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Steve Toy
20-03-2008, 02:17
It all began a few weeks ago when I heard Marco's mate Ian's Yaqin amp at Marco's house. I discovered that valve power really is the way to go as long as you use a decent pre that can be either solid state or valve. At the time I was actually pretty convinced that my Spectral pre was considerably more transparent than Marco's Croft valve pre.

My own Art of Sound hasn't really changed in that I still seek musical communication and articulation above other aspects of faithful reproduction of music but I have discovered that valve power can give even more of that and other stuff besides. My suspicions were confirmed last week when Marco brought his own Yaqin round for me to hear in my own system and through my 4 ohm Piegas.

Good that the Densen B330 is and it's very good, notably at musical communication with sledgehammer (but not overblown) bass, it just didn't quite have the upper frequency extension, spaciousness and sheer clarity of the Yaqin. Tambourines had more body and the timbre of drumstick hitting snare was more pleasing. Then there was the human voice. Locked in centre stage it had more presence and tangibility whether this voice was male or female.

We tried the Spectral with the Yaqin and like at Marco's that combination was very convincing indeed. Moving to the Croft I expected things to begin to sound rather shut in, slightly flat and slightly tired as they had done at his place previously. Except they didn't. The Croft and Spectral were now neck-and-neck. For sure they sounded slightly different but in the grand scheme of things the differences were not worth bothering about. Over extended listening perhaps the Croft had the edge and the Spectral had an edge, although only very slight one that is a characteristic of all that is not valve.

AnthonyTD who posts here has modified the Croft since I last heard it at Marco's and has changed a few valves from what I gather. This would certainly explain the considerable lift in performance to my ears in comparison with the Spectral. I'll be keeping the Spectral though as the Croft is a bespoke item unique to Marco and would almost certainly cost thousands to attempt to replicate or even just approximate.

With the Croft the Yaqin was quite unfussed whether it was connected to my Piegas by either the 8 ohm or 4 ohm taps and we left the speakers connected to the 8 ohm tap. However, swapping back to the Spectral the bass sounded overblown and was actually robbing the midrange of energy. I'd go as far as to say that the amp sounded like it was now struggling via the 8 ohm tap. Switching back 4 ohm and everything was fine. Phew! (I want to keep the Spectral.)

We also tried switching between ultra linear and triode mode on the Yaqin. The former sounded more dynamic but unfortunately the timing was all over the place compared to the latter. The Yaqin is definitely preferable in triode mode.

On the basis of the above bake-off at my place I decided to book an afternoon with Tony of Coherent systems with the possibility that I may kill two birds with one stone in that I could get myself a valve power amp and also by so doing I could release some cash from the sale of my Densen power amp (worth £2300) to partly fund a CD player upgrade. I want something that is the sonic and musical equivalent of the Yaqin but this equivalent must come ready to take 240 volts without the requisite step-down transformer and be CE approved lest it caught fire and my insurance refused to cough up.

The Puresound A30 seemed like a viable alternative. The one I heard at Coherent had been modified by Tony and was impressive indeed. It could also be used in either triode or ultra linear modes without any issues of timing/phase coherence.

I'll have to say at this point that Tony/Coherent Systems' approach pretty much epitomises what the Art of Sound stands for. He has an amazing ability to transform dull yet perhaps reasonably competent hi-fi into something that enables you to actually forget that your favourite music is reaching your ears by electro-mechanical means.

It was my system that was sounding like dull hi-fi although I had left my acrylic Quadraspire stands and the Densen B-330 power amp at home. The Linn Majik CD, the Spectral into the modded Puresound A30 and then into my Piega TS5s were failing to show any significant improvements with the various cable changes that Tony was trying to demonstrate. These failed to lift the system out of its state of uninvolvement and lack of frequency extension at the top end. The Townshend cages underneath the speakers had sorted the bass in a very convincing no-brainer fashion though.

Then Tony tried these Black Ravioli thingies under my preamp that lifted its feet off the glass shelf by about an inch and everything just snapped into focus. Suddenly the top end really opened up giving rather impressive front-to-back soundstage depth and harmonic decay that was previously missing. Now the various Coherent systems' mains, interconnect and speaker cable changes were more convincing, each one in turn removing more noise and harshness while leaving more music intact.

I also heard a couple of CD player upgrades. The cute little Bel Canto CD2 gave my Linn a clean pair of heels in every area notably in terms of bass drive, articulaion and dynamics across the board. It is also only slightly more expensive new than the Linn. The top-notch Esoteric (12k) was just breathtaking and I think it would not be at all embarrassed in the company of a well setup dCS costing nearly three times the price. In some respects I may even prefer the way it it communicates to the slightly smoother sounding dCS. I can't afford it though, so I will have to consider the Bel Canto (with and without its off-board DAC upgrade) against the GamuT CD3.

At Tony's I also got to hear a pair of Focal 1007 be sound just as I would like them for the very first time. The Fleetwoood Mac Rumours CD that was the first I ever bought back in 1987 had never sounded so good. Tony has a real rare talent for putting together a truly musical system for sure.

This week I went to visit Anthony of Tune Distinctions to hear his own system. I learnt about his valve amp expertise and that his own listening priorities seem to be very close to my own. Both the Soul and Copper amps were extremely musical with the Copper amp sounding nothing short of breathtaking (I dream of hearing it with Tony's top Esoteric.) I've decided that I'd like to buy a standard Puresound 30 and get Anthony to modify it by changing all the main valves from 6550s possibly to cryogenically treasted Svetlana KT88s and one or two other bits and pieces. Then I'll have my own unique bespoke amp and still have change (hopefully) after the sale of the Densen.

Hopefully a new valve amp and CD player should be transporting me to(wards) musical nirvana in the next few weeks.

Watch this space.

Mike
20-03-2008, 18:56
Sounds like another 'convert'! :)

I can certainly give the Svetlana's a very strong recommendation, but remain a little unconvinced by cryo treated tubes. I've given them a try, as have some others over on the WD forum, and there's a general consensus that it may be a case of 'the emperor's new clothes' (to borrow someone else's phrase) and not really worth the premium. A matched set of standard Svet's are excellent, they can be pricey from some outlets so shop around. Be sure to get genuine 'Winged C' tubes, avoid China/Hong Kong suppliers IMO, too many copies (of just about anything!) over there.

Good luck & enjoy!

Cheers,
Mike.

anthonyTD
20-03-2008, 20:21
Sounds like another 'convert'! :)

I can certainly give the Svetlana's a very strong recommendation, but remain a little unconvinced by cryo treated tubes. I've given them a try, as have some others over on the WD forum, and there's a general consensus that it may be a case of 'the emperor's new clothes' (to borrow someone else's phrase) and not really worth the premium. A matched set of standard Svet's are excellent, they can be pricey from some outlets so shop around. Be sure to get genuine 'Winged C' tubes, avoid China/Hong Kong suppliers IMO, too many copies (of just about anything!) over there.

Good luck & enjoy!

Cheers,
Mike.
hi mike,
first of all i have to say i have never been taken in by snake oils and such as anyone who has met me and knows me will verify, but the cryo-treatment does work, i even had a friend of mine who works for qinetic to cryo-treat one of a pair of identicle svetlana winged C KT88's and we agreed that to make the test valid he would not tell me which one had been treated.
when i had both back all that was on each was a number that only my mate new what they represented...first of all, i put them in a single ended all valve design and had a listen to just one chanel at a time, there was definately a diffrence, one of the valves sounded a lot more even in frequency and presentation than the other,with what seemed to be better definition at both ends of the scale, ie, better bass depth and a higher frequency extension, with no added harsness!
so i then re-tested them in my AVO 163 tester and sure enough one tested diffrent to when i gave them to him! so when i informed him of my findings he then explaind to me what the numbers related to and sure enough the one that i found had changed in sonic qualties and testing was indeed the one he had treated!
i then when on to be one of the first bespoke valve amp designers to represent the EAT KT88 in my soul amplifier range, [front cover hi fi plus 2003] since then many valve/tube suppliers around the world have started promoting cryo-treatment on selected valves/tubes from stock... so my friend, either the valves in question havent been treated, or the equipment or the ears are not up to detecting the diffrences, but the diffrences are not subtle, so i would presume the later.
anthony,TD...

Mike
20-03-2008, 20:55
Ahhh....

Then the plot thickens!

I must confess, the cryo KT88's I have are Gold Lion re-issue's and not Svetlana's, so although I may not be comparing apples with oranges, I AM comparing Granny Smiths with Braeburns I suppose!

Most of what I said previously is based on what others have said with 'tests' on small signal valves rather than big old output valves, so perhaps the 'benefits' depend on where in the chain the treated valves are deployed?

Also, as someone else pointed out at the time, how do we know they have been treated at all? It could be that the valves in question went on a 'sitting on the shelf for two weeks holiday' type trip. It sounded a bit cynical at the time, but who knows?

I did say "slightly unconvinced" so I'm not going to write off cryo treatment totally and will keep an open mind on the subject as your testing method was obviously more thorough than mine! :clap:

Oh, how I would love to try some EAT KT88 Diamonds, they have a formidable reputation! I see EAT are also now doing a ECC803S Cool Valve, I'd like to try one of those too but I'm afraid the only EAT stuff I've been able to afford so far is a set of CoolDampers!

I'll continue dreaming....... :(


Cheers,
Mike.

anthonyTD
20-03-2008, 21:14
Ahhh....

Then the plot thickens!

I must confess, the cryo KT88's I have are Gold Lion re-issue's and not Svetlana's, so although I may not be comparing apples with oranges, I AM comparing Granny Smiths with Braeburns I suppose!

Most of what I said previously is based on what others have said with 'tests' on small signal valves rather than big old output valves, so perhaps the 'benefits' depend on where in the chain the treated valves are deployed?

Also, as someone else pointed out at the time, how do we know they have been treated at all? It could be that the valves in question went on a 'sitting on the shelf for two weeks holiday' type trip. It sounded a bit cynical at the time, but who knows?

I did say "slightly unconvinced" so I'm not going to write off cryo treatment totally and will keep an open mind on the subject as your testing method was obviously more thorough than mine! :clap:

Oh, how I would love to try some EAT KT88 Diamonds, they have a formidable reputation! I see EAT are also now doing a ECC803S Cool Valve, I'd like to try one of those too but I'm afraid the only EAT stuff I've been able to afford so far is a set of CoolDampers!

I'll continue dreaming....... :(


Cheers,
Mike.
hi mike,
i think you could be right [about them sitting on the shelf and not being done at all, in some cases anyway] thats why i had to conduct my own validated test, just to make sure if there was a diffrence, then it had to be the treatment! i also agree there are probably some very unscrupulous [spelling?] people out there not doing the treatment hoping no one will be able to tell anyway,thats why i only source mine from one supplier and we get a batch done between us!
the EAT KT88 is definately a very good performer, and used to be my choice of valve in the soul amps for a good while, but i found them notoriously un-reliable, and very fragile, they also didnt last very long either[compared to the svets and GEC]...needless to say, i dont tend to stock them now, but i still promote their sonic qualities as second only [on par in some areas] to the original GEC KT88! the GEC having impecable reliability and everything else to boot, but the EAT can be very adictive!
anthony,TD...
PS, some more joke please....

anthonyTD
20-03-2008, 22:14
anthony,TD...
PS, some more joke please....

sorry mike,
i was getting you mixed up with the other mike, concerning his jokes on another thread, i did find them funny though, have a look!!!

Mike
20-03-2008, 22:51
i then re-tested them in my AVO 163 tester

Like this one? ;)

http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/9205/dscf2063vj2.jpg
By shian7 (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/shian7), shot with FinePix A800 (http://profile.imageshack.us/camerabuy.php?model=FinePix+A800&make=FUJIFILM) at 2008-03-20

anthonyTD
20-03-2008, 23:19
Like this one? ;)

http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/9205/dscf2063vj2.jpg
By shian7 (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/shian7), shot with FinePix A800 (http://profile.imageshack.us/camerabuy.php?model=FinePix+A800&make=FUJIFILM) at 2008-03-20
thats the one, except yours is in quite considerably better cosmetic condition than mine! nice!!! but then mine is well used [he,he, couldnt resist it]
off to bed now mate...

Mike
21-03-2008, 00:10
I wish it were mine.....

Belongs to a fellow in Scotland who does a bit of testing for me from time time as a favour.

Marco
22-03-2008, 11:36
We tried the Spectral with the Yaqin and like at Marco's that combination was very convincing indeed. Moving to the Croft I expected things to begin to sound rather shut in, slightly flat and slightly tired as they had done at his place previously. Except they didn't. The Croft and Spectral were now neck-and-neck. For sure they sounded slightly different but in the grand scheme of things the differences were not worth bothering about. Over extended listening perhaps the Croft had the edge and the Spectral had an edge, although only very slight one that is a characteristic of all that is not valve.

AnthonyTD who posts here has modified the Croft since I last heard it at Marco's and has changed a few valves from what I gather. This would certainly explain the considerable lift in performance to my ears in comparison with the Spectral. I'll be keeping the Spectral though as the Croft is a bespoke item unique to Marco and would almost certainly cost thousands to attempt to replicate or even just approximate.


Steve,

Good post; I'm sorry for taking so long to reply!

Just to clarify, Anthony has not modified the Croft. He supplied some of the new valves I've fitted, that's all :)

I'm glad you're gradually leaving the mainstream and entering the world of bespoke hi-fi. This is definitely the way to go for maximum sound-per-pound and ultimate satisfaction, which is something I've been enjoying for years with the likes of my bespoke Sony CDP and Technics T/T, and will be doing again with Anthony's modified Yaqin. There's nothing to beat owning something that sounds fantastic and is unique!

As you've described above, the Croft now is something very special - I've quite simply never head a better preamp, such is how natural, lifelike, and utterly convincing it makes all types of music sound. Since upgrading the main preamp valves to NOS Mullard ECC83 and the driver valves to NOS Mullard ECC35, the phono stage in particular, good as it was before, is now an absolute revelation, and with the Auditorium 23 and DL-103 Pro vinyl sounds simply stunning. You're right - the Croft is special and I would put it up against any other preamp on the market today.

I've got to say though that your Spectral preamp is the best solid-state preamp I've ever heard as it really injects music with joie de vivre which makes it such an addictive listen with all types of music. If I had discovered one of these years ago I doubt I would have bought a NAC52!

Anyway, it'll be very interesting hearing what Anthony's modified Puresound sounds like. I think you could have something really special on your hands...

Exciting times are ahead!

Marco.

Steve Toy
23-03-2008, 15:18
Marco,

I'm certainly looking forward to getting my bespoke valve amp. As discussed with Anthony, it can be an on-going project to the point where no further improvements can realistically be made at which I could sell it as a unique item and start afresh with another valve amp.

I'm also looking forward to a better CD player and the possibility of computer audio (done properly).