View Full Version : Upgrading my amplification
I'm currently running an Arcam Aplha 8R and 8P.
I am thinking of changing this to a pre and power combo in stages.
One thought was to get a pre such as the croft 25, and add a 10P, using the 8P to drive the tweeters, and the 10P for bass duties.
Another thought was go for one (or two Quad 405-2) and use my 8R as a pre for time being. Then there is the option of NVA with a P50 or P90 and a couple of A40 mono blocks and NVA cable.
I will be using the amps to run my Cyrus CLS70 speakers, which may be changed when I finish my bathroom refurbs, and I am trying to do this on a budget.
Has anybody done anything similar, and what route would you recommend?
The amps will be fed by my Slee reflex M, and either the 7SE CD player or the PD-S703.
I have used Croft pre with Quad 405 and Quad 606. These combinations worked well, however in the end I moved onto the Croft 25R and Croft series 7 power as there is a very good synergy with this set up especially with my speakers which are quite sensitive.
I think the Croft pre with 405 would be your best improvement to my mind.
DarrenHW
11-06-2014, 16:04
I think the Croft pre with 405 would be your best improvement to my mind.
Good to know, this is the path I'm on, I have already picked up a 405 and have eventually decided upon a Croft Micro 25. The 405 need to be serviced first and I'll buy the croft as soon as I have the 405's ready to go.
James - did you do swap the OPAMP's in the 405 / if so can you make a recommendation for a Croft?
Well, being a recent convert to the world of NVA, I'd obviously suggest looking there in the future as current models are really very good indeed and nicely made inside and out!
However, for now, a PROPERLY and sensitively refurbed 405-2 will be a good investment and shouldn't lose money. All I suggest is to look on the Quad Revision BlogSpot site for recommendations about reducing the gain as both this and the 303 (and possibly the 306 too?) were optimised around the dated 33 preamp which couldn't deliver much output voltage without clipping - one reason why the 303 and 405 series work so well with passives...
So, this is my suggestion at this time, which may well be modifiable ;)
Flog the godawful and totally outclassed Arcam stuff (I sold 'em new - I know!) and replace with one (or two) 405-2's - MUST be to series 2 spec, the series 1's were horrible, even on Quad speakers and 57's easily reproduce the improvements a series 2 update makes :eek: use something well liked here such as a Tisbury passive for preamp duties for now and sensible low capacitance interconnects that don't cost a fortune (anything like the van Damme, Klotz, SC etc should be fine). As funds permit, add a Croft 25 if you like BUT reduce the gain of the 405's to match it (and all modern 'active' preamps). I think the Croft can happily drive a pair of stereo amps like the 405-2's, but here, a 25 or 25R will be essential as the power supplies are what the R upgrade does I believe (the RS goes much further).
[Edit] - The Quads invert absolute phase and so does the Croft. Don't know if you're sensitive to this but just thought I'd mention it.
Good to know, this is the path I'm on, I have already picked up a 405 and have eventually decided upon a Croft Micro 25. The 405 need to be serviced first and I'll buy the croft as soon as I have the 405's ready to go.
James - did you do swap the OPAMP's in the 405 / if so can you make a recommendation for a Croft?
not sure this is relevant but you can update your 405 here (http://dadaelectronics.eu)... I did it with a 306 and the results where excellent. I wouldn't bother to update any Quad preamp. It is not worth it IMHO. Just use a passive NVA Pxx (with some NVA amps) or a LDR based pre (check a thread going on here (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?32287-LDR3x-V2-Passive-Preamp-Controller-Board-amp-Related-DIY-Components&highlight=light+dependent) and here (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?32677-Are-LDR-pres-the-ultimate-passive&highlight=figlet) amongst others).
not sure this is relevant but you can update your 405 here (http://dadaelectronics.eu)... I did it with a 306 and the results where excellent. I wouldn't bother to update any Quad preamp. It is not worth it IMHO. Just use a passive NVA Pxx (with some NVA amps) or a LDR based pre (check a thread going on here (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?32287-LDR3x-V2-Passive-Preamp-Controller-Board-amp-Related-DIY-Components&highlight=light+dependent) and here (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?32677-Are-LDR-pres-the-ultimate-passive&highlight=figlet) amongst others).
+1
Quad preamps are not the subject here, but I should say that the LATER 44 (grey/chocolate) is very good IMO and benefits from more modern op-amps and other things done to the design. I believe the later 'original' spec 44 was similar as well, although I hate DIN plugs with a passion! The 66 and 77 preamps are delightful in their way too with no updating apart from dry joints in some 66's I've heard about.
The one Quad pre I've never got on with is the 34. The original spec ones were bland as anything. I unkindly refer to the sound as 'limp wristed' and what I mean by that is that any music of a percussive nature (jazz as well as rock/pop) just seemed to me to have the life sucked out of it. Adding a stock 306 compounded this further IMO, although I've heard that a 306 can be well improved in this area with updated supply caps etc. The 34 suffers leaky supply caps too and apparently the Dada updates to op-amps and some other caps does bring about a positive change.
The old 33 preamp is a lovely period piece, but too band-limited and with insufficient gain in standard form to cause any half decent modern preamp any headaches. Mine was dada updated and it did improve things, but the source was 'altered' from input to output too much still. I adore the neat styling though and the net-Audio preamp boards may well be the way to go here :)
Sorry to divert the thread a little, but someone might find the above fairly useful in the future I hope.
The 34 suffers leaky supply caps too and apparently the Dada updates to op-amps and some other caps does bring about a positive.
very true but even after I updated it with the Dada mods, a simple BTE passive pre beat it in my setup
sorry to drift yet again
I think I have finally made a decision.
The 25RS is out of my budget, so I think I am going to go for a 25R line preamp, but I have one question.
Is the 25R worth the additional outlay over the 25? I'll add a series 7 or 7R later when funds allow.
I'm not interested in the phono stage version, as I quite like my Slee Reflex M, and the ability to change the phono stage easily.
I know I said that a Croft was likely to be my way forward, but grow good is an Audionote M2 Line?
There is one that is available 2nd hand.
Well, being a recent convert to the world of NVA, I'd obviously suggest looking there in the future as current models are really very good indeed and nicely made inside and out!
However, for now, a PROPERLY and sensitively refurbed 405-2 will be a good investment and shouldn't lose money. All I suggest is to look on the Quad Revision BlogSpot site for recommendations about reducing the gain as both this and the 303 (and possibly the 306 too?) were optimised around the dated 33 preamp which couldn't deliver much output voltage without clipping - one reason why the 303 and 405 series work so well with passives...
So, this is my suggestion at this time, which may well be modifiable ;)
Flog the godawful and totally outclassed Arcam stuff (I sold 'em new - I know!) and replace with one (or two) 405-2's - MUST be to series 2 spec, the series 1's were horrible, even on Quad speakers and 57's easily reproduce the improvements a series 2 update makes :eek: use something well liked here such as a Tisbury passive for preamp duties for now and sensible low capacitance interconnects that don't cost a fortune (anything like the van Damme, Klotz, SC etc should be fine). As funds permit, add a Croft 25 if you like BUT reduce the gain of the 405's to match it (and all modern 'active' preamps). I think the Croft can happily drive a pair of stereo amps like the 405-2's, but here, a 25 or 25R will be essential as the power supplies are what the R upgrade does I believe (the RS goes much further).
[Edit] - The Quads invert absolute phase and so does the Croft. Don't know if you're sensitive to this but just thought I'd mention it.
Much of the "horrors" of the Quad 405-1 can be ameliorated by replacing the awful LM301 op amp with a TL071 or better. Just remember to fit a couple of de-coupling capacitors on the power supply pins to maintain stability. Replacing the 12V Zeners for 15V is also beneficial.
Apropos the Quad 44 (which is not being discussed, but you brought it up anyway :eyebrows:), the best version is the later, grey only, version having an additional +/-3dB option on the "Tilt" control, an extra level of bass boost, and the removal of the "cancel" LED. This latter feature is the most easily identifiable feature of the preferred version. Essentially the redesign of the mother board accounted for much of the improvement in SQ of the Quad 44.
I'm not interested in the phono stage version, as I quite like my Slee Reflex M, and the ability to change the phono stage easily.
As good as the Slee is (and I rate it), don't presume that it'll match the quality of the valve MM phono stage inside a 25R! ;)
Marco.
The 25R with the phono stage is even more expensive.
If it's not as good as the Slee, then it's money down the drain.
Any thoughts on an Audionote M2 Line?
jandl100
02-07-2014, 06:37
I've heard a fair amount of Audionote kit, individual bits and up to a full AN system that must easily top £50k rrp. And some of it in my own system.
Excuse the generalisations, but they can be informative in a general way :) - It's a distinctive sound - in the lower price ranges, rather euphonic and coloured, but pleasantly so. The AN rooms at Shows, where they generally dem low- to mid- range gear, are always a good place to recuperate for a while - easy-listening, nothing to scare the horses!
Some people love the sound, I guess you just have to try it to find out.
The model ranges are carefully constructed to give you more as you spend more!
I've heard a fair smattering of the more expensive kit - some of it is awesome, some imho is deeply flawed but nonetheless loved by some folk.
I don't think I have specifically heard a M2 pre.
Just imo - ymmv. :)
The 25R with the phono stage is even more expensive.
If it's not as good as the Slee, then it's money down the drain.
Any thoughts on an Audionote M2 Line?
I understand, although if I were a betting man, I'd say that there's a greater than 90% chance that the Croft would outperform the Slee, simply because in my experience valve phono stages, properly implemented, have a magical way with music that few SS designs can match.
I've not heard the M2, but I find most AN kit somewhat 'safe sounding' (as Jerry has alluded to) for my tastes. Their uber-expensive gear can be stunning, but then you're not far off house prices for some of it!
The affordable stuff is all a bit a 'meh', and IMO the phono stages would most likely be outperformed by the phono version of the 25R.
Marco.
Thanks gents.
I'm not risking €700 on a gamble, so the M2 pre can stay where it is.
I think I am going to try some Graham Slee Proprius monoblocks.
They should be interesting.
Bluedroog
14-07-2014, 21:23
You can always have it upgraded to a phono version later of you ever change your mind anyway.
I think I am going to try some Graham Slee Proprius monoblocks.
They should be interesting.
The Proprius have been ordered.
I was undecided between these and another product, but the other manufacturer was not very amiable. Personally, I think he is a bit of a muppet.
The Proprius should be here early August, and I'll be using my 8R as a pre-amp whilst I save up some more cash. This should give Mr Slee time to finish developing his pre-amp.
My rack is slowly being taken over by little silver boxes!
Other options for pre amplifiers with balanced outputs gratefully accepted. I know Cyrus have done a few.
Why a pre-amplifier with balanced outputs? I want to put the amps by the speakers, so a set of DIY balanced interconnexts will do just the job.
The criteria is a good sound, with a remote volume control, and good value for money.
Up to you obviously :)
Unless manufacturers are really incompetent these days, I think much SS stuff should be pretty good, personal taste being the main arbiter. Just because you think one person is a bit of a muppet; his speaker cables are really good and not stupid money either...
By the way, one of these beat a Slee phono stage in a pal's setup...
http://www.njc-audio.co.uk/html/phonopreamp.html
Which Slee phono stage?
I am sure there are better stages out there, and probably better amps too, but the customer pre sales support is superb.
They answered every question I posed with no issues at all.
Stratmangler
20-07-2014, 21:53
By the way, one of these beat a Slee phono stage in a pal's setup...
http://www.njc-audio.co.uk/html/phonopreamp.htmlWhich Slee phono stage?
I am sure there are better stages out there, and probably better amps too, but the customer pre sales support is superb.
They answered every question I posed with no issues at all.
Absolutely Kevin!
DSJRs comment is completely pointless without actually stating which Slee phono stage was "beaten".
Also relevant is which PSU was used, and on top of that the cartridge & stepup (if required) details.
337alant
22-07-2014, 11:54
Have you considered Teddy Pardo Amps ?
http://www.teddypardo.com/
I can thoroughly recommend Avondale audio amps and Mark at Whitchhataudio make a version of the same which are said to be excellent as well, these all work very well with passive or Naim pre amps
http://www.avondaleaudio.com/
http://www.witchhataudio.co.uk/
Alan
DSJRs comment is completely pointless without actually stating which Slee phono stage was "beaten".
Also relevant is which PSU was used, and on top of that the cartridge & stepup (if required) details.
An MM stage it was and one of the middle range ones from memory. I have the emails somewhere, but it's a year ago or more I think since I gleaned the info. - [edit] it was a Reflex M with PSU1...
Stratmangler
22-07-2014, 18:37
Well I have a Reflex M with PSU1, and it's a damned good phono stage.
The other one must really be something to be better.
walpurgis
22-07-2014, 18:52
Well I have a Reflex M with PSU1, and it's a damned good phono stage.
The other one must really be something to be better.
Totally agree, I've got a Reflex M too, it's superb. Funny thing is, I like my ERA GOLD V just as much, even though it's not quite as revealing, It's just so neutral and musical.
Up to you obviously :)
Unless manufacturers are really incompetent these days, I think much SS stuff should be pretty good, personal taste being the main arbiter. Just because you think one person is a bit of a muppet; his speaker cables are really good and not stupid money either...
By the way, one of these beat a Slee phono stage in a pal's setup...
http://www.njc-audio.co.uk/html/phonopreamp.html
This doesn't suprise me at all because ive owned their headphone amp (earlier model) for over 3 years, last year I caught the upgrade bug after subscribing to the HiFi World magazine (fatal). To cut a long story short I ended up buying 4 different amps over a 2 month period based on their glowing reports, I found the amps at £400-800 to be no contest at all & were sent back after a few days. The dearest one I tried was at £1200 which was the most I could fork out for a headphone amp, it came with all sorts of features like crossfeed & balanced connections but after about 5 days of extensive listening I went back to the NJC amp as I really didnt need balanced & on the whole didnt find the amp to be an upgrade, maybe I needed to spend more but that was my limit.
I don't know anything about phono stages as im all digital but when I google NJC it shows their DAC has also been compared on another forum to a DAC over £2000 & their headphone amp like I found easily beats some quite pricey top end models. The photos of the NJC phono stage inside & out all look top grade to me as do the features/specs so it really shouldn't come as any suprise when somebody says it beat another phono stage at £700, if its anything like their amp/dac then it would probably compete with more expensive stages.
hifinutt
29-07-2014, 19:09
I know I said that a Croft was likely to be my way forward, but grow good is an Audionote M2 Line?
There is one that is available 2nd hand.
wow , I have the audionote m-one . its superb and that's coming from an audio research ref 5 ex user!!
incredible vfm , great service and beautiful sound from such a little unit
My Proprius monoblock amps have shipped today.
Here is hoping that they arrive tomorrow, or next week could have some sleepless nights.
We'll, as Jack Torrance would say "They're here!"
So, just a quick word on my initial impressions.
WOW!
My setup:
SL1200, equipped with the Technics specific Funk FX-1200 carrying a AT150MLX, Mike New Bearing, Mk1 Funk Firm platter and a Long Dog Audio PSU
The superb Reflex M
The not so superb Arcam Alpha 8R (currently in disguise as a pre-amplifier)
Proprius mono-blocks sat on the bottom of the Cyrus CLS70 dedicated stands, which funnily enough hold my CLS70 speakers off the floor.
Cabled up with DIY Klotz MC5000 RCA to XLR interconnects, DIY Van Damme Studio (Blue) 6mm speaker cable fitted with Z plugs.
https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3859/14845939237_85ed56aa85_d.jpg
The cables and amps are currently burning in. I have "Love over Gold" playing, and I have never heard it sound so good through my speakers. The amps (at least I think these are making the biggest difference) have really brought the speakers to life. The control, and depth of the bass is superb. The midrange and higher frequencies are sweet, not that the initial hint of sibilance has gone (probably the new Klotz MC5000 "burning in?).
Mark Knopfler now sounds like Mark Knopfler, rather than just a recording of him. ( I have heard that elsewhere recently ;)).
There is real punch and slam to the bass in "private investigations", accompanied by exquisite detail in both the midrange and higher frequencies.
So, these diminutive boxes have replaced a 100W power amp, and at the moment, I can't see me going back.
I have a feeling that the pre-amplifier may be holding things back slightly, but I need to give Mr Slee time to finish his development, and for my bank balance to recover.
Can it really get better than this? I don't think I need it to - for now...
As my listening buddy said to me "These amps really have taken your speakers to infinity, and beyond....."
https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3913/14845948637_7116ff4764_z_d.jpg
https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3887/14845842470_2b18ff614f_z_d.jpg
Sounds like that is really working out for you (and Buzz. I met him at my nephew's 3rd birthday party incidentally ;) ). I'm guessing the monoblocks are some sort of class D design?
Class Ab apparently.
They are still burning in, but I am really impressed so far.
Stratmangler
26-08-2014, 10:33
I'm guessing the monoblocks are some sort of class D design?
No need to guess http://www.gspaudio.co.uk/power-amp.htm
Ah I see, so it uses some type of new-fangled transistor then. Looks pretty good and the price is reasonable too.
Stratmangler
26-08-2014, 12:28
Don't think there's much new about the transistor tbh.
Amcron have been using high current transistors for decades.
The performance is pretty good too.
Stratmangler
26-08-2014, 12:48
The performance is pretty good too.
I had the pleasure of hearing the Proprius driving Stirling Broadcast LS3/5a with AB2 bass helpers earlier on this year in the Graham Slee room at Cranage Hall.
The sound in there was pretty damned good!
http://www.stirlingbroadcast.net/DRS_2558.JPG
It's opening up a bit more now. They have been powered up for three days now.
I should have done this years ago!
Just read the link Stratmangler provided on the Proprius. It makes for very interesting reading. Of the various 'features' the one that strikes me is the high bias - Class A amplification is the way to go and some companies even produce pure Class A amplifiers. You have got a great TT and it deserves an amp (and speakers) to do it justice.
Stratmangler
02-09-2014, 07:10
Just read the link Stratmangler provided on the Proprius. It makes for very interesting reading. Of the various 'features' the one that strikes me is the high bias - Class A amplification is the way to go and some companies even produce pure Class A amplifiers. You have got a great TT and it deserves an amp (and speakers) to do it justice.
The Proprius is a great sounding amp!
I wouldn't get too tied up about it not being Class A - the Proprius designer has a great deal of experience designing equipment for the radio broadcasting industry, and they have 2 criteria his designs certainly meet.
First they must be reliable - radio stations want equipment that can work reliably 24/7 every day of the year.
Second, they must sound great.
Kevin has already got himself a great sounding pair amplifiers!
I'm very happy with my choice.
They seem to be getting better everyday, and even though they are (conservatively?) rated at 26W into 8 Ohms, they sound much better than my 100W Arcam Alpha 10P in all situations, even when going louder than my normal listening levels.
Any thoughts on a Teddy Pardo PR1?
I am still tempted by a Croft 25R though. :scratch:
Decisions, decisions....
Don't Graham Slee offer a pre to go with the monoblocks?
It's currently under development.
There is the Majestic DAC which would do the job quite nicely though.
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