View Full Version : How long and thick is yours?
The Black Adder
23-06-2014, 15:14
Hi all.
This is for anyone with a length longer than 3m of speaker cable?
Who has the longest run of speaker cable?
What gauge?
Any negative effects using longer runs?
What make/type are you using and recommend?
Cheers
Joe
bronzeage
23-06-2014, 15:41
My speaker cable uses 3.5mm copper, Atlas Ascent MKII, 4metres long each side.
It's damn good, waaaay better than TQ Black. Only got it because of an end-of-line bargain from dealer, did not cost me much more than TQ did (which has been moved over to secondary system).
How is it better? Much more 'solid' sound, better detail retreival, tighter bass, blacker silience, more natural.
I imagine there are lots of other good'uns out there. One day I'm might try some Van Damm 4mm to compare, certainly the 2.5mm is not in the same league, at least not in my system.
That fattest cable I had in the house on trial was Vermouth Black Curse - damn, that really is thick and heavy, could probably hold up a suspension bridge in an emergency.
The Black Adder
23-06-2014, 15:57
Cool... I use the Van Damme 6mm (10awg) stuff... it's monsta.
sq225917
23-06-2014, 18:38
silver ribbon, 3m long .75mm x 6mm
Depending on which amplifier I use, the speaker leads range from the sublime to the ridiculous:
Amplifier 1, situated near the TT, tuner, CD player and preamp
Connected to the speakers via 6m and 15m lengths of QED 79 (2.52, 20A rating).
Amplifier 2, monoblocks situated directly behind each speaker and connected to the preamp by long balanced interconnects
Connected to each speaker via 0.6m of doubled-up QED 79 cable (therefore 40A rating).
Mark Grant
24-06-2014, 11:29
Amplifier 1, situated near the TT, tuner, CD player and preamp
Connected to the speakers via 6m and 15m lengths of QED 79 (6mm2, 20A rating).
Possibly a typo :) as the QED 79 strand is 2.5mm2
http://www.qed.co.uk/speaker_cables/performance/qed_original_cable.html
Spectral Morn
24-06-2014, 11:40
In order to avoid having equipment between the speakers, which will upset soundstaging and imaging, I use 6 m and 7 m lengths of cable. The 6m is Atlas Mavros and the 7 m is Qed Genesis Silver spiral. I also use 5m runs of XLO Type 6.
Never had an issue with these lengths but I do recall a customer of mine (many years ago when I was in the audio trade) who bought 20 m runs of Silver Spiral and his AV amp regularly went into a thermal induced shut down..... he had a very big room.
Regards Neil
talisman2
24-06-2014, 11:50
bit of a personal question don't you think ??
l am using some Microphonics loudspeaker cable, which is around 7m long (each side) and very thin, added some Nackamichi Banana plugs from a well known auction site- result, a very nice set for buttons.:cool:
The Black Adder
24-06-2014, 13:27
Cool lads.
l am using some Microphonics loudspeaker cable, which is around 7m long (each side) and very thin, added some Nackamichi Banana plugs from a well known auction site- result, a very nice set for buttons.:cool:
I've still got some of that, it's good cable.. shame it's no longer available.
So does anyone take any notice of the 'recommended' length/gauge such as:
Speaker Impedance
8 Ohm Load
4 Ohm Load
Wire Gauge
Distance (ft)
Distance (ft)
18 AWG
10
5
16 AWG
20
10
14 AWG
35
18
12 AWG
60
30
10 AWG
100
50
Found here for example... http://www.audioholics.com/audio-video-cables/speaker-cable-gauge
Just a thought.
icehockeyboy
24-06-2014, 14:21
In order to avoid having equipment between the speakers, which will upset soundstaging and imaging.
Regards Neil
Not according to Russ Andrews it wouldn't.
The Black Adder
24-06-2014, 14:43
Not according to Russ Andrews it wouldn't.
lol.. well I must admit he should be selling the idea that it does seeing as he sells speaker cable at £30k a pop.
Seriously though, my thoughts about this is that having your kit in-between the speakers isn't the best place but where is the best place? I'm thinking of putting mine on the opposite wall to one side. Thing is my cabling would need to be 10m opposed to 2.5.
Russ Andrews sells whacky expensive cables so it is in his interest to suggest you only need a couple of metres per side. Personally I've always used about 5 metre lengths and have always found thicker cables sound better than thin.
awkwardbydesign
24-06-2014, 15:11
Mine are less than 2 metres, but definitely thick!
http://s26.postimg.org/xyjxmojnd/Polk_Cables_001.jpg
Although my plugs look better than that. :eek:
Possibly a typo :) as the QED 79 strand is 2.5mm2
http://www.qed.co.uk/speaker_cables/performance/qed_original_cable.html
My mistake. :doh:
The strands are 0.2mm in diameter, so each strand has a CSA of 0.03mm2, thus 79 strands have a total CSA of 2.48mm2.
Mine are less than 2 metres, but definitely thick!
http://s26.postimg.org/xyjxmojnd/Polk_Cables_001.jpg
Although my plugs look better than that. :eek:
Blimey, that looks like it is going to short out any second!
The Barbarian
24-06-2014, 21:42
Just swapped back to 2x 4mtr Kimber 8TC {Original Blue/Blk}
The Grand Wazoo
25-06-2014, 00:00
Mine are less than 2 metres, but definitely thick!
http://s26.postimg.org/xyjxmojnd/Polk_Cables_001.jpg
Although my plugs look better than that. :eek:
Monitor Audio / Polk Audio speaker cable bunched up - a really fantastic sounding cable. Did you risk life and limb by making these up or did you get someone to do it for you?!
For info, lots of insulation need to be removed from these wires to allow them to be doubled up (and more) effectively. Snag: given half a chance, the fumes from over-heating or burning the insulation will kill you four or five times over!!!
Cool lads.
I've still got some of that, it's good cable.. shame it's no longer available.
So does anyone take any notice of the 'recommended' length/gauge such as:
Speaker Impedance
8 Ohm Load
4 Ohm Load
Wire Gauge
Distance (ft)
Distance (ft)
18 AWG
10
5
16 AWG
20
10
14 AWG
35
18
12 AWG
60
30
10 AWG
100
50
Found here for example... http://www.audioholics.com/audio-video-cables/speaker-cable-gauge
Just a thought.
Useful information; thanks Joe.
As a rule of thumb it is usually suggested that the loop resistance of speaker cables should be no more than 5% of the speaker impedance (as measured at the terminals; that is including the crossover network). So for a nominally 8 Ohm speaker, that is 0.4 Ohm. Obviously the speaker impedance will vary (often drastically) from this figure.
Bob Stuart (of Meridian fame) suggests a far more stringent requirement on the impedance of speaker cables: regardless of length, the speaker cable should present an impedance of no more than 0.1 Ohm + 3uH; suggesting thick multistranded and twisted cable.
Clearly it all depends on the amplifier used as well the speakers being used. The recommendation of low resistance is not so much that power will be lost in the cable (it will, but it is miniscule), rather the cable, whose impedance appears in series with the output impedance of the amplifier, should not degrade the damping factor of the amplifier too much. Assuming the amplifier's output impedance is say 0.05 Ohm (quite typical for a solid state amplifier), adding a speaker cable whose loop resistance is 0.4 Ohm, means the effective damping factor with a speaker with a nominal 8 Ohm impedance is 17.8 which is quite sufficient.
In my case, using 16m of QED79 cable, the loop resistance is 0.256 Ohm + 10.56uH. So with a (modified) Quad 405-2 amplifier, the output impedance is 0.28 Ohm which with my Quad 57 speakers, with a nominal impedance of 10 Ohm, the damping factor is no more than 36, and at the upper frequencies is as low as ~ 5.4. Does this matter? No, because the 'drivers' in Quad ESL (the diaphragms) are of such low mass they cause very little back emf to be generated and thus be damped.
One other and important matter is that some solid state amplifiers do not incorporate a Zobel network. For these amplifiers the matching to speakers and the associated speaker cables can be critical to the amplifiers stability. Most solid-state amplifiers do incorporate a Zobel network, but a few designs do not (the designer has chosen to omit a Zobel network for good reasons). Two notable designs are the Naim series of power amplifiers and the NVA designs. The Naim amplifiers require the use of high inductance speaker leads, whereas NVA recommend the use of low capacitance speaker leads. Both of these manufacturers provide and recommend the use of their own speaker cable; and it is important that these recommendations be followed.
awkwardbydesign
25-06-2014, 10:52
Blimey, that looks like it is going to short out any second!
:lol: It does need careful checking before using it, and I wouldn't want to move it around too often, but it's been fine so far. Oh, and it needs a Zobel on the end to compensate for the very high capacitance. But in the end, it sounds better than anything else I've tried.
According to the user manual for my HK930 receiver the best thing to use for speaker cable is lamp flex. And you should be fine up to a fifty foot run.
Life was a lot simpler (and cheaper) back in 1973....
The Barbarian
25-06-2014, 12:43
Life was a lot simpler (and cheaper) back in 1973....
Even more so in the 60's..
The Black Adder
25-06-2014, 13:06
According to the user manual for my HK930 receiver the best thing to use for speaker cable is lamp flex. And you should be fine up to a fifty foot run.
Life was a lot simpler (and cheaper) back in 1973....
Maybe we need a 'Best Lamp flex' thread :) - A proper back to 1973 cabling thread.
Maybe we need a 'Best Lamp flex' thread :) - A proper back to 1973 cabling thread.
Quad used 10A (?) lawnmower cable at their demonstrations. I'm sure the bright orange coloured cladding made all the difference!
I think we should arrange a What Hi Fi style 'Lampflex Supertest', pitting the 10 top lampflexes against each other. What will win 5 stars??!!
or not...
Wakefield Turntables
25-06-2014, 20:13
I been experimenting with x2 runs of 2 meter 4mm solid core pure silver 99.99%. I'm not bothered about 5/6/7N purity as I cant tell the difference. Its shielded and and no additional connectors (banana, spades, RCA's) or any solder in site. They sound bloody lovely. This may end up in my Valve setup.
I been experimenting with x2 runs of 2 meter 4mm solid core pure silver 99.99%. I'm not bothered about 5/6/7N purity as I cant tell the difference. Its shielded and and no additional connectors (banana, spades, RCA's) or any solder in site. They sound bloody lovely. This may end up in my Valve setup.
Is that a CSA of 4mm2? That implies a diameter of 2.26mm, so if solid core those cables will be quite stiff.
Wakefield Turntables
25-06-2014, 20:58
Is that a CSA of 4mm2? That implies a diameter of 2.26mm, so if solid core those cables will be quite stiff.
They are 4mm in diameter according to my calipers. So I have four of these at 2 meters a piece. Stiff, yep but they have to bend very much, so they ok! :D
They are 4mm in diameter according to my calipers. So I have four of these at 2 meters a piece. Stiff, yep but they have to bend very much, so they ok! :D
Yep - that's stiff, but 'formable'. How are they insulated?
Wakefield Turntables
25-06-2014, 21:42
5mm teflon cover and some simple braid and a bit of heat shrink cover. I s'pose I could do with some EMI/RFI protection as well :scratch:
Wakefield Turntables
25-06-2014, 21:43
Any top tips Barry?
You shouldn't need to shield speaker cables and I can't think of any that are.
You shouldn't need to shield speaker cables and I can't think of any that are.
But that's not to stop anyone using coaxial cable for speaker leads and connecting the screen to the 'earthy' end.
No, in fact I remember Max Townsend did exactly that with multiple runs paralleled together.
I use 8m lengths of the Van Damme blue 6mm sq cable, and to my ears there is no degradation in sound caused as a consequence of the longer cable runs. In fact, I think the system sounds better further away from the speakers due to reduced microphonic pickup by my valves and turnrtable.
Only downside is increased cabling cost as a result, but a better layout for the room and better sound for me..
Alex
I don't think 8m is particularly long if, as you have done, you use large diameter copper cabling.
Sovereign
28-06-2014, 08:08
I been experimenting with x2 runs of 2 meter 4mm solid core pure silver 99.99%. I'm not bothered about 5/6/7N purity as I cant tell the difference. Its shielded and and no additional connectors (banana, spades, RCA's) or any solder in site. They sound bloody lovely. This may end up in my Valve setup.
Interesting read, where did you source these from?
I been experimenting with x2 runs of 2 meter 4mm solid core pure silver 99.99%. I'm not bothered about 5/6/7N purity as I cant tell the difference. Its shielded and and no additional connectors (banana, spades, RCA's) or any solder in site. They sound bloody lovely. This may end up in my Valve setup.
How are they shielded Andy? This statement appears to be in conflict with posts 33/34.
Wakefield Turntables
28-06-2014, 14:43
Interesting read, where did you source these from?
I have a contact that can get a hold of such things!
How are they shielded Andy? This statement appears to be in conflict with posts 33/34.
Yep it is! :doh: They are simply covered in teflon (5mm) and a simple expandable braid over the top with a little heat shrink over the top. I must have had other things on my mind when I posted that!
The Black Adder
28-06-2014, 16:11
Who is your contact and what does he doo
Wakefield Turntables
28-06-2014, 18:49
Who is your contact and what does he doo
Y ?
It Cost How Much!?!
14-07-2014, 09:47
I use Spectral MH-770 speaker cables in my main system, which are 35ft long (just over 10M), they are like bl..dy snakes and heavy. Great cables though. The second system is much more modest 3M silver cables.
Sovereign
14-07-2014, 18:17
How do the silver cables compare to your existing cables mate, were you not using TQ UB?
I have a contact that can get a hold of such things!
Yep it is! :doh: They are simply covered in teflon (5mm) and a simple expandable braid over the top with a little heat shrink over the top. I must have had other things on my mind when I posted that!
Wakefield Turntables
14-07-2014, 18:32
How do the silver cables compare to your existing cables mate, were you not using TQ UB?
Well TBH extremely well. They have seen off Nordost Reference SPM, Black Rhodium (various incarnations), high end QED stuff, and some stuff made up by Yannis. I have never used TQ stuff. I decided to use pure silver for the simple reason that you can't "bullshit" about it. Its simply silver with teflon shield and a bit heat wrap over the end. By using this simple design I get rid of the following bullshit
1. Solder content
2. RCA/XLR connections and how they should be conncted.
ok i have not taken into consideration lots of other variables but I decided to just see how things panned out and I like what I'm hearing. There are two major drawbacks.
1. Silver oxidises very quick so I use the teflon as an air tight tube environment (I seal the end with some silicone). Sealing with silicone acts as a dampener and creates an air tight seal.
2. Silver is very soft so its a good idea to leave the cables inserted and not to repetively pull them in and out of the female RCA sockets.
I appreciate that this is a very simplistic way of doing things but it works for me and I couldn't give a monkey's about what the various cable numpties think with regards to my experiments. So there. :baa:
Well TBH extremely well. They have seen off Nordost Reference SPM, Black Rhodium (various incarnations), high end QED stuff, and some stuff made up by Yannis. I have never used TQ stuff. I decided to use pure silver for the simple reason that you can't "bullshit" about it. Its simply silver with teflon shield and a bit heat wrap over the end. By using this simple design I get rid of the following bullshit
1. Solder content
2. RCA/XLR connections and how they should be conncted.
ok i have not taken into consideration lots of other variables but I decided to just see how things panned out and I like what I'm hearing. There are two major drawbacks.
1. Silver oxidises very quick so I use the teflon as an air tight tube environment (I seal the end with some silicone). Sealing with silicone acts as a dampener and creates an air tight seal.
2. Silver is very soft so its a good idea to leave the cables inserted and not to repetively pull them in and out of the female RCA sockets.
I appreciate that this is a very simplistic way of doing things but it works for me and I couldn't give a monkey's about what the various cable numpties think with regards to my experiments. So there. :baa:
So how have you connected the silver wire to the equipment sockets Andy?
Wakefield Turntables
15-07-2014, 16:03
Straight into the RCA. The core terminates into a male RCA if you see what I mean. It looks a but messy but seems to work. The core diameter is just wide enough to fit into the female RCA on the amp's, speakers etc.
Straight into the RCA. The core terminates into a male RCA if you see what I mean. It looks a but messy but seems to work. The core diameter is just wide enough to fit into the female RCA on the amp's, speakers etc.
That I understand, but how do you connect to the outer part of the RCA socket?
Wakefield Turntables
15-07-2014, 19:33
Well the silver is quite stiff so it can be bent into place. It can be bent into a "S" shape or a coil, both work well.
Again people probably laughing their arses off at me but I dont really care :)
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