View Full Version : What is your last Turntable going to be?
The Barbarian
08-07-2014, 11:49
I'm ok with what i got now, sounds very good but not a turntable to fit my ideal.
I did short list a few motor units a while back. but always kept hankering after a Sparta 'GT-12' with Syntech '220' pick up arm..
That would well & truly be my last ever Turntable.
g2j3F1XktzM
Wakefield Turntables
08-07-2014, 11:57
I think Im done Unless something really took my fancy
I'd like an EMT but I've probably got Bob Hope of that occuring.
Wakefield Turntables
08-07-2014, 12:47
I'd like an EMT but I've probably got Bob Hope of that occuring.
Yeah the 930 or the 930st would be nice, again would have to be at a very very good price.
Yeah the 930 or the 930st would be nice, again would have to be at a very very good price.
Yes I need to drop on one at a car boot for around a tenner....
The Barbarian
08-07-2014, 13:49
Well that's two 'I Thinks' at the mo
:D
istari_knight
08-07-2014, 14:50
As its my secondary source [heresy I know :D] I'm not too worried... I do have the occasional wet dream involving TD-124/II but they are expensive & I'm a very patient man ;)
The Barbarian
08-07-2014, 14:54
I know what you mean James. My dream would be a 'TD124'/Schopper plinth/Schopper PS 1 PSU/Schopper new Main platter & Top platter..
istari_knight
08-07-2014, 14:59
Thats a good dream :thumbsup:
If you fancy being getaway driver in a couple of PO "stick ups" let me know... We can have one each then ! [I am joking of course... Honest guv :D]
Beobloke
08-07-2014, 14:59
My last turntable will be the one I buy before the next one I buy after that... :D
That said, though, if I ever find a Nakamichi TX-1000 I can afford, I'll probably slow down the buying a bit!
The one in my Avatar, when they wheel me off as a jabbering wreck to the old folks home.
Maybe an EMT 938 would be nice, but then I've already got four decks: three Thorens TD124/II turntables and an EMT 930st. So it would just be greedy of me!
Ali Tait
08-07-2014, 18:19
Happy with the 401,though the Audio Grail restored ones look great.
Technics SP-10 MkII. With Pass Labs PSU. A suitably mega-awesome arm, and plinth made from Panzerholz.
Another 'I think I'm done' ... sorry :rolleyes:
PaulStewart
08-07-2014, 20:57
I love the Art Audio Composer-1, I may in the future get a go for a Garrard 501 and if I ever see a JVC QL10 i'll grab it. I now have 8 GL75s in the process of restoration and re-plinthing and I may keep one as as sample :)
RobbieGong
08-07-2014, 21:27
I think if I had the available funds I would do every single mod / upgrade possible that I would like to do with my SL1210. This is simply because it has blown me away with how good it has sounded with the Mike New ETP and bearing, external psu, Micro Seiki tonearm and Yannis Tome tonearm cable, plus 2M Black mm. I think I'd wet myself and some if I heard it with the Mike New bearing base plate added, plus Paul Hynes SR7 power supply with regulator mods and a top notch mc too :wow:
chris@panteg
09-07-2014, 08:01
SP10 MK 3 or Kenwood LO7D
The Barbarian
09-07-2014, 08:16
Does the high possibility of a breakdown ever bother you guys with some of you deck choices? I stay clear of any Turntables the have large amounts of electronics on board.. The venerable decks from der 60's will play for ever & ever amen no worries what so ever about breakdown. You can't beat the old clunkers lads..
:eyebrows:
belloire
09-07-2014, 08:27
no idea until i see them all. happy with the 1210 at the moment, but that rarely lasts :)
i think a nice pioneer exclusive p3 is probably the nirvana of DD decks, though i've always hankered after a brinkmann Oasis too
ah to dream the impossible dream.....
Beobloke
09-07-2014, 08:51
Does the high possibility of a breakdown ever bother you guys with some of you deck choices? I stay clear of any Turntables the have large amounts of electronics on board.. The venerable decks from der 60's will play for ever & ever amen no worries what so ever about breakdown. You can't beat the old clunkers lads..
:eyebrows:
No, breakdowns don't worry me in the slightest. Firstly, most of the decks being mentioned here are Japanese, and they're not exactly known for their unreliability, plus when you read on the internet "it can't be fixed" what this usually means is "I don't know how to fix it"!!
Whilst one or two decks used application-specific ICs, such a the speed control chip on the Technics SP-15, most of the rest of them actually used fairly standard components, which can still be found if you know where to look. Also, it takes a pretty catastrophic problem to kill an IC - it's usually the more straightforward stuff that goes, such as capacitors, resistors and transformers, plus design/build issues coming to light such as double-sided circuit board connections that fail after 30 years.
Frankly, not buying something "becasue it might break" seems a bit silly to me. Even if it does, what about the months/years/decades of enjoyment you might get from it first?! Finally, let's not forget that some of those horror stories are overblown - my Sony Biotracer PS-B80 is known for being "unrepairable", yet a handful of capacitors, one op-amp that is still available in RS Components and a bit of soldering brought it back to life. Equally, everyone "knows" that the ADC Accutrac 4000 is hideously unreliable. Well, I've had three - yes, the first one never worked properly but the second and the third performed faultlessly and the latter is still doing so - I know because i still own it!
The Barbarian
09-07-2014, 09:00
No, breaksdowns don't worry me in the slightest.
:doh:
tbh the last thing i need is
a, worry that my TT is gonna fail next time i want to use it
b, i don't have time for messing about with potentially unreliable crap
When i buy Hi-Fi it has to have no gadget & last for ever. This is called ultimate reliability. I have tons of gear that is older than me, it is still working to this day without even being serviced as yet.
I've got an sl1200 which should last me out but in case it doesn't I have a spare one stashed away. I'm pretty confident that they will last a lot longer than I will.
Beobloke
09-07-2014, 11:43
I've got an sl1200 which should last me out but in case it doesn't I have a spare one stashed away. I'm pretty confident that they will last a lot longer than I will.
I like your strategy. Trouble is, following it means I need to find not one but TWO Nakamichi TX-1000s....:doh:
I like your strategy. Trouble is, following it means I need to find not one but TWO Nakamichi TX-1000s....:doh:
Much the same problem I've got trying to find a back-up pair of Akai SW175.
I have a spare one stashed away. I'm pretty confident that they will last a lot longer than I will.
Was that the one I flogged you Martin? As I recall it was in very good shape.
Was that the one I flogged you Martin? As I recall it was in very good shape.
Yes it is in perfect nick and so I am using it as my 'A' deck. The other one I have is de-badged and painted white so looks quite cool but it is a lot older than the one I got off you ( it's from1990 I think, although the crazy way Technics did the model numbering if you have a deck built in a 'zero' year it is not possible to tell which 'zero' year it is from ).
Recently worked out what my potential pension's liklely to be, so it's a good thing I'm happy with Old Faithful!
http://www.thepippin.plus.com/TT2/old%20faithful.JPG
The Barbarian
09-07-2014, 13:47
Ah good, seemed crazy you of all people not to have one.. That Mission '774' is a good match for it..
Haselsh1
09-07-2014, 15:13
I think Im done Unless something really took my fancy
Yeah, same here. My current turntable will be my last unless I become a lottery millionaire. At the moment I have a Thorens TD160B MkII fitted with a Linn LVV tonearm and an Ortofon OM40 cartridge but the cartridge won't see the end of next year.
Wakefield Turntables
09-07-2014, 19:21
Yeah, same here. My current turntable will be my last unless I become a lottery millionaire. At the moment I have a Thorens TD160B MkII fitted with a Linn LVV tonearm and an Ortofon OM40 cartridge but the cartridge won't see the end of next year.
Ive just gone and bought one of these, i got the Thorens itch :doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh:.
I have had my last turntable for about 20 years now. I decided to look for a Goldmund Reference or a Rockport when CD had taken over and some came on the market. I ended up with the Goldmund. I didn't expect LP to come back into fashion, but it has!
I have a B&O 8002, EMT 938 and Roksan Xerxes too, but in truth little by little I almost never play LPs any more.
You can send the EMT over to me then. With all those decks you won't miss it ;)
Haselsh1
11-07-2014, 16:07
Ive just gone and bought one of these, i got the Thorens itch :doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh:.
I just love the Thorens but don't love the spin up time. It is a bit excessive isn't it but then it is a tad better than starting up a Nottingham Analogue.
I covet a Sony TTS-8000 or Kenwood L-07D
My 401 was "final destination" almost 30 years ago and that aint gonna change. Ever. Sentimental reasons as much as sonic ones - the happy coincidence is that whatever the reason, there's little to touch it in most areas.
If I ever get my 401 going and fully restored maybe that, but I do like the aesthetics of VPI, Clearaudio and Michell Engineering which could make me take the easy route, as I won't spin a lot of vinyl TBH :scratch:
walpurgis
11-07-2014, 22:09
My 401 was "final destination" almost 30 years ago and that aint gonna change. Ever. Sentimental reasons as much as sonic ones - the happy coincidence is that whatever the reason, there's little to touch it in most areas.
I had a 401 and it was fine, but somehow just did not endear itself to me, so it was sold eventually. I also sold my silver and white 301s. I found the Goldring Lenco G99 and G88 preferable somehow. I mean, they all sounded great, but I liked using the Goldrings more (a bit less clunky?). They eventually went too. After a relatively short period of Rega and Technics use some years ago, I've since been running a lovely seventies Toshiba SR-370 direct drive TT and have not looked back.
would take something I will never afford to part me with my SRM Arezzo...looks and sounds fabulous.
walpurgis
11-07-2014, 23:25
would take something I will never afford to part me with my SRM Arezzo...looks and sounds fabulous.
I must admit, the SRM turntables look very attractive and I gather they sound pretty decent. Not heard one yet though.
You can send the EMT over to me then. With all those decks you won't miss it ;)
Nah - it's mine, mine, mine! (see post 13)
I must admit, the SRM turntables look very attractive and I gather they sound pretty decent. Not heard one yet though.
I got one of the first 10 made and never regretted it. I know they are not the flavour of the month on these forums probably because no one has really heard them but they are super decks.
Alshalan
13-07-2014, 10:17
yamaha gt-2000 or pioneer exclusive
kininigin
13-07-2014, 17:54
Only ever heard,used or owned a Technics 1200/10! So i guess it will be a Technics! Slightly boring answer but the only one i can give! Would like to hear an EMT though!
Probably the one I own right now in all seriousness (Technics SL5) as I am considering bailing out of vinyl. To be honest the deck needs a damned good service to bring it up to spec and coupled with that my phonostage bit the dust a little while back. The fact that the cost to rectify all this will be prohibitive and that I am thoroughly enjoying the digital side of things right now, I probably won't bother.
Started out with Pioneer 110D in 1978. Had a few since then - Dual 505, Revolver, Townshend Avalon, Pink Triangle LPT, Pro-Ject Debut Carbon. Always lusted after a Linn LP12 which I finally got in March this year. I love the sound it makes. Can't see me changing again....
VPI Direct Drive or maybe something else DD/Idler?
I note that Brinkmann only use DD for their cheaper (make that 'less expensive' ) decks. Their top deck is belt-drive. The VPi is nothing but a bought-in DD mechanism placed in a cheap box. For 30,000 dollars! No suspension, no isolation....if that's good design I'm a Kola Bear. There is a great deal more to turntable design than a narrow obsession with one aspect (in this case speed stability). A great deck needs to provide solutions to both speed stability and vibration issues. Very few manufactures even bother to try. Those that do include the old favourites, Linn, SME and Michell. Which is why they have stood the test of time.
As for the old broadcast decks....they were all designed in the mono age for reliability and rapid start-up. not 'sound quality'. Most of them are downright noisy, which is why they faded away until fashion brought them back. Stereo needed quieter, better designed, decks.
The broadcast decks are, in the main, clunky, Heath Robinson devices which rarely sound as good as their supporters claim. And I used to work in broadcasting when these beasts were still around.....engineers couldn't wait to get rid of them. And they were good engineers who recognised the limitations of these obsolete decks. Fashion and nostalgia have a lot to answer for.
As for the old broadcast decks....they were all designed in the mono age for reliability and rapid start-up. not 'sound quality'. Most of them are downright noisy, which is why they faded away until fashion brought them back. Stereo needed quieter, better designed, decks.
The broadcast decks are, in the main, clunky, Heath Robinson devices which rarely sound as good as their supporters claim. And I used to work in broadcasting when these beasts were still around.....engineers couldn't wait to get rid of them. And they were good engineers who recognised the limitations of these obsolete decks. Fashion and nostalgia have a lot to answer for.
Care to name names?
Idlewithnodrive
03-08-2014, 16:02
I note that Brinkmann only use DD for their cheaper (make that 'less expensive' ) decks. Their top deck is belt-drive. The VPi is nothing but a bought-in DD mechanism placed in a cheap box. For 30,000 dollars! No suspension, no isolation....if that's good design I'm a Kola Bear. There is a great deal more to turntable design than a narrow obsession with one aspect (in this case speed stability). A great deck needs to provide solutions to both speed stability and vibration issues. Very few manufactures even bother to try. Those that do include the old favourites, Linn, SME and Michell. Which is why they have stood the test of time.
As for the old broadcast decks....they were all designed in the mono age for reliability and rapid start-up. not 'sound quality'. Most of them are downright noisy, which is why they faded away until fashion brought them back. Stereo needed quieter, better designed, decks.
The broadcast decks are, in the main, clunky, Heath Robinson devices which rarely sound as good as their supporters claim. And I used to work in broadcasting when these beasts were still around.....engineers couldn't wait to get rid of them. And they were good engineers who recognised the limitations of these obsolete decks. Fashion and nostalgia have a lot to answer for.
............ and so, your end deck will be a ?
As for the old broadcast decks....they were all designed in the mono age for reliability and rapid start-up. not 'sound quality'. Most of them are downright noisy, which is why they faded away until fashion brought them back. Stereo needed quieter, better designed, decks.
The broadcast decks are, in the main, clunky, Heath Robinson devices which rarely sound as good as their supporters claim. And I used to work in broadcasting when these beasts were still around.....engineers couldn't wait to get rid of them. And they were good engineers who recognised the limitations of these obsolete decks. Fashion and nostalgia have a lot to answer for.
Hi Peter,
Fair enough if that's your opinion. I also understand where you're coming from and accept some of its validity. Trouble is, my extensive experience of listening to well-fettled SP10s, Garrard 301/401s, Thorens TD124s, EMTs, not to mention Technics SL-1200/1210s, is contrary to what you have just written.
Indeed, I've yet to hear any Linn, SME or Michell T/T sonically or musically outperform the best examples of the above, which goes to prove that in this game there are no absolutes....
Fashion or nostalgia play no part whatsoever in my choice of turntable; only out-and-out audio performance, which is why I use what I do and not a Linn, SME or a Michell.
Marco.
http://recordplayer.com
Any one of the above would be my last turntable!
337alant
03-08-2014, 20:15
This Pioneer PLC590 could be my last turntable if it turns out to be as good as it looks?, will let you know when I get and arm and cart on it
http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh290/337alant/IMG_1303_zps82d4a28a.jpg (http://s259.photobucket.com/user/337alant/media/IMG_1303_zps82d4a28a.jpg.html)
Alan
Hear is the man himself!
http://youtu.be/yQrXvYZv1zQ
This Pioneer PLC590 could be my last turntable if it turns out to be as good as it looks?, will let you know when I get and arm and cart on it
http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh290/337alant/IMG_1303_zps82d4a28a.jpg (http://s259.photobucket.com/user/337alant/media/IMG_1303_zps82d4a28a.jpg.html)
Alan
Drop dead gorgeous Alan :stalks:
Care to name names?
Sorry, I have just realised my invitation was ambiguous. What I meant was to name the "clunky, Heath Robinson devices which rarely sound as good as their supporters claim." Not, of course, to name the "good engineers who recognised the limitations of these obsolete decks."
So what were these decks? Russco, QRK, Garrard, Thorens, EMT?
l think l may already own my last T/T- unless l get a big windfall.............:lol:
jollyfix
04-08-2014, 08:23
l think l may already own my last T/T- unless l get a big windfall.............:lol:
Same here Andy.
I note that Brinkmann only use DD for their cheaper (make that 'less expensive' ) decks. Their top deck is belt-drive. The VPi is nothing but a bought-in DD mechanism placed in a cheap box. For 30,000 dollars! No suspension, no isolation....if that's good design I'm a Kola Bear. There is a great deal more to turntable design than a narrow obsession with one aspect (in this case speed stability). A great deck needs to provide solutions to both speed stability and vibration issues. Very few manufactures even bother to try. Those that do include the old favourites, Linn, SME and Michell. Which is why they have stood the test of time.
As for the old broadcast decks....they were all designed in the mono age for reliability and rapid start-up. not 'sound quality'. Most of them are downright noisy, which is why they faded away until fashion brought them back. Stereo needed quieter, better designed, decks.
The broadcast decks are, in the main, clunky, Heath Robinson devices which rarely sound as good as their supporters claim. And I used to work in broadcasting when these beasts were still around.....engineers couldn't wait to get rid of them. And they were good engineers who recognised the limitations of these obsolete decks. Fashion and nostalgia have a lot to answer for.
Err Peter is your view based on fact or opinion - have you actually heard the new VPI DD?
I think Peter's run off in a huff... ;)
Marco.
Mighty Ant
05-08-2014, 17:48
At the moment I fancy a Bergmann Sindre or Sleipner. But if I had it would I really want to blow (pun intended) £40K on a turntable that I might only keep for a short while?
I haven't run off, I've just been busy buying Nagoka 500 from a fellow member, and fighting the garden plants and bushes. They really do have a life of their own.
I must admit I have never heard the VPI DD, but you don't need to be a Vet to recognise a dog. I guarantee that deck will undergo substantial 'revisions' in the coming months, even a fan like Fremer had clear misgivings. And I am familiar with perhaps the greatest DD ever built, the Rockport Sirius, so I have heard what this technology can do..
I meant what I said about the idler wheel stuff. The designs all arise from the need for instant start-up, and that dictated the mechanisms, not ultimate sound quality. There are just too many complex bits of mechanism to work really well in the stereo age. That is why they died out. Great fun to renovate and enjoy, I'm all in favour of that. What i'm less keen on is the movement to elevate their potential well beyond reality.
And of course, there are no 'absolutes'...someone out there probably worships his Garrard SP25 as the best deck of all time. But such an approach can get a bit 'liberal' and tedious. So we sometimes speak in Absolutes just for the fun of it.
My 'final' deck? Probably what I already use, an SME with 12inch arm. If I had to choose something else, I'd probably choose an 'old school' L12, with an Aro arm. Small, easily serviceable, great history, fine sound.
Now, do I mount the Nagoka 500 today or keep putting it off? Next time I'l have a rant about modern Moving Coil cartridges.....goodness, they are awful.
Get that Nagaoka mounted today - once you've done it you'll realise how crazy you were to put it off. I was listening to mine last night it really can't be faulted in any respect.
I meant what I said about the idler wheel stuff. The designs all arise from the need for instant start-up, and that dictated the mechanisms, not ultimate sound quality.
So why, for many of us with extensive experience of listening to such T/Ts, at their best, has your claim not turned into reality? I've heard plenty of SMEs, LP12s and Michells over the years, and much as I recognise their strengths, sonically, I wouldn't take one over a well-fettled (high-quality) idler or direct-drive.
Enjoy the Naga, btw. It's a rather nice cart!
Marco.
I'm too old to claim that everyone must like the same things. But if you really think that some old Garrard is the height of turntable technology, or a Technics 1200 for that matter, then fine. carry on.
Technics SL1200 is the height of technology in some respects. Using a magnetic field to rotate the platter is a pretty advanced way of doing things - makes belt drive look a bit pre-Roman. On the other hand the best TT I've ever heard was a heavily modded GL75. It's like arguing over what is the best car in the world - fun but ultimately pointless :)
''Ultimately pointless''? Probably, but it does have the potential merit of examining different positions. Let's take the 'direct drive' one head on. By sheer luck, I have been able to follow every iteration of the Rockport Technologies Sirius turntable...from early belt-drive in the 1990s to a 2011 'ultimate direct drive' version....which is accurate to within one part per million speed stability. What has been striking is that in every version, the drive mechanism is only a part of the challenge....other factors, especially isolation from vibration, are equally vital. You cannot describe the quality of any good turntable by just pointing to one feature. The speed stability of (say) the 1200 is no better than some belt drives, but then you never just experience 'speed stability' in a deck...you hear the sum total of a whole range of factors.
And this is what I object to, the attempt to reduce complex issues to just one factor. The fashionable 'issue' is speed stability (''drive'') but that just won't do, not at all. The designer of the latest Air Force I and 11 superdecks, is quoted in ''Hi Fi Plus' as describing a major problem as 'vibration.' You have to grapple with a whole range of inter-acting issues, not just one. I'l give an example I am familiar with: the suspended SME decks (20/30/30-12) have similar drive mechanisms, and measure virtually identically. But they also have a range of changes to the isolation, and you can hear that as you go up the range. You have to balance these competing factors.
That is why I admire designers such as Michell, Linn and SME. Their designs acknowledge the need to deal with both speed and vibration issues, not to ignore complexity and propose simple solutions. Overall they are likely to give better all-round results, because they are 'grown-up' designs . Simply plopping a direct drive mechanism into a box is not a grown-up design because it pretends that vibration problems are irrelevant. It's an unbalanced design. there are many others. Think of a car....the great ones always grapple with a whole range of issues,engine,suspension, brakes, body and so on. It all has to work as one. So does a great turntable. Simply praising (say) direct or idler drive is as useful as talking about a car only in terms of the engine. Life's more complex than that.
I don't disagree with a word of that. The only thing I would add is that speed stability is a fundemental requirement and if a deck cannot achieve that it is not adequate for purpose regardless of how well isolated it is. There are several commerically available decks with a speed variaton of +/- 1%. IME that is audible, not necessarily specificaly audible as wow and flutter but in the general perception of the sound.
Decks that cover both bases - speed stability and immunity from external and internal vibration extremely well tend to be very expensive - your SME for example.
For me the SL1200 covers the speed stability issue satisfactorily and the vibration issue reasonably well and it does not cost twenty thousand pounds, so consequently it is what I use.
rubber duck
07-08-2014, 13:52
I'm not sure I follow your argument here Peter. Yes, I understand that the drive mechanism is only part of the design challenge. But are you saying all things being equal, you think belt drive is superior?
I never heard any of the Rockports but was very familiar with the Forsell Air Force (fly wheel, thread drive, air bearing) which was a direct challenge to the Sirius in the 1990s. So I'd like to hear the end of the Rockport story - which version of the Sirius was best?
And to keep to the OP, I'd probably go for something like this, with or without suspension: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?26776-STST-Turntables&highlight=STST
I'm too old to claim that everyone must like the same things. But if you really think that some old Garrard is the height of turntable technology, or a Technics 1200 for that matter, then fine. carry on.
That sounds rather patronising, Peter. This isn't pfm or Wigwam, and so we don't address each other here in that tone. The above is simply the opinion I've reached from my 30+ years of experience as a hi-fi and music enthusiast.
I judge audio equipment purely on how well, to my ears, it reproduces recorded music. Therefore, if "some old Garrard", or whatever, performs better in that respect than an SME or a Linn, then that's what I'll use.
The only thing I "admire" about a turntable, genuine engineering prowess aside, is its efficacy as tool for accurately reproducing recorded music. In that respect, I've yet to hear direct or idler-drive, done well, being significantly outperformed by anything that (low to medium-mass) belt-drive has to offer.
Perhaps I could pop round sometime and demonstrate to you where I'm coming from? We have relatives who live in Sussex :)
Marco.
I don't disagree with a word of that.
I do. Theories are great, but they don't always work in practice! ;)
Often the reality is rather different from the theory.
Marco.
I haven't run off, I've just been busy buying Nagoka 500 from a fellow member, and fighting the garden plants and bushes. They really do have a life of their own.
I must admit I have never heard the VPI DD, but you don't need to be a Vet to recognise a dog. I guarantee that deck will undergo substantial 'revisions' in the coming months, even a fan like Fremer had clear misgivings. And I am familiar with perhaps the greatest DD ever built, the Rockport Sirius, so I have heard what this technology can do..
I meant what I said about the idler wheel stuff. The designs all arise from the need for instant start-up, and that dictated the mechanisms, not ultimate sound quality. There are just too many complex bits of mechanism to work really well in the stereo age. That is why they died out. Great fun to renovate and enjoy, I'm all in favour of that. What i'm less keen on is the movement to elevate their potential well beyond reality.
And of course, there are no 'absolutes'...someone out there probably worships his Garrard SP25 as the best deck of all time. But such an approach can get a bit 'liberal' and tedious. So we sometimes speak in Absolutes just for the fun of it.
My 'final' deck? Probably what I already use, an SME with 12inch arm. If I had to choose something else, I'd probably choose an 'old school' L12, with an Aro arm. Small, easily serviceable, great history, fine sound.
Now, do I mount the Nagoka 500 today or keep putting it off? Next time I'l have a rant about modern Moving Coil cartridges.....goodness, they are awful.
You can't judge a Turntable by simply looking at a picture and reading an article, that's like saying you know what a car feels like to drive by simply looking at in a showroom or reading a brochure:scratch:
I do. Theories are great, but they don't always work in practice! ;)
Often the reality is rather different from the theory.
Marco.
You disagree that to be any good a turntable must have consistent speed and immunity from vibration? There is not a lot else it needs to do. I think Peter is suggesting that idler drives inject noise into the system, which is a fair point bit how much that will impinge on SQ. if at all. is debatable. I'm not sure what his objection to direct drive is, if indeed he has one.
DD tend to sound a bit 'hard' to my ears. I prefer an almost subliminal sense of 'ease'. All this is a displacement activity to avoid mounting the Nagoka 500. One slip and that's a stylus gone.....
You disagree that to be any good a turntable must have consistent speed and immunity from vibration?
No, daftee, I disagree that everything that Peter wrote was beyond being disagreed with (some of which I've highlighted). The above are the fundamentals of what makes a good turntable :)
Marco.
DD tend to sound a bit 'hard' to my ears. I prefer an almost subliminal sense of 'ease'.
In terms of the last bit, me too - and I get in spades from my (carefully and selectively) modified SL-1210. However, it's taken considerable expenditure to get there. At the end of the day, though, it's about understanding exactly what you want and how to achieve it! ;)
As for the bit in blue, I *totally* agree. DD, done badly (or less than optimally) unquestionably DOES sound 'hard'. However, if you know what you're doing, and judiciously combine the use of the right partnering ancillaries, it needn't do.
So, could I have the honour sometime of (hopefully) demonstrating that to you?
Marco.
DD tend to sound a bit 'hard' to my ears. I prefer an almost subliminal sense of 'ease'. All this is a displacement activity to avoid mounting the Nagoka 500. One slip and that's a stylus gone.....
Well I managed it and I am hardly experienced in such things as I always had a dealer do it for me for two decades. Get it sorted and tell us what you think. It sounds really good in a stock SL1200 so in an SME (20? 30?) it should sound like the voice of God.
There are just too many complex bits of mechanism to work really well in the stereo age. That is why they died out......
Cost of manufacture may have played a part but for the UK market I suspect the real reason was the marketing tactics and relentless press coverage of a certain TT manufacturer in Scotland ;)
Cost of manufacture may have played a part but for the UK market I suspect the real reason was the marketing tactics and relentless press coverage of a certain TT manufacturer in Scotland ;)
STD were fiends:eyebrows:
That is why I admire designers such as Michell, Linn and SME. Their designs acknowledge the need to deal with both speed and vibration issues, not to ignore complexity and propose simple solutions. Overall they are likely to give better all-round results, because they are 'grown-up' designs . Simply plopping a direct drive mechanism into a box is not a grown-up design.
Sorry this is too simplistic and narrow thinking IMHO and possibly patronising. 'Grown up designs; What does that mean? I respect the engineering in the SME and Michell decks, I had a Gyro SE and visited the factory on a number of occasions but to suggest that they are in some way engineered in a superior way or to a higher level to an equivalent DD is ridiculous. I can imagine all the engineers at Panasonic, JVC, Pioneer & Kenwood etc having a bit of an opposing opinion! ;) As for the LP12..... Well........
Ever tried to repair one of those direct drives? They will all be in the skip while Linns, Michells, SMEs and so on are playing away.The Japanese aren't interested in long-term back-up (I greatly admire Japanese audio, but it's true). The great UK firms offer long-term support and repair.
walpurgis
07-08-2014, 22:23
Not sure that's quite right. My (very nice) DD TT is forty years old and shows no sign of giving up. As far as I know much of the electronics is repairable if need be. I have a spare one for bits anyway.
Yes! :D And no they won't all end up in the skip ;) The only ones that might are the ones designed around an ASIC which are very hard to source as a replacement or if there are not numerous donor versions about. In reality failure rates are very low unless you do something stupid to the electronics.
Ever tried to repair one of those direct drives? They will all be in the skip while Linns, Michells, SMEs and so on are playing away.The Japanese aren't interested in long-term back-up (I greatly admire Japanese audio, but it's true). The great UK firms offer long-term support and repair.
BTH K10A
07-08-2014, 22:35
Ever tried to repair one of those direct drives? They will all be in the skip while Linns, Michells, SMEs and so on are playing away.The Japanese aren't interested in long-term back-up (I greatly admire Japanese audio, but it's true). The great UK firms offer long-term support and repair.
Service and repair is still available for my EMT's, both idler and DD and one of them is 52 years old. The requirement for isolation was understood perfectly by EMT, the 930 shock mount frame being a good example.
337alant
07-08-2014, 22:58
Sorry this is too simplistic and narrow thinking IMHO and possibly patronising. 'Grown up designs; What does that mean? I respect the engineering in the SME and Michell decks, I had a Gyro SE and visited the factory on a number of occasions but to suggest that they are in some way engineered in a superior way or to a higher level to an equivalent DD is ridiculous. I can imagine all the engineers at Panasonic, JVC, Pioneer & Kenwood etc having a bit of an opposing opinion! ;) As for the LP12..... Well........
Neil completely agree after living with suspension belt drive turntables since the 70s and being brain washed by the HIFI press into believing this was the rout to audio bliss, I discovered a Garrard 401 which trounced my Linn Sondek and since then I have discovered that the Techy 1200 1210 can be very musical and accurate and 33/45 at the flick of a switch no nonsense required
My recent purchase of a Pioneer PLC-590 makes me realise for all these years there were fantastic DD turntables out there that never ever got a mention in the British HIFI press.
BTW I still own a Linn LP12 and a Rega P3 and a Michell Gyro with a Orbe platter and none of them get used in preference to my 401, Pioneer PLC-590, Technichs 1200 even my £30 lenco GL75 kick arse but did we ever hear about ibn the brain washing years.
The linn Sondek was a copy of the Ariston RD11s actually designed by Hamish Robertson in 1971 which in reality were also just copies of the A&R and Thorens turntables of the day, and for Paskin to state that this is a proper design and their designs acknowledge the need to deal with both speed and vibration issues??? we are talking about the LP12 fruit box here that cant do a sustained Piano note to save its life, and does everyone remember the lossy armbord connection 3 nasty screws in a crude attempt to deal with the very real poor design of vibration control form the sub chassis, and 45rpm ???please LOL
to get a decent LP12 now will cost you about £5k, there are a multitude of £50 - £500 DD & Idler tuntables that get you 90 - 110% of what suspended turntables have to offer.
Rant over Alan
Alan
+1 Alan. I lived with a top spec LP12 for 18 years, bought into the BS and upgrade religion hook line and sinker...to think of all the decks I could have spent my money on makes me quite angry, I sold a rare electronic speed control version of the Logic Tempo with Datum IIs arm to help finance the LP12 purchase....that still hurts! :mental:
ISo, could I have the honour sometime of (hopefully) demonstrating that to you?
So, do you not fancy it then, Peter? Your ignoring my suggestion seems that you'd rather bury your head in the sand and pretend that your SME is better.... ;)
It's rather disappointing when folk make fairly dogmatic statements on Internet forums, but when their assertions are challenged, don't have the gumption to put them to the test! Hey-ho...
Marco.
Beobloke
08-08-2014, 08:06
Ever tried to repair one of those direct drives?
Yes thanks - quite a few:
Deck (1) - A very complicated model that is allegedly "unrepairable" once broken, Needed a handful of capacitors, a standard op-amp available from Maplin and some re-soldering.
Deck (2) - Needed one NPN transistor, two capacitors and some solder re-working
Deck (3) - A 100V Japanese deck that was plugged into 240V by mistake - needed a new fuse!
Deck (4) - Again, a 110V deck plugged into 240V. Needed one new diode and one new fuse.
Frankly, the only decks that come to mind as being controlled by ASICs are the Technics SP-15 and the ADC Accutrac 4000. Yes, the former can be rendered completely useless if the motor control IC dies but most of the probelms with the latter are down to the optical sensors controlling the mechanism.
Frankly, I think it comes back to the fact that the best turntables are the well designed belt, direct and idler designs; it's not how it's done, but how well it's done.
As a final mischevious thought, though, someone once said to me - "Why did the Japanese spend so much time and money on developing direct drive motors if the best way to spin a record really is using a little Philips motor and a rubber band?" :D
Hehehehe... Nail > head! :eyebrows:
Frankly, I think it comes back to the fact that the best turntables are the well designed belt, direct and idler designs; it's not how it's done, but how well it's done.
Precisely, hence why earlier, when I was outlining my experiences, I continually used the term "done well".
However, I feel that some folk, with rather entrenched/dyed-in-the-wool 'belt-drive is best' convictions, are just unwilling to entertain that notion. Their ingrained 'belief system' simply won't allow it.
Marco.
My last turntable?
Not a clue. Im far to new to this turntable malarky to be thinking of settling down with only one.
Loads of fun, gaining knowledge, and experimenting to be done before I start thinking of that choice.
At the moment, I dont have enough knowledge or experience to make that "final" choice. Right now, there is probably a turntable out there that I have never heard of that may well be "the one ".
In the last 3 years, Ive had a 3 motor Voyd, Orbe, Oracle, 401, Lp12. Ive enjoyed them all. I now have an SME 10 and a Thorens 124. Both nice. Ive also just bought another 401 , but it needs attention. Loads of fun.
Then, even more fun with arms and cartridges. So many combinations. So little time.
Great hobby this. Fulfills all my needs.
chris@panteg
08-08-2014, 08:47
Yes thanks - quite a few:
Deck (1) - A very complicated model that is allegedly "unrepairable" once broken, Needed a handful of capacitors, a standard op-amp available from Maplin and some re-soldering.
Deck (2) - Needed one NPN transistor, two capacitors and some solder re-working
Deck (3) - A 100V Japanese deck that was plugged into 240V by mistake - needed a new fuse!
Deck (4) - Again, a 110V deck plugged into 240V. Needed one new diode and one new fuse.
Frankly, the only decks that come to mind as being controlled by ASICs are the Technics SP-15 and the ADC Accutrac 4000. Yes, the former can be rendered completely useless if the motor control IC dies but most of the probelms with the latter are down to the optical sensors controlling the mechanism.
Frankly, I think it comes back to the fact that the best turntables are the well designed belt, direct and idler designs; it's not how it's done, but how well it's done.
As a final mischevious thought, though, someone once said to me - "Why did the Japanese spend so much time and money on developing direct drive motors if the best way to spin a record really is using a little Philips motor and a rubber band?" :D
Brilliant post Adam.
Typing this while listening to blood on the tracks on my wheel of steel and it sounds sublime.
I did say I wasn't getting another as was happy with my SRM, but i got inspired by Nathan, and went and bought a TT to do up myself....probably take some time as finances are zero after buying the base deck.....May start a thread on it if I get anywhere near getting it working.:eek:
On second thoughts the Inspire Monarch did sound pretty spectacular when l heard it......:eek:
destroysall
08-08-2014, 20:04
I'm ok with what i got now, sounds very good but not a turntable to fit my ideal.
I can say the same especially for my current turntable: a Technics SL-210 F.G. turntable.
https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5580/14675297847_822c37215f.jpg
https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3856/14861813185_b89bd45c2b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/oDhFhn)
It's a great turntable that has helped me find the joys of vinyl, but I do plan on upgrading soon.
The turntable I've been eyeballing is the swell looking Pro-Ject Debut Carbon Espirit:
http://www.project-audio.com/inhalt/bilder/tn/debutcarbonespritdc.jpg
It's nothing special, but I think it would hold me up well. My dream table will always be the Pro-Ject Xtension 12:
http://www.project-audio.com/inhalt/bilder/xtension_2.jpg
I heard it recently with a EMT TSD15 cartridge amplified by a Leben Phono amp along with the Line Magnetic 518a and DeVore Fidelity Orangutan O/96 speakers. Definitely a dream setup of mine for the future. :)
I have one of the Pro-Ject Debut Carbon Espirit sb tables and they are very good, with there acrylic platter and carbon arm....mine is the bright red version.
I can say the same especially for my current turntable: a Technics SL-210 F.G. turntable.
https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5580/14675297847_822c37215f.jpg
https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3856/14861813185_b89bd45c2b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/oDhFhn)
It's a great turntable that has helped me find the joys of vinyl, but I do plan on upgrading soon.
The turntable I've been eyeballing is the swell looking Pro-Ject Debut Carbon Espirit:
http://www.project-audio.com/inhalt/bilder/tn/debutcarbonespritdc.jpg
It's nothing special, but I think it would hold me up well. My dream table will always be the Pro-Ject Xtension 12:
http://www.project-audio.com/inhalt/bilder/xtension_2.jpg
I heard it recently with a EMT TSD15 cartridge amplified by a Leben Phono amp along with the Line Magnetic 518a and DeVore Fidelity Orangutan O/96 speakers. Definitely a dream setup of mine for the future. :)
Nice T/T, Christopher! I use the 9" version of the same Ortofon arm (RS-212D):
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/673/0eec26.jpg
Marco.
destroysall
08-08-2014, 22:48
I have one of the Pro-Ject Debut Carbon Espirit sb tables and they are very good, with there acrylic platter and carbon arm....mine is the bright red version.I'm not sure which color I'd choose. I like white, but for the sake of matching furniture, I'd probably go with a black. A friend of mine has it in yellow with the acrylic platter and it plays marvelously, especially given the excellent value.
Nice T/T, Christopher! I use the 9" version of the same arm:
Marco.
Fantastic table, Marco! I've always wanted one of the Technics SL-1200 series tables, but it's so hard to find one these days that hasn't been so abused from utilizing it for disc-jockey.
Chris.
Audio Al
09-08-2014, 04:12
No idea at the moment , still playing whit all makes and models ;)
Interesting thread. I have already posted that I am unlikely to change mine but a few comments based on previous posts:
I was actually working at Garrard when the first Japanese DD decks appeared. We got 2, a Sony and a Technics SP10. I don't remember the Sony model number but I ended up buying the SP10 from the scrap man after we had measured, stripped and costed it. I reassembled it and used it for 14 years. The Sony was slightly better (my boss bought -that- from the scrap man...).
The general opinion at Garrard after this was OMG we are screwed, how are we going to do this ourselves at an affordable price in a reasonable time? They were better in terms of speed stability and rumble than anything we could make.
FWIW.
I mounted the Technics on a "solid" plinth with a SME 3009 II Improved arm with Ortofon OM 30 or 40 (I forget).
I learned at Garrard how much ambient vibration is added to the cartridge output using a non-suspended plinth, and experimented quite a lot with positioning, including putting the turntable preamp and power amp in the next room and running speaker cables through the wall.
My conclusion from all this was that the subtle additional reverb produced by this pickup actually sounded nicer than without. In the room sounded nicer than outside, more life and ambience. Despite knowing that this was not on the LP I preferred it and moved the deck back into the room, it picks up the bass more than once too, so that is more impressive as well.
I have owned a LP12, Valhalla, Ittok, Troika (one of the first with reinforcing fillets in the plinth) which I liked. A Roksan Xerxes which I liked and admire the clever engineering, which unfortunately, probably because of the young inexperienced designer, involved some manufacturing/component problems which can spoil it.
Anyway IME as ever it is the implementation which is crucial, not whether it is belt, idler or direct though IME direct has the most potential. OTOH I am sure suspended decks are better at transcribing that which is on the LP whereas non-suspended decks often sound nicer because of the extra euphonies they add, and yes, I did think my SP10 sounded nicer and more real when it was in the room and obviously this nicer, more real sound was being created in the deck, not being revealed by it, if you understand what I mean.
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