View Full Version : Replacing the Technics tonearm - Origin Live Silver MK3A or Audio Note Arm 1?
Hi all,
I have recently joined the forum to seek advice on how best to modify my 1210 MK2.
I will shortly be adding Isonoe footers and replacing the stock rubber mat with an Achromat 1200.
I also want to replace the arm. I would like, if possible, to stick with MM cartridges so this rules out the Jelco 750 which would appear to be better suited to MC cartridges. If any one has had positive experiences with the Jelco + MM carts please feel free to chime in.
I have narrowed it down to either The Origin Live Silver MK3A or The Audio Note Arm 1. Both are around the same price and from the online research I've done both seem highly regarded.
For a MM cart I would like to keep my spend below £300. The top two contenders for me at the moment are the Ortofon 2M bronze and the Goldring 1042, probably 2M Bronze with the OL Silver arm or the 1042 with AN Arm 1. It would appear the well regarded AN MM carts (which are over my £300 budget) are based on the Goldring 1042 so I suspect good synergy with the AN arm and the Ortofon 2M range are apparently a good match for Rega type arms such as the OL Silver.
What are the thoughts of the Technics enthusiasts on here? Which combination would offer the best sound in your opinion?
I want to improve on the Technics dark, rather shut in character. I want a wider sound-stage, greater detail and a more musical, airy, high fidelity performance.
I look forward to your opinions on what you feel would be the best combination.
Thanks
Mark
Thanks for the quick reply. Which of the above mentioned MM carts would you recommend?
Hi all,
If any one has had positive experiences with the Jelco + MM carts please feel free to chime in.
The Denon DL110 (a high output MC that connects to the MM input on the phono stage) and my Jelco seemed happy enough together.
Clive197
10-08-2014, 23:35
Origin Live silver3A. I hereby declare I'm biased as I've used one on my SL1210M5G for the last 13 months with a Ortofon Cadenza Bronze. I also tried it out with the Ortofon 2M Black which also worked very well in the arm. The MC Quintet are getting excellent reviews. If your not keen on Ortofon try some models from Rega, Goldring or Nagaoka.
Clive
Spectral Morn
10-08-2014, 23:49
Both tonearms listed are based on Rega arms but my money would be on the Origin Live. I have used one on a Technics and it works well.
Re cartridges I would seek out a Benz Micro Gold, which is a high output MC design, which is 5 mv vs the Goldrings 6.5mv output. With a good solidstate phonostage there won't be any problem. However a valve phonostage or valve integrated with a built in phonostage much might then depend on speaker to amp synergy - re ability to drive properly - slightly more so than with a solidstate design.
That cart and Origin Live combination works very well with a lovely open detailed sound but all the qualities you want and at a similar price.
At more money the Jelco 750 tonearm and Denon DL103 cart works very well.
Regards Neil
This is great. Lots of differing opinions. Just what I was looking for. Keep em coming. The best tonearm and MM cart match for the Technics under £1100?
phonomac
11-08-2014, 07:17
Hello Mark,
PM sent.
regards
Angus
I want to improve on the Technics dark, rather shut in character. I want a wider sound-stage, greater detail and a more musical, airy, high fidelity performance.
Mine is not really a differing opinion in that I have no doubt there are better arms out there for your Technics though not sure what is best. However, I got essentially the same end result in a different way.:)
About 4 years ago when I was researching exactly the same question, I found it very difficult/impossible to decide which arm to go with so I shelved my arm decision for a bit, made a left field choice at the time and bought a Mike New bearing first as I knew as soon as I looked at its design that I'd be getting one eventually. Though it used the bulk of my budget, I had enough left to rewire my 1210 arm myself (with Silver van den Hul 150S) and add a KAB damper. Other mods followed and I'm sure more will come. My point is however, that the overall result from the initial bearing and arm changes was the elimination of that slightly dark, closed in two dimensional soundstage and a fantastic sounding TT. My thinking at the time was that whatever arm I later added would always benefit from the bearing. It's just that I'm quite happy with what I have and I've not gotten around to that yet so I'm always looking at threads such as this to see what people choose by way of different arms. :scratch: Incidentally, I like MMs myself and the the mid weight Techy arm, particularly with KAB damping, continues to suit me fine even with higher compliance items.:D
ChrisKemp
11-08-2014, 08:30
Effective mass of Jelco 750D is about 13g (without headshell). Buy a headshell with the right weight and it will fit perfectly with alot of different MM or MC.
Effective mass of the Origin Live Silver mk3 is 12g.
I´m, right now, looking at IsoKinetik Silver Melody SM750. A Jelco 750D with improvements done by IsoKinetik. Many uses the great 750D as base model or Jelco is a OEM supplyer of different companies: Ortofon, Koetsu, JR Trans Rotor and many more.
I have a Cardas KAB rewired arm with the KAB Fluid Damper. That is a very good option IMO. You could be better off with KAB mods and to use the money on Mike New Bearing!
For me it is easier to by a tonearm with headshell. Then I can buy a superlight headshell and use a higher compliance cartridge. Buy a heavy headshell and I can use a cartridge with lower compliance. Much more flexible IMO:)
http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/analogue-lp-s/908-isokinetik-silver-melody-tonearm.html
I will shortly be adding Isonoe footers and replacing the stock rubber mat with an Achromat 1200.
I want to improve on the Technics dark, rather shut in character. I want a wider sound-stage, greater detail and a more musical, airy, high fidelity performance.
Isonoes, Acromat, and external PSU. Those three things will get rid of the darkness and open things up in a rather breathtaking manner.
Of the three, the PSU is most important, as it gets the vibrating, humming chunk of iron and copper out of the chassis, shaking everything, and away from your cartridge. The increase in clarity is, in a word, astonishing.
The Isonoes and Acromat simply remove most of the darkness.
Once those three items are done the table sounds much different than stock. (Significantly better) Only then look into another arm.
Thank you to all for taking the time to respond – some interesting food for thought.
I am starting to lean towards the OL silver. It seems to be very well regarded and is a better cosmetic match to the 1210 imo. Also, I am not far from their premises and I can have them install it utilising one of their non-metal armboards.
I'm starting consider a high output MC instead of a MM. I think there is more chance of an MC widening the soundstage and offering the improved detail and finesse I am looking for. I was told in the past that the only MC's worth considering are low output ones. However, after some online research last night (prompted by the Benz Micro HO MC recommendation) and many speak highly of a high output MC into a MM stage. I have read online that the Dynavector 10X5 is a good match for the OL arm. It seems to be universally well regarded for its price-performance. What are your thoughts?
Dalek Supreme, thanks for the Benz Micro Gold high output MC tip. However, I did a quick google search last night and it would appear to be a low output MC and the Micro Silver is the high output version or have I got something wrong here?
For those recommending the bearing upgrade as an early stage upgrade essential. I am not convinced. However, I could be wrong. Similarly, I am not convinced the PS upgrade is more important than the arm upgrade. Something to consider further down the line perhaps. I have a limited budget and to be honest I am not expecting or wanting 'word class' analogue playback just something that is going to allow me to enjoy listening to my records more than I do at the moment. I have got to allocate funds where I believe the grater performance increase will be achieved. I think it is interesting that the Funk Firm do not talk about the need for an external power supply with their 'expensive' Technics mods, concentrating instead on the tonearm and the platter. Also, I have read a number of reports online which have stated the arm upgrade produced a much greater improvement than the external power supply. This review is one example:
http://hifipig.com/origin-live-modified-technics-1210-turntable/
To be fair there are others that report greater improvements are achieved by externalising the power supply but they would seem to be in the minority.
Further thoughts, feedback and advice would be greatly appreciated. I would particularly welcome feedback from anyone who has experience of the Dynavector DV10X5 with OL arms or of the DV10X5 cart in general.
Thanks
Mark
Audio Al
11-08-2014, 18:05
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?33662-Minty-Origin-Live-Conqueror-Mk-2-Tonearm
:eyebrows::D
IMHO, the biggest upgrade is the arm.
Don't discount the Audiomods arm either. There is a Technics model that just drops in.
That OL arm that Allen linked to is quite a good deal though!
Spectral Morn
11-08-2014, 22:39
Thank you to all for taking the time to respond – some interesting food for thought.
I am starting to lean towards the OL silver. It seems to be very well regarded and is a better cosmetic match to the 1210 imo. Also, I am not far from their premises and I can have them install it utilising one of their non-metal armboards.
I'm starting consider a high output MC instead of a MM. I think there is more chance of an MC widening the soundstage and offering the improved detail and finesse I am looking for. I was told in the past that the only MC's worth considering are low output ones. However, after some online research last night (prompted by the Benz Micro HO MC recommendation) and many speak highly of a high output MC into a MM stage. I have read online that the Dynavector 10X5 is a good match for the OL arm. It seems to be universally well regarded for its price-performance. What are your thoughts?
Dalek Supreme, thanks for the Benz Micro Gold high output MC tip. However, I did a quick google search last night and it would appear to be a low output MC and the Micro Silver is the high output version or have I got something wrong here?
For those recommending the bearing upgrade as an early stage upgrade essential. I am not convinced. However, I could be wrong. Similarly, I am not convinced the PS upgrade is more important than the arm upgrade. Something to consider further down the line perhaps. I have a limited budget and to be honest I am not expecting or wanting 'word class' analogue playback just something that is going to allow me to enjoy listening to my records more than I do at the moment. I have got to allocate funds where I believe the grater performance increase will be achieved. I think it is interesting that the Funk Firm do not talk about the need for an external power supply with their 'expensive' Technics mods, concentrating instead on the tonearm and the platter. Also, I have read a number of reports online which have stated the arm upgrade produced a much greater improvement than the external power supply. This review is one example:
http://hifipig.com/origin-live-modified-technics-1210-turntable/
To be fair there are others that report greater improvements are achieved by externalising the power supply but they would seem to be in the minority.
Further thoughts, feedback and advice would be greatly appreciated. I would particularly welcome feedback from anyone who has experience of the Dynavector DV10X5 with OL arms or of the DV10X5 cart in general.
Thanks
Mark
Mark
You are right - doh. I have both here at the minute and its a Silver on the arm at the minute the Gold is in its box. Sorry that's what comes of posting when ones head is up ones butt. Not been feeling great last few days, feel better today though.
Regards Neil
For those recommending the bearing upgrade as an early stage upgrade essential. I am not convinced. However, I could be wrong.
I for one didn't say it was an essential first step, merely that I had a mindset to replace the arm, a limited budget and with what could have been a brain fade, made an unconventional choice (in terms of order purchased). I'm simply relating that that a different order worked out amazingly well for me. After all, the original arm already has many fine attributes and the rewire and damper improve it hugely to a point that it is a very good arm indeed. Sure there are better arms but the bearing plus a very good arm for the price of a top arm and a standard bearing, was simply an option I was presenting.:)
Similarly, I am not convinced the PS upgrade is more important than the arm upgrade. Something to consider further down the line perhaps. I have a limited budget and to be honest I am not expecting or wanting 'word class' analogue playback just something that is going to allow me to enjoy listening to my records more than I do at the moment. I have got to allocate funds where I believe the grater performance increase will be achieved.
Bold mine.
Considering that you can DIY the PSU upgrade for about £40 it is the biggest bang-for the-buck mod out there.
I'm not discounting the benefits of swapping out the arm - heck, I just mounted a $2500 arm on mine... But I have been down this path, and trust me, the PSU is the 2nd biggest mod you can do. (In order, Arm, PSU, with Isonoes/Acromat are tied for third)
And anyway, why on earth would you want to spend big money on a new arm and cartridge if your table is (quite literally) vibrating?
ChrisKemp
12-08-2014, 10:02
Same here. I have asked for advise while upgrading my M5G and read alot on other forums, too. First upgrade should be a new PSU (the one from MCRU is great and with a fine price). It made a significant improvement. Then the Isonoe feet and Achromat. Rather then buy a new expensive arm, I bought a rewired arm from KAB and Fluid Damper. Then came the Mike New bearing and everything fell in place. I even changed out the Achromat for the much better Oyaide MJ-12 platter.
Now when everything is pretty top notch, I'm considering a new arm.
The OL arms I've seen have been badly finished bodges of the RB series. maybe the ones I saw were sub-standard, but adding faults in terms of catastrophic arm resonances to add 'excitement' to the sound isn't the way to go in my personal opinion. yes, I know that all tonearms using what we knew as the 'SME' headshell format can suffer breakup modes at lower midrange frequencies, but far eastern users have sort-of got over it with careful choice of headshell and cartridge and enough people here have great experiences of this arm with Shuggie collar on an ebony board with the techie.
Apologies for possibly rocking the boat, but a goodly few on here have followed the techie upgrade path over several years and have readily shared what seems to work and what doesn't. 'High Fidelity' on vinyl isn't always about a bright and 'airy' sound either, as many of the master-copies I repeatedly heard were more multi-mono than a homogenous spacious whole. It's different in the digital age, as recordings made like this in the 70's don't always sound too good.
I do wish you luck on your journey. Isonoes are expensive and not every user has liked them. Gromit, who's a musician, found they did things to the bass he didn't find 'natural,' but I can't remember the old thread here - I think it was about the VA feet.
Good luck though, but I hope you don't start pouring money without very careful research first :)
rubber duck
12-08-2014, 11:30
Well, someone had to say this and I agree with David. Simply throwing money at a problem is no guarantee of a solution. Personally I go against the grain here in terms of the arm but am not the only one who thinks the arm is pretty decent. Certainly good enough for the Funk arm tube mod. But even without this it is capable of fine results and I would be loathe to give up the flexibility of the adjustable VTA. I would consider an arm rewire as a starting point, especially if you can solder. My 1210 has a single unshielded, unbroken run of wire from cart to phono stage. Even with a full-bodied Shure M97xE (my current fave cart) into a valve phono stage (Croft 25 Basic which is quite special), the sound is rich yet open, clean and detailed - not just my opinion mind you. There may be a certain satisfaction from spending money and buying a new arm, etc and this may well work, but like David, all I'm saying is that this isn't necessary nor a guarantee.
Trust me, the Funk tube and wiring upgrade transforms the arm into something very special.
I'm just not sure that they are readily available at the moment.
Hi Clive,
You would seem to be quite happy with the OL Silver arm. Did you notice a significant improvement over the stock arm on the 1210 m5g which I understand is more or less the equivalent of a re-wired 1210 mk2 arm? Have you done the power supply mod? What are your thoughts on this upgrade?
Re-wiring the arm is a lot of faff for me as I do not solder. I am not a hobbyist audio equipment modifier, just someone looking to improve the performance of the Technics. Its the same with externalising the existing power supply. I have never done anything like that before. Also, I would prefer to keep the table as one piece. My feeling is the tonearm change is where the greater improvements are to be had, then cartridge, then phono stage, then matt and feet. Like I said earlier, I am not looking to achieve world class analogue playback just something that will allow me to enjoy my records more than I do at the moment.
I have in the past owned a Marantz turntable which was based on a Clearaudio Emotion. It was in many ways better than the Technics - more airy, detailed, sweeter sounding etc but it involved a manual belt change which was a complete faff. Also, it did not have the drive or timing of the Technics which are important qualities for me.
The other option I have got is to scrap my plan to mod the Technics altogether and just go for a decent Hi-Fi turntable such as the Clearaudio Performance (which has an electronic speed change), Rega RP8 or Origin Live Aurora.
However, I would prefer to keep the Technics if I can improve its performance in a cost effective fashion.
Wat are peoples thoughts on the Dynavector DV10X5 cart and its suitability for a modified Technics?
Clive197
12-08-2014, 23:18
Hi Clive,
You would seem to be quite happy with the OL Silver arm. Did you notice a significant improvement over the stock arm on the 1210 m5g which I understand is more or less the equivalent of a re-wired 1210 mk2 arm? Have you done the power supply mod? What are your thoughts on this upgrade?
Hi Mark
The arm upgrade IMHO was a no brainer. While a number of people seem to like to knock Rega arms and I'm not going into that discussion, I should point out that the OL Silver only uses the lift/lower mech from a Rega arm with everything else designed and built by OL, so implying that the Silver is a reworked Rega is slightly off the mark.
Interestingly I've had no problems with the power supply and my Cadenza Bronze. I tried moving the arm/cartridge combo backward and forward over the width of the turntable with the volume on my amp turned right up with no discernible difference to background noise. This of course may be down to the shielding on my cartridge. With a record playing I've not experienced any differences from beginning to end of record. This of course could be down to my hearing but I can certainly tell the impact of the matt and Isonoes. In my set-up it would be difficult to place a seperate supply, so simply I can't be asked. As for the Mike New bearing I can certainly vouch for its build quality which make the stock bearing look like a piece from a Machano Kit but as yet I've resisted the urge to dismantle my Techie with the exception of changing arms and cutting out a bigger hole in the base. To my ears it sounds great with the upgrades I have made.
Clive
I have in the past owned a Marantz turntable which was based on a Clearaudio Emotion. It was in many ways better than the Technics - more airy, detailed, sweeter sounding etc but it involved a manual belt change which was a complete faff. Also, it did not have the drive or timing of the Technics which are important qualities for me.
I guess that would be the Marantz TT15. I have also had one of these and I have to say I also hated the faffing around changing the bobbin to put on a 45 rpm record. The concept with that Marantz is that they focused on absolute simplicity and thereby produced a good turntable for a modest price. The bearing was not magnetic, but if you gave the platter a good spin you could go and get married, and when you came back it still would not have stopped! Anyway I had one of those and upgraded to a SL1210 and having done 'all the mods' the 1210 is simply in another league. Here is a list in approximate order of merit:
1. Isonoe feet;
2. Power supply;
3. Tonearm;
4. My DIY platter damping upgrade;
5. Servicing; (internal clean, relube the bearing, Caig's Deoxit on all connections)
6. Mat and Clamp;
7. Headshell & headshell wiring;
8. Tonearm wiring;
9. Bearing;
10. Pitch Control.
The first five were all immediately noticeable differences. There are three points I would like to make. First is to emphasise that ultimately you will end up with a truly top class deck. Second, you can do these one at time - whats the rush? the standard 1200/1210 is pretty decent straight out. Third, what is significant in one context can be useless in another. Examples:
If you have a sound platform then my No.1 (Isonoe Feet) would be your number 10.
If you have an upmarket cartridge then the change of tonearm would be even more significant.
If your bearing is old and worn then a new bearing would be up the list.
As for the Technics being cost effective; my opinion is that it is cost effective. Not only in absolute terms of £$ but also in that the end result will be hard to beat. I have friends who simply cannot believe the bass I get from my system (my amp has no tone controls) and the answer is in part to the direct drive heart of the TT. Having said all of this: if you are not prepared to get your hands dirty then the mods will cost more.
Hope this helps.
Thanks for all the replies and opinions. I am not completely ruling out the separate power supply but it would have to be a paid for unit as I do not have the DIY skills nor can I solder. The mains cables r us PS would appear to be the best value solution.
I get the impression the Jelco 750 tonearm is the popular arm change option for the Technics on this forum. I'm not interested in importing a re-wired standard arm from KAB USA, paying import duties, and then paying someone to install it. I may as well just get a superior arm. A great many people believe this is the major weak point of the Technics especially in its bog standard MK2 guise. If I were to go for the Jelco/Denon DL-103 combo which a lot of people seem to favour, what would be a cost effective SUT solution?
What are peoples opinions of the Dynavector DV10X5 cartridge?
Thanks
Mark
Audio Al
13-08-2014, 10:14
You could use a pre amp MM / MC and switch between the two when required , something like this
http://www.sevenoakssoundandvision.co.uk/p/pro-ject-phono-box-sphono-pre-amp-mm-mc
Or a integrated amp , some have MM / MC options
I thought that to get the best out of an MC you need a proper step up? This relatively cheap switching phono stage would be a compromise would it not. My experience with vinyl up to this point tells me the phono stage is a critical element in the chain.
ChrisKemp
13-08-2014, 10:50
Thanks for all the replies and opinions. I am not completely ruling out the separate power supply but it would have to be a paid for unit as I do not have the DIY skills nor can I solder. The mains cables r us PS would appear to be the best value solution.
I get the impression the Jelco 750 tonearm is the popular arm change option for the Technics on this forum. I'm not interested in importing a re-wired standard arm from KAB USA, paying import duties, and then paying someone to install it. I may as well just get a superior arm. A great many people believe this is the major weak point of the Technics especially in its bog standard MK2 guise. If I were to go for the Jelco/Denon DL-103 combo which a lot of people seem to favour, what would be a cost effective SUT solution?
What are peoples opinions of the Dynavector DV10X5 cartridge?
Thanks
Mark
I have just ordered from Mains Cables R Us:
IsoKinetik Silver Melody SM750 tonearm.
Audio Al
13-08-2014, 11:28
I thought that to get the best out of an MC you need a proper step up? This relatively cheap switching phono stage would be a compromise would it not. My experience with vinyl up to this point tells me the phono stage is a critical element in the chain.
A lot depends on your budget ,
I have a Ortofon St-80se sut , I run this with a Shelter 5000 cartridge and sometimes a Denon 304
The 103 is a relatively cheap cartridge and yes it will benefit with a sut , the sut will be considerably dearer for a decent quality unit
Hi Chris,
That looks like a very attractive arm. I've just read the Hi-Fi choice review and they describe it as a lower mid-mass arm. It apparently has an effective mass of 13.5g with the standard headshell. Is this the same mass as the bog standard Jelco 750 or has it been changed so as to better match a wider range of cartridges? This would seem to make commercial sense and open the arm up to a wider range of buyers, those who dont have low compliance MC's like the DL103. Anyone know if this is the case?
ChrisKemp
13-08-2014, 11:43
Maybe David at MCRs knows this. With this arm I can buy a light headshell (IsoKinetik Rosewood Magnesium or Oyaide) or one of the more heavy headshells. I will live with my DL-103R, but in the future I want a London Decca Super Gold. I think this arm gives great SQ and flexibility. And it looks fantastic, too.
My feeling is the tonearm change is where the greater improvements are to be had, then cartridge, then phono stage, then matt and feet.
Cartridge will always be the biggest single improvement or change.
Like I said earlier, I am not looking to achieve world class analogue playback just something that will allow me to enjoy my records more than I do at the moment.
The SL-1200 can be rocketed into world-class quite easily.
It was in many ways better than the Technics - more airy, detailed, sweeter sounding ... Also, it did not have the drive or timing of the Technics which are important qualities for me.
You have the Isonoes and Acromat on the way... That will do quite a bit to retrieve the detail and air you are wanting. The rest returns once the transformer is no longer sitting in the turntable.
However, I would prefer to keep the Technics if I can improve its performance in a cost effective fashion.
PSU.
PSU.
PSU.
If you want cost-effective, the PSU is going to be the best bang-for-buck. I've been down this road recently, and DIY or not, the PSU is that big of a change.
Wat are peoples thoughts on the Dynavector DV10X5 cart and its suitability for a modified Technics?
Fantastic cartridge! Wonderful choice. :)
I'm starting to consider the IsoKinetik Silver Melody SM750 tonearm, an ebony wood armboard and a Dynavector DV10X5?
& possibly Mains Cables R US regulalated linear power supply @ £225.
The Achromat 1200 + Isonoes have already decided upon.
What are your thoughts on the SM750 tonearm + DV10X5 combination?
ChrisKemp
13-08-2014, 13:58
I think the SM750 must be good with any cartridge. Get the right headshell and I´m sure you can use anything from London Decca to Koetsu or a 2M Black.
A hifi person I´ve been in contact with sold his silver cable upgraded Rega RB1000 arm and bought the IsoKinetik Silver Melody SM750 after he heard it. And Hifi Choice wrote that this tonearm easily compares to tonearm over twice the price of the SM750. That is good enough for me and that is why I bought one:)
Does the IsoKinetik Silver Melody SM750 still require the additional mounting collar or has this been rectified with the new design? What would be a cost effective tonearm cable for this arm without compromising sonics? I have a feeling the Isokinetic cable will be very expensive, pushing the arm outside of my budget.
ChrisKemp
13-08-2014, 14:08
I also bought the custom collar from David/ MCRs. I asked David about it, and the collar is so cheap that it was a no brainer for me. I did not go for the Isokinetik silver tonearm wire. I might in the future. I bought the Jelco JAC-502 cable, that is on sale now. I think that is a good cable that has gotten great reviews. I almost bought the ebony armbord. I think it is too expensive for my budget now and I cannot find any reviews that justifies the price difference of a aluminim board. I got the Jelco armboard that is adjustable to get the VTA right. This arm board pluss the custom collar is cheaper than the ebony arm board alone. Others might differ, but that was my choice:)
In the future I might go for the ebony arm board.
Send an email to David. He'll be happy to answer all your questions and guide you within your budget.
I've had a re-think on all this. Up until earlier today I was under the impression that the Jelco was relatively high effective mass and woud only work well with certain carts. However, after reading the Hi-Fi choice review on the Isokinetic Silver version of the arm earlier today I discovered it is actually a low mid-mass arm of 13.5g with the standard headshell (apparently the standard Jelco 750 has an identical effective mass). This, coupled with the dampening ability of the arm suggests it should be suitable with a wide range of carts.
The majority on here are stressing the importance of externalising the power supply. I was always certain it would improve performance it was just the degree of improvement I was unsure about.
My thinking now is go for the standard Jelco which can be had brand new right now for £380 and buy the Mains Cables R US regulated linear power supply @ £225. Combined this is less than the OL Silver, AN Arm One and Isokinetic Silver arms on their own. Given the Jelcos renowned synergy with the Technics, this would seem a sensible allocation of funds.
+
Jelco JAC-502 tonearm cable
Isonoe Feet
Achromat 1200
Ebony hardwood armboard
Dynavector DV10X5 HO MC
& then further down the line a decent valve phono stage such as the Pure Sound, Croft, EAR or Hayden Boardman 33.3. How does this sound as a proposed upgrade plan?
I've had a re-think on all this. Up until earlier today I was under the impression that the Jelco was relatively high effective mass and woud only work well with certain carts. However, after reading the Hi-Fi choice review on the Isokinetic Silver version of the arm earlier today I discovered it is actually a low mid-mass arm of 13.5g with the standard headshell (apparently the standard Jelco 750 has an identical effective mass). This, coupled with the dampening ability of the arm suggests it should be suitable with a wide range of carts.
The majority on here are stressing the importance of externalising the power supply. I was always certain it would improve performance it was just the degree of improvement I was unsure about.
My thinking now is go for the standard Jelco which can be had brand new right now for £380 and buy the Mains Cables R US regulated linear power supply @ £225. Combined this is less than the OL Silver, AN Arm One and Isokinetic Silver arms on their own. Given the Jelcos renowned synergy with the Technics, this would seem a sensible allocation of funds.
+
Jelco JAC-502 tonearm cable
Isonoe Feet
Achromat 1200
Ebony hardwood armboard
Dynavector DV10X5 HO MC
& then further down the line a decent valve phono stage such as the Pure Sound, Croft, EAR or Hayden Boardman 33.3. How does this sound as a proposed upgrade plan?
Hi mate, sounds like you've come to a conclusion, so I don't mean to cause confusion...but I used to own a Techie, with external PSU, isonoe feet etc.. And wanted to upgrade the arm and bought the Jelco 750D, it did not get on with either my 1042 or MM3 carts, at all!
I later upgraded the arm for the OL Encounter mk3c which worked much better imo and I was very happy with the arm. I later gave up on the Techie upgrade path and bought an OL resolution mk2 and have not looked back since. I used this now with the Encounter arm. OL still sell obsolete stock of the Resolution on fleabay and it is worth having a look at.
I've always found Mark Baker very helpful and honest in his advice when I called him up
Just sharing my experiences and hope you find it helpful.
Regards
Chivas
Thanks Chivas,
Your opinion and thoughts are very welcome.
When you had the Technics did you notice a significant improvement with the external PSU?
I haven't completely ruled out an OL arm. I may even go a step down from the Silver to the Onyx. There is certainly some positive feedback on OL arms on this thread from another forum:
http://www.hifiwigwam.com/showthread.php?80022-Origin-live-tonearms-quot-How-Good-quot
I cannot really comment on the effect of the PSU since I bought my Techie 2nd hand with an external Timestep PSU, and have never compared it to a standard deck with the internal PSU in my system. I have been told that moving iron carts like the MM3 is a big no-no with the std techie due to hum issues, which I never experienced with the external psu. The techie was a great deck and has many virtues which are well documented, but to me it was always a bit of a noisy deck and I could never really get that 3D sound projecting from a pitch black background. Perhaps this is something that the Mike New bearing and platter would've achieved, but I just couldn't justify sinking that amount of money on a Techie. Others here have gone the whole nine yards and achieved audio nirvana, it was just a path I chose not to follow, and given my experiences with OL, the Encounter arm and Mark Baker, decided to give the Resolution a go when it came up at the right price, and like I said I've never looked back, to me it plays music just the way I like it, it sounds just right and I've never had the inclination to fettle with it or felt short changed. There is an OL aurora with one of the cheaper OL arms on sale on this forum and/or the Wam, and I know what I would've gone for given the choice between that and a fully fettled techie or upgrading one in your case. I have no doubt that that will not be the most popular choice on this forum, but from my experience that is what I would've gone for, without a doubt. Either way, it is an exciting journey and the most important part is to enjoy it. You cannot go that much wrong.
If I were you, I'd give Mark Baker a call and have a chat with him, you've got nothing to lose, he is very familiar with the Techie and I have always experienced him as very honest and straight forward. He has even turned me away from more expensive products in his his range in the past because he felt that I could spend my money better elsewhere.
Chivas
The MCRU PSU does a good job. On it's own, it's not a massive upgrade, but it does make a difference to the sound quality. I was happy when I fitted mine.
If I were to do the upgrades again, I would put more into the arm/cartridge to start with and look at externalising the PSU. I upgraded to an Audio Origami RB251, which was good, but not in the same class as my FX1200.
I am really happy with my SL1200 now, as it sounds superb. This is mostly the arm making the big difference. I fitted an SAE 1000LT, a 2M Black and an AT150MLX and they all sound great.
Other upgrades I have are:
Mike New Bearing
Isonoes
Achromat/Resomat on a Funk Firm Platter.
LDA/MCRU PSU
Strobe disabled
Pitch slider disabled
FX1200
I would probably fit the Isonoe and Achromat feet, followed by the arm, as not all cartridges are affected to the same extent by the PSU. If you can remove the PSU to an external box, you probably get 85% of the upgrade for about £20 to £30. Then when funds allow, look at the other areas.
PS. Come to think of it, why not give OL's 30 day trial a go, if it doesn't do it for you, send it back, no quibble. If you invest in an arm, it is always transferrable to your next deck ( if you like the arm and decide to move on from the Techie, like I did), whereas if you spend the money on Techie specifics like a bearing or PSU, you cannot really carry the investment forward to the next step of your journey, can you?
ChrisKemp
14-08-2014, 23:56
The Music Maker III is not a cartridge for a Jelco 750. So if that was'nt a good match I'm not surprised. The Jelco is a good arm and so is the OL.
My biggest upgrades on my Techy is the MCU PSU and the MN bearing. No noise. Pitch black. These two upgrades changes the sound signature of the turntable to another level IMO. I also had great results with rewireing the arm and Fluid Damper.
For me it's better to have the flexibility to change headshells with different weights for different cartridges. That's why I'll buy the IsoKinetik SM750.
phonomac
15-08-2014, 07:10
As noted in another thread about tone arm upgrades I have an Origin Live Dual Pivot Encounter Mk3 available for £675 + postage - same price as a Silver.
I must get it listed for sale.
regards
Angus
Spectral Morn
15-08-2014, 07:22
I have a 750D and its a good arm within a range of carts but its not happy with others. So if you go for a Denon 103 with suitable headshell its great and is a very synergistic match with the Technics but outside that I think its more problematic.
I would also not go with the Jelco arm cable its opaque and very closed in.
The PSU mentioned is a good option as would a Paul Hynes SR2
Regards Neil
How is the DV10X5 with the Jelco (I am pretty sure this is the cart I wil go for whether OL arm or Jelco)? From my research it would appear to be a good technical match?
The benefit of going the OL route is I can have them install on my behalf. Along with possibly their entry level power supply. If I can be convinced of the fundamental importance of externalising the PS.
Please remember I am not looking to achieve world class analogue playback. I am very happy with my digital front end and have been for a number of years now. I have no desire to upgrade it whatsoever. This is not the case with my analogue front end (1210 mk2 with Linn Adikt cart or Stanton 680 - preferred or AT 120E). I have in the past owned an EAR 864 which had an excellent mm phono (same as the 834) stage and this helped a great deal. I have also owned a MF A1008 integrated which also contained a very good phono stage which was almost on a par with the EAR. Over the years I have also owned a MF XLPSV8 (pretty good), Bellari phono stage (not that impressed) and a Cambridge Audio 640p (not impressed). What this has taught me is the importance of the phono stage within the analogue chain. I am currently using a Marantz KI pearl lite amplifier which has a half decent MM phono stage (on a par with the XLPSV8). It is not as good as the first two but is certainly better than the last two. It is adequate. The phono stage is something I am wiling to improve upon down the line but feel as though it is adequate for a decent MM or high output MC.
I am looking to upgrade the Technics in a cost effective fashion or alternatively replace it altogether with a Hi-Fi turntable. I would prefer to keep the Technics as I enjoy its ease of use, battleship build and drive. It is ok for the playback of 12 inches and single tracks but I enjoy it less for long periods of listening to LP's. It just does not sound as good as my digital - be it WAV's or well mastered CD's. The Technics sounds course in comparison. It is narrow, thick sounding and closed in. It does however have tremendous drive and dynamic capability.
I have never before owned a MC cart. My feeling is the sound character of MC carts would help improve the Technics in the areas where it needs improving. However, I do not really want to go down the low output MC + step up route as this will be expensive. I like what I hear of the DV10X5. It seems to be almost universally regarded as the best HO MC out there. I have read that it has good synergy with both the Jelco and the OL arms.
My concern with the OL arm is it is Rega based and many are of the opinion that Rega type arms do not synergise with the Technics. The lack of removable headshell is a non-issue for me.
I like the look of the Jelco but I am concerned about reports of limited cartridge compatibility. However, I am pretty much set on the DV10X5 and this would appear to be a good technical match. There are quite a few reports of it working well onthe Jelco 750.
Quite a few people people report satisfaction after re-wiring the standard arm. Others argue the MK5G is the one to go for (I have a MK2 in excellent condition) as it comes with improved wiring as standard, improved tone arm mounting and improved vibrational dampening in the body. Has any one done an A/B test comparison of the MK2 V MK5G? Maybe I should sell the MK2, buy a MK5G, replace the headshell, fit a DV10X5, fit an Achromat, replace the feet, add a decent phono stage and leave it at that. I certainly prefer the look of the MK5G.
There is also currently a MK4 up on Ebay which was apparently a limited edition Technics aimed at the Japanese audiophile market. It is apparently the best sounding of the lot. Does anyone have experience of this model?
Any further thoughts?
I have a 750D and its a good arm within a range of carts but its not happy with others. So if you go for a Denon 103 with suitable headshell its great and is a very synergistic match with the Technics but outside that I think its more problematic.
I would also not go with the Jelco arm cable its opaque and very closed in.
The PSU mentioned is a good option as would a Paul Hynes SR2
Regards Neil
What are your thoughts on its compatibility with the DV10X5?
What tonearm cable would you recommend at or around the same price?
Trust me, the Funk tube and wiring upgrade transforms the arm into something very special.
I'm just not sure that they are readily available at the moment.
Isn't this very expensive though?
I cannot really comment on the effect of the PSU since I bought my Techie 2nd hand with an external Timestep PSU, and have never compared it to a standard deck with the internal PSU in my system. I have been told that moving iron carts like the MM3 is a big no-no with the std techie due to hum issues, which I never experienced with the external psu. The techie was a great deck and has many virtues which are well documented, but to me it was always a bit of a noisy deck and I could never really get that 3D sound projecting from a pitch black background. Perhaps this is something that the Mike New bearing and platter would've achieved, but I just couldn't justify sinking that amount of money on a Techie. Others here have gone the whole nine yards and achieved audio nirvana, it was just a path I chose not to follow, and given my experiences with OL, the Encounter arm and Mark Baker, decided to give the Resolution a go when it came up at the right price, and like I said I've never looked back, to me it plays music just the way I like it, it sounds just right and I've never had the inclination to fettle with it or felt short changed. There is an OL aurora with one of the cheaper OL arms on sale on this forum and/or the Wam, and I know what I would've gone for given the choice between that and a fully fettled techie or upgrading one in your case. I have no doubt that that will not be the most popular choice on this forum, but from my experience that is what I would've gone for, without a doubt. Either way, it is an exciting journey and the most important part is to enjoy it. You cannot go that much wrong.
If I were you, I'd give Mark Baker a call and have a chat with him, you've got nothing to lose, he is very familiar with the Techie and I have always experienced him as very honest and straight forward. He has even turned me away from more expensive products in his his range in the past because he felt that I could spend my money better elsewhere.
Chivas
I have used a Stanton 680EL moving iron cart with a Technics for a number of years now and have experienced no hum issues whatsoever.
There is certainly a strong case to be made for replacing the Technics altogether with a well designed Hi-Fi table. This could be the way I go.
ChrisKemp
15-08-2014, 10:34
I had the mk2 from november last year up until this spring when I bought the M5G. The M5G is the best and last 1210 version they made. First it looks so much better than mk2 IMO. The arm is basically the same with some upgrades. It has better wireing, better antiscate and a coupple of more things I can't remember. You want gain much by changing the tonearm wire in the M5G. But the fluid damper help alot on firming up the bass and clearer mids. It has better quartz lock also. Otherwise it's basically the same as the mk2.
I just can't understand that the Jelco or any Jelco based arms won't have good synergy with just about any cartridge. Except for cartridges like Music Maker III that benefit from very light tonearms. Like the IsoKinetik that has a total arm mass of just 13g. I'm sure there are even lighter headshells than the standard one and much heavier ones too. I use the Sumiko HS-12 pluss IsoKinetik cartridge stabilizer (spacer about 3g) so I have now 15 g extra together with my KAB arm. According to Vinyl Engine calculator I have a resonance number at 10,1 Hz with my DL-103R. The Jelco based armes are even better. Find the right headshell with the right mass to go with your 10X5 and I'm sure the result will be great. You might find the sound different with the OL Silver, but maybe not better. I have read on other forums that people has gone from a Cardas/ KAB arm with KAB Fluid Damper to an OL Silver. Many changed back to their KAB arm liking it better.
Don't underestimate the original arm. It has great bearings compared to many others. If you getKevin at KAB to rewire it, he will also internally dampen the arm and put a resonance end plug on it. Together with a fluid damper I'm 100% sure you would be happy. Then you still keep the VTA on the fly flexibility of the Techics arm.
My oppinion is if you're not going to buy a Mike New Bearing, upgrade your original arm. Giv Kevin at KAB a call/ email and he can answer any questions you may have. The KAB arm is perfectly good with MM and HOMC. IMHO
Spectral Morn
15-08-2014, 12:41
What are your thoughts on its compatibility with the DV10X5?
What tonearm cable would you recommend at or around the same price?
Sorry I have never heard a DV10X5.
Re arm cable I use a Graham IC70 but that's a pretty expensive option (I bought a spare one S/H a few years ago to provide a balanced option for my Graham Phantom, but use the RCA one on the Jelco). As I haven't tried many I am not really in a good position to offer any advice sorry, other than the Jelco arm cable should be avoided at all costs imho.
Re the Rega issue frankly I don't think it is an issue with Technics decks. Audio Note based on Rega, Audio Mods - Based on Rega, OL some based on Rega, Funk - based in part on Rega. Rega arms have been the choice of many companies over the years to create a better Rega or a new arm using a few Rega bits to save costs re machining new bits.
I think a vanilla Rega arm would not be a good choice because some of its failing tie in with some of the Technics failings. However most Rega failings are because of the cable used internally, and the paint used on the arms (yep some strip this off and report improved sound). Other companies cut slots in the underside of the arm Michell and OL or drill holes Audio Mods, to change the vibrational characteristics of the arm tube. Funk change the arm tube all together - and all rewire.
I have listened to a number of Rega based arms on my Technics decks and they have all sounded very good.
I don't envy you because this is not an easy thing to do because you are relying on disparate advice which reflects users listening bias, system synergy, music choice, rooms etc and not having access to these option to try yourself makes it hard.
Regards Neil
Regards Neil
rubber duck
15-08-2014, 13:37
Isn't this very expensive though?
Er, yes. Very.
I am very interested in the Funk Firm mods. They are outside my original budget. However, I could be convinced should the sonic gains be worth it. On Friday I gave Funk a call and spoke with Arthur. I was keen to hear his take on things. He firmly believes the greatest sonic gains are achieved by replacing the platter and tonearm. Much more so than an external power supply or moving the transformer outside of the turntable. He does acknowledge improvements can be had by externalising the power supply and replacing the bearing but these improvements are nowhere near as marked as replacing the platter and tonearm. Coming from a well respected turntable designer this opinion counts for a lot in my opinion.
I am looking to upgrade my Technics in a 'reasonable' fashion. In the first stages, concentrating on the tonearm and platter would seem to be the way to go. I did find a thread on another forum a couple of days ago where the guy was basically arguing if no hum can be heard then there is no point externalising the transformer. Similarly, he argued that the existing power supply was pretty decent. I am sure gains can be had by externalising the PS but I am not convinced it is as night and day as some enthusiasts report. I would love to hear an A/B test comparison of two suitably and equivalently nodded 1210's. One with an external PS and one without and then one with the the transformer moved outside and one with it inside as stock. I'm guessing the chances are no none has done such a test as once a PS has been added or transformer externalised it is a lot of hassle going back to stock. I think it is interesting that the findings of the reviewer from the Hi-Fi Pig review (which I linked previously in this thread) of the Tech OL mods were that the improvements upon replacing the stock arm were far greater than that of adding the power supply.
I acknowledge that the stock arm does have some redeeming qualities (good bearings, VTA adjust etc.) but I have the MK2 version with the poor quality wiring. If on a low upgrade budget a re-wire of the original tonearm could make sense. The stock arm is an old design, built to a budget with an arm pipe that rings. From what I can gather, the tonearm plays a crucial part in the performance of any turntable with some arguing it is more important than the cartridge itself. A good mid-level cartridge on a quality, well designed tonearm will apparently outperform a well regarded, high-end cartridge on a compromised tonearm. This would appear to be the opinion of many who have far greater experience and knowledge than I do.
I am starting to consider the patter upgrade (which would negate the need for a Achromat) along with replacing the tonearm as first stage mods. I am also considering the cheaper feet that OL and Vantage Audio offer instead of the more expensive Isonoes. Many would appear to prefer these feet.
The Funk Firm Technics platter 2 (which incorporates an Achromat in its design) is fairly expensive. The original version is about the same price as the well regarded ETP platter. One of these cheaper replacement platters + a well chosen, good value, price-performance tonearm + Dynavector DV10X5 could be the sensible way I go in the first stages.
However, I am keen to hear the fully Funked Technics with FX1200 arm + platter 2 and if the improvements are significant and can be heard I would be more than happy to make the additional investment.
Further food for thought. There is no rush.
I want you to do a quick experiment. It takes 30 seconds, costs nothing, and is easily repeatable.
With the platter not spinning, place the needle on the disc. Turn the volume up until you can hear the hum of the transformer in your speakers. (which is the TT vibrating, as the transformer is shaking it.)
Also, try this with the needle/cartridge more inboard and/or more outboard, as some cartridges are very susceptible to picking up the magnetic hum radiated from the transformer.
Ask yourself if that vibration, permeating throughout the entire deck and being picked up by the (literal) vibration sensor known as the cartridge is good for overall playback.
That's all I'm getting at... Your seismograph, I.E., turntable, is shaking. Remove the source of the vibration, and the entire playback becomes clearer.
However, I am keen to hear the fully Funked Technics with FX1200 arm + platter 2 and if the improvements are significant and can be heard I would be more than happy to make the additional investment.
I can't help there. I only have a fully Funked FX1200 + mk1 platter. It sounds pretty good to my ears. Picture - http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?29472-The-Tech-Gallery&p=557775#post557775
I believe another member of this parish has a similar deck, but with the original carbon tubed version of the arm.
Thanks Jim. Fair point.
Unfortunately, I have just sold my speakers so cannot do this test right now. I will be without speakers for the next few weeks. I am replacing them with Proac D18's.
I do not doubt what you are saying. Would this be audible during normal playback? Would a replacement platter go some way to negating the effects?
Arthur has invited me down to his premises to have a listen (also in Sussex). I hope to do so within the next few weeks.
You'll be in for a treat.
His decks are pretty good, and he certainly knows what he is doing. I'm still hoping to try out a mk.2 platter, as this is supposed to have slightly better bass than the mk.1 platter.
A possible upgrade plan could be:
OL Onyx tonearm £450
OL Armboard £58
Funk Firm Technics Platter £595
OL Feet £40
Total: £1143
+ a good mid-level cartridge such as the Dynavector DV10X5, Nagoka MP500 (imported), Goldring 1042 or Ortofon 2M Bronze.
I believe this could be a cost-effective approach. Just thinking out loud.
I believe that the mk2 Funk platter is a bit more expensive.
If you shop around, you may find a mk1 platter for sale second hand, giving you more money for a tonearm.
On your budget, I would get an Achromat for the standard platter and put more money into the arm to start with.
The platter is an easy upgrade that can be done later. If not, you may regret going with a relatively cheap tonearm.
The Funk platter I quoted in my proposed upgrade plan was the MK1. From what I can gather the OL Onyx is a very well regarded tonearm, 5 star Hi-Fi World review and award winner with plenty of other great reviews and positive user feedback . It should be a marked improvement on the 1210 mk2 arm. Remember, I would prefer to upgrade in a cost-effective fashion. I am not looking for world class analogue playback, just something that will allow me to enjoy my vinyl more so than I do at the moment. I need to be wary of the point of diminishing returns.
Look at the OL resonances - a huge one added (IIRC) right in the midrange to make artificial 'excitement.' Like the early to mid period Linn LP12 that deliberately coloured the sound to try to 'enhance' vinyl records in a supremely 'wrong' Linn/Naim/Linn system, I personally don't regard this as good engineering practise, especially when Technics did such a good all-round job on the 1200 series (feedback issues on pre quartz models aside, which can now be worked round!).
People seem to like the AN tonearm for its music making skills and if the Michell offering doesn't appeal, then this one may well last you a great number of years I think, although I've never used one. It's also been suggested that the SME M2 9" is good, but for some reason, SME seems passé in forum circles, if not the wider Hifi world...
I believe that the mk2 Funk platter is a bit more expensive.
If you shop around, you may find a mk1 platter for sale second hand, giving you more money for a tonearm.
On your budget, I would get an Achromat for the standard platter and put more money into the arm to start with.
The platter is an easy upgrade that can be done later. If not, you may regret going with a relatively cheap tonearm.
I accept there could be an argument made for perhaps going with the Funk FX1200 tonearm + Achromat in the first instance.
Look at the OL resonances - a huge one added (IIRC) right in the midrange to make artificial 'excitement.' Like the early to mid period Linn LP12 that deliberately coloured the sound to try to 'enhance' vinyl records in a supremely 'wrong' Linn/Naim/Linn system, I personally don't regard this as good engineering practise, especially when Technics did such a good all-round job on the 1200 series (feedback issues on pre quartz models aside, which can now be worked round!).
People seem to like the AN tonearm for its music making skills and if the Michell offering doesn't appeal, then this one may well last you a great number of years I think, although I've never used one. It's also been suggested that the SME M2 9" is good, but for some reason, SME seems passé in forum circles, if not the wider Hifi world...
Yes, the AN tonearm was my first consideration. I have not completely ruled it out.
Are OL arms really that bad in your opinion? There seem to be many happy users out there.
Another possible upgrade plan could be:
Audio Note Arm 1 Tonearm £654
Ebony wood Armboard £130
Funk Firm Achromatt £75
OL Feet £40
Total: £899
+ a good mid-level cartridge such as the Dynavector DV10X5, Nagoka MP500 (imported), Goldring 1042 or Ortofon 2M Bronze.
With a replacement platter to follow at a later stage.
Any thoughts?
Look at the OL resonances - a huge one added (IIRC) right in the midrange to make artificial 'excitement.' Like the early to mid period Linn LP12 that deliberately coloured the sound to try to 'enhance' vinyl records in a supremely 'wrong' Linn/Naim/Linn system, I personally don't regard this as good engineering practise, especially when Technics did such a good all-round job on the 1200 series (feedback issues on pre quartz models aside, which can now be worked round!).
People seem to like the AN tonearm for its music making skills and if the Michell offering doesn't appeal, then this one may well last you a great number of years I think, although I've never used one. It's also been suggested that the SME M2 9" is good, but for some reason, SME seems passé in forum circles, if not the wider Hifi world...
I'm inclined to agree David. I have not heard the SME M2 9 but someone just recently was selling his Jelco 750 in order to upgrade to that arm. It would certainly be on my shortlist.
...gave Funk a call and spoke with Arthur. I was keen to hear his take on things. He firmly believes the greatest sonic gains are achieved by replacing the platter and tonearm. Much more so than an external power supply or moving the transformer outside of the turntable. He does acknowledge improvements can be had by externalizing the power supply and replacing the bearing but these improvements are nowhere near as marked as replacing the platter and tonearm.
Read this bit again... Had to chuckle a bit -- of course he's going to say that, he doesn't sell a PSU. :)
Regardless, I'm not discounting his opinion at all, and anyway, I wouldn't part with my Acromat for anything.
Spectral Morn
18-08-2014, 06:44
Yes, the AN tonearm was my first consideration. I have not completely ruled it out.
Are OL arms really that bad in your opinion? There seem to be many happy users out there.
No they are not, Dave just has a B in his bonnet about certain companies and audio personalities and OL is one of his pet dislikes. Thing is when was this opinion formed, because I don't feel it's warranted these days. It was certainly the case when OL started out modding arms a long time ago that the end result wasn't as well finished as it could have been, still worked well, but OL today is a very different company and the products all look great and sound great. So For the record Dave when was the last time you saw, handled, heard and installed an OL arm?
Regards Neil
Read this bit again... Had to chuckle a bit -- of course he's going to say that, he doesn't sell a PSU. :)
Regardless, I'm not discounting his opinion at all, and anyway, I wouldn't part with my Acromat for anything.
He does sell a PSU & also a bearing upgrade. He just believes the arm & platter are where the greatest improvements are to be had.
I'm inclined to agree David. I have not heard the SME M2 9 but someone just recently was selling his Jelco 750 in order to upgrade to that arm. It would certainly be on my shortlist.
The SME M2-9 is available for £699 including tonearm cable. How woud this mate up with the cartridges I have proposed?
How would you allocate a £1500 budget on modifications to a stock SL1210 MK2 including either a MM, HO MC or LO MC (this would have to include some kind of step-up) cartridge? We are looking to achieve the best sound quality performance within that budget.
It will be interesting to see the different approaches people would take.
Personally, I would go with a 2nd hand arm. This allows more bang per buck.
Externalise the PSU, fit an achromat, isolation feet and leave a decent amount of cash for a 2M Black or AT150ANV. If enough budget left over, either a Mike New Bearing (I don't think the Funk bearing is in stock yet?) or a second hand platter. The bearing and platter changes were subtle to my ears compared to the arm and cartridge.
Mark
I suggest that you have a sig (signature) even if temporary. You can list your system there; speakers, amplifier, phono stage, even cabling and hi-fi rack. There are many knowledgeable people who could be more helpful, if they could visualise your proposed techie in a context. Access is via the 'Settings' toward the top of the window.
I can't make a recommendation of cartridge for the SME M2-9, partly because I have little experience in that area, partly because I do not know what phono stage you have, and also you will see that I have not heard that tone-arm. I only know of it's reputation, and without spending vast sums it is one of the few tonearms I would upgrade from my Jelco.
The 2-9 is medium mass I think, so although SPU's and/or DL103's are out, I believe most popular mm's and mc types should be perfectly ok and stable.
Although I sold many Goldring 10** series cartridges in my time, mostly on Regas, I intensely disliked a 1042 when I tried to use one at home and this has rather coloured me against it - apologies. The Ortofon 2M bronze is a definite step up on the Blue and I think the superior tip may be easier in terms of alignment. I loved the OM and 500 model predecessors of the 2M Bronze and bearing in mind the innards are fairly closely related I think, it should be an excellent choice and it also works in the stock arm I understand. Just replace the stock shell wires at least, or possibly try a Sumiko shell in the stock arm. It'll be too limiting for you, but Ortofon now manufacture versions of the 2M's moulded into suitable headshell fittings for the techie and generic, once called 'SME' shell fitting.
Mark
I suggest that you have a sig (signature) even if temporary. You can list your system there; speakers, amplifier, phono stage, even cabling and hi-fi rack. There are many knowledgeable people who could be more helpful, if they could visualise your proposed techie in a context. Access is via the 'Settings' toward the top of the window.
I can't make a recommendation of cartridge for the SME M2-9, partly because I have little experience in that area, partly because I do not know what phono stage you have, and also you will see that I have not heard that tone-arm. I only know of it's reputation, and without spending vast sums it is one of the few tonearms I would upgrade from my Jelco.
I have updated my profile to show my current system. Is this the same as creating a signature that shows current system or do I need to do something else? Currently, I have a Yamaha CDS-700 transport connected to a Musical Fidelity XDAC V8 (very happy with this) and a SL1210 MK2 (stock) with Linn Adikt/Stanton 680/Grado Gold or AT120E carts with both connected to a Marantz KI Pearl Lite amplifier. My speakers will soon be Proac D18's.
I have in the past owned better systems - Musical Fidelity A1008 (superb integrated which I rated very highly), Musical Fidelity A5Cr power amplifier (which I rated highly), Bryston 4BSST Power (preferred the MF A5CR), EAR 864 Pre (loved the phono stage/less enamoured with the line stage-too explicit/cold-lacked texture), Manley Labs Shrimp pre-amplifier (not bad but a little too warm & coloured for my tastes), Rogue Audio 99 Magnum (far too coloured and overblown for my tastes), Eastern Electric MiniMax (did not rate this at all). On the speaker front I have owned Dyn Contour 1.8 MK2 (3 pairs actually - I like them a lot, particularly with the MFA5CR - a good synergistic match in my opinion), Dyn Contour S3.4 (very good), Focal 1027BE (very good), Dali Helicon 400 (found them coloured & too big for my listening room), Proac Studio 130 (loved them - the best sound per pound I have spent on speakers), Proac Studio 140 (pretty good but not the most refined), Proac Studio 100 (not bad but quite a flat sound), Proac Studio 110 (very good stand-mounts - I enjoyed these), Acoustic Energy Aelite 2 (very good stand mounts, good value-I could live with these), Kef Q500 (I enjoyed the Uni-Q drivers - great sound dispersion, good value for money, entertaining but a little artificial sounding - probably better suited to AV).
On the turntable front I have always owned Technics. I did own a Marantz Clearaudio for a while (nice, quite sweet sounding by the manual belt change was a complete faff), also a Rega RP6 (which I found quite boring, though to be fair I probably didn't give it enogh time, I reckon it needs a fatter sounding cartridge to perform at its best. I found the sound thin & uninspiring with both the Stanton & AT cart I tried. I soon got shot of it).
Hopefully, this gives you a little insight into my audio experiences up to this point. I sold a lot of my kit a little while ago due to oter commitments. I am coming into some money within the next few weeks and I want to create a system that I can live with for the long-term, particularly on the analogue front (I am quite happy with the performance of my digital). It makes sense for me to concentrate on improving the performance of my Technics as I am so familiar with its sound signature and really enjoy its ease of use along with its plus points - drive, timing, ballsey sound. However, I am very aware of its failings - narrow sound stage, lack of detail, general coarseness, dark, restricted sound and lack of finesse.
Cheers
Mark
Spectral Morn
18-08-2014, 23:03
The 2-9 is medium mass I think, so although SPU's and/or DL103's are out, I believe most popular mm's and mc types should be perfectly ok and stable.
Although I sold many Goldring 10** series cartridges in my time, mostly on Regas, I intensely disliked a 1042 when I tried to use one at home and this has rather coloured me against it - apologies. The Ortofon 2M bronze is a definite step up on the Blue and I think the superior tip may be easier in terms of alignment. I loved the OM and 500 model predecessors of the 2M Bronze and bearing in mind the innards are fairly closely related I think, it should be an excellent choice and it also works in the stock arm I understand. Just replace the stock shell wires at least, or possibly try a Sumiko shell in the stock arm. It'll be too limiting for you, but Ortofon now manufacture versions of the 2M's moulded into suitable headshell fittings for the techie and generic, once called 'SME' shell fitting.
Dave you still haven't answered the questions I put to you in my post 69. The answers to which will give some context to your OL bashing.
Regards Neil
He does sell a PSU
Whoops!
Sorry... Crow eaten. :)
I am starting to lean towards the Audio note Arm 1, Ebony wood armboard, Achromat and either OL feet or Isonoes + Dynavector DV10X5.
The other option I am starting to consider is as above but with a SME309 replacing the AN Arm 1, with a 2M black or 2M Bronze into a valve phono stage. I feel this combination would be too stark and cold into a solid state stage.
There is a chacnce I will be going back to my previously owned MF A1008 integrated which contains a pretty good phono stage. I would be using this with Proac D18's. My feeling is (from experience) it would be a pretty good match. I feel both the above options could work well in this context.
I have decided the platter, power supply & bearing upgrades will follow with time should I feel the need. My feeling is the greater benefits are to be had by concentrating on the arm, cartridge and phono stage intermix. I could of course be wrong.
As per my previous post, I would be interested to hear the opinions of other enthusiasts on how they would allocate a budget of £1500 towards modifications of a Technics SL1210 MK2. With the aim being to maximise the sound quality of the turntable. Please disregard the system or phono stage. Just create what you believe would be the highest sound quality achieving solution at the set budget. If you are going to include a low output MC you must allocate part of the budget to some kind of step up.
I look forward to hearing the approaches you would take.
Thanks
Mark
Clive197
19-08-2014, 08:30
I have decided the platter, power supply & bearing upgrades will follow with time should I feel the need. My feeling is the greater benefits are to be had by concentrating on the arm, cartridge and phono stage intermix. I could of course be wrong.
Mark
IMHO and experience, I don't think you are wrong. That is exactly the conclusion I arrived at and even after living with my deck for just over a year now, I still love the sound it produces.
However......I am starting to get the itch regarding the arm, this is more the upgradeitis that I'm prone to suffer than any doubts I have for the OL Silver. I've sort of looked (online) but not heard the following, Micro Seiki ML202, Jelco 750D, IsoKinetic Silver Melody and SME M2, but as I do not know what changes, for good or bad any of these arms would do I'm reluctant to pull the trigger.
Clive
Yeah, I reckon the SME M2-9 would be a fantastic cosmetic match for the Technics. Does anyone have experience of this arm on the Technics? Would it be beter than the Jelco I wonder? Would it still require a Technics/SME armboard? From the pictures it looks like it comes with some kind of armboard as standard.
I am also tempted to perhaps up the arm budget and go with a SME 309 which many would seem to rate very highly. It would not look as good as SME M2-9 though in my opinion.
Any thoughts on these SME options?
Go and Visit Arthur at the Funk Firm and get him to demonstrate what the FX1200 does.
It really is quite superb, if a tad expensive. Failing that, have a chat to Dave at Soundhifi as he does quite a few mods for the Technics and will be able to offer a different opinion.
I refer you all back to posts 72 & 79.
How would you allocate a budget of £1500 towards modifications of a Technics SL1210 MK2 (including cartridge). With the aim being to maximise the sound quality of the turntable.
Please disregard the system or phono stage for the time being - you can assume flexibility on this front. Just create what you believe would be the highest sound quality achieving Technics turntable solution at the set budget. If you are going to include a low output MC you must allocate part of the budget to some kind of step up.
Only CageyH has offered up an opinion/approach so far. I look forward to hearing the approach you would take.
Ammonite Audio
19-08-2014, 13:09
Are you prepared to do all the upgrade work yourself, or rely on a dealer? If the latter, I would talk to Dave Cawley at Sound HiFi, particularly since he almost specialises in fitting SME tonearms to the SL-1210.
Having been through a whole load of expensive upgrades on an SL-1210, I would not dismiss the PSU and bearing so quickly. A good external PSU, such as the Paul Hynes Audio ones (see http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?30029-Paul-Hynes-Audio-Ltd ) start at a reasonable price and will give you real benefits in all aspects of musical replay. If you sit down and listen to an SL-1210 with a good external PSU, then again to a standard deck, I am confident that you would not wish to keep the standard deck. The difference is superficially subtle, but musically profound - the difference between wanting to listen and not wanting to listen.
The bearing is a weak point in the deck, not because of friction but because it is structurally rather weak (as is the part of the alloy chassis to which it is attached). Mike New's bearing addresses the weakness comprehensively, but would blow a good chunk of your budget. The Timestep modified bearing could be worth looking at - it addresses the flexy/wobbly spindle problem and costs a reasonable £250. If you get a bearing that is structurally sound, then you don't really need to rush around after fancy platters, since an Achromat bonded to the standard platter with Vaseline will impart all the structural strength and damping that it needs, until such time as you feel tempted by 3rd party platters. You can strengthen the weak chassis bearing well for pennies by pouring in molten beeswax (up to the baseplate of the bearing).
So, speaking as someone who ultimately moved away from the SL-1210, I would spend money on the bearing and PSU, then look at deploying the remaining £1k or so on the arm and cartridge. I love my Audio Note Arm3 and recommend it highly, but admit to being tempted by both the SME 309 and M2-9R, either of which would leave you nil for the cartridge, but there are plenty of cheapy MM options that could keep you going. The SME M2-9 would leave you a few hundred pounds for a cartridge like DSJR's favourite Goldring 1042 which, when properly set up, is capable of astonishing musical performance.
I hope that helps.
Are you prepared to do all the upgrade work yourself, or rely on a dealer? If the latter, I would talk to Dave Cawley at Sound HiFi, particularly since he almost specialises in fitting SME tonearms to the SL-1210.
Having been through a whole load of expensive upgrades on an SL-1210, I would not dismiss the PSU and bearing so quickly. A good external PSU, such as the Paul Hynes Audio ones (see http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?30029-Paul-Hynes-Audio-Ltd ) start at a reasonable price and will give you real benefits in all aspects of musical replay. If you sit down and listen to an SL-1210 with a good external PSU, then again to a standard deck, I am confident that you would not wish to keep the standard deck. The difference is superficially subtle, but musically profound - the difference between wanting to listen and not wanting to listen.
The bearing is a weak point in the deck, not because of friction but because it is structurally rather weak (as is the part of the alloy chassis to which it is attached). Mike New's bearing addresses the weakness comprehensively, but would blow a good chunk of your budget. The Timestep modified bearing could be worth looking at - it addresses the flexy/wobbly spindle problem and costs a reasonable £250. If you get a bearing that is structurally sound, then you don't really need to rush around after fancy platters, since an Achromat bonded to the standard platter with Vaseline will impart all the structural strength and damping that it needs, until such time as you feel tempted by 3rd party platters. You can strengthen the weak chassis bearing well for pennies by pouring in molten beeswax (up to the baseplate of the bearing).
So, speaking as someone who ultimately moved away from the SL-1210, I would spend money on the bearing and PSU, then look at deploying the remaining £1k or so on the arm and cartridge. I love my Audio Note Arm3 and recommend it highly, but admit to being tempted by both the SME 309 and M2-9R, either of which would leave you nil for the cartridge, but there are plenty of cheapy MM options that could keep you going. The SME M2-9 would leave you a few hundred pounds for a cartridge like DSJR's favourite Goldring 1042 which, when properly set up, is capable of astonishing musical performance.
I hope that helps.
Thanks Hugo. A fantastic post. I already own a Linn Adikt cart which as I understand it is based on the Goldring 1042. I could use this innitially so as to save budget for elsewhere. My only concern is it is a little old now and perhaps not performing at its best. Yes, the SME 309 and M2-9 are starting to look like attractive options for the long-term. Is the mounting arrangement the same for both arms? They look slightly different in the photographs.
Ammonite Audio
19-08-2014, 14:48
I believe all SME arms have the same mounting pattern, but to be sure I'd ask Dave Cawley at Sound HiFi.
Are the M2-9 and the M2-9R completely different beasts? Obviously one is straight and the other S shaped. Looking at the SME web site it would appear the 9 has internal copper litz and the 9R has silver litz. From what I can gather the 9R would seem to be a very recent addition to the line? I get the impression there are significant differences between the 9 and the 9R. The 9R is around the same price as the 309. I wonder how their performances would compare? The 9R would certainly make a lovely cosmetic match to the 1210. From what I can gather the SL-1500 was often paired with the SME3009, a fairly well regarded arm in its own right. Could the 9R be a modern reinterpretation of it?
Give Dave Cawley a call, I am sure you will find his advice useful. My FX1200 came from him.
However......I am starting to get the itch regarding the arm, this is more the upgradeitis that I'm prone to suffer than any doubts I have for the OL Silver. I've sort of looked (online) but not heard the following, Micro Seiki ML202, Jelco 750D, IsoKinetic Silver Melody and SME M2, but as I do not know what changes, for good or bad any of these arms would do I'm reluctant to pull the trigger.
Clive
At the point that you have to scratch, why not go up the OL line? I have been thinking about the Encounter which is the start of their dual pivot line. As a small makeweight you would not have to change the armboard.
Just to let you all know I think I have narrowed it down to either a Jelco SA750D or SME M2-9 tonearm. I have based this decision on user feedback, value for money and aesthetic considerations.
Also, I have had a re-think on the cartridge front. It was always my aim to use a good quality valve phono stage with the turntable. I am concerned the slightly lower output of the Dyna cart may be problematic for a valve phono stage. A Pure Sound P10 is my first choice and there are a few people online reporting difficulties using this stage with the DV10x5 and other HO MC's. I have decided to go for the Ortofon 2M Bronze. The 2M range apparently work very well with the P10. I have heard the 2M Blue on the Technics and I liked the match.
Other bits:
Achromat 1200 bonded with a thin coating of vaseline
Isonoes in black
Ebony wood armboard
I will see how I get on with this set up. If I am reasonably satisfied (remember I am not looking for or expecting to achieve world class analogue playback) I will leave it at that for the time being. If there is a nagging disatisfaction I will invest in the external PS. Hopefully this will be a good foundation upon which I can build in the future should I feel the need - bearing, platter upgrade etc. It will be a few weeks off yet before I buy all the bits. I will of course keep you all updated.
Thank you very much for all your help and guidance.
Cheers
Mark
Clive197
22-08-2014, 19:54
I've just bought PHONOMAC's Encounter Mk3A arm, so I will probably move my OL Silver3A arm to a new home. Will make a final decision on that by next week, keep it or sell it?
Clive
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