View Full Version : The ABR: Whatever Happened To It?
Mr Kipling
14-06-2014, 22:13
It's a question i ask myself now and again. What became of that bastion of '70s speaker design? You never seem to see it now in modern designs. I was reminded of it again reading about B & W's DM7s in the latest Hi-Fi World. I seem to remember one design using most of the area of the back panel as an ABR, but i can't remember what it was.
walpurgis
14-06-2014, 22:27
I believe ABRs are still used by some manufacturers, can't think of one offhand, but seem to recall seeing models that have them not long ago. But they are scarce, that's for sure. I never liked the KEF implementations, they had a somewhat 'rubbery' bass character. The Celestions seemed a bit better to me. Goodmans used one in the Dimension 8 that worked well.
Mr Kipling
14-06-2014, 22:42
Oh. Thought they had died out totally, Geoff.
mr sneff
15-06-2014, 05:11
Audience loudspeakers (http://www.audience-av.com/loudspeakers/), such as The One use a rear facing (or side facing in the case of 1+1) passive radiator
http://www.stereophile.com/images/styles/600_wide/public/913aud.promo_.jpg?itok=s-8i_psP
Gordon Steadman
15-06-2014, 06:36
its alive and well and living in my workshop!!
Tomorrow or the day after will see if they still work. My Teufel kit speakers have FOUR passive drivers in each cabinet. However, unlike most ABRs they have big magnets and their flexibility is controlled by variable resistance.
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?32421-One-of-those-teaser-threads
jandl100
15-06-2014, 06:37
Thiel still use them.
My old hi-tech Thiel CS2.3 - the lower driver is an ABR.
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/YamThiel_zpsa91aa612.jpg
The Thiel is on the right. ;)
337alant
15-06-2014, 08:13
I just bought a pair of new Tannoy precision 6.4 and they have 2 x 6" ABRs in them
I did own a pair of Celestion Ditton 25 years ago that had ABRs
Alan
The Black Adder
15-06-2014, 08:55
Wilson Benesch still use the technology in their Square range. As seen here here.
http://www.audiofil.pl/files/(iV2aoePOrKSt4aFfYEfOlkpez6GZoNuupqeilmBXmZNiU6HQo pit56yfmmdIW5BgXFmemJ2VoN7i1Yloow)/pl/defaultgalerie/49/18/1/626468150.jpg
I think ABR's were originally used in speakers like the Ditton 15 as a means of getting a fuller tone from a smaller box (this was in the days of the huge box beefy balance speaker). The KEF Cadenza/104/104ab also did this at a higher price point, but the wobbly fruitbox with its cheaper relatives all but killed off interest in the UK as the uncontrolled cone wobble caused many record warp problems at the time could cause damage to the main drivers bottoming out.
Those days are gone now and I remember how much better the 104ab sounded with digital and better analogue sources too. No doubt this is why the trend has blossomed again with some speakers - and Wilson Benesch need(ed) all the help they could get with getting meaningful bass out of their brightly toned boxes I remember!
The Black Adder
15-06-2014, 11:27
- and Wilson Benesch need(ed) all the help they could get with getting meaningful bass out of their brightly toned boxes I remember!
Indeed they did. The Squares for instance do need to be placed near a wall to get the sound to gel too as far as I remember them telling me once. That was quite a while ago though so they might have changed the design since. I think the look on my face said it all the the nice gent at Moorgate told me that at first, even he cringed a little at that manufacturers tip. Nice enough speakers though. Saying that, the arcs are much nicer.
I suppose that computers might have reduced the popularity of the ABR since it is much cheaper and simpler to re-inforce the bass using a port and the optimum size and length of the port can be calculated quickly and exactly nowadays. An ABR could still be viewed as a more elegant and effective way of doing it though.
The Barbarian
15-06-2014, 11:49
ABR's rock.. I'm a right ABR Fanboy.. If i can remember the only Model that Castle Acoustics Ltd made with ABR was the 'Dover' great speakers but quite rare now, my fav ABR design
I liked the Tannoy 'T185: Dorset' & 'T225: Mayfair' models
Without stating all the obvious loudspeaker models i think you would be suprised how many designs their were with Bass Radiators..
awkwardbydesign
15-06-2014, 13:57
http://www.sonusfaber.com/en-us/products/extrema
The Black Adder
15-06-2014, 14:14
ABR's rock.. I'm a right ABR Fanboy.. If i can remember the only Model that Castle Acoustics Ltd made with ABR was the 'Dover' great speakers but quite rare now, my fav ABR design
WS84AInmhUM
I liked the Tannoy 'T185: Dorset' & 'T225: Mayfair' models
Without stating all the obvious loudspeaker models i think you would be suprised how many designs their were with Bass Radiators..
Nice! :)
Wakefield Turntables
15-06-2014, 17:01
The celestion 15's, 15xr's and 66's used ABR, not sure about other models. I loved my 15's when I had them, fantastic speakers.
Wilson Benesch make a speaker where the whole of the back panel is an ABR.
Personally, I've yet to hear an ABR equipped speaker that I liked.
walpurgis
15-06-2014, 18:43
The celestion 15's, 15xr's and 66's used ABR, not sure about other models. I loved my 15's when I had them, fantastic speakers.
Ditton 120, UL6, UL8 and 662 spring to mind. There may have been others.
The Black Adder
15-06-2014, 19:26
Wilson Benesch make a speaker where the whole of the back panel is an ABR.
Personally, I've yet to hear an ABR equipped speaker that I liked.
As in post #8 ;)
They are good but the arcs have a much nicer and natural sound. Saying that, the arcs are more expensive.
Beobloke
16-06-2014, 09:24
I must admit I'm not exactly sad to see the waning in popularity of ABRs either. Whislt more than a few are certainly pleasant enough, in my experience the extension they offer generally comes at the expense of detail, speed and control.
As in post #8 ;)
They are good but the arcs have a much nicer and natural sound. Saying that, the arcs are more expensive.
Yeah, sorry, hadn't read post #8.
I wasn't impressed with the ABR equipped WB's.
in my experience the extension they offer generally comes at the expense of detail, speed and control.
Yep - that sumarises my feelings too.
Whislt more than a few are certainly pleasant enough, in my experience the extension they offer generally comes at the expense of detail, speed and control.
I've not had much proper experience of using speakers that feature the use of ABRs, but those I have used extensively (Celestion 15XRs and Celestion 66s), certainly in my system, don't lack detail, speed and control - in fact, quite the opposite is true! :)
Perhaps one of the reasons for that is due to having paid serious attention to *all* aspects of system set-up (particuarly in terms of the use of appropriate supports/stands and optimisation of mains powering), and not just on the boxes upstream feeding them the signal? ;)
Marco.
I dunno, the bass of the 66's at Scalford didn't wow me I'm afraid.
Beobloke
16-06-2014, 11:59
Perhaps one of the reasons for that is due to having paid serious attention to *all* aspects of system set-up (particuarly in terms of the use of appropriate supports/stands and optimisation of mains powering), and not just on the boxes upstream feeding them the signal? ;)
Marco.
WHAT? Are you somehow suggesting that my evaluation method of 'plonk one speaker on a wobbly wall shelf, the other in the corner on the floor and connect them up with bellwire' is incorrect?
How very dare you....
;)
I dunno, the bass of the 66's at Scalford didn't wow me I'm afraid.
Hotel rooms/possible sub-optimal seating position. Need I say more? Cranage Hall, yesterday, was the first hotel hi-fi show I've been to in years where the systems demonstrated suffered from little or no 'room boom'. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said for the rooms at Scalford.
I can assure you that there are no such bass issues, as you've described (even though the vast majority of people attending the demo at Scalford thought that the 66s sounded fantastic), when listening to them here at home - and the same applies with the 15XRs :)
Marco.
WHAT? Are you somehow suggesting that my evaluation method of 'plonk one speaker on a wobbly wall shelf, the other in the corner on the floor and connect them up with bellwire' is incorrect?
How very dare you....
;)
Lol... :eyebrows:
That policy/state of affairs (prevalent amongst users in the days when said speakers were made) is most likely primarily responsible for why some people think vintage hi-fi is crap! [Including, as a result, their jaundiced memories now of how 'bad' it sounded 'back in the day'] ;)
...when the reality is that if you take the best examples of vintage hi-fi, and optimise them within a modern context, the results can be sublime!! One pertinent example of that fact is Mark's Yammies (and there are many others)....
Marco.
Hotel rooms/possible sub-optimal seating position. Need I say more? Cranage Hall, yesterday, was the first hotel hi-fi show I've been to in years where the systems demonstrated suffered from little or no 'room boom'. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said for the rooms at Scalford.
I can assure you that there are no such bass issues, as you've described (even though the vast majority of people attending the demo at Scalford thought that the 66s sounded fantastic), when listening to them here at home - and the same applies with the 15XRs :)
Marco.
Yes, as you say, hotel rooms are far from optimal; it wasn't room boom that bothered me though - I just didn't think the bass had much form or texture.
When you write about the "majority of people attending" you make it sounds like hundreds ;), I know some people commented that they thought the bass was 'awesome' - but I'm used to reading enthusiastic statements I disagree with :). To be honest, I think some people just see a big speaker with lots of woofer and conclude 'great bass'!
...I just didn't think the bass had much form or texture.
...and of course the hotel room acoustics, and how the speakers interacted with that, won't have influenced the above one iota ;)
One thing I can guarantee is that the 66s sound WAY better in my lounge than they did at Scalford.
When you write about the "majority of people attending" you make it sounds like hundreds...
When you include the comments of both paying attendees on the day (many of whom were not members of forums), as well as other exhibitors - and our room was full with around 30 people at most times throughout the day - it wouldn't have been far off a hundred or so.
Of those who visited our room, I can think of about 20 comments I received, praising the quality of the sound, some of which came from fellow exhibitors in nearby rooms, who in some cases were spending more time in our room than in their own! :eyebrows:
Like I said before, daftee, you should try exhibiting yourself one year, and see how you get on demonstrating your system!
Marco.
The Barbarian
16-06-2014, 18:17
im gradually learning not to mention my preferences on audio forums. apart from infuriating me i find it counter productive.
im gradually learning not to mention my preferences on audio forums. apart from infuriating me i find it counter productive.
But that is what (subjective) audio fora are all about!
The Barbarian
16-06-2014, 18:21
Even when people ALWAYS compare old equipment to present equipment? Gets my flaming goat.
Like I said before, you should try exhibiting yourself one year, and see how you get on demonstrating your system!
Marco.
I appreciate the difficulties and have been involved with Scalford demos (a number of times). To be honest Marco, it makes no odds to me if ten thousand told you they sounded wonderful - but I'm very glad to hear they perform significantly better in your living room. Never say never, but at present I think it highly unlikely that I will be attending Scalford as anything more than a visitor - presumably I'm still entitled to pass comment?
Mr Kipling
16-06-2014, 21:08
...you should try exhibiting yourself one year,
Marco.
Isn't there some law against that? Doesn't he have a wife and family to think of?
If manufacturers used proper sized bass drivers there would be no need for an ABR. Or a port. ;)
Rush2112
16-06-2014, 21:54
Sonus Faber Electa Amator 2 of course has a 35Hz passive radiator located on the rear face of this book shelf speaker allowing it to deliver a sound much larger than it's diminutive size would suggest.
walpurgis
16-06-2014, 22:25
If manufacturers used proper sized bass drivers there would be no need for an ABR. Or a port. ;)
Depends what size cabinet you're using.
Depends what size cabinet you're using.
Well one big enough to fit a 12 or ideally a 15, obviously. I've always liked the idea of using cupboards or adjacent rooms as baffles. If I bought the house next door I could do that :)
Mr Kipling
16-06-2014, 23:12
15" drivers? This is what you want man.
12686
One of these either side of the fireplace - and you'll be laughing. I doubt the Mrs would though.
walpurgis
16-06-2014, 23:12
Well one big enough to fit a 12 or ideally a 15, obviously. I've always liked the idea of using cupboards or adjacent rooms as baffles. If I bought the house next door I could do that :)
What about venting your bass drivers into the great outdoors? That's a true 'infinite baffle'. Obviously you'd need to be a bit away from neighbours. It has been done.
walpurgis
16-06-2014, 23:15
15" drivers? This is what you want man.
Yes, well....
That piccie is definitely a fake. Quite like it though. :)
Mr Kipling
16-06-2014, 23:38
I thought it was genuine.
Years ago in Hi-Fi Answers someone wrote in wanting help with their system. The speakers he had were a bit different being a pair of large full-range drivers which he had atteched to the wall that separated his living and dining rooms.
walpurgis
16-06-2014, 23:49
I thought it was genuine.
Well, look at the giant terminals, even if the speaker was real, they'd be smaller and that looks like a ceramic magnet. The original photo itself looks like a fifties or sixties item and ceramic magnets did not really come into common use until the early mid seventies and for a driver that big the magnet would likely be a lot smaller. Very big speakers tend to have magnets that look comparatively small. The back of the magnet looks to have a vent, again, not common (or even unheard of?) back then. And the picture itself looks to have been tinkered with.
Personally, I’ve always wondered exactly how the ‘active acoustic coupler’ in my Vandersteen 3A Sigs works but in doing some reading prompted by this thread, it seems in my non-expert opinion to act as both an ABR and a driver depending on frequency. In the Vandersteen literature it’s described as a ‘novel Electro-Mechanically Optimized Woofer System’ that I suspect is saying rather the same thing.
As I understand it, the rear firing 10" coupler is in a common enclosure with the front firing 8" woofer and so is driven by the back-energy from the 8" woofer rather like a passive radiator perhaps below 60 Hz or so. Below 35 Hz where the acoustic energy provided from the 8" woofer fades away, the active voice coil takes over down to 26 Hz and to whatever degree, lower.
If the above is correct, then it appears the coupler acts as a passive radiator down to 35Hz and then performs as an active driven sub woofer below that. I suspect this provides bass extension beyond that of a similar-size ported box, but with the phase/time coherence of a sealed box. A small cost may be efficiency, as the coupler has to be driven by the power amp. In the more expensive Vandersteen models, the use of active sub gets around this.
Anyone know if I’m on the right track here?:scratch:
Never say never, but at present I think it highly unlikely that I will be attending Scalford as anything more than a visitor - presumably I'm still entitled to pass comment?
Of course! However, I'm sure you realise that, despite what one hears, good or bad, shows are never places to form conclusive opinions.
Marco.
If manufacturers used proper sized bass drivers there would be no need for an ABR.
Depends what you mean by "proper sized drivers". 66s have 12" bass drivers, yet still use ABRs! ;)
However, yes, "proper sized" is a 15-incher....
Marco.
BTH K10A
17-06-2014, 22:11
I once went to see some JBL Sovereigns that were for sale. I had always wanted a pair of them or the similar Olympus.
They were a real disapointment, the bass lacked the clarity and timing of the C50SM S8's I had that usedthe same drivers but without the passive 15". Needless to say I passed on them but the addition of a passive drive albeit in a larger cabinet was certainly not an improvement, which is probaly why they never used them in the Pro products.
BTH K10A
17-06-2014, 22:22
15" drivers? This is what you want man.
12686
One of these either side of the fireplace - and you'll be laughing. I doubt the Mrs would though.
Better still, how about a real one
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f120/emttsd15/3sQTsAKh_zps65044ef6.jpg (http://s46.photobucket.com/user/emttsd15/media/3sQTsAKh_zps65044ef6.jpg.html)
For Scale :eek:
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f120/emttsd15/ACSxo0uh_zps5cfc154a.jpg (http://s46.photobucket.com/user/emttsd15/media/ACSxo0uh_zps5cfc154a.jpg.html)
walpurgis
17-06-2014, 22:38
Anyone know if I’m on the right track here?:scratch:
Not a clue. :scratch:
Thanks Geoff, I'll just have to remain clueless then:lol:
jandl100
20-06-2014, 06:24
My afore-mentioned ABRed Thiels certainly had well controlled deep bass - in fact it was too dry for some listeners who wanted a bit more bloom and tonal richness to make them happy.
Yes, they were a bit dry, but all part of the character of the speaker, and they kept me interested for quite a while.
Indeed they did. The [WB] Squares for instance do need to be placed near a wall to get the sound to gel too as far as I remember them telling me once. That was quite a while ago though so they might have changed the design since. I think the look on my face said it all the nice gent at Moorgate told me that at first, even he cringed a little at that manufacturers tip. Nice enough speakers though. Saying that, the arcs are much nicer.
:scratch:
What's wrong with a speaker being designed for near-wall placement? Quite a few speakers do that.
That would be ideal for a lot of folks.
Seems a sensible option to have, to me! :)
I've heard too many systems with speakers close to the walls when they weren't designed for it - Boom Bloat Waffle - oh deary deary me. :doh:
I like near wall loading, but it does have issues. It's inherently rather a coloured solution - or at least it is if you intend to use a low order passive crossover. In addition, I've never heard a boundary reinforced speaker that doesn't flatten and simplify the soundstage.
Gordon Steadman
20-06-2014, 20:57
Better still, how about a real one
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f120/emttsd15/3sQTsAKh_zps65044ef6.jpg (http://s46.photobucket.com/user/emttsd15/media/3sQTsAKh_zps65044ef6.jpg.html)
For Scale :eek:
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f120/emttsd15/ACSxo0uh_zps5cfc154a.jpg (http://s46.photobucket.com/user/emttsd15/media/ACSxo0uh_zps5cfc154a.jpg.html)
In fairness, she is probably quite short:lol:
Gordon Steadman
20-06-2014, 21:02
I am definitely thinking of resurrecting my Ditton 15s in some way. My wife used to have a pair (of Ditton 15s:eyebrows:) and was saying today how much she loved them - I'm quite fond too.......
......anyway, I have the drivers and crossover but the ABRs were scrapped long ago as someone dropped something rather heavy on them during a house move. I do have a couple of KEF B139 ABRs though and I do wonder if they could be made to work. Might be an interesting experiment. Probably best to stick to same cabinet dimensions but it might need to be a bit taller to house the KEFs.
Worth a play anyway.
jandl100
20-06-2014, 21:09
I like near wall loading, but it does have issues. It's inherently rather a coloured solution - or at least it is if you intend to use a low order passive crossover. In addition, I've never heard a boundary reinforced speaker that doesn't flatten and simplify the soundstage.
Yup, that's my main objection to it, too.
I like near wall loading, but it does have issues. It's inherently rather a coloured solution - or at least it is if you intend to use a low order passive crossover. In addition, I've never heard a boundary reinforced speaker that doesn't flatten and simplify the soundstage.
I agree but it is an interesting property of speakers that the simpler, cruder solution often sounds better than the complex, sophisticated alternatives.
I agree but it is an interesting property of speakers that the simpler, cruder solution often sounds better than the complex, sophisticated alternatives.
Yes, I agree; or at least I think it's often easier to get good results from simpler solutions.
I bought a pair of Wharfedale Vardus 400 speakers as they were cheap and I wanted to see if floorstanders were a better option than my bookshelf speakers. Although on Wharfedale's own website they are listed as ported speakers they are in fact infinite baffle with a passive abr and are not ported. They sounded a bit constrained and lacked bass at first but after a few weeks they were sounding fab, really opened up.
At first I thought they sounded a bit bass shy but on further listening it became clear that this was the best bass I'd heard in my room. No mushy sounding thump thump this was what I would call uncoloured bass it's quite strange once you get used to it and afterwards ported speakers sounded very coloured in comparison.
I'm a big fan of infinite baffle speakers in fact the first pair of 'proper speakers' I owned were JPW AP2s driven by a mission cyrus one mk11. I wish they still made them. My brother used snells and audionote speakers which are also infinite baffle designs (although without an ABR) with his Meridian amp at different times which I also loved the sound of.
So now the cheapo Wharfedales are in my main music system and they're keepers. Not bad for £120.00 delivered, lol.
One day If I win the lotto I'll be in for some ANJs. Dream on......
walpurgis
14-10-2014, 19:56
ABR speakers are not infinite baffle designs. The ABRs (and cabinet) act as the resonator instead of a reflex port, so it is still a reflex type in principle.
The Barbarian
14-10-2014, 22:21
Proper ABR designs rock.. Ive been looking for another pair of Castle Acoustics Ltd 'Dover' for a while now..
southall-1998
14-10-2014, 23:20
My belly is an ABR :D
S.
Lol - I thought the ‘ABR' was your (farty) arse! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Rush2112
11-11-2014, 12:02
Have to agree that at first the bass can appear a little lacking against similar ported designs but it is on extended listening often better extended with greater speed and clarity.
walpurgis
11-11-2014, 23:38
Just bought a pair of BD139s for a project. The proposed main drivers are high flux, and self damp well, reducing bass 'overhang' from the ABR, so it may work out OK. We'll see.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2025 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.