View Full Version : Direct drive best?
I know that my ancient Luxman PD 264 is not an absolute favourite of all on this forum. Indeed I have been looking at alternatives. Currently on Ebay there is a project Xperience. I thought it looked good, and then checked the stats provided - wow and flutter 0.08%. Checked for the Luxman - 0.035%. I find this surprising, my Luxman was made in the 70's and on this criterion outperforms a table made in a later millenium! Surely this just means DD's are a superior drive?
Wakefield Turntables
21-06-2014, 15:37
Technics 1210's offer >0.025%, at these levels do you really think you can tell a difference?
Gordon Steadman
21-06-2014, 15:45
I'm not sure its that simple and those sort of stats don't tell the whole story. Direct Drives can be wonderful of course but then so can some with rubber bands. Its not just the motor but the whole package.
Technics 1210's offer >0.025%, at these levels do you really think you can tell a difference?
I am sure that the difference is entirely imperceptible. The point is that a technology from 40 years ago is capable of outperforming that produced today. Surely, I cannot be the only one surprised at that and the seeming preference for belt driven TT's?
walpurgis
21-06-2014, 15:48
There is no 'Best' type of TT drive. There are excellent and dire examples of each. Just use what takes your fancy! :)
I'm not sure its that simple and those sort of stats don't tell the whole story. Direct Drives can be wonderful of course but then so can some with rubber bands. Its not just the motor but the whole package.
Gordon, I agree entirely. I am not for a moment suggesting that my 40 year old Luxman would sonically outperform the far more modern Project. But I am surprised at this statistic and wonder why more turntable manufacturers do not offer DD options.
A turntable only needs to do two things and revolving at the correct speed is one of them. DD is a good way to do that.
Gordon Steadman
21-06-2014, 16:33
Surely, I cannot be the only one surprised at that and the seeming preference for belt driven TT's?
Its dead easy and cheap to make a belt drive TT, I've done it myself!! So could you.
The quality thereof is a different matter of course but I'm quite sure that economics plays a large part.
The Barbarian
21-06-2014, 16:33
I love these topics they are so funny.
sq225917
22-06-2014, 11:06
TT's vary in quality, sometimes in line with price, sometimes not. There's been no real improvement in TT design other than the introduction of processor based speed controllers in the last twenty years IMHO, and even these can be badly implemented.
Wakefield Turntables
22-06-2014, 11:23
I am sure that the difference is entirely imperceptible. The point is that a technology from 40 years ago is capable of outperforming that produced today. Surely, I cannot be the only one surprised at that and the seeming preference for belt driven TT's?
Point taken. My 50+ year old Garrard 301 pisses over many of today's so called "high-end" designs. In fact my Quad ESL 57's and Tannpy MG15" (both over 40years old) easily outperform most of todays gumph. Thats the beauty of this hobby. It never really makes any sense (a bit like this post)!!!!!
Gordon, I agree entirely. I am not for a moment suggesting that my 40 year old Luxman would sonically outperform the far more modern Project. But I am surprised at this statistic and wonder why more turntable manufacturers do not offer DD options.
Well for one DD is a lot more expensive especially in a small production run. For two it was for a long time the tradition that an Englishman should rotate his platter using a rubber band connected to a simple AC motor, not with such technological frippery like magnets and quartz crystals. That was what the Japanese and Americans did 'and they are foreigners don'tchaknow?' and were therefore considered a mite odd (and wrong). Then we got the internet and horizons started to expand a bit, but it will take some time yet.
For me it's like this -
Back in the 70's, a turntable was plonked on whatever level (ish) surface was to hand and if the sound didn't 'howl-round' at playing volumes, that was all there was to it!
Then the infamous LP12 fruitbox came along, swiftly followed by the Ittok tonearm, which on launch was the worst possible match for it, it now seems. This bloody combination bollixed the whole vinyl scene up in the UK for years but ONE GOOD THING came out of it. This for me was the need for correct support and siting for ALL turntables at ALL volume levels.
What this means now is that the better 1970's direct drives, especially the hugely feedback prone models like the Technics SL1100 and original 1200 models, some Sony's from this era and both the Micro DDX/DQX1000 decks, can be positively transformed sonically by careful support and siting well away from the speakers. A simple mat change here and there and little else is often all that's required. I haven't mentioned the PL71 because I don't ever remember dealing with them (maybe I did but it doesn't look all that posh and that's what mattered then).
The vintage belt drives I'm fondest of work best with low tracking weight cartridges, as these don't upset the drive. Regular belt replacements are essential though. I'm a huge NAS fan, as the belts don't age much and platter inertia on the bigger models swamps W&F effectively for me at any rate.
Idlers? Love 'em in a good plinth system, but they're not as quiet in mid bass upwards as other drives unless you're VERY lucky (why do you think rubber bands and direct drives replaced them in the 70's?).
The Black Adder
22-06-2014, 13:22
DD is defo the best IMO over belt drive... My deck is a belt driven idler drive and I wouldn't swap it for anything.
Wakefield Turntables
22-06-2014, 13:39
DD is defo the best IMO over belt drive... My deck is a belt driven idler drive and I wouldn't swap it for anything.
That must be the most contradictory post I've ever read ;)
I know that my ancient Luxman PD 264 is not an absolute favourite of all on this forum. Indeed I have been looking at alternatives. Currently on Ebay there is a project Xperience. I thought it looked good, and then checked the stats provided - wow and flutter 0.08%. Checked for the Luxman - 0.035%. I find this surprising, my Luxman was made in the 70's and on this criterion outperforms a table made in a later millenium! Surely this just means DD's are a superior drive?
Sorry, but your conclusion is entirely illogical - you take one figure from one product and extrapolate it as a blanket endorsement for every design that uses roughly the same kind of drive technology. You just can't draw such a conclusion from so little evidence.
All direct drive turntables are not the same, the motors are designed and built differently and the way those motors are powered and controlled also differs significantly. In addition, a turntable is a lot more than just the way the platter is rotated.
A turntable only needs to do two things and revolving at the correct speed is one of them.
I disagree - rotating at the correct speed is one of the things a TT has to do, but it has to do significantly more than one other!
DD is a good way to do that.
It can be, but it is no guarantee of success.
I disagree - rotating at the correct speed is one of the things a TT has to do, but it has to do significantly more than one other!
It can be, but it is no guarantee of success.
Rotate at correct speed and be immune from vibration both internal and external. Easier to say it than to achieve it granted, but what else does it need to do?
sq225917
22-06-2014, 14:06
It needs to rotate at the right speed, constantly.
It needs to retain precise geometric stability between between the arm mount point and the record spindle.
It needs to be immune to all vibration.
The last one is the big topic.
You can't generalise between drive types in decks. Just because a good example exists of DD doesn't make them all good. The same goes for belt drive decks, some have impeccable speed stability, some are shit. Lazy engineering, a closed mind and penny pinching are the enemy of good vinyl replay.
Wakefield Turntables
22-06-2014, 14:07
Who really gives a monkey's at the end of the day so long as you get musical enjoyment :sucks:
walpurgis
22-06-2014, 14:15
Who really gives a monkey's at the end of the day so long as you get musical enjoyment :sucks:
Exactly!
fiddlemaker
22-06-2014, 15:35
It needs to rotate at the right speed, constantly.
It needs to retain precise geometric stability between between the arm mount point and the record spindle.
It needs to be immune to all vibration.
The last one is the big topic.........
Yes the last one is the biggie.
You might rephrase/expand it slightly: the stylus should feel no vibrations other than those generated by the record groove. It has to be free from the influence of vibrations generated by the record player itself as well as external vibrations.....
Clive197
22-06-2014, 15:45
Who really gives a monkey's at the end of the day so long as you get musical enjoyment :sucks:
Hear, hear old boy
Who really gives a monkey's at the end of the day so long as you get musical enjoyment :sucks:
I get great musical enjoyment from a Garrard AT6 with SCM12M cartridge - on 7" singles anyway :lol: But that's not what you meant, is it?
WOStantonCS100
22-06-2014, 17:55
Don't shoot the messenger:
Harry Weisfeld of VPI, maker of, arguably, some of the best belt drive turntables in the world:
“I believe direct drive is the way to go when it’s done correctly. I’ve always been a huge fan of the concept, but you can’t get a belt or a pulley perfect, no matter how hard you try. A belt-drive turntable consists of multiple mistakes and you’re always dealing with multiple tolerance errors. Direct drive eliminates these issues.”
His answer to dealing with the complexities of belt-drive:
https://vpiindustries.com/images/classicdirect/CLASSIC-DIRECT-FOR-WEB.jpg
Who really gives a monkey's at the end of the day so long as you get musical enjoyment :sucks:
:read::yesbruv:
Don't shoot the messenger:
Harry Weisfeld of VPI, maker of, arguably, some of the best belt drive turntables in the world:
“I believe direct drive is the way to go when it’s done correctly. I’ve always been a huge fan of the concept, but you can’t get a belt or a pulley perfect, no matter how hard you try. A belt-drive turntable consists of multiple mistakes and you’re always dealing with multiple tolerance errors. Direct drive eliminates these issues.”
His answer to dealing with the complexities of belt-drive:
https://vpiindustries.com/images/classicdirect/CLASSIC-DIRECT-FOR-WEB.jpg
Wow.... So VPI have made a D/D turntable now? That'll be bloody awesome!!! How much is it? Oh, and I wonder which motor unit it uses (Technics?) or have VPI designed their own from scratch?
In terms of the OP, "best" is only ever that which is considered as such by an individual user, in terms of what provides him or her with the most musical enjoyment. Simples...
However, "best", in terms of that which is ultimately most accurate, is another thing entirely! ;)
Marco.
Beobloke
23-06-2014, 07:07
I think the correct answer was given back on page 1....
There is no 'Best' type of TT drive. There are excellent and dire examples of each. Just use what takes your fancy! :)
I completely agree. However, if one interprets "best" as meaning 'most accurate' [i.e. extracting maximum musical information from records with minimal coloration], then that opens up a whole different type of discussion..... :eyebrows:
Marco.
Wow.... So VPI have made a D/D turntable now? That'll be bloody awesome!!! How much is it? Oh, and I wonder which motor unit it uses (Technics?) or have VPI designed their own from scratch?
In terms of the OP, "best" is only ever that which is considered as such by an individual user, in terms of what provides him or her with the most musical enjoyment. Simples...
However, "best", in terms of that which is ultimately most accurate, is another thing entirely! ;)
Marco.
VPI have developed their own motor for their Direct Drive turntable which I believe eliminates cogging. I was speaking to someone the other day who has heard it and they were extremely impressed with it, but at £30K it should be good!:eek:
, but at £30K it should be good!:eek:
Do you get an arm thrown in for £30K or is that extra?
I bet that in reality it is marginally - just marginally - better than a stock sl1200....
I think that comes with their 3D printed arm. It would be interesting Martin to compare the VPI with the Technics. As with all the VPI TT as you go up the range they have a bigger meatier sound and a larger soundstage. Not heard a Technics TT so cannot make an opinion on sound comparison.
Hay Martin I am in Penkridge so I am probably only round the corner from you.
Hay Martin I am in Penkridge so I am probably only round the corner from you.
I'm in Stoke so not exactly just round the corner but certainly only up the road a little bit ;)
The Barbarian
23-06-2014, 12:49
I'm in Stoke so not exactly just round the corner
Is that where they say coowk, boowk & loowk instead if cook, book & look?
:D
Is that where they say coowk, boowk & loowk instead if cook, book & look?
:D
Yes it is. And water is waiter, a bus is a buzz and home is pronounced 'wom'. It takes some getting used to.
sq225917
23-06-2014, 18:38
3d printed arm, what an utter piece of shit.
Wakefield Turntables
23-06-2014, 19:35
3d printed arm, what an utter piece of shit.
:rfl:
Sorry, Simon, what are you referring to? :scratch:
Marco.
PaulStewart
23-06-2014, 19:41
3d printed arm, what an utter piece of shit.
Sorry Simon I can't see the problem. It's an ideal process for small volume, high precision objects. The materiel VPI have chosen is epoxy based and ultra rigid and the arm has continuous fabrication from headshell to counterweight. I don't think it could get much better in terms of engineering. :scratch:
3d printed arm, what an utter piece of shit.
I think your statement is a bit strong Simon unless of course you have heard one and that is you opinion. I must say VPI are an innovative company and are always trying new materials and designs to get the best possible sound out of their turntables and would not use a 3D printed tonearm if it was shit as you say.
For many years VPI only built belt driven turntables but they did know that DD turntables could be very good indeed if they could get the engineering right hence their new DD turntable. The company has used all sorts of different materials for platters and tonearms, seeking to get the very best they could in engineering and materials.
Those who have actually heard the VPI 3D printed tonearm have given it very good reviews and I must admit it is great to see a company pushing the boundaries with processes and materials.
None of the HiFi equipment we use today would be where it is, or sound as good if it were not for companies like VPI with a pioneering attitude towards technology.
Could someone please tell me what a "3D printed tonearm" is?
One of my pet hates is techy/engineering terms being bandied about/passed off as supposedly 'common knowledge', when it's only such for those who choose to/need to know that kind of stuff!
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
23-06-2014, 20:32
I would have thought it self explanatory, a tonearm that has been produced and printed using the latest in printing technology i.e. 3D printing, just google the term, it's a HUGE subject. :D
Could someone please tell me what a "3D printed tonearm" is?
One of my pet hates is techy/engineering terms being bandied about/passed off as supposedly 'common knowledge', when it's only such for those who choose to/need to know that kind of stuff!
Marco.
Here you go Marco - VPI,s own explanation.
http://vpiindustries.com/tone-3d.htm
I would have thought it self explanatory, a tonearm that has been produced and printed using the latest in printing technology i.e. 3D printing, just google the term, it's a HUGE subject. :D
Well, I've never heard of it. It might be a "huge subject" for those into that kind of thing, but for everyone else....
So, educate me, what has printing got to do with tonearms? I don't understand the connection. I've heard of printing t-shirts and newspapers, that's about it!! Oh, and why is '3D printing' considered as 'inferior'? 'Inferior' to what else exactly?? :scratch:
Marco.
bit of a concern though:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-22421185
For those who may be interested.
http://vpiindustries.com/table-direct.htm
Although metal deposition 3d printing seems to be the way to go:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_metal_laser_sintering
Here you go Marco - VPI,s own explanation.
http://vpiindustries.com/tone-3d.htm
Thanks, Jim. So why would Simon be referring to that process in derogatory terms? What's 'shit' about it? :scratch:
Marco.
Thanks, Jim. So why would Simon be referring to that process in derogatory terms? What's 'shit' about it? :scratch:
Marco.
I don,t know why Simon used such derogatory terms, maybe he can reply to this thread and explain?
Wakefield Turntables
23-06-2014, 20:49
Well, I've never heard of it. It might be a "huge subject" for those into that kind of thing, but for everyone else....
So, educate me, what has printing got to do with tonearms? I don't understand the connection. I've heard of printing t-shirts and newspapers, that's about it!! Oh, and why is '3D printing' considered as 'inferior'? 'Inferior' to what else exactly?? :scratch:
Marco.
Fair point if you've never heard about it. You can now "print" any 3D object, say like a knee hip replacement, a new part for your car, so using the technology you can print a tonearm. I would imagine Simon thinks 3D technology is inferior to good old egineering??? He'll probably get his point across i should imagine.
WOStantonCS100
23-06-2014, 22:36
Wow.... So VPI have made a D/D turntable now? That'll be bloody awesome!!! How much is it? Oh, and I wonder which motor unit it uses (Technics?) or have VPI designed their own from scratch?
In terms of the OP, "best" is only ever that which is considered as such by an individual user, in terms of what provides him or her with the most musical enjoyment. Simples...
However, "best", in terms of that which is ultimately most accurate, is another thing entirely! ;)
Marco.
Marco,
You really should read this for yourself, if you haven't already. Among others, apparently, Harry is a fan of the L-07D. (Hope it's okay to post this.)
http://www.tonepublications.com/analogaholic/turntables/
Thanks for posting that review Biff. The VPI DD would definitely be the turntable I would buy if I had the cash! :)
Cheers for the link, Biff. I'll have a good read of that :)
For me, 'printed 3D arm' or not, I'd bet any money on the VPI sounding fantastic. I also like how it looks, and the plinth is something I'd love to house my own T/T inside.
Is it worth £30k, though? Well....... I guess I'd need to listen to it first and compare it with my modded SL-1210, just to see how the land lies, as it were!
Marco.
I think the VPI Direct drive is $30,000 with 3D arm but it does come with a different, cheaper arm as well so converted into English Dosh that may well be nearer £20,000.
Speak to Steve (Sonority) if you want a price and a listen as he is a VPI dealer.
A veritable bargain then, Jim! :eyebrows:
I've always liked VPI belt-drive T/Ts, so it would be very interesting to hear their D/D one. Does Steve post here and/or does he have a website?
Marco.
A veritable bargain then, Jim! :eyebrows:
I've always liked VPI belt-drive T/Ts, so it would be very interesting to hear their D/D one. Does Steve post here and/or does he have a website?
Marco.
He is an AOS member and does post here. I think he is updating his website at the moment.
http://www.sonoritydesign.co.uk
Thanks, Jim. I see that he's based in the West Midlands, so not to far away from me..... :)
Marco.
pure sound
24-06-2014, 08:08
Here's a 3 part film showing a visit made by Michael Fremer to VPI's factory. The DD design gets discussed at one point.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hamlDD15Yzk
Part 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UMEvwmvVLc
Part 3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ6WIiNU00w
Besides feeling a little like an episode of the Soprano's, while interesting, I don't think this kind of coverage does them any favours. There is always the impression for me that they are opportunists switching their design ethos to whatever is trendy or should sell rather than what they actually believe in. Despite this, over the years they have made some nice products and have often delivered very good value so there have been high points.
There are a few pricy DD options now with VPI being joined by the Kodo Beat & the Grand Prix Monaco. Of those 3 I'd say the Kodo is the most intriguing. I've heard it a few times now & it seems impressive. My favourite is the Rockport Sirius III but they are unobtainium now & given the engineering involved, unlikely to be bettered.
Lower down in price there are models from Brinkmann, Inspire, the STST I sell, another German design called Langer (motor unit & psu available separately for DIY implementation) and possibly others I've forgotten. I have to visit someone using the VPI soon so I'll be interested to hear what it can do.
http://www.langer-audio.de/Page15.html
I would echo Guy's sentiments regarding VPI - they are always chopping and changing as fashion, or the whims of the market, fluctuate.
The Langer is 3K as a DIY option (plus shipping) - there are very few details as to how precisely it operates (other than the blanket info that it is a DD).
I would echo Guy's sentiments regarding VPI - they are always chopping and changing as fashion, or the whims of the market, fluctuate.
The Langer is 3K as a DIY option (plus shipping) - there are very few details as to how precisely it operates (other than the blanket info that it is a DD).
I would say every company in the Hifi business do this. Do you think SME has stayed with its original tonearms and turntables from the year dot? No they have moved on as technology and materials have become available as have all hifi manufacturers.
VPI do not just chop and change because of fashion, they introduce products which have integrity and a sound engineering background to them. Yes they use modern materials and technology but only to advance the quality of their products, ultimately to sound better!
We will have to agree to disagree then (I see you own a VPI deck and arm). SME aren't a good example IMO of as their designs have changed very little - they certainly haven't changed from belt drive (one motor then two motors when the fashion for multiple motors came in), to idler drive, to direct drive in the way that VPI have.
We will have to agree to disagree then (I see you own a VPI deck and arm). SME aren't a good example IMO of as their designs have changed very little - they certainly haven't changed from belt drive (one motor then two motors when the fashion for multiple motors came in), to idler drive, to direct drive in the way that VPI have.
VPI haven't thrown out their belt driven TT, just simply added a new option.
The Barbarian
24-06-2014, 10:02
Ok Jimbo
:rolleyes:
pure sound
24-06-2014, 10:14
What about external flywheels, rim drive and acrylic platters? Have they abandoned those yet?
chris@panteg
24-06-2014, 10:33
VPI haven't thrown out their belt driven TT, just simply added a new option.
VPI have added quite a lot of different options over the years though ? And in all sorts of directions that's the point !
SME have changed very little in all honesty , refined and improved yes .
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