not the point. Ordering vinyl on-line isn’t the same as physically flicking through a stack of records and taking a punt on something different/unexpected. I love doing that (which is why I still enjoy visiting independent record shops)! :)
However, yes, Scalford, NEBO, Owston, etc, all hold rather more appeal for me these days than the likes of Whittlebury, although when the Northern shows take place (such as Cranage Hall), and I can hit them within less than an hour’s drive, then I’m more likely to make the effort to go.
Marco.
Well let's hope that Cranage Hall happens again (I believe it is likely to) as it was excellent and free entrance too (plus free parking) - this is how audio shows should be organised.
Too right - it ticked all the boxes, and there were some decent sounds made there too, significantly due to the fact that the rooms were (acoustically) good! :)
Marco.
talisman2
08-09-2014, 07:19
travelling down on friday for saturday only with two of 'My Chaps' , hope the roads are a little kinder than last year!!. last year i had the prospect of major heart surgery hanging over my head , so this year i can relax and enjoy the event more (not spending any more than £30,000 on 'gear')
Floyddroid
08-09-2014, 15:39
Good to see you cutting back Alf. Have a cracking time.
travelling down on friday for saturday only with two of 'My Chaps' , hope the roads are a little kinder than last year!!. last year i had the prospect of major heart surgery hanging over my head , so this year i can relax and enjoy the event more (not spending any more than £30,000 on 'gear')
Trust me Mark, they sound superb, especially the M1108s. The problem that Albarry have had over the past 3 years with shows has been a disappointing room/speakers several years ago when they were in that huge untreated room, and really the speakers used for the past year or two have not been really capable of resolving upstream amp changes for one reason or another. It will be different this year, and Albarry are very confident indeed that they will shine though partnered with the Rhapsodys. Unlike previous years, they have gone to great lengths with their auditioning and preparation. I am also very confident because I know that Albarrys are a superb match with Rhapsodys. The amps have not been the problem in previous years and I think that Dave will be happy to endorse the pedigree and SQ of Albarry amps.
It would be very premature to make any assumptions until heard. I am very hopeful that you are in for a treat.
Hi Paul, I'm sure you are right - I'm looking forward to hearing them sing :).
fatmarley
08-09-2014, 16:23
I'm very tempted to go not only to hear the Rhapsodys but also the new Royd speakers.
You should go, Matt, as you’re not too far away.
Just one tip I’d offer to those doing demonstrations, particularly where longish ‘spiels’ are involved, during the introduction of a piece of equipment or whatever… Try not to like the sound of your own voices too much, by ‘preaching’ to your audience, and instead allow potential customers to voice their opinions, or even pose ‘difficult' questions you’d rather not have been asked ;)
Remember, you’re not there for an ego trip or to demonstrate your ‘wealth of knowledge’ (and simply be a smart arse), but to listen to and act upon the needs of your potential customers!
*That* is how sales are made.
Marco.
It's rare that demonstrators say anything about the gear in the room. I suspect I know the demo you are thinking of Marco (Absolute Sounds) but it's most unusual 9I didn't think the presentation was overly long).
Yes, AS was one of them, Mark. However, in my experience, it’s a problem in nearly all ‘closed room demos’, where people are invariably preached to, rather than listened to.
Marco.
Beobloke
12-09-2014, 11:49
Right, I have confirmed my visit for the Sunday.
Always happy for a chat with AoS-ers and even happier to be bought beer... ;)
Will you be wearing your usual frock (for ease of identity)?
Marco.
Buy tickets by the end of today for 2 weeks free Qobuz lossless trial.
Do it. You KNOW it makes sense.
I might if I knew what it was - some computer audio bollarkz, is it? :D
Marco.
Fangled noughs and ones jobbie. It'll never catch on.
Biggest source of high-def downloads in the world according to them.
It is very good SQ wise. Really. Run by Frenchmen, though - and the client s/w could be better.
http://www.qobuz.com/ie-en/offers/music-streaming-subscription
According to the e-mail I got today:
"No Credit Card needed, No commitment necessary, account can be cancelled at any time. 1 Month of unlimited streaming. 100% free."
Then again, that says one month. Go figure.
Hold on a minute - ticket payment is by http - not https. That means credit card details are NOT encrypted when buying tickets.
Be careful. Unsure what the Chester group are playing at here.
EDIT: actually you are OK - if you right click on the showclix window and do a properties you'll see https.
Yes, AS was one of them, Mark. However, in my experience, it’s a problem in nearly all ‘closed room demos’, where people are invariably preached to, rather than listened to.
Marco.
I actually prefer the 'closed room' demos and find the preaching quite interesting (you are free to ignore or laugh at it after all). I'm not surprised that it isn't treated as a discussion though, that would lead to a very lengthy diatribe.
According to the e-mail I got today:
"No Credit Card needed, No commitment necessary, account can be cancelled at any time. 1 Month of unlimited streaming. 100% free."
Then again, that says one month. Go figure.
I month, or one day, can't say it fills me with enthusiasm either way (and it rhymes :)).
Each to his or her own I guess, but quite often, in my experience, the person doing the demonstration is rather full of his own self importance, and more interested in ‘educating’ the audience than in listening to feedback/inviting questions from them, once the ‘speech’ is over.
For me, there is little real value in that, other than laughing outside afterwards with your mates, telling them what an arrogant cock you thought he was! ;)
If the idea was to stimulate interest in the brand, and/or in specific products, with a view to generating potential sales, then most of these ‘preachers' are guilty of an epic fail.
Marco.
Can't say I've ever thought that - I've sometimes thought that what they were saying was bollocks but that's a different matter. Back in the day I remember some manufacturers did hold question and answer sessions after a demo - but some of the questions people ask are blindingly basic and naïve (I can live without having the role of a DAC explained)!
I month, or one day, can't say it fills me with enthusiasm either way (and it rhymes :)).
Needle and groove man, hey? Put some more miles on the Troika then:)
Can't say I've ever thought that - I've sometimes thought that what they were saying was bollocks but that's a different matter. Back in the day I remember some manufacturers did hold question and answer sessions after a demo - but some of the questions people ask are blindingly basic and naïve (I can live without having the role of a DAC explained)!
I assure you that it’s an issue, and what puts off potential customers from parting with their cash, regardless of how ‘impressed’ they are by the hi-fi knowledge of the person doing the demonstration. It’s almost as if, in their desire to ‘educate' the audience, they’ve forgotten what the end goal of the demonstration was supposed to be……..
This sort of thing happens quite often during presentations of mains conditioning products, where those doing the presentation are too busy TELLING the audience what benefits they should’ve heard, from the use of whatever gizmo it was being demonstrated, than asking them what they *actually* heard, if indeed anything at all! :doh:
It’s a major faux-pas.
Marco.
This sort of thing happens quite often during presentations of mains conditioning products, where those doing the presentation are too busy TELLING the audience what benefits they should’ve heard, from the use of whatever gizmo it was being demonstrated, than asking them what they *actually* heard, if indeed anything at all! :doh:
It’s a major faux-pas.
Marco.
Ah, you see I never go to the Music Works or Russ Andrews demos (which are presumably the ones you are talking of). Having said that, there was a PS audio demo at last years Whitlebury show I seem to remember, Brian and Trevors house of Linn - I thought it sounded better without the massive mains regenerators they were promoting.
Not Audioworks - I have no problem with Larry. One such example was with the IsoTek reps.
Anyway, I’m sure you know what I’m getting at. I simply hate having the feeling that the person demonstrating the kit cares more about what he or she thinks than the views of assembled potential customers, which in my experience is what lets down so many show demos.
Marco.
Beobloke
12-09-2014, 17:22
Will you be wearing your usual frock (for ease of identity)?
Marco.
Sadly not. Mrs. B is coming with me and insists that only one of us can wear a frock, and that she plans for it to be her on that day.
:(
Probably for the best, as you’ll only end up stretching it! :D
Marco.
fatmarley
15-09-2014, 08:39
You should go, Matt, as you’re not too far away.
Just bought a ticket, so i'll have to go now...
Now that I've got shiny, new Rode Videomic Pro (http://www.rodemic.com/microphones/videomicpro) for my Canon 70d DSLR, do you think anyone would be interested in me doing a video of various rooms? (would I even be allowed to video?) - Yes I know it would be a mono recording of a stereo recording, being played back through your own speakers, but I still think it could be interesting.
Yes, you will be allowed to video and I'm sure a lot of people would be interested in seeing it.
fatmarley
15-09-2014, 18:21
Yes, you will be allowed to video and I'm sure a lot of people would be interested in seeing it.
There doesn't seem much interest here so far but this is quite a quiet forum.
Floyddroid
16-09-2014, 07:55
Not much on the other forums either tbh
There doesn't seem much interest here so far but this is quite a quiet forum.
There never is until after the show and then it's all "didn't anyone take any pictures?"
There doesn't seem much interest here so far but this is quite a quiet forum.
Lol - it depends on where you look and which subjects interest you!
An average of 1900 hits per day here says no, it’s not exceptionally quiet…. ;)
Marco.
Audio Al
16-09-2014, 14:39
I Am attending both days , cant wait , I'm getting all excited :D
will be taking the camera as well ;)
I Am attending both days , cant wait , I'm getting all excited :D
Don’t forget to wear your special pants, sweety... You know what happens when you get too ‘excited’! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Audio Al
16-09-2014, 15:51
Don’t forget to wear your special pants, sweety... You know what happens when you get too ‘excited’! :eyebrows:
Marco.
I only wear those when I am in continent ,
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
like Spain or France :ner:
fatmarley
16-09-2014, 19:16
Lol - it depends on where you look and which subjects interest you!
An average of 1900 hits per day here says no, it’s not exceptionally quiet…. ;)
Marco.
Wow, 1900 hits is quite a lot.
That's on average. We can get up to 2500 hits on the busiest days.
What you have to remember is that AoS is split up into many sections, so whilst one area, such as here in Blank Canvas, could be 'dead', other zones (particularly areas of specialist interest) may have numerous very active threads, but you won't notice that if you don't look there.... :)
Marco.
fatmarley
16-09-2014, 19:51
What you have to remember is that AoS is split up into many sections, so whilst one area, such as here in Blank Canvas, could be 'dead', other zones (particularly areas of specialist interest) may have numerous very active threads, but you won't notice that if you don't look there.... :)
Marco.
I've got to admit that I only really look here and maybe the diy room. I'll have to start looking at the other areas.
Nice one, Matt - that's what being a member is all about! If you're into turntables arms and cartridges, you'll find that Analogue Art is where a lot of the 'action' is on AoS - we LURVES our T/Ts! ;)
Marco.
jandl100
17-09-2014, 09:21
I Am attending both days , cant wait , I'm getting all excited :D
will be taking the camera as well ;)
... and a PSU ;) :thumbsup:
... and a PSU ;) :thumbsup:
:popcorn:
Audio Al
19-09-2014, 12:06
Here's a taster of New Products at the show this weekend...
Product Title Exhibitor
Acoustic Signature Triple X Turntable Audio emotion
Aerial Acoustics 7T Speakers High Fidelity International
AKG K812 Harman Consumer UK
AKG Y40 Harman Consumer UK
AKG Y45 BT Harman Consumer UK
AKG Y50 Harman Consumer UK
Analogue Works CodeName ‘Fat Boy’, unveiled at the show! Devine Audio
Analogue Works TT One Devine Audio
Analogue Works TT Two Devine Audio
Analogue Works TT Zero Devine Audio
Atacama Helix ECO 3.0 Multi Media Stand Atacama
Audio Analogue Crescendo Airtech CD Player Decent Audio
Audio Analogue Crescendo Airtech Integrated Amplifier Decent Audio
Audio Analogue Fortissimo Airtech Integrated Amplifier Decent Audio
Audio Analogue Fortissmo Airtech CD Player/DAC Decent Audio
Audio Analogue Vivace Airtech DAC/Preamplifier Decent Audio
Audio Cabinet New Product Launch at NAS14 Audio Cabinet
Audio Music 833 Silver wired monoblocs LWaudio
Audio Music R-T2 two box silver reference pre amp LWaudio
Audio Physic Scorpio 25+ Loudspeaker Audio emotion
Audio Physic VCF V Magnetic decoupled feet Audio emotion
AudioQuest Wind Interconnects Audio emotion
AURALiC Aries Lightning Streamer Audio emotion
EgglestonWorks The Emma Loudspeakers Devine Audio
EgglestonWorks The Fontaine Signature Loudspeakers Devine Audio
EgglestonWorks The Nico Loudspeakers Devine Audio
EgglestonWorks The Rosa Signature Loudspeakers Devine Audio
Enklein Cables High Fidelity International
Fostex TH-500 Headphones HiFi Lounge
Harman Kardon Soho Wireless Headphones Harman Consumer UK
Heed Thesis - UK Debut Clarity Alliance
HiFiMan HE-400i Headphones HiFi Lounge
Horning systems Eufrodite loudspeakers LWaudio
Kralk Audio BC-30 Black Cats Kralk Audio
MCRU XLCR Linear Power Supply MCRU
Merrill-Williams 101.2 REAL turntable High Fidelity International
Mijajima Waza Cartridge Timestep
Music First Audio Reference MM Phono Amplifier Music First Audio
Pro-Ject MaiA Henley Designs
Pro-Ject Xtension 9 Henley Designs
Rogue Audio Cronus Magnum Integrated Valve Amplifier Devine Audio
Rogue Audio Ninety-Nine Super Magnum Pre-amplifier Devine Audio
Rogue Audio Pharaoh Integrated Valve Amplifier Devine Audio
Rogue Audio Sphinx Integrated Amplifier Devine Audio
Rogue Audio Stereo 100 Valve Power Amplifier Devine Audio
Rogue Audio Triton Solid State Phono Stage Pre-Amplifier Devine Audio
Roksan K3 Amplifier Henleys Designs
Roksan K3 CD Player Henleys Designs
Royd Audio Troubadour loudspeaker Royd Audio
Russ Andrews BMU3000 Russ Andrews Accessories
Russ Andrews SuperFuse Russ Andrews Accessories
Russ Andrews X-BLOCKS Russ Andrews Accessories
SLiC Innovations Eclipse C Interconnect MCRU
Somle Concrete - Home Cinema Stand Somle
Somle Silent - Home Cinema Stand Somle
Somle Slender-2 - Home Cinema Stand Somle
Somle Slender-3 - Home Cinema Stand Somle
Somle Symmetry - Home Cinema Stand Somle
Supra Flat 1.6 speaker cable Supra Cables and Accessories
Supra LoRad MD08 / MD10 8-way and 10-way mains blocks Supra Cables and Accessories
Supra LoRad Mk11 Shielded Mains Cable Supra Cables and Accessories
Supra Ply 3.4/W speaker cable Supra Cables and Accessories
Sutherland Engineering N1 High Fidelity International
Ultrasone Edition 5 headphones - First UK showing HiFi Lounge
Usher Audio N-6361 Floorstander Decent Audio
Vertex AQ HiRez Taga Balanced distribution block Audio emotion
Floyddroid
20-09-2014, 06:04
Have a brilliant weekend everyone.
Acapella produced some interesting mid range via an Einstein CDP and an Acepella integrated amp. Smooth, 3D, with considerable scale. A touch "warm and tubey", probably due to the Einstein CDP's output stage. Treble excellent too - certainly didn't draw attention to itself.
Bass? Less convincing. But then that is always a problem when blending horns with dynamic drivers. These seemed to lack true definition in a woolly, warm kind of way.
Realistically though probably the best sound heard today. Not my bag, too laid back for me but definitely worth hearing.
Lodgesound
20-09-2014, 17:14
Are there not any high-end studio monitoring systems on display?
I find it hard to understand why if there are not at the price points evidenced at the show.
Not much to none that I saw this afternoon. All consumer brands really.
The Acapellas are £40K BTW. Highvioloncello or something like that. You'd think the show guide would detail all the rooms but no...
Will post a few pics tomoz.
The Acapellas sounded somewhat brighter and less valve inspired today. Bass definition also appeared somewhat better. Quite how I don't know.
The system I would walk out with, on further reflection, would be the Tannoy Kingdom Royal/Thrax/MSB system. It just sounded right to me. Well over £100K though:D Hard to fault in most areas. The Thrax amps are just lovely to look at and at 70 Watts very capable with the Tannoys. Around 35K and 50K respectively. Excellent clarity and definition at all frequencies, but incisive enough not to be too smooth or boring. Great stuff.
Floyddroid
21-09-2014, 20:50
Come on chaps. There must be more of you home by now to give those of us who didn't attend the low down. Heard some good comments already about the Albarry room in a PM. There is some pictures on on PFM but it would be nice to get a full picture here on the best forum in the world. Anyone go to the Hogarth gig. Really love to have gone but didn't fancy traveling down on me own.
Come on chaps. There must be more of you home by now to give those of us who didn't attend the low down. Heard some good comments already about the Albarry room in a PM. There is some pictures on on PFM but it would be nice to get a full picture here on the best forum in the world. Anyone go to the Hogarth gig. Really love to have gone but didn't fancy traveling down on me own.
Just in. Really enjoyed the show, and good to finally meet some of you guys. A few snaps from the Albarry room:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/RFC%20Cables/004R1_zpsf229cc94.jpg
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/RFC%20Cables/002R1_zpse49129d8.jpg
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/RFC%20Cables/007R1_zps89499e9c.jpg
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/RFC%20Cables/010R1_zps1e28d936.jpg
Sovereign
21-09-2014, 21:22
Looking sweet Paul
Floyddroid
21-09-2014, 21:22
Nice
Just in. Really enjoyed the show, and good to finally meet some of you guys. A few snaps from the Albarry room:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/RFC%20Cables/004R1_zpsf229cc94.jpg
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/RFC%20Cables/002R1_zpse49129d8.jpg
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/RFC%20Cables/007R1_zps89499e9c.jpg
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/RFC%20Cables/010R1_zps1e28d936.jpg
The £93K Albarrys sounded fantastic with the £103K RFC Rhapsodys producing a show beating enigma the like of which hasn't been heard for many a ....
More seriously, at real world prices, this system sounded very nice given a smallish room. Well, I thought so but then I know the speaker's creator. Factoring that out then I'm still happy to say good sound on offer here.
fatmarley
22-09-2014, 06:26
Sound of the show for me was coming from the Acapella speakers (40k!!!). Loved the way the vocal just hung in the air. I know some people complained that it wasn't accurate but I'd take enjoyment over accuracy every time, and this system was very enjoyable!
I was surprised that I didn't like the Audio note E based system - It seemed a bit fuzzy and a touch fruity sounding, But I really enjoyed the Audio Note K room. The bass was fast and tight (sealed box) and vocals were forward but never harsh. I think the contrast in sounds I heard between the two Audio Note rooms were more to do with the music being played than the actual systems. They were playing old peoples music in the E room but much more modern music in the K room (Eg Passenger - Let her go).
I also enjoyed the Teddy Pardo room. The Alberry room was very good too. Those Rhapsody speakers are much bigger than I thought they'd be.
The Royd room surprised me because I wasn't expecting much but they were very good.
Those unusual little Pluto speakers were nice but I only heard 'Girl with guitar' type music being played through them. I doubt they'd cope with anything too heavy.
I've lost my show booklet so I can't remember the name of those active speakers that the BBC are supposed to use but I thought they were terrible.
I did some videos of some of the rooms, and listening through headphones (Sennheiser HD650), I think it gives a reasonable impression of the sound I heard. Just not sure where to upload the video. The files are around 3gb each and I filled two 16gb cards.
Glad you enjoyed it, Matt. Let’s see the vids!! :)
Marco.
Sound of the show for me was coming from the Acapella speakers (40k!!!). Loved the way the vocal just hung in the air. I know some people complained that it wasn't accurate but I'd take enjoyment over accuracy every time, and this system was very enjoyable!
I was surprised that I didn't like the Audio note E based system - It seemed a bit fuzzy and a touch fruity sounding, But I really enjoyed the Audio Note K room. The bass was fast and tight (sealed box) and vocals were forward but never harsh. I think the contrast in sounds I heard between the two Audio Note rooms were more to do with the music being played than the actual systems. They were playing old peoples music in the E room but much more modern music in the K room (Eg Passenger - Let her go).
I also enjoyed the Teddy Pardo room. The Alberry room was very good too. Those Rhapsody speakers are much bigger than I thought they'd be.
The Royd room surprised me because I wasn't expecting much but they were very good.
Those unusual little Pluto speakers were nice but I only heard 'Girl with guitar' type music being played through them. I doubt they'd cope with anything too heavy.
I've lost my show booklet so I can't remember the name of those active speakers that the BBC are supposed to use but I thought they were terrible.
I did some videos of some of the rooms, and listening through headphones (Sennheiser HD650), I think it gives a reasonable impression of the sound I heard. Just not sure where to upload the video. The files are around 3gb each and I filled two 16gb cards.
I too preferred the AN K system (even in a very echoey room) rather than the AN E system, which was bright and bloated.
Just in. Really enjoyed the show, and good to finally meet some of you guys. A few snaps from the Albarry room:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/RFC%20Cables/004R1_zpsf229cc94.jpg
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/RFC%20Cables/002R1_zpse49129d8.jpg
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/RFC%20Cables/007R1_zps89499e9c.jpg
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/RFC%20Cables/010R1_zps1e28d936.jpg
Hope you had a good show, Paul, and got out of it what you had hoped. Respect for setting up the system so well, by employing the use of proper equipment supports! ;)
Marco.
Hope you had a good show, Paul, and got out of it what you had hoped. Respect for setting up the system so well, by employing the use of proper equipment supports! ;)
Marco.
Thanks Marco
although it was primarily a room to showcase the superb Albarry kit, there was indeed a lot of interest in the Rhapodys from a diverse demographic (young and old alike from various walks) as well as from dealers, and people looking for something that allowed them to be immersed in music with a system that didn't sound too "hifi" (ie exaggerated top and bottom). We were aiming for as neutral a presentation as we could muster within that room. There were several people asking where the sub-woofer was when a few tracks with extended bass were played. I think that it was an eye opener at just how much clean bass was on tap. As for other set ups, the almost cubic proportioned room did us no favours in terms of upper mid phase distortion from reflections. Partly cured with sound deadening at the back of the room but these show-rooms are never optimal and a good few visitors recognised that. All in all a very positive experience and great to speak with so many enthusiastic people.
Hope you had a good show, Paul, and got out of it what you had hoped. Respect for setting up the system so well, by employing the use of proper equipment supports! ;)
Marco.
Nice to see a Thorens 124/II /SME combination - Quality front end! :)
Nice to see a Thorens 124/II /SME combination - Quality front end! :)
A lovely Nagoaka MP-50 on that arm too Barry...
Audio Al
22-09-2014, 14:21
My opinion of this years show is disappointment
I like to come away from a show inspired and buzzing by what I have heard
Top of my list was the Albarry room running the new M1108 Mono-Bloc Power Amplifiers along with the RFC Rhapsody Speakers , The room did these no favors at all as it was small and boxy
I listened to the Acapella speakers in my opinion the plasma tweeter we very sharp / piercing but I understand these cam be adjusted for personal taste , One other thing that put me off was the over £40K price tag , Is any speaker worth this sort of money ?
Went round and round several times looking for inspiration , gave up and went home at 2.00 pm
I understand the trade need these shows to promote the new products and the buying public like to see whats new and available , however in some rooms it was a free for all everyone piling in , some visitors did not stay and listen to one track and they were off again
Good to see some forum members
What did I buy this year ( nothing )
Not sure if I will be going next year , time will tell
A lovely Nagoaka MP-50 on that arm too Barry...
The 50, Paul, not the 500? :)
Marco.
The 50, Paul, not the 500? :)
Marco.
http://www.nagaoka-deutschland.de/Internet/MP50.jpg
;)
New version is the MP-500
The MP-50 used on the TD124 shown in the photos above is 30 years old and still sounds superb.
Same thing. New MP-500 has one or two improvements but is essentially the same cartridge. I have one for my 401. Best MM cart I've used, ever.
Ah, I see. S’ok, I also LOVE Nagaokas. IME, they’re nothing ever but fundamentally effortless music-makers :)
Marco.
Ah, I see. S’ok, I also LOVE Nagaokas. IME, they’re nothing ever but fundamentally effortless music-makers :)
Marco.
+1 with bells on
fatmarley
22-09-2014, 16:51
Glad you enjoyed it, Matt. Let’s see the vids!! :)
Marco.
They're uploading now. It's going to take hours though...
Cool… As they say, ‘good things come to those who wait’… ;)
Marco.
My opinion of this years show is disappointment
I like to come away from a show inspired and buzzing by what I have heard
Top of my list was the Albarry room running the new M1108 Mono-Bloc Power Amplifiers along with the RFC Rhapsody Speakers , The room did these no favors at all as it was small and boxy
I listened to the Acapella speakers in my opinion the plasma tweeter we very sharp / piercing but I understand these cam be adjusted for personal taste , One other thing that put me off was the over £40K price tag , Is any speaker worth this sort of money ?
The Acapella sound did change between the two days... they were definitely fiddling with something.
The show is proof for really experienced people that so much more can be done for so much less money if you know what you are doing.
I'd rank many a home system above what was heard here. Apart from the expensive Tannoy setup. If you were in there at the right time, with some decent music playing, it really was excellent. Worth the money? That's a relative thing, and depends on your inherent wealth and priorities. The Kingdom Royals Carbon Edition 2nd hand, plus a 50+ Watt tube amp of decent origin and a 2nd hand Audio Note or Lampi DAC (one of the better models) would get you damned close for massively less.
The show is proof for really experienced people that so much more can be done for so much less money if you know what you are doing…
From your comments above, and Al’s, now you know why these days I generally steer clear of commercial shows, as a) rarely do I hear recorded music at them reproduced better than I enjoy at home from my own system, and most of the time, not even remotely in the same league, and b) because of ‘a)’, and also the fact that said shows are usually held miles away from where I live, it's a total waste of my time or wear on the Pirelli P-Zeros....
However, I would’ve liked to have met Paul and listen to the Rhapsodys - and I nearly made the journey just for that! I’ll probably rectify that situation, though, by visiting him at home and hearing the Rhaps at their best :)
Marco.
130 slideshow pics here. (https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/110178171641889521518/albums/6061930085286509905/6061930111482668786?pid=6061930111482668786&oid=110178171641889521518). Select More->Slideshow from the top menu for bigger versions.
Dalek Supreme can use any pics for whatever purpose he sees fit. He asked very nicely:)
Look at the Acapella amp. It doesn't look like much but can deliver 2KW and is a tube hybrid using an E182CC. It really will drive a Scintilla, without pretending to be able to.
From your comments and Al’s, now you know why these days I generally steer clear of commercial shows, as a) rarely do I hear sounds better than I enjoy at home, and most of the time, not even remotely in the same legume, and b) because of a) and the fact that they’re usually miles away from where I live, they’re a waste of time.
Marco.
Would that be one of your "five a day" Marco? In general I have the same feelings as you regarding audio shows. I know and recognise the limitations of my system, but usually systems which better it cost at least £10,000! And some at that price sound considerably poorer.
In general, I am fed up with all this negativity. It doesn't do the hobby much good. It also destroys the confidence of people doing the demos. That doesn't help.
So suggestions as to how to make things better would be good, I think.
Number one rule is to STOP PLAYING SHIT music for christ sake. I never heard so much rubbish being played for the entire weekend. Dire, diabolical crap, TBH. Acapella you ARE guilty!
How do you get around this problem I wonder? Advertise what genre's you are going to be playing when?
I honestly think a show should be done where the dealers ARE BANNED from playing their own music selections. It works at bake offs. Why shouldn't it work at a commercial show? I think it would draw FAR MORE interest and involvement.
Would any show ever agree to it? They should... but hey... I expect they never will.
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-BSxl5BM8FUA/VCBNUaQrJvI/AAAAAAAAB8A/nE_siPoP3SI/w1061-h597-no/DSC01352
Custom paint job on a Jinro. You can spec a number of different finishes and change knobs etc so I was told. The smaller AN room did play OK music, but the larger one failed. No one seemed to like it maybe for this reason, or maybe because the room was too big, the volume low, the Es too far apart trying to compensate etc etc.
Would that be one of your "five a day" Marco?
:lolsign:
Trying to slurp a rather fine Médoc, whilst typing, is an onerous task! :eyebrows:
Marco.
:lolsign:
Trying to slurp a rather fine Médoc, whilst typing, is an onerous task! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Ummm - do tell!
I’ll slip it into the wine thread later, baby! ;)
Marco.
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-CnpC9tW08v4/VCBPxMPn04I/AAAAAAAACEo/K5qsAu-NO-A/w1061-h597-no/DSC01432
With the necessary qualification that you were in here at the right time, this Teddy Pardo system was very good. The speaker is a Teddy Pardo special. I asked him if it was using the same drivers as Avalons, he said it was possible:D A nice fellow all the way from Israel. You can'f buy the speakers, the driving kit was all Teddy's and it worked very well.
Watching the man, you could tell he was really touched by people enjoying his system. Top marks - he cares, which is why he gets results, I think. He is passionate about his work.
purite audio
22-09-2014, 17:59
Thanks for posting the photographs J, how many rooms where there in total, I presume there were some you didn't photograph?
Keith.
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-m3EiRdmY5ls/VCBRuWKhZRI/AAAAAAAACLE/vG7f6m7yYpg/w1061-h597-no/DSC01498
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-rttFFssLRQE/VCBR-khRB5I/AAAAAAAACLc/O2cuDBdlm_c/w1061-h597-no/DSC01502
I liked this Gamut based system quite a bit. Trouble is the people I was with thought there was something quite wrong with it, though they couldn't put their finger on it. I thought it imaged very well, sounded reasonably full range for its size, and was obviously being fed a fantastic analogue input from the Clearaudio.
The VW van drives round records and plays the music. Coolest gadget there. Good stocking filler but Oxfam records only I was told.
I spent a bit too much time doing socials to capture the smaller rooms following in from the main entrance Keith. The show was smaller than usual in terms of room occupancy. Not sure of the number and can't find the show guide now we are back:D
EDIT: I also missed quite a few other rooms too. I'm slacking I'm afraid:D
In general, I am fed up with all this negativity. It doesn't do the hobby much good.
You’re probably right, but we live in hope that one year sonic standards will improve!
The whole point of attending a high-end hi-fi show is surely to leave thinking: ‘Wow, that was superb, you can certainly hear the difference between those £200k systems and my £2k one at home, as they fundamentally advance the art of reproducing recorded music’.
How many of us here can say we’ve ever felt that way after attending one of these shows? Anyway, Justin, superb pics as usual. Your efforts, in that respect, are a credit to the forum! :clap:
Marco.
I spent a bit too much time doing socials to capture the smaller rooms following in from the main entrance Keith. The show was smaller than usual in terms of room occupancy. Not sure of the number and can't find the show guide now we are back:D
EDIT: I also missed quite a few other rooms too. I'm slacking I'm afraid:D
Great piccies Justin, l felt like l saved the entrance fee.:D
Well thanks for the praise Marco but I spent most of my time discussing my next pair of Apogees with the restorer, that's why I didn't take snaps of all of the show.
The thing is, I know full well that you could make some excellent systems with some of the components at the show, put together in a sympathetic way, played at the right volume with the right music etc.
For instance, see below.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-yKlK-MfT3Ck/VCBQOlZf8BI/AAAAAAAACF8/u-WrkBbb2Dc/w1061-h597-no/DSC01447
Both Jerry and I thought this system sounded too smooth. But what are Wilson's really good at? The simple answer, is when stretched, they can achieve astonishing volume levels and incredible bass levels without strain. Was this exploited at the show? No.
I asked the demonstrator at the end of the show on Sunday to turn it up. There were 4 people in the room. I got about a decibel. I then asked him to turn it up so it was really quite loud. I got another decibel. WTF?
Sell systems on their strengths. The meagre volume level with never blow anyone away. I have to say I am sorry if anyone is offended by volume but TBH if you don't like it go elsewhere. Volume is essential to blow anyone away. 80DB just isn't going to.
Agreed !what a load of wingers !
Audio is a hobby
Your all supposed to be music and hifi enthusiasts so get off your arses and listen to stuff,yes some of the music played is shit,so take your own and get them to play it not rocket science really
friend and I had great day got there at 10.30 left around 5pm an interesting show
Some great sounding kit
In general, I am fed up with all this negativity. It doesn't do the hobby much good. It also destroys the confidence of people doing the demos. That doesn't help.
So suggestions as to how to make things better would be good, I think.
Number one rule is to STOP PLAYING SHIT music for christ sake. I never heard so much rubbish being played for the entire weekend. Dire, diabolical crap, TBH. Acapella you ARE guilty!
How do you get around this problem I wonder? Advertise what genre's you are going to be playing when?
I honestly think a show should be done where the dealers ARE BANNED from playing their own music selections. It works at bake offs. Why shouldn't it work at a commercial show? I think it would draw FAR MORE interest and involvement.
Would any show ever agree to it? They should... but hey... I expect they never will.
jandl100
22-09-2014, 19:24
Hmm, I guess I'll have to edit my show write-up to remove the negativity. The trouble is there wouldn't be that much left. ;)
There were a lot of expensive / poor sounding systems imho.
Probably my favourite room was the small Kralk Audio room. Small speakers that looked like LS3/5a and sounded like them except with decent bass. £300-ish. Tbh they embarassed many systems costing 10x or 100x more. Lovely vintage Sansui amplification to drive them. :drool:
Other great sounds came from PMC 26 speakers driven by Chord amps - I was seriously impressed, although they are £9k or so, I think, they'd be on my list if I was looking at up to £10k or so worth of speaker. I've never heard deeper and better controlled bass - but the rest of the sound was excellent, too.
The Acapella once again failed to excite me - 2 dems now, 1 Scalford, 1 at this show, and the ionic tweeter seems turned up too high on both occasions. I think it comes down to musical genre - they certainly sound impressive playing electronica but the hyped treble is revealed when acoustic material is played. And the bass was a bit disorganised as well.
Damn, I'm being negative! :doh: Nicely open and detailed mids - there, I liked something about them! :D
Surprisingly, one of the high spots for me was the Icon Audio room where they were playing the big B&W-Chinese-knock-off speakers driven by gorgeous looking Ming Da valve amps - George Michael, Buddy can you spare a dime was excellent - I really enjoyed that! :thumbsup:
Without doubt the best aspect of the Show was going around it with the good company of some hifi buddies. :)
Best go to the hifi news show if you want good sounds, not that I've been but the kit list seems impressive. Can't be bothered with either show myself. I've got all the kit I need and not interested in changing anything so can' t be arsed anymore.
The drive units in the Teddy Pardo speakers are by Accuton - also used by Avalon and a few other high end brands.
Really sorry to miss you Jerry - I did go to Paul's room as soon as I got to the show but we were a bit late thanks to the enforced 50mph zones on the motorway. Paul's speakers sounded very good - the best I have ever heard Albarry amps perform by some margin.
jandl100
22-09-2014, 21:53
Yep, shame Mark - I was touring the Show with some friends so couldn't stay in Paul's room for long enough!
I kept an eye out for your T-shirt, but alas to no avail.
Clive197
22-09-2014, 22:08
It seems to me that all you guys are just looking at kit that cost telephone numbers.
I enjoyed the show. Henley Distributers were real world to me. Ok I did buy a new Ortofon which I hope to get next week.
I very much liked the new Roksan K3. So much better than K2 which was mainly marmite ( you either loved it or hated it), I hated it
They also had a good display of Turntable going from ridiculously cheap to very expensive. Vinyl is re-affirming its popularity with the masses.
The headphone area was exceptional, the best the show has ever done. Software was as usual being promoted by Diverse, who managed to get me to part with money for two Jeff Beck vinyls.
David, he of MCRU fame was also making himself loud and proud and making me part with some wedge for the MNB. He also showed me 1m Ethernet cable for £530. I declined the offer.
I spent some time talking to the Tech guy from OPPO who told me that there will be a new firmware upgrade soon which hopefully will sort out the non gapless streaming for music on the 105D players. The Beta version was released last Monday. He kindley gave me a couple of USB stick and a bag! (I have spent a lot on OPPO gear so didn't feel I was taking the pi.. (Rhymes with miss)
I was disappointed with most of the rooms upstairs, they still can't get them to sound good. Amazes me how people can sit there nodding and saying how wonderful the sound is!!!! I did take the opportunity to speak to Mark Baker of Origin Live who looked rather lonely when I stuck me head round the door.
Anyway a rather nice day out but parted with too much money. Don't ask what cartridge I bought in case Her Indoors reads this, I'll just say Black.
Clive
fatmarley
23-09-2014, 06:25
Right, I'm no Ridley Scott and In my defence I was trying to keep the camera central to get the best sound. I used up my free 12gb at Mediafire so I had to miss a few off. I may open up an account with Vimeo to try and get the last few videos in. I wish I'd shot in manual beacause the AN-K room is badly underexposed but I didn't want to risk messing things up so kept it simple.
http://www.mediafire.com/watch/nd95dkci8eb2skt/MVI_2104_Audio_Note_K_Speakers.MOV
http://www.mediafire.com/watch/xbl11yxpdrn7bsd/MVI_2099_Royd_2.MOV
http://www.mediafire.com/watch/ap72pbqi2rx85e4/MVI_2105_Acapella_Speakers.MOV
http://www.mediafire.com/watch/077j9jnd7z6js35/MVI_2096_Reference_Rhapsody_2.MOV
pure sound
23-09-2014, 06:52
Thanks for the pics Justin. Very sharp & clear.
I'm not surprised to hear that the larger AN system struggled in that barn of a room. A few years back I did the show with the guys from Aspara Horns & they had been unexpectedly 'upgraded' to that room. Even their larger HL1 (efficient & capable of playing very loud) struggled to fill it so a conventional domestic speaker would inevitably sound lost in there. The other issue was a significantly long reverberation time which meant that some program material was swamped by reflections from the high ceiling & walls. The room was too large to even consider trying any form of acoustic treatment, particularly of the kind that could be put in the day before. Perhaps speakers like the big Tannoys would be ok but they'd probably be better restricting rooms that size to static displays.
mjkelshaw
23-09-2014, 07:12
130 slideshow pics here. (https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/110178171641889521518/albums/6061930085286509905/6061930111482668786?pid=6061930111482668786&oid=110178171641889521518). Select More->Slideshow from the top menu for bigger versions.
Dalek Supreme can use any pics for whatever purpose he sees fit. He asked very nicel.
Justin,
Might I enquire if you or any of the members can identify the turntable shown on your side No. 12? Is it an 'upgraded' version of the Analogueworks turntable?
Regards
Mike Kelshaw
Yep, shame Mark - I was touring the Show with some friends so couldn't stay in Paul's room for long enough!
I kept an eye out for your T-shirt, but alas to no avail.
Oh, I was wearing it (the T-shirt). After visiting Paul my friends wanted to go to the Teddy Pardo talk on 'The Importance of Power Supplies' (I don't know why as they both already know plenty about power supplies) and it went on for what seemed like eternity. In the end we left before the end but the time it had taken* did mean that I spent the rest of the day running round the rest of the show like a loony!
* Teddy came over as a lovely chap but this was not a good seminar IMO. In a recent thread Marco bemoaned the lack of question and answer opportunities in demos - in contrast, Teddy did give quite a few opportunities for people to ask questions. The very first question was "how can a capacitor that is in parallel do anything"! Teddy was thrown for a minute as, no doubt, he expected the questions to be slightly less 'electrickery 101' and slightly more directly related to what he had been talking about - such is the issue with question and answer sessions. I fully expected the next question to be "is black your favourite colour and, if it isn't, why did you then choose it for the cases of your amps" - thankfully, it was not!
In a recent thread Marco bemoaned the lack of question and answer opportunities in demos - in contrast, Teddy did give quite a few opportunities for people to ask questions.
So he wan’t standing up on his ‘altar', preaching, and demonstrating his wisdom to all and sundry? That makes a change from what I’ve experienced during most of these sessions. In that case, I’m glad to hear it!
The very first question was "how can a capacitor that is in parallel do anything"! Teddy was thrown for a minute as, no doubt, he expected the questions to be slightly less 'electrickery 101’…
How did he answer the question?
Marco.
So he wan’t standing up on his ‘altar', preaching, and demonstrating his wisdom to all and sundry? That makes a change from what I’ve experienced during most of these sessions. In that case, I’m glad to hear it!
Well, he sort of was, but then it was a lecture (not a demo) and that is rather the nature of lectures - they aren't supposed to be a discussion. To be honest, I thought there was too much discussion and not enough lecture.
How did he answer the question?
I'm not sure I understand what you mean? I can't remember what exactly he said because I wasn't paying close attention at that point (as I know how a capacitor in parallel works), he was polite and explained the basic concept I think - he probably also explained that it wasn't really pertinent to what he was trying to explain/demonstrate (which it wasn't).
Well, he sort of was, but then it was a lecture (not a demo) and that is rather the nature of lectures - they aren't supposed to be a discussion. To be honest, I thought there was too much discussion and not enough lecture.
Well, Mark, that’s where you an I differ. I dislike being lectured to, especially when a lecturer prefers the sound of his own voice to that of any feedback from the audience, as the end result is that the lecturer (in this case audio manufacturer) learns precious little about the views/needs of his potential customers.
Fortunately, it seems that the Teddy Pardo ‘lecture' wasn’t like that.
For me, when that happens, it’s an epic fail, in terms of what members of the trade attending hi-fi shows should be all about: generating sales and/or improving products, through obtaining a better understanding of what it is your current and target customers think/want.
That’s what the exercise should be about, not demonstrating how ‘clever' you are!
Marco.
Beobloke
23-09-2014, 13:41
I dislike being lectured to, especially when a lecturer prefers the sound of his own voice to that of any feedback from the audience, as the end result is that the lecturer (in this case audio manufacturer) learns precious little about the views/needs of his potential customers.
This is all very well, but if the question and answer session kicks off with someone who doesn't even know what a capacitor does, I strongly suspect that the manufacturer in question won't learn much about the needs of said customer as this probably won't go much beyond "I want it to sound nice"!
Personally, I like to hear the ethos behind a manufacturer's designs and am happy to listen to what they have to say. Just because they are taking the time to do this doesn't mean I'm being "lectured at".
This is all very well, but if the question and answer session kicks off with someone who doesn't even know what a capacitor does, I strongly suspect that the manufacturer in question won't learn much about the needs of said customer as this probably won't go much beyond "I want it to sound nice"!
Personally, I like to hear the ethos behind a manufacturer's designs and am happy to listen to what they have to say. Just because they are taking the time to do this doesn't mean I'm being "lectured at".
Yeah, I agree. Teddy was very humble and talked very well I thought - the problem was that it's difficult to pitch the explanation at the right technical level - on the one hand we have people who don't know what a capacitor is and then we also have people who want to know the precise balance of decision making when choosing specific circuit topologies - you just can't cater for that level of knowledge within the same talk.
-----
The point of a lecture isn't to share information, it's for the lecturer to disseminate information to the student(s).
This is all very well, but if the question and answer session kicks off with someone who doesn't even know what a capacitor does, I strongly suspect that the manufacturer in question won't learn much about the needs of said customer as this probably won't go much beyond "I want it to sound nice"!
Personally, I like to hear the ethos behind a manufacturer's designs and am happy to listen to what they have to say. Just because they are taking the time to do this doesn't mean I'm being "lectured at".
There's two different things; a lecture, where you want to hear what the person giving the talk has to say, because he/she knows a lot more than you do and can, ideally, convey that knowledge in an interesting/amusing way, and a seminar, where audience participation is expected and welcomed because the idea is to pool the knowledge within the room to everyone's benefit. The person in charge of a seminar should encourage people to speak out, and perhaps pose some pertinent questions to stimulate discussion, but ideally should not do much of the talking.
There'd be no point my attending a technical presentation because it would fly over my head, but a layperson's primer on why certain design decisions are taken might be helpful, especially if accompanied by demonstrations of how the design translates into the sound of a component/system. The problem, of course, is that what is interesting to one person will be technobabble to someone else, whereas what a non-expert might think of as a reasonable question might seem knuckle-dragglingly dumb to a technically literate person.
There's two different things; a lecture, where you want to hear what the person giving the talk has to say, because he/she knows a lot more than you do and can, ideally, convey that knowledge in an interesting/amusing way, and a seminar, where audience participation is expected and welcomed because the idea is to pool the knowledge within the room to everyone's benefit. The person in charge of a seminar should encourage people to speak out, and perhaps pose some pertinent questions to stimulate discussion, but ideally should not do much of the talking.
There'd be no point my attending a technical presentation because it would fly over my head, but a layperson's primer on why certain design decisions are taken might be helpful, especially if accompanied by demonstrations of how the design translates into the sound of a component/system. The problem, of course, is that what is interesting to one person will be technobabble to someone else, whereas what a non-expert might think of as a reasonable question might seem knuckle-dragglingly dumb to a technically literate person.
I completely agree (with everything you’ve written), however, in reference to the emboldened text, which do you think has its place more at a hi-fi show, a lecture or a seminar?
For me, it’s unquestionably the latter, as the ultimate goal (unless exhibitors are attending the show simply for the good of their health, or an ego trip), is to sell product - and that goal, IMO, isn’t best served by not allowing/minimising feedback from potential customers in the audience.
Marco.
The point of a lecture isn't to share information, it's for the lecturer to disseminate information to the student(s).
Sounds like a fun day out - not! ;)
However, I appreciate where you’re coming from, and am pleased to hear that Teddy was a down-to-earth, approachable type, and not one of these rather aloof smart arses, who think they know it all, simply because they’re technically minded and know how to use a soldering iron.
The best teachers (and I speak not only from my own personal experience, but also from my wife’s experiences daily, as a college lecturer), are those who can empathise with their students and impart information in a way that isn’t considered as arrogant, i.e. the motivation to educate them is for *their* benefit, and not simply to showcase how clever you are.
Marco.
I completely agree (with everything you’ve written), however, in reference to the emboldened text, which do you think has its place more at a hi-fi show, a lecture or a seminar? For me, it’s unquestionably the latter, as the ultimate goal (unless exhibitors are there simply for the good of their health, or an ego trip), is to sell product.
Marco.
There's no reason not to have both. For many years I attended a conference held at a major UK university. There were lectures, seminars, presentations etc running in parallel. The prgramme for the conference was published well in advance, so you had the chance to sign up for whatever interested you, depending on your own technical knowledge and areas of interest.
The problem really is that few designers are much good at 'selling' stuff; they get impatient with what they see as dumb questions, for example, so a seminar-type session wouldn't be helpful either to them to to their audience. And the trouble with the 'salesmen' type (the Ivor T's of this world) is that presentation is all; they do the selling bit, but you come away knowing not much more than when you went in.
What's more, presentation is an art in itself; the very best one I've ever attended was given by an ex-CIA security expert who at the time was employed by Microsoft. Not only was the content of his talk interesting, his presentational skills were top-notch and he held an audience of several hundred riveted for 90 minutes or so. By contrast, some of the more 'expert' sessions were led by people who could barely make themselves heard, and who read from their notes throughout.
Maybe a 'round table' approach would be better, combining people who know their technical onions with people who can sell things. Plus it would help if attendees knew as much as possible about what they were signing up for; a technical talk or a user-friendly session with people who can talk plain English.
You make some good points, most of which I agree with, especially this:
The problem really is that few designers are much good at 'selling’ stuff...
Ain’t that the truth, which unfortunately is why the businesses of many sole traders in the industry fail. The fact is, building something and selling something requires two very different skill sets. You need to be a ‘people person’ to succeed at the latter, and in my experience few audio designers are blessed with having that particular trait ;)
There's no reason not to have both.
Indeed, providing that your audience knows exactly what they’re getting beforehand, and are ‘in tune’ with your mindset.
Speaking as a long-term salesman, who runs a successful company, essentially based around selling luxury items (artwork) to people, there is one golden rule for success, and that is: know your target customer and understand their needs. Furthermore, you must have the ability to ‘tailor your pitch’ to them accordingly.
For example, a lecture or seminar given by a manufacturer, which is rather heavily biased towards technical details, is going to turn off a potential customer who is only interested in the sound quality and/or looks of that product - and as I would guess that the majority of people who attend hi-fi shows are non-technically minded, if that approach is chosen, the risk of alienating and possibly deterring them from buying your product, is significant.
Therefore, if exhibitors are going to become involved in the business of holding seminars or lectures at hi-fi shows, the exercise has to be thought out very carefully.
Marco.
The one and only show video I shot. Embedding utube vids hasn't worked well recently. So just hit the utube logo if it doesn't work. A 720p HD version will be selectable once utube has processed the upload fully.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKTLMOluNmM&feature=youtube_gdata
Thanks for the pics Justin. Very sharp & clear.
I'm not surprised to hear that the larger AN system struggled in that barn of a room. A few years back I did the show with the guys from Aspara Horns & they had been unexpectedly 'upgraded' to that room. Even their larger HL1 (efficient & capable of playing very loud) struggled to fill it so a conventional domestic speaker would inevitably sound lost in there. The other issue was a significantly long reverberation time which meant that some program material was swamped by reflections from the high ceiling & walls. The room was too large to even consider trying any form of acoustic treatment, particularly of the kind that could be put in the day before. Perhaps speakers like the big Tannoys would be ok but they'd probably be better restricting rooms that size to static displays.
Thanks.
It was 2009 Guy - and here is a couple of snaps of the 6 or so I have of your setup. The ceiling is also highly irregular, with huge beams. Mind you, it is a long way up! Agreed the room is hard to drive. Some huge planars would maybe fit the bill. Even then...:D
Looking at the 2009 snaps there was some good kit there. Above 2014 by some margin. Slippery slope? I think the forums are killing it a bit TBH.
As I remember it somehow the Asparas sounded OK in there (I really liked them TBH) compared to this years AN setup.
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-GBs6A1r2h_w/VCHVgnCv4jI/AAAAAAAACM8/IyzdJ1blSOU/w796-h597-no/SDC11962
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-O-1Er__a6Cw/VCHVjOgTFMI/AAAAAAAACNE/ENi8M4oEGM0/w796-h597-no/SDC11968
Justin,
Might I enquire if you or any of the members can identify the turntable shown on your side No. 12? Is it an 'upgraded' version of the Analogueworks turntable?
Regards
Mike Kelshaw
It is Analogueworks. There were a few in there.
"Divine Audio will be showing the Analogue Works Turntable Zero, One, Two and the prototype "FatBoy" from the Northamptonshire based turntable manufacturer. "
[QUOTE=User211;583332]
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-GBs6A1r2h_w/VCHVgnCv4jI/AAAAAAAACM8/IyzdJ1blSOU/w796-h597-no/SDC11962
that guy's a fukk*n legend.
Born in the USA homage...
Who is he?
For a little R&R I went for a Porsche Driving Experience at Silverstone the following Monday. Drove a Boxster around a number of circuits/hazards. Truly great fun - highly recommended.
Here's a few snaps, including a 550A - James Dean's terminator - only 130BHP as it turns out - and £3 million for this restoration. An original is £6 million.
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-NTjszw6R3xY/VCHbcHHAgCI/AAAAAAAACNw/qkNa_pT3CqM/w1061-h597-no/DSC01538
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-E1XPWayfipU/VCHbTlPHZSI/AAAAAAAACNU/p8dXpZeoIvM/w1061-h597-no/DSC01526
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-LmBpbkFuKgs/VCHbV4Me6vI/AAAAAAAACNc/Vt66v1L8-BY/w1061-h597-no/DSC01528
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-dCnsrHe2FYQ/VCHbaJgXskI/AAAAAAAACNo/SYhlKAddxwU/w1061-h597-no/DSC01530
[QUOTE=User211;583332]
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-GBs6A1r2h_w/VCHVgnCv4jI/AAAAAAAACM8/IyzdJ1blSOU/w796-h597-no/SDC11962
that guy's a fukk*n legend.
Born in the USA homage...
Who is he?
Some fucktard who wouldn't get out of the way, so I gave up and took the shot. No respect...:D
I shot him dead later.
dp*
Double porn star? Thanks.
:)
Some fucktard who wouldn't get out of the way, so I gave up and took the shot. No respect...:D
I shot him dead later.
Hahahahahaha…. Did you actually ask him to get out of the way, and he just parked his ass there regardless?
Marco.
Sounds like a fun day out - not! ;)
However, I appreciate where you’re coming from, and am pleased to hear that Teddy was a down-to-earth, approachable type, and not one of these rather aloof smart arses, who think they know it all, simply because they’re technically minded and know how to use a soldering iron.
The best teachers (and I speak not only from my own personal experience, but also from my wife’s experiences daily, as a college lecturer), are those who can empathise with their students and impart information in a way that isn’t considered as arrogant, i.e. the motivation to educate them is for *their* benefit, and not simply to showcase how clever you are.
Marco.
Well I hear what you are saying, but the subtlety you refer to is very much in the ear of the listener, to one it may seem informative, to another patronising. I could, if I so chose, be very critical of a lot of what was said (or rather not said) but that would not be very fair. Teddy didn't know any of those present but was expected to deliver a lecture/presentation for Everyman - an Impossible task. Ultimately, you can't empathise with people whose motivations are unknown to you. The reality is that a lecture is a one sided dissemination of info and a seminar is a lecture with a question and answer section attached. What you are asking for is a peer discussion forum but that just doesn't work unless a level of vetting is applied or you end up with with the discussion being derailed by obliquely basic questions like 'how does a capacitor work'. This is, in itself, a valid question but is so far from the level required to discuss the actual point of the seminar as to render it meaningless. A question such as this only tells the lecturer that the student knows practically nothing about the subject being discussed, which isn't really anything of value that they can take away with them.
Thanks.
It was 2009 Guy - and here is a couple of snaps of the 6 or so I have of your setup. The ceiling is also highly irregular, with huge beams. Mind you, it is a long way up! Agreed the room is hard to drive. Some huge planars would maybe fit the bill. Even then...:D
Looking at the 2009 snaps there was some good kit there. Above 2014 by some margin. Slippery slope? I think the forums are killing it a bit TBH.
As I remember it somehow the Asparas sounded OK in there (I really liked them TBH) compared to this years AN setup.
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-GBs6A1r2h_w/VCHVgnCv4jI/AAAAAAAACM8/IyzdJ1blSOU/w796-h597-no/SDC11962
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-O-1Er__a6Cw/VCHVjOgTFMI/AAAAAAAACNE/ENi8M4oEGM0/w796-h597-no/SDC11968
I remember hearing the Asparas at Whittlebury a few years ago and found them 'interesting'. Overall quite good (and in general, I'm no great lover of horn-loaded speakers), but thought the integration between the tweeter and woofer could be better.
Are the Asparas still made?
Hahahahahaha…. Did you actually ask him to get out of the way, and he just parked his ass there regardless?
Marco.
No, but taking a leak on hi-fi is a crime punishable by death... unless you're really pissed, of course:D
Honestly, it wasn't worth the effort of asking. Just annoying, really, as I am sure I am when taking photos of show kit.
Well I hear what you are saying, but the subtlety you refer to is very much in the ear of the listener, to one it may seem informative, to another patronising. I could, if I so chose, be very critical of a lot of what was said (or rather not said) but that would not be very fair. Teddy didn't know any of those present but was expected to deliver a lecture/presentation for Everyman - an Impossible task. Ultimately, you can't empathise with people whose motivations are unknown to you. The reality is that a lecture is a one sided dissemination of info and a seminar is a lecture with a question and answer section attached. What you are asking for is a peer discussion forum but that just doesn't work unless a level of vetting is applied or you end up with with the discussion being derailed by obliquely basic questions like 'how does a capacitor work'. This is, in itself, a valid question but is so far from the level required to discuss the actual point of the seminar as to render it meaningless. A question such as this only tells the lecturer that the student knows practically nothing about the subject being discussed, which isn't really anything of value that they can take away with them.
I do wholeheartedly agree, Mark. I was simply making a point earlier about a particular bugbear of mine, and I think the message has now been received! ;)
Marco.
No, but taking a leak on hi-fi is a crime punishable by death... unless you're really pissed, of course:D
Honestly, it wasn't worth the effort of asking. Just annoying, really, as I am sure I am when taking photos of show kit.
HA - I’d have to told him, in no uncertain terms, (as they say in Glasgow) to 'shift yer bahookey’!!!
Marco.
pure sound
25-09-2014, 08:30
Are the Asparas still made?
I think there was a falling out between Brian Taylor the main designer (who could be quite 'challenging' to work with) and the rest of their team so no, I don't think they are currently being made.
My 2 penneth - YMMV
This was my first audio show of any kind and I made a four hour trip each way to see it, all in a day, so I had made considerable effort and expectations were high.
First of all, for those that don’t know this show, it is aimed more at the high end, so no contributions from brands like Pioneer, Rotel, or Mission/Cyrus. The exceptions at real world prices were Musical Fidelity, Pro-Ject and Roksan.
I saw a pair of speaker cables for sale, they had their own flight case, were ex-demo and at a knock down show price, they still cost as much as my whole system, but it’s nice to see how the other half live. :D
I listened to the Pro-Ject Box-Design “RS” components through a pair of Roksan Darius S1 stand mount speakers and it is one of the lasting memories of the show for me, very nice sound, punchy and well timed, with surprisingly good bass for such small enclosures.
For those complaining about the type of music being played and yes some of it was dire, did you take any or ask for it to be changed? I found a lot of people would just sit quietly and then shuffle off without saying anything. I found folks only to willing to change to whatever I requested and one chap next to me had them play his favourite Dolly Parton CD – brave man, but it brought a smile to everyone’s face and showed off a different acoustic style and went down rather well.
One of the first rooms I went in was demoing the KEF Blades, these were the buzz word at the show but for all the wrong reasons and I have to agree they just didn’t perform. The staff made excuses about the room, which was of cubic proportions, but hey, I would love to have a room as good, we don’t all live in perfectly proportioned Anechoic Chambers. Some of the most impressive gear for me, was that which produced the goods regardless of conditions.
I would agree that the Audio Note AN-E’s didn’t impress, even in the large room and they sounded terribly coloured to me. Their stand mount AN-K’s in the smaller room sounded much nicer to my ears.
Also a thumbs up for the Teddy Pardo system, sat and listened to that for some time, very musical.
It’s strange but now I think about it, I based all my assessments on the speakers. The front ends and amps were all very impressive but being the last link in the chain and quite often the weakest, the speakers are what convert the electrical to the musical and seem to have the overall make or break effect on any system.
I’ve been reading a lot of good stuff about the Albarry gear and a listen to their set up soon had me hooked, a pair of 608 monoblocks will be at the top of my very long xmas list.
Paul Coupe (Reffc) had his Rhapsody’s hooked up in the Albarry system and I was very impressed with these speakers. Paul was not quite happy with the way they were working in the room regarding lower mid range but I think he was being hard on himself. I would rather have the Rhapsody than the KEF Blades and be ten grand better off in the process.
The Tannoy Kingdom Royal were very very impressive, as they should be for the price, Chello you could feel. But the overall best and most realistic sounding speaker/system for me, was Horning Hybrids flagship, the “Eufrodite Zigma Ultimate” didn’t dare ask the price, but the baby of the range starts at £10k. The Eufrodite has a Lowther mid driver and four 8” bass drivers round the back mounted externally and firing into the horn loaded cabinet. The Dundee 6’s were part of the system in the Alacrity Audio room and were displaying best sounding room of show, not in my view. Like many of the two way floor standers they just sounded unconvincing, but then again you are comparing this:
http://www.jkwynn.co.uk/Pics/nas14_01.jpg
“Dundee 6” speakers in Alacrity Audio room.
With this:
http://www.jkwynn.co.uk/Pics/nas14_02.jpg
Horning Hybrid “Eufredite Zigma Ultimate” in the LW-Audio room.
I won’t be doing this kind of show again for a while but it gave me a taste for what is happening at the high end and also an appreciation of how good some of the more realistically priced gear can sound. More importantly, it made me realize how well my own humble system performs in real world domestic conditions and I came away feeling rather smug about that.
mr sneff
25-09-2014, 12:20
Nice write-up Ken
More importantly, it made me realize how well my own humble system performs in real world domestic conditions and I came away feeling rather smug about that.
That is usually the feeling I have after visiting these shows. In my case, it is a feeling of quiet satisfaction, rather than one of smugness, that my modest system (modest in comparison to some of the uber-expensive systems demonstrated) continues to provide me with enormous musical pleasure.
It is always useful to hear what is the current 'state of the art', as it is to hear what can be achieved for less; much less. So in that respect I am quite often hugely disappointed by demonstrations hosted by the likes of Absolute Sounds. (Were they at Whittlebury this year?)
Great write up by the way.
Absolute Sounds weren't there Barry.
Thanks for the comments on the write up guys.
I really enjoyed the show - Looking forward to Owston now. :D
Floyddroid
25-09-2014, 20:14
Great review Ken. Wish i had of known you were going we could have travelled there together.
Absolute Sounds weren't there Barry.
Thanks for the comments on the write up guys.
I really enjoyed the show - Looking forward to Owston now. :D
Steve - It was very much a last minute decision to go.
I thought about posting on here to see if anyone else nearby fancied it but didn't really have time to organise it.
Are you still going to Owston?
I will be going for a day trip, not overnight.
Just read your write up Ken. Good stuff.
Nothing gives me more satisfaction with my relatively modest and mainstream system than hearing something pricey and exotic and not being taken with it.
Enjoyed your review Ken, reinforces some of my views/experiences of trade type shows [mine were late 70,s at Harrogate].Just goes to show that if you want knowledge and wisdom - go to a NEBO type show
Regarding the Aspara speakers, I once saw a plot of their frequency response. You'd need a good 4X4 if you ever drove over a road that bumpy.
My 2 penneth - YMMV
With this:
http://www.jkwynn.co.uk/Pics/nas14_02.jpg
Horning Hybrid “Eufredite Zigma Ultimate” in the LW-Audio room.
I won’t be doing this kind of show again for a while but it gave me a taste for what is happening at the high end and also an appreciation of how good some of the more realistically priced gear can sound. More importantly, it made me realize how well my own humble system performs in real world domestic conditions and I came away feeling rather smug about that.
Those AM 805 amps - look to me like a straight copy of Wavac 805's. Chap I know has then (in Oz), apparently totally brilliant. He previously had the M100's made by the previous incarnation of AM Audio (I forget the name). Made by a bloke called Feng in China to a very high standard. Anyone tried, or own, any of his kit?
Understood the Hornings are unbeatable as long as your head is clamped to a post in the listening position. Is this still the case, or has dispersion improved. What is that bass array all about?
Yes, I thought they were the Wavacs when I first saw them.
Those AM 805 amps - look to me like a straight copy of Wavac 805's. Chap I know has then (in Oz), apparently totally brilliant. He previously had the M100's made by the previous incarnation of AM Audio (I forget the name). Made by a bloke called Feng in China to a very high standard. Anyone tried, or own, any of his kit?
Understood the Hornings are unbeatable as long as your head is clamped to a post in the listening position. Is this still the case, or has dispersion improved. What is that bass array all about?
I believe they are 833s. I had a long chat with Ian. In fact they are the silver wired version and cost £24K for 130 Watts. £20K for the copper wired.
The transformer based passive looks pretty amazing for the 2K being asked, compared to Music First prices. Here's a link to an overview of all photos (https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/110178171641889521518/albums/6061930085286509905).
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-J7xfElPd-iM/VCBPOTm1FpI/AAAAAAAACDI/mWNvkvoy4-A/w1061-h597-no/DSC01419
They also so a very nice, two box, pre-amp that was very favourably reviewed bt Martin Colloms (I believe).
Those AM 805 amps - look to me like a straight copy of Wavac 805's. Chap I know has then (in Oz), apparently totally brilliant. He previously had the M100's made by the previous incarnation of AM Audio (I forget the name). Made by a bloke called Feng in China to a very high standard. Anyone tried, or own, any of his kit?
Understood the Hornings are unbeatable as long as your head is clamped to a post in the listening position. Is this still the case, or has dispersion improved. What is that bass array all about?
It's a push-pull configuration (so the chap from the demo room stated) firing into a rear cavity which Horning describe as a double asymmetric quarter wave loaded cabinet using individual driver loading which fires into a single hyperbolic shaped output pipe with port loading. The idea is for seamless integration of drive units through clever loading and blending. I had a similar system on my old Agathon Ultimates which use twin Beyma 12 inch bass units but these were too large and had too much inertia to keep up with the mid driver so bass overhang was an issue. Not so with the Euphrodites which has a better design using much lower inertia drivers into a more refined design. Possibly the best Horning speaker made?
I did listen to the Horning system but when I was there they were playing quite sparse piano and it was difficult to draw any meaningful conclusions :(.
It's a push-pull configuration (so the chap from the demo room stated) firing into a rear cavity which Horning describe as a double asymmetric quarter wave loaded cabinet using individual driver loading which fires into a single hyperbolic shaped output pipe with port loading. The idea is for seamless integration of drive units through clever loading and blending. I had a similar system on my old Agathon Ultimates which use twin Beyma 12 inch bass units but these were too large and had too much inertia to keep up with the mid driver so bass overhang was an issue. Not so with the Euphrodites which has a better design using much lower inertia drivers into a more refined design. Possibly the best Horning speaker made?
Holy moly canoli, that's a lot of long words. Doesn't sound cheap either. I seem to remember Jim at Lincs Audio used to like them, before he retired, especially for valve amps.
Personally in love with Harbeth SHL5+ and cannot image having a floor stander again (and wife has ruled them out). The little Audio Notes were my favourite speaker at Whittlebury.
fatmarley
27-09-2014, 22:39
The little Audio Notes were my favourite speaker at Whittlebury.
You have good taste.
It's a push-pull configuration (so the chap from the demo room stated) firing into a rear cavity which Horning describe as a double asymmetric quarter wave loaded cabinet using individual driver loading which fires into a single hyperbolic shaped output pipe with port loading. The idea is for seamless integration of drive units through clever loading and blending. I had a similar system on my old Agathon Ultimates which use twin Beyma 12 inch bass units but these were too large and had too much inertia to keep up with the mid driver so bass overhang was an issue. Not so with the Euphrodites which has a better design using much lower inertia drivers into a more refined design. Possibly the best Horning speaker made?
Gotta be honest, I preferred the Agathons by a fair stretch, flawed or not.
You have good taste.
Anyone who likes Audio Note speakers has good taste.
I'm not a dyed in the wool audiophile, but it seems that Audio Note stand out as the brand making seriously good kit whatever your budget.
I didn't think they sounded as good as usual at this show.
I didn't think they sounded as good as usual at this show.
The little ones were in an echoey room, but was quite apparent they were good. Large ones were in a barn size room. Pointless.
I like Audio Note / Snell speakers quite a bit. But there are speakers out there I much prefer personally.
The barn room didn't work. Unanimous.
I've written quite an in depth report on my experience of this show (sorry, took quite a long time to write up my notes) - there are also some (very average) photos:
http://www.audioflat.co.uk/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=285
I made notes on my iPad as I went round and took a pic of each room with my phone. Unfortunately I think there were two rooms I somehow missed! - but the rest is there.
Good write -up Mark. Amazing how so many of the systems had problems with boomy bass. From the photographs the rooms look very large with high ceilings so quite surprising that so many had trouble.
I think there are two problems with the boomy bass issue. 1/ a lot of the rooms had false suspended ceilings and I don't think that helped. Many of the rooms also had quite regular proportions (though not the room with the smaller Usher speakers and that had massive room gain). 2/ the application of DSP to the active bass of my own speakers has meant that I've spent the last couple of months listening to a system that doesn't really have room boom problems (well it does, but very much less than is commonly found); so I'm now accustomed to not hearing the room gain and it stands out like a sore thumb. However, given the cost of a lot of the systems on show a lot more could have been done to suppress this problem.
It did cross my mind that your DSP bass might have spoiled you a bit ;) As you say some of the exhibitors might have been better looking in that area rather than carting along ten grands worth of power conditioners or whatever.
Great write-up Mark and a shame for TP that his talk was interrupted as often. Might have been better to have that talk as an advertised timed feature (ie doors closed for duration) and to have a time limit put on it. Disseminating information at an appropriate level to a very mixed group is invariably a difficult thing to pull off well. Unfortunately, I never got round to visiting the DCS room as I was interested in listening to those big Wilson speakers.
Thanks guys :). I'm glad I wrote notes as I went along though because it took long enough just to neaten them up.
My experience is that unless the door is manned, or locked, people will continue to come in pretty much irrespective of what else you do. To be fair to Teddy, the time of the lecture was clearly stated. What he should have done is totally ignore the incessant stream of latecomers (easier said than done I appreciate); but instead their arrival caused him to stop each time and collect himself before continuing.
Essentially the whole talk could be summarised by saying that a TeddyReg is really a bit of pre-reg filtering (which I, and no doubt quite a few others, already knew). I thought Teddy came over very well but it's not easy to pitch such a presentation that it is appropriate for all of those present.
Alan Sircom
06-10-2014, 08:54
We did consider using a Trinnov Amethyst to help counter room gain, but there's a couple of fairly unique problems with demonstrations and DSP; listener position and the ever-changing number of bodies in the room, which have a fairly big influence on the sub-200Hz performance. If you have a room full of fleshy, walking bass traps, the bass performance is very different to a room where there is just one or two people in the room.
The other relatively insurmountable problem with DSP is if you create a sweet-spot in the 'listening zone' of the room, you invariably do so at the expense of the sound outside that sweet spot, which often includes people at the door and people not sitting down. There are a lot of 'architrave audiophiles' at a show, who hang around at the door frame of a room and never venture further in (it's why some companies go for ticketed demonstrations), and using DSP can undermine that door frame experience, pushing away casual listeners in the process.
On a more pragmatic level, if you are an electronics company that doesn't sell DSP room EQ, using it is like saying "our gear isn't good enough". That's less of a problem if you are a loudspeaker maker, but there's still the potential for accusations of 'cheating' by visitors.
Instead, we went with passive room treatment, creating a mostly LEDR (live end, dead end) environment with a lot of GIK Acoustics traps... but in hindsight still not enough traps. We also went with positioning the loudspeakers firing across the room and too close together for minimum room gain at the expense of imagery. Although we took out a lot of irregularities in the room, there was still a lot of room gain at around 50Hz, and the air-conditioning ducts set off at about 35Hz at anything above conversation level (about 60dB in room). In retrospect, I would have tested the theory that you can never have enough bass traps, by packing a whole Luton van full of the things.
The larger rooms were noticeably worse this year than last because of a slight change to Whittlebury's room management. Last year, rooms were allowed to store their boxes in the 'en suite' store rooms, while the non-allocated rooms were locked chair storage. This year, they changed to having the non-allocated rooms as box stores, and the 'en suite' was a locked chair store. Many remarked last year that the rooms sounded better if they left the door to the box-filled 'en suite' storage room open, as it acted as a form of Helmholtz resonator. This year, that option was closed to us, and the room gain problems in the larger rooms were far worse across the board, IMO.
None of this should be viewed as making excuses for rooms, more an explanation of how much goes into trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, and we still don't get it right. However, what was worrying for me was that this year even fewer manufacturers and distributors were using room treatment in rooms that are notoriously poor in this respect. The larger ones are almost a lost cause unless you bring about a tonne and a half of traps and treatment, but the smaller ones are rock wall and concrete cubes, and can do with all the help you can bring. They are also small enough to treat relatively easily and cheaply; the dynamics of the room precludes great sound, but the potential improvement makes the difference between 'lousy' and 'fairly good'. Treatment also allows the system to show what it's capable of, instead of having to hide behind safe music. I do cop to playing an hour or so of safe music on Sunday morning, but I was badly hungover, and an Elvis and Nurophen cocktail was required.
Hi Alan, I hope you don't mind me answering your post in sections but you raise a number of equally valid, but different, points.
We did consider using a Trinnov Amethyst to help counter room gain, but there's a couple of fairly unique problems with demonstrations and DSP; listener position and the ever-changing number of bodies in the room, which have a fairly big influence on the sub-200Hz performance. If you have a room full of fleshy, walking bass traps, the bass performance is very different to a room where there is just one or two people in the room.
Yes, I accept all of that; but in this case the people numbers were pretty low compared to the room volume (air volume). I believe that you were upgraded at the last minute and there isn't much you could have done about that.
The other relatively insurmountable problem with DSP is if you create a sweet-spot in the 'listening zone' of the room, you invariably do so at the expense of the sound outside that sweet spot, which often includes people at the door and people not sitting down. There are a lot of 'architrave audiophiles' at a show, who hang around at the door frame of a room and never venture further in (it's why some companies go for ticketed demonstrations), and using DSP can undermine that door frame experience, pushing away casual listeners in the process.
Yes, but an element of that exists whatever you do - a sweet spot exists irrespective of the use of DSP.
On a more pragmatic level, if you are an electronics company that doesn't sell DSP room EQ, using it is like saying "our gear isn't good enough". That's less of a problem if you are a loudspeaker maker, but there's still the potential for accusations of 'cheating' by visitors.
I suppose. I hadn't considered the 'cheating' claim but I can certainly see that it isn't commercially easy to use components by manufacturers that aren't part of a companies portfolio.
Instead, we went with passive room treatment, creating a mostly LEDR (live end, dead end) environment with a lot of GIK Acoustics traps... but in hindsight still not enough traps. We also went with positioning the loudspeakers firing across the room and too close together for minimum room gain at the expense of imagery. Although we took out a lot of irregularities in the room, there was still a lot of room gain at around 50Hz, and the air-conditioning ducts set off at about 35Hz at anything above conversation level (about 60dB in room). In retrospect, I would have tested the theory that you can never have enough bass traps, by packing a whole Luton van full of the things.
As you say, there was a lot of 50Hz gain and passive room treatment has to be massive to do much at these frequencies. Personally, I have used DSP to address a 50Hz room mode and it was very effective. True it will be not be universally effective in every part of the room but then nor will any other solution.
The larger rooms were noticeably worse this year than last because of a slight change to Whittlebury's room management. Last year, rooms were allowed to store their boxes in the 'en suite' store rooms, while the non-allocated rooms were locked chair storage. This year, they changed to having the non-allocated rooms as box stores, and the 'en suite' was a locked chair store. Many remarked last year that the rooms sounded better if they left the door to the box-filled 'en suite' storage room open, as it acted as a form of Helmholtz resonator. This year, that option was closed to us, and the room gain problems in the larger rooms were far worse across the board, IMO.
As you say, most rooms suffered from this problem - some even more than you.
However, what was worrying for me was that this year even fewer manufacturers and distributors were using room treatment in rooms that are notoriously poor in this respect. The larger ones are almost a lost cause unless you bring about a tonne and a half of traps and treatment, but the smaller ones are rock wall and concrete cubes, and can do with all the help you can bring.
I quite agree.
Alan Sircom
06-10-2014, 12:45
Hi Alan, I hope you don't mind me answering your post in sections but you raise a number of equally valid, but different, points.
No problems at all. It's all in the proper spirit anyway!
Yes, I accept all of that; but in this case the people numbers were pretty low compared to the room volume (air volume). I believe that you were upgraded at the last minute and there isn't much you could have done about that.
Agreed, and yes. Typically, the room had on average about eight bodies in there, three of them from the magazine, and at least seven at any one time had a pulse. At its best, we had about 20, at its worst we outnumbered the public four to one, and there were only three of us in the room!
Yes, but an element of that exists whatever you do - a sweet spot exists irrespective of the use of DSP.
Yes, but the peculiar part is that the more work DSP has to do inside that sweet spot, generally the worse it sounds outside. If you get a lot of phase cancellation at the door, you end up losing a lot of people who might otherwise enter the room.
I suppose. I hadn't considered the 'cheating' claim but I can certainly see that it isn't commercially easy to use components by manufacturers that aren't part of a companies portfolio.
The 'cheating' accusation is an odd one, I have to say. It completely blind-sided me when I heard it with regard to passive room treatment. I was expecting the usual 'divorce maker' and 'wife unacceptance factor' quips, but not "it's cheating". Apparently, it's a fairly regular grumble at shows, and why we don't focus on room treatment anywhere near as much as I'd like in print or online.
As you say, there was a lot of 50Hz gain and passive room treatment has to be massive to do much at these frequencies. Personally, I have used DSP to address a 50Hz room mode and it was very effective. True it will be not be universally effective in every part of the room but then nor will any other solution.
Agreed, but the last part is the problem. In a domestic environment, you are reasonably confident of the scope of DSP, in terms of a zone of width, depth and height where the listener is likely to sit. You know that the listener is likely to be in a seated position during most of the listening session. That really doesn't happen in a show: the attendees who walk through the door typically spend 30 seconds or so standing up clutching one of the middle chairs along the back row. If they like what they hear at that point, they usually either sit in one of the centre chairs, or walk up to the system, have a nose around, then sit toward the middle of the front row. If you don't nail the sound behind that back row at standing head height, they typically shake their head and leave. So, in terms of a DSP sound field, you need to create a reliable, good sounding zone across a fairly large space, especially in terms of listener height. That is difficult, IMO, and if you get that kind of outer regions of the DSP EQ field phasiness, you end up doing more harm than good to the cause.
The other plan for this was originally to show the effect of passive and active room treatment, by physically moving room treatment into and out of the room, and turning DSP on and off with something like the Trinnov or a Lyngdorf. That all went a bit pear-shaped when we got bumped up to a room the size of Norway with an RT60 of about a month. It went a lot more pear-shaped when I discovered we were sharing a room with a headphone demonstration and couldn't plan timed demonstrations as a result.
As you say, most rooms suffered from this problem - some even more than you.
Thanks. I tried as best as possible with that room, but as we both said, the cure here is a lot more treatment, and probably a lot more DSP too, despite the potential issues it might cause on room entry.
We tried to calm down room reflections and a 40-50Hz bass boom issue by snaffling all the 1ft thick foam sound deadening panels that the hotel staff could muster (yes...they actually had a load in their stores!). What we found was that a happy medium was in reality hard to achieve because of the room dimensions. The boom could be tamed a bit but placing multiple panels on side walls to limit the effect of first point reflections (hence improve imaging and reduce phase distortion) plus some at the back behind the listeners just killed the room dymamics and made the room sound like an anechoic chamber.
The only happy medium we could muster was to leave one large panel behind the listeners (most didn't even realise it was there) and one on a side wall under a white sheet (ditto).
The reality was that without room measurement and targeted treatment (in particlular the ceilings) room treatment was pretty much hit and miss. Things could be improved (and were) but to do the job properly and create an optimally treated listening environment is not something that any of the really problematical rooms (some were much worse than others) could realistically achieve with an evening's set-up.
This was a point accepted by most visitors I think. We did receive some encouraging comments on the clean imaging we managed which was partly down to some targeted minimal treatment, but at the end of the day, hotel rooms are not the easiest of things to treat for all the points so far raised.
The DCS room had the best imagery of the show (but then it did have nearly 100K of gear in it) by some margin and they were using quite a lot of passive room treatment including some between the speakers. However, even then they were suffering pretty obvious room issues at lower frequencies.
I would also say that, at very much lower cost, Paul did a jolly good job of taming his room and the Rhapsody speakers did sound much more focussed than many.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.