Ortofon Cadenza Bronze. How good is it?

[Floyddroid]

Anyone using one of these? If so, how good is it?:)

[Clive197]

Hi Steve

I've used the Cadenza Bronze in my OL Silver3A for nearly a year now. Previously it was mounted in a Linn Ittok LVIII having replaced a well loved Kontrapunct B.

I love the warmth of the Bronze and IMHO it sounds nicer than the Black which is slightly brighter. Detail, smoothness and dynamics is what you would expect from a very high quality MC. It is a keeper and I can't see me replacing the cartridge until it or I depart this Earth, which ever comes first.

Clive

[talisman2]

thought you were trying to keep away from high/medium end stuff ? get yourself a Ortofon MC15 Super II !!!

[hifi_dave]

Fast. clean, neutral, involving. The Cadenza range are excellent cartridges.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Once you've had black you can't go back! :eek:

[RobbieGong]

Once you've had black you can't go back! :eek:

Yep !! :D I'd expect the Black to be awesome due to it's Shibata (and if it's sibling the mm 2M Black is anything to go by.....) :)

[Floyddroid]

Yes the wife told me that.

Once you've had black you can't go back! :eek:

[talisman2]

got an Ortofon VMS20E you can have for £300 (te-he)

[Clive197]

The Bronze and the Black are both awesome cartridges but with slightly different sonic signatures. The Bronze has a warmer sound than the Black which is slightly more analytical. One mans meat is another's poison.

I auditioned both before making my decision as being in the trade at the time, price was not an issue.

Clive

[Clive197]

got an Ortofon VMS20E you can have for £300 (te-he)

Not really comparable as the VMS20E was a Moving Magnet and the Cadenza range are high end Moving Coil.

:doh:

Clive

[Tarzan]

The Bronze and the Black are both awesome cartridges but with slightly different sonic signatures. The Bronze has a warmer sound than the Black which is slightly more analytical. One mans meat is another's poison.

I auditioned both before making my decision as being in the trade at the time, price was not an issue.

Clive


Clive, may we enquire as to where you auditioned these cartridges.:)

[oceanobsession]

I bought one after waiting months for a lyra delos, very like an spu, I would say that the spu is a little bit more creamy , but don't track as good but
sounds a bit more natural, nice cartridge with meat on the bones and a nice smooth top end, which isn't over hyped, phil.

[Clive197]

Clive, may we enquire as to where you auditioned these cartridges.:)

Hi Andy, I was loaned them by Henley Designs, the UK distributers. It's not what you know but who.

A good dealer should be able to get you a loaner but I doubt that you will get them both at the same time and there is usually a wait for a few weeks. You never know until you ask.

Clive

[paskinn]

It's not a popular view, but I think Ortofon mms are better than their mcs.....which, like nearly all modern moving coils are rather unnatural sounding.
Some of you might be surprised at how many very experienced audio guys think the same (including dealers who sell a lot of very expensive MCs.) I've had lots (lots) of pricey moving coils, including Koetsu, Vdh, lyra (ugh!) and, indeed, Ortofon. It's an 'Emperors new clothes' scenario. Plenty of people are aware the moving coils sound exaggerated and etched, but they tell themselves that everyone says they are great...so they must be.
As I said, a very unfashionable view, but it's gaining ground...why spend huge amounts to get an etched, over-detailed and basically unmusical sound?
BTW: I've visited two guys with very exotic systems this month, both refuse to use any moving coils...which made me realise I'm not alone in this. Spend your hard earned cash on better decks and arms...that's where most of the problems are.

[Clive197]

Your absolutely right........not a popular view.:lol:

[paskinn]

And that would make it wrong would it? I lived through the whole ''Linn/Naim'' propaganda wars, where the majority of opinions were so relentless pro these brands that other fine manufacturers couldn't get a hearing.That is now seen as an embarrassing period, where too many audio people just clung to the same old cult.
Audio is a narrow little world, full of guys repeating the same weary 'truths'.

It's usually wrong. Simple example..this forum loves certain stuff, such as the Technics turntable. But is it really a good deck..or simply a cheapish, good value, one that people over-praise? A well-made unit which has been elevated above it's true performance position? And would this forum be open enough to look honestly at the issues? or are forums there mainly to allow people to praise their own gear?
I suspect we all know the answer. The best systems I hear are usually full of stuff relentless out of 'fashion'.
Of course, I could just be going deaf........

[Floyddroid]

Bloody hell. I only wanted to know if the Cadenza Bronze was a decent cartridge. Interesting though.;)

[Tarzan]

It's not a popular view, but I think Ortofon mms are better than their mcs.....which, like nearly all modern moving coils are rather unnatural sounding.
Some of you might be surprised at how many very experienced audio guys think the same (including dealers who sell a lot of very expensive MCs.) I've had lots (lots) of pricey moving coils, including Koetsu, Vdh, lyra (ugh!) and, indeed, Ortofon. It's an 'Emperors new clothes' scenario. Plenty of people are aware the moving coils sound exaggerated and etched, but they tell themselves that everyone says they are great...so they must be.
As I said, a very unfashionable view, but it's gaining ground...why spend huge amounts to get an etched, over-detailed and basically unmusical sound?
BTW: I've visited two guys with very exotic systems this month, both refuse to use any moving coils...which made me realise I'm not alone in this. Spend your hard earned cash on better decks and arms...that's where most of the problems are.


l think l may be coming round to this School of thought also, however MCs do have some unique traits.

[Floyddroid]

DING DING......seconds out!!!!
And that would make it wrong would it? I lived through the whole ''Linn/Naim'' propaganda wars, where the majority of opinions were so relentless pro these brands that other fine manufacturers couldn't get a hearing.That is now seen as an embarrassing period, where too many audio people just clung to the same old cult.
Audio is a narrow little world, full of guys repeating the same weary 'truths'.

It's usually wrong. Simple example..this forum loves certain stuff, such as the Technics turntable. But is it really a good deck..or simply a cheapish, good value, one that people over-praise? A well-made unit which has been elevated above it's true performance position? And would this forum be open enough to look honestly at the issues? or are forums there mainly to allow people to praise their own gear?
I suspect we all know the answer. The best systems I hear are usually full of stuff relentless out of 'fashion'.
Of course, I could just be going deaf........

[Tarzan]

Hi Andy, I was loaned them by Henley Designs, the UK distributers. It's not what you know but who.

A good dealer should be able to get you a loaner but I doubt that you will get them both at the same time and there is usually a wait for a few weeks. You never know until you ask.

Clive



Ok thanks Clive.:)

[lewis]

It's not a popular view, but I think Ortofon mms are better than their mcs.....which, like nearly all modern moving coils are rather unnatural sounding.
Some of you might be surprised at how many very experienced audio guys think the same (including dealers who sell a lot of very expensive MCs.) I've had lots (lots) of pricey moving coils, including Koetsu, Vdh, lyra (ugh!) and, indeed, Ortofon. It's an 'Emperors new clothes' scenario. Plenty of people are aware the moving coils sound exaggerated and etched, but they tell themselves that everyone says they are great...so they must be.
As I said, a very unfashionable view, but it's gaining ground...why spend huge amounts to get an etched, over-detailed and basically unmusical sound?
BTW: I've visited two guys with very exotic systems this month, both refuse to use any moving coils...which made me realise I'm not alone in this. Spend your hard earned cash on better decks and arms...that's where most of the problems are.

Interesting! I have heard a Cadenza bronze in Lee Henley's system - and it sounded excellent to my ears.

Can you say which mm carts you are talking about?

Thanks,

Andrew.

[Clive197]

And that would make it wrong would it?

No that would not make your opinion wrong, mearly as you stated, not a popular view.

In my own experience having used both MM and MC extensively over the last 40+ years, I prefer the smoothness of an MC.

Clive

[Elephantears]

It's not a popular view, but I think Ortofon mms are better than their mcs.....which, like nearly all modern moving coils are rather unnatural sounding.
Some of you might be surprised at how many very experienced audio guys think the same (including dealers who sell a lot of very expensive MCs.) I've had lots (lots) of pricey moving coils, including Koetsu, Vdh, lyra (ugh!) and, indeed, Ortofon. It's an 'Emperors new clothes' scenario. Plenty of people are aware the moving coils sound exaggerated and etched, but they tell themselves that everyone says they are great...so they must be.
As I said, a very unfashionable view, but it's gaining ground...why spend huge amounts to get an etched, over-detailed and basically unmusical sound?
BTW: I've visited two guys with very exotic systems this month, both refuse to use any moving coils...which made me realise I'm not alone in this. Spend your hard earned cash on better decks and arms...that's where most of the problems are.

Peter, I was starting to feel this way recently, and my Grado wood bodied leanings were in some ways a symptom of this. However after trying a SUT into a couple of valve MM stages I've changed my mind. Have you tried any of your MC carts into a SUT into your Croft RIAA RS? I would be very interested to know how that compares to the same carts into the Vida, and I wonder if it might restore some of the naturalism you find in MMs.

[PaulStewart]

Peter, I was starting to feel this way recently, and my Grado wood bodied leanings were in some ways a symptom of this. However after trying a SUT into a couple of valve MM stages I've changed my mind. Have you tried any of your MC carts into a SUT into your Croft RIAA RS? I would be very interested to know how that compares to the same carts into the Vida, and I wonder if it might restore some of the naturalism you find in MMs.

I love the wood bodied Grados almost as much as my wood bodied Koetsus, I also like the Yamamoto Sound Craft wooden MCs. I generally find wood bodied cartridges do it for me in terms of naturalness and detail. I used to like the Ortofon MC10 and MC20s back in the day, but for me the wood body rules

[Elephantears]

I love the wood bodied Grados almost as much as my wood bodied Koetsus, I also like the Yamamoto Sound Craft wooden MCs. I generally find wood bodied cartridges do it for me in terms of naturalness and detail. I used to like the Ortofon MC10 and MC20s back in the day, but for me the wood body rules

Interesting. I know someone else with this preference for wood bodied carts and he also loved the Miyajima Waza.

[Clive197]

Interesting. I know someone else with this preference for wood bodied carts and he also loved the Miyajima Waza.

Please excuse my ignorance, but what's a Miyajima Waza? Sounds like something you eat.:scratch:

[DSJR]

So much male jewellery in domestic audio and thankfully, we're often too poor in the UK to indulge the rip-off, sorry exalted, manufacturers out there in foo-land ;)


There are great examples of high output fixed coil pickups as well as low output MC's. I always found the Shure V15VMR very accurate indeed, but the sound thus reproduced could be small-scale in comparison with more 'dramatic' MC types. My Decca Microscanner in the old NAS Mentor was incredibly truthful to the master copies I once had and I love it to bits, but the things are unreliable and won't take rough handling sadly.

Ortofon have decades of experience in cartridge design and VERY good accountants methinks too :rolleyes: The diamonds they fit are usually well faceted and polished and MC tracking is more than adequate I think, if not as good as their fixed coil models. One thing with all Ortofons I've used, the better diamond profiles in the OM 30 and 40, 500/VM (530, 540) and now the 2M series Bronze and Black, do offer great benefits over the base models, which can sound a bit 'HiFi' rather than 'musical' in comparison.

[Elephantears]

Please excuse my ignorance, but what's a Miyajima Waza? Sounds like something you eat.:scratch:

http://www.miyajima-lab.com/e-stereo.html

[Clive197]

Thank you, clearly it's not something you eat. Now may I ask how much? (I know, if you have to ask the price, you can't afford it). I most probably can't.

Clive

[Barry]

It's not a popular view, but I think Ortofon mms are better than their mcs.....which, like nearly all modern moving coils are rather unnatural sounding.
Some of you might be surprised at how many very experienced audio guys think the same (including dealers who sell a lot of very expensive MCs.) I've had lots (lots) of pricey moving coils, including Koetsu, Vdh, lyra (ugh!) and, indeed, Ortofon. It's an 'Emperors new clothes' scenario. Plenty of people are aware the moving coils sound exaggerated and etched, but they tell themselves that everyone says they are great...so they must be.
As I said, a very unfashionable view, but it's gaining ground...why spend huge amounts to get an etched, over-detailed and basically unmusical sound?
BTW: I've visited two guys with very exotic systems this month, both refuse to use any moving coils...which made me realise I'm not alone in this. Spend your hard earned cash on better decks and arms...that's where most of the problems are.

Certainly an alternative view.

On the face of it, with any electrodynamic cartridge, it ought not to matter whether you vary the magnetic flux through a fixed set of coils (conveniently refered to as MM cartridges), or you move the coils about a fixed magnetic flux (that is MC cartridges). The difference is of course, MM cartridges have their coils wound with many turns of wire, so produce a high voltage output, have a high inductance and a high source impedance. MC cartridges on the other hand, need to have a moving coil with low mass, so these coils have far fewer turns and produce a lower output. They also have a much lower inductance and source impedance. MC cartridges generally have a lower compliance and need to track at a higher tracking force. Electrically and mechanically the two are different.

Which is better? Well there are good examples of both. The Decca designs are certainly unique amongst "MM" designs and have a wide following. So too vintage ADCs, AKG, and B&O cartridges; all "MM". Modern designs such as Nagaoka are well regarded. In the MC camp we have the Sugano made Koetsus (especially the Rosewood bodied cartridges), as well as the Ortofon SPU and early SL15E designs, also the broadcast designs such as EMT and Denon. For both types care has to made regarding the electrical loading.

I wouldn't like to choose between the two types: they all sound different and NONE are completely accurate. To paraphrase someone who posted here: "the sound they produce is a lie, but it's a beautiful lie". I use both types.

[magoo]

Having recently got a Croft Micro pre, I also wanted a mm cartridge to get a sense of what the Micro phono stage is like without the added influence of a SUT. I settled on a Clearaudio Performer,mm, wood bodied & £250. My mc carts are a Denon 103R & a Cadenza Bronze, and initial impressions are very positive, the mm + Croft is sounding excellent. Until I get a SUT I can't say how good the Bronze will sound via the Croft, but it's going to have it's work cut out to justify the price differential!

I have a feeling if I were starting from scratch I'd spend the cash upgrading the Croft to R spec instead. When the people say there's magic in the Croft....count me a believer :) And I haven't rolled any valves yet (although I do have my eye on some GE 5751's to knock down the gain a shade).

[Tarzan]

Having recently got a Croft Micro pre, I also wanted a mm cartridge to get a sense of what the Micro phono stage is like without the added influence of a SUT. I settled on a Clearaudio Performer,mm, wood bodied & £250. My mc carts are a Denon 103R & a Cadenza Bronze, and initial impressions are very positive, the mm + Croft is sounding excellent. Until I get a SUT I can't say how good the Bronze will sound via the Croft, but it's going to have it's work cut out to justify the price differential!

I have a feeling if I were starting from scratch I'd spend the cash upgrading the Croft to R spec instead. When the people say there's magic in the Croft....count me a believer :) And I haven't rolled any valves yet (although I do have my eye on some GE 5751's to knock down the gain a shade).

:popcorn:

[magoo]

:popcorn:

Make yourself comfortable, I'm skint for a bit :)

[paskinn]

Might I suggest that if you love your basic Croft phonostage, you hold-off upgrading to the 'R' version until you have heard it, and are sure you prefer it. I've owned both, and think I probably prefer the cheaper one....technically inferior no doubt, but, to my ears, quite magical. The R goes a bit towards the 'hi fi' route for my tastes....although obviously Glenn Croft must prefer it! As do quite a few other people. Worth a listen.

[magoo]

Might I suggest that if you love your basic Croft phonostage, you hold-off upgrading to the 'R' version until you have heard it, and are sure you prefer it. I've owned both, and think I probably prefer the cheaper one....technically inferior no doubt, but, to my ears, quite magical. The R goes a bit towards the 'hi fi' route for my tastes....although obviously Glenn Croft must prefer it! As do quite a few other people. Worth a listen.

You're not the first person I've read say that, and after a few more nights listening to the 25 I'm already asking myself the "If it ain't broke...." question! You know things are good when you repeatedly put on one track to see how it sounds and find you've actually forgotten that and listened to the whole LP :) Now to get up to speed on Step ups / head amps!

[Elephantears]

Might I suggest that if you love your basic Croft phonostage, you hold-off upgrading to the 'R' version until you have heard it, and are sure you prefer it. I've owned both, and think I probably prefer the cheaper one....technically inferior no doubt, but, to my ears, quite magical. The R goes a bit towards the 'hi fi' route for my tastes....although obviously Glenn Croft must prefer it! As do quite a few other people. Worth a listen.

Really? I think the R version is superb. The only drawback is that it makes me wonder about the RS. It opens a window that I can imagine being opened a bit further, knowing what the RS line stage can do. The unregulated version does have a kind of completeness about it, like innocence before the path of knowledge. Always a tempting garden to return to for those who have eaten the bitter fruit of consciousness.

[hifi_dave]

I've never had a customer with money in their pockets prefer a standard pre or power over the 'R' versions.

[Floyddroid]

So, the Ortofon Cadenza bronze is ok then? :offtopic: