View Full Version : WAF... What's That All About?!
Moderators note... thread split from the Epping TT Bake Off thread (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3273&page=5), since the turn of discussion seemed to merit it's own little feature!
Marco, ignoring NVA's old speakers for a minute, I think it fair to say that modern speakers have to live in real world small living rooms, up to the wall and maybe even in corners. the move towards WAF small drivers in narrow enclosures hasn't helped.
What has also been a thing with the uninitiated is the "loudness switch" balance, brought to its ultimate by Pro-Ac in many of their models. A boom and thud in the bass, coupled with a sting and fizz in the treble makes for an initially great first listen for many - why do you think Bose is so popular?
RD's speakers will be as crossover-less as possible and tonal abberations will be secondary to the hair-raising speed and lack of smear they should reproduce. remember that other simple designs like the Epos Es14's actually had a VERY carefully designed bass unit that was initially voiced for open-space mounting and then changed for the Linn/Naim market in which they were so successful. It's credit to Robin Marshall that he knew what to do to make the changes (as Tannoy have done over the decades with the DC concept - I bet you wouldn't care much for the screaming Dimension models I heard a few years ago - OUCH!!!!!!!
Hi Dave,
Marco, ignoring NVA's old speakers for a minute, I think it fair to say that modern speakers have to live in real world small living rooms, up to the wall and maybe even in corners. the move towards WAF small drivers in narrow enclosures hasn't helped.
Educate me here... When did this "move towards WAF" occur and why? Ok, modern new-build 'doll houses' (as I call them) in housing estates can be quite small, but there are still plenty of people today living in older houses with high ceilings, etc, where apparently this WAF thing still occurs, so why weren't proper-sized speakers a problem for people (specifically 'other arfs') in the 50s, 60s and 70s, as they seem to be now? Many people are still essentially living in the same types of houses :confused:
I think too many men nowadays are pussies and are just under the thumb!! ;)
What has also been a thing with the uninitiated is the "loudness switch" balance, brought to its ultimate by Pro-Ac in many of their models. A boom and thud in the bass, coupled with a sting and fizz in the treble makes for an initially great first listen for many - why do you think Bose is so popular?
It's absolutely dreadful... I guess people were just much more discerning at one time. This lowering of standards in everything (not just audio) is a major bugbear of mine.
I bet you wouldn't care much for the screaming Dimension models I heard a few years ago - OUCH!!!!!!!
No they were definitely not my cup of tea. The more I hear vintage Tannoys in proper cabinets and with modern crossovers, the more I realise that this is where it's at, Tannoy-wise, and pretty much speaker-wise in general, too! :eyebrows:
Marco.
The Grand Wazoo
20-07-2009, 00:26
Hi Dave,
Educate me here... When did this "move towards WAF" occur and why? Ok, modern new-build 'doll houses' (as I call them) in housing estates can be quite small, but there are still plenty of people today living in older houses with high ceilings, etc, where apparently this WAF thing still occurs, so why weren't proper-sized speakers a problem for people (specifically 'other arfs') in the 50s, 60s and 70s, as they seem to be now? Many people are still essentially living in the same types of houses :confused:
I think too many men nowadays are pussies and are just under the thumb!! ;)
It's absolutely dreadful... I guess people were just much more discerning at one time. This lowering of standards in everything (not just audio) is a major bugbear of mine.
No they were definitely not my cup of tea. The more I hear vintage Tannoys in proper cabinets and with modern crossovers, the more I realise that this is where it's at, Tannoy-wise, and pretty much speaker-wise in general, too! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Marco,
Speaking as the owner of gear that you have previously described as:
I dig all your gear, as it's 'proper', if you know what I mean: no pee-soaked weenie-boy WAF pleasing shit I think it may have a lot to do with the erosion over the years of the idea that if you own a hi-fi system then you've 'made it' in social & economic terms.
To expand a little: in the past (& when your Tannoys were current) if you owned a proper hi-fi, then you were 'it'. So speakers were designed to be seen, or rather, the aesthetics were waaaay down the list of priorities in a designer's mind. If you had the cash to buy the gear, then it was a very important part of your priorities, so aesthetics mattered little to you, too.
Nowadays most people don't want anything other than 'pee-soaked weenie-boy WAF pleasing shit'. The likes of Lawrence Lewellyn Bowen should've been wacked over the head with a pastel tone painted 4'x8' sheet of MDF as soon as his wavy cuffs appeared in the delivery room!!
Hi-fi just isn't on the list of peoples desirable items anymore. Small is good. Cheap is good - So what if you own stereo gear that you never listen to - you can always listen to your iPod can't you? After all, that's small, new and digital, so it must be good.
Beechwoods
20-07-2009, 04:58
There's a lot to be said for this, Chris - the 70's was the decade where hi-fi as status symbol really took off, pretty much dying in the mid-80's on Black Wednesday :) but there's also another thing going on. That is the democratisation of 'hi-fi' ownership.
I think we look back on a golden age when hi-fi was the interest of a few; either knowledgeable and adept DIY'ers or willing to prioritise their disposable income to buy proper hi-fi gear that was genuinely well-made. Either way, pre-mid-1970 people with 'hi-fi' tended to be somewhat passionate about that gear!
These days everyone can afford to buy audio equipment, there's nothing special about owning it, and you don't need to be a hi-fi nut to go out and get it. A lot of the stuff you see on the high-street settles for the lowest common denominator. People haven't grown up hearing good kit, and so have no reference point. Anyway, this has nothing to do with the thread in hand, but it's an interesting discussion nonetheless. Perhaps a subject for a thread of it's own?
Good idea chaps. Perhaps one of you would like to start the ball rolling? :)
One thing I'd like is suggestions as to how and why 'WAF' was born; specifically what I'm getting at is why it is known as wife acceptability factor and not 'married couple' or 'partners', or whatever, 'acceptability factor'?
I mean, why should it be all down to what the woman decides - is it not the man's house or lounge with which to decide what goes in there just as much as the woman's?? :scratch:
I've never subscribed to this 'she who must be obeyed' nonsense; and neither has my wife! ;)
We make joint decisions on everything, which is how it should be.
Marco.
hifi_dave
20-07-2009, 13:34
We make decisions here, though I must confess that my Wife, being an Interior Designer, does have far more good taste than I do. She has always been very tolerant of my Hi-Fi in the house. However, this isn't the case in every household.
I think the rot started back in the early 90's and did coincide with the slide in popularity of the 'serious' Hi-Fi system. It is only the true enthusiast or the enthusiast with a separate listening room who will buy a large speaker now and when I say 'large' I mean anything bigger than a Rega RS3, Neat Motive-2, Spendor S5e etc. These are considered to be borderline HUGE.
In my last shop, we had a separate 'speaker room' where we stored and displayed our demo speakers. Saturday was always a prime day for customers to come in with the Wife to look at speakers. I lost count of the number of times we had to leave the room whilst an argument ensued about the size and/or finish of the proposed speakers. 'You're not having those in the house' came the screech when the Wife clapped eyes on something no bigger than an LS3/5a, no matter how beautiful they looked. As for using stands with said speakers - well, you've got to be joking !!!
What invariably happened was that the couple, still arguing, would exit in search of the nearest Bose dealer for some of those squitty plastic boxes to stick on the wall, even though a sub-woof and cables had to be accommodated. Such is the power of marketing.
Tis sad but true. Very few men will go against the Wife when she puts her foot down and bans anything larger than a shoebox.:doh:
Twenty odd years ago, I was stunned when "couples" came in to buy a HiFi and *she* was the one to dictate what went where in *her* house. I couldn't understand it at all. By the time that my last audio employer shut it's doors for the last time, buying anything but the latest Linn/Naim mega thousand quid upgrade was done by couples and ifnotin the B&O class, visuals were very important (or at least the racks the stuff went in - Stands Unique was very popular, as was the discreet Something Solid range at that time)and the gear sounded ok in them too I thought.
Marco, we fella's are not "pussy's" at all. We just care enough about our other half's opinions to take notice (and have an easier life because of it;))
aquapiranha
20-07-2009, 18:22
I would have thought women shouldn't be out of the kitchen long enough to have an opinion on the hifi??
How thouroughly modern of you all, you'll be giving them the vote next!
;-)
Surely small speakers have more to do with the 1980s Flat Earth 'buy an LP12, a Naim Nait and some Kans' mantra than WAF?
Before that, mega speakers were the preserve of a few enthusiasts; most people had a radiogram with built--in speakers!
One thing I'd like is suggestions as to how and why 'WAF' was born; specifically what I'm getting at is why it is known as wife acceptability factor and not 'married couple' or 'partners', or whatever, 'acceptability factor'?
I mean, why should it be all down to what the woman decides - is it not the man's house or lounge with which to decide what goes in there just as much as the woman's?? :scratch:
We make joint decisions on everything, which is how it should be.
Marco.
Hi Marco,
Tell me: -
Has the situation NEVER arisen in your household, not specifically limited to matters hi-fi, where you and your wife just could not agree?
If so, how was the situation resolved?
If not, hang on tight because it will sooner or later, unless one or t'other of you is the sort that would do anything to avoid an argument - there are such people I am told but I haven't met many :lol: .
Regarding matters hi-fi, not every one has a 'private' listening room into which the other half never ventures or in which they just don't care about what happens - most of us (that have partners/wives) have to use the rooms available for multiple applications - for instance my 'listening room' doubles(?) as viewing room, reading room, relaxing room, power-napping room and drinking room, to name but a few, not all mutually exclusive but sometimes difficult to accomodate at the same time. So ..... given the fact that t'other half will spend as much time as we in our listening rooms pursuing their non-hifi interests it is reasonable to expect them to have an opinion which might be (irreconcilably) different from ours. Add to that that most women are much more house proud than most men and it becomes fairly obvious (to most of us ;) ) why WAF plays an important role in such matters.
Here endeth the first lesson :lol: .
Consider yourself doubley lucky: - wealth enough to afford a listening room and a relationship that appears to be working well. Am I jealous? - well maybe a little, of the listening room :lolsign: .
Enjoy. :)
The Grand Wazoo
20-07-2009, 19:55
We make our decisions together, so you could say that my gear has passed the WAF test - even though the speakers are getting on for 5' tall & 1.5' wide. Other peoples wives wouldn't allow them in their houses.
My wife wouldn't let me buy Wilson Watt/Puppies (not that I'd want to) unless we had a dedicated listening room. But by the same token, I wouldn't allow, for example, certain patterns of wallpaper or carpet in our house!
Incidentally, the guy who I bought my speakers from replaced them with a set of the aforementioned Bose 'fluffy dice' cube speakers, because his wife couldn't bear them any longer. Despite their living room being so big it probably had 2 seperate postcodes! He paid over £3.5 for the speakers I got from him, & about £400 (I think) for the Bose kit.
...........That's £120 more than I handed over - Vive la WAF!!!
Beechwoods
20-07-2009, 20:22
I must admit that I get earache all the time about how I'm always acquiring stuff and never getting rid of any. I am lucky though in that I have my own room, where the laws of WAF (and Kiddie Friendly Factor) don't apply. I know that not everyone has this luxury, but I don't see how a decent listening room can coexist with a multi-purpose living room; unless that is, you live in a decent sized house with no kids and no other hobbies!
When I was househunting for my last 2 places an essential was space for 'my room'. As XTC once said:
Tending my fruit, tending my fruit
Ah you've got to have a hobby
A man must have a shed to keep him sane ...
Oh the wife can't complain
To keep him sane
When push came to shove I had the loft converted so I'd have some space as the family grew... I couldn't do without somewhere for my 'stuff'.
If you are passionate about something, I just can't see how you could compromise to such an extent that it meant you couldn't have the system you wanted :confused:
Oh, and to touch on Marco's question about why it's WAF and not GAF or PAF... My guess is it starts with GAF and by the time you're hitched, the paradigm is set and there's no going back. So the lesson is 'start as you mean to go on'. Remember that give and take doesn't mean compromise, it just means finding a happy medium that works for both people in the equasion...
I must admit that I get earache all the time about how I'm always acquiring stuff and never getting rid of any. .
I never get any grief over that, because Caroline is a hoarder by nature; anything and everything 'might come in handy' at some future date.
I think she'd draw the line at multi-level stacks of Mana, but I hate the look of it too, so the question won't arise!
I think that without an element of WAF,there would be alot more Bread bin pre-amps,
curse of the mummy tonearms and icing cake turntables.
Beechwoods
20-07-2009, 20:45
:lol: I wonder if Jonathan Ive's design ethic is dictated by a WAF committee ;)
The Grand Wazoo
20-07-2009, 20:46
I think that without an element of WAF,there would be alot more Bread bin pre-amps,
curse of the mummy tonearms and icing cake turntables.
If my wife wasn't there to hold me back (an eensy weensie bit) there would probably be a lot less bread in the actual bread bin!! Food? .........who needs food?
Beechwoods
20-07-2009, 20:48
Food's ok for the first couple of weeks in the month. I'll give you that :)
The Grand Wazoo
20-07-2009, 20:52
Food's ok for the first couple of weeks in the month. I'll give you that :)
If you saw the size of my waist you'd feel sorry for me - I could've bought some proper hifi if I hadn't eaten all that food!
Moderators note... thread split from the Epping TT Bake Off thread (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3273&page=5), since the turn of discussion seemed to merit it's own little feature!
tonal abberations will be secondary to the hair-raising speed and lack of smear they should reproduce.
Sound deliberately bounced from the walls back into the room is very much time smeared by the time it reaches the ears. That isn't to say that the effect won't be liked by some.
The impression of speed is just that - impression. So often it is generated by a leaned-out sound with some push through the upper mids.
It isn't real speed and the drivers aren't actually doing anything faster.
Often its the old Linn Kan trick :)
My wife likes my Harbeth Monitor 40.1's, says they look "old school" to her, but they won't fit in our living room. Still out in the studio, but we have a pretty modest system in the living room, more due to size constraints than what she'd "agree to have in the room."
twelvebears
28-07-2009, 13:28
On the one hand, Susy is a qualified designer, with an excellent eye for what 'works' and so I'm pretty much stuffed in a debate over what does or doesn't look good.
Fortunately however, Susy also loves music just as much as me AND very much appreciates just how good the systems sounds, which buys me quite a bit of slack on exactly what gets the WAF stamp.
With the recent 'speaker enhancement' project, while the new cabs may be a lot more visible and monolithic than the old boxes, I managed to get away with it because they are beautifully made and sound awesome.
Re the Bose thing, I did once have a very reasuring experience which proved that appearance isn't everything. In a very brief demo between a Bose system and some floorstanding Tannoys, an ex-girlfriend was pretty blunt with the salesman. 'Yes well I'm sure you're trying these because they are small, cute, trendy and actually more expensive. Unfortunaltely they sound shit and I'm not deaf so please take them away.'
Fantastic! :)
Steve Toy
28-07-2009, 14:02
Women do things to impress their friends. If you've ever heard a group of women chatting on sofas in your living room the topic of conversation is usually about carpets, curtains, décor, makeup, handbags, shoes and everything matching. A woman will also like to impress her mates with the fact that she calls the shots in the house not you. The living room is thus her empire and everything is done for show; function is a distant second to form.
Then you should wake up and smell the coffee.
The house is as much yours as it is hers. If listening to music gives you so much pleasure it should take priority. Form should follow function and you should grow a pair of balls.
Peter Stockwell
29-07-2009, 03:17
If you are passionate about something, I just can't see how you could compromise to such an extent that it meant you couldn't have the system you wanted :confused:
I live in a 67 m² flat, with a 24 m² lounge. It serves as the plant room, the living room, if there's more than me an my wife at home it has to serve as a dining room too. As it is, the HiFi and the TV, I wouldn't tolerate a TV in there before LCD TVs, takes up at least 4 m² of that floor space. I can do pretty much anything I want with the kit. Except for the speakers. We chose the speakers, together, over 10 years ago, and, until now, have kept pace with the system's progress.
In this room I want smaller speakers than our B&Ws, the room is very difficult at arround 30hz, that will benefit from the boost at that frequency without being too boomy.
I also want some vintage Klipsch speakers. I intend to get some, one day. However, that won't happen until our home is at least twice as big. I don't think I have the space, even, for the Heresy's.
twelvebears
31-07-2009, 16:57
If you are passionate about something, I just can't see how you could compromise to such an extent that it meant you couldn't have the system you wanted :confused:
Oh, and to touch on Marco's question about why it's WAF and not GAF or PAF... My guess is it starts with GAF and by the time you're hitched, the paradigm is set and there's no going back. So the lesson is 'start as you mean to go on'. Remember that give and take doesn't mean compromise, it just means finding a happy medium that works for both people in the equasion...
Well I think I'm even luckier than that....
We're moving house in about 10 days and predictably, Susy has been planning what's going to go where ever since the offer was accepted. Anyway, even though Susy's has more of an 'embrace' rather than 'accept' attitude to the Hi-Fi, the initial expected arrangement of the speakers either side of the fireplace was causing a bit of a debate....
So then the other day Susy turns rounds and says "I've been thinking about your speakers and stereo. Wouldn't it be better if we just made the front room for the Hi-Fi? You put the system and speakers along the long wall with a sofa opposite, plus then if you wanted a projector later, there's room for a screen on that wall too"
Yeah, I know, I'm a lucky git. :cool:
So then the other day Susy turns rounds and says "I've been thinking about your speakers and stereo. Wouldn't it be better if we just made the front room for the Hi-Fi? You put the system and speakers along the long wall with a sofa opposite, plus then if you wanted a projector later, there's room for a screen on that wall too"
She's obviously planning not to move with you !!:lolsign:
Cheers,
So then the other day Susy turns rounds and says "I've been thinking about your speakers and stereo. Wouldn't it be better if we just made the front room for the Hi-Fi? You put the system and speakers along the long wall with a sofa opposite, plus then if you wanted a projector later, there's room for a screen on that wall too"
Yeah, I know, I'm a lucky git :cool:
Just to top it off, I bet you had a nice game of 'doctors & nurses' afterwards, too :eyebrows: ;)
Marco.
Spectral Morn
31-07-2009, 17:40
Just to top it off, I bet you had a nice game of 'doctors & nurses' afterwards, too :eyebrows: ;)
Marco.
Or in your case Marco.......Nurses and Nurses ;);):lol::lol::lol::lol:
Regards D S D L
Hehehe... Nah, I'm more into 'master & servant'! :lol:
;)
Marco.
Beechwoods
31-07-2009, 18:22
We all know who wears the troosers in your house, ya big softie!
Yesh well, since I'm the one in the dresh, I let her have the troushers :eyebrows:
Marco.
Ian Walker
31-07-2009, 19:34
Shhall i post em the piccy of you in that pink sheequined number:)
Women do things to impress their friends. If you've ever heard a group of women chatting on sofas in your living room the topic of conversation is usually about carpets, curtains, décor, makeup, handbags, shoes and everything matching. A woman will also like to impress her mates with the fact that she calls the shots in the house not you. The living room is thus her empire and everything is done for show; function is a distant second to form.
I must live on a different planet! I have no experience of this at all. :scratch: :lol:
At the moment theres a six foot pair of Martin Logans sitting in (dominating?) our listening room (we're fortunate enough to have a separate room for the telly) and Mrs H loves the things. I was expecting one of those "over my dead body" type arguments over getting the things into the house, but no!... I showed her a picture of them in advance and got a "ooh they're nice" response!
Now I'm having trouble persuading her to let me part with them for something smaller. But I have a cunning plan! :eyebrows:
I guess I'm pretty lucky having a dedicated room to do as I please, but for the living room (much smaller) the Mrs. has pretty good taste, so we've got something that is fun, sounds good and at least we like the looks.
Soon to be running a Nait 2 (pathos integrated in their now), Sooloos music server and a pair of bright tennis ball colored Zu Essences. She liked the color as much as I did and the Zu guys did a spectacular job on the finish, so they look like works of art.
I think these days, there is enough equipment that looks as good as it sounds, so if you do have to make that adjustment for marital calm, you shouldn't have to sacrifice anything...
Shhall i post em the piccy of you in that pink sheequined number:)
Yesh, here I am dahling reshplendent in pink...
http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/5044/ianindrag.png (http://img198.imageshack.us/i/ianindrag.png/)
:eyebrows: :eyebrows:
When I'm feeling decandent I rather like to lounge around in this cheeky little ensemble, whilst watering me Petunias:
http://img383.imageshack.us/img383/4388/ianindrag1.png (http://img383.imageshack.us/i/ianindrag1.png/)
:lol: :lol:
Marco.
The Grand Wazoo
31-07-2009, 22:22
Yesh, here I am dahling reshplendent in pink...
:eyebrows: :lol:
Marco.
Marco, I'm speechless.
You almost made me use smileys there for the first time EVER!!!
(By the way what're you doing tomorrow night....)
Hahahaha......................
(By the way what're you doing tomorrow night....)
Ironing his tights! ;)
The Grand Wazoo
31-07-2009, 22:41
Ironing his tights! ;)
.........or his wigs!
He doesn't have wigs... it's his real hair. He just pops into his private salon through the 'wee door' for a quick re-style! :lol:
Spectral Morn
31-07-2009, 22:52
These last few posts have really been stretching the whole idea of Wife acceptance Factors.........
I pity anyone coming across this by accident, is this an audio forum or .........? ........... ;):lol::lol: Marco first photo is way to small....link says Ian by the way:confused::scratch: ?
Regards D S D L
The Grand Wazoo
31-07-2009, 23:07
He just pops into his private salon through the 'wee door' for a quick re-style! :lol:
Oh, that's what it's for. I thought the 'wee' door led to a cludgie?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA......... Doncha just lurve this place! :lol: :lolsign:
Daphne, I'm sure my shlinky little numbers don't put your wardrobe to shame! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Spectral Morn
01-08-2009, 07:36
Oh, that's what it's for. I thought the 'wee' door led to a cludgie?
It was a wardrobe to Narnia, its a pair of white doors in the wall............leading to Marco land. Be afraid, be very afraid. In there ! No one can hear your screams.................................. :lol::lol:
Regards D S D L
The Grand Wazoo
01-08-2009, 07:42
Be afraid, be very afraid. In there ! No one can hear your screams..................................
Still sounds like some cludgies I've been in!!!!
Still sounds like some cludgies I've been in!!!!
OK, I confess... I had to look it up. :doh:
The second definition made me laugh! :lol:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=cludgie
Spectral Morn
01-08-2009, 07:54
Still sounds like some cludgies I've been in!!!!
Remind me not to use any loos round your way......:(:lol::lol::lol:
Regards D S D L
Nah, you'd love it Neil, as I heard Chris and you are into a bit of 'cottaging' :lol:
;)
Marco.
Oh god... I don't need to look that one up. Kind of wish I did need to though! :doh:
Where the hell is this thread going.... :lol:
Where the hell is this thread going.... :lol:
Hi Mike,
I think that you are probably the best guy to appeal to - some of the other Admin team seem to have goe off back into their own little secret ( or now perhaps not so secret) world.
I suggest that you start another 'Sticky', perhaps having entry only by secret password to protect the innocent, like me, where those with the particular bent ( ;) ) as illustrated by recent postings on this thread can indulge themselves to the hearts (or should that be 'parts' or even 'farts) content without putting us normal folks off our breakfasts.
I'll leave it to your discretion and good judgement.
Cheers,
PS and some people have the audacity to complain about my avatar - there's no justice !!!!
Such is the thread-drifty madness of AOS, Dave!! :lol:
Marco.
Sorry Dave... yer on yer own. I is gonna run awaaaayyyy.....:hotrod:
Steve Toy
01-08-2009, 12:49
tbh the drag queen humour is perhaps wearing a teeny weeny bit thin now and it could make for a cliquey forum. It was good while it lasted but we should all go back in the closet for the sake of our members :eyebrows:
tbh the drag queen humour is perhaps wearing a teeny weeny bit thin now and it could make for a cliquey forum. It was good while it lasted but we should all go back in the closet for the sake of our members :eyebrows:
Oh please, yes PLEASE.
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