View Full Version : Croft,Dac and Pre advice/help
Hello all,
I am new to this forum and new to Hi-Fi,this will proably show with my system :D
I also hope this is not posted in the wrong area! :/
My system is as follows :- Foobar to Audiolab Mdac,into croft series 7 (passive pre installed),into Wharfedale Diamond 122 speakers.
The problem is my system is very bright sounding. My wharfedale speakers as far as i am aware are not bright sounding,all reviews seem to state a neutral tone.They also as far as i can remember, did not sound bright with a solid state Creek 50a.I have ran other digital sources through the amp bypassing the Mdac and it is still bright,so my problem seems to be coming from the Croft/Speaker combo.As i write this everything seems to be pointing to the speakers!!
It has been mentioned on another forum that i may have a system mismatch with the Croft/Mdac and lack of a active Pre.
I am wondering if any of you have any experience with running a dac into a Croft via digital/passive pre and how it worked out,also if anybody has any thoughts on what may be causing my brightness.
Regards
Howard
awkwardbydesign
03-08-2014, 21:23
Hi Howard.
As they said on the other forum, ask someone local to bring over some different gear to compare. I now see you are in Bolton, which puts you in reach of a number of helpful people. Or you could take your stereo to them, your speakers are small enough to do that. Unlike some of the loonies here. (That will include me, of course.) :lol:
Are we talking bright as in not enough bass, bright as in too 'toppy' or bright as in a bit aggressive and harsh? I've known people use the term for all three so that is why I ask.
If it is the first then I would say it is the speakers. Otherwise I'd guess the problem lies elsewhere.
Are we talking bright as in not enough bass, bright as in too 'toppy' or bright as in a bit aggressive and harsh? I've known people use the term for all three so that is why I ask.
If it is the first then I would say it is the speakers. Otherwise I'd guess the problem lies elsewhere.
Bass and dynamics are excellent and I love how it all performs musically. It just has a bright tone across the whole spectrum. Like treble across the board.
Initially it sounded wonderful but after a hour or so I started to notice the brightness. Now I can't listen more than 5 minutes without noticing the brightness and frankly I can't enjoy it like this :(
Hi Howard.
As they said on the other forum, ask someone local to bring over some different gear to compare. I now see you are in Bolton, which puts you in reach of a number of helpful people. Or you could take your stereo to them, your speakers are small enough to do that. Unlike some of the loonies here. (That will include me, of course.) :lol:
Lol. Sounds like a good plan. Will feel
Slightly inferior turning up with my trusty wharfedales :d
Stratmangler
03-08-2014, 22:21
Which is newest to the system?
You say that things didn't sound bright with a Creek amp - is it what you were using before?
Which is newest to the system?
You say that things didn't sound bright with a Creek amp - is it what you were using before?
Come to think of it it could of been bright but not overly. I did not like something about it hence changing amps. Hard to say now come to think of it. Certainly looking like the speakers are at fault.
Croft amp is the newest addition.
H
Ninanina
03-08-2014, 22:47
Howard I don't know if it helps at all but I did have a Croft 7 Integrated once - Described as "configured as a Series 7 amplifier with a passive line stage", basically a Series 7... and to be honest I wasn't too impressed with it; to me it sounded 'thin'... which MIGHT be the same as you describing it as "bright".... just maybe...
I think Glenn is a superb amp designer, and I did once own a pre of his (the Vitale) which was superb.., however the Series 7 integrated just didn't cut it with me I'm afraid.... It's very tricky to explain but to me it was a bit lifeless sounding to me
Like I said that might not help you but it just might.... :D
Unfortunately Bolton is just too far from me here in Portsmouth otherwise I'd let you take a listen to your system but using my Audio Note Oto, which would at least rule in/out the Croft as the culprit... shame..... :(
Howard I don't know if it helps at all but I did have a Croft 7 Integrated once - Described as "configured as a Series 7 amplifier with a passive line stage", basically a Series 7... and to be honest I wasn't too impressed with it; to me it sounded 'thin'... which MIGHT be the same as you describing it as "bright".... just maybe...
I think Glenn is a superb amp designer, and I did once own a pre of his (the Vitale) which was superb.., however the Series 7 integrated just didn't cut it with me I'm afraid.... It's very tricky to explain but to me it was a bit lifeless sounding to me
Like I said that might not help you but it just might.... :D
Unfortunately Bolton is just too far from me here in Portsmouth otherwise I'd let you take a listen to your system but using my Audio Note Oto, which would at least rule in/out the Croft as the culprit... shame..... :(
You could be right. I don't know all the correct terminology. If I was describing something as thin sounding I would be meaning it has not a great deal of bass or full tone/body. Bass and dynamics are the best they have ever been.
H
Ninanina
03-08-2014, 23:27
You could be right. I don't know all the correct terminology. If I was describing something as thin sounding I would be meaning it has not a great deal of bass or full tone/body. Bass and dynamics are the best they have ever been.
H
It's such a pain isn't it when you can't get your system to behave how you want it too...?
I guess I could, at a push, describe the Croft integrated I had as bright... but certainly thin sounding... to me anyway..
Like I say Bolton is just too far to bring the Audio Note for you to try.... hopefully someone closer can come up with something for you to try just so you can rule the amp in/out of the equation...
As far as your Dac and speakers are concerned I cannot help with as I have no experience of either... sorry ;)
Hi Howard,
Glad you found your way in at last! :)
Anyway, why not contact Glenn and describe your problem to him? He's very approachable and he may suggest sending the amp to him for a slight adjustment to the circuit, which could solve matters.
One other thing you could do is replace the current production valve used (Electro Harmonix branded ECC83, I think) for a NOS Mullard ECC83. From experience, I think that would 'cheer things up' nicely and ameliorate much of the problem you're currently experiencing.
Marco.
Thanks Ninanina and Marco.
I will contact Glenn tomorrow and have a chop about with a cheap denon micro and it's speakers.
H
Nice one, Howard. I'm sure he'll approve of upgrading the stock tube for a nice Mullard. Tell him that I suggetsed it! Glenn knows me well.
Anyway, let us know how you get on :)
Marco.
......The problem is my system is very bright sounding. My wharfedale speakers as far as i am aware are not bright sounding,all reviews seem to state a neutral tone.They also as far as i can remember, did not sound bright with a solid state Creek 50a.I have ran other digital sources through the amp bypassing the Mdac and it is still bright,so my problem seems to be coming from the Croft/Speaker combo.As i write this everything seems to be pointing to the speakers!!....
Hey Howard, remember all new Croft amps on itself have a reversed phase. (OK when using a pre/power Croft combi)
So, as with my Phono Integrated, you will get a warmer and fuller sound by reversing the + and - speakerleads on both channels :rolleyes:
Good point, Han, and very true! :)
Marco.
Hey Howard, remember all new Croft amps on itself have a reversed phase. (OK when using a pre/power Croft combi)
So, as with my Phono Integrated, you will get a warmer and fuller sound by reversing the + and - speakerleads on both channels :rolleyes:
Thank you
This will be amazing if it works!
The only reason I have not tried this yet is because I have read it makes little difference by some.
Can't wait to finish work an try :)
Just had a a quick read. I must of skipped over the bit where Marco says the reversal is not subtle in his system.
I have it in my head that the intergrateds are reversed internally from some where!
Switched the polarity. Things do sound different. The first thing I have noticed is the bass is not as strong. Very tamed down. Maybe it could be more balanced. It still seems bright although this could be a nice sheen now. It's not fatiguing after 30 mins. Will try to listen more later. I have also emailed Glenn to confirm the polarity reversal is needed
Thanks for the hop so far
H
Sovereign
04-08-2014, 16:29
I used to have a heavily modified MDAC, I always thought it sounded great until I made a DDDAC and realised how edgy the MDAC was, now my ears are able to relax.
The Croft integrated does NOT sound like, or as good as, a 25.7 pairing IME and recent Diamonds appear to be mid-bass heavy I believe. Getting absolute phase the 'wrong' way usually takes some bass impact away.
The M-DAC is claimed by some to be treble detail led and my suggestion would be to find a Croft Micro 25 before changing the DAC for something not so 'wild.'
The Croft integrated does NOT sound like, or as good as, a 25.7 pairing IME and recent Diamonds appear to be mid-bass heavy I believe. Getting absolute phase the 'wrong' way usually takes some bass impact away.
The M-DAC is claimed by some to be treble detail led and my suggestion would be to find a Croft Micro 25 before changing the DAC for something not so 'wild.'
Glenn has confirmed the correct way is to reverse the polarity on the intergrated.
This does seem strange as to what you say,unless I am understanding you wrong,or I am understanding glenn wrong.
Reversing the polarity in the speakers has tamed my bass.
Running the system as I had it before ,plus to plus , minus to minus,had much stronger bass.
I will be having a good marathon listen tonight to see if it is fatiguing.
H
Hi Howard,
the amp inverts phase when connected as normal - it is 'correct' when the terminals are reversed - assuming the DAC doesn't invert phase. A lot depends on how phase is preserved during the recording and post treatment - some recordings will be a lot better than others.
Cheers,
Glenn.
Haselsh1
05-08-2014, 16:23
Back in 2009 I had a Croft pre/power combination into a pair of Dali Suite 2.8 loudspeakers and the sound was lovely and full and warm using stock valves. Numerous people commented on how warm and friendly it was when compared to their systems so I can only imagine that this has maybe got a tad to do with your M-DAC which is not known for its politeness.
StanleyB
05-08-2014, 19:32
I tend to use Croft amps at some stage during the development of my DACs. I find the combination to be dynamic and at the same time naturally analogue.
Sovereign
14-08-2014, 21:27
Just bought a Croft pre amp and sat down to listen to it in place of my current pre amp. Bugger me it's good!
kininigin
17-08-2014, 07:28
Not too shabby are they! Which model did you go for? I'm not one for trying loads of different kit,so the croft will be with me for a very long time i suspect! I have always used one of Stans dacs with it also,knowing that both Glen and Stan use each others equipment to test,seems to have resulted in a great combination to my ears at least!
Not too shabby are they! Which model did you go for? I'm not one for trying loads of different kit,so the croft will be with me for a very long time i suspect! I have always used one of Stans dacs with it also,knowing that both Glen and Stan use each others equipment to test,seems to have resulted in a great combination to my ears at least!
+1 I run a Caiman 2 into a Croft 25R/4S with wonderful results. I not infrequently get an itch to change the 4S for a "newer" power amp but the sound is so good I just can never bring myself to do it. The 4s has been upgraded/serviced by Glenn to run TungSol KT120's which make it sound "better" than it did with 6550A's although the Svets I keep as spares sound darn good. As Marco says changing valves has an enormous effect on sound/tone. After many years of tube rolling I have settled on NOS Siemens Halske's in the 25R for line, phono and power stages.
Sorry for the thread drift but the Crofts really are good and stunning value.
Steve
Eagle owl
17-08-2014, 07:52
I bought a Croft Micro 25 R pre and series 7 power some weeks ago and I'm very happy with the sound. Very plain metal black boxes with magic inside them. :) :cool:
I bought a Croft Micro 25 R pre and series 7 power some weeks ago and I'm very happy with the sound. Very plain metal black boxes with magic inside them. :) :cool:
Total magic Geoff! I have the same combination, 25R and Series 7 and have been extremely impressed with mine especially with a judicious choice of NOS valves.
Canetoad
17-08-2014, 10:01
I have the same combination and am very pleased with it. :)
I tend to use Croft amps at some stage during the development of my DACs. I find the combination to be dynamic and at the same time naturally analogue.
I changed my speakers to tannoy DC6 and speaker cable,everything is tonally balanced now.
Using the mdac as a pre I have some dynamics but I do not like the overall sound.
Putting the mdac at full volume through the croft passive sounds beautiful but mellow and a loss of dynamics.
Would your dacs be a good match to run at full volume through a croft integrated?
It is looking more likely I need a active pre to achieve the sound I am after unless I can find a dac that matches up well.
Sorry for dragging this old thread up but certain keywords on Google will bring this up and I do not want any negativity towards certain pieces of equipment etc.
I have finally resolved my problem. It was a a gain issue. Dropping the lower gain ECC82 in the Croft sorted everything out. I now have wonderful bass tones and in your face dynamics. Quite a newbie issue I am sure hah. It only took my 6 months to figure out. Part and parcel my own fault for buying 5 valves and messing about rolling and decideing if the digital pre should be on or off on the mdac.
I could not be more happy with it at the moment. Roll on that harbeths!
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