Nagaoka question

[mikecole]

I first learned about the the Nagaoka cartridges here on the AoS forum and started doing research into them. I have been using a Dyna 10x5 for about the last 10 years. I am on my third one and it is getting a bit long in the tooth I think. This led me to DaveyW's Vinyl Corner (http://daveyw.edsstuff.org/). He had needledrops for a bunch of different MM, MI and MC carts. I downloaded all of the ones that I thought I might be interested in (unfortunately no Nagaoka MP300 or MP500 though). When I first listened to them, I had liked the Denon DL S1 the most. I wanted to be be a bit unbiased when trying to find some favorites though, so I had my wife assist me with some blind listening. The surprise came when the Denon did not get chosen. My top three picks, in order, turned out to be the London Jubilee, the Denon 103R with Expert Stylus Paratrace tip and the Ortofon 2M Black. I cannot afford the first two and the Ortofon is a bit on the cool side compared to the other two. So the Nagaoka 300 or Nagaoka 500 may still be in the running according to the many descriptions I have read. Can anybody who has heard some of these carts be able to tell me if the Nagaokas lean towards the sound of the London or the Denon? The cart will be used on an Ekos 1 tonearm on an LP12 and into my new Croft Integrated and on to a pair of Harbeth P3ESRs.

[snapper]

Hi Mike, can't comment on your chosen Nagaoka cartridges, I've only used an MP11.

What I can say is, I use a Denon 301 MKII on an Ekos arm and LP12. To my ears it's nicely detailed without being harsh or bright. I'm enjoying so much that I've not used my Akiva in quite a while.

Will send you a PM shortly.

[julesd68]

Hi Mike,

I used to own a Nagaoka MP-50 and previously an MP-10 ... The MP-50 is the forerunner to the current top of the range MP-500. I enjoyed my MP-50 very much - it's a smooth, even-handed cartridge with a lovely rich midband presentation and excellent sound-stage. No great weaknesses but some might find it too lush in the wrong system or prefer a cart with a more 'explicit' treble.

However, I don't believe that at roughly £600 in the UK the MP-500 represents value for money at all, so depends what price you can get it at in the USA. I found that my Garrott P77i had all the strengths of the MP-50 but with a marginally more dynamic presentation; it's also much cheaper. Saying that, it also has a slight dip in the treble ...

Is there anything you don't like about the 10x5? I heard one for the first time recently in a friend's system and was very impressed indeed ...

[Macca]

Ihave the MP50 (Jules old one) albeit fitted with a new MP500 stylus and an MP11. In the '90s I used an MP30 so I'm a bit of a Nagaoka fan. I also have the Ortofon 540 Mk11 which I believe is the forerunner of the Black. I prefer the MP50. It is a little rich sounding but it doesn't sacrifice detail in the process. I agree with Jules that £600 is a lot of money to spend for an MM cart and a new stylus will set you a back £220. Also I have read that lifespan of the stylus is not as high on Nags as on other carts but I have no idea how true that is. I have also heard an Ortofon SPU Gold and that to me sounded similar in character to the MP50 if that is any help to you.

[mikecole]

Snapper, thanks for the PM. Answered you there.

julesd68 and macca - thanks for the info, guys. I think I can get the MP500 for $700 and the MP300 for $600. If I want to take a chance of ordering straight from Japan, I think I can get the MP500 for about $500-$600. Still a bit of cash to part with though. There is no way to ever be sure what a cart will sound like, especially since you have to factor in the system it will be used in, hence the questions. There is nothing wrong with the 10x5, that is why I have used one for the last ten years. After hearing the needle drops though, I was thinking I wanted something that is just tiny bit more lush or maybe just more mid-rangey. My current cart is probably ready to go since I find that sibilance has been increasing and the top end is not so clean sounding in comparison to the highs on my digital setup. I can trade in my cart for a new 10x5 for about $360, so there is that to consider. One of the reasons the Nagaoka seemed a good deal is that after I purchase one, I just have to buy a new stylus when it wears out and this costs just slightly less that trading in my 10x5. And I don't have to remount it :-)

[Elephantears]

I got an MP-500 from Japan a couple of years ago because I was thinking of changing direction to a Croft Pre in my first system and using the MM phono stage. However it didn't happen so I sold the MP-500 unopened. The guy who bought it had been using a Dynavector 10 x 5 and he was thrilled by the leap in performance he got from the Nag. I always regretted selling it without giving it a listen, but I'll be getting another in a couple of weeks so will be able to report then.

[mikecole]

Eelephantears - thanks for that. It is heartening to hear that the guy thought it was a better cart. Makes me think maybe I am on the right track.

I was also thinking that maybe the output of the 10x5 was not giving the Croft enough input oomph, so I thought of getting a small step-up for the 10x5 just to see what would happen. It should arrive next week sometime. I was thinking that if Glen used a London, then maybe the 5mv output may have influenced his design somewhat. I am probably wrong (and the Nag is also similarly lower output), but thought it would be interesting to try.

[DSJR]

The 10XV nowadays is a bit grubby sounding, although it does get a little better as it beds in. It's my opinion that a 2M Bronze would see it off frankly..

If you have access to a good step-up, have a think about the new Ortofon MC's, as one of these may well give you the 'drive' of the 10X, but clearer and better high frequencies possibly?

[mikecole]

Well, damn, I guess I should have checked the mail yesterday. I got my modified MC step-up preamp back from KAB. He modified it to give an output of 5mv into the Croft. In addition, he changed the input to 2K ohms which is a good match for the 10x5 rather than 47K. This is in line with what I had done to my previous Vista Audio phono stage. At any rate, so far this has taken care of the things I have been complaining about. All of the symptoms seemed to have been related to an anemic input into the Croft. The 10x5 thru the Croft now sounds like what I was hoping to hear originally. It is dynamic and tonally colorful, great bass with a nice full sound to it. I HATE having another box and set of cables hooked up though - kind of defeats the purpose of an integrated amp. I think I will still be looking into the Nagaoka as the descriptions still make it sound like something I would like. If I get a wild hair, I may take up Snapper's suggestion of a Denon 301 Mark II with a Denon AU310 step-up since I have to have a separate box attached anyway. Although results from my listening test suggest a Denon 103R - maybe I could do the ESCO retip at a later date.

[Ubik]

yes, it can be a bit too lush, at least in my 1210+jelco and with a warm preamplifier. I replaced it with a AT150MLX, much better fit.
To be honest I think the MP300 is largerly overpriced. Especially after having heard what a at150MLX can do.
Its system sinergy, at the end

[julesd68]

Well, damn, I guess I should have checked the mail yesterday. I got my modified MC step-up preamp back from KAB. He modified it to give an output of 5mv into the Croft. In addition, he changed the input to 2K ohms which is a good match for the 10x5 rather than 47K. This is in line with what I had done to my previous Vista Audio phono stage. At any rate, so far this has taken care of the things I have been complaining about. All of the symptoms seemed to have been related to an anemic input into the Croft. The 10x5 thru the Croft now sounds like what I was hoping to hear originally. It is dynamic and tonally colorful, great bass with a nice full sound to it. I HATE having another box and set of cables hooked up though - kind of defeats the purpose of an integrated amp. I think I will still be looking into the Nagaoka as the descriptions still make it sound like something I would like. If I get a wild hair, I may take up Snapper's suggestion of a Denon 301 Mark II with a Denon AU310 step-up since I have to have a separate box attached anyway. Although results from my listening test suggest a Denon 103R - maybe I could do the ESCO retip at a later date.

That's a good result - I was going to ask if you had the option to play with loading ... It certainly makes a difference as I found out a few weeks back when helping a friend install his new 10x5. At 2K the cart should certainly sound less thin at the top end. I guess most people use the 10x5 at 47K but Dynavector's recommendation is actually >1K ohms.

[mikecole]

Ubik, a bit of lushness is probably kind of what I am after, but if it comes at the expense of PRaT, I am not sure it would be worth it.
juled68, that is what happened the last time I tried it and it seems to have helped out this time also.

[Floyddroid]

Nowt amarra with a 2M blue. ticks a lot of boxes methinks.