London Decca Super Gold on modified 1210M5G? [Archive]

ChrisKemp

30-07-2014, 22:39

I'm very pleased with the sound of my system now and the Denon DL-103R is just broken in. Right now I'm listening to a fantastic quality LP; Hugh Masekela "Hope" 45 RPM. It's by far my best LP.

But I'm already thinking about my next/ second cartridge. I have been reading alot of rave reviews of the London Decca Super Gold. As I say I just love the dynamics and the realism of the DL-103R, but I wonder if the Decca would be an upgrade or just more of the same? I have the original Techy arm with Cardas rewire and KAB Fluid Damper.

Would the London Decca Super Gold give me more realism and even more dynamics than the DL-103R? Will my arm be a good match with the Decca?

Anyone that has any experience with a new Decca and modified Technics is welcome to share and enlighten me:)

Barry

30-07-2014, 23:04

I have had a fair amount of experience of the Decca Mk V and VI models (over thirty years). These are not the 'Super' incarnations, and very much suffer the appalling workmanship and sample-to-sample variation of the Deccas at the time. But my comments may be of some interest.

To my mind the Decca cartridge design is like no other: it presents a unique and singular presentation of what is on the record that no other cartridge can display. The sense of presence and 'attack' is quite unique, so to is the sense of "fun" (sorry, not a well-defined terminology!), or enjoyment that Deccas can impart. But the price you have to pay is in the extraordinary care with cartridge installation and loading (as well as choice in phonostage); even then, the final result is not the most tonally 'accurate', nor will present the most accurate soundstage, but the 'focus' is wonderful.

Should a Decca replace your Denon? Well that is a very difficult question! I use a variety of quality moving-coil cartridges (EMT, Ortofon and Denon (DL103)), and yet such is the respect and appreciation I have for Decca cartridges, that I always have one set up, in parallel with the others mentioned. It's that good and that unique, as well as being that frustrating!

Sorry - not a definative answer by any means, and perhaps not what you were expecting; but that's the Deccas for you.

[The following might be of interest to you: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?7107-Being-reminded-once-again-of-the-Decca-‘magic’&highlight=Decca+cartridge]

ChrisKemp

31-07-2014, 22:37

Thank you Barry. I appriciate your detailed answer:) I have only justed three different MC cartridges. Started with Ortofon Rondo Red. Fine cartridge, but not much fun (as you put it). To me it is important that music is fun to listen to. I have been to so many hifi shows, with great hifi sound but also boring.

When I bought the DL-103 I was so impressed that I sold it before it had settled in and bought a DL-103R. I calculated the frequency number for DL-103R and my arm and landed on 10,1 hz, and with the KAB Fluid Damper, it sound so dynamic with great highs and midrange.

But all the reviews of the Decca Super Gold is so fantastic that it caught my interest. That is why I wonder what to expect when going from DL-103R to Decca Super Gold.

Thanks for the link!!

DSJR

01-08-2014, 08:08

the final result is not the most tonally 'accurate', nor will present the most accurate soundstage, but the 'focus' is wonderful.

[The following might be of interest to you: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?7107-Being-reminded-once-again-of-the-Decca-‘magic’&highlight=Decca+cartridge]

Barry, I have to challenge this statement... How do you know what 'accurate' is in this instance? I have compared my own 'podded Microscanner to copy-master tapes and I can assure you that it is indeed extremely accurate and 'truthful' to them. Admittedly, the Microscanner lacks the 'zing' of lesser models, but most other cartridges in comparison exhibit a false warmth, weght and 'halo' around the soundstage that simply isn't there in the original recording, let alone the band-limited vinyl cuts I assure you. Whether you LIKE this 'raw' presentation is another matter entirely.

Looking back in my old Hifi Choice cartridge tests, most of the pickups with a falling response seemed to be liked, whereas all the flatter ones gained censure it seems (I'm generalising). Colloms had vested interests in keeping the then burgeoning audiophool market happy and what he said in private wasn't always what he said in print (Kessler is another one).

Decca cartridges are very frail, even now and can be easily damaged. Repairs aren't too expensive fortunately, but these cartridges are NOT tough as old boots as the 103 is. They also need quite specific tonearm requirements and the soft plastic mounts in the old London V based models are pretty rubbish IME. Get one set up right though (no non-standard loading is necessary if a neutral response is the requirement, as dropping the input impedance dulls the response) and only a handful of more expensive moving coils will offer as much or more! (I'm citing the mid ZYX models and the wild Rega Apheta as examples I've compared to a Super Gold)

Barry

01-08-2014, 14:40

Dave,

My comments were really impressions I have of the Decca sound. Compared with other cartridges, I do feel the Deccas create a shallower soundstage. The lack of tonal "accuracy" is a suspicion of mine: it's only a theory, but I do wonder if the excitement (and "fun") of the Decca might be due to the elevated treble response, though the mid band is 'ruler flat'.

Were the master tapes you used, copies of master tapes made by Decca?

I have done experiments with loading, and dependent on the sample, a lower than recommended loading of 33K can sometimes be beneficial (as it seems to tame the 'lively' top end).

The compliant plastic mount, despite appearances, was a deliberate design feature by Decca engineers. In having virtually no vertical compliance, the cartridge would put a lot of mechanical energy into the arm and hence could excite various arm modes. The compliant mounting was a way of absorbing this excess energy: indeed, the Decca is the only cartridge that benefits from a less than rigid mounting, if you do not use an arm with pivot damping.

Decca cartridge are unique, sound unique and are a law unto themselves. In the past the appalling and shoddy workmanship lead to enormous sample-to-sample variation; and perhaps because of it, to a lot of the Decca myths. Yes they are delicate, but I have yet to have one fail on me. No two sound identical, and you do need to spend great care in setting them up.

Despite all their shortcomings and idiosyncrasies, I find the Decca sound so infectious that I always have one set up on one of my decks. That's not to say it is used in preference to more conventional electrodynamic cartridges (EMT, Ortofon, Denon). I like to have the option to try different presentations.

You are not the only person who has likened the attack and presence of the ZYX to that of the Decca. I must try one someday.

DSJR

01-08-2014, 22:04

Treble rise? You mean the ruler flat response to 10k or so, followed by a variable 'squiggle' depending on model and sample ? :lol:

I am fully aware of the severe compliance differences laterally and vertically, but the plastic mount doesn't really work too well IMO. Having a solid block sort-of holding the body together does far better for me and enabled me to use mine for a while in the R200 on the TD125 (Nagaoka solid headshell with fancy wires). The lateral 'shimmy' when stylus meets record was alarming though and I feared for the tie-wire... All a question of matching and sadly, I'll never be able to afford the NAS stabilised unipivots arms that suited the Decca's so beautifully.

The tapes I had were a couple of Genesis tracks (from And Then There Were Three), a 7.5IPS dub of Tubular Bells pt1, a Pierre Moelen's Gong extract (Leave It Open) and other odds and sods, including a couple of favourite radio episodes, the CD's of which having been boosted in the treble, sadly (the originals sound a little dry again and appear to lack some 'sparkle.' I no longer have them as they went to the Hifi museum of my mate, along with my B77mk2 HS-IEC and Nakamichi collection over the years...... My mate complained when one of the BBC masters using yellow-backed Scotch tape shed some backing all over his new pristine pressure rollers (I won't go any further except to say his Revox collection needed attention because of disuse rather than too much use!!!)

Nah, I'm a dyed in the wool longtime fan of Decca's, but happily accept they won't always work at all and need very precise matching of arm and phono stage (plenty of headroom).

ChrisKemp

06-08-2014, 08:47

The London Deccas sure are fascinating:)

DSJR

06-08-2014, 11:23

They're fascinating, sometimes an absolute pain in the bum (the failure [buzzing on guitar and piano notes] of mine contributing to the sale of the NAS Mentor twenty years ago) but as I've said hundreds of times, get one set right and used with care, the sound is as close to the master cut as its possible to get - IMO, totally lacking the euphonic nature of 'traditional' vinyl playback in general.

One good thing for me - my Microscanner was sidelined in disgrace for thirteen years until I finally stumped up a very fair sum for a repair (new lateral coil and re-glued magnet), returning my pride and joy to full working order :)

Happy times in the R200 on the TD125, tracking at a carefully measured 1.6g as recommended by the re-tippers

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/DSCF1438.jpg (http://s132.photobucket.com/user/DSJR_photos/media/DSCF1438.jpg.html)

Something to make you cringe - London inners

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/london_inner_pic.jpg (http://s132.photobucket.com/user/DSJR_photos/media/london_inner_pic.jpg.html)

The magic bit - the armature under magnification -

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/London_armature_pic.jpg (http://s132.photobucket.com/user/DSJR_photos/media/London_armature_pic.jpg.html)

The 100lb Mentor, sitting on a concrete slab coach-bolted onto the wall, which thankfully seemed to be made of hard, engineering grade bricks...

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/MentorDecca.jpg (http://s132.photobucket.com/user/DSJR_photos/media/MentorDecca.jpg.html)

ChrisKemp

06-08-2014, 11:30

Great info and photos! But as I understand, the new London Decca Super Gold are easier and better than the old...?

DSJR

06-08-2014, 11:45

Hifi dave sold two in recent times, a Super Gold and a Jubilee. BOTH failed under warranty he tells me :( I think it's a learning curve with these things ;)

ChrisKemp

06-08-2014, 11:50

Maybe I´m better off sticking with my Denon DL-103R:)

fiddlemaker

06-08-2014, 13:59

The Black Adder

06-08-2014, 14:12

I'd love to try one... I keep saying this, I know... but one day.

And yes, I would start with the blue too. I think Glenn Croft uses a blue... could be wrong though.

Jimbo

06-08-2014, 14:13

I'm a fairly recent convert.
Decca Blue with original conical stylus, checked over and "podded" by John Wright. Looks cool. Like a stealth bomber.
Best vinyl sound I have ever heard by a country mile.
Arm matching and alignment critical. Once that is sorted out, performs wonderfully on all types of music.
In the 6 months or so since I've had it I've bought more records than in any other 6 month period of my life, and the CD player has never been switched on.

Hi John, I had a Decca Blue some years back which I used with a 301/Croft Micro/Leak Stereo 20 and I must admit it was a superb sound. Once heard never forgotten. Only problem was setting them up and stopping the Tin can from vibrating, I had a lump of Blue tac on mine:lol:

Devastating speed and sound. Will be returning to one sometime in the near future. Cant wait to hear what it will sound like on my VPI with the new Croft amps.

DSJR

12-08-2014, 10:13

My first Decca was a Blue in totally stock flexi-bracket form (back in the mid 70's, no tweaks for it) and I used it in my much missed Dual 1229. A bit 'twangy' up top, but no issues with tracking at all and a baptism of fire into the joys of Decca ownership. A properly tamed Decca *should* be capable of being used alongside a good CD player, NOT instead of ;) although I know exactly what you're saying. Vinyl's cheap on the whole and a good working Decca does seem to get the very best out of this medium IMO :lol:

I wanted 'my' Quad 33/303 back from boxed exile. I'm now being tempted to get the TD125 back instead and re-fit the R200/Decca to it. Lovely times.

ChrisKemp

12-08-2014, 10:15

I have sought info on so many cartridges now, but I still think the most exciting and right cartridge for me will be the Decca Super Gold w/ DeccaPod. Expensive yes, but it seems it has the sound I crave for! I want prat, fun and toe tapping vinyl play with the best midrange:)

I have read that the Jelco 750D will be a good match. I'm going to buy the IsoKinetik Silver Melody SM750, that is a better arm than the standard 750D. But what about headshell? Do I use the standard headshell or others? I see some use this one

http://www.needledoctor.com/Clearaudio-Stability-Titanium-Headshell

And what about cleaning the stylus? I just bought an Onzow Zerodust that to a fantastic job of cleaning my DL-103R. The diamond is super clean. Can I use the Onzow on the Decca if I'm careful?

I might buy from Divine Audio, that also do service and retip on the Decca. It's important for me that I buy from someone that has the knowledge and service about what they sell. Anyone know them?

Any help with these questions would be great:)

ChrisKemp

12-08-2014, 11:34

Even if this is not the best youtube clip, I can just hear how the Decca signature shines and can only imagine how it will sound in real...
http://youtu.be/Qdji6_H14aQ

ChrisKemp

12-08-2014, 11:52

Or this clip:

http://youtu.be/Cdc9Y8b5YWw

walpurgis

12-08-2014, 11:55

Hi John, I had a Decca Blue some years back which I used with a 301/Croft Micro/Leak Stereo 20 and I must admit it was a superb sound. Once heard never forgotten. Only problem was setting them up and stopping the Tin can from vibrating, I had a lump of Blue tac on mine:lol:.

Just like me. My Blue was in a fluid damped Decca International arm on a TD150. My first properly serious deck as it goes. The Decca Blue was occasionally swapped over for an ADC 10E Mk.IV, which was also superb (still got a couple). I also used the Blutak blob on top of the Decca.

Having had experience of the DL-103, Deccas and currently ZYXs, I'll be sticking with ZYX MCs. As mentioned they have speed, they also have tremendous transparency and detail, fine bass and a huge ambience.

Jimbo

12-08-2014, 12:04

I'd love to try one... I keep saying this, I know... but one day.

And yes, I would start with the blue too. I think Glenn Croft uses a blue... could be wrong though.

Hi Joe,

I have sorted the valves I think - got some NOS Teslas on the way:)

Glenn did use a Decca Blue - he recommended I try one 30 years ago when I was buying hifi at Warstones HIFI in wolverhampton.

He also recommended the rest of the system I used way back then which consisted of a Croft Micro (Glenns original £125 model), modified Leak Stereo 20 (Glenns modification) and a Garrard 301. This I used with the speakers I still have now (Spendor SP2 MK1)

That was a great system but unfortunately I sold the lot and went into CD - what a mistake!

I am now slowly creeping back to a similar system and intend to get another Decca cartridge but not sure which one yet although I know where there is a beauty I can lay my hands on:eyebrows:

Jimbo

12-08-2014, 12:07

Just like me. My Blue was in a fluid damped Decca International arm on a TD150. My first properly serious deck as it goes. The Decca Blue was occasionally swapped over for an ADC 10E Mk.IV, which was also superb (still got a couple). I also used the Blutak blob on top of the Decca.

Having had experience of the DL-103, Deccas and currently ZYXs, I'll be sticking with ZYX MCs. As mentioned they have speed, they also have tremendous transparency and detail, fine bass and a huge ambience.

The ZYX MC sounds interesting Geoff however I would need to buy Firebottles phono stage to run that with my system which makes it an expensive proposition. Would love to hear one if you suggest it has some of the Decca qualities.

ChrisKemp

24-11-2014, 23:50

Yes. Finally I got my London Decca Super Gold with DeccaPod today! Fantastic first impression:)

DSJR

25-11-2014, 09:36

ChrisKemp

25-11-2014, 17:21

Treat it with GREAT care and expect a possible failure in due course (they are repairable if this happens). That's the 'hell' of Decca ownership. As for sonics? It's raw, but can sound as close to master tape as the cutting engineer allowed. Even the 'shallow' depth and dry bass aspects aren't as 'wrong' as some would have you believe, as I feel that many so called 'exotic' cartridges exaggerate this aspect as audiophools like it...

One day, I'll return to a deck able to properly take my Gold Microscanner. In the old Mentor, it was awesome :)
It may be a stupid question, but when you say "treat it with great care"; what do you mean? I always keep my records clean with Gruv Glide and I brush it off before each play. It´s installed as good as I know how to. Is it anything more I should do? I would like to have my Decca for a long time before service:)

With my Ortofon 2M Black I use the Onzow Zerodust. What a fantastic stylus cleaner! Removes every single bit of dirt. Can I use the Zerodust with my Decca, you think?

hifi_dave

25-11-2014, 17:27

I wouldn't use the Zerodust for fear of the tie wire getting imbedded in it.

ChrisKemp

25-11-2014, 18:20

Ok I see. Hm, too bad, because the ZeroDust is so good...

ChrisKemp

25-11-2014, 19:11

With the Jelco 750D arm and my Decca Super Gold, what should be the overhang and what protractor should I use??

ChrisKemp

14-12-2014, 14:01

ChrisKemp

14-12-2014, 14:05

http://www.hifisentralen.no/forumet/attachments/vinylavdelingen/293501d1417860503-technics-sl-1210-image.jpg

Barry

15-12-2014, 15:31

With the Jelco 750D arm and my Decca Super Gold, what should be the overhang and what protractor should I use??

Jelco use an arm geometry that is unique - it does follows neither Baerwald, Loefgren nor Stevenson.

The overhang is 15mm, the offset angle 22 degree and the two radial null-points are at 59.1mm and 112.5mm. The arm pivot to TT spigot distance is 214mm.

ChrisKemp

15-12-2014, 16:00

Thanks. I've read elsewere that the 750D does not have overhang at 15mm, but more like 18 mm. I find i impossible to use any protractor due to the "missing" cantilever. So I just meassured 18mm overhang with a ruler. It sounds great and I have no IGD. VTF i set to 1,8g. Or am I missing something herer? Do I have to angle the Decca in the headshell? Should'nt the cartridge be square in the hadshell??

Barry

15-12-2014, 16:26

The overhang I quoted is taken from Jelco's own specification: https://www.usahifi.com/products/jelco-750d-9-tonearm.

I would take an old alignment protractor and mark on it the null-radii at 59mm and 112.5mm, and use these to set up the cartridge. Yes you are right, the cartridge ought to be square in the headshell, but the important thing is it ought to be square to any radial line at both the null-point radii.

Agree, with the lack of a conventional cantilever (one of the reasons Deccas sound the way they do) cartridge set up can be tricky. But do persevere: squat down and view the stylus from the side to ensure it is located at each null-radius in turn.

Deccas require extraordinary care in setting up: VTA is especially important - but if you do, you will be rewarded with a 'sound' that is quite unique, beguiling and not approached by many other cartridges. Get it wrong and you will have a sound that is fatiguing, if not headache producing!

Good luck

ChrisKemp

15-12-2014, 17:02

I've read that Jelco's own paper was wrong saying 15mm overhang and that it should be closer to 18mm. Many forums covered the faulty data from Jelco. I don't know, I just tell you what I ha e read.

The VTA adjustmen I have used a bubble water that I place on top of the headshell. Then I adjust so the VTA and the azimuth is spot on.

I used the Technics gauge as a start. It meassures 15mm overhang or 52mm from bottom to diamond. So if it is more correct with an overhang of 18mm I meassured 55mm from bottom of headshell to the diamond. Then I have 18mm overhang. The sound is very good as of now. Do I really need to do it all over again with a protractor?

Barry

15-12-2014, 18:11

DSJR

15-12-2014, 18:17

The 59mm or more often 60mm inner null point is the most important I feel, as tracing distortion is far lower at the beginning of side anyway and not so critical. Barry's right about arm height though and Decca's I've used and set up over the years seem to do the opposite to conventional ones - too low at the back and the sound sharpens I seem to remember. Can't remember if they all track at 1.6g or so, but this seems to be optimum for the later models with higher lateral compliance - Hifi Choice (Paul Messenger used 1.3g and this was slightly too low - my Gold Microscanner specifically states 1.6g).

ChrisKemp

15-12-2014, 20:29

Are you able to cite any of these forum discussions?

If it is true the actual overhang is 18mm and not 15mm (as quoted by vinylengine), that could put doubts on the value of the offset angle (quoted as being 22 degree).

Given the true overhang and the true offset angle, the two null-radii can be calculated. http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?20109-Tonearm-alignment
There are several places that states that the Jelco site is wrong. I found also many forums that said the same.

But, if my set up was off, I guess I would hear it, right? The sound now is fantastic. And that is compared to the already great Ortofon 2M Black.

Barry

16-12-2014, 10:25

I did find some web-chat expressing doubts about the veracity of Jelco's quoted figures.

Assuming the standard IEC dimensions for the innermost and outermost radii for a 12" record, you can arrange for your arm/cartridge to conform to the Baerwald geometry if you set the overhang to 18.14mm and offset angle to 24.1 degree. This would place the null-radii at 66mm and 121.9mm; radii that are marked on virtually all alignment protractors.

To get the cartridge to be square to a radial line at both of the null-points will require you to slew the cartridge slightly in the headshell. The angle correction is small and ought to be achievable with the slotted cartridge fixing slots of the headshell that comes with the Jelco arm.

From your description it would seem you have already aligned the cartridge correctly. :)

ChrisKemp

16-12-2014, 22:44

From your description it would seem you have already aligned the cartridge correctly. :)

That is good to know:)

topoxforddoc

31-12-2014, 18:23

Chris,

I have been using Deccas since the late 70s. Keep your vinyl fastidiously clean. I wet clean every LP, new or used, and use a new liner (if the LP is old). That way, you'll find that you don't need the zerodust. I have the vinyl passion version of the zerodust, but virtually never have to use it. I can say that I have used the VP product intermittently with my Deccas now for about 3 years - no problem with the tie wire.

ChrisKemp

01-01-2015, 19:28

Thank you. I just bought an Okki Nokki cleaner:)

topoxforddoc

01-01-2015, 20:06

Thank you. I just bought an Okki Nokki cleaner:)

Chris, let us know your thoughts, once you've played a couple of cleaned LPs. Seriously, you just won't need to clean the stylus, and there will be no build up of fluff under the body.

Andrei

01-01-2015, 22:11

Thank you. I just bought an Okki Nokki cleaner:)
Good move Chris. I went for the 'SpinClean' which is pretty much the same thing. What the SpinClean lacks however is a drying rack, so I ended up buying an Okki Nokki drying rack separately. So now what I do is count the number of spaces in the Okki Nokki drying rack, put that number of LPs aside, set up a table and chair in front of my Hi-Fi, put on some sounds and do my chores!

ChrisKemp

26-01-2015, 08:30

Hi you all:)

Just a quick feedback after the London Decca Super Gold is run in:
This is the best sound I´ve ever heard. In the beginning it was close to the 2M Black, but now the London is so much better in every way. And the dynamics:eyebrows: I just bought a brand new Gd Audio DAC with the Sabre DAC referense chip (DSD/DXD). I played Leonard Cohen "The Waltz" through the DAC from my Mac and the sound was superb! Then I played the same song on the original vinyl LP with the Super Gold and it simply blew the digital version away:eek: With the London Decca the voice was much more alive and extended. It was really like Cohen was standing right in front of me. The sound is so fast and tight, but also refined when needed to...

Also I think the combo with the modified 1210M5G and the London Decca Super Gold is a great match. Will I ever have a different cartridge again? I don´t know. The only other cartridge I would like to have is an Ortofon SPU, but I will always have a Decca.