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Filterlab
20-03-2008, 13:12
Your thoughts please gentlemen, and in the interests of pure membership feedback, admin and mods should not vote on this poll.

Cheers.

Steve Toy
20-03-2008, 13:26
I voted for the second option but this refers more to the ADM9s/Apple love-in than AVI in general, a company reputed for excellent high fidelity components including amps, speakers and CD players.

Oh dear I voted but I acknowledge my vote and where it went for the purposes of counting later.

"Where specifically addressed" should mean responses to "I want to upgrade the music coming from my computer" not simply "I want to upgrade (part of) my hi-fi."

I will say that the restriction really should take the form of a gentlemen's agreement rather than a more formal limitation.

Filterlab
20-03-2008, 13:28
...and in the interests of pure membership feedback, admin and mods should not vote on this poll.


Obviously not loud enough. :D

That's ok mate, the final count will be tell-tale enough.

enbee23
20-03-2008, 13:37
As I see it, there should be more options on the poll.
This is what I would do and why:

AVI should be afforded the same rights as all other manufacturers, even though they (AVI) have repeatedly abused the tolerance of every forum they have joined.

For a marketeer, Ashley seems to have a very poor grasp of how to positively interact with other people. More to the point, he seems to have completely lost sight of the fact that PEOPLE, ie. the customers or even just the potential customers (even those with views different from his own) are the most important part of this game, not some theoretical engineering ideal. Hope springs eternal...

jcb, on the other hand appears to be nothing more than a puffed up self important hanger on and does no good to AVI or himself. If only he could see himself as others see him. Hope has left the building.

I would allow him posting rights on any subject except AVI or their products unless in direct response to a specific query from another non AVI-affiliated forum member.

Filterlab
20-03-2008, 13:42
...I would allow him posting rights on any subject except AVI or their products unless in direct response to a specific query from another non AVI-affiliated forum member.

Which is essentially option two. Obviously whatever the outcome there will be moderation on subsequent posts to check that everything stays within the restriction as voted. I could have added many more options but three simple and clear options is plenty to gauge a feeling.

Filterlab
20-03-2008, 13:43
Four options now, one has just been added.

enbee23
20-03-2008, 13:44
Sorry, should have been clearer:
Option 1 for Ashley/AVI, option 2 for jcblurb.

Filterlab
20-03-2008, 13:45
Ahh, I see what you mean now.

Marco
20-03-2008, 13:49
Could we ask that all members vote, please?

There are enough options I would hope to satisfy everyone.

We have 175 members now and I would really like as many people to vote as possible as it's the only way to get a true reflection of current feeling on this matter.

So let's see plenty of voting on this issue, please.

Marco.

enbee23
20-03-2008, 13:51
Ahh, I see what you mean now.


Personally I would have said option 2 (or 3!) for both as I am heartily sick of reading their tag-team BS all over the interweb. Their tantrums earlier today tell the whole world what kind of people they truly are, underneath those "nice old English buffer" exteriors...

However... AVI is a manufacturer and this forum sets its stall by giving manufacturers a place to say their piece. So AVI has to get option 1. I just wish Ashley would wind his neck in a little...

enbee23
20-03-2008, 13:53
Could we ask that all members vote, please?

There are enough options I would hope to satisfy everyone.

We have 175 members now and I would really like as many people to vote as possible as it's the only way to get a true reflection of current feeling on this matter.

So let's see plenty of voting on this issue, please.

Marco.

If you could run separate polls for Ashley and jcb, then I would happily vote as per my scribble above. at the moment, my vote would be a miscue...

:)

enbee23
20-03-2008, 14:02
Yes, I'm a fussy cnut :doh:

Filterlab
20-03-2008, 14:05
:lol:

But if you weren't, chances are you wouldn't be into hi-fi or hi-fi forums. :)

Marco
20-03-2008, 14:17
LOL :lol:

Nick, just click on one of the bloody boxes and be done with it - the one with most of your favourite letters in it, or something! ;)

Purely for the sake of compiling some reasonably meaningful statistics.

You've pretty much voted (indirectly), anyway, from the comments you've expressed :)

Marco.

enbee23
20-03-2008, 14:23
Done :)

Filterlab
20-03-2008, 14:23
...the one with most of your favourite letters in it, or something!...

Nice, now THAT'S democracy. :D

enbee23
20-03-2008, 14:30
Nice, now THAT'S democracy. :D

Democracy my arse. This is one of those consultation exercise thingies. Marco's already taken them out the back and shot 'em :lol:

Filterlab
20-03-2008, 14:42
Democracy my arse. This is one of those consultation exercise thingies. Marco's already taken them out the back and shot 'em :lol:

You know what, I think you may be right. There's sometimes, just occasionally, a mad mad glint in his eye. It's the look of a killer, a dyed-in-the-wool psychopath. I never hold eye contact for more than three seconds.

enbee23
20-03-2008, 15:01
Very prudent.
:)

anthonyTD
20-03-2008, 15:04
Personally I would have said option 2 (or 3!) for both as I am heartily sick of reading their tag-team BS all over the interweb. Their tantrums earlier today tell the whole world what kind of people they truly are, underneath those "nice old English buffer" exteriors...

However... AVI is a manufacturer and this forum sets its stall by giving manufacturers a place to say their piece. So AVI has to get option 1. I just wish Ashley would wind his neck in a little...
sense at last!!!

enbee23
20-03-2008, 15:33
sense at last!!!

I'm full of it ;)

Marco
20-03-2008, 17:00
You're full of something. I don't know about sense! ;)

Interesting voting so far!

Marco.

enbee23
20-03-2008, 17:04
You're full of something. I don't know about sense! ;)

Interesting voting so far!

Marco.

;)

Nick
20-03-2008, 17:05
:lolsign:

Not helped by me accidentally clicking number one instead of number two :D

Marco
20-03-2008, 17:06
What are you like! :lol:

Marco.

Mike
20-03-2008, 18:20
I was going to write a long winded suggestion but I can't be arsed, I'm tired coz I went to work at 4:30 this morning and I'm pissed off coz I need to find four grand for a new heating system.

Why can't 'the lads' have their own AVI Room where they can natter on to their hearts content about anything and everything to do with AVI?
That way they may be less tempted to go wading into other threads touting iPod/mac & ADM9's as the answer to all mankind's Hi-Fi interests.
I'm sure if they had their own soapbox, as some others have, this would not happen.

I for one would not like to see anyone banned or completely gagged, so I'm going for option 1 as the other options seem a bit draconian (bet you didn't see that coming!).

Cheers,
Mike.

EDIT: It could all be a moot point now, I've a feeling they've taken their ball home.

Marco
20-03-2008, 18:30
Good call, Mike. We'll give it serious consideration.

Take it easy if you can, dude. It seems like it's all go for you at the moment!

Chill out and listen to a few tunes :smoking:

Marco.

leo
20-03-2008, 18:43
I voted for the first, I've heard the ADM9's which was not my cup of tea at all .
I've no problem with Ash and JC rambling as much as they like about these things tbh, they'll suit some folks needs but certainly not mine

jandl100
20-03-2008, 18:48
Out Out Out !!

I'd vote for Option 2 for Ashley - but JCBum is one of those noxious closed-minded hypocritical loudmouthed bigoted idiots you sometimes stumble across on ZG. I really don't want him around here, thanks. So, sorry Ashley - but given the available options, you get thrown out with the bathwater! :wave:

Mike
20-03-2008, 18:58
Out Out Out !!

I'd vote for Option 2 for Ashley - but JCBum is one of those noxious closed-minded hypocritical loudmouthed bigoted idiots you sometimes stumble across on ZG. I really don't want him around here, thanks. So, sorry Ashley - but given the available options, you get thrown out with the bathwater! :wave:

Come now!.... don't beat about the bush! :lolsign:

Mike
20-03-2008, 19:49
Oooh!... I know! I know!

We could do this to them instead:

http://www.theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=340

:lolsign:

Nick
20-03-2008, 19:55
Why can't 'the lads' have their own AVI Room where they can natter on to their hearts content about anything and everything to do with AVI? That way they may be less tempted to go wading into other threads touting iPod/mac & ADM9's as the answer to all mankind's Hi-Fi interests. I'm sure if they had their own soapbox, as some others have, this would not happen.

This sounds like an excellent idea to me.

Then we could nip and occasionally talk about out dated legacy hardware :lol:

Seriously though this does sound like an good compromise.

Mike Reed
20-03-2008, 19:56
Can I vote for ENBEE and LEO, whose sensible views reflect my own?

Attilla the JANDL 100, on the other hand, sounds a bit negatively focussed, but I LOVE his cat, and he IS a classical music lover.

Neither Ashley nor J.C. bother me, and both are competently literate, unlike some whose total disregard of punctuation, paragraphs and syntax make their postings indecipherable. I'd imagine the former's postings without the technological diarrhoea and breast-beating would be interesting. But then I haven't the slightest interest in computers, let alone computer audio.

God! I'm a sad old reactionary! I'll vote one and a half. Fences are safe!

Marco
20-03-2008, 20:19
Neither Ashley nor J.C. bother me, and both are competently literate, unlike some whose total disregard of punctuation, paragraphs and syntax make their postings indecipherable.


Perhaps I should write less then, Mike :lol:

Ashley or jc don't bother me either, in fact I like them both. I have spoken to Ashley and he comes across as a genuinely interesting and nice bloke. I wish his company well. But the fact of the matter is both of them were beginning to take over the forum and turn it into their own playground to promote AVI and computer audio.

I have nothing whatsoever against either but we have a broad base of tastes and opinions in our membership and they all have to be catered for, not just the computer side of things and AVI products which facilitate their use.

The Art of Sound is not and never shall be a pro-computer audio forum, so both of them need to respect this fact. Ashley and jc had no interest in acknowledging the benefits of other more traditional means of enjoying recorded music and were painting a very one-sided, jaundiced, view of both the industry and hi-fi in general.

If they are allowed (and wish to) contribute in future things will have to change.

Marco.

Mike Reed
20-03-2008, 21:00
MARCO,

My latter remark was more aimed at another forum that I rarely post on nowadays.

You obviously have a handle on what was materialising on the thread, (I also respect your judgement in this) and I have voted appropriately.

Wasn't aware of the flat-Earth bias, but as it's the only thing I understand, it's fine by me. Thought Rob was a bit more avant-garde in this respect, though.

Marco
20-03-2008, 21:55
Mike,

Thanks for your thoughts.

There is no intended flat-Earth bias on The Art of Sound; neither is there a computer audio bias, or any other bias for that matter. We embrace all forms of hi-fi reproduction and believe there are merits in each approach.

We feel that the all-embracing of any particular approach to the exclusion of others, in general, does not necessarily offer long-term satisfaction and/or ultimate performance, and in our experience it is generally more rewarding to mix old and new technologies in hi-fi systems. Quite simply, there is no 'true path' in audio, so championing one particular approach as being the 'ultimate solution', as did Ashley and jc, is frankly a fallacy.

Obviously each member of the admin team has their own opinion and bias, as do of course our members, but that does not detract from our ethos which is for open-mindedness and a willingness to embrace all concepts old and new. Everything goes here, from valves to all forms of computer audio - we don't wish to alienate anyone. This will remain our goal now and in the future as the forum expands and develops.

I just thought that I would take the opportunity to make that clear to everyone :)

Marco.

Marco
21-03-2008, 23:14
Just to let everyone know, the voting on this poll closes at midnight tonight so if anyone hasn't voted yet now is your last chance before the results are passed on to Ashley and jc for them to decide what they want to do.

Therefore if you haven't voted yet, please do so!

Marco.

Marco
22-03-2008, 00:16
Poll now closed.

Marco.

Steve Toy
22-03-2008, 04:41
To add to what Marco has said above in post #36, there is no flat earth bias here. However we are essentially a subjectivist forum in that measurements, magazine reviews and opinions of 'experts' or trusted acquaintances may support a given viewpoint but the final arbiter for opinions with any credibility should always be a pair of fully functioning ears connected to a very open mind.

Ian Walker
22-03-2008, 09:39
Poll now closed.

DOH i was just about to vote!

Marco
22-03-2008, 10:14
LOL. It won't affect the results anyway, dafty!

Marco.

Mike Reed
22-03-2008, 11:47
To add to what Marco has said above in post #3 but the final arbiter for opinions with any credibility should always be a pair of fully functioning ears connected to a very open mind.

Well said, Steve, but an open mind with hopefully something in between.

This Arctic b. h. weather brings on the facetious in me; apologies and back to Shian's jokey section.

Marco
22-03-2008, 12:24
Just to update on the situation, so you know what's happening, I sent Ashley the following email:


Hi Ashley,

I hope all is well with you.

Following recent events, a poll was carried out on the forum - the results of which are shown in the link below:

http://www.theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?p=4910#post4910

You are welcome to contribute as outlined in the poll, but of course the decision is up to you. The admin team value your contributions but simply wish to see less about ADM9s and computer audio and more about your other products and thoughts on hi-fi in general. You are also welcome to advertise in our trade area, as per our other trade members.

Please advise me accordingly of your intentions.

Best regards,
Marco.


To which I received this reply:


Marco I hadn't mentioned ADM9s, all I'd done was answer inevitable questions.

JCBrum has a fan club and his extremely amusing comments would have increased traffic, despite offending Richard who is am ignorant, rude bore. It's not surprising he went bust!

If it's your Forum you should dictate the terms not ask the present residents what they think because they are an unrepresentative minority and if you want to grow you'll have to piss them off.

ADM9s would have helped you because so many people are interested in them, hate and resent them or whatever, it would have increased traffic. People enjoy the fights.

As it is you're wedded to the ideas of a tiny minority and that's all you're ever going to get on the site. You should have the guts to allow controversy and to ignore the spineless losers who can't defend themselves in debate.

I'm not interested in talking to narrow little twerps who can have anything they don't like removed!!!

We're selling as many as we can make and people on these Forums, in the main, are the last that are likely to buy them. Most customers are getting rid of hi fi because it doesn't sound particularly good, it's cost too much money, the wife can't use it and resents it's hideous appearance. Big TV owners want better sound. This is where the growth is, you're chasing a fast declining market and you and everyone on the Forum are fighting a rearguard action - hence the aggro!

Do you realise that our website has 300-400 uniques a DAY!

If you want that Forum to grow you need to attract higher spending, more intelligent contributors. Have a look at what the others have for contributors: Naim, Rega, and mostly S/H from Ebay. No one's going to be able to sell advertising off them.


I shall not be posting any more.

Kindest regards

Ashley


I guess that's that then! :closed2:

I however invite your comments. I'm not sure this is the best way for the MD of AVI to behave, or likely to engender interest in his products...

Marco.

Marco
22-03-2008, 14:15
For your entertainment (and no doubt amusement) here's a transcript of our last exchange. Don't say I'm not good to you! ;)

It shows Ashley quoting his original text (in 'arrows') and then my last reply to him. The bits in bold are his most recent reply in return.


>>Marco I hadn't mentioned ADM9s, all I'd done was answer inevitable questions<<

You certainly didn't 'go on' about them as much as jc but it was the way you were beginning to take over the forum with computer audio chat (and AVI products relating to this) that was the problem. This seemed to be the extent of your repertoire. The forum is not and never shall be just about computer audio, as there are many more methods of enjoying recorded music. We support traditional hi-fi as well as new technology, but not one at the expense of the other.

CD players sales have ceased and Mechs are no longer made, part of the exodus from hi fi has happened because everyone wants to integrate computers and the shops can't advise - it's a hot topic right now and one that would increase traffic.

>>JCBrum has a fan club and his extremely amusing comments would have increased traffic, despite offending Richard who is am ignorant, rude bore. It's not surprising he went bust!<<

What you have to realise is that increasing traffic on a forum is not the be all and end all. I'm interested in the quality and DIVERSITY of discussion, not all discussions revolving around computer audio and your hi-fi bias. To be honest, I'm much more interested in the niche side of things like valves and vinyl - I find this infinitely more interesting, even though ultimately it might not bring 'huge traffic' to the forum. The Art of Sound will always be about quality before quantity, and in general, bespoke before mainstream hi-fi.

I think you've probably already cornered the market in Valves and vinyl, that's all there is, because the correct output transformers can no longer be made, distortion is excessive and most can't bear the noise - AVI was built by Radford's last chief engineers and for years the quality control man at Carnhill who still supply us made the special Radford ones - it's a dead end. If you want diversity you've ruined your chances, you're going in the opposite direction.

>>If it's your Forum you should dictate the terms not ask the present residents what they think because they are an unrepresentative minority and if you want to grow you'll have to piss them off<<

Sorry, I disagree. A forum is only as good as the people in it. We can oversee things and shape its destiny to a degree, but ultimately the members are its life blood. And the bottom line is, I don't want to piss off people I like. I have many friends on the forum, Ashley, and quite a few were threatening to leave because of jc and you. No offence, but ultimately their friendship and contributions are more important to me than anything jc or you have to offer, hence why I made the decision to create a poll. It's about creating a community as much as a resource for information.

Bollocks! If you ask people what they want, they'll say it's what they've got because they have no imagination - you need to surprise and sometimes delight them and remember that people mostly can't cope with change - they'd have gotten used to us in a week and the smoke would have died down! Nobody needs a community of insecure, narrow minded bigots.

>>ADM9s would have helped you because so many people are interested in them, hate and resent them or whatever, it would have increased traffic. People enjoy the fights<<

Some people are interested in ADM9s, but not everyone, and certainly not the majority of our members. I have to be honest and say that I'm not particularly interested in the them myself. They're not really my thing. As for fights, we don't allow that on our forum and it's what makes us different to others where endless 'bun fights' and ill-feeling are often the order of the day! That's definitely not what we want on The Art of Sound.

Please yourself and as previous comments Many think record players are obselete as are CD's nearly, Valves aren't to be taken seriously and that cables make no difference!

>>As it is you're wedded to the ideas of a tiny minority and that's all you're ever going to get on the site. You should have the guts to allow controversy and to ignore the spineless losers who can't defend themselves in debate.

I'm not interested in talking to narrow little twerps who can have anything they don't like removed!!!
<<

That all sounds very bitter, Ashley, and quite insulting. Many of these "narrow little twerps" are my friends, so I resent your spiteful comments. I have to say that I find YOU very narrow-minded because all you want to do is talk about computer audio and rubbish traditional aspects of hi-fi such as valves and vinyl. I have no doubt whatsoever that traditional hi-fi methods, done well, offer better performance than anything computer audio has to offer, good though it is. Your bias and commercial interests are clouding reality.

I'm not the slightest bit bitter, i couldn't care a less, but it's depressing to see people who really don't understand how to improve the quality of sound reproducing equipment. I'll talk about anything and my comments about computers are because Apple is the driving force and PS3, not old hi fi, that's history just like film cameras, some were lovely and interesting to discuss but no one sensible bothers with them any more, they are adapting to digital and combining their photography with their hi fi - hence the interest in computers

I'm old and i see what happens to old people who don't keep up with things, they become boring and obstructive, presumably contributors here are younger and already becoming to old to be relevant! Good luck to then, I've a ninety five year old uncle who uses an iPod and a computer to plan his garden and book his holiday online. I have other friends in their seventies linked to an IBM mainframe so they can do stress calculations for large civil engineering contracts done by very famous Architects and others who are just active in the Royal Institution.

>>I shall not be posting any more<<

No problem, that's your decision. I think it proves categorically though that your time on The Art of Sound was all about promoting AVI and not about improving the content of the forum as a whole, otherwise you would have remained to contribute in other ways. I just wish you had been honest with me.

Bollocks, our customers are very different and I've seen no changes to website visits nor any relevant shift to Forum posters as customers. I'm certain it'll make no difference to us but that it may help you. We've more using our site than yours now.

My point is that I'm not being dictated to by people with no original ideas, who offer nothing except insults by way of discussion (and whining to you behind the scenes) and failures like Richard who clearly doesn't understand the basics.

You should have realised by now that I'm utterly honest; what you see is what you get.

I wouldn't have bothered answering but, for twenty years or so hi fi has been contracting and those that remain have their heads up their arses and can't see how the rest of the world sees them. All you've demonstrated is precisely why this is happening - there's no one with vision, imagination or even a basic understanding of what's needed.

Ash


There you have it!

This man clearly has a very narrow-minded, one-sided view on hi-fi, and has no interest in anything other than in his own beliefs. He clearly feels that he is 'right' and that everyone else is wrong.

Marco.

Lowrider
22-03-2008, 14:48
Thats the problem with forums, the assholes are never banned, the rest of the guys are too nice to do that...

On the other hand, guys that fight back are bannned, as scape goats, like I was from zerogain, because I stand against Stereo asshole...

After ruining the forums, bad guys get bored and go elsewhere do the same...

Steve Toy
22-03-2008, 16:39
Ashley's posts were cleverly worded in order that it was a clearly a case of "all roads lead to ADM9s" regardless of whether or not they were specifically mentioned.



If it's your Forum you should dictate the terms not ask the present residents what they think because they are an unrepresentative minority and if you want to grow you'll have to piss them off


Indeed it is our forum, that is it to say it belongs to the admin team and its broad membership base. Before the poll was conducted the admin were already 2:1 in favour of a restriction on indiscriminate ADM9 promotion. Our members just so happened to agree with us although we would have respected their wishes either way. I just have to laugh at Ashley's pathetic attempts to argue not just with the majority of members on this issue but the majority of admin as well!

Ashley,

You are quite correct, it is our forum. It is not yours to abuse.

However, the door to you remains open as is the decision taken by the poll.

WikiBoy
22-03-2008, 16:51
From Ashley-"despite offending Richard who is am ignorant, rude bore. It's not surprising he went bust!"

Well neither I nor NVA has ever been bust, I ceased trading for 5 years because I was so pissed off with wankers like him running the industry.

I am back for two reasons, to put the record straight about the industry and its rip off history (can you imagine any magazine publishing what I write:lol:) which is now possible because of forums that allow open debate, but then draw the line at being hi-jacked by marketing fanatics.

And to show how excellent NVA was and is - and hopefully to represent the many many ghost British audio companies dragged down by the mafia and politics during the 80s and 90s, and they *did* go bust so they cannot resurect into this, a more friendly environment.

I will in future do posts about them and promote the designers and the unique and interesting nature of their products, sadly now just occassionally seen at ebay - buy them, see what we had and what *you* as hi-fi enthusiast allowed to happen - don't ever allow it again - do not be told what to buy - Ashley is just the latest incarnation of this breed and even 5 years ago he would probably have got away with it - now the majority see the lies and the manipulation. You just didn't see it in the flat earth heyday!

Marco
12-04-2008, 19:19
Steve wrote:


However, the door to you remains open as is the decision taken by the poll.

Just to let everyone know, we will be welcoming back Ashley and JC who'll be advising members on computer audio-related discussions, and (where appropriate) AVI products relating to that :)

If you're not interested in computer audio or AVI then please don't participate in those discussions. We would like to keep subject matter constructive and strictly on-topic at all times.

Thanks in advance.

Marco.

jandl100
14-04-2008, 21:06
:(

I, for one, will not be welcoming them back.

Those guys are Bad News for any forum - they will abuse their position again, and it'll all end in tears.

Marco
14-04-2008, 21:23
Hi Jerry,

Your feelings are noted, and I know exactly what you mean.

However, I think everyone deserves a second chance, and both Ashley and JC have excellent knowledge of computer audio to offer members, so let's tap into that knowledge (for those interested) and see how it goes. Rest assured though that we have our eye on things ;)

Marco.

Ashley James
15-04-2008, 07:29
I don't have excellent knowledge of computer audio, JC does. I'm a hi fi manufacturer, a business partner of Martin Grindrod who's probably one of the most able engineers in hi fi and colleagues of a design team with a very broad experience of audio going back nearly forty years. I was with ATC for ten years before working full time for AVI in '95.

We use computers now because they're taking over from CD players now.

Marco
15-04-2008, 07:40
No problem, Ashley, but you seem reasonably clued-up on computer audio judging by your input before here and also elsewhere ;)

JC's input on this matter is of course also welcome, as is yours on any other matter where you feel that you can assist.

Marco.